Oil Changes, Hot vs. Cold

I was going to post this in another thread about what oil type to use but that thread was really spread pretty thin and I see that you guys were pretty tired of it.

So, I came across this article a long time ago and found it very interesting to say the least. It's like anything in this world there are varied opinions for a lot of subjects. Keep and open mind and read this article and see what you think. I was one that would always warm up an engine before draining the oil, but I've reconsidered that old myth if you will.

HotorColdOil.pdf

Thanks for sharing Kbear. Thats a great article. Often wondered about the benefits of oil drain while the engine warm to get better flow as opposed to a longer time with a cold engine to get most of it returning to the sump.

A cold engine drain over a longer time is the better way to go. Interesting.

However if you're using a high quality oil with regular changes, the small amount of old oil left in the sump will not matter Jack shite. (Woops - Jack shit, Aussie for meaning, Insignificant). :fing02:

[image: IMG_1123(1).PNG]

Well that was a good read, thanks for sharing. Looks like I'll be doing cold oil changes from now on, the "warm" left-behind value of nearly 7% sucks.

I wonder why the manufacurers suggest doing them warm/hot? Maybe there is some merit in that for getting more sediment in suspension in really old oil?

I checked the manuals for my Yamaha (warm it for several minutes first), Vespa (the engine must be hot) and my Hondas (the instruction is to have the engine "warm"). So they are quite consistent but at odds with the article. 

I can't get the article to download on my device,  just looking at the portion,  above.  Does it go in to why the warm volume is lower?

32 minutes ago, Cogswell

I can't get the article to download on my device,  just looking at the portion,  above.  Does it go in to why the warm volume is lower?

Nothing more complicated than the drain time allowed! And that the warm oil didn't flow back to the sump as fast as the hot oil.

The cold drain was 12 hours after getting the engine to the Hot state.

1 hour ago, Grum

Thanks for sharing Kbear. Thats a great article. Often wondered about the benefits of oil drain while the engine warm to get better flow as opposed to a longer time with a cold engine to get most of it returning to the sump.

A cold engine drain over a longer time is the better way to go.

The oil drain table says it all.

However if you're using a high quality oil with regular changes, the small amount of old oil left in the sump will not matter Jack shite. (Woops - Jack shit, Aussie for meaning, Insignificant). :fing02:

You're very welcome for the article. I found it very interesting and thought you guys should have the opportunity to put your eyeballs on it. Like I mentioned I've always subscribed to heating up the engine first then draining the oil. Now, I can confess, and this is the truth I've often thought in the back of my mind "Does it really need to be hot?" After all I'm not in a race when I'm draining the oil so why in the world would I need it to drain really really fast? Now, and over several oil changes on several different motorcycles now, I'm really into turning on some music, having a glass of ice tea (or whatever you prefer to drink) and just taking my time changing the oil and filter. I'm just NOT in a huge hurry.  :woohoo:

1 hour ago, Terry

Well that was a good read, thanks for sharing. Looks like I'll be doing cold oil changes from now on, the "warm" left-behind value of nearly 7% sucks.

I wonder why the manufacurers suggest doing them warm/hot? Maybe there is some merit in that for getting more sediment in suspension in really old oil?

I checked the manuals for my Yamaha (warm it for several minutes first), Vespa (the engine must be hot) and my Hondas (the instruction is to have the engine "warm"). So they are quite consistent but at odds with the article. 

You're welcome also for the article indeed. Glad you found it worthwhile. Yes, it's not going to hurt you to change the oil when it's cold. You can take comfort in the fact that you are indeed getting rid of more contaminants in your oil drain than you would by heating it up and distributing those contaminants throughout the engine and not draining them as you should. Just think, now you don't need to spend time warming up the engine only to have to deal with hot oil when you drain it. All that to get it to drain faster. Are you part of a pit crew???? 

Very interesting... cold changes it is!

Interesting, but I'll still stick to hot oil changes. I don't put the plug back in as soon as the oil stops coming out in a steady stream, which is

basically what they did. Mine usually sits for an hour or so to drain as much as possible. I mean it makes sense that you'll get less oil out if

you don't give the oil time to drain down from the upper end. There's a reason they tell you not to check the oil immediately after shutting

off the engine. I use a Fumoto drain plugs on my 4 wheel vehicles and they usually sit at least a half hour before I shut off the drain, just to

let as much oil as possible drain down.

I wonder what the results would be if they had given each an hour, or even a half hour to drain. Thanks for posting that article up.

Major variable in article is NOT hot vs. warm vs. cold oil. It's drain-time!!! If they had left hot & warm oil to sit for 12-hrs, it too would've drained just as much, if not more!

No car has ever detonated due to choosing hot vs. cold oil changes.  They do fail when you forget to change the oil though.  🙃

hey is there a difference using hot or cold 10W-30 or 10W-40? Just kidding LOL nothing like a good oil war thread

I’m a hot oil changer. Being a generator tech having worked all over the world and not always being offered a choice between Cold Warm Hot changes more often it was always hot. Walk up, shut the unit off and get to work, 20 deg F  or 120 deg F outside, didn’t matter, you just did it. I’d say in my own experience over the years I get more oil out hot than cold, no doubt about it. 
 

As long as I’m the one doing the services I’m doing it hot. But that’s just me. 

Great article, thanks for sharing. However, the drain time was only 4 minutes in the test protocol.  I am with DannoXYZ, if the drain  time is longer,  the hot /warm oil amount will be the same or higher. If a paid mechanic changes the oil, then time is money. When I change it, I let it the hot engine/ warm engine sit for 10 minutes or so and then let it drain for 15-30 minutes while checking around the bike/car.

In any case, this article is a great reminder in regards to checking my train of thoughts again.

In all these cases over 90% of the fluid is replaced.  It resets not just viscosity but the main "worst" things about old oil, like acidity and whatnot.  It is interesting but I would not go out of my way to do hot or cold.

Agree that for most industrial applications, hot changes are directed.  But a lot of those procedures were written "way back when" and it's just how things continue to be.  On a related example, the procedures for breaking in large diesel engines look just like how we did it in the 60's and don't reflect modern tribological studies, which shows that for modern, plateau honed cylinders, "break in" is done really quickly (rule I recall is 80% of lifetime wear in first 21 minutes) and doesn't matter like we used to think it did.  But we still do it that way anyway, because "it's always worked."

It's also worth mentioning that for most large engines, they do condition based oil changes based on test results vs. intervals, and they sometimes have attached things like oil purifying circuits and whatnot.  On small engines like cars and trucks we are changing oil relatively early, so 90% change out is good enough.

Oh yes........ another solution for a problem that doesn't really exist??

IF you could drain ALL the oil it says in the manual for an oil and filter change, you're more than good.... drain time....

Note there is an additional volume of oil required should you rebuild and have a virgin engine...... you will never drain that out, so you're worried about a little oil left in?  On an FJR it's a full litre.....

52 minutes ago, raYzerman

Oh yes........ another solution for a problem that doesn't really exist??

IF you could drain ALL the oil it says in the manual for an oil and filter change, you're more than good.... drain time....

Note there is an additional volume of oil required should you rebuild and have a virgin engine...... you will never drain that out, so you're worried about a little oil left in?  On an FJR it's a full litre.....

Agreed, raYzerman. A solution in search of a problem. A little bit of old oil left is no big deal IMHO. The biggest issue I've seen is shops consistently adding too much new oil. I've had to siphon oil out after service. Excess oil:

[image: IMG_6232.thumb.JPG.7634b12ef7f47fb9e3df22291a58d6a0.JPG]

Changing oil hot doesn't make much sense when you think about it (when not in a time crunch). What is the advantage of changing the oil when it's hot/warm? It will flow through the engine and drain faster right? Well guess what? That's what the oil is going to do whether you pull the drain plug or not.  :laughing6-hehe:

Changing cold just means you didn't sit there for 20 minutes waiting for the oil to flow into the oil pan.

Changing oil hot means that nothing has had the time to drop out of suspension, the water is not condensed onto various metal parts, and it flows easier as a bonus.

Ahh but do you use an engine oil flush product aswell? 

:lurk:

Wonder if they change this engine oil hot or cold...

Have to be Hot........that thing would take 6 weeks to cool down! Can't wait to see the frame, wheels etc. arrive, gonna be an awesome bike. :laughing6-hehe:

57 minutes ago, RC1237V

Wonder if they change this engine oil hot or cold...

[image: Kec42V0.jpg]

[image: crank.jpg]

[image: pistons.jpg]

Since most of it is in a service tank...it's less hard than you'd think.  The other thing is big engines like these have jacket water heaters.  We keep them warm (not operationally hot) when they are in standby, and prior to starting them.  I am trying to remember, I don't remember if it was prescribed to change oil at temperature or not.  But I'm really draining far more out of the service tank and sump than I am the engine, it's an even smaller percentage that we would pull out.  And again...goes through a purifier, etc.

LOL Grum beat me to it... can't wait to see the engine swap to get that in a VFR!  Only q is what gen it fits best in...

based on the dimensions, I'm thinking air cooled

4 hours ago, FJ12Ryder

Changing oil hot means that nothing has had the time to drop out of suspension, the water is not condensed onto various metal parts, and it flows easier as a bonus.

The oil has polymers that absorb the water.  That's the white layer floating on top of your oil when it's cold.  When I used to park my bike under cover but outside in NorCal, it often had condensate.

When the oil heats up, the water is released quickly evaporates.  Crank case vacuum (if so equipped on a big engine) or a breather tube will get it out pretty quickly.

Just now, rhoderage

LOL Grum beat me to it... can't wait to see the engine swap to get that in a VFR!  Only q is what gen it fits best in...

based on the dimensions, I'm thinking air cooled

Sea water cooled!  😎

7 hours ago, Grum

Have to be Hot........that thing would take 6 weeks to cool down! Can't wait to see the frame, wheels etc. arrive, gonna be an awesome bike. :laughing6-hehe:

A new Harley model . . .  the "Big Rod" .

Few weeks ago I changed the oil in one of my motorcycles. Got a glass of tea, turned on the music in the garage, it was already on the center stand and proceeded to drain the cold oil from the bike. Once the oil was drained I placed a small shim under the right side leg of the center stand to allow for a full drain and went about my business. Was very nice not to have to heat up the engine and go that full route. I know this doesn't work for everyone because it's been so ingrained into us to heat the engine up before an oil drain, but for me I'm finished with that and I'm very comfortable with it. The comfort I feel is in the fact that I haven't pumped up a significant amount of contaminates up threw the engine to have them settle within the upper end. When I make plans to change the oil in one of my bikes, it's not as though I'm a part of a pit crew challenging myself to find out how fast I can drain the oil out of the engine. It's really all about taking my time and doing it the best way I can not the fastest way. For a lot of you this won't make any sense but for me it's very liberating to know that I really don't need to perform an oil change the way I've done it so many times before. I've learned a new way to perform a task now relegated to the past. Time to move forward.

Well, consider the fact that there is a fair amount of oil sitting up around the valves and such. Draining cold means that all the contaminants

have settled out of the oil up there and will wait for the new fresh oil so they can continue to circulate. And possibly the oil in the pan has had

a chance for some of the gunk to settle to the floor of the oil pan and will sit there and not be flushed out. Nope, I'll stick to warm oil changes.

Surely running the motor to heat the oil would also mobilise the contaminants and, once the engine stops, the free flowing oil will drain to the sump with the contaminants. The oil doesn’t need to be red hot to drain well. I run the motor to get the oil hot, but don’t crack the filter or drain plug until the exhaust has cooled enough to avoid 3rd degree burns!

Although I'd say it really doesn't matter, and there's no way to get a full drain no matter what you do, I lean slightly towards warm but cold is perfectly fine too.  If you want "clean" oil, then you would simply change your oil every couple of weeks... I'd also say most I know change it more often than is necessary for engine longevity, but that argument is like asking what's the best oil to use.  I'd also say contaminants don't really settle that much, modern oils are designed to hold these in suspension more than the oils of the old days.  So, just do what makes you sleep at night is the only advice I could give.

I always ran my old 6th gen. on the centerstand up to about 150 degrees F before draining the oil.  The bike had 101,000 miles on it when I sold it, and I think the engine was still running very strong.  Would it have made a difference if I'd changed the oil cold all those years?  I have no idea, but I can say I don't think there were any detrimental effects changing it the traditional way.

If I had changed it cold, I'd have saved a few slight burns on the back of my left hand from the header pipes while removing the oil filter!  :laugh:

By the way, I was always tempted to change the oil once with some cheap stuff and a cheap filter, run it for a few miles, then change it again with good oil and a proper filter, just to see how dirty the slightly used oil would be -- more like an oil flush than an oil change, to really clean out the system.  I'm sorry I never did get around to doing that.  Has anyone ever done this, and if so what were the results?

I always run the bike for a minute

just to stir the oil up, but not up to running temp, a few high revs to get oil flowing, then drain it. This is just to pick up any contamination that may have settled out. 
 

Never drain oil from a hot engine, it acts as a heat soak for the main bearings. 

Mohawk, 8/10/2021 at 7:35 PM

Never drain oil from a hot engine, it acts as a heat soak for the main bearings.

Have not heard of this, or what the main bearings have to do with simply changing oil when hot. Are you saying you could somehow overheat the main bearings by draining the hot oil from around them?

Can you elaborate please?

8 hours ago, Mohawk

Never drain oil from a hot engine, it acts as a heat soak for the main bearings. 

Negative... there is no objective reason to follow this advice...

DannoXYZ, 7/20/2021 at 12:07 PM

Major variable in article is NOT hot vs. warm vs. cold oil. It's drain-time!!! If they had left hot & warm oil to sit for 12-hrs, it too would've drained just as much, if not more!

I agree... short time you're draining the whole engine... long time
you're draining the pan... you get more of the old oil out with just
draining the pan because it takes time for the oil to migrate under
the force of gravity out of the whole engine and into the pan...

You can't drain the "whole engine"........ 0.7 litres remain no matter how you do it, according to Honda.

51 minutes ago, BusyLittleShop

I agree... short time you're draining the whole engine... long time
you're draining the pan... you get more of the old oil out with just
draining the pan because it takes time for the oil to migrate under
the force of gravity out of the whole engine and into the pan...

I prefer to let my bike sit and drain for a while when possible, maybe 30-60 minutes maximum.

BTW, I have to say we've taken the dreaded "oil thread" to a whole new level here!  :laugh:

22 hours ago, BusyLittleShop

Negative... there is no objective reason to follow this advice...

Hi Larry, so how often do you run Mr RC45 for a good hard heat cycle then stop & drain the oil immediately? I'll start the guessing at never. 
 

Warm verses Hot ?  Hot oil drains immediately & hot shell bearings do not like losing their heat soak. Refill engine with new oil & at first crank you have no oil in the pump, so first few revs are with no oil pressure & very little residual oil if any. Why risk that ? 
 

Any way each to their own 👍 

The oil drains out of the sump, this has nothing to do with the crank since the crank isn't submerged in oil. So draining the oil will have no

effect on "heat soak". The oil pump is going to be empty, whether drained hot or cold. No difference.

Mohawk, 8/11/2021 at 9:59 AM

Hi Larry, so how often do you run Mr RC45 for a good hard heat cycle then stop & drain the oil immediately?
 

Hiya Mo

I did stop and drain Mr.RC45 hot but will not any more after reading the article... I will long time drain the pan room temp...

[image: RC45Grade30.JPG]

Interesting read - thanks.

Even though I've done countless oil changes in cars and bikes - I always hate watching the oil light stay on for those few seconds that always seems like an age whilst the engine circulates oil and fills the filter - worrying how much wear is occurring.

Those few millimetres that you don't get out on a warm/hot oil change aren't in the sump because they're still coating the bearings and moving surfaces for those few seconds of the post oil change startup - that's a good thing surely ? 

I'll be sticking with warm oil changes.

TimC, 8/9/2021 at 3:21 PM

By the way, I was always tempted to change the oil once with some cheap stuff and a cheap filter, run it for a few miles, then change it again with good oil and a proper filter, just to see how dirty the slightly used oil would be -- more like an oil flush than an oil change, to really clean out the system.  I'm sorry I never did get around to doing that.  Has anyone ever done this, and if so what were the results?

Not intentionally - but my bike has only done a couple of hundred miles in the last year due to Lockdown (like many of ours' I imagine).

Changed oil and filter last week at the 1 year point as usual anyway - oil came out surprisingly dirty, so perhaps a flush with cheap oil every few oil changes is worthwhile.

I get the bike gudenhot (technical term). I park it and loosen the left side fairing or take it off (whichever mood I'm in), which takes a few minutes. I pull the plug and then go do other stuff.  Once the headers have cooled enough not to turn my hands into molten lava, I throw some aluminum foil over them to keep oil off and pull off the filter.  I then go do more stuff for at least a couple hours total if not more.  When I finally run out of stuff to do (not the honey-do list cause it never ends) I finally button everything up and fill it.  I get the benefit of hot drain (max particulate and moisture removed like the engineers want) and cold drain (max oil removed), plus I've got other really important stuff done like watching a ball game or a MotoGP race, cleaning the kitchen (by eating stuff), etc.  

The crank sits above the oil and the oil that lubes it starts draining into the pan as soon as you cut the engine off with or without an oil change.  The same heat soak process will occur whether the pan is drained or not.  If the crank was actually in the oil, there would be foaming (a bad thing), which is why you should never overfill an engine with oil. 

Slightly funny side note:  Our quint (ladder truck with a pump, hose, etc) was overfilled when I came on shift one morning.  I took it out of service until it could be remedied.  We found out that they used "trustees" (prisoners) to change the oil instead of doing it themselves.  They never removed the old oil before adding the new.  It was overfilled by gallons!  

BlackheathMatt, 8/19/2021 at 6:00 AM

Interesting read - thanks.

Even though I've done countless oil changes in cars and bikes - I always hate watching the oil light stay on for those few seconds that always seems like an age whilst the engine circulates oil and fills the filter - worrying how much wear is occurring.

Those few millimetres that you don't get out on a warm/hot oil change aren't in the sump because they're still coating the bearings and moving surfaces for those few seconds of the post oil change startup - that's a good thing surely ? 

I'll be sticking with warm oil changes.

Nothing to worry about.

I crashed my VF500F early-on once and cracked clutch-cover. All oil spilled out. Being stupid teenager, I didn't know what oil-light meant and I just ignored it. Drove it 30-minutes back to my parents' house. My dad scolded me and said I probably toasted my engine and he'd help be take it apart to repair. Once we got cases separated, measured main & rod-bearings and found they were all within spec with no wear!!!. That was 35-yrs ago and that same engine is running fine in my bike today! Bottom-end anyway...

Another data-point are original VFR750F & VFR700F bikes used to set world-record when they 1st came out. Honda wanted engines destroyed so they would never ever get into wrong hands. They were put on dyno with oil drained from engine and ran WOT throttle. Those engines lasted over 2-hrs before they died.

There are many engines and parts that use static oil-pool or splash unpressurised oil for lubrication. So... given zero load on start-up and low-RPMs, you don't have to worry about that short time while oil-pressure is building. Due to tight clearances, bearings are always full of oil no matter how hot or how long you wait to drain.

21 minutes ago, DannoXYZ

Nothing to worry about.

I crashed my VF500F early-on once and cracked clutch-cover. All oil spilled out. Being stupid teenager, I didn't know what oil-light meant and I just ignored it. Drove it 30-minutes back to my parents' house. My dad scolded me and said I probably toasted my engine and he'd help be take it apart to repair. Once we got cases separated, measured main & rod-bearings and found they were all within spec with no wear!!!. That was 35-yrs ago and that same engine is running fine in my bike today! Bottom-end anyway...

Wouldn't you just put some oil in after replacing the cover and see how it sounded and ran first?

I didn't know anything and my dad's not a bike guy. He was 1000% sure engine was goner. At least I got free set of manuals and lesson out of this! 🙂

BlackheathMatt, 8/19/2021 at 6:00 AM

I always hate watching the oil light stay on for those few seconds that always seems like an age whilst the engine circulates oil and fills the filter - worrying how much wear is occurring.

We should all be concerned because mechanics and manufactures agree... roughly 60% of total engine wear occurs during cold start up conditions before oil can

circulate through the engine... best to turn the engine over waiting on the light before combustion...

 Liquimoly Flow Test...  5w30 flows quicker than 10w40 or 15w40... so when choosing grades its best to pick a 5w30 over a 10w40...
 

BlackheathMatt, 8/19/2021 at 3:00 PM

Those few millimetres that you don't get out on a warm/hot oil change aren't in the sump because they're still coating the bearings and moving surfaces for those few seconds of the post oil change startup - that's a good thing surely ?

So it takes you two cold starts to do an oil change?

That's why I have never done hot oil changes: a lot of wear occurs during cold starts.

1 hour ago, BusyLittleShop

We should all be concerned because mechanics and manufactures agree... roughly 60% of total engine wear occurs during cold start up conditions before oil can

circulate through the engine... best to turn the engine over waiting on the light before combustion...

 Liquimoly Flow Test...  5w30 flows quicker than 10w40 or 15w40... so when choosing grades its best to pick a 5w30 over a 10w40..

Depends upon how you use your engine. On every single engine I've worn out, it's been rings and valves that go 1st.

I would be interested in learning algorithm that arrives at that 60% figure.

"I would be interested in learning algorithm that arrives at that 60% figure."

Yeah, me too. Wonder if it comes from that area near their back pocket? 🙂

FJ12Ryder, 8/20/2021 at 8:13 PM

"I would be interested in learning algorithm that arrives at that 60% figure."

Yeah, me too. Wonder if it comes from that area near their back pocket? 🙂

I'd like to see the flow times for temps in which we typically ride - maybe 15 deg C (60 deg F) or higher.  If temps are freezing (0 deg C), I'm wrenching not riding. 

Came across this and thought I would share. 

Will Car Oil Ruin Your Motorcycle Engine? | The Shop Manual - YouTube

Excellent video kbear, one I think every motorcyclist should see.

Personally have only ever used m/c specific oils for the reasons described in the video.

Don't see why you'd contemplate or risk using a car oil when there are so many excellent m/c oils out there.

As always and especially with oil! YMMV.

1 hour ago, Kbear

Came across this and thought I would share. 

Will Car Oil Ruin Your Motorcycle Engine? | The Shop Manual - YouTube

All true.  At the same time, it takes a lot to get to the case where the auto oil = clutch slip.

We used to have a diesel test engineer on the board who explained all of this very well.  He would also add here that he goes for a low ratio between viscosities so it reduces the dependency on the VI modifiers...I.e. lower ratio will retain viscosity longer.

12 hours ago, Grum

Don't see why you'd contemplate or risk using a car oil when there are so many excellent m/c oils out there.

I'm one who really can't wrap my mind around why mc owners would want to take a chance on automobile oils either. To save a couple dollars here and there on using such oils is really not worth it. In the long run it will do more harm than good. Inevitably, you always get the mc owner that will state "I've used this or that type auto oil in my motor for 15 years with no issues". That's all fine and good if you really don't give a shit about what you own. I feel more sorry for the motorcycle than I do the owner at that point. Not sure anything could be said to change anyone's mind that is dead set against using mc specific engine oils.

“Those who never change their minds, never change anything.” - Winston Churchill

3 hours ago, Kbear

. In the long run it will do more harm than good.

Negative... either Auto or MC oil will meet and exceed your mileage  expectations...

There is no such thing as "for wet clutch" oil... given that motorcycles are small
part of the main oil market share our motorcycle oil is chiefly reformulated Auto
oil... In fact we don't find sufficient differences in additive package between
Mobil 1 Auto or Mobil 1 4T MC oil... However there is a biting difference in cost...

Here are virgin oil samples of $4.89 a quart Mobil 1 Auto Oil 10W40
and $9.98 a quart Mobil 4T Motorcycle specific oil... the additive packages
are so similar that our wet clutch wouldn't know the difference...

 [image: full-45634-40107-mobil10w40v4t10w40.jpg]

Which are the additives in oils that are advertised to deal with the shearing effects of transmission gears?  A wet clutch has never been my concern.   

“are so similar that our wet clutch wouldn't know the difference”

They are different.
 

13 hours ago, Captain 80s

Which are the additives in oils that are advertised to deal with the shearing effects of transmission gears?  A wet clutch has never been my concern.   

Those are boundary-layer extreme-pressure/extreme-heat additives such as ZDDP zinc & phosphorous for contact lubrication. Gearbox doesn't work on hydrodynamic pressure-film like with engine-bearings, so gears actually touch each other. At which point, contact area are like two mountain-ridges (one inverted) sliding & grinding against each other.  When these tips touch, intense heat & pressure is developed. ZDDP melts under such conditions and generates a tough wear-resistant ceramic-like coating at that spot to prevent further wear. 

With advent of API-SM oil-ratings, ZDDP amounts were reduced tremendously. Abundant reports of worn-out flat-tappet valve-trains ensued and was traced back to reduced lubrication in API-SM oils.  Several OEMs tried to debunk that but truth was out. Many folks resorted to using ZDDP additives to bring back EP/ET levels back to previous levels. Certain grades of Mobil-1 didn't get reduction in ZDDP due to being OEM fill for Porsche and BMW. They weren't going to upset those big customers no matter what government regulators have to say.

Moly is another lubricant and functions as small ball-bearings between surfaces. Boron is also used to enhance wear protection: https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:990746/FULLTEXT01.pdf

You can see in this comparison that moto-oil is much, much better for your transmission than auto-oil as it's higher in all types of boundary-layer EP/ET additives :

[image: full-45634-40107-mobil10w40v4t10w40.jpg]

22 hours ago, Grum

Excellent video kbear, one I think every motorcyclist should see.

Personally have only ever used m/c specific oils for the reasons described in the video.

Don't see why you'd contemplate or risk using a car oil when there are so many excellent m/c oils out there.

As always and especially with oil! YMMV.

Be very careful Grum. You could be lumped in with the likes of me and be labeled as a trouble maker. 

And this is the sort of stuff I would rather drain out of a cold engine verses starting the bike and pumping it all back around the engine to warm up the oil just to drain the oil.

This all makes me wonder why we don't see all these exploded motorcycle engines along side the road from using non-motorcycle specific oil. LOL Nope, mostly hooey, and a reason to try to sell overly expensive oil to gullible folk. Bike engines now are not much different from bike engines from 20 or 30 years ago. Metallurgy is better and parts, generally, are better machined, but DOHC engines, wet clutches, and motor oil lubed gearboxes are still with us. If anything the engines are easier on their oil since the engine temps are more evenly controlled, as opposed to so many air cooled engines from the 80's.

Nope, just refuse to buy into it...literally. 🙂

1 hour ago, FJ12Ryder

This all makes me wonder why we don't see all these exploded motorcycle engines along side the road from using non-motorcycle specific oil. LOL Nope, mostly hooey, and a reason to try to sell overly expensive oil to gullible folk. Bike engines now are not much different from bike engines from 20 or 30 years ago. Metallurgy is better and parts, generally, are better machined, but DOHC engines, wet clutches, and motor oil lubed gearboxes are still with us. If anything the engines are easier on their oil since the engine temps are more evenly controlled, as opposed to so many air cooled engines from the 80's.

Nope, just refuse to buy into it...literally. 🙂

Good for you FJ12Ryder! I, on the other hand, will be relegated to the category of those "gullible folk". 😎

21 hours ago, DannoXYZ

With advent of API-SM oil-ratings, ZDDP amounts were reduced tremendously.

Reduced zinc does not equal more wear... more zinc equals longer oil
interval protection but that is a moot point given the short oil
change intervals favored by owners... fact is in our stock engines the
majority of zinc is drained away during the oil change...

Quote 540Rat

So, modern low zinc oils CAN BE USED SAFELY with flat tappet cam
setups, even in engines with radical cams and high spring pressures.
Simply choose from the higher ranked oils on the list at the end of
this write-up, and you’ll be good to go. I know people who’ve been
using modern low zinc oils in High Performance flat tappet set-ups for
a long time, and they’ve had no issue at all.

Zinc is used/sacrificed in very small quantities at time, so the total
amount present in your oil does not change how much wear protection
the oil provides, as long as you don’t run out of zinc. “Lab Testing”
and “Wear Testing” analysis proves/confirms that more zinc provides
LONGER wear protection, NOT MORE wear protection.

More from Flat Tappet know it alls...

1. Well known and respected Engineer and Tech Author David Vizard,
whose own test data, largely based on real world engine dyno testing,
has concluded that more zinc in motor oil can be damaging, more zinc
does NOT provide todays best wear protection, and that using zinc as
the primary anti-wear component, is outdated technology.

2. The GM Oil Report titled, Oil Myths from GM Techlink, concluded
that high levels of zinc are damaging and that more zinc does NOT
provide more wear protection.

3. A motor oil research article written by Ed Hackett titled, More
than you ever wanted to know about Motor Oil, concluded that more
zinc does NOT provide more wear protection, it only provides longer
wear protection.

4. This from the Brad Penn Oil Company: There is such a thing as too
much ZDDP. ZDDP is surface aggressive, and too much can be a
detriment. ZDDP fights for the surface, blocking other additive
performance. Acids generated due to excessive ZDDP contact will
tie-up detergents thus encouraging corrosive wear. ZDDP
effectiveness plateaus, more does NOT translate into more protection.
Only so much is utilized. We dont need to saturate our oil with ZDDP.

22 hours ago, DannoXYZ

You can see in this comparison that moto-oil is much, much better for your transmission than auto-oil as it's higher in all types of boundary-layer EP/ET additives :

True but either a Auto or MC oil will meet and exceed your mileage  expectations...

All this Googling... 😆