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5Th Gen Valve Adjustment. . .valves Louder Afterward?

25 posts Started 30 Apr 2014 Last recovered post 15 Mar 2016 Wayback Machine snapshot 11 Sep 2017

#1

Scrolled through the first 3 pages, nothing on this that i saw, if it's covered somewhere, shoot me a link or a search query for it, thanks!

Right, so, last year I finally bought myself a VFR. I loves it. it's a Pearl Green 2000 with (now) 48,700km on the clock. I loves it.

I decided to check the valves this spring, and was rewarded with 8 exhaust valves out of spec (they were .008", where the spec is .012" +/- .001").

So, I came here, got myself a manual, and went through it as methodically as possible. checked and rechecked everything. torqued down the cam holders as detailed in the manual. put it all togetther nice and awesome.

and now it's a fair bit louder than before. The sound is what a guy would imagine a cam lobe smacking a tappet would be.

I thought perhaps my timing was off (this sound genuinely worries me) so I went back into the front of the engine, where it is loudest, and checked the timing marks. I got this:
[image: 10257711_10152380379407534_2336298078642]

Now that looks pretty damn good to me. Maybe my eyes are off though.

I rechecked the gaps as well. they are, every one of them, .012" with the cylinder in question set to TDC of compression stroke (both sets of cams pointed upward and away from the tappets). They all feel the same, with the same resistance. I must say, I think I did a pretty damn good job.

If it's not the timing, and not the clearances, the only other thing I can think of is that I may have overtorqued the cam holders. I put a small amount of oil on the bolts that hold them on, and then torqued them to the 9 ft.lb spec. I realize that probably gives a true torque rating of ~15 ft.lbs, and that overtorquing the holders could affect oil clearances at the very least.

Should I pull the holders, brake clean the bolt holes/bolts, and retorque them to 9 ft.lbns dry (or use some loktite?)

I have friends who are saying to simply button it up and have at er, that the sound I am hearing is from the increased clearances causing me to hear the lobe as it smacks the valve tappet. But I don't think that's the right move. my gut and ears say something is wrong. I think something is wrong.

#2

How's your feeler gauge technique? Seriously you should only feel a very slight drag if at all. If you have to apply any pressure to move it it's too big.

I would rather have my valves a bit on the loose side on a VFR. That way I know there's no chance they're staying open. It's a different ballgame on a Ducati.

#3

Tear it back down and recheck all valve clearance. Timing looks good .

#4

clearances are good. a .012" gauge has some friction, it basically pushes the oil film back along the feeler gauge as you push it into the gap. a .011" gauge is loose. a .013" gauge is tight and won't go in. I can push them back and forth with a little resistance once they are through. I used this same technique when adjusting the valves on my 6BT cummins.

I use angled gauges, but they still have a habit of curling as you shove em in there. they are tougher to pull out than go in.

I'm gonna check the back side tomorrow. Couldn't get out there today.

Edited May 1, 2014 by SlimWhitey
#6

As you are basing this on the "sound" of your engine, is there someone who could listen to it that has an ear for a VFR and let you know if it's normal or not before you go tearing the top end down again?

#7

Is the valve lash know for getting tighter or looser between adjustments on the vfr's?

#8

why did you have to retorque the cam caps, or just checked them before measuring?


vfr350

Is the valve lash know for getting tighter or looser between adjustments on the vfr's?

shim under bucket designs virtually never loosen, unless cam journal wear , they only tighten as a norm.

#9
spud786

why did you have to retorque the cam caps, or just checked them before measuring?

vfr350

Is the valve lash know for getting tighter or looser between adjustments on the vfr's?

shim under bucket designs virtually never loosen, unless cam journal wear , they only tighten as a norm.

I had to remove the cam covers to adjust the exhaust valves. When I put them back on, I torqued them with oil on the bolts. Manual does not say oil on the bolts. This can skew a torque wrench reading, tell you you are at 9 ft.lbs for instance, and being at 15 or so (I dunno the exact amount of error, it'd be different for the 15W40 oil I used, vs something like a mineral oil.

Skids

As you are basing this on the "sound" of your engine, is there someone who could listen to it that has an ear for a VFR and let you know if it's normal or not before you go tearing the top end down again?

not a one of em. I own the only VFR in town to my knowledge. The Honda dealership doesn't have one person who has even cracked a valvecover on a gear driven one.

#10

I'm assuming I can be of no assistance cos I don't even know where Prince Albert or SK are!

#11

Always thought tortured bolts not dry or even with threadlocker gave more accurate results. Anyone else care to chime in on that?

#12

Found this

Friction

Since torquing methods are the most common means of loading a bolt, friction is one of the critical factors in a majority of bolted joints. There are three general ways friction can cause problems in a bolted joints; it prevents a good portion of the applied force from being used to stretch the bolt, it decreases the accuracy with which all the bolts in an application can be loaded, and it causes galling of the threads.

A commonly accepted general statement says that only 10% of applied torque is transferred to force that actually stretches the bolt. Various friction losses account for the other 90% of the applied force. The friction between the threads of the bolt and nut accounts for roughly 40% of the losses, and the other 50% occurs between the nut and the mating surface on the flange. The word roughly is used here because in actuality, some of the friction forces are transferred to heat and other forms of energy. That figure of 10% can be drastically reduced by any number of factors such as poor surface finishes, lack of a proper lubricant, etc. This narrow margin of useful load has to be protected so the bolt can do its job, and to do this, care has to be taken to keep the effects of friction to a minimum.

Not only does friction reduce the amount of load that can be applied to the bolt, it also reduces the consistency with which a load can be applied. A mechanic using a torque wrench can not tell which bolts are subjected to more friction; the wrench indicates the torque applied to the bolt, not the actual tensile load the bolt is subjected to. Even if all the bolts on a single flange are initially torqued to the same value, friction can cause a wide variation in loads from bolt to bolt. The result is uneven compression on a gasket, damaged flanges, or the compression on the flange and gasket is nowhere near the minimum required to achieve a seal.

If enough pressure is applied, it is possible to actually fuse the threads of a nut and bolt assembly, and also the contact area between the bolt head (or nut) and flange. This is called galling; the load between the surfaces increases to a point where they actually weld themselves together. If galling occurs during assembly, a dramatic drop occurs in the amount of applied torque that is actually transferred to tensile stress. Most, if not all, of the applied energy is absorbed by friction as the metal parts fuse together. If severe galling occurs, the threads can no longer move relative to each other and the bolt can no longer be stretched via torquing. Increasing the torque applied to the bolt only increases torsional stresses but doesn't create any increase in tensile stress in the bolt. Galling can be reduced by decreasing the thread pitch, changing the bolt or nut material and by using a lubricant.

These friction losses are caused by a number of things. Surface finish is one; rough finishes can create higher friction in both the threads and the contact area between the bolt head (or nut) and flange. This is one reason flat washers are sometimes recommended under the head of the bolt and the nut; they provide a flatter, smoother surface resulting in lower surface friction.

The base material of the nut and bolt is another consideration. Given the same size and thread design, there can be considerable differences in the coefficient of friction of a bolt depending on its base material. Coating or plating a bolt can dramatically change its coefficient of friction, even if the base material is the same. Also consider that the nut is not necessarily made from the same material as the bolt. To decrease the coefficient of friction and to reduce the chance of galling, the engineer may specify a different nut material (with suitable strength characteristics) instead of one made from the same material as the bolt. For example, an ASTM A193, grade B7 bolt is a high strength, low alloy steel is sometimes used with a 300 series stainless steel nut to reduce galling.

A proper lubricant is one of the primary tools to reduce the problems caused by friction. In most instances, the use of a lubricant on a bolt lowers the coefficient friction when compared to the same bolt assembled dry. As coefficient of friction decreases, more of the torque applied is converted to tensile stress. If a mechanic uses a torque wrench to tighten two bolts, one with lube and one without, the unlubricated bolt will have a lower load than the lubricated bolt, even though the torque wrench indicates both are torqued to the same value. On the other side of the coin, the lower coefficient of friction makes it possible to apply the same load to the lubricated bolt with a lower torque than the unlubricated bolt would require.

Lubricants increase the accuracy of the torquing method used. The engineer calculates the torque required to achieve a certain load on a bolt, assuming a certain coefficient of friction which can vary widely on a dry bolt. The use of a lubricant increases the consistency in the coefficient of friction, and reduces the chances of galling. This consistency makes it more likely that the desired preload is achieved at the calculated torque value. On a flange with 12 bolts coated with a proper lubricant, it is more likely that the applied load will be closer to the calculated value, ensuring that the gasket stress is sufficient to maintain a tight seal. Not only is the achieved load closer to what is anticipated, but the variation in load between the bolts in the flange is reduced, ensuring uniform gasket compression. Without the accuracy provided by lubricants, the engineer and mechanic would be shooting in the dark trying to calculate bolt loads.

The choice of lubricant is based on, among other things, the operating temperature, media the bolt could be exposed to and coefficient of friction of the lube. If a lube is applied beyond its recommended temperature, the coefficient of friction and its lubrication properties will change. Note that the lubricant may start to break down at higher temperatures, so the coefficient of friction is usually only accurate at or around room temperature. Some applications require that only certain lubricants can be used because of safety or operational concerns. For example, nickel anti-seizes and other similarly made types of lube cannot be used if they are going to be exposed to chlorine, because of the risk of chemical attack or a severe reaction. The coefficient of friction for a lubricant can vary, the degree of which depends on its design. A product with minimal variation between the minimum and maximum coefficient offers the best consistency. Better efficiency, meaning lower friction losses, is achieved with lubricants having the lowest coefficient of friction.

#13

I always set my valves with quite a bit of drag on the feeler gauge. But the method of "a .011" gauge is loose. a .013" gauge is tight and won't go in"

should work fine. And you should lessen the torque settings when the bolts are lubed. I would stay away from any type of thread locker on those bolts.

I think you'll strip the threads out of the head before you get the cam bolts tight enough to cause problems with not enough clearance.

It's possible that the engine was "too quiet" with the valves running on the tight side of clearance and you got used to hearing it. Now that it is as loose

as it should be, you're hearing how they normally sound. Maybe.

#14

Valve clearances also tend to get tighter as the seating surface of the valve wears into the seat. This is why the exhaust valves tend to get tighter faster as they wear more due to the heat of the exhaust gases moving past the open valve.

#15

went through it all, rechecked all of the clearances. they're all good. Cleaned the bolts, brake cleaned the holes, buttoned it up properly, ran it for about a minute and then changed the oil (brake clean and oil don't do well together, best to get it out. besides, i was due for a change anyway).

It runs marginally quieter now, but maybe that's just my mind playing tricks. regardless, it's done right and proper now so I don't really care how it sounds. what was wrong is now right, and it runs like a champ. I did not notice when I was obssessing over it how much better. Much less surge (still a tiny one, and it ain't plugs cause those got changed too while I was in there), and the idle is higher now, oddly enough (was 1300, now 1500).
Thing just runs better.

and that's makes me happeh. :D

#16
SlimWhitey

went through it all, rechecked all of the clearances. they're all good. Cleaned the bolts, brake cleaned the holes, buttoned it up properly, ran it for about a minute and then changed the oil (brake clean and oil don't do well together, best to get it out. besides, i was due for a change anyway).

It runs marginally quieter now, but maybe that's just my mind playing tricks. regardless, it's done right and proper now so I don't really care how it sounds. what was wrong is now right, and it runs like a champ. I did not notice when I was obssessing over it how much better. Much less surge (still a tiny one, and it ain't plugs cause those got changed too while I was in there), and the idle is higher now, oddly enough (was 1300, now 1500).

Thing just runs better.

and that's makes me happeh. :D

I assume you've reduced the idle to its proper value. Balanced the SVs too?

#17

I wouldn't worry about your work. Sounds like you did it right. If the engine sounds smooth once you get the revs above 2-3000 rpm I'm sure it's fine. I rode a lot of Triumphs years ago and the ones that had a nice quiet valve train were always gutless. The noisy ones were always much faster. Better loose, than too tight.

#18

Now that this is settled, want to come do my valve job? :)

#19

I had my valves adjusted and they found 4 of them tight. I think the VFR has slightly more valve noise than before. I really can't tell if it is real or just me. I ride the VFR - all seems well. If the VFR runs well - I would not worry about. It looks like you did a good job.

#20
thtanner

Now that this is settled, want to come do my valve job? :)

I'd be happy to, if you don't mind flying me from central Canada, to your location, and flying me back!

#21

My VFR and Hawk GT were the same way when I did the valves on them. I've never owned a Honda that didn't have loud valves, even my Element is that way.

#22

when you say "all" valves you are referring to ex. only? pretty sure in. are a different (closer) spec

#23

Yes, the Intakes were spot on.

regardless, I've done nearly 1,000km on them now with no issues that seem to be related to the valvetrain.

That said, a new one has cropped up. So there'll be another new topic for diag'ing that one.

#24

Hey Guys,

Great post here. I checked my valves at 36,000ish and am now doing them again at 78,000ish Km and found quiet a few tight ones. Intake on cylinder #3 being the worst. (0.003" !!!) Was trying to figure how things would get tighter until I read the post about seats and valves wearing and it made perfect sense. Great info. Guess I'm pulling cams.................................................

#25

The valves clearances tighten and get quieter as they wear. It's not unusual for the valve ticking to be louder after an adjustment. If it's more than that, check them again. If your top end pull is the same or more, you're ok. Loose valves will cause the engine to have more low end, not top end.

End of thread · 25 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 11 Sep 2017