Electrickery - ffs!! Battery charge issues

2000 vfr fi

Non standard reg/rec - looks to be an aftermarket upgrade of sorts - will get the name in a bit

Noticed HUD lights seemed dim and she had been cutting out from cold for a few days but thought not much of it as the weather as changed for the colder.

Took her out - stopped at post office - wouldn't turn over - no solenoid - clock reset - bugger. Got a bump and road her to the boat yard and stick the battery on charge - charger claimed battery was 50%

She almost survived the ride home - the tacho started hitting zero despite being running and she cut out just as I got home as luck would have it.

Stuck battery on charge overnight then left it for a day to settle and see what she read.

Was reading 12.8 which isn't so bad in my books. 12.5 with key in though and 12v with lights on - so an expected drop but not the brightes of batteries it seems. Bike turned over and started but I left it at that cos I had other stuff to do.

So fairing off later and performed the following tests.

Checked reg rec connectors. All looked ok with no signs of overheating or corrosion - cleaned em up anyway.

Switched her on with lights on and let her sit for a few mins before firing up to see if battery was uttterly knacked. Voltage droped to the 11s but she started

With no lights at 3000rpm voltage was 13.4 - with lights on it dropped to 12.3

With no lights at 5000rpm voltage was 12 then 11 then 12.3 then basically couldnt makes it's mind up but never under 11 - with lights I got 10/11/12/10 - again all over the place.

Bloody weird!

I'm unsure if a dodgy batter would cause this. Poor girl just isn't charging when riding.

So.........

Then onto stator

Resistance between yellow wires was approx 0.3 to 0.5 ohms so not bad really

There was no draw/continuity from the wires to ground so all seems good there then.

I didn't test the voltages from the stator/alternator when running - I'd run out of juice at that point!! I assume they'll be 60v? I can test this tomorrow if it's important.

Now the Reg/rec

Now for some reason I tested the voltages from the the reg rec on the same yellow wires - I got readings of 11.6v - 25v and 25v approx - the 11.6 was the only one that seems to ground when I tested it against earth for continuity.

Are all three supposed to have continuity to ground? Only one did.

The other wires coming from the reg/rec - two red and two green - no idea what they do or what to test there.

There was no drain on the battery with ignition off and when on only minor from clock.

have checked fuses and connections and solenoid etc.

That's all the info I can get for now.

I'm optimistically inclined towards battery ut not goot at bike electrics. Are then any more conclusive tests I can do. I know everyone will shout replace the reg rec but it's a recent looking unit and an upgrade it seems.

So what's next move? More stator tests - how? More reg rec tests? How? Just chuck a new batttery in? She's been fine for months and now this - grrr.

I've the batery charging - again cos she discharged during these few tests but I have nothing conclusive.

I throw myself at your expertise and mercy - I'm also typing this very late and very tired after much of a faffy day

These issues have been well covered in the electrical forum:

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/forum/7-electrical/

Offhand I would say to get the battery charged then take it to someone who can load test it.  That's the definitive answer if it's still good.  If not, replace - then see what your charging voltages look like.  From what you posted previously, they look low.  I would indeed check the stator output at idle and 5,000 rpm.  One other thing to look at are grounds - follow the battery negative to the frame, remove and inspect.  If that all checks out, go through the pinned posts in the electrical forum and you should get it sorted. 

"The Drill"

I wrote this procedure a while ago -- check it out...... 

Sorry for your electrical troubles. Well, looks like you gotta do…. “The Drill.”

Go through all your connectors for burnt leads, dig deep. Crispy wires? Not good. Your gonna have to fix that!  

Then---Go through this starting point quick list.  You will need a multimeter too.

Steps:

- Recharge battery overnite - then to take it to Autozone, Batterys Plus or similar to load test. -- Good? Bad? – An iffy battery can fake you out and act like a bad R/R. Buy new if needed. --GOOD BATTERY IS THE FIRST THING!

- With good battery fire it up, warm up for a minute or two.

These are R/R quick checks---

--- With voltmeter at battery get voltages -- idle volts? 5000 rpm volts? What’s the numbers? Should be in 13ish min idle and in 14s at revs. If in the 12s at idle, try at 1900 rpm. (It’s not unusual for the system to be in discharge or no charge at idle.)

- Check stator

- 1. Pull connector apart. Set meter to resistance. Check pin to pin stator side, 3 yellow wires, A to B, B to C, C to A. What’s the numbers? 3 separate readings --Should be less than 1.0 ohms.  (Engine off)

- 2. Check continuity from each A,B,C pin stator side to ground, -- -should be infinity - nada nothing. no continuity.  --   3 separate checks. (Engine off, again connector is apart)

- 3. Crank it back up. Do another pin to pin thing, but set meter on AC volts. idle and 5000 rpms. What's da numbers? Should start 15 -20ish and climb 50ish and more.  Again – 3 readings stator side connector and still apart.

- Repeat hot if you dont find anything wrong. Sometimes the stator will be fine cold and be a problem hot. 

(If you find the probem cold, you dont have to redo this hot)

This quick list will catch the obvious stuff, but if you need to dig deeper check this chart. (Some guys like this chart, my taste, I don’t care for it.)

http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

6 hours ago, skulkerboyo

The other wires coming from the reg/rec - two red and two green - no idea what they do or what to test there.

As you have a 2000 VFR you should have black wire also.  Just check the harness block connector for it.  If its in the harness block connector and not on the regulator side then its been replaced at some time, like most, with an earlier model replacement, or maybe even a MOSFET style unit that has no need for the black wire.  Its not critical but the later 2000+ regulator does at least try to manage itself. 

The red/green wires are your positive/negative. 2 each because 1 pair leads direct into the electrics and the other pair are supposed to lead to the battery but after reading all that above stuff about crappy VFR wiring, specifically poor Earthing, you'll get an understanding of the VFR Achilles heel.

cheers

I'm buying a battery before I take this further boys - will report back once it's in. Off to italy for a week though . . . . .

This is my RR by the way

http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/RR53.html

Shoul I have continuity from the yellow wires coming from the RR (not from the stator) to ground? I only have continuity on on of them which seems odd to me - Have checked with pos and neg reversed on multimeter.

1 hour ago, skulkerboyo

This is my RR by the way

http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/RR53.html

MOSFET, that's good.   Be advised that much info posted here will be for the older style RR and mosfet has some desirable functions that may confuse readings.

Eg: if your stator is faulty, mosfet will invisibly compensate and go from 3 phase to single phase. less watts but it will work. Its normal that Low engine rpm say 3k will produce more voltage than 7k and it runs much cooler. The mosfet will detect a bad output load and shut down for a period to protect itself. This may confuse you into thinking its faulty but I'd say confirm everything else is ok before you change it.  I've been there and yep, a VFR earthing problem, again.

Ah that's interesting then. I should focus on the stator for now then.  Should be able to run her up tonight as battery has been on trickle charge all day.  

I should test the volts from the stator then as it's the only stator test I missed. 

If it passes I should assume battery and cross fingers. 

Is there a guide for troubleshooting a mosfet RR? 

Also will this make it a pta getting a solid reading in daily use with a voltmeter

And finally.  

Earthing.  Where to check.  Follow black wire from battery.  Horn packed up a couple weeks ago.  Fuse in tact.  Culprit? 

I've ordered a new battery anyway. 

A good idea of readings across a battery for a mosfet rr will be useful as will a good idea of how much I can attach to it. Want to fit heated grips and a USB charger combined with a voltmeter. 

OK so

Stator at idle is putting out approx16/17 on all three wires

At 5k it puts out 50ish

So I think that's ok??

With the stator connected to the RR I get 7s and 8s - how's that? Is that fine?

Now with the bike idling and the connector disconnected I get 10 and 9 and 9 to a ground point - am I supposed to get a voltage from a disconnected stator to ground? is this confirmation of a leak?

All the resistances are fine and there is infinite resistance to ground .. . .

Really confused now

As before with the lights off but tha tbattery fully charged I'm getting above 13 across the battery terminals but with lights on it drops to 12ish then keeps dropping.

The mosfet rr probably makes this harder to diagnose - so based on my first post and this one is there anything that stands out?

I have a new battery coming tomorrow but the drain with lights on seems wayyyyy to excessive.

I had a look for any dodgy grounds but not sure where to look - only interesting thing is my horn switch has had it - horn works when tested alone but the wires get nada

I can;t think of anything else to test - I've followed all the guides and have a sheet of all recorded voltages etc but it's all mostly in my first post.

Should I look at replacing the RR despite the apparent reliablity of the mosfet one or start looking for shorts and if so then where and how?

I'm comfortable with my multimeter and can happily strip this that and t'other but bugger me if I can't conclusively find anything online.

Hopefully one of the sages of VFR will be able to pick through the info I have here and give some advice - I still find this buit from earlier testing interesting . . .

"

Now the Reg/rec

Now for some reason I tested the voltages from the the reg rec on the same yellow wires - I got readings of 11.6v - 25v and 25v approx - the 11.6 was the only one that seems to ground when I tested it against earth for continuity.

"

Head scratcher?

My vote is once charged to install the new battery.  Fire it up and check the voltage across the battery.  If in the 14v to 14.5v  range just off idle and it's steady as rpm rises all should be good.  If not, check the voltage right out of the r/r.  If similar to the battery, replace r/r.   If good, check wiring / connections between the r/r and the battery.   Oxgard is great for treating connectors - reduces corrosion and is conductive.   It can be found at most Ace/True Value stores or home centers. 

So did these tests with new battery and bike hot

Voltages etc

no lights

Idle = 12.7 assume 0.1 lost to voltmeter

3000 rpm = 12.8

5000 rpm = 12.9

But they do climb slowly then drop back depending on throttle

With day lights

Idle = 12.4

3000 rpm = 12.8

5000 rpm = 12.9

Full beams

Idle = 12.1

3000 rpm = 12.4

5000 rpm = 12.4

Stator with engine at 100+ celcius all resistances checked out normal

Voltages across three connectors disconnected were

Idle

16 across all approx.

At 5000rpm all 60V

Connected to RR the stator voltages were

8.6  11 and 8.6

Am yet to test the voltages from RR to battery but that’s pretty much every battery and stator test covered.

Is there any value in putting a cheap RR in there for testing? What’s compatible?

Battery settles to 12.8 after all the faffing was done and did climb and charge mostly happily on day lights so I can sort of use her for now but don’t trust her.

The ponly real discrepency I see is the 8.6 and 11 and 8.6 when stator connectedt to RR but this bloody mosffet unit won't behave like a regular rr anyway

Charging spec is 14.0-14.8v @ 5,000rpm, so it isn't charging...

Ciao,

Yes - the last post was me focusing on the stator at different temps and measuring the voltages at set rpm here and there to isolate why it isn't charging. Tests I was unable to complete so as to build a clearer picture with the slightly iffy battery that was in there.

Now I've tested the stator and have a shiny battery I can move on to the other potential points of failure.

It's most certainly the RR or the wiring from RR to battery based on the info I have now.

RR has been replaced and all is good in the world. I've taken the time to put an inline fuse on the pos out and wire the  pos and neg straight to battery.

All thrumming nicely for now. I'll put some hard miles on her tomorrow regardless of weather.

Good one.  I almost said something when you linked to that Electrex unit, but as I only had an unscientific prejudice about Electrex reg/recs, I didn't.  But, I've rarely heard anything good about them!  I think the latest Shindengen (OEM supplier to Honda) reg/recs, either MOSFET or series, have a good reputation and these are my current choice. 

Ciao,

Yeah it was a real pain trying to decide if it was the RR or wiring once the rest had been ruled out. MOSFET may be better but I prefer a machine I know how to test. Went with a RR from a GSXR1000 on recommendation - saved a fair few quid as well but will certainly keep a spare when she goes touring.

10 hours ago, JZH

 these are my current choice. 

Nice pun, JZH!

Glad to hear it's running well! I agree with JZH that Shindengen is the way to go over Electrex or Ricks. I prefer the ones with the built in plugs, not sure how the Gixxer does it but Honda prefer to spec theirs with pigtail wires with crap connectors. At least they used to.

Only thing I would change is very minor; run the Neg output straight to the main frame as opposed to the battery. I just prefer to reduce the number of connections to the battery terminals.