hi all im in need of some help, i bought my first vfr last saturday, today i went to go out on it with a mate and it wouldn't start. there is no spark all of the fuses are ok the fi light comes on and the fuel pump primes, the injectors are working also.
im not very good with bikes i can't seem to find how to test the pulse generator
any help would be appreciated
kev
Hi, I don't know about the mechanical side of things but do you have your kill switch in correct position? ☺️
*EDIT* Ok, this is NOT an option if the fuel pump primes, sorry, missed that.
Edited May 11, 2018 by SportTouringCZ9 hours ago, Kev800hi all im in need of some help, i bought my first vfr last saturday, today i went to go out on it with a mate and it wouldn't start. there is no spark all of the fuses are ok the fi light comes on and the fuel pump primes, the injectors are working also.
im not very good with bikes i can't seem to find how to test the pulse generator
any help would be appreciated
kev
Hi Kev.
What year is your bike?
Assuming your Fuel Pump Primes and the Engine cranks over fine, that eliminates the Kill Switch and possibly the battery. Does the starter crank the bike over nicely?
Have you actually confirmed there is No spark, by removing a plug and checking?
If No Spark - confirm with Ignition On you have 12 volts at the Black/white wire and a good Ground connection on the Green wire of the Ignition Coils.
If you are suspecting a fault with the Ignition Pulse Generator, you should see a Code 19 flashing with your Fi Light.
Are you getting any flashing codes from your Fi light?
Do you have the Service Manual or Circuit Diagram of your bike? You can download the Service Manual from this Forum.
Good Luck
hi Grum
thanks for the response, my bike is 2003 non abs. i have checked there is no spark, also my first post said i had working injectors i was wrong they do not work at all (i have checked them with a noid light) i have checked the IPG and the CPG and they both appear to be within spec.
im lost and about to give up
SportTouringCZ, 5/11/2018 at 7:41 AMHi, I don't know about the mechanical side of things but do you have your kill switch in correct position? ☺️
*EDIT* Ok, this is NOT an option if the fuel pump primes, sorry, missed that.
thanks for the thought but yes the kill switch is good!
6 hours ago, Kev800hi Grum
thanks for the response, my bike is 2003 non abs. i have checked there is no spark, also my first post said i had working injectors i was wrong they do not work at all (i have checked them with a noid light) i have checked the IPG and the CPG and they both appear to be within spec.
im lost and about to give up
Kev. Don't give up!
If you've been able to isolate the IPG and CPG and verify your injectors aren't working, then your clever enough to check a few more things.
Have you checked the voltage I mentioned above as this feeds BOTH injectors and ignition coils, and is your FI indicator flashing?
The fact you have both injectors and ignition coils not working may point to a common voltage missing or bad earth/ground. The first thing, ALWAYS, when fault finding is to Verify All relavent Power Supplies are O.K. That includes Battery, Fuses and earthing issues. Keep us informed with what you find.
Good Luck
I had a no start once on my 6th gen - was driving me nuts. I didn't specifically check spark or fuel delivery - it would just crank but not start. Upon closer inspection, the ground wire on the Power Commander was not secured. If you have a PC that's an easy thing to check.
Grum, 5/16/2018 at 12:23 AMKev. Don't give up!
If you've been able to isolate the IPG and CPG and verify your injectors aren't working, then your clever enough to check a few more things.
Have you checked the voltage I mentioned above as this feeds BOTH injectors and ignition coils, and is your FI indicator flashing?
The fact you have both injectors and ignition coils not working may point to a common voltage missing or bad earth/ground. The first thing, ALWAYS, when fault finding is to Verify All relavent Power Supplies are O.K. That includes Battery, Fuses and earthing issues. Keep us informed with what you find.
Good Luck
sorry for the slow response i did not get a notification... we have whittled it down to the ECU being faulty, all sensors are working as they should.
4 hours ago, Kev800sorry for the slow response i did not get a notification... we have whittled it down to the ECU being faulty, all sensors are working as they should.
Hi Kev. My only other suggestion is to back probe the ECM with your voltmeter making sure all the supply voltages and earths are all correct per the service manual. Do this before investing big bucks on a new ECM.
Keep us informed as to how you get on. But from what you've diagnosed and your FI light ON permanently you could well be looking down the barrel of a new ECM.
Good luck.
you can pull the EFI fault codes by shorting a connector and this will bring up a blinking pattern on the FI light. There's a how to here on VFRD and I think there's a video on YouTube and it's also explained in the service manual you can download off this forum. That might give you some valuable information.
Either way I bought a new second hand United States ECU for about a hundred and fifty bucks
Kev. You've mentioned nothing about your Battery. Are you sure its in a healthy state.??
There is a voltage threshold where the injectors will not operate.
ive had the use of a pico scope over the last week or so. here are the results
first picture is the complete cam pulse with the ecu unplugged
second is the complete cam pulse with the ecu plugged in
and third is the crank pulse at 50 m/s
[image: vfr800_cam_pulse_complete_unplugged.jpg]
[image: complete_cam_pulse_vfr800_ecu_plugged_in.jpg]
[image: crank_pulse_vfr800_50m:s.jpg]
whilst searching the internet for info about this fault a friend found a very useful Honda document
VFR VTEC PGM-FI Diagram 2002.pdf
57 minutes ago, Kev800whilst searching the internet for info about this fault a friend found a very useful Honda document
VFR VTEC PGM-FI Diagram 2002.pdf
That's a handy diagram Kev. Think your scope traces confirm your crank and cam sensors are ok.
Have you tried Auspanglish's suggestion of the diagnostic shorting link.? And are you still saying your Fi light is Always On and not flashing?
There are no fault codes stored in the ecu at all.
The first thing i checked were the flash codes. The fi light acts as it should do and the fuel pump primes
30 minutes ago, Kev800There are no fault codes stored in the ecu at all.
The first thing i checked were the flash codes. The fi light acts as it should do and the fuel pump primes
Sorry Kev but in your opening post, you didn't state "The first thing I checked were the flash codes" and it's only now we're informed you have!
Only now your saying your Fi light acts as it should when your opening statement was the Fi light is ON.
You also stated "I'm not good with bikes and any help is appreciated"
So I'm a bit confused! We are all here trying to help from remote distances, giving us feedback from questions we've asked is vital in trying to help you.
Good luck with the new ECM let's know how you go.
Cheers.
i see your point i could have worded it a lot better.
im not very good with bikes at all but im not afraid to get my hands dirty either. i have learnt a lot in the last few days from the research I've been doing on the internet, the last bike i owned i sold 8 years ago.
i do appreciate all of the responses I've had so far. the new ecu should be here on tuesday
what im struggling to get my head around most is the fact that everyone I've spoken with has never heard of an ecu failing, yet the chap that runs the company I've ordered the ecu from says they fall over for fun. i even created a poll on a uk facebook page dedicated to VFR's and im yet to see someone with a failed unit
Well, he's not going to say "there's a 99.9% chance this ecu I'm selling you won't solve anything"
It would be nice if I could find someone that has had an ecu fail
7 hours ago, Kev800It would be nice if I could find someone that has had an ecu fail
Kev. Another thing that will cause your issue! Have a GOOD look at the Engine Management System Diagram you posted.
Have a Close look at Inputs A7 and A20, This is your Clutch/Ingear/Sidestand safety logic.
If you DONT have a Ground at A7 the ECM is saying you are not in Neutral = no start (depending where the Ground might be missing it may still satisfy the Starter Motor logic). No ground input at BOTH A7 and A20= Dead Engine.
Just try this - Raise your Side Stand, pull In the Clutch, try starting your bike.
And YES, given how complex an ECM is its amazing how reliable they are. So you need to be Very thorough in diagnosing Before you spend the bucks on a new one. ALSO - Does your bike have HISS? (Honda Ignition Security System) if so you will need to be supplied with two matched to the ECM transponder keys. Hopefully you don't have the HISS system!
Again - have you back probed the ECM to verify GROUNDS (back to the Negative terminal of you battery) and the 12 Supply??
Cheers.
Morning
i will try all of this today.
The bike does have hiss
23 minutes ago, Kev800Morning
i will try all of this today.
The bike does have hiss
Ok so having HISS throws in some more issues. When you switch on your ignition, does the HISS light come On for approx 2 seconds then go out? Have you tried starting your bike with the spare key? Do you have any other devices on your key ring that could be confusing the HISS system, any other transponder keys on your key ring.?
When I turn the ignition on the hiss light comes on and the pump primes the fi light also comes on then both lights go off.
The key is on its own now and I have tried the spare key.
When I hit the starter button the fuel pump does not run
41 minutes ago, Kev800When I turn the ignition on the hiss light comes on and the pump primes the fi light also comes on then both lights go off.
The key is on its own now and I have tried the spare key.
Normal ops.
40 minutes ago, Kev800When I hit the starter button the fuel pump does not run
Not normal. Fuel Pump is supposed to operate during starter operation. Think that once the ECM sees Cam or Crank pulse inputs the Fuel Pump is activated.
Kev. Check the stuff I mentioned earlier regards gear/clutch/neutral logic for the ECM. Grounds etc. Failing all this you are probably looking at the ECM replacement - make sure you get your matched keys with it, you'll also need to have them cut to suit obviously.
Cheers.
I’m just waiting for the wife and kids to go out and I’ll check everything you have mentioned
Hi
A7 & 20 are good. I’m now thinking that there is nothing left to check.
Hi Kev.
Keep us posted on the ECM replacement.
Will do.
IT LIVES.
The new ECU arrived today it was definitely faulty
The one one thing I will say people is if the ecu ever fails on you steer clear of a company called MOTOMATRIX. I don’t like to talk trash about people on the internet but this company will only add to the stress of trying to fix your bike
Great news Kev. Glad you're up and running again at long last.
Enjoy your ride.
Cheers.
Pleased to hear you've got it working. There are few things worse than having that 'totally stumped' feeling, but this forum is always a great place to turn to for advice. The UK forum (if it's the one I'm thinking of) has hardly any actual VFR owners now and only a small number of contributors. There's some good historic stuff on there, but VFRDiscusion is much better all round.
I did not know there was a uk forum...... where’s that?
Bikers Oracle https://vfr.bikersoracle.com/index.php
There are some knowledgeable people on there and some good historical information, but I get the impression only a few now own a VFR so it's not as engaging as here. Avoid the 'ranting' and 'spouting' forums.
Thanks for that.
Im now breaking the bike.
The ecu has failed again and I refuse to spend any more time/money on it
5 hours ago, Kev800Thanks for that.
Im now breaking the bike.
The ecu has failed again and I refuse to spend any more time/money on it
Hi Kev. That's a real shame to hear. ECU's are normally incredibly reliable. There's probably more you could check. But if you've decided against any more time on the project so be it. Hope you manage to get yourself a set of reliable wheels, bit of a bummer, a well cared for VFR is a great machine. All the best.
Cheers.
The only way to be confident about putting another ECU on the bike is to replace
cam pulse generator
ignition pulse generator
stator
reg/rec
to purchase all four parts new is just shy of 1000 GBP from Honda.
Ijust don’t feel a 15 year old bike that has let me down before is worth the time effort or the money, I’ve owned this bike for a grand total of 10 weeks and it’s spent 8 of those in my garage in pieces. Which is a shame because when it works it’s a lovely bike
[image: 594C9A31-7524-4B56-BB1D-057F06071B33.jpeg]
24 minutes ago, Kev800The only way to be confident about putting another ECU on the bike is to replace
cam pulse generator
ignition pulse generator
stator
reg/rec
to purchase all four parts new is just shy of 1000 GBP from Honda.
Ijust don’t feel a 15 year old bike that has let me down before is worth the time effort or the money, I’ve owned this bike for a grand total of 10 weeks and it’s spent 8 of those in my garage in pieces. Which is a shame because when it works it’s a lovely bike
[image: 594C9A31-7524-4B56-BB1D-057F06071B33.jpeg]
Hi Kev.
To me it seems you would be unlikely to have another ECU failure, so forget another ECU replacement. When your bike was running, did you happen the measure the charging voltage? If you did and you saw anything from 13.5 to say 14.5v then you can say your Stator and R/R are O.K. That leaves the Cam Pulse and Ignition pulse generators, according to my 6gen service manual Fi codes 18 and 19 are for those items, yet you never had a fail code for either of them.
So for your Fuel Pump to Run it must receive a solid Ground through the ECU. I cant stress this highly enough to verify your ECU Grounds are solid back to the Battery Negative terminal along with ALL other grounds and verify the 12v supplies to the ECU are valid. Check this against your drawing for your ECU version.
Good Luck if you feel like a little more tinkering. That really is a great looking bike.
Cheers. :beer:
It had a new wiring loom fitted when the last ecu failed as a just to be sure measure. The fault I’m getting again is identical no spark no ignition pulse, I forgot to check the charge rates if I’m honest.
One thing ink I will say is this time if you crank long enough the FI light does come on solidly. I haven’t checked the outputs on the 2 generators purely because my luck with this bike has been shocking and I can only accurately check resistance as I don’t have the pico scope here any more.
And it is a lovely looking bike, thank you 🙂
40 minutes ago, Kev800It had a new wiring loom fitted when the last ecu failed as a just to be sure measure. The fault I’m getting again is identical no spark no ignition pulse, I forgot to check the charge rates if I’m honest.
One thing ink I will say is this time if you crank long enough the FI light does come on solidly. I haven’t checked the outputs on the 2 generators purely because my luck with this bike has been shocking and I can only accurately check resistance as I don’t have the pico scope here any more.
And it is a lovely looking bike, thank you 🙂
Kev.
Forget the Pico Scope. You haven't isolated the Engine Stop Relay OR the Bank Angle Sensor either one of these failing or being intermittent or its associated wiring might cause your issue.
Use your meter for the Ground and Voltage checks mentioned. According to my 6gen drawing ECU pins B1, B2 and B14 should be solid ground back to the Battery Negative terminal.
You can for test purposes bypass the BAS by jumping a ground wire to the Engine Stop Relay coil ground. You could replace the Engine Stop Relay with your Hi Beam Relay - won't cost you a cent! worth a try.
Can you remember just how your bike failed after you got it going with the second ECU? Did it cough and splutter a bit or did it die instantly. This might help determine whether you had only a fuel failure or major ignition/power failure.
Ok so I’ve just been out and checked the fault codes, code 1 & 18 are present I know 18 is for the cam pulse generator so I checked the resistance across that sensor and it’s in the M ohms range ( that could be a dirty connection) Honda quote the range @ 400 - 600
im going to spend a bit of time de pinning that plug cleaning the terminals and then I’ll recheck.
i really don’t know if I should thank you or curse you at the minute as now you have my hopes up and I’ve had rotten luck lately.
23 minutes ago, Kev800Ok so I’ve just been out and checked the fault codes, code 1 & 18 are present I know 18 is for the cam pulse generator so I checked the resistance across that sensor and it’s in the M ohms range ( that could be a dirty connection) Honda quote the range @ 400 - 600
Kev. This is good news, lets hope your luck is on the turn. You are definitely onto something. Its just an inductive coil pickup, should definitely NOT be in the Meg ohm range.
Don't go "breaking down" your bike just yet!
New Cam Pulse Generator may be all you need. :wheel:
Good Luck.Keep us posted.
In either case, check this common ground bus connector with a multimeter and just do the fix regardless, it's a generic issue, even if you've swapped out the front wiring harness / loom.
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/62525-faulty-ground-connector/&share_tid=62525&share_fid=35196&share_type=t
I did come across the big yellow connector. But took a slightly different course the extra cable was already on the bike when I bought it as in the picture, I changed it slightly so that the wire is soldered all the way across the bridging connector then sealed it up with self amalgamating tape I’m happy that the earth is good here
[image: D0316E87-D542-4769-A7CF-495623E9E75B.jpeg]
14 hours ago, Kev800I did come across the big yellow connector. But took a slightly different course the extra cable was already on the bike when I bought it as in the picture, I changed it slightly so that the wire is soldered all the way across the bridging connector then sealed it up with self amalgamating tape I’m happy that the earth is good here
Hi Kev. Glad you had a very close look at the Ground Block and sorted those issues. The wire in your picture has the classic signs of a Cold Solder joint which could have caused you grief at any stage.
Track down a new Cam Pulse Generator and hopefully you'll be on the road again. Have you fully determined whether the plug wiring is ok or not, or the Cam Pulse Generator itself has gone high resistance?
The OEM part number is 36140-MBG-003 Pulser Assy Cam price was $96.53usd Partzilla.
Shall be looking forward to hearing your run of "rotten luck" has ended, be Great to know your VFR lives again.
Good Luck.
Cheers. :beer:
Cam pulse generator tested at 15 M ohms the wire was green all the way down to the sensor. I have ordered a used one from eBay for now because it was £12 instead of £200 if the bike runs I will invest in a brand new one
Kev800 Cam pulse generator tested at 15 M ohms the wire was green all the way down to the sensor. I have ordered a used one from eBay for now because it was £12 instead of £200 if the bike runs I will invest in a brand new oneUnless that used one is dodgy too...
42 minutes ago, Kev800Cam pulse generator tested at 15 M ohms the wire was green all the way down to the sensor. I have ordered a used one from eBay for now because it was £12 instead of £200 if the bike runs I will invest in a brand new one
Good luck with it Kev, do us a favour and record what the Ohms are on the replacement, be keen to know if it falls within 400 - 600ohm range as specified.
Cheers.
So the second hand cam pulse generator turned up in the post about 30 mins ago. I tested it before I fitted it (699 ohms) so I don’t expect it will last too long. I’m now in two minds to keep it or not.
The MOT runs out soon, should I have it tested and keep it or move it on?
for those of you following this outside the UK the MOT is a government safety inspection carried out yearly to be allowed to use a vehicle on the roads in the UK
23 minutes ago, Kev800So the second hand cam pulse generator turned up in the post about 30 mins ago. I tested it before I fitted it (699 ohms) so I don’t expect it will last too long. I’m now in two minds to keep it or not.
The MOT runs out soon, should I have it tested and keep it or move it on?
for those of you following this outside the UK the MOT is a government safety inspection carried out yearly to be allowed to use a vehicle on the roads in the UK
Mate couldn't give a rats about MOT. Is your bike finally running? That's what is all important at the moment.
YES 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
11 minutes ago, Kev800YES 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Well, that is great news, think I'm more excited your pride and joy is running than you are ! So glad your luck has finally turned, surely that has put a smile on your dial.
Whether you keep the bike is your choice, you might now have many reliable miles of motorcycling ahead of you. If you have any doubts about the second hand Cam Pulser you can at least invest in a new one at your leisure. For the moment perhaps you can get out and enjoy it, then you can make a full assessment as to whether to sell or keep it.
Good luck and great effort on finally nailing the issue.
Cheers.
I had a look at the partzilla website I have already ordered a new sensor and a few other bits that I was not happy about once they turn up ill get them on the bike. In the mean time I’m gonna do as many miles as I can on it to gain some confidence back in the bike, at least then if I decide to sell it on I can do so with a clear conscience. I can’t believe how much the parts are inflated by in the uk. I have paid less for a piece of fairing the sensor and some trim clips shipped to the uk for less than I can buy just the sensor here. Even if there’s import tax I’ll have saved a pretty penny
well done for sticking with it
6 minutes ago, M1962well done for sticking with it
Thanks. I was so close to tearing it to bits.
¡¡Olé olé olé!!
Hoo Ray! :wheel: