Castrol 03166 Actevo Xtra 10W-40 4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil
Anyone ever use this stuff? Found on Amazon Prime for $58 for 3 gallons (free shipping, no tax in OK)
Or this stuff? $10 bucks a quart, same as Mobil 1 4T
EDIT: Above Castrol is semi-synthetic. Full synthetic Castrol is this:
Much better price than Mobil 1 4T... $7.80 / quart
The Castrol says "part synthetic". I wouldn't as you can get full synth Rotella for close to the same price.
Never heard of the 2nd one you listed.
Honestly, if you have the dough, Amsoil.
If you want the cheaper option, Rotella.
Used Rotella T6 full syn for quite a while and don't have any concerns with it. Was just wanting to try something different.
The Castrol full syn I added to my post is only $7.80 / qt. Rotella T6 would be about $5 / qt I think at Walmart.
And what is the difference between JASO MA, and MA-2?
2thdrAnd what is the difference between JASO MA, and MA-2?
Here's one answer... http://www.whitedogbikes.com/whitedogblog/choosing-the-right-motorbike-oil-what-does-jaso-and-jaso-ma2-mean/
Good info...looks like the MA-2 is the updated version of MA put out in 2006. Interesting thing is that there is no real testing going on to claim these certifications. This website claims the only thing you can do is buy the very expensive oil trusting them more than the manufacturers of the cheap stuff. In essence they say that no way, no how is $20 / 4 litres of Rotella T6 a truly JASO MA-2 oil. Confusing to say the least...
I've been using the Castrol Semi-Sythetic for the past 2 years in both my bikes and have no complaints. Seems to be slightly better than Rotella in my opinion. Any major brand oil (syntheic or conventional) will be ok assuming you change it frequently enough. I personally think that the marginal benefit of full synthetic does not justify the huge increase in cost. I tend to chain oil every 4000 miles or so and change the filter on every other oil change.
Rollin
2thdrUsed Rotella T6 full syn for quite a while and don't have any concerns with it. Was just wanting to try something different.
^^THIS^^
If it is fine, then the only difference you will notice by changing to something else is probably not going to be an improvement.
If it wasn't oil, I'd say go exploring, but I doubt that there's anything new to be discovered here.
And what is the whitedogbikes blog's authority to know that Rotella is not as good as the expensive stuff?
baby oil!! fresh squeezed! make a sandwich with the rest!
AndyBAnd what is the whitedogbikes blog's authority to know that Rotella is not as good as the expensive stuff?
That's a good question. It's unfortunate that there is not an unbiased clearing house for information about real facts of engine wear, etc. comparing all the different moto oils out there. I would think that Moto GP race teams and SBK race teams would be the most "in the know" groups out there. I took some track instruction from a small time, but successful road racer named Mike Sullivan. He swore by Silkolene oil...of course they were a sponsor of his. What is it about Silkolene Pro 4 synthetic oil that makes it worth $17 a litre? I don't know, but quite a few race teams think it is. Now, is it worth $17 a litre to me when I run my bike at 8-10k rpm for part of the day when I ride the twisty AR backroads? Probably not...I'm not running at 14-20k rpm constantly like the pros do. Would I still like that kind of protection for my engine so it will hopefully run thousands and thousands of miles? Sure! Just depends if I want to pay for it I guess.
2thdrGood info...looks like the MA-2 is the updated version of MA put out in 2006. Interesting thing is that there is no real testing going on to claim these certifications. This website claims the only thing you can do is buy the very expensive oil trusting them more than the manufacturers of the cheap stuff. In essence they say that no way, no how is $20 / 4 litres of Rotella T6 a truly JASO MA-2 oil. Confusing to say the least...
If it's a 40 weight, as in 10w or 15w versions, I wouldn't be concerned with the JASO rating at all. The only thing I concern myself with is if it's energy conserving (a no no in wet clutches as I'm sure you know very well).
As far as trust......I've always sent in lab samples to Blackstone Labs to verify any of the claims. I've done this on every bike for the past decade as well as my cages over the years. I've tested dino, semi-synth, and full synths. Mobil 1, Rotella T, Amsoil, Redline, Motul, Royal Purple, Castrol, Repsol.....to make a long story short, Amsoil has held up the best, giving the engines the best protection, and for the longest intervals, and I'm so convinced of that after testing it so many times that I run it in everything that I pay to do oil changes in, bikes, scooter, even my lawn equipment. I'm also quite fond of Rotella Synth as it's easy to locate (chinamart stocks it) although it doesn't have as long of intervals as Amsoil.
Try what you like, but I wouldn't trust anyone unless they have lab sheets from a company that analyzes oil. This includes myself and my info above as the only way you'll believe it is to do it yourself. I wish I could give you my lab sheets for my bikes over the last 10 years but I always print them off, sharpie out my personal data and give it along with my maintenance records to the buyer when I sell my bikes/cages. Both my current bikes are relatively new so I won't start sending in samples for a few k yet.
Ideally, to save money and time, the lab samples will give you an ideal interval to change and will tell you the quality of the oil you are using. I got to the point with my previous bikes that I only needed to change the oil once a year with a filter swap in between (with some top off oil to replace what I lost with the filter change). Amsoil was good up to 8-10k miles depending on what kind of riding I was doing. If I did a track day I'd change it sooner.
Cost/performance, you are going to really a have a hard time beating Rotella T.
Thanks for sharing that information Leanit...as you have found out, experience wins out over all the press and talk anyone can muster (including unsubstantiated opinions!). Lab testing is the only way to be sure if your oil has maintained grade after X number of miles.
I too appreciate the lab info shared. I am curious tho, as to how well Mobil 1 did in your experience 'leanit'? Reason being that's what I run in my VFR and XR. My RSV presently has Amsoil in her on the advice of a friend, but I felt no real 'seat of the pants' improvement over the M1 that I had in her previously, and I believe that Amsoil is more $$ than Mobil 1?
Thx,
ACE
luvtoleanit The only thing I concern myself with is if it's energy conserving (a no no in wet clutches as I'm sure you know very well).
Negative... Technically speaking Energy Conserving oil can not defeat
a wet clutch in good working order... whats confusing the issue is the
fact that all motorcycle wet clutches will reach a point in their life
and start to slip... no one complains about clutch slip when new...
but on about the 27K range is when enough contaminants build up to
point where the clutch begins to loose its grip during WFO (Wide
Fooking Open)throttle only... in error you can blame the oil but its
really the clutch...
I've been using mostly 30wt oils certified Energy Conserving since 98
in Mr.RC45 with no clutch slipping due to oil being certified 10%
slipperier than non EC oil... and it's a bike with a tall first gear
good for 90mph that's known to incinerate clutch plates...
[image: gallery_3131_51_96453.jpg]
Nearly all oil is excellent in todays world.
Service classification is the main thing. API, american petrolum institute service grade.
AS bls said energy conserving oil isnt what makes the clutch slip. IT IS FRICTION MODIFIERS THAT CAN MAKE CLUTCH SLIPPAGE. It certainly wont help if your clutch has a good number of miles.
Also remember the W in say 10w-40 is not weight. The W means winter.
Semi synthetic doesnt mean half and half. It can be 99% dino and 1% synthetic, and be called semi syn.
IMHO if someone uses a certain oil and there engine doesnt blow up they consider it good. I am guilty too. If it works it is human nature to continue using it.
As stated above the only real ananlysis is to send the oil to a lab, and tear the engine down to measure wear.
I tell my customers to use a good brand and stick with it, it's that simple.
2thdrCastrol 03166 Actevo Xtra 10W-40 4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil
Anyone ever use this stuff? Found on Amazon Prime for $58 for 3 gallons (free shipping, no tax in OK)
Knowing what your buying thats in the oil versus the cost is the only way to make a good judgement...
Castrol Actevo 10W40 MC specific versus 100% synthetic Mobil 1 0 40 car oil
MOLY:...........................................0....................................................72
PHOSPHOROUS:......................768..................................................808
ZINC:....................................... 966..................................................976
Viscosity @ 212F................. 15.24..................................................14.3
Cost................................$58 3 Gal...................$22 5 quart jug Walmart
soichiroNearly all oil is excellent in todays world.
Service classification is the main thing. API, american petrolum institute service grade.
AS bls said energy conserving oil isnt what makes the clutch slip. IT IS FRICTION MODIFIERS THAT CAN MAKE CLUTCH SLIPPAGE. It certainly wont help if your clutch has a good number of miles.
Also remember the W in say 10w-40 is not weight. The W means winter.
Semi synthetic doesnt mean half and half. It can be 99% dino and 1% synthetic, and be called semi syn.
IMHO if someone uses a certain oil and there engine doesnt blow up they consider it good. I am guilty too. If it works it is human nature to continue using it.
As stated above the only real ananlysis is to send the oil to a lab, and tear the engine down to measure wear.
I tell my customers to use a good brand and stick with it, it's that simple.
Those friction modifiers are ever present in energy conserving oil which is why I skip it altogether. But your point, was what, I was trying to say.
BusyLittleShop2thdrCastrol 03166 Actevo Xtra 10W-40 4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil
Anyone ever use this stuff? Found on Amazon Prime for $58 for 3 gallons (free shipping, no tax in OK)
Knowing what your buying thats in the oil versus the cost is the only way to make a good judgement...
Castrol Actevo 10W40 MC specific versus 100% synthetic Mobil 1 0 40 car oil
MOLY:...........................................0....................................................72
PHOSPHOROUS:......................768..................................................808
ZINC:....................................... 966..................................................976
Viscosity @ 212F................. 15.24..................................................14.3
Cost................................$58 3 Gal...................$22 5 quart jug Walmart
So, from this info it looks like it is desirable to have the Moly-free Castrol, but the Mobil 1 is less viscous at operating temp. Larry I thought you were very concerned with viscosity at starting temps?
IIRC moly (molybdenum) is no good for wet clutches.
BLS, correct me if thats wrong.
2thdrSo, from this info it looks like it is desirable to have the Moly-free Castrol, but the Mobil 1 is less viscous at operating temp. Larry I thought you were very concerned with viscosity at starting temps?
Moly is an anti wear additive and in the interest of longevity Moly is
more desirable than Moly free...
I'm very concerned with viscosity at start temps... thats why I using
0-30 Mobil 1 in Mr.RC45 and thats why I recommend Mobil 0-40 for you
because between 10-40 5-40 and 0-40 the 0-40 will reach your bearings
first during critical start up where most of the engine wear occurs...
Oil Type......Viscosity @ 75° F start up... Viscosity @ 212° F operating temps
Straight 30.......250.................10
10W-30............100.................10
0W-30..............56.................10
Straight 10........30..................6
soichiroIIRC moly (molybdenum) is no good for wet clutches.
BLS, correct me if thats wrong.
Moly (molybdenum) is an anti wear additive and will not defeat a wet clutch in good working order the
proof of that is in Honda HP4 oil with 80 PPM Moly... if Moly were no good then Honda's engineers
would have called for its removal from the companies own line of oil... I don't know who or were the
Moly myth started...
Moly content of some of the major oils...
[image: post-3131-0-37169200-1370999764.gif]
under 200 ppm of moly, is a non event with any oil, but there are mc oils like motul and Redline which have 500 ppm moly or more Claiming Jaso MA, and this is were border line clutch issues can arise. I also dont know if there are variances in Moly application, to where it wont readily cause issue in the clutch with MC oils, verses a Moly in a car oil. I have had mild slippage deveope on another bike with redline car oil. Ive never tried their MC oil. But 100ppm or 200 ppm of moly is REALLY nothing.
luvtoleanitThose friction modifiers are ever present in energy conserving oil which is why I skip it altogether. But your point, was what, I was trying to say.
Friction Modifiers are Antiwear: These are perhaps the most- discussed
additives, which serve to protect the engine from metal-to-metal wear.
Common antiwear additives are phosphorous and zinc. Other antiwear
additives include friction modifiers like molybdenum disulphide (or
moly). are we going to say yes Phosphorous and Zinc and no to Moly???
spud786under 200 ppm of moly, is a non event with any oil, but there are mc oils like motul and Redline which have 500 ppm moly or more Claiming Jaso MA, and this is were border line clutch issues can arise. I also dont know if there are variances in Moly application, to where it wont readily cause issue in the clutch with MC oils, verses a Moly in a car oil. I have had mild slippage deveope on another bike with redline car oil. Ive never tried their MC oil. But 100ppm or 200 ppm of moly is REALLY nothing.
No one complains about Clutch slip when the bike is new... its around the 27K mark that I start
hearing complaints from customers... I advise them to keep the oil and service the clutch...
Clutch plates don't wear out rather they start to slip because they
get glazed over and contaminated...
It's a fact that all motorcycle wet clutches will reach a point in
their life and begin slipping... the first signs happen during WFO
throttle (Wide Fooking Open)... Don't be surprised if you tear a part
the clutch pack and note that the plate thickness is well within
specifications listed in the shop manual... What you will notice is
the glazed appearance on the surface on the friction plates...
You can ante up $240.00 in new clutch parts or you have the option of
investing in some sweat equity... deglazing clutch plates ain't
nothing new... no sir... back in the 70s it use to be part of every
savvy rider's maintenance plan... and for some reason that all change
during the 90s... why fix what you can buy new is the what you hear
now a days... but if your interested in making your clutch bite good
as new then roll up your sleeves and read on... if not get back on the
couch...
Inspect the friction plates for glazing... make sure you have plenty
of material to work with... the VFR manual states clutch thickness
in thousands of an inch... I don't a manual handy or I'd list the numbers
First removed the contaminants with something like Acetone... then lay
each plate over a 600 grit black dry emory paper and rotate in a
circle... you're just busting the glaze... don't get carried away
remove too much material... You should end up with a friction plate
looks dull like a new one as opposed to a shinny glazed one... recheck
thickness...
Next check the pressure plates for bluing caused by localized heat...
make sure they are not warped... the manual does not state a thickness
range... now removed the contaminants with something like Acetone
and wire wheeled them to erased the blue and also to generally scuff
up the surface... you should end up with a dull surface free of Blue
marks...
Differnet clutches on different bikes , clutch strength varies(even brand new). Depending on how slick the oil is, can cause issues, with particular model.
One time on my drz I was running redline oil, I thought i was imagining things on straight Flat cruising at 60 mph, felt like clutch would slightly release and recatch at times. It was so mild I thought it was in me head(2 weeks of this). I finally took it to a big uphill mountain and burned through the gears, hit top gear and slip slip, yeah its the clutch.
Dumped the redline, installed a known good clutch oil(rotella) and went back and restested , no more issue. Should I spend $200 on a Reinforced beefed up clutch to run redline, or just use a Known good clutch oil.
I know the easy answer.
I think I've used mostly safe choices for oil and filters in my VFR. I bought it from the original owner at 2.5 years old and 4200 miles. That was almost 7 years and 64k miles ago, and she's still running strong. Also, to date I've noticed zero clutch slippage. I'm not sure if that's unusual at 68k miles, but I'm happy regardless. I change my oil every 3000 to 4000 miles (and a bit longer when running full synthetic).
Here is a list of the oils I've used in that time, pretty much chronologically:
-Valvoline conventional 10W-40
-Valvoline DuraBlend (synthetic/conventional) 10W-40
-Mobil 1 10W-40 Racing 4T
-Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40
-Mobil 1 15W-50
-Rotella T 15W-40 (conventional)
As for oil filters, I change it every time I change my oil. I buy good filters now, and usually buy a couple at a time - especially if they're on sale.
Here is a list of the filters I've used:
-Fram PH6607 (cheap but was effective - will never use again now that I know it's the worst option)
-Wal-Mart SuperTech ST7137 (was made by Champion, but is no longer available)
-Bosch 3300 (apparently made by Champion)
-Purolator PureONE PL14612
-Mobil M1-108 (also apparently made by Champion)
-K&N KN-204
I am absolutely no expert on motor oils, but what I have used has not seemed to hurt my VFR - even the conventional automobile oil I used for a couple years. Going forward I'm more likely to use full synthetic most of the time, as I don't mind the higher cost. When using cheaper conventional or blended oil, however, I simply change it out sooner, and use a good filter each time no matter what oil I'm running.
NOTE: On the advice of a couple fellow VFRD members, I used the slightly heavier oils listed above in an attempt to alleviate front cam chain tensioner noise. It seems to work once the bike has been at its normally operating temperature for a few minutes. The front CCT has been clacking for quite awhile now. It usually doesn't bother me much (thanks to ear plugs), but sometimes it's very annoying. Though I haven't had a mechanical problem (breakdown) due to the front CCT, I am planning to finally fix it this off-season.
BLS is right on the money about clutch plate glaze.
As he stated riders with many years under their belt de-glazed at least the friction plates, as part of normal maintenance and kept rolling.
I raced mx for 2 decades and this was a very common practice. As long as the thickness is in spec all will be good.
BLS, you are also right about moly in some of hondas own oil. Honda oil is offered with or without moly. I should of known that.
I actually use honda gn-4 dino oil and honda auto filter. I'm a honda auto tech so I get the filters for $5 or so. I have used the honda auto filter since my 2nd oil change and now have 70k plus miles. It must be fine, lol.
I have taken a honda bike filter and a honda hybrid filter apart and ck,ed specs. They are identical in nearly everyway except color.
I can"t remeMber why honda oil is offered with or without moly.
ARE WE REALLY STILL TALKING ABOUT OIL!!!!!!!!!! HOW DID I GET SUCKED IN AGAIN, LOL, LITERALLY!
Oil threads are the equivalent of a car accident in the opposite lanes of the freeway. Everyone slows down to look, even though they know they shouldn't. We just can't help ourselves. :laugh:
I think when people are as passionate about their motorcycles as we are, that we're always searching for the best (and most cost effective) way to treat our bikes right. Especially since many of us put thousands of miles on them per year and keep them several years. It would be different if we were punks who expected to trash our Gixxers within a couple seasons.
We care too much about our bikes to abuse them or even to let them suffer from poor maintenance, so we're continually interested in getting the best information possible to make them run well and last forever. :fing02:
spud786Differnet clutches on different bikes , clutch strength varies(even brand new). Depending on how slick the oil is, can cause issues, with particular model.
One time on my drz I was running redline oil, I thought i was imagining things on straight Flat cruising at 60 mph, felt like clutch would slightly release and recatch at times. It was so mild I thought it was in me head(2 weeks of this). I finally took it to a big uphill mountain and burned through the gears, hit top gear and slip slip, yeah its the clutch.
Dumped the redline, installed a known good clutch oil(rotella) and went back and restested , no more issue. Should I spend $200 on a Reinforced beefed up clutch to run redline, or just use a Known good clutch oil.
I know the easy answer.
Both Red Line and Rotella have only 10% of the suspect additives...
your DRZ clutch was not engineered to operate within a slim 10% margin
of slipping... so understanding how robust Suzuki designed the clutch
a owner should always take the easy route and service the clutch
plates before dumping perfectly good oil...
What about Slick 50.
Sorry had to go there.
:goofy:
:goofy:
Not to go to far off topic but I tried Larry's (BLS) advice to try the M1 0W-30 in my 4th gen for the last two winters here and was very pleased with its performance. I'm about ready to do the summer oil change and was going to use the old reliable Rotella 10-40 syn but based on Larry's endorsement of the M1 0W-40 will probably try that. Air temps on the way to work are 65-70F and 95-100+F on the way home. Maybe Larry will respond if that is a good match or not.
rangemasterNot to go to far off topic but I tried Larry's (BLS) advice to try the M1 0W-30 in my 4th gen for the last two winters here and was very pleased with its performance. I'm about ready to do the summer oil change and was going to use the old reliable Rotella 10-40 syn but based on Larry's endorsement of the M1 0W-40 will probably try that. Air temps on the way to work are 65-70F and 95-100+F on the way home. Maybe Larry will respond if that is a good match or not.
Have you shopped for the Mobil 1 0W-40 at Walmart or other yet? Is it readily available and how much are they getting for it?
I don't get it. Every time I go change the oil it's dirty. I'm pretty sure I put clean oil in there. I think someone keeps putting junk in my oil to make it dirty and make my bike not run as well. It's very annoying having to keep putting clean oil in there to make everything feel right.
YoshiHNSI don't get it. Every time I go change the oil it's dirty. I'm pretty sure I put clean oil in there. I think someone keeps putting junk in my oil to make it dirty and make my bike not run as well. It's very annoying having to keep putting clean oil in there to make everything feel right.
LOL - That's one reason I'm happy with the 0w-30 M1, with about 3500 miles on it of winter commuting it still looks almost new.
YoshiHNSI don't get it. Every time I go change the oil it's dirty. I'm pretty sure I put clean oil in there. I think someone keeps putting junk in my oil to make it dirty and make my bike not run as well. It's very annoying having to keep putting clean oil in there to make everything feel right.
LOL, good one.
I have customers ask all the time, "WHAT DID MY OIL LOOK LIKE"?
Same answer everytime, BLACK!!!!!
Of course i'm talking honda autos. Bike oil at 3k miles looks nothing like car oil at 3k miles. Both are still very much darker than when it was poured out of the bottle.
CogswellOil threads are the equivalent of a car accident in the opposite lanes of the freeway. Everyone slows down to look, even though they know they shouldn't. We just can't help ourselves. :laugh:
Oil threads can get so bad that the NSA has stopped listening to them...
rangemasterNot to go to far off topic but I tried Larry's (BLS) advice to try the M1 0W-30 in my 4th gen for the last two winters here and was very pleased with its performance. I'm about ready to do the summer oil change and was going to use the old reliable Rotella 10-40 syn but based on Larry's endorsement of the M1 0W-40 will probably try that. Air temps on the way to work are 65-70F and 95-100+F on the way home. Maybe Larry will respond if that is a good match or not.
Good news thanks for posting... I'm going to start my own Oil Thread to funnel everyone's mileage and oil choice experience...
Zero weight oil is like a new and improved tire... it keeps our bikes
current which is good for us... so either 0 30 or 0 40 will be a good
match... the 30 will flow faster through your engine than the 40 and
anytime you flow more oil past the bearings means greater metal to
metal separation and the quicker the heat draw... it works this way
because pressure and flow are inverse proportional... lubrication is a
property of the fluid not force...
soichiroAlso remember the W in say 10w-40 is not weight. The W means winter.
Many think that the “W” in 10W-40 means “winter”but its not true...
Quote SAE J300 p.2:
"Two series of viscosity grades are defined in Table (1): (a) those
containing the letter W and (b) those without. Single viscosity grade
oils with the letter W are defined by maximum low temperature cranking
and pumping viscosities and a minimum kinematic viscosity at 100C.
Single grade oils without the letter W are based on a set of minimum
and maximum kinematic viscosities at 100C and a minimum high shear
rate viscosity at 150C. The shear rate will depend on the test method.
Multigrade grade oils are defined by both of these criteria."
So the W is just a designation of one type of testing vs another and if you personally
asked them if it stands for "winter" and they flatly said "no".
soichiroYoshiHNSI don't get it. Every time I go change the oil it's dirty. I'm pretty sure I put clean oil in there. I think someone keeps putting junk in my oil to make it dirty and make my bike not run as well. It's very annoying having to keep putting clean oil in there to make everything feel right.
LOL, good one.
I have customers ask all the time, "WHAT DID MY OIL LOOK LIKE"?
Same answer everytime, BLACK!!!!!
Of course i'm talking honda autos. Bike oil at 3k miles looks nothing like car oil at 3k miles. Both are still very much darker than when it was poured out of the bottle.
I've considered buying some cheap standard grade oil and a cheap filter for an oil change, running it for a couple hours or a day, then replacing it with the normal good stuff as I normally do. The goal would be to see if running a quick oil change would clean up the my bike's innards for awhile, leaving the good stuff to do its job in more pristine conditions - and maybe last longer, too, since (theoretically anyway) the engine would be cleaner after an oil flush.
Has anyone ever done this, and would it even work the way I'm thinking? Or maybe I'd need to flush it 2x-3x to really clean up the insides. I think it sounds kind of crazy, but I've thought of trying it on more than one occasion.
The irony of motorcycle oil changes is that, while it can be pain and rather expensive (depending on what oil and filter you buy), I would love to have to do them more often, as it would mean I'm riding a lot! :laugh: A few years ago when I was averaging 11k miles per year, I was doing 3-4 oil changes per year, now it's more like 2 changes per year. I hoping to need to do at least 3 this year. :wink:
I must be on the lunatic fringe of this debate.
I put Mobil 1 full syn once every 7K miles, which works out to once every 2 years the way I ride.
No issues to report to date.
Of course, a more... 'scientific' approach to oil will probably help the engine last practically for ever.Do I need it to last for ever? Probably not.
Just look at BR. HE hasn't adjusted valves in 100K miles and the bike is still going strong :goofy:
Id really have that 0w30 or 0w40 tested, I bet its a 20 weight inside of 1000 miles. Personally 30 weights Ive seen pronounced cam lobe wear on mc engines(and this is with 5w40 Pao Full synthetic(just too light weight for pressure areas. So thats a definite no way for me.
Many run the 5w40 rotella, (thats okay its actually heavier), however my testing showed rotella 5w40 had dropped a full grade by 1200 miles in my vfr.
Edited June 13, 2013 by spud7862thdrrangemasterNot to go to far off topic but I tried Larry's (BLS) advice to try the M1 0W-30 in my 4th gen for the last two winters here and was very pleased with its performance. I'm about ready to do the summer oil change and was going to use the old reliable Rotella 10-40 syn but based on Larry's endorsement of the M1 0W-40 will probably try that. Air temps on the way to work are 65-70F and 95-100+F on the way home. Maybe Larry will respond if that is a good match or not.
Have you shopped for the Mobil 1 0W-40 at Walmart or other yet? Is it readily available and how much are they getting for it?
$22.47 for the 5 qt. jug. They had a few on the shelf. Must be popular, they were out at the first one I tried.
luvtoleanitBSL, thoughts?
Sorry to take so long but I've been busy prepping Mr.RC45 for Laguna Seca...
My thoughts are with the numbers... at start up you want lowest
viscosity possible for quick flow to the critical bearing thats where
the Viscosity of 58.3 is more desirable than 83.7... At operating
temps you want a viscosity of 10 because for every 1,000 rpms the
engine pumps 10psi... 2000 rpm 20psi and so on thats where the 10.4 is
more desirable than 14.7... Total base numbers are the amount of
additives... 12.6 is a more robust additive package than 10.5... and
finally a 30 will gain you more HP at the rear wheel than a 40 due to
less oil drag however either oil will meet your high mileage
expectations... its your choice...
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C or 104ºF cSt (83.7 4-STROKE 0W-40) (58.3 Synthetic 0W-30)
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, 212ºF cSt (14.7 4-STROKE 0W-40)(10.4 Synthetic 0W-30)
Total Base Number (10.5 4-STROKE 0W-40) (12.6 Synthetic 0W-30)
I dont know, Ive done full throttle runs NOT (vfr) , and the Heavy weight oils produce more top speed than the light weight ones. Only by 3 mph or so(consistantly). Testing was done with amsoil 20w50 and Motul 15w50, both consistantly out performed top speed runs verses 5w40 pure pao synthetic. Not mobil one fake synthetic.
Ive no data to support lighter weight oils produce more power once at full temps, my results say otherwise, oil has thinned out enough for friction to enter the picture.
I believe any benefit of light weight oil, is in the very early stages of start up in very cold weather, otherwise there is no real benefit.
That is what I thought as well but I'm trying to learn more. I've never run a 0w, always 10w or 15w for the most part and some 5W Rotella Synth as its hard to argue with $21 a gallon at Chinamart when I don't want to wait on Amsoil to ship. I'm running a 0w in the cage but the manual specifies for it and its a diesel.
spud786I dont know, Ive done full throttle runs NOT (vfr) , and the Heavy weight oils produce more top speed than the light weight ones. Only by 3 mph or so(consistantly). Testing was done with amsoil 20w50 and Motul 15w50, both consistantly out performed top speed runs verses 5w40 pure pao synthetic. Not mobil one fake synthetic.
Ive no data to support lighter weight oils produce more power once at full temps, my results say otherwise, oil has thinned out enough for friction to enter the picture.
I believe any benefit of light weight oil, is in the very early stages of start up in very cold weather, otherwise there is no real benefit.
+1 I dont see it either ...
The quality of lubricants these days is so good that it probably doesn't matter what you use. I have a friend who rides a Kawisaki ZRX1200R. He commutes 100 miles round trip each day, and his bike has over 160,000 miles on it. When I asked him what oil he uses, he said, "the cheap stuff, whatever is on sale, 10W-40" Even Stan Wilson, the Brit courier who racked up over 400,000 miles on his third gen engine (twice) used off the shelf car engine oil.
In my three years membership on this forum, I haven't once read of a VFR being worn out, bellowing blue smoke, or consuming oil between changes. Riders who love their bikes enough to read up and learn about them do not abuse them. Regular maintenance is far more effective than which oil we choose. I am happy to see that there are a lot of riders passionate about that!
jeffyjeffThe quality of lubricants these days is so good that it probably doesn't matter what you use. I have a friend who rides a Kawisaki ZRX1200R. He commutes 100 miles round trip each day, and his bike has over 160,000 miles on it. When I asked him what oil he uses, he said, "the cheap stuff, whatever is on sale, 10W-40" Even Stan Wilson, the Brit courier who racked up over 400,000 miles on his third gen engine (twice) used off the shelf car engine oil.
In my three years membership on this forum, I haven't once read of a VFR being worn out, bellowing blue smoke, or consuming oil between changes. Riders who love their bikes enough to read up and learn about them do not abuse them. Regular maintenance is far more effective than which oil we choose. I am happy to see that there are a lot of riders passionate about that!
^^^Exactly^^^
spud786I dont know, Ive done full throttle runs NOT (vfr) , and the Heavy weight oils produce more top speed than the light weight ones. Only by 3 mph or so(consistantly). Testing was done with amsoil 20w50 and Motul 15w50, both consistantly out performed top speed runs verses 5w40 pure pao synthetic. Not mobil one fake synthetic.
Ive no data to support lighter weight oils produce more power once at full temps, my results say otherwise, oil has thinned out enough for friction to enter the picture.
I believe any benefit of light weight oil, is in the very early stages of start up in very cold weather, otherwise there is no real benefit.
Actually you would be hard pressed to find any data supporting your position anywhere.
In fact ask any Professional Race team of any type and you find most if not all of them all using Zero weight oils in every part of their race vehicle whether a bike, boat, or Formula 1 team.
Why, less internal friction Always equals more Power!!!
I don't really think they run it for Cold Start concerns. :wink:
BTW heavier weight oil of the same brand and type will never produce more power or speed over a light weight oil of the same type, that would be against physics! :unsure:
BaileyrockActually you would be hard pressed to find any data supporting your position anywhere.
In fact ask any Professional Race team of any type and you find most if not all of them all using Zero weight oils in every part of their race vehicle whether a bike, boat, or Formula 1 team.
Why, less internal friction Always equals more Power!!!
I don't really think they run it for Cold Start concerns. :wink:
BTW heavier weight oil of the same brand and type will never produce more power or speed over a light weight oil of the same type, that would be against physics! :unsure:
True... the law of physics says less internal friction equals more RWHP and that fact is verifiable on
a dyno like Sport RIder learned in their experiment... 30wt is 2.7 to 3.3 HP in a bottle versus 40wt...
Quote Sport RIder...
Dyno Test
Some oil manufacturers and their representatives claim that using
their product will result in more horsepower. These are special
ultra-lightweight-viscosity racing synthetic oils that are said to
reduce the parasitic drag that oil has on an engine's internal
reciprocating components. We decided to put these claims to the
test-an actual dynamometer test. Two of the full synthetic oils in
this test make these horsepower claims on their labels: Maxima Maxum
Ultra (in 0W-30 and 5W-30) and Motul Factory Line 300V (in 5W-30). We
took two open-class sportbikes-a Suzuki GSX-R1000 and a Yamaha
YZF-R1-and ran them with common off-the-shelf Valvoline 10W-40
automobile mineral oil to set a baseline dyno run. That oil was
drained and replaced with the 0W-30 Maxum Ultra in the Suzuki, and the
5W-30 Motul 300V in the Yamaha. After about 15 miles of running to get
the oil fully circulated through the engine, the bikes were then
dynoed again.
Lo and behold, both the Suzuki and Yamaha posted horsepower gains.
While not an earth-shattering boost in power, the gains were far
beyond common run variations, and weren't restricted to the very top
end. The GSX-R1000 posted an increase of 3.3 horsepower on top, with
some noticeable midrange gains as well; even more interesting was that
the power steadily increased for several dyno runs (as the coolant
temp increased). The Yamaha responded nearly as well, with a 2.7
horsepower boost on top. It should also be noted that while riding
both bikes, there was a noticeable ease in shifting with the synthetic
oils compared to the automobile mineral oil. Pretty impressive for
just changing oil, in our opinion.
jeffyjeffThe quality of lubricants these days is so good that it probably doesn't matter what you use. In my three years membership on this forum, I haven't once read of a VFR being worn out, bellowing blue smoke, or consuming oil between changes.
I also gather that everyone is meeting or exceeding their longevity expectations no matter if they choose 30wt 40 wt or 50wt The only difference is how much HP is lost due to oil drag... if you want to enjoy the maximum HP possible from your engine then try a 100% synthetic 30wt... if you want the latest performance in 30 weights then try any 0-30wt...
RicejeffyjeffThe quality of lubricants these days is so good that it probably doesn't matter what you use. I have a friend who rides a Kawisaki ZRX1200R. He commutes 100 miles round trip each day, and his bike has over 160,000 miles on it. When I asked him what oil he uses, he said, "the cheap stuff, whatever is on sale, 10W-40" Even Stan Wilson, the Brit courier who racked up over 400,000 miles on his third gen engine (twice) used off the shelf car engine oil.
In my three years membership on this forum, I haven't once read of a VFR being worn out, bellowing blue smoke, or consuming oil between changes. Riders who love their bikes enough to read up and learn about them do not abuse them. Regular maintenance is far more effective than which oil we choose. I am happy to see that there are a lot of riders passionate about that!
^^^Exactly^^^
Ditto. Well said, Jeff. I've used everything from regular dino auto oil to Mobil 1 for motorcycles. It's all worked fine.
As far as I can tell, the reason some people use synthetics is to prolong oil life (changing it less often). As I mentioned in a post earlier in this thread, when running full synthetic I'll go about 1k more miles than I do when running dino or a dino/synth. blend. Unless there is a performance reason to use synthetic, you're more or less equaling out the cost, i.e. More $$ for synth, but changing less frequently = Less $$ for dino but changing more frequently.
Some of you may love changing your oil and filter, but to me it's a PITA. (Don't get me wrong - there is satisfaction in a job done well, but it's still a time-consuming pain.) So if I can get away with doing it 2x per season using slightly more expensive oil vs. 3x per season using less expensive oil, it's worth the extra few bucks per quart to me to use synth. and save the hassle of that extra oil and filter change.
So here is a really thorough engineering review that settles and clarifies some of the musings posted in this oil thread. Empirical data, rather than "It runs great in all my bikes". The URL will take you pages into the data, and the summary cuts to the chase. http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html Motorcycle Oil and Filters
This page Copyright © 2003-2011, by Mark Lawrence.
Email me, mark@calsci.com, with suggestions, additions, broken links.
Engine oil
Executive summary: The commercial grade oils are clearly superior to the mass market oils. For the best protection in your bike or car, use Shell Rotella Synthetic, available at Wal-Mart in blue containers for $13 / gallon. For the best petroleum oil you can buy, get Shell Rotella T, Mobil Delvac 1300, or Chevron Delo 400, about $7 / gallon at any auto parts store. [image: API_donut_starburst_H.jpg]On the back of most oil cans is a circular stamp with the certification. Avoid oils that say "energy conserving" in the bottom half of the donut. These oils contain friction modifier additives that could cause clutch slipping over time. All XXw-20 and XXw-30 oils are energy conserving, and should not be used in your motorcycle. 10w-40 oils should not be used in a motorcycle that runs the engine oil through the transmission. Don't buy any oil additives like STP or Slick-50. Here's several pages All About Oil justifying these conclusions.
I use Rotella-T Synthetic 5w-40 in my ST1300 and DL650.
@busy little shop, I just put some Mobil1 0w-40 in my CB1000R. I'm assuming what is good for the V4 is also good for the I4? The label says "resource conserving" which I assume is due to less frequent oil changes recommended for the synthetic?
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2
2thdr@busy little shop, I just put some Mobil1 0w-40 in my CB1000R. I'm assuming what is good for the V4 is also good for the I4? The label says "resource conserving" which I assume is due to less frequent oil changes recommended for the synthetic?
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2
Zero weight oils are the most current oils and therefore good for both the V4 and I4...
Quote API
Energy Conserving and Resource Conserving oils may result is an
overall saving of fuel in the vehicle fleet as a whole.
In other words Saving of Fuel is oil can labeling for more HP at the rear wheel...
JETSOn the back of most oil cans is a circular stamp with the certification. Avoid oils that say "energy conserving" in the bottom half of the donut. These oils contain friction modifier additives that could cause clutch slipping over time. All XXw-20 and XXw-30 oils are energy conserving, and should not be used in your motorcycle. 10w-40 oils should not be used in a motorcycle that runs the engine oil through the transmission. Don't buy any oil additives like STP or Slick-50. Here's several pages All About Oil justifying these conclusions.I use Rotella-T Synthetic 5w-40 in my ST1300 and DL650.
Negative... friction modifiers such as Moly will not cause a clutch to slip in good working order... in fact
your Rotella T Synthetic 5w-40 has 63 ppm Moly and you're not complaining about clutch slip...
Virgin Oil Sample for Rotella T Synthetic 5w-40
[image: post-3131-0-58201300-1375232295.gif]
BusyLittleShop2thdr@busy little shop, I just put some Mobil1 0w-40 in my CB1000R. I'm assuming what is good for the V4 is also good for the I4? The label says "resource conserving" which I assume is due to less frequent oil changes recommended for the synthetic?
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2
Zero weight oils are the most current oils and therefore good for both the V4 and I4...
Quote API
Energy Conserving and Resource Conserving oils may result is an
overall saving of fuel in the vehicle fleet as a whole.
In other words Saving of Fuel is oil can labeling for more HP at the rear wheel...
The bonus was that I got a 5 quart jug at walmart for $23 !
"-Has the jury reached a verdict?
- No, we have not. For we have evolved to a higher state of consciousness. In the grand scheme, all oil thread trolls are but yokels. Now, settle your petty squabbles and get the hell out!"
-Futurama w/ added text by me.
BusyLittleShopJETSOn the back of most oil cans is a circular stamp with the certification. Avoid oils that say "energy conserving" in the bottom half of the donut. These oils contain friction modifier additives that could cause clutch slipping over time. All XXw-20 and XXw-30 oils are energy conserving, and should not be used in your motorcycle. 10w-40 oils should not be used in a motorcycle that runs the engine oil through the transmission. Don't buy any oil additives like STP or Slick-50. Here's several pages All About Oil justifying these conclusions.I use Rotella-T Synthetic 5w-40 in my ST1300 and DL650.
Negative... friction modifiers such as Moly will not cause a clutch to slip in good working order... in fact
your Rotella T Synthetic 5w-40 has 63 ppm Moly and you're not complaining about clutch slip...
Virgin Oil Sample for Rotella T Synthetic 5w-40
63ppm of moly is basically nothing, anything under 100 ppm is basically nothing. But there are oils out there with 500 to 800 ppm of moly, this is where it can get border line with slipping issues , and really its then dependant on how stout the clutch is which also varies amongst models , even in new condition.
BusyLittleShopJETSOn the back of most oil cans is a circular stamp with the certification. Avoid oils that say "energy conserving" in the bottom half of the donut. These oils contain friction modifier additives that could cause clutch slipping over time. All XXw-20 and XXw-30 oils are energy conserving, and should not be used in your motorcycle. 10w-40 oils should not be used in a motorcycle that runs the engine oil through the transmission. Don't buy any oil additives like STP or Slick-50. Here's several pages All About Oil justifying these conclusions.I use Rotella-T Synthetic 5w-40 in my ST1300 and DL650.
Negative... friction modifiers such as Moly will not cause a clutch to slip in good working order... in fact
your Rotella T Synthetic 5w-40 has 63 ppm Moly and you're not complaining about clutch slip...
Virgin Oil Sample for Rotella T Synthetic 5w-40
I dont run the rotella 5w40 in the vfr, it broke down tooo fast via having it tested , its okay for 1000 or 1500 miles with my use. Really it about as good as a 10w40 car oil in a motorcycle longevity wise.
Now the standard 15w40 diesils fair much better in a motorcycle, if you can find one that doesnt cause notchy shifting.
spud78663ppm of moly is basically nothing, anything under 100 ppm is basically nothing. But there are oils out there with 500 to 800 ppm of moly, this is where it can get border line with slipping issues , and really its then dependant on how stout the clutch is which also varies amongst models , even in new condition.
Have you ever ran a oil in your VFR with 500 to 800ppm Moly???
This has got to be the most confusing subject I've every tried to research. I'm just trying to figure out if the 10w-40 Castrol GTX Synth Blend will kill my beloved Gen 3.
No it will not as long as it is a mc oil that meets the specs as per the 3rd gen manual.
BRad704This has got to be the most confusing subject I've every tried to research. I'm just trying to figure out if the 10w-40 Castrol GTX Synth Blend will kill my beloved Gen 3.
This can really be simplified. On one of my first trips to the Gap area, I met an OLD man at Tapoco Lodge. He rode in late one evening on one ragged looking faded out 5th gen. that had literally never been under any kind of roof he told me except when his dealer changed his oil for him. He had 98,000+ miles on the bike at that time. He told me the only oil that had ever been in the bike was plain old Honda Dino. So, like TimC said, everyone wants to put what they determine to be the best oil in the machine they spend a lot of time and money on. It's understandable.
To finish the story, this man and I rode together all day the next two days and he could leave me in the dust at the time and his bike would scream and he knew how to ride very well. Some of you here may have known this guy but heck if I can remember his name. I read about 4 years later that, at WAY over a hundred K miles, he bought a new VFR for some reason. It wasn't because he cared what it looked like. Hell of a good guy he was. ; )
BRad704This has got to be the most confusing subject I've every tried to research. I'm just trying to figure out if the 10w-40 Castrol GTX Synth Blend will kill my beloved Gen 3.
No oil in the engine will kill your 3rd Gen in a minute... fact it doesn't
matter to your engines longevity if you run Dino or Synthetic... or
even 50 40 or 30 weight.... no one is wearing out their engine... but
it does matter in the amount of rear wheel HP is wasted in unnecessary
oil drag... between a 30wt and 40wt is 2 to 3 HP in unnecessary oil
drag... between a 30 and 50 is 4 to 6 HP in unnecessary oil drag...
choosing the freest flowing viscosity of 30 as prescribed by the
official Honda manual over a 40 50 equals more HP joy...
I ended up taking the auto oil back for Castrol 4T 20w-50 motorcycle oil. I'm not trying to squeak every last HP out at this point, I just want a solid oil change, as I'm trying to sell her. :|
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