New Cct With Enlarged 2.75Mm Oil Port

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Im going to install this new front tentioner in a few days, with modded 2.75mm oil port hole in the gasket, the standard hole is .5 mm, anyone tried this yet?

Nope

can the old one be enlarged ?

Is this a new revision of an OEM part or is this a modified part? Does the tensioner have a larger hole? Making a larger hole in the gasket probably just helps with misalignment of the gaskets.

Does the enlarge hole allow for more oil to the CCT and to the guide ?

Switchblade

Does the enlarge hole allow for more oil to the CCT and to the guide ?

More oil will only go to the CCT if the CCT has a larger oil port. The gasket shouldn't matter in that regard.

Is the larger oil hole used for pressure or to oil the end of the CCT where it contacts the guide ?

I manually enlarged the gasket hole, the hole on the tensioner and the block is about 5mm so Im still about half of that size, this modification to the gasket doesnt effect alignment at all. It just allows more oil to flow into the tentioner, easier and faster.

Now the question does this increase in flow, force more pressure on the internals of the tentioner, and applies more pressure to the chain guide. As far as hydraulics, I say (no) with the amount ive done atleast , there's no piston or anything that that catches the increased flow of oil, the entry oil port in the tentioner runs through a tunnel in the aluminum tensioner body all the way to the end, the oil comes out of this port and lubricates the spring, and then flows back out through two oil holes where the plunger goes into the body. There's nothing really there to catch oil and force more pressure on the tentioner plunger.

Theroretically, if there was alot of pressure, it could blow the tentioner apart mechanically, cause the thing is held together by a wire c ring retaining clip. My guess is honda makes the port in the gasket really small to limit pressure, but maybe its just too small and is detrimental to the front tentioner and why it seems to be much more problematic than the rear, which is normally flooded with oil, Ive never seen the front one flooded with oil(ever). The front one just doesnt seem to see as much oil flow, so Im going to see what effect this has.

Many believe the rattle is the chain, but I proved that wrong years ago with a test, I loosened the front tentioner mounting screws 2mm , this allowed the plunger to extend 2mm and the tension seperated the tentioner from the block , then I retightend down the screws, this drove the tensioner harder into the chain, no rattle now, but a KNOCK, KNOck, and i could hear the chain riding on the guide under stress.. Thats when I knew it was not the chain rattling at all but the internals of the tentioner itself.

This tentioner I have right now, becomes noisey a few minutes after start up, after 5 miles it goes quiet, IMO, its taking that long to fill with oil, I dont know why it consistantly goes quiet after five miles, other than that reason.

I'll be watching how this turns out Brian. My APE manual tensioner is still quite, but it is still a manual part (although I have never had to adjust it as of yet). This would be the cheapest "fix" if this actually works. So is your current tensioner making noise even with the oil you've found to be most resistant to the CCT noise?

hondalover

I'll be watching how this turns out Brian. My APE manual tensioner is still quite, but it is still a manual part (although I have never had to adjust it as of yet). This would be the cheapest "fix" if this actually works. So is your current tensioner making noise even with the oil you've found to be most resistant to the CCT noise?

This tensioner has alot of history, I replaced it New around 30,000 miles on the bike, that was after testing the original tentioner in varios ways mentioned, and finding nothing wrong with it other than rattle noise. But this new tentioner installed at 30,000 ,iles rattled almost off the bat when new, and I was pissed, a waste of money. That was when I discovered certain car oils and noise went away, and noise wasnt an issue for about or 40,000 or 45,000 miles afterwards. But after this tentioner got post 50,000 mile sor so, no particular oils that id ran in the past seem to have any effect with its noise. I recently had to replace a rear tentioner around 90,000 miles a year ago(the first time) it had ever had issue with the rear, and it was bad and ,making strong knocking noise, new tentioner fixed it.

But Im at the point where I have to replace this front tentioner with 75,000 miles and its been noisey for about 15 or 20,000 miles, even though I swore id never waste any more money on an oem ACCT, its just I can do it with out tearing the bike down, with much more than lifting the tank and remove the side panel. I really didnt know with the limited amount that I tear down the bike to replace, I could easily fit the manual tentioner adjust it and tighten it. I didnt have a crows foot, or knew if I could fit in there with airbox in place. so I went acct again, just for familiarity and conveinance.

This is about the only thing ive not played with on the front tentioner(enlaging the oil hole), so I thought I rule it out. Since Im installing a new one.

I have always thought the rattle was the CCT at the point where it contacts the guide.

I like your logic, eliminating all the variables.

Switchblade

I have always thought the rattle was the CCT at the point where it contacts the guide.

I like your logic, eliminating all the variables.

Well, you may be right its steel plunger cap, againsta steel metal post on the guide. Ive heard some say they remove the steel cap and just use the rubber plunger, and no noise. But I feel with the oscillation in that area, Id be afraid that rubber would wear over time.

But why doesnt the rear tentioner have the same kronic issue, but if there is any oil flow benefit with what Im doing, where the oil exits out of the tentioner, is just above the plunger cap area , so it should get oil more also in that area.

But you know, the manuals are steel on steel in that area, and they dont make noise.

What I'd really like for someone to try is keeping the known noisey CCT, but just enlarging that hole to see if the noise goes away. I think we are all in agreeance that a new CCT will be quite. But if you can quite the noisey one with just an enlarged hole in the gasket, we have a very easy and cheap fix to one of the major complaints on the 6th gen.

spud786

Switchblade

I have always thought the rattle was the CCT at the point where it contacts the guide.

I like your logic, eliminating all the variables.

Well, you may be right its steel plunger cap, againsta steel metal post on the guide. Ive heard some say they remove the steel cap and just use the rubber plunger, and no noise. But I feel with the oscillation in that area, Id be afraid that rubber would wear over time.

But why doesnt the rear tentioner have the same kronic issue, but if there is any oil flow benefit with what Im doing, where the oil exits out of the tentioner, is just above the plunger cap area , so it should get oil more also in that area.

But you know, the manuals are steel on steel in that area, and they dont make noise.

I think if you look at the position of the front one compared to the back one you will see. The back one is positioned higher on the guide plate and does not have as much guide to control.

hondalover

What I'd really like for someone to try is keeping the known noisey CCT, but just enlarging that hole to see if the noise goes away. I think we are all in agreeance that a new CCT will be quite. But if you can quite the noisey one with just an enlarged hole in the gasket, we have a very easy and cheap fix to one of the major complaints on the 6th gen.

+1 I know its just matter of time before mine suffers the same fate ..

hondalover

What I'd really like for someone to try is keeping the known noisey CCT, but just enlarging that hole to see if the noise goes away. I think we are all in agreeance that a new CCT will be quite. But if you can quite the noisey one with just an enlarged hole in the gasket, we have a very easy and cheap fix to one of the major complaints on the 6th gen.

This is actually the better way to really check if the enlarged hole makes a difference. Someone mentioned earlier they liked your approach as it covered all the variables but actually, performing this test with a new CCT and finding it makes no noise would have you wondering whether it is due to the enlarged hole or the new CCT.

So to really be scientific you shouldn't do this with the new CCT, as you are merely introducing an extra variable leading to confusion between two possible causes of your success in removing CCT noise.

Try it with the old one first and report back.

spud786

I manually enlarged the gasket hole, the hole on the tensioner and the block is about 5mm so Im still about half of that size, this modification to the gasket doesnt effect alignment at all. It just allows more oil to flow into the tentioner, easier and faster.

Now the question does this increase in flow, force more pressure on the internals of the tentioner, and applies more pressure to the chain guide. As far as hydraulics, I say (no) with the amount ive done atleast , there's no piston or anything that that catches the increased flow of oil, the entry oil port in the tentioner runs through a tunnel in the aluminum tensioner body all the way to the end, the oil comes out of this port and lubricates the spring, and then flows back out through two oil holes where the plunger goes into the body. There's nothing really there to catch oil and force more pressure on the tentioner plunger.

Theroretically, if there was alot of pressure, it could blow the tentioner apart mechanically, cause the thing is held together by a wire c ring retaining clip. My guess is honda makes the port in the gasket really small to limit pressure, but maybe its just too small and is detrimental to the front tentioner and why it seems to be much more problematic than the rear, which is normally flooded with oil, Ive never seen the front one flooded with oil(ever). The front one just doesnt seem to see as much oil flow, so Im going to see what effect this has.

Many believe the rattle is the chain, but I proved that wrong years ago with a test, I loosened the front tentioner mounting screws 2mm , this allowed the plunger to extend 2mm and the tension seperated the tentioner from the block , then I retightend down the screws, this drove the tensioner harder into the chain, no rattle now, but a KNOCK, KNOck, and i could hear the chain riding on the guide under stress.. Thats when I knew it was not the chain rattling at all but the internals of the tentioner itself.

This tentioner I have right now, becomes noisey a few minutes after start up, after 5 miles it goes quiet, IMO, its taking that long to fill with oil, I dont know why it consistantly goes quiet after five miles, other than that reason.

And it always rattles under de-acceleration right ? So when the timing chain is under de-acceleration there's slack produce in the chain and the CCT encounters a reversed pressure apply to it. Under acceleration the chain is forced outward toward the CCT with no noise .

And one of the variables would be not enough oil ....

Exactly. One of the variables is the oil flow. Another is wear and tear. When testing any particular variable, you should only introduce or modify one at a time.

If my battery goes flat it could be the battery, the stator, the regulator, the wiring.. If I swap out the stator, the regulator and the wiring and the battery charges up well and holes its charge, I can't say whether it's due to the stator, the regulator or the wiring.. Although I can discard the battery being as being at the end of its useful life.

hondalover

What I'd really like for someone to try is keeping the known noisey CCT, but just enlarging that hole to see if the noise goes away. I think we are all in agreeance that a new CCT will be quite. But if you can quite the noisey one with just an enlarged hole in the gasket, we have a very easy and cheap fix to one of the major complaints on the 6th gen.

Yeah I know what you mean, But I think once these tentioners get up to 70 or 90,000 mile they are just shot spring tention wise. I know the rear tentioner that went out at 90,000 miles, nothing was going to fix that one, and Id never had issue with it until that time, but also no oil flow issue with that one.

You have the right idea with the manual, its a life time item. Id be happy with an acct to go seventy or 90,000 miles noise free, thats really my goal. The goal is to get the front one at the same reliability level as the rear. I just see a big difference between the two on average. Going on my 3rd front tentioner, and the 2nd one, made noise near right off the bat. Right now I have redline oil in the bike, and has proven no value with noisey tentioner.

But maybe some has a low milege tentioner Under 30,000 miles with noise and tries it. We'll see if I can obtain anything promising

Auspañol

hondalover

What I'd really like for someone to try is keeping the known noisey CCT, but just enlarging that hole to see if the noise goes away. I think we are all in agreeance that a new CCT will be quite. But if you can quite the noisey one with just an enlarged hole in the gasket, we have a very easy and cheap fix to one of the major complaints on the 6th gen.

This is actually the better way to really check if the enlarged hole makes a difference. Someone mentioned earlier they liked your approach as it covered all the variables but actually, performing this test with a new CCT and finding it makes no noise would have you wondering whether it is due to the enlarged hole or the new CCT.

So to really be scientific you shouldn't do this with the new CCT, as you are merely introducing an extra variable leading to confusion between two possible causes of your success in removing CCT noise.

Try it with the old one first and report back.

Your right I wouldnt know (really) till a considerable amount of milege.

And it always rattles under de-acceleration right ? So when the timing chain is under de-acceleration there's slack produce in the chain and the CCT encounters a reversed pressure apply to it. Under acceleration the chain is forced outward toward the CCT with no noise .

Not as a general rule , although I have heard it in the last several thousand miles on decel somewhat or like coming off a fresh restart on decel, usually all my noise has been mainly at idle, with no load on the motor(thats where its the nosiest is prior to reaching 5 mile mark off a cold start(then it goes quiet). But your right the main reason Im replacing, its starting to show up on decel (much more now) , its becoming more pronounced on decel at times, I am hearing some of that.. But I wouldnt classify tensioner noise on my vfr as very noisey on decel, compared to the crazy loud clack noise at idle in the first 5 miles, with no load on the motor, like at a stop sign.

I WISH I had known that damn oil feed hole was that retardedly tiny before I bought my APE's. Sadly, I didn't realize till I had all parts in hand and I said eff it I'm not riskin it for the ammout of work. Have new parts in hand, new parts are goin on engine! I have been curious if it has been tried and if it worked tho so keep us updated Spud and thanks!!

I know, on this particular tentioner, oil and oil flow arent going to matter its too far gone , its reached the same age level where my rear failed with noise and no hope.

Many years ago, there was a guy who said he removed the clip on his noisey tentioner, and wound the spring 5 turns tighter, no more noise. I tried this on my original replaced tensioner back at 30,000 mile when I replaced it, the thing unwound and exploded. I never could trust that I got it back to where it was, before trying the 5 turn trick.

Believe me when you remove that clip, the thing will explode and unwind, so you have to know exactly what your doing , to keep it from going BOiiiiING!!!!! try it you'll like it LOL!!!!

Anyway, that original tentioner sat for years, I just recently fiqured out make it usable and what method to use to wind the spring tighter. I actually thought I got it too tight, but when compared to this new tentioner Im about to install, the new one feels slighter tighter. But when I pull this tentioner in the bike now, I will compare the tention.

Back when I removed the original tentioner at 30,000 mile I compared that new tentioner at that time, and actually the new tentioner didnt feel as tight as the one I pulled out, and it was the one that made noise nearly right off the bat.

when I replaced the rear tentioner awhile back, I fiqured it was 50/50 whether I got a good one or not. but between added oil and a good wind on this new tentioner, maybe I get lucky this time around.

You just put it back together... there is no extra preload on the spring in its OEM form... only that which comes from pulling the plunger in and holding it with the key prior to installing on the bike (but then it releases again as you remove the key so, no preload). I have this information direct from Honda. So if you want to try the 5 turns more trick you simply start from 0 turns

spud786

And it always rattles under de-acceleration right ? So when the timing chain is under de-acceleration there's slack produce in the chain and the CCT encounters a reversed pressure apply to it. Under acceleration the chain is forced outward toward the CCT with no noise .

Not as a general rule , although I have heard it in the last several thousand miles on decel somewhat or like coming off a fresh restart on decel, usually all my noise has been mainly at idle, with no load on the motor(thats where its the nosiest is prior to reaching 5 mile mark off a cold start(then it goes quiet). But your right the main reason Im replacing, its starting to show up on decel (much more now) , its becoming more pronounced on decel at times, I am hearing some of that.. But I wouldnt classify tensioner noise on my vfr as very noisey on decel, compared to the crazy loud clack noise at idle in the first 5 miles, with no load on the motor, like at a stop sign.

Thanks for the input. I know in the future I will have to replace mine .

I don't see it mentioned but there is a reason for the small hole & that is drainage when no oil pressure, it stops the oil draining out of the tensioner. Oil pressure will always force oil into the cct but when no oil pressure it will drain out due to gravity so you will have a larger time period of low oil in cct if you enlarge the hole which will cause more wear to cct. It isn't a major issue with rear cct because it mounts so oil can't drain but the front cct will drain.

On another note seeing there mentioned here the APE tensioner is very badly engineered, they tend to leak oil from the threaded rod because the oring that squashes with the locking nut doesn't seal all the time that well on the thread of the adjusting rod. I fixed this problem but it does make adjustment a little more difficult & you do have to modify the adjuster set up. I removed the adjusting nut which is held in place with a pin which does snap easy if the top of thread does become damaged there is still enough rod for adjustment if you cut off small amount of damaged thread (damage to thread from pin may or may not happen, one of mine damaged the thread the other didn't) if your lucky & the pin isn't in a blind hole then just use pin punch to remove it but mine was in a bind hole (if a blind hole you could just drill from other side). I then removed the locking nut & replaced it with a nyloc nut (still leave oring on threaded rod) you will need to hold end of adjusted in a vise with soft jaws to wind nyloc nut down. Then use two low profile nuts opposing each other at top of threaded rod for adjustment (two nuts tightened against each other locks them so no need for stupid small weak pin).

It is harder to adjust with nyloc nut but the nyloc nut helps seal the thread & since doing this mod my adjusters don't leak oil the rear adjusted used to leak even after changing oring & even trying two orings. Another thing to do is use a honing stone to flatten bottom of nyloc nut for a better seal on oring as everything helps.

Wow APE NO !

Yeah I think most have ended up using RTV on the threads, with other bikes and the apes, the orings always end up getting easily damaged or dont hold up. I can see the rear being more troublesome, but the fronts had leakage too?

zRoYz

I don't see it mentioned but there is a reason for the small hole & that is drainage when no oil pressure, it stops the oil draining out of the tensioner. Oil pressure will always force oil into the cct but when no oil pressure it will drain out due to gravity so you will have a larger time period of low oil in cct if you enlarge the hole which will cause more wear to cct. It isn't a major issue with rear cct because it mounts so oil can't drain but the front cct will drain.

.

If thats the case, Im not sure how valueable that small hole is , as far as drain out. cause you can have no noise , stop at a fuel station for 5 minutes, restart and get the clack clack immediately after start up. But I agree, the small hole will not allow drainage as quick assuming oil is easily getting through to begin with, at the same time its going to hender oil going in, comparison a larger hole.

So it may be a wash or maybe not, its just something inquiry minds have wondered about.

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Even with a break down it just doesn't make any sense .

The front one will drain out ...

Auspañol

You just put it back together... there is no extra preload on the spring in its OEM form... only that which comes from pulling the plunger in and holding it with the key prior to installing on the bike (but then it releases again as you remove the key so, no preload). I have this information direct from Honda. So if you want to try the 5 turns more trick you simply start from 0 turns

With zero turns, the tentioner wont work at all (thats fact) I dont know how many turns honda installs, but I guarantee its not zero.

Even fully extended the windings of the spring are still under Winding pressure. other wise vibration would cause the the tensioner to screw back in and loose chain tention.

The tentioner I rewound back to oem I say was atleast 10 or 15 turns, to start.

Switchblade

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Even with a break down it just doesn't make any sense .

The front one will drain out ...

That's a great view to see where the cap goes if it falls off during CTT change out! :wacko:

Your welcome BR, now can I ship you mine(CCT's) and whats the charge for replacing the caps ?

just kiddin :goofy:

Switchblade

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Even with a break down it just doesn't make any sense .

The front one will drain out ...

That's interesting, the CCT's are in different places front to rear, could that have something to do with the noisey front? Given the rear CCT is further along the lever, the front would need more spring tension to apply the same amount of force... assuming front & rear CCT are the same part

Intstall is complete!!!!

I was alot younger the last time I did it, plus I had better vision and better lighting. but I got it done. It sucked big time though, took about 2 hours or alittle more, thats only lifting the tank and right side panel to install. I probably would not recommend that route to most though.

No noise on start up, and Idled it a good 5 minutes ot so to about 135 degrees, revved the motor a few times, very smooth.

Now heres the really bad part , upon getting the tentioner out, the cap was gone, but like last time, it was sitting in the hole. This time no cap it wasnt there, I fished with a foot or so of magnet but no luck, took a break and tried a few more times, nothing, never heard any thing drop either. So Im going to assume it will stay happy riding at the bottom of the back side of the guide guide, and will stay right there. So Im running no cap, and 2.75mm oil hole. I hate that I couldnt recover the cap,but nothing I can do.

Oh my !!!! So the CCT must be almost extended all the way out .

No the cap is only a thin peice of metal, the differnce between cap and no cap is negligible, however if the rubber tip wears, that will make the tentioner extend. It sucks but I tried to no avail. I remeber last time, that cap didnt fit tight at all, I should have glued it on.

As to the condition of the old tentioner, really nothing obvious and tention didnt seem bad or even weak, however there was some oil spooge running down the shaft , that looked dark greyish, like alot of metal friction coming from inside the tensioner. (probably from the rattling).

Switch blade, you can see in your picture , the cap has a nice channel to fall into.

Well. Im going to do a 100 mile run tommorow, to test out. That ought to also confirm whether the loose cap, is safe sitting in the channel on the back side of the guide. later on I may try and find a differnt type magnet to fish down in there, Im not sure how much wear the rubber head will take without the cap. I know years back a few removed the cap claiming no more noise, but never heard any long term reports.

If the motor dosent lock up in 100 miles, Id say the cap is safe, I have a feeling losing the cap has happened to several vfrs.

I also took an old tentioner, and tested the strength of the rubber tip, thats some strong stuff (more than expected), it ought to wear well, Im less concerned. but even if it does wear over time, 5mm of rubber runs into solid metal.

spud786

Well. Im going to do a 100 mile run tommorow, to test out. That ought to also confirm whether the loose cap, is safe sitting in the channel on the back side of the guide. later on I may try and find a differnt type magnet to fish down in there, Im not sure how much wear the rubber head will take without the cap. I know years back a few removed the cap claiming no more noise, but never heard any long term reports.

If the motor dosent lock up in 100 miles, Id say the cap is safe, I have a feeling losing the cap has happened to several vfrs.

I also took an old tentioner, and tested the strength of the rubber tip, thats some strong stuff (more than expected), it ought to wear well, Im less concerned. but even if it does wear over time, 5mm of rubber runs into solid metal.

Also considering the fact that the cam chain guide is made of some type of plastic, I don't think I'd concern myself with the rubber tip wearing.

spud786

Intstall is complete!!!!

I was alot younger the last time I did it, plus I had better vision and better lighting. but I got it done. It sucked big time though, took about 2 hours or alittle more, thats only lifting the tank and right side panel to install. I probably would not recommend that route to most though.

No noise on start up, and Idled it a good 5 minutes ot so to about 135 degrees, revved the motor a few times, very smooth.

Now heres the really bad part , upon getting the tentioner out, the cap was gone, but like last time, it was sitting in the hole. This time no cap it wasnt there, I fished with a foot or so of magnet but no luck, took a break and tried a few more times, nothing, never heard any thing drop either. So Im going to assume it will stay happy riding at the bottom of the back side of the guide guide, and will stay right there. So Im running no cap, and 2.75mm oil hole. I hate that I couldnt recover the cap,but nothing I can do.

Gotcha thanks ..

spud786

Well. Im going to do a 100 mile run tommorow, to test out. That ought to also confirm whether the loose cap, is safe sitting in the channel on the back side of the guide. later on I may try and find a differnt type magnet to fish down in there, Im not sure how much wear the rubber head will take without the cap. I know years back a few removed the cap claiming no more noise, but never heard any long term reports.

If the motor dosent lock up in 100 miles, Id say the cap is safe, I have a feeling losing the cap has happened to several vfrs.

I also took an old tentioner, and tested the strength of the rubber tip, thats some strong stuff (more than expected), it ought to wear well, Im less concerned. but even if it does wear over time, 5mm of rubber runs into solid metal.

Alt to be interesting.

Well, I think its safe to say there's a safe zone for the cap behind the guide. I rode all tight track type riding 11,500 rpm, post 100 speed, lots of hard accel and decel, and few wheelies.

As to noise, totally quiet as a mouse thus far, I even stopped for a few minutes just to see any merit in the quicker drain back theory with larger hole.

AS to the cap, the magnet I used was a small telescopic type, I even bent it to thread through the hole, no bite on anything. Ive seen some snake type flexible magnet tools, but not seen anything local, so probably would have to order online, if I ever get bold and make another attempt to recover the cap.

Thanks for the feedback. I think we all know what to do now ..

Yeah at this point intial results are positive(no detriment at all), but it will take some miles to see if lasting. I know down the road people are going to want to know how much wear shows up on the rubber plunger tip, to see if thats an alternative.

When I mentioned the dark gray oil spooge on the old tentioner shaft upon removal, I think this is from the spring rubbing and bouncing against the internal aluminum body(the clack and vibration noise) Lack of oil flow contributing to that?? I guess at this point, time well tell.

spud786

Well, I think its safe to say there's a safe zone for the cap behind the guide. I rode all tight track type riding 11,500 rpm, post 100 speed, lots of hard accel and decel, and few wheelies.

As to noise, totally quiet as a mouse thus far, I even stopped for a few minutes just to see any merit in the quicker drain back theory with larger hole.

AS to the cap, the magnet I used was a small telescopic type, I even bent it to thread through the hole, no bite on anything. Ive seen some snake type flexible magnet tools, but not seen anything local, so probably would have to order online, if I ever get bold and make another attempt to recover the cap.

I had the same issue and fished it out with the snake type magnet. It is a major PITA due to the very tight fit of the cap in the hole, but it is doable.

I know you REALLY don't want to go there again, but it'd be best if you did with the right tool.

Do you recall where you got the magnet?

Very true Not wanting to go there, and would really hurt to go through again and not retrieve

Hey Spud I have a idea to remove the metal cap . I seen a guy that had made a magnetic pickup tool by using a computer hard drive magnets. He cut them down to the size of a dime or a little smaller and drilled a hole thru the middle. He then used piano wire to bound them together. He cut the wire to about 24". So one end has the magnets and you use the other end to push it in small areas.

That hole is goes straight in and makes a hard turn , so you need something you can push in the right direction

They have these snake flexible coil spring magnet pick up tools, Im looking that direction if I make the attempt, I really want to see how the rubber tip wears, and over all hows its going before attempting to go back in. I think the cap is okay where its at. Im pretty sure if it wasnt, an issue would have already presented itself.

I don't recall the brand of mine, but THIS one looks like it should do fine

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The head looks to big to me .

So if you suspect its oil drain or supply is what causes the wear, why not swap the front & rear tensioners at the first sign of noise on the front ! If the noise doesn't move to the rear cct then you will have proved your theory !

Yeah, seen snake tools like that , I'll probably have to order online. I saw another one that keeps the magnet hidden until you push a plunger. But that one is probably the best option, or similar

Mohawk

So if you suspect its oil drain or supply is what causes the wear, why not swap the front & rear tensioners at the first sign of noise on the front ! If the noise doesn't move to the rear cct then you will have proved your theory !

You could do that(alot of work) , but if you look at the amount of people whove installed brand new front tentioners and shortly afterwards , they begin making noise again, its pretty obvious there's something directly related to the front issue, much more so than the rear, and I wouldnt label it as obvious wear. Usually you cant see anything obviously wrong.

Obviously wear is not going to be an issue with a brand new tentioner, yet in many cases brand new front tentioners will still begin to rattle not far down the road. Winter time and cold weather tends to aide in bringing out the tentioner noise issues also.

I guess a good question for everyone would be how long after installing a new front tention did it begin to make noise again?

spud786

Mohawk

So if you suspect its oil drain or supply is what causes the wear, why not swap the front & rear tensioners at the first sign of noise on the front ! If the noise doesn't move to the rear cct then you will have proved your theory !

You could do that(alot of work) , but if you look at the amount of people whove installed brand new front tentioners and shortly afterwards , they begin making noise again, its pretty obvious there's something directly related to the front issue, much more so than the rear, and I wouldnt label it as obvious wear. Usually you cant see anything obviously wrong.

Obviously wear is not going to be an issue with a brand new tentioner, yet in many cases brand new front tentioners will still begin to rattle not far down the road. Winter time and cold weather tends to aide in bringing out the tentioner noise issues also.

I guess a good question for everyone would be how long after installing a new front tention did it begin to make noise again?

Yep .....

A strong magnet helps if you will be making your own magnetic pickup tool, try to find "rare earth" type magnets which are like ten times more powerful than regular magnets so you don't have to physically place the magnet right on the object you are fishing for. Just get it near enough, and it will pull itself hard towards the item......

Old or bad computer hard drives have rare earth magnets inside them ..

Rice

I don't recall the brand of mine, but THIS one looks like it should do fine

[image: 61XHIGowm9L._SL1500_.jpg]

This is the one I ended up ordering the other day, I really couldnt find anything better, hopefully its nice skinny and long. With something like this you should be able to twist it and keep it going straight on the path. I think that was the issue with bending my telescopic type, you can only bend it one direction Once. It costed me about $18 shipped

Is the cap made of metal a magnet will attract?

Auspañol

Is the cap made of metal a magnet will attract?

Yep.

Metal or metal particles ..

So, if I understand correctly, the latest theory is that the cam chains interacting with the tensioner rails are producing some sort of vibration/resonance that shakes and rattles the spring and plunger assembly in the tensioner to produce the "bad" CCT noise that people are hearing...and that the noise does not necessarily mean that the tensioner is worn out and needs replacement??

So in other words, the tensioner noise is something similar to what dry clutch noise is on Ducatis and not a real mechanical problem......

What is so frustrating with things like these is there never seems to be a final, definite diagnosis on the problem (which is similar to all the RR and Stator problems we've been encountering with VFRs) and what really needs to happen is for Honda to "man up" to it and apply some of their engineering to investigate what the heck is happening once and for all as they did when the VFs were haveing cam problems in the 80's...... Maybe they can actually finally learn how to design proper CCT's that will stay quite for their owners once and for all (My dad had noisy CCT problems with most of his Hondas even way back to the 70's).

Heck, if they can design oval piston engines, Walking/talking humanoid robots and Formula 1 cars and engines,............. a measly thing like a CCT would be peanuts in comparison!.....

^^^ I think you got it . ^^^^

Switchblade

Metal or metal particles ..

Its not pig metal, its a pretty strong piece.

My magnetic cattle prod came in, its alittle bigger than expected, hope it works. As it wouldnt be nice to tear it back down and come up empty for the steel cap. On a side note, so far bike has been very very quiet thus far. I havent decided whether to use the cap or not, I guess I'll see if the rubber tip is showing any wear, first. But if I do use the cap, I kinda want to glue that sucker on.

I would have multiple options, I hope that will work but the head looks to big but the magnet might be strong enough to extract it.

Hey some current pic's of the modified CCT .

Magnet strength shouldnt be an issue, this magnet holds 4 lbs, but even my small telescopic magnet is more than adaquate if it had found the cap. I actually use the small magnet to install screws in the holes, keep in mind I dont remove any engine components like the airbox, so im working in a very tiny area. I use dental floss to keep the gasket on while lowering into the slot, pop in the screws, one thread, cut the floss and thread it out. Its a pain, but a nicessity to disturb as little as possible.

You could glue the gasket on and avoid the floss I suppose, I'll take a pic or 2.

I want see what the rubber end of the CCT looks like after running it with no metal doom ..

If you want to fish the cap out, you would need to remove the air box. I think that it will be easier this way.

The problem there is that the cap is almost identical diameter as the opening for the CCT. It is easy enough to get it to just under the opening, but then you need 4 hands to actually get it out. At least that's been my experience.

The magnet was too long to make the turn after entering the hole, even if removing the airbox , you'd really have to force it and may not of got it back out, espcially with the cap attached.

I wish Id of just not bothered , the cap is happy , and just more pain for nothing. there was no wear on the rubber tip.

Rice

If you want to fish the cap out, you would need to remove the air box. I think that it will be easier this way.

The problem there is that the cap is almost identical diameter as the opening for the CCT. It is easy enough to get it to just under the opening, but then you need 4 hands to actually get it out. At least that's been my experience.

Ive had the cap fall off before, but it was sitting right there in the hole, I just grabbed it with a pair of needle nose, just an FYI for everyone, Ive pulled two differnt front tentioners and the cap fell off both times(recovered it the first time), thats a pretty high precentage rate of losing the cap.

But if I could have just gotten the cap in the area, I could have used a differnt tool or magnet, unfortunately that cattle prod magnet was way bigger than the picture looked, the magnet itself was (correction) 2 and 1/2 inches long, if it had beem shorter, it would have easily made the turn.

[image: post-6784-0-18629700-1387917348.jpg]

[image: post-6784-0-84978700-1387917370.jpg]

spud786

The magnet was too long to make the turn after entering the hole, even if removing the airbox , you'd really have to force it and may not of got it back out, espcially with the cap attached.

I wish Id of just not bothered , the cap is happy , and just more pain for nothing. there was no wear on the rubber tip.

I was afraid of that that's why I told you about the piano wire and computer hard drive magnets. I have personally seen it work in very tight areas.

Rubber tip looks Ok.

I hear ya, if there was a smaller magnet of that type it would have been okay, but it was actually bigger than the original retail picture. Attempting a make shift rig with harddrive magnets and piano wire or some such may work(but you need to be able to drive it through directional, a long skinny coil spring would work to thread through, with magnets well attached, but I dont have anything like that readily available, and what if that got tangled up or or piece broke.I felt a true built snake magnet was the safest choice.

That rubber tip picture was from the old tentioner, but the tip didnt really show any marking thus far on the new one, which is a a good sign compared to instant disentigration wear. But Id say 40 or 50,00 miles there will be a good mark atleast.

Will the oil break down the the rubber tip ?

Its really strong stuff, much stronger material than say Oring or rubber gasket material. Someone mentioned its the same rubber stuff the actual cam chain rides against.

I cut one apart , which wasnt easy, and about 5mm of rubber removal runs straight into a steel shaft, so if the rubber did somehow split of fail, it wouldnt be catastrophic.

I found a small snake magnetic tool , much much smaller(very skinny) than the one I bought, and its near the same length, about $12 shipped from tooltopia.com

Great web site tooltopia.com

The snake was way too big, so I ordered a Worm. its like a coat hanger only more flexible, with a magnet on the end.

[image: post-6784-0-92826200-1389402141.jpg]

Good luck!

That should do it !!!!

Well, no luck, cant find anything in there. 3 times, have to call it quits.

Hmmmm .

MVinOZ

Switchblade

[image: 072413top-i.jpg]

Even with a break down it just doesn't make any sense .

The front one will drain out ...

That's interesting, the CCT's are in different places front to rear, could that have something to do with the noisey front? Given the rear CCT is further along the lever, the front would need more spring tension to apply the same amount of force... assuming front & rear CCT are the same part

I don't know where that depiction of the VTEC engine comes from... looks like the one floating around they say is of the new 8th gen VFR800F.

If you check out the microfiche, the front one is definitely pushing on the extreme end of the guide/lever/shoe/thingy...

A picture = 1000 words

[image: 65py.jpg]

Well the microfiche drawing is orientated the other way around so you've got to imagine it like this...

[image: v7pz.jpg]

Either way there's not much oil flow up into that front CCT... not at that angle and location... and there aren't many places the end cap could have disappeared to in there... maybe it wasn't on when the CCT in question was installed previously. I know of someone who did that unkowingly (or too many beers while working on the bike)... he found the cap later under a bench... has reported no issues... although I'm not so sure a chunk of that hard rubber wouldn't cause havock if prying loose and wedging itself bewteen chain and sprocket teeth...

I can tell there is very good oil flow now, Ive taken it out 3 times looking for the cap, its well soaked and noise free . Operation has been perfect other than trying to find the missing cap. The drain out theory has turned out to be a non issue, atleast thus far. Id say that issue would show up very quickly if it was an issue.

The cap was on when I installed a cct several years ago, also if the cap had been missing in that 70.000 mile period would be some evidence of a mark on the rubber tip, but it was clean. (I looked specificly for that).

Unfortunately, the picture is not as simple, I guess in reality, cause I didn't come up with anything. Im sure its in there somewhere, but 3 times pulling a cct Is enough.

You think it mite have fallen out when you remove it the first time and its under the t-stat housing ?

Ive looked down in there , but I kind of doubt it. I think its inside somewhere on the back side of that chain guide, cause its a very narrow fit upon removal and the cap is barely a snug fit, so the cap catches and falls off , it falls off very easy. Happened to me the last time I pulled the cct, but the cap was sitting right on the guide at point of contact. I noticed last time I installed it, I thought man that's not very snug, should have glued it.

as soon as It came out of the hole this time I looked to see if the cap was there, and it wasn't, so I doubt it fell off after getting out of the hole.

10-4

I think the issue is trying to make the magnet tool travel the back side of the guide. the guide is flexible and will tilt one way or the other and your magnet will then drop into the gap and enter where the chain actually is. Keep in mind as soon as you enter the cct Hole, there is a left hand hard left turn . I think this turn creates issue with maintaining travel down the back side of the guide. Ive stuck the magnet in far enough, but just not picking up anything. I think using TUBING with a magnet duct taped might be better, I think anything metal, is going to have the flaw issue, of dropping off the back side of the guide and falling into a crevice gap by not being flexible enough (is a pretty open area, not just a narrow passage). My guess the Cap is all the way down at the bottom of the back side of the guide. If I could have gotten that Big snake tool in there its big enough to travel the whole way, with out risk if falling off the guide. So I think too small of magnet is an issue with falling in gaps along the guide.

You need a directional snake magnet... like endoscopes are directional... hey... an endoscope would help locate it / confirm it's actually there... drop her off at the local hospital... :goofy:

Here is the snake I used. No manufacturer name - Just picked up the first thing in the local auto store.

Diameter of the magnetic head is 17mm.

If memory serves, I incerted it about 7 inches until it reached the cap.

And there appears to only be one place for the cap to settle - At the bottom of the channel bove the chain guide.

I've tested this theory repeatedly because I kept dropping the cap while trying to position it to enter the hole.

I'd caution against ad-hoc solutions with tubing and small magnets. A small magnet can get attached to something ferrous other than the cap or just fall off the tube and filter down into the engine and srew something up.

[image: magneticsnake_zpsa185f7e1.jpg]

As you have run the engine since dropping the cap down there, could the vibration and movement of the cam chain guide caused it to wedge tight against the guide and the cylinder head casing and maybe why the tool is not picking it up? Are you feeling anything at all that's attracting the magnetic head of the snake tool?

The diameter of my Big snake is 13mm, the length though was like 60mm , if it was a 10mm shorter it probably would have worked. Just toolong to make that hard turn

spud786

The diameter of my Big snake is 13mm, the length though was like 60mm , if it was a 10mm shorter it probably would have worked. Just toolong to make that hard turn

"That's what she said"

Sorry

:goofy:

Before I ran the motor I used a magnet that went atleast 5 or 6 inches or so and couldn't pick anything up, that's why I ordered the snake. Rices cap maybe didn't fall all the way down, but yeah at this point mine is all the way down I suspect, and may be wedged to where a smaller magnet cant get it..

As to your question can I feel anything, its hard to tell, cause have had the small magnet go off the side if the guide and enter the chain area, and attach, and I try to center it and yeah occasionally I hit something but it doesn't budge, I do think the large snake, if you can get it in, will track the guide better and also have more pulling power too.

SEBSPEED

spud786

The diameter of my Big snake is 13mm, the length though was like 60mm , if it was a 10mm shorter it probably would have worked. Just toolong to make that hard turn

"That's what she said"

Sorry

:goofy:

This was the easiest way I found to change the CCT without throttle body removal....trying to cut corners just took more time:

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/76-cam-chain-tensioner-without-throttle-body-removal/

[image: gallery_1591_3509_1653019.jpg]

You only enlarge the hole in the gasket and NOT the in the CCT right spud786 ?

Yeah, I made the hole in the gasket right between 2.5mm and 3mm (2.75mm) that seems just right. yours making noise?

you'll see the gasket is only about a .5mm pin hole.

spud786

Yeah, I made the hole in the gasket right between 2.5mm and 3mm (2.75mm) that seems just right. yours making noise?

you'll see the gasket is only about a .5mm pin hole.

Yeah mostly when the outside temp below 30 degree's . I'm not cheap but don't like to waste money on something that a simple solution can fix .

why is that tensioner missing the retaining ring?

I don't think oil flow is the whole issue, but it should help a lot on the front. I had a rear tentioner go out at 90,000 miles and the rear is normally flooded with oil, it was actually knocking more than rattling. After getting it out, did I see anything obviously wrong? NOpe

Ofcourse presently I have a combo of factors changed, new tentioner, no cap and increased oil flow. very quite , no noise.

several years ago there was someone who said they removed the cap and had no more noise, but that was never widespread tested with an existing noisey tentioner. I may eventually order a cap, and take one more shot at finding the missing cap. course I have to spend another $20 on a different type snake if I come across one.. but if the cap comes out with your tentioner, Id look at glueing it on. The risk of losing is about 75% chance. I think BR has replaced several tentioners, Id be will to bet he's lost a cap. ask him

That's from a previous post where the guy was going to disassemble the CCT.

It was a good pic of the oil hole to the CCT.

Theres one in port and two out ports, one on each side

[image: post-6784-0-89868200-1391656072.jpg]

Sorry to come in on the end of the conversation. So, enlarging the gasket makes a difference?

spud786

Theres one in port and two out ports, one on each side

Is the metal cover in this photo still on or is it off ?

Please let us know if you think this makes a real difference.

And switchblade might appreciate this, what near a year later, Made the 5th attempt to retrieve the missing cap and walla I got it. I ended up taking the worm , cause that was the only thing I could get down in there , but the magnet was to small, So I duck taped and tie wrapped a big magnet to the worm and walla I get it out. It actually wasnt deep, there must be a channel off to the side, the small magnet I guess kept missing it.

Switchblade was confused , he thought the one I found on the shelf was it, but it wasn't, there was still one in the motor.

But yay, I finally got it!!

Anyway, this kind of event, jacked my whole thread, it was about the 2.75mm oil port modification. that has done very well.

Glad to hear about the cap. I know that feeling when something drops in the engine and even though you hear no bad noises or such you still wonder what harm might be going on that will eventually rear it's head and the relief when you finally fish it out. I will be replacing front and rear CCT's this off season and have been watching this thread. Seems like so far all has been good. It makes sense that drenching the CCT in more oil can only help. How many miles so far have you been running with the enlarged hole mod?

been about 10,000 miles

spud786

And switchblade might appreciate this, what near a year later, Made the 5th attempt to retrieve the missing cap and walla I got it. I ended up taking the worm , cause that was the only thing I could get down in there , but the magnet was to small, So I duck taped and tie wrapped a big magnet to the worm and walla I get it out. It actually wasnt deep, there must be a channel off to the side, the small magnet I guess kept missing it.

Switchblade was confused , he thought the one I found on the shelf was it, but it wasn't, there was still one in the motor.

But yay, I finally got it!!

Anyway, this kind of event, jacked my whole thread, it was about the 2.75mm oil port modification. that has done very well.

Yeah !!!!!

I'll have to re-read this thread ad find out what exactly was enlarged. The gasket hole or the oil flow hole on the CCT, or both? Cliff Notes version anywhere?

Just enlarge the gasket holes .

Well 10,000 miles is proof enough. Even if it extends the longevity to 10,000 miles it is still a major improvement. Amazing how Honda, or any manufacturer for that matter, doesn't monitor forums of their products to get feedback and fixes. If their under lubricating CCT's are is a genearal rule, which seems likely since when you look at other Honda model forums you hear the same complaint, then this something they should do some research on.

Front tensioner

With the original oil port hole in the METAL gasket is a pin hole, the theory is its limiting oil flow and as a result, is causing dry tensioners and or premature wear which results in the internals of the tensioner rattling. The rattle can be any where from a KLACK KLack noise, to actually hearing the spring inside the tensioner Twanging. By increasing the size of the gasket hole to 2.75mm. you are dramatically increasing oil flow through the tensioner, with the expectation to eliminate tensioner replacement or dramatically improve the life of a noise free environment, and use any oil that you want.

Some thought there would be negative side effects, like once engine stopped, oil would drain out of the tensioner because of the larger hole, Ive seen zero negativity only perfection of a noise free environment thus far.

On a side note what people typically see with tentioner rattle, is they start the bike noise free and with a few minutes later they hear klack klack noise, and 5 miles down the road it goes quiet , then they just have intermittent klack at times. Certain oils to seem to have an effect with this type of noise, but with the increased oil flow, oil choice shouldn't matter, cause plenty of oil is getting into the tensioner with the mod.

Necro thread revive!

But I am curious to know how the tensioners are holding up as I am replacing a friends

I replaced my front one a couple of K miles ago with the gasket hole mod and no problems to report