I Hate Gremlins... Bike Sputtering And Cutting Out

Hey all.

I would really love a little help on diagnosing the issues I have been having with my bike. 

The bike: 2004 abs, 30000 miles, stock with PC3 running Cozey's map, o2 sensors removed

There seem to be 2 major issues but they may actually be related.

First issue:

This had never happened before but this year the bike simply dies ever so often. It happened 3 times in the first few weeks then nothing for a month and now it has been doing it more and more in the past 2 weeks.

- It seems to only happen on idle.

- It does not seem to matter whether the bike is warm or cold, whether the gas is full or empty, whether the clutch is pulled in or not and whether the outside temps is cold or hot.

- the fan works fine and opens/closes on target, the battery is new and the charging system seems to be working fine

- when the bike dies the clock is not reset

- when the bike dies I have always been able to restart it immediately and it started right up but in the past weeks it has been dying more and more

- on 2 occasions now, I have had lots of trouble starting it though. Both times I waited a few minutes and then it worked. In both cases, the ABS light was flashing... in both cases it stopped flashing after I turned the bike completely off and back on.

Now this sounds electrical (a short maybe) to me but the fact that it only happens on idle is odd. I read a lot of threads with various similar problems so here is what I have done so far

- checked idle. In other threads, often it was suggested to raise the idle but mine is already at 1300-1350 at idle when hot (as per PC3 on my laptop). It seems to me that raising it higher than that would just be masking another issue no?

- checked, cleaned and filled with dielectric all connections I could access without removing the front and rear cowlings. All connections looked great, blue connector was perfect, main fuse was great, etc

-opened cleaned and filled with dielectric the kill switch. This solved the odd issue of the bike not starting in 1st with the clutch pulled in and the kickstand up but has not resolved the other issues.

Second issue:

This has been going on since I got the bike but seems to be worst now.

The bike sputters when running at about 4000rpm in first. It really feels like it is missing gas and will severely bog down. It's like riding a dying bucking bronco. This is not constant though. Sometimes it will be fine but mostly it will happen when I am steadily in 1st at around 4000rpm (light traffic city riding). Same as the other issue, there do not seem to be anything specific as far as bike temp, air temp, etc that would isolate the issue but it does seem worst when the gas gets low.

The bike also has a pretty abrupt Vtec transition (but once again, not always, sometimes it is super smooth). Adding the PC3 and Cozey's map has honestly not done very much. Maybe I was expecting too much but the bike is pretty much the same with or without the PC3 it seems.

Things I have done:

-running seafoam every once and a while

-that's pretty much it

By the way the bike works really well in all other aspects I can think of.

sooooo any ideas on simple solutions before I start following the shop manual's suggestion for poor low speed performance (ignition timing, valve sync, injectors, etc)?

Much thanks in advance!

additionnal info that probably has nothing to do with anything but you never know:

I did a track day 2 weeks ago and the bike ran flawlessly

one of my headlights burned out this week

Thanks!

Look for loose connections, burnt connections. And check , battery and R\R.

Remember to check your engine run/kill switch. Gunk builds up at the contacts after some time and you can get intermittent connectivity with symptoms very much as you described. A quick on the road fix is to flick the switch on and off quickly, a few times and then try to do an engine re-start. If that,s the problem, open up the switch pod and blast the switch with some electrical cleaner.
A few guys here have been suffering this problem with their bikes lately....

Beck
95 VFR

Look for loose connections, burnt connections. And check , battery and R\R.

As mentionned above, I went over pretty much all connections (including the dreaded blue one and the 3 yellow one), cleaned them and packed them with dielectric grease 2 weeks ago. They all looked fine but I guess a lot can happen in 2 weeks. The battery is a brand new Yuasa. Although it seems fine (bike starts right away, lights do not dim during start, clock does not cut out) I will go through the electrosports flow chart this weekend to make sure it is charging correctly.

Remember to check your engine run/kill switch. Gunk builds up at the contacts after some time and you can get intermittent connectivity with symptoms very much as you described. A quick on the road fix is to flick the switch on and off quickly, a few times and then try to do an engine re-start. If that,s the problem, open up the switch pod and blast the switch with some electrical cleaner.
A few guys here have been suffering this problem with their bikes lately....

Beck
95 VFR

Also done as mentionned above. I opened, cleaned and packed it with dielectric grease after reading in other threads about similar issues. This fixed my "bike won't start if not in neutral" issue but nothing else unfortunately.

Thanks for the suggestions though, keep them coming   :fing02:

This may not be a factor - but di-electric grease is an insulator, not a conductor.   It does get pushed out of the way by the connector blades, but the grease probably doesn't help the connectivity in the switches/connectors if that's causing the dying issue. 

I recently sent my injectors out to R/C engineering for cleaning / balancing, and since re-installing them have not experienced the intermittent stumbling issue (running a PC3 and O2 elims).    It hasn't been long enough to draw a conclusion but it looks promising.  It was surprising how poor the spray patterns were after just 10,000 miles.

I'm not an expert, but I'll throw out a few things that weren't already mentioned above.  Sorry if they're basic - I don't mean to be insulting, so please don't take offense.

-Has the wiring harness recall work been done on your bike?  Any electrical mods on your bike?

-Did you double-check the battery cable connections?  They work loose once in awhile.

-Have you checked the sidestand cut-off switch?  (Might as well check the sidestand bolt while you're at it.)

-Are you sure the PC3 is still hooked up correctly after the battery replacement?

My '04 had a starting problem, intermittent at first and later more prevalent, due to a faulty starter relay in the upper cowl housing.  It's a real pain to get to, but replacing both relays there fixed the problem for good.  (The relays are cheap, too.)  It never killed the engine, but it kept the bike from starting.  If I remember correctly, the fuel pump wouldn't even prime when the relay failed.

I have a PC3 and O2 eliminators in my bike, and I run Cozye's map as well.  I ran the bike for awhile before installing the PC3, and it was a definite improvement.  My bike's VTEC transition was never terrible, but the PC3 smoothed it out very nicely.  I occasionally get a slightly abrupt hit, but it's not the norm, and seems to occur mostly when I haven't been in VTEC territory yet that day, or it's been many miles since a transition.  I don't know why, but it also happens sometimes when it's raining.

As for the 'bogging down' loss of power, it's not unique to your bike.  I've read the same thing here on VFRD before, and I've experienced it while riding in 6th gear at an indicated 60 mph.  The engine just starts losing power for some reason.  This happens even with the PC3 installed.  Blipping the throttle revives it and it goes back to normal.  It's kind of annoying but I've learned to live with it.

Cogswell, on 16 May 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

This may not be a factor - but di-electric grease is an insulator, not a conductor. It does get pushed out of the way by the connector blades, but the grease probably doesn't help the connectivity in the switches/connectors if that's causing the dying issue.

I recently sent my injectors out to R/C engineering for cleaning / balancing, and since re-installing them have not experienced the intermittent stumbling issue (running a PC3 and O2 elims). It hasn't been long enough to draw a conclusion but it looks promising. It was surprising how poor the spray patterns were after just 10,000 miles.

Interestesting. I did read various opinions on dielectric grease but the consesus seems to be that it was a good thing. I'll try cleaning the kill switch again and removing the grease. I did also read a few threads about the injectors, probabaly yours, and even one with a picture of the service workorder and that does look promissing indeed. That may be somthing for the winter though as the turnaround time sucks when your bike is your only vehicule.

TimC, on 17 May 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:

I'm not an expert, but I'll throw out a few things that weren't already mentioned above. Sorry if they're basic - I don't mean to be insulting, so please don't take offense.

-Has the wiring harness recall work been done on your bike? Any electrical mods on your bike?
-Did you double-check the battery cable connections? They work loose once in awhile.
-Have you checked the sidestand cut-off switch? (Might as well check the sidestand bolt while you're at it.)
-Are you sure the PC3 is still hooked up correctly after the battery replacement?

My '04 had a starting problem, intermittent at first and later more prevalent, due to a faulty starter relay in the upper cowl housing. It's a real pain to get to, but replacing both relays there fixed the problem for good. (The relays are cheap, too.) It never killed the engine, but it kept the bike from starting. If I remember correctly, the fuel pump wouldn't even prime when the relay failed.

I have a PC3 and O2 eliminators in my bike, and I run Cozye's map as well. I ran the bike for awhile before installing the PC3, and it was a definite improvement. My bike's VTEC transition was never terrible, but the PC3 smoothed it out very nicely. I occasionally get a slightly abrupt hit, but it's not the norm, and seems to occur mostly when I haven't been in VTEC territory yet that day, or it's been many miles since a transition. I don't know why, but it also happens sometimes when it's raining.

As for the 'bogging down' loss of power, it's not unique to your bike. I've read the same thing here on VFRD before, and I've experienced it while riding in 6th gear at an indicated 60 mph. The engine just starts losing power for some reason. This happens even with the PC3 installed. Blipping the throttle revives it and it goes back to normal. It's kind of annoying but I've learned to live with it.

recall is done
no other electrical mods
checked and charged the battery before my track day (it was pretty much fully charged when I removed it) but haven't since
I forgot to check the side stand switch, good call. I'll have a look.
The PC3 was hooked up correctly before the track day but I haven't checked it since.

The bike has no issue with starting at all (except those 2 times after it died a few times in a row and the ABS light started flashing)

I ran the bike for 2 summers without the pc3 and this is the second summer with it on. It really did not seem to make much of a difference but I'll try removing it. Maybe it's the pc3 that is faulty. I have looked around but haven't found any way to test a pc3. Basically all it says it if the lights come on it is working. When I hook it up to my computer it does seem to work though. I can load maps, I can see my real time idle, etc.

Thanks for the help guys.

All suggestions/help appreciated!


Oh yeah and no one has mentionned anything about the idle.

Am I correct in thinking 1300-13500 is high enough and simply raising it would not be an adequate fix? The bike starts fine when cold (idles around 2000) but the issues start when the idle drops down to 1300 once it is at operating temps.

Also remember that the bike only dies down at idle. If it was something electrical would it not hapen at all times?

+ 1 for checking out the side stand switch. These are subject to exposure to moisture and road grime and I've found it necessary to disassemble, clean and lube...or replace similar switches on other motorcycles to solve similar issues.

 Also, are 6th-gen's equipped with a bank angle sensor designed to shut off the ignition should the bike goes horizontal? I know my '94 ST1100 has one and that Honda issued a recall for replacement of these sensors installed in some early model STs. 

Unless the idle rpm was extremely low, I can't see it being the source of the problem.  I think the manual says to set it at 1250, +/- 100 (or 50) rpm.  (Can't remember exactly which.)  I wouldn't go over 1350-1400 unless it really keeps the engine from dying.  Might be worth a try, but I doubt it will fix the issue.

BTW, I had mine set at 1300-1350 for awhile, but it's back at the factory setting now.

Unless the idle rpm was extremely low, I can't see it being the source of the problem.  I think the manual says to set it at 1250, +/- 100 (or 50) rpm.  (Can't remember exactly which.)  I wouldn't go over 1350-1400 unless it really keeps the engine from dying.  Might be worth a try, but I doubt it will fix the issue.

BTW, I had mine set at 1300-1350 for awhile, but it's back at the factory setting now.

Yeah that's what I thought, thanks for confirming.

It is really odd that it only happens on idle though no? Why would it not happen when I'm cruising down the road?

I just pulled the battery and it was at 12.88v so the charging system does not seem to be faulty but I put it on the charger anyways to start with a fully fully charged battery when I test the stator and RR.

Wiggling the side stand around (up/down/in/out) does not reproduce the issue unfortunately. I really have to bring it down about 3 or inches for the bike to stop and the actual side stand seems very solidly in place. I can push it in and then back in place about an inch but that seems to be normal. There is continuety when the stand is up and wiggling around the switch or anywhere on the wires that lead to the connector does not change that. Anything else to check with the kickstand? The manual is of no more for this ...

ok so the blue connector and 3 yellow connect are in perfect shape.

The main fuse b looks a little toasty but it's hard to tell if that is just the insides showing up against the white plastic or not. 

Opinions?

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could this be a potential answer to my issues?

Welp, you definitely have heat buildup in those connectors,which shouldnt be there.

Yeap something causing the heating issues.

As the heat increase so does the resistance, at higher rpm the R\R is putting out more watts and it is able to overcome the high resistance but at lower rpm it can not because the output is less watts.

Yeap something causing the heating issues.

As the heat increase so does the resistance, at higher rpm the R\R is putting out more watts and it is able to overcome the high resistance but at lower rpm it can not because the output is less watts.

I am incredibly illiterate as far eletrical issues go as I have never really had one (and that is how I have learned so far: when something breaks I learn all I can and then fix it myself) but that does make sense to me.

Are you saying this would explain why the bike only dies while at low revs?

If so do you have a general direction to point me in?

Thanks again guys :)

Yes needs to be replaced and look for more burnt connector. Pull the side panel from the R\R clean the connectors and check for more high heat and melted connectors\wires and remember the compound you install on the connectors could be part of the problem so clean it out and inspect,

It would be helpful if after removing the fuse, if you can also remove the wires from the body of the connector.  That way you can inspect the wires where they fit in to the connector terminals.  Another post someplace recommended not only putting Oxgard on the blades themselves, but also on the base of the connectors where the wires enter to reduce the oxidation going and and to also promote conductivity.  Removing the wires can be maddingly difficult - I use fine dental pics to get down in there and release the tab that retains the blade in the connector body, but it's still tough.  Sometimes it seems like some sort of black science was used to keep those things locked in there - but they will come out. 

One alternative would be to procure another fuse holder  and simply replace the stock one.  If I recall installing the VFRness correctly, it provides a second main fuse and second path to the battery, using 2 20 amp fuses rather than 1 30 amp.   Someone correct me if I don't have that straight. 

The conspiracy theorist in me is almost to the point of believing that Honda made the connectors white because they knew they were going to overheat and the white would show the discoloration and make it visible.  Grrrr . . . :pissed:

I recommend hard wiring them (solder and shrink sleeve tubing) I've also had no problems with my Compufire RR, since I hard wired it.

Thanks for the help guys.

According to this flow chart and a few tests I did my charging system seems fine though so it must be something else:

http://www.electrosp...ing-diagram.pdf

+ to - on battery posts

idle: 13.85v

bike running at 2500rpm: 13.95v

bike running at 5000rpm: 14.05v (this isn't too high but is it to low?)

resistance between yellow wires: ab/ac/bc are all between 0.2 and 0.4

continuity between ground and each yellow wire: none

All other connectors I inspected (that can be accessed without removing the front cowl) seem fine and in perfect shape. All fuses are good (including the actual fuse in the main B fuse holder).

I'm lost.

The conspiracy theorist in me is almost to the point of believing that Honda made the connectors white because they knew they were going to overheat and the white would show the discoloration and make it visible. Grrrr . . . :pissed:

hahaha indeed...

Just ordered a VFRness.

It may not solve everything but it sure should help!

I was going to tell you to check the main fuse but you beat me to it. My main fuse burnt up a few months back and exhibited similar symptoms as yours. mainly dying and running very lean at low revs. i cut mine out and soldered in an inline fuse. also plus one on the dielectric grease being very bad. 

dielectric grease is an insulator and will restrict the flow of current in electrical connection. it will build up heat in the connections and the grease will turn into a corrosive green powder that burns up the connections. 

dont ask me how i know this....

Just ordered a VFRness.

It may not solve everything but it sure should help!

Yeah it will definitely help.  When my charging system started failing I had all kinds problems: bike would die at stop lights, started blowing turning signals bulbs, display  would blink off and on and  very rough idle. 

It would indeed make sense that it was the charging system but don't the numbers bellow show that it isn't?

According to this flow chart and a few tests I did my charging system seems fine though so it must be something else:

http://www.electrosp...ing-diagram.pdf

+ to - on battery posts

idle: 13.85v

bike running at 2500rpm: 13.95v

bike running at 5000rpm: 14.05v (this isn't too high but is it to low?)

resistance between yellow wires: ab/ac/bc are all between 0.2 and 0.4

continuity between ground and each yellow wire: none

All other connectors I inspected (that can be accessed without removing the front cowl) seem fine and in perfect shape. All fuses are good (including the actual fuse in the main B fuse holder).

Are there other tests I can do?

Thanks agin!

I was going to tell you to check the main fuse but you beat me to it. My main fuse burnt up a few months back and exhibited similar symptoms as yours. mainly dying and running very lean at low revs. i cut mine out and soldered in an inline fuse. also plus one on the dielectric grease being very bad. 

dielectric grease is an insulator and will restrict the flow of current in electrical connection. it will build up heat in the connections and the grease will turn into a corrosive green powder that burns up the connections. 

dont ask me how i know this....

The fuse itself is in perfect shape. Are you saying the fact that the holder is a little dark could cause this even if the fuse is ok?

As for the grease, I guess I should have read even more opinions on it before putting it everywhere....  #$%?&*...  Why the hell are there so many completely opposite opinions on the stuff?

"It would indeed make sense that it was the charging system but don't the numbers bellow show that it isn't."

Did have the meter hook to the charging system when it started missing ?

Are you asking if these tests were made while riding the bike at the precise moment when it died?

If so, then no of course.

So what I gather then is that this can be an intermittent issue with my charging system. Would there be any way to isolate the issue so I can fix it before it gets worse? Unfortunately with the flow chart it tells me the charging system is good from the get go. 

Voltage at 2500rpm is higher than 13.5v  >>>> at 5000rpm it is lower than 14.8v  >>>> your charging system is perfectly ok

Have tried uninstalling the PC3 see if it helps?

 No I was wondering if while you were checking the charging system if it started missing ?

sorry I misunderstood that.

No it ran fine during the test, as it almost always does. 

I just removed the PC3 and will go for a ride to see if it makes a difference.

Voltage seems a little low.  As a member that has had probably the worst electrical failure (bike caught on fire and got us the recall) I highly recommend installing a digital volt meter on the dash so you can see what's going on real time.  For instance, if you notice the bike cutting out you see what your voltage is right then...   Believe me, this bike behaves very badly when starved for current...

What ever you do, if you ever lose cylinders don't try to limp it home.  The CAYT will fill with unspent fuel and....  next thing you know, your buddy will telling you "the MFer is on fire... PULL OVER!"

sorry I misunderstood that.

No it ran fine during the test, as it almost always does. 

I just removed the PC3 and will go for a ride to see if it makes a difference.

 Runs better I guess because you have not returned  or   walking   ...

The charging sytem could be completely dead and the bike will run fine, as long as the battery is good at putting out volts and amperage. The 30 amp fuse circuit, will effect running if intermittant connection. Basically, fix what you see in the heated connectors, and pull the big blue block connectors, flush the silicone grease out with wd40. Just need to go through all the connections, but taking the pc out of the circuit, would be a trouble shooting test also. My guess , is you have several poor connections throughout the bike. Really once a connector, sees any sign of damage, its probably going to be iffy going forward, but you can try to clean them up. Also theres a Big Block of green grounds(orange connector), on the left side(if 6th gen) which also could have bad contact. You just going to have to pull all major connectors, and check them out.

One other ground to check is the main chassis ground which is under the rear of the tank on the top of the frame.  Prop up the tank and pull back the rubber flap and you'll see it there.  It's steel threads going in to aluminum, so some Oxgard on that would be a good idea too. 

The charging sytem could be completely dead and the bike will run fine, as long as the battery is good at putting out volts and amperage. The 30 amp fuse circuit, will effect running if intermittant connection. Basically, fix what you see in the heated connectors, and pull the big blue block connectors, flush the silicone grease out with wd40. Just need to go through all the connections, but taking the pc out of the circuit, would be a trouble shooting test also. My guess , is you have several poor connections throughout the bike. Really once a connector, sees any sign of damage, its probably going to be iffy going forward, but you can try to clean them up. Also theres a Big Block of green grounds(orange connector), on the left side(if 6th gen) which also could have bad contact. You just going to have to pull all major connectors, and check them out.

Yeah I agree but he seems think its not the connector(I think it is) I am trying to help him convince himself and not a bad ides to remove the PC3 if nothing else to make sure it has not got a loose connections.

Thanks for the tips. Short ride went perfect in city and highway driving but then again it doesn't always behave like crap either. It hasn't been this smooth in a while though.

I unfortunately have no more time to work on it today but will look at all the connectors, again, tomorrow.

10-4  will  work  it  soon  more  .....

Ok so I finally got back from my family functions.

In order to get home it is a 5 minute highway drive then 15 minutes of city driving. Bike ran perfectly and was very smooth at lower speeds and at the vtec transition. The bike did not die.

That PC3 is starting to look a little guilty...

Yeah I agree but he seems think its not the connector(I think it is) I am trying to help him convince himself and not a bad ides to remove the PC3 if nothing else to make sure it has not got a loose connections.

Switchblade, I do believe you and I must say I am extremely grateful for you and others trying to help me out. So I rechecked all connectors I could access without removing the front cowl. Here is the list of the connections I checked (connectors inside parenthesis are in a rubber cover together):

TAIL:

4 connectors, 2 that go to the tail light and 2 that go to the flashers

SMALL BLACK PLASTIC COVER LEFT:

the faulty main fuse B which we have already seen

small white 1p connector right next to it

SMALL BLACK PLASTIC COVER RIGHT:

1 connector

UNDER THE TANK:

brown 2p

blue 2p

white 2p

fuse block under the rubber flap (thanks Cogswell, had not seen that the first time around): looks brand new and all is tight

LEFT SIDE:

(1 white connector, 1 green connector and the 2 O2 connectors at the bottom )

(red 4p, black 8p, orange 2p in the middle)

white/transparent 6p

black 2p and greay 3p that connect into the (I beleive) ABS module

(big blue and big grey connectors)

big brown, and 2 big black connectors in the forward panel

fuse box

RIGHT SIDE:

(white 4p, white 2p and red 6p)

(grey 10p, white 2p and red 2p)

(white 3p)

(white 4p)

(white 3p yellow wires)

(white 4p, white 2p and red 8p)

big brown and big grey connectors in the forward panel

fuse box

All (except for the main fuse B of course) are in perfect shape, no discoloring, no oxidation, no melting, nothing.

Are there any I missed that you guys can think of? The next step will be to remove the front cowl I guess to access the other ones.

spud786, on 18 May 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:[image: snapback.png]

The charging sytem could be completely dead and the bike will run fine, as long as the battery is good at putting out volts and amperage. The 30 amp fuse circuit, will effect running if intermittant connection. Basically, fix what you see in the heated connectors, and pull the big blue block connectors, flush the silicone grease out with wd40. Just need to go through all the connections, but taking the pc out of the circuit, would be a trouble shooting test also. My guess , is you have several poor connections throughout the bike. Really once a connector, sees any sign of damage, its probably going to be iffy going forward, but you can try to clean them up. Also theres a Big Block of green grounds(orange connector), on the left side(if 6th gen) which also could have bad contact. You just going to have to pull all major connectors, and check them out.

I am quite interested in this as I cannot understand how that is possible. If the charging system is dead would the battery and therefore the bike not eventually (and quite rapidly) die until recharged? How can the charging system be dead and the bike still work (relatively well) and start on a dime day in and day out? Is there anything else or any other way that I can check to test the charging system as like I said earlier, according to the electrosports flow chart, the system is fine.

As for the blue connector, I did do my best with wd40 and electrical connector cleaner to get the grease out. Does anybody have efficent ways of getting dielectric grease out cause neither worked really well.

I did not find the big block of green grounds (orange connector) you were talking about. Does anybody have a pic or a more precise location for it? And yes my bike is a 2004 abs model. 

Thanks again to all!

Ugh.  This sounds very similar to all the troubles I had with mine.

Of course in my case by the time it started doing all this I had basically modified the crap out of the bike and was too tired to diagnose anymore, so I gave up and bought a new bike (ashamedly).  I hate giving up, but in my case I had to realise my limitations and that my free time needed to go back to the kids a bit more.

Ugh.  This sounds very similar to all the troubles I had with mine.

ohhhhhhhh crap the kiss of death! Kaldek saying my bike sounds like his... I've read a bunch of your threads and that is not a good sign.

I will pretend I did not just read that  :goofy:

Please someone chime in with better news :unsure:

Hang in there - you'll find it.   You still have some things to go.  The VFRness doesn't sound like it's arrived yet.  That won't take too long to install and may rule out the 30 amp fuse - that still looks suspect.  Wires can have an insidious way of showing low resistance at the very low current a multimeter puts through it but then when higher amperages go through (and they heat up), so does the resistance.  The connector heats up, resistance goes up, the engine dies - then the connector cools off, and the resistance drops and the cycle starts over. 

On the grounds, especially the one under the tank, be sure to remove the bolt and inspect the ring terminal(s).  Being tight and having a clean appearance isn't always enough.   Dis-similar metals in contact with each other can corrode and when the two are separated, it can be surprising how badly they've oxidized where they meet even though the outward appearance is fine.   With the charging voltage a bit low, the grounds and the toasty 30amp connector may be creating more total resistance in the circuit.  It might not seem like much, but as pointed out previously, irregular or out of spec voltages can play hell with FI systems.  The ECU sends out a reference voltage, usually 5 volts,  to the engine sensors - throttle position, engine temp, intake air temp, etc, and compares that to what it gets back from each to determine what its outputs are - ignition timing, injector pulse duration, etc.  so if voltages are low or fluctuate it can cause issues.   My $.02 would be to install the VFRness, recheck the grounds and apply Oxgard to them (it won't hurt to put a little on the threads of the bolt as well) and <if necessary> replace the R/R (and/or inspect the stator)  if that what it takes to get the charging voltage up to a steady 14.5v.    Once the switches are cleaned of the di-electric grease (especially the stop/run switch), then ride it a while and see if it persists.  If so, eliminate one thing at a time (like the PC) until you find it.   Keep us posted.  :smile:

"In order to get home it is a 5 minute highway drive then 15 minutes of city driving. Bike ran perfectly and was very smooth at lower speeds and at the vtec transition. The bike did not die.

That PC3 is starting to look a little guilty..."

Yeah   could    just  be  a reload(program)  needed   also.

Sorry  man   read  your  post   late  last  night   dont   worry  will   get   there.  I  am  preparing   for  TMac   so  starting  tomorrow  I'll   be  out  of  pocket   but  there  is  a   bank  vault   load   knowledge  here....

ok so the blue connector and 3 yellow connect are in perfect shape.

The main fuse b looks a little toasty but it's hard to tell if that is just the insides showing up against the white plastic or not. 

Opinions?

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could this be a potential answer to my issues?

Could be, or not.

However that contact is in poor shape and basically melting!

I would clean and/or replace it for sure, as it shouldn't heat up like that.

This one will catch fire if you don't do something.

Yeah  and  remember  when it heats  up  it  will be  worst ...

Thanks for the positive comments, it is much appreciated  :biggrin:

I opened it up again today and reinspected the grounds under the tank. They were indeed in very good shape (see pics below). I still sanded everything down a little to improve the contact area though. I do not have any ox-guard but I did order some with the VFRness so I will add that later on.

I also cleaned the kill switch as best I could. I'll ask again, does anyone have an efficient way of removing dielectric grease? WD40 and contact cleaner do not really work all that well unfortunately.

As for the main fuse B, I think we all agree it needs to be addressed. I contacted Joshua (Tightwad) but he did not get back to me yet. Can someone confirm that the VFRness replaces this. From the pics on his site I believe it does but I just want to be sure as if not I will replace it with an automotive type fuse like I have seen done in many other threads.

Now until I do get the VFRness, should I simply solder the 2 wires together as was suggested in other threads? I mean, if there is a fuse there would there not be a reason for that?

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And finally can anyone confirm there is indeed a "big block of green grounds (orange connector)" on the left side of a 6th gen as SPUD indicated? I simply cannot find it. Thanks!

Best  I  remember  you  do  replace  that  fuse  holder  with  the VFRness  but  I would  bypass  the  fuse if  your  trouble shooting  and  not   riding   but  not  to bypass  and  ride .  Still  have  not  figure  out  what's  causing  the  over  heating  problem.  VFRness  will  fix  the  deficiencies  of   the  stock  wiring   and  that  should  solve  the  problem.

indeed the source (if it isn't the main fuse B having a bad connection), is still unknown.

If this can help with diagnostics, I let the bike run for a while and found out the yellow wires become quite hot. This would mean higher resistance (ie not good) right?

I retested the stator and still got about 0.2 on between each pair or yellow wires and no continuity between each wire and ground which according to post 13 of this thread would mean a bad RR, which would indeed explain the heat on the wires. Opinions on this?

Maybe I will just run through the electrosports flow chart and disregard the first portion that tells me the charging system is fine.

And now, just to make this all a little more fun, there is a small buzzing sound behing the dash after the bike has been running for a few minutes. I found a few threads about this but they all point to the ground on the blue connector. Problem is, my connector is cold and in perfect shape and the recall has been done so I can't bypass the ground on the connector as it is only there on one side.

ugghhhh....

Not meaning to   :beatdeadhorse: , but from the pics it looks like maybe the ground you're referring to is the one with multiple green wires to it that has the bolt oriented horizontally at the green arrow . . (see pic below - P.O.V. taken from just above the shift lever).  The other ground is the main chassis ground further back under the tank and has a black wire (yellow arrow) with the bolt oriented vertically.  If that one is loose / has resistance, the current from the R/R is looking for a path home back to the battery, but can't make it past the connection, so it starts looking for another way back.  That's where it can work it's way in to other systems and cause havoc.  I've seen really weird electrical problems happen on cars with poor grounds that cleared up immediately once the proper grounding was restored.  The 5v reference voltage the ECU sends out may come back to the ECU as 4.8v, 4.7v, 4.6v,  etc, so voltage changes as small as 1/10v make a difference in what the ECU does and how well the engine runs (or doesn't) and any stray voltage muscling its way in disrupts what the ECU thinks it's seeing.  So if you can get the charging system to a good 14.5v continuously, then you know for sure the current from the R/R has a clear path back to ground and shouldn't be causing any stray problems.  Even if it's not the grounds causing the slightly low charging voltage (ends up being the R/R or stator or both), if you diagnose and cure those, then you've gotten ahead of another common problem.  If you're at 30,000 miles on your stator, it could be suspect.  My 5th gen stator looked crispy at just 7,500 miles though it still worked fine.   The yellow wires from the stator shouldn't be getting all that hot (untouchable), so on those try the Oxgard when you receive it and see if that changes that situation.  If not, that's heading in the wrong direction and maybe either hardwiring or replacing the connector should be done.   In the pic, the red arrow is the cable from the VFRness you'll be installing once it arrives.  

On the di-electric grease, it's silicone based.  The wiki explains its function and the the problems it causes when in contact with the metal blades in a connector.  Its intended function is to seal out moisture and lubricate the boot or body of the connector or in some cases to prevent arcing.   The other link is one I found on how to remove silicone grease from a surface.  One thing that could be tried on the connector blades, both male and female, would be to take a Q-tip and use a single edged razor blade to shave it flat - sort of spatula shaped, and use it along with the recommended solution to scrub the metal blades.  Then use some compressed air to blow the moisture out.  Once clean, coat them with Oxgard and re-assemble.  The switch housing probably doesn't need to be completely free of it - just so that it doesn't get on the metal contacts. 

http://en.wikipedia....electric_grease

http://www.tech-faq....one-grease.html

This may end up being somewhat time consuming, (and no doubt frustrating), but you'll get it.  Just keep at it. 

[image: DSC04366_zps936d361b.jpg]

The orange connector of green grounds, is exactly on the opposite side of the bike (of the ecm), right wear the left side panel connects to the front cowl ( up high).

And  next year Humalogaddict  we expect  you  to  start answering  some  these  post  !!!!

Not meaning to   :beatdeadhorse: , but from the pics it looks like maybe the ground you're referring to is the one with multiple green wires to it that has the bolt oriented horizontally at the green arrow . . (see pic below - P.O.V. taken from just above the shift lever).  The other ground is the main chassis ground further back under the tank and has a black wire (yellow arrow) with the bolt oriented vertically.  If that one is loose / has resistance, the current from the R/R is looking for a path home back to the battery, but can't make it past the connection, so it starts looking for another way back.  That's where it can work it's way in to other systems and cause havoc.  I've seen really weird electrical problems happen on cars with poor grounds that cleared up immediately once the proper grounding was restored.  The 5v reference voltage the ECU sends out may come back to the ECU as 4.8v, 4.7v, 4.6v,  etc, so voltage changes as small as 1/10v make a difference in what the ECU does and how well the engine runs (or doesn't) and any stray voltage muscling its way in disrupts what the ECU thinks it's seeing.  So if you can get the charging system to a good 14.5v continuously, then you know for sure the current from the R/R has a clear path back to ground and shouldn't be causing any stray problems.  Even if it's not the grounds causing the slightly low charging voltage (ends up being the R/R or stator or both), if you diagnose and cure those, then you've gotten ahead of another common problem.  If you're at 30,000 miles on your stator, it could be suspect.  My 5th gen stator looked crispy at just 7,500 miles though it still worked fine.   The yellow wires from the stator shouldn't be getting all that hot (untouchable), so on those try the Oxgard when you receive it and see if that changes that situation.  If not, that's heading in the wrong direction and maybe either hardwiring or replacing the connector should be done.   In the pic, the red arrow is the cable from the VFRness you'll be installing once it arrives.  

On the di-electric grease, it's silicone based.  The wiki explains its function and the the problems it causes when in contact with the metal blades in a connector.  Its intended function is to seal out moisture and lubricate the boot or body of the connector or in some cases to prevent arcing.   The other link is one I found on how to remove silicone grease from a surface.  One thing that could be tried on the connector blades, both male and female, would be to take a Q-tip and use a single edged razor blade to shave it flat - sort of spatula shaped, and use it along with the recommended solution to scrub the metal blades.  Then use some compressed air to blow the moisture out.  Once clean, coat them with Oxgard and re-assemble.  The switch housing probably doesn't need to be completely free of it - just so that it doesn't get on the metal contacts. 

http://en.wikipedia....electric_grease

http://www.tech-faq....one-grease.html

This may end up being somewhat time consuming, (and no doubt frustrating), but you'll get it.  Just keep at it. 

[image: DSC04366_zps936d361b.jpg]

Awesome. Please, beat away on that horse :goofy:

The ground I located, inspected and cleaned was indeed the green arrow horizontal bolt one. I had not noticed the yellow arrow vertical one and will get on it. Those explanations on how the ECU and current works were extremely clear and helpfull by the way, thanks!

I think I will also hardwire the stator/rr connection to eliminate that as a potential culprit. The connector inside and out is in perfect condition, for now, but the wires (on both sides of the connector) and the connector itself got pretty hot after a few minutes. Let's hope it was just the resistance created by the connector and not the stator and/or RR.

The dielectric grease removal will indeed be a pain in the ass but I will get on it... stupid move on my part it seems. Oh well, live and learn...

The orange connector of green grounds, is exactly on the opposite side of the bike (of the ecm), right wear the left side panel connects to the front cowl ( up high).

Thanks for the specification. I just found this pic in another thread that shows it but I have never seen that connector. I will have to go digging as it is not there (sticking out of the same rubber sleave as the blue and the grey connectors) on my bike. I will have to unwrap a few things I think.

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And  next year Humalogaddict  we expect  you  to  start answering  some  these  post  !!!!

1000% :tour:   I am always glad to give back and I do in threads where I know I can help. As stated previously, I have no mechanical training but decided years ago that I would fix my own bikes and always have managed to do so. It just sems harder on my VFR then it did on my older Hondas... When something breaks, I learn how it works with the help of awesome folks like you guys and fix it. Until something breaks though I only have basic knowledge on that issue. I do try to read up on as many threads as possible to get ahead of various issues... slowly but surely.

Any    updates     ?

It's been raining pretty much every single frikking day for the past week so not much progress unfortunately as I could not work on it but I have used the bike a bunch of times and it has been acting perfectly... go figure. 

I did locate and clean the one big black wire ground under the seat mentionned earlier.

My VFRness is waiting for me at my US shipping address just across the border so I should be able to go get it on Tuesday and install it. 

I will be replacing my main fuse B with an automative type one.

Haven't decided if I will replace and solder or not the yellow wires on a terminal strip.

Still have not been able to locate the damn orange connector wirth a whole bunch of green grounds though (???). Does it connect to anything? I do not even see it on the wiring diagram...

Thanks for checking up on me  :biggrin:

10-4  I had  just  got  back  from  TMac . . . . . .

The orange connector is under the left side fairing, near the blue connector (maybe even in the same rubber protector)-in front of the radiator, below the frame..  It is not a typical two-sided connector.  All the wires go in on the same side. 

The orange connector is under the left side fairing, near the blue connector (maybe even in the same rubber protector)-in front of the radiator, below the frame..  It is not a typical two-sided connector.  All the wires go in on the same side. 

That's the thing, it's nowhere on the left (or right) side.

I guess I'll have to take the front cowl off to see if the PO tucked it under there for some reason. Am I crazy to not see it on the wiring diagram either?

In the manual I bought (from the USA), there are 2 diagrams, one is "standard type" (the one that appears in the pdf version in the download section here) and one that is "ABS type (except USA type)" that does not appear in the pdf version. My bike is a Canadian ABS, is it possible that that orange connector does not exist? Can any Canadians confirm this is or isn't the case?

Here is the diagram:

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There has to be a ABS USA diagram as the "standard type" one does not have any ABS components on it. And since it's not in my manual I guess I may have bought a Canadian manual on eBay from someone in the USA... funny. 

Thanks!

Well, things seem perfect now for the charging system.....  :woohoo:

Voltage with bike off: 13.07

Voltage at idle: 14.62 (vs 13.85 before)

Voltage at 5000 rpm: 14.66 (vs 14.05 before)

I hate it when going through old threads when there is no conclusion so here it is.

Things I have done:

I cleaned, sanded and added ox-guard to the two grounds (under the seat and on the left side of the seat near the tank hinge)

I went around all connectors and cleaned out the dielectric as best I could.

I cut out the main fuse B and got rid of that small white useless connector (I still do not understand why it is there), yikes it was getting worst and worst....

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And the fuse was starting to melt....

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I got a 12 gauge automotive type fuse holder and soldered it directly in. Shrinktube and electrical wire later, it was all in place.

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Next on the list was doing something about the very hot yellow wires from the stator to the RR. The white connector was still in good shape but I decided to take it out of the equation by cutting it out. This of course left me with a gap so I added about 4 inches of 12 gauge wiring to the stator side. This connection was soldered then shrinktubed. 

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On the end of those wires and on the RR side, I crimped and soldered bullet connectors as they offer a very large contact area.

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After putting oxguard on the male side connectors, they were all shrinktubed. I then wrapped the whole thing up in electrical tape to tiddy it up. Wires are no longer hot, they are slightly warm which seems normal considering where they are located.

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Today I also installed the VFRness and all seems perfect as per the numbers above.

Now, does this explain why the bike was doing what it was doing at first. I don't know but it can't be a bad thing that's for sure.

All symptoms stopped when I removed the PC3 so now that I know the electrical system is in good shape, I will try to put it back in to see if it starts behaving like crap again or not.

Thank you very very much for those who have helped. It is truly greatly appreciated.

:fing02:   :fing02:   :fing02:   :fing02:   :fing02:   :fing02:

Sweet!  Those charging numbers are perfect.   :cheerleader:    Thanks for closing this thread.  Hopefully your troubles are behind you! 

Excellent   job    .....