Surging/Bogging

2014 VFR800F/D. 42000 miles.

Starting about 4000 miles ago the bike started bogging down and then surging. If I'm maintaining throttle (like on the highway) it will start losing power even though I'm holding a constant position, then if I move the throttle its like it realizes where it's supposed to be and surges back to that position. It stopped doing it for about 3k miles after I had the full service done, but recently started doing it on a trip.

I thought bad gas so I ran the tank nearly empty (the condition got worse as the tank emptied), refilled it, and then it started doing it again 30 or so miles later.

I thought the Throttle Position Sensor might be going bad so I tapped into the system via my Power Commander 5. The PC shows that the throttle position (at least in my garage) works properly 0-100%.

The bogging/surging is kind of inconsistent so its hard to drop it off and say it does a thing when it doesn't do it all the time.  What am I missing?

Hi lazyeye.

Sorry to here of your bike woes especially since it's a 2014 8gen. Nothing goes wrong with these bikes!!

Your symptoms sound like it may be a blocking/dirty fuel filter. Also adding to that might be a kinked breather hose which is so easy to do after raising and lowering the fuel tank. After a bit of riding and you open your filler cap, are you sensing any strong vacuum holding the cap down?

Assume you're not seeing the Fi Light coming ON or any flashing code? 

On the last service you had done do you suspect that tank may have been raised, possibly to replace the air filter or any other reason?

As per the photos attached. Have a very good look at where the Breather Hose small to large adaptor is located. If it's hidden further inwards that could mean a kinked hose. It needs to be very visible on the R/H side.

Good Luck hope this helps, keep us posted.

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The last maintenance was spark plugs, valve adjustment, air filter replacement... pretty much everything. The tank had to come off to do that work. I'll have a look and see if the breather hose is kinked. I don't detect any vacuum in the tank (its easy to open up just like usual) and there's no codes or warning lights showing up. I've heard that the charcoal filter can eventually get clogged up and cause running problems, is that real or is it an old biker story?

8 hours ago, lazyeye

The last maintenance was spark plugs, valve adjustment, air filter replacement... pretty much everything. The tank had to come off to do that work. I'll have a look and see if the breather hose is kinked. I don't detect any vacuum in the tank (its easy to open up just like usual) and there's no codes or warning lights showing up. I've heard that the charcoal filter can eventually get clogged up and cause running problems, is that real or is it an old biker story?

Did this issue happen before Or after the last Service?

Does your bike have the Evap canister? Can't imagine how this system could cause your issues anyway. If the canister became blocked it could possibly effect the breathing of your tank.

Feel may you need to isolate the Fuel Filter, your issues are very much symptomatic of a dirty filter or fuel pressure issues. Maybe other members might have some ideas.

The issue happened before I took it in for service and was independent of the last time I raised the tank. It was fine for about 3000 miles after the service, that's what really confuses me. My bike has the evap cannister, I've been too lazy to figure out how to properly eliminate it.

1 hour ago, lazyeye

The issue happened before I took it in for service and was independent of the last time I raised the tank. It was fine for about 3000 miles after the service, that's what really confuses me. My bike has the evap cannister, I've been too lazy to figure out how to properly eliminate it.

You can simply unplug the electrical connector to the Evap Control Valve Solenoid and give your bike a good run, see how it goes.

Still thinking your Fuel Filter, may be an issue. You may have to try a fuel pressure and flow test as per the Service Manual.

Perhaps this is something you could have done where you have your bike serviced, they should also have good ideas of what to check based on your symptoms.

Is there anything strange going on with your Power Commander? How hard is it to disconnect, and have your bike running in a stock standard situation for trial?

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lazyeye, 7/1/2020 at 1:41 PM

The issue happened before I took it in for service and was independent of the last time I raised the tank. It was fine for about 3000 miles after the service, that's what really confuses me. My bike has the evap cannister, I've been too lazy to figure out how to properly eliminate it.

Any update on your bike? I'm still thinking it's a Fuel filter or pump issue. Maybe with all the country tripping you've done you may have picked up some dirty fuel along the way.

Keep us posted.

Cheers.

The shop has it. So I'm bikeless for the moment 😞 I'm probably going to borrow my mom's Vulcan 500 for the meantime.

1 hour ago, lazyeye

The shop has it. So I'm bikeless for the moment 😞 I'm probably going to borrow my mom's Vulcan 500 for the meantime.

Hope the bike shop gets it sorted ASAP for you. Keep us posted with what they find.

Vulcan 500, that would be a very different beast to the VFR!! Go easy on Mom's bike! :fing02:

Any ride beats a drive....  😎

I have a 2004 Vtec that is doing the same thing, reading through this tread I'll double check the breathers etc, however mine in factory, no power commander or map change.  So whatever it is its hard to diagnose.  I'm keen to see how you get on and what's found.

1 hour ago, Damanisin

I have a 2004 Vtec that is doing the same thing, reading through this tread I'll double check the breathers etc, however mine in factory, no power commander or map change.  So whatever it is its hard to diagnose.  I'm keen to see how you get on and what's found.

While your VTEC shares a good amount of DNA with the 8th gen, it has its own issues with fueling and a very different ECU that's at least a decade behind the 8th gen's. The development of the VTEC happened in the late '90's when emissions regs were tightening and maybe the electronics were not as refined as today.  The AFR's were tuned to be very lean, to the point where it could be too lean under certain conditions.  You can search through the forums for remedies owners have instituted over the years.  In my case I used a Power Commander to adjust the fueling, and with an injector cleaning dispensed with those issues. These days I'd probably get a Rapid Bike  module vs a P.C. and let it tune itself to a bit richer AFR and see what you get.  If you still have the PAIR system be sure the valves are clean and there are no leaks in the system. 

2 hours ago, Damanisin

I have a 2004 Vtec that is doing the same thing, reading through this tread I'll double check the breathers etc, however mine in factory, no power commander or map change.  So whatever it is its hard to diagnose.  I'm keen to see how you get on and what's found.

Agree with what Cogswell has suggested. But first check/replace your Fuel Filter, your bike is now 16 years old, hesitation, slight loss of power or surging at constant highway speeds is a good sign of a Fuel Filter issue.

Could you have recently picked up a bad batch of fuel? Condensation in your tank? Keep away from Ethanol blended Fuel if you can avoid it.

The 6gen does not have the same tank breather issue as the 8gen, so don't worry about the breather.

Cheers.

I have my bike back. After four months of waiting for parts (warehouses show parts in stock that aren't and by the time they figure it out its been a month....) I had my mechanic use a rebuild kit on the fuel pump. Its running good now. Now I need to snowbird south and ride around the desert for the next few months!

The fuel filter was pretty well clogged. My reasoning is that had something to do with the pump failing.

Good to know you're finally up and running again. Given the age of your bike, the filter blockage could have only come from one or two very bad batches of fuel, possibly from some outback town you've visited. Reassuring to know you have a new pump to go with it. Enjoy your southern travels. Safe riding.

Cheers.

17 hours ago, Grum

Good to know you're finally up and running again. Given the age of your bike, the filter blockage could have only come from one or two very bad batches of fuel, possibly from some outback town you've visited. Reassuring to know you have a new pump to go with it. Enjoy your southern travels. Safe riding.

Cheers.

I've visited some gas stations that didn't look like they were open. Just run down shacks in the middle of nowhere with a pump out front. Finding out that the name brand gas station you'd planned to fill at closed a year ago and having to fill at Uncle Peet's Gas and Meth emporium is why we call it an adventure.

I recently followed this thread with considerable interest, since I have a newly acquired 6th-gen (2002) RC46 VFR with what seems to be an identical issue! I'll be running the bike in 3rd or 4th gear (I'm a very 'born to be mild' rider) with the tach indicating between 5K and 5.5 or so, and maintaining a steady throttle position, when the power starts to fall off somewhat. To correct that, I have usually applied just a SLIGHT bit of throttle, at which point the bike surges annoyingly. I like to ride at a steady rate and 5K, so having this 'drop-off and surge' thing is a rather big frustration! I have no real indication as to when the bike had its last 'serious' service', but with 32,687 miles on the clock, it's probably time to take her in and have her get the recommended work done for 32K. HOWEVER, meanwhile this problem is really causing me a load of annoyance.

I noted the suggestions about possible fuel issue, as well as the caveat about checking/replacing the fuel filter and making sure the fuel pump is operating properly, so I'll definitely mention those suggested 'remedies' to my mechanic, but if that doesn't resolve things chop-chop, it's back to square one again! The bike has NO Power Commander, BTW and also has a stock exhaust system and fuel system. Since LAZYEYE's bike is 8th-gen (2014), it's interesting that BOTH my 6th-gen and his 8th-gen seem to have an idedntical affliction.

All of this simply makes me wish sincerely that I hadn't so rashly sold my 2000 5th-gen Viffer, which was a beautiful machine, stable throughout the power band in terms of providing smooth response, and never gave me a single issue. Amusingly, I'm sure a 'mild rider' that I haven't even encountered the EVIL VTEC spirit, yet...unless this issue is somehow connected to the extra complications of that system. [My machine is a California model (it even came with a small 'Saint AOC be our Protector!' medallion...yeah, li'dat!)] 😝

Kalikiano - see my previous response to you.  Normal behavior...but defeatable.  Try the key switch method before jumping to fuel pumps, etc.  

8 hours ago, Kalikiano

I recently followed this thread with considerable interest, since I have a newly acquired 6th-gen (2002) RC46 VFR with what seems to be an identical issue! I'll be running the bike in 3rd or 4th gear (I'm a very 'born to be mild' rider) with the tach indicating between 5K and 5.5 or so, and maintaining a steady throttle position, when the power starts to fall off somewhat. To correct that, I have usually applied just a SLIGHT bit of throttle, at which point the bike surges annoyingly. I like to ride at a steady rate and 5K, so having this 'drop-off and surge' thing is a rather big frustration! I have no real indication as to when the bike had its last 'serious' service', but with 32,687 miles on the clock, it's probably time to take her in and have her get the recommended work done for 32K. HOWEVER, meanwhile this problem is really causing me a load of annoyance.

Hi Kalikiano.

Strongly suggest before going down the path of fitting a PC or the RB that you check the fuel filter and pump etc.

It's common with any bike to cause the issues you have by poor fuel delivery. I'm not saying conclusively that this is the cause in your situation, but it certainly needs checking. Note, your bikes fuel filter is almost 20 years old!

My three previous 6gens and current 8gen have never experienced your issue. A friends 1998 5gen which I've ridden recently is stock standard and runs just fine, no fueling issues at all. Bikes don't come from the factory with your issue!

There's no doubt that people have good success with fitting a PC for added performance tuning..... BUT you don't want to be fitting one and trying to mask out a fault which may be as simple as a bad batch of fuel, blocked fuel filter,  faulty spark plugs, or dirty injectors etc.

Shipfixer's method of trying open loop mode is a good trick to try that could help to isolate your issue. If you still have problems in this mode then the fuel filter and/or pump need looking at.

Don't be too concerned about the loss of your fabulous 5gen. A well running 6gen will put a smile on your face, even with VTEC and without the gear driven cams!

Just a thought!! As always YMMV.

Good luck, let's know how you get on. :fing02:

these bikes ran perfectly fine when leaving showroom floor with no stumbles anywhere. With age, wear and tear, you've now got EFI system that's no longer factory-fresh clean and with OEM spec parts. Proper troubleshooting and tune-up procedure is to measure each component and sensors. Then compare to numbers in manual to determine where problem lies.

It may be multiple components; some needing cleaning, some may require adjustment, and some replacements in rare cases.  There's even test of fuel-system flow by measuring volume pumped in X-seconds. Idea is to get bike cleaned and adjusted back to factory showroom condition. Then it'll run like brand-new.

This is similar to old desperate approach with dirty and clogged carbs. Gee, I've got stumbles and hesitations. Must be low fuel flow. Let's just install giant jets, that'll fix it! Low and behold, bike runs better with humongous jets, I was right!

Except that bike only runs 60-80% as well as brand-new bike. Improvement was due to installing clean components, not in up-sizing them. And ignoring scrubbing of hidden petrol passages and bleed-holes sacrificed 20% of restored performance you could've had.

In this case, installing PC may mask clogged injectors and fuel-filter issues in mid-range, but will endanger your engine under high-loads where you'll run lean for sure and risk blown headgaskets and holes in pistons!

Disagree, the annoying closed loop behavior has been present in my bike since I took it off the showroom floor in 2003.  The early days of VFRD, Vfrw, Bay Area VFR, etc are full of stories of all of us trying to break this code and make it feel like a cable operated carburetor, comparing it to cat-less F4i's and 5th gens, etc.

1 hour ago, ShipFixer

Disagree, the annoying closed loop behavior has been present in my bike since I took it off the showroom floor in 2003.  The early days of VFRD, Vfrw, Bay Area VFR, etc are full of stories of all of us trying to break this code and make it feel like a cable operated carburetor, comparing it to cat-less F4i's and 5th gens, etc.

Interesting ShipFixer, I wonder if these issues you talk of are peculiar to the USA version. 

The riding group I was heavily involed with for 15 years or so had VFR owners of 6gens, there were at least 6 or 7 6gen owners that purchased their bikes from new including myself, I had fairly close contact with them, appart from the odd cct, stator/RR and a bad tank of fuel, I cannot recall anyone complaining of what your describing. 

Frankly, if I'd purchased a new bike with issues like this I think I'd be demanding a fix or refund!

Like I mentioned my mates 5gen had none of the issues either. Is it possible that Honda resolved the issue with the 6gen from models post 2003. My first 6gen was a 2004 and had no problems.

It will be very interesting to know the proper cause of Kalikiano's problem.

I think some people either don't notice/care or have forgotten.  In CA I was on long highway trips where it was obvious and not a transient thing.  Everyone who came from a carbureted bike hated it.  I completely forgot about it until I repurchased my bike and felt it again.  

I also bought my bike after a chief engineer tour on a little diesel ship with a...questionable control system...and in the middle of MechE grad school for a bunch of related stuff including linear controls so it drove me pretty bonkers right away that this was the best Honda could do.  If you really, really want to see it, get a stock 6th gen that's had starter sync and everything else done lately to set it to baseline, and put a throttle rocker or similar device on it.  The long leverage makes it even more obvious and annoying.  I sometimes had a choice between using the rocker to save my hands and getting absurdly annoyed with the ECU.  

My friend's 2001 did not do it, but my 2002 always did it, as did everyone else's.  In the last few months though a *lot* of things make much more sense than they did in 2003 though.  I am pretty glad I didn't try a PC3 but very satisfied with the technical approach to the RB.  It makes sense to dispense with the Honda inputs as much as possible.

Should also add the forum has crashed a few times since then.  But the original owners were obsessed with two common goals...how to smooth out VTEC (mine has never been bad, especially after starter valve syncs and such) and how to correct this closed loop behavior.

Appreciate your comments Shipfixer regards potential design flaws with Honda closed loop for the early 6gen.

I guess what I'm really getting at is that there is heavy evidence (and this particular thread is a classic example) that a very common (but not always) cause for a bike to start surging and bogging is fuel delivery and this is what should be assessed first before jumping to a PC or RB potentially masking a fundamental root cause of the problem. YMMV.

Cheers.

12 hours ago, Kalikiano

Amusingly, I'm sure a 'mild rider' that I haven't even encountered the EVIL VTEC spirit, yet...unless this issue is somehow connected to the extra complications of that system.

Since VTEC is oft-discussed and seemingly gets a bad rap, maybe it would be interesting to see where VTEC lives and see some of the components.  Most owners never see it or know where it is.  The top two photos, below show where it lays at the base of the "V" underneath the throttle body (circled in red and in the second photo only the electrical portion of it).  VTEC is an actually simple system (much simpler than variable valve timing on newer engines).  It is a solenoid controlled oil valve, that when actuated, allows pressurized oil to flow through a spider web of passages in the upper portion of the block in to the 4 pairs of VTEC valve buckets. The solenoid / valve in the photos is a plunger style - the solenoid moving a spring loaded small rod back and forth to open the passageway from pressurized oil in to the valve buckets.  There isn't much to go wrong with it.  I don't ever recall an owner reporting a VTEC solenoid / valve failing .  "The combination is referred to as "the spool valve". 

While conventional valve buckets have a shim that sits between the bucket and the valve stem, inside each of the 8 VTEC valve buckets is a hydraulic latch (last photo, right).  The latch has a spring loaded slide that when force closed, closes off the central opening.   When pressure is absent the valve stem can transit through the hole in the  latch and even though the bucket is rising and falling with the cam's rotation, the valve is not actuated and remains closed.  Hence VTEC valves have two springs - an inner spring to close the valve just like the non-VTEC ones, and a lighter, outer spring that keeps the VTEC bucket in contact with the cam at all time regardless of valve movement.  That action is what raises the latch off the valve stem on each cycle and allows the latch slide to move (direction arrow in the photo) to "close the hole over" and allow the latch to contact the valve stem.   When oil pressure hits the latch, it closes almost instantly after the cam lobe leaves the bucket thus contacting the top of the valve stem on the next cycle, operating the valve.  Hence the abrupt "hit" the rider feels as airflow through the engine nearly doubles (? maybe it's not that much - but is significant) almost instantly.  At VTEC engagement RPM, the valves are opening and closing around 50+ times per second.  In the photo, I placed arrows at the 2 holes in the bucket that allow pressurized oil in to close the latch (you have to look closely).

Note that inside the bucket is scribed "279".  That is the thickness of its shim.  The shim is not separate from the bucket - it's part of it.   That, is one of the Achilles heel of VTEC - if VTEC valves are out of spec you don't replace a shim, you replace the entire bucket.  They run in the range of $40 each +/-  and there are 8.  You get the idea . . . 

So mechanically VTEC is pretty simple.  Complexity comes in both service and control of the nearly instant change in airflow.  If 6th gens did not have VTEC but still chain driven cams, I doubt there would have ever been much if any talk about the complexity of 6th gen motors.   What makes VTEC adjustments a PITA besides dealing with chains vs just setting gears back in place are the latches.  You can't check valve adjustment on one that has an open latch and does not contact the valve.  To do that the latch must be closed - and that's what the 1st "take the cams out and put them back" sequence is about.  Each VTEC bucket must be removed and a small pin placed in the slide of each latch to hold it closed (that's what's going on in the photo) - once the pin is in, the latch is replaced in the bucket and then back on the valve, latched closed).  Repeat X7 and then reassemble chains / cams to check clearance.  From there it's the same as any other shim / bucket check.  Remove the cams a 2nd time to replace needed shims/buckets. Reinstall with latches in place to check final clearance.    Finally, the latching pins must be removed so they'll operate normally so out the cams come once again to remove them and then final assembly.  So in and out with the cams at least 3 times.  Anyone that complains about the cost of a VTEC valve adjustment should give this a go and see if they would like to make a living at it.  I for one, would not . . .

The other part of the puzzle is how the change in airflow is dealt with.  At VTEC engagement RPM's, the cams are rotating as mentioned at about 50+ times per second.  That's a lot to ask of ECU's that were developed about 20 years ago.  I don't think Honda had all this well refined at the time.  I remember the 1st time I felt that "hit".  It didn't bother me, but I came to understand what owners had talked about.  In 2006 Honda raised the VTEC engagement RPM by 400 and probably did some other engine management tweaks to try to smooth it out but it wasn't until nearly 12 years after its initial development that Honda really got it right with the 2014 model introduction. 

I don't think VTEC's should be avoided or have anything to be concerned about. Any issues with it are control, not mechanical.  Early on mine had the stumbling and sometimes erratic running at around 4,000 rpm in on/off throttle situation.  Personally I think that had more to do with trying to comply with tightening regulations than with anything VTEC related.  Some maintain that VTEC was an attempt at complying - that's above my pay grade.  At any rate, I cleaned / flowed my injectors and with at the time a PCIII it all smoothed out.  Now, however I'm using RB for that.  I never have had the 5,000 to 6,000 rpm changes going along at a steady speed some experience.  Owner's experiences seem to vary to a mild to significant degree in some of those regards.  VTEC is not bad and IMO very reliable, but as I've said before I don't think it adds anything and the complexity and cost of service are detractors given no material change in power or torque delivery. 

I would set your mind at ease.  Yes a 5th gen is a delicious treat - but, both ABS and factory luggage were never available with 5th gens, so the 6th and 8th gens have a number advantages over a 5G.  My advice is to have one of each!  :biggrin:

[image: VTEC soledoid II resized.jpg]

[image: VTEC soledoid resized.jpg]

[image: Bucket II.JPG]

24 minutes ago, Grum

Appreciate your comments Shipfixer regards potential design flaws with Honda closed loop for the early 6gen.

I guess what I'm really getting at is that there is heavy evidence (and this particular thread is a classic example) that a very common (but not always) cause for a bike to start surging and bogging is fuel delivery and this is what should be assessed first before jumping to a PC or RB potentially masking a fundamental root cause of the problem. YMMV.

Cheers.

This is actually the first time I've seen someone post a picture of a fuel filter and narrow it down as the root cause of their problem 😄

Words like surging and bogging and whatnot can cover a lot of things that are difficult to diagnose just from reading the words.  And fuel is a potential problem across any engine.  But power falling off slightly between 4K and 7K RPM, when at steady state on the highway, on a stock 6th gen, with the rider trapped in a do-loop...well, that's just how they are.  There were a bunch of people here who bailed off their VFR's to go back to Blackbirds and such, partially because of the ECU.  

2 hours ago, ShipFixer

This is actually the first time I've seen someone post a picture of a fuel filter and narrow it down as the root cause of their problem

The picture is only showing the suction filter on the pump input side, the main filter is on the pump output. Given the state of it I guess its a good indication the main filter wouldn't be too healthy.

Had a bit more of a read regards surging and bogging. Some more interesting things that 6gen owners claim to have greatly reduced or cured their issues apart from fuel filters.

- Air intake velocity stacks incorrectly positioned.

- Dying battery.

- ECM connections poor or high resistance.

- Spark plugs.

- Poor Starter Valve synch.

Guess Kalikiano at least has a few things he can check.

Yup, we've all chased all of those over the years.  Some of them like the velocity stacks never really made good technical sense but we tried anyway.  You can also add trying the starter valve sync pattern from a 5th gen instead of all-even, and a few others that are closely related.  

But on the fueling bit, think about any clogged media...it results in consistently lower flow, not something like the dial back at steady cruise.  You would also have a lot of other symptoms that would show up other times.
 

It could be that Australian models don't have the same ECU logic.  The US ones are definitely got screwed over.

2 hours ago, ShipFixer

Words like surging and bogging and whatnot can cover a lot of things that are difficult to diagnose just from reading the words.  And fuel is a potential problem across any engine.  But power falling off slightly between 4K and 7K RPM, when at steady state on the highway, on a stock 6th gen, with the rider trapped in a do-loop...well, that's just how they are.  There were a bunch of people here who bailed off their VFR's to go back to Blackbirds and such, partially because of the ECU.  

Have to agree with you, having this issue would drive you nuts.

What does my head in is that many owner's don't have the problem.

I've travelled thousands of kilometers up and down boring highways coasting around the 5000rpm zone and just fine tweeking the throttle locker for constant speed - never any surging issues.

Given such very consistent build quality and tolerances I would have thought this issue would be far more consistent, to the point of every bike having the problem, but that clearly is not the case.

24 minutes ago, ShipFixer

It could be that Australian models don't have the same ECU logic.  The US ones are definitely got screwed over.

Maybe the U version 6gen for Australia and New Zealand allowed for richer fuelling maps.......completely guessing here!

I'm even wondering wether our fuel differences between countries could even have an effect!....more straw grasping!!

Hard to say...I think it's more like how most "consumer grade" headphones that cost a decent amount are really terrible in specific ways that make them palatable to non-audiophiles, and they're doing the best they can for the business line's expected return on investment.  The vast majority of owners probably also don't notice the flat spot in the middle of their fuel injection maps for example, but that's there for the same emissions reasons as the closed loop mode.  A small handful of owners gathered here and VFRW, etc. get into this but I doubt even most people who plug in Power Commanders really dig in that far.  They never mod suspension (which comes undersprung for the average American), etc., or, you know...even think about changing their car's shocks ever 30K miles or so.  And in 2020 the odds of someone coming from a carbureted bike with a linear power delivery is pretty slim to none. 

It is also possible along with this that it's somewhere in the tolerances in between bikes.  Motorcycles are turning twice or more the RPM, with a much smaller cylinder volume, with much smaller amounts of fuel coming out of the injectors, with far less sensors than road vehicles.  And...motorcycles do not have near the revenue base or regulatory drive that cars do.   It requires higher precision than bigger engines that you can't just scale down effectively, so you really need more funding and work to get it to the same place but...not going to happen.

Look at how far variable valve technology in cars has gone since 90's Honda VTEC Preludes.  Pretty much everything has at least variable intake timing, to the extent where most of my friends don't even know that's a thing, or what a cam phaser is.  I have a friend who is a retired turbine engineer with the same engine as my truck, and I had to show him in an app (designed by some smart Australians who cracked Nissan's proprietary signals) that the cams advance between zero and forty degrees continuously.  We get...something less sophisticated than the Prelude.  It's a really good idea  but Honda just doesn't have the business case to invest a whole lot more in development of these engines or bikes.  Making the fuel delivery perfect for the rider as well as emissions is probably not high on that list past "good enough."