VFRDiscussion ARCHIVE / READ-ONLYREAD-ONLY

Stator Bbq Fix

57 posts Started 11 Oct 2013 Last recovered post 5 Feb 2014 Wayback Machine snapshot 18 Sep 2021
#1 Auspanglish Thread starter

Well great minds think alike.. Switchblade.. Or demented ones..

Engineering buddy decided to go all Friday 13th on the casing.. You can say oil port..

Let me explain..

Found a crucial difference between 5th and 6th gen motors re said oil flow in the stator housing. There's a longish metal oil conduit pipe for VTEC operation smack bang in front of the orifice for oil flow from crankcase to the stator housing bay. Thus hampering the proper oil flow distribution. This would explain the infinitely higher proportion of stator burn out on 6th gen as opposed to 5th gen. This is backed up by the fact that the critical heat damage occurs in the upper half of the stator, as gravity assures the lower half, or third, does receive oil and thus some cooling.

The oil is around 100 degrees but the stators apparently get much hotter. So the oil is necessary for cooling.. Some form of cooling is necessary.

Obviously additional defects in the wiring harness all add to the problem.

The aluminium alternator cover has thus been modified to provide better oil flow to the coils.. Basically cutting notches into the thing.. Pictures speak a thousand words..

[image: ybe3e2uq.jpg]
[image: hyra6yge.jpg]
[image: pa3unyba.jpg]
[image: uhe9uqut.jpg]
[image: u5u5uhe5.jpg]

More could be done, for example having a custom conduit pipe built to reroute the original set up and thus allow proper oil entry but that's big bucks.

This is the pipe..
[image: 6y2aru9u.jpg]
[image: e6e8uzu3.jpg]
[image: ugymyzym.jpg]
 
You can clearly see here above how the pipe blocks the oil entry from the crankcase to the stator housing bay.
Doesn't exist on the 5th gen!!


#2 MysteryRider246

I thought I had seen this same post a day or two ago.


#3 2thdr

I'm no mechanic, but it seems that there is in fact about half of the oil port visible below the pipe in the photo.  Under what kind of pressure would the oil be flowing thru that port?  Enough to spray past the partial occlusion of the port?  Wouldn't you think the engineers designing the motor be aware of all the permutations of their own design?  I mean that's what they get paid for, right?  Not trying to totally discount your discovery...just playing devil's advocate...


#4 Auspanglish Thread starter
One supposes they would take it into account but the evidence is fairly clear. We even have a differential diagnosis supporting the hypothesis, derived from the comparison with the 5th gen motor and symptoms. The 5th gen is not famous for frying stators, the 6th gen is. The 5th gen does not have that pipe in the way, the 6th gen does. The stators all fry with the exact same pattern.. Seen again and again..See photo below.. Rotate the photo 90 degrees clockwise to orientate the stators as fitted to the bike. Burnt up top and down the sides but unscathed at the very bottom, where the oil is guaranteed to get to thanks to gravity. [image: kylw.jpg] The pipe has been looked at up real close by a team of industrial engineers that work on, fix and diagnose break downs on all sorts of motors and machinery at one of Spain's most important shipping ports. Honda's engineers have overlooked several design/manufacturing issues to do with the 6th gen. Just to name a few, there was the VTEC transition issue which they took 4 years to address, finally they introduced histeresis to the engagement/disengagement point, instead of being at the same value (6800 engagement/6800 disengagement), they introduced histeresis (6400 engagement/6100 disengagement). Not to mention PCV valve recall for having been installed upside down, rear subchassis cracking issues among others. So these highly paid individuals are not exempt from brain farts. I'm convinced beyond a doubt, but by all means feel free to comment and debate the issue here. Yes the post is in another thread. I have opened this one to avoid hijacking.
#5 Beck

Looks like you really only have a choice of "Done" or "Well Done" with the VFR stators, as no matter what gen you have, the top portion of the stator will still tend to fry anyway after some time, being that not enough oil gets to it to cool it sufficiently. Interesting why Honda did not come up with a way to fully immerse the stator in oil by just creating enough of a compartment for it that will fill with oil to a higher level when the engine is running...

Can that be a mod that a VFR owner can do, in addition to this slotting of the cases??


#6 Auspanglish Thread starter
Major surgery Not easily achieved by the average geaser in his garage.
#7 Rice

Interesting theory and on the face of it does sount plausible.

Two questions:

1 - What advantage are you gaining by cutting the aluminum out?  I understand that you want to get more oil to enter, just don't picture how would this cutting accomplish said goal.

2 - I'm sure that the answer is NO, BUT...  Can the "frown" be turned upside down?  IS there enough room behind the stator flywheel to flip the conduit pipe?


#8 Beck

Interesting theory and on the face of it does sount plausible.

Two questions:

1 - What advantage are you gaining by cutting the aluminum out?  I understand that you want to get more oil to enter, just don't picture how would this cutting accomplish said goal.

2 - I'm sure that the answer is NO, BUT...  Can the "frown" be turned upside down?  IS there enough room behind the stator flywheel to flip the conduit pipe?

That stator flywheel looks tight against that back wall. I don't see any room in there to move that pipe around. What if one will "ovalize" that conduit pipe where it crosses over that oiler hole, as long as long as one will not go too far with the reshaping of the line, oil flow through the pipe should not be affected too much, if at all. Not a 100% solution to improve the oil flow through that opening, but it could help....


#9 Switchblade

I  brought  this  up  earlier,  why  not  add a  port  from the  oil cooler  to  the  stator  cover  and  spray  the  cooled  oil  onto  the  stator. 


#10 MysteryRider246

I  brought  this  up  earlier,  why  not  add a  port  from the  oil cooler  to  the  stator  cover  and  spray  the  cooled  oil  onto  the  stator. 

Rather than adding a port, how about re-routing the oil cooler outlet tube to the stator cover?  


#11 91talon

I can see a couple of benefits to routing the oil line on the return trip from the cooler to the stator:

1. Cooler oil, obviously

2. It would be unique.

That being said though, what would the cons be? What kind of disruption in the oil flow would there be? Would there be a drop in oil pressure?

Just tossing stuff out there.


#12 JeffLaurence

If the oil goes from the oil pump to the crank, camshafts etc., then there's no way that could work-- oil pressure would be next to none.You would need a scavenge pump in the sump to go to the cooler and then to the alternator.


#13 MysteryRider246

In the FSM for a 5th Gen there is a diagram of the lubrication system on page 4-0. It shows the way the oil flows.  


#14 91talon

The FSM... I need to look at that for the 6th gen. Which I happen to keep on my flash drive at all time...  LOL


Here it is from the FSM:

It looks like diverting oil after the oil cooler would be a bad thing, no?


Short of adding a smaller, secondary, oil cooler, I just don't see it being a viable option. Unless you had some sort of split line, with a smaller diameter tube going to the alternator cover?

(again, just throwing ideas out there)

Attached Images

  • [image: oil path.JPG]

#15 Grayv3
After looking at the oil circuit what about t'ing off the cooler return using a smaller diameter hose or restrictor & tap into the stator cover so the factory pressure is still intact?
#16 Switchblade

I  brought  this  up  earlier,  why  not  add a  port  from the  oil cooler  to  the  stator  cover  and  spray  the  cooled  oil  onto  the  stator. 

Rather than adding a port, how about re-routing the oil cooler outlet tube to the stator cover?  

You  the  man.  Excellent  idea  !!!!!!


#17 Auspanglish Thread starter

Obviously the ultimate fix would be providing better oil flow to the stator... brainstorming as you all are is usually the first stage in approaching a fix for any problema... so top marks to all for throwing ideas out there... these ideas then have to be considered in terms of viability and validity... as in, will they effectively achieve what is desired (better stator cooling) and, if scavenging of the existing cooling/lubricating system, will there be any unwanted negative side-effects from doing so??

The conduit that obstructs oil flow into the alternator housing bay is for VTEC activation so "reshaping" it could lead to problems with said feature. You may effectively eliminate or créate a malfunctioning VTEC engagement if the oil-pressure to that system is altered in any way...

Switchblade's idea of having an alternate source of incoming oil to the stator housing is very interesting... where to steal that oil flow from so that no other components are starved is evidently of vital importance. Probably quite doable. It's just a matter of studying all the variables.

As far as the "experiment" performed on the cover, we are completely uncertain as to how this will effect oil flow to and/or cooling of the stator but the idea is based on the fact that in its original form, it has a prefabbed slot at the 12 o'clock position and any oil entering this slot will run out of the centre of the stator flowing down over the coils that you can see in the photos tend to be nice and milky white in colour, this both being based on and reinforcing our theory even further at the same time. Some of this oil is assumed to be "flung" by the rotational forces existent within the housing bay, due to the spinning of the rotor, mostly because the stator does take some time (read kilometers) to fry. We hope to provide an alternative route for the oil to exit and hopefully be "flung" by the rotational forces from a higher position and thus supply a greater volumen of oil reaching the upper portions of the stator coils.

It is true though, we are completely unaware of the fluid dynamics taking place within the housing while the engine is running... for this reason I asked Seb if he felt doing a clear window on the stator cover was as viable as it has been proven with the clutch cover... to be able to observe in real time what's acutally going on in there... Seb points out this would be a very small window due to the stator mounting points and I am not even sure we will bother... my engineering buddy has basically said we will try an alternative option for testing the results of the experiment... i.e. riding the bike 20 thousand km or so and then taking a look at the stator...

:cool:

I myself will also shortly be performing this same mod on my 6th gen (3rd stator fry in 130,000 km just happened recently) but I will possibly perform a third cut into the stator cover, thus having oil slots at 12 (OEM), 3 and 9 o'clock...

:ph34r:

Nothing to loose.


#18 Egg on Leggs

How about liquid nitrogen cooling of the generator cover? :491:


#19 Auspanglish Thread starter

Sounds sexy!!!

Or simply finding a stator that runs cooler and has better isolation material... what's it called in English lacquer? varnish?


#20 gll429


I'm no mechanic, but it seems that there is in fact about half of the oil port visible below the pipe in the photo.  Under what kind of pressure would the oil be flowing thru that port?  Enough to spray past the partial occlusion of the port?  Wouldn't you think the engineers designing the motor be aware of all the permutations of their own design?  I mean that's what they get paid for, right?  Not trying to totally discount your discovery...just playing devil's advocate...

the world is FULL of stupid designs made by people getting paid for it!!

 the honda shadow 1100

 it has a special T shaped battery ,thanks to the rube forgetting to add a battery to the  plans and HONDA>>..HONDA ,NOT catching the mistake until a sh^tload of frames where completed!!

 the suzuki CAN O TUNA.. the first few years had the fuse box on the side of the rear seat support.. meaning.. you had to loosen the windshield and the mirror and the right front fairing then the right rear fairing, remove the seat. pull the tail fairing out from overlapping front, then change a fuse! thats right!! just scant 25 min to do in! anit that just swell!??

 how many bikes with battery placed between the the swingarm struts ??  meaning you have to jack the rear wheel 2 feet in the air to get a 1 foot clearance to drop the battery..i know of 4 by suzuki.. i am pretty sure its the same moron that created the vomitus can o tuna...

as for the VFR... the problem was solved YEARS ago.. its just $$$$

[image: the_Alternator_zps52a389b1.jpg]


#21 Egg on Leggs

Sounds sexy!!!

Or simply finding a stator that runs cooler and has better isolation material... what's it called in English lacquer? varnish?

 Lacquer is good, the original term was Shellac before synthetics came along.


#22 JeffLaurence

 Who made that carbon fibre creation? Sounds like the best option is to use a series regulator instead of the shunt type


#23 gll429

durban in germany.. its not just a cover.. the stator is on the OUTSIDE of the rotor.. which is now just a bilit disk with magnetic inserts. the whole package chops 75% weight of the stock rotor/stator/cover  :blink:

 wish i had the $$$ for it myself :tongue2:  .


#24 JeffLaurence

OK,how much , and what will it output?


#25 Auspanglish Thread starter

So how does it fix the overheating problem??


#26 gll429

So how does it fix the overheating problem??

you dont see the holes and the face of the rotor is exposed??? its air cooled vs being stuck in the engine and baking  to death!

the stuff from durbahn it .... WOW!!!

Cpl.Alternator Kit Incl. Rectifier ,Alloy Milled Coil Holder ,Ready To Mount ,For Orig. Alternator Cover.

940 $

 90 gr rectifier,with 10 years guarantee,nearly undesstroyable ,handmade from a specialist in Germany.


#27 Switchblade

So how does it fix the overheating problem??

you dont see the holes and the face of the rotor is exposed??? its air cooled vs being stuck in the engine and baking  to death!

the stuff from durbahn it .... WOW!!!

Cpl.Alternator Kit Incl. Rectifier ,Alloy Milled Coil Holder ,Ready To Mount ,For Orig. Alternator Cover.

940 $

 90 gr rectifier,with 10 years guarantee,nearly undesstroyable ,handmade from a specialist in Germany.

I'm  thinkin  group  buy.


#29 kaldek

Geez just fit a series regulator and be done with it.


#30 Arri
So this was the secret system!!
I like it. "You kwon now" it is time to define the method to quantify the improvement. This is what I have not clear as what you gonna do

;)
#31 Switchblade
Auspañol

Switch... your hands are not exactly a scientific measuring instrument...

:goofy:

A laser thermometer would be a little more de rigueur

No, I just know difference between can touch and can not touch.

#32 Auspanglish Thread starter

Yeah I know what you mean, just digging at ya. No offense meant!!

I replaced my OEM regulator for a Rick's one from wiremybike.com and noticed that it was cool to the touch where the OEM one was warm to hot.

#34 Egg on Leggs

I am at a loss to see how an oil jet would work with the room available. The stator sits quite tightly within the rotor which shields it pretty well from anything other than a fairly derisory oil mist.

#35 spud786

I just noticed that flywheel does have little oil scoops to distribute oil.

#36 Switchblade

That looks like the spot, you would hit the gap between the stator and the rotor .


Auspanoil just to make sure everyone understand the side of stator next to the cover is just as burnt and probably worst. The two burnt ones I have are worst on the side were the stator cover is then the side that is exposed to the rotor.

#37 Auspanglish Thread starter
spud786I just noticed that flywheel does have little oil scoops to distribute oil.
Yes, the scalloped inner face of the rotor sidewalls would appear to have that purpose in mind..[image: ady2ahyv.jpg]But evidently it is insufficient to requirements.
SwitchbladeAuspanoil just to make sure everyone understand the side of stator next to the cover is just as burnt and probably worst. The two burnt ones I have are worst on the side were the stator cover is then the side that is exposed to the rotor.
The side that is not seen in the photos above?I'll be removing that stator in 3, 2, 1 and will confirm with more photos
#38 Switchblade

10-4 thanks I'll post mine tonight ....

#42 Beck

So....... why did they totally enclose the stator anyway??.... Can't it be open/dry like your regular car alternators?

Totally enclosing it will just always end up barbequing it with the heat soak that occurs in there.....

#43 Switchblade
Beck

So....... why did they totally enclose the stator anyway??.... Can't it be open/dry like your regular car alternators?

Totally enclosing it will just always end up barbequing it with the heat soak that occurs in there.....

The main reason is cost but your right it is a much better setup...

#44 Auspanglish Thread starter
mello dude

Nice photo work!

Thanks but most of them really are quite out of focus...

Switchblade

Yeah thats crispy ......

KFC crispy chicken stator!!!

#45 texasvfr

Probably a function of mass and not cost. Seems like my bmw rt's had auto type alternators but they were big ol things.

#46 Switchblade
texasvfr

Probably a function of mass and not cost. Seems like my bmw rt's had auto type alternators but they were big ol things.

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#47 Switchblade

Here's my two crispy stator's ....

[image: HondaStator]

#48 Auspanglish Thread starter

I am having the stator rewound by a mob in Barcelona (MCMOTRONIC: http://www.mcmotronic.com/?page_id=6〈=en) who claim to use a special resin or isolating material that can supposedly take the heat... they provide a one year warranty so I'll have to USE the bike this year and get some km on to test it out WITHIN the warranty period). They will also be using slightly thicker gauge output wires and providing the latter with a poofteenth more length so I can reroute them around the front of the motor instead of through the valley of the V4... I think only an extra 10 cm are required and shouldn't pose a technical problem (alternator wires should always be as short as possible). They will be testing my mosfet (Rick's courtesy of Wiremybike) R/R to see if survived the heat... I ran the diode test on it but being mosfet it has tiristors or some such, you get false negative readings on the upper set (see Electrosport's guide here: http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/pdf/diode-testing-guide.pdf )

i have purchased a new front wiring harness in the hope that the improvements made since 2003 will provide some relief to the system... however, on inspecting the new harness I see they have relocated the famous yellow ground terminal connector... and it is now orange once again (as it was on the 5th gen)... it is no longer wrapped up and hidden under the black electrical tape halfway along the LH branch of the harness but is now at the extreme end of it and very visible/accesible, together with the large shoddy blue and grey connectors within the clear plastic shroud used to protect these from the weather. What a nice little bbq they can all have snugged up together there!!

So, having taken this connector apart to check its continuity and such, I realized on putting it back together that it is really a bad design and is destined to fail... so I removed the plastic housing and placed the female terminals back onto the male prongs... according to the two separate groups the 10 or so ground wires are arranged into... and bulk soldered each lot separately, just as VFRKanuck did here: http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/66045-urethra-i-found-it/?p=786528 but with a powerful 80W soldering iron instead of a blowtorch. One thing to note is on this new harness there are not 6 and 8 wires, lathough there are two pin buses with 6 and 8 prongs, there are only 4 ground wires on the 6 pin bus and 6 on the 8 pin bus... so I found some appropriate female terminals and ran an extra alternative ground wire off each grouping... and bulk soldered each lot!!

[image: yhahype5.jpg]
[image: uqyzu3a4.jpg]
[image: be2yra7a.jpg]

...to be continued...

PS I would mention that out of all the Green ground wires going through this orange connector, most are actually entering, and only two are actually exiting... they enter from the lights, indicators, instrument panel and such and the exiting wires then head off, one from each grouping... and where do they go?? Lo and behold, one goes to ground via the famous (for burning out) big blue connector and the other goes through the latter's big grey partner... just as VFRKNK said: Urethra!! and I would add: Uranus!!

Switchblade

Here's my two crispy stator's ....

Hard to decide... BBQ sauce or Sauté??

#49 Dutchy
Auspañol

they provide a one year warranty so I'll have to USE the bike this year and get some km on to test it out WITHIN the warranty period).

World Superbike at Assen is typically end of April.............. Just saying.................

#50 Auspanglish Thread starter
Dutchy
Auspañol

they provide a one year warranty so I'll have to USE the bike this year and get some km on to test it out WITHIN the warranty period).

World Superbike at Assen is typically end of April.............. Just saying.................

Dude... a picture speaks a thousand words...

[image: 3nhx.png]

... but I would love to do it!!

2,222 km in 22 hours one way... according to google maps.

#52 Guest

Looking at the pictures on post 53, putting an oil squirter at the "proposed" location, with the red circle, would do no good really. It would still hit the flywheel, and would still miss the stator where it needs it.

From what I look at, the design is pretty simple: The main opening that shoots the oil out is hampered by the line for the VTEC. That opening looks to shoot the oil out over the flywheel, for the most part, and then it pools in the back, where it then runs down the side and collects in the center of the stator. Then it runs down the front, and back into the oil galleys.

The oil squirter would have be be located about an inch or so farther down the alternator cover. Pretty much on the main round surface. Just because of where the stator is located.

Unless I am off on my sizing, then just forget what I said. :wink:


Probably somewhere around this area:

#53 Auspanglish Thread starter

Yeah we are shooting blind... that was my guess... it may be somewhere in between yours and mine... the squirt has to enter right in between stator and rotor... it's a tight fit...

When I get the stator back from having it rewound I can make a more accurate indication... although at this stage I am just going to make to more notches at 3 and 9 o'clock... at the mounting boss, where it comes with a notch at 12 o'clock... cause I need to get the bike up and running... will be starting nursing prac at the infant surgery theatre of the Region's major hospital in a couple of weeks... and it's too far to bicycle to!!! (I don't own a car and have limited Access to the g/f's)

#54 Switchblade

The big square section(on the cover), a good location for a peep window. What do you think ?

#55 Grayv3

Most of that flat part will be blocked by the stator harness, no?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#56 Switchblade

 when  your stator  gets  that  hot  it  will  cook  your  oil  ...


#57 spud786

I remember when car alternators might go 40 to 60,000 miles, today most seem to easily go post 100,000 miles and then some, my chevy colrado has over 122,000 miles with original alternator, my 1998 Silverado 's did fail around 50,000 miles. I had a Toyota motor go 140,000 miles and still going on original alt.


End of thread · 57 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 18 Sep 2021