Preparing for new tires to go on the VFR. Looked in the owners manual and I have 2 questions for those who have done it.
1) Is it really necessary to remove the front wheel speed sensor 2) do you have to remove "both" brake callipers ?
2014 VFR800 Front Wheel removal
45 posts Started 21 Apr 2022 Last recovered post 29 Apr 2022 Wayback Machine snapshot 28 Jan 2023
Can't comment on the 8th gen but I do have experience with radial callipers and ABS sensor on my MT-10. I suspect you'll run less risk of chipping the wheel rim if you remove both callipers. Just do it, and clean and lube the pistons while you have them off. As for the wheel speed sensor, these can be damaged if you are a little clumsy removing the wheel, and the clearance to to the pulser ring is usually very small, so for the sake of another couple of bolts....
Cheers !
My Africa Twin is similar but in fact you dont need to remove half of what the manual says.
Ill just follow the manual for the VFR
I have a 2014. I always take off both calipers, but have never removed the abs sensor.
53 minutes ago, VFR78I have a 2014. I always take off both calipers, but have never removed the abs sensor.
Same here on my 2014. Just add a small amount of Loctite 243 threadlocker to the caliper bolts on the install.
The head lift stand makes the job a cinch.
cheers guys, i've got a head lift stand
I take off the calipers, but don't touch the sensor.
You are also supposed to replace the caliper bolts every time, but I don't.
But definitely bounce the front end a bit to ensure proper alignment, and use a torque wrench. Settings are in the manual.
Here's instructions from the expert:
5 minutes ago, SparkieYou are also supposed to replace the caliper bolts every time, but I don't.
I think there are about 3 guys in the USA that replace the bolts every time, maybe 12 or 13 worldwide. lol
I’ve replaced the bolts on two occasions in the last 7.5 years and 72,000 km. They are hollow, so I figure they will lose their flexibility/stretching ability over time. It costs a bomb, so I can understand why people baulk at it.
Abt. $108.00 AUD a set.
That’s why I put Ti in mine
Not too sure that is the solution. I think they are supposed to stretch - once! Ti might be too strong for the alloy in the fork mounts. I really have no idea what is best. Never did mechanical engineering or metallurgy.
17 hours ago, VFR78Not too sure that is the solution. I think they are supposed to stretch - once! Ti might be too strong for the alloy in the fork mounts. I really have no idea what is best. Never did mechanical engineering or metallurgy.
Tightened firmly but never over tightened and with a little threadlocker eg. Loctite 243 applied to the threads they'll last years and years........Have never replaced the caliper bolts on the four VFR's I've had, front or rear. Still here to tell the story! :fing02:
As always YMMV.
I have never replaced calliper bolts either. My logic is they are steel bolts @ low torque where the alloy that it threads into is the limiting factor.
I’ve only done it a couple of times, purely because its cost prohibitive. What I’d really like to know, or understand, is why Mr Honda says they need to be replaced.
27 minutes ago, VFR78I’ve only done it a couple of times, purely because its cost prohibitive. What I’d really like to know, or understand, is why Mr Honda says they need to be replaced.
Lawyers?
14 hours ago, TerryI have never replaced calliper bolts either. My logic is they are steel bolts @ low torque where the alloy that it threads into is the limiting factor.
You've never seen a stretched steel bolt threaded into alloy, then? They look like this:
https://www.triumphrat.net/attachments/tiger-brake-bolt-jpg.63642/
If a bolt is repeatedly stretched, it will eventually snap. Only a question of time...
Ciao,
JZH
30 minutes ago, JZHYou've never seen a stretched steel bolt threaded into alloy, then? They look like this:
https://www.triumphrat.net/attachments/tiger-brake-bolt-jpg.63642/
If a bolt is repeatedly stretched, it will eventually snap. Only a question of time...
Ciao,
JZH
Not arguing there, but the torque on the brake bolts on all my axially mounted callipers is only 31 N-m. Which is not much more than snug. The service manual does state that the bolt is ALOC type which means it is factory supplied with threadlocker. My view is that Honda rightly consider this bolt to be critical and hence the threadlocker, and that if the bolt is re-used the threadlocker can't be relied upon.
I don't use threadlock here, but do religiously use a torque wrench. I've never seen any sign of stretch on the bolts but will keep an eye out.
8 hours ago, JZHYou've never seen a stretched steel bolt threaded into alloy, then? They look like this:
https://www.triumphrat.net/attachments/tiger-brake-bolt-jpg.63642/
If a bolt is repeatedly stretched, it will eventually snap. Only a question of time...
Ciao,
JZH
Pity there's no info about the bolt being stretched.
Was it done for demonstration? Was it incorrectly torqued? Perhaps the N-m torque value was incorrectly read as Ft-lb? Was the bolt faulty from manufacturer? How many reuse cycles had it done? What would be the state of the internal threads after such over tightening?
I inspect my caliper bolts before reinstalling, none have ever looked anything like the photo, I'd certainly bin it if it did, will continue to keep a close eye on them. As mentioned I never over torque them and use a little 243 threadlocker when installing.
I guess there's a similar analogy to those who believe chains should only ever be replaced with new sprockets!
Just for the fun of it! Took out one of the caliper bolts. 90,000k's and with brake pad and tyre changes has now done seven removal and installs.
And most certainly.....YMMV.
[image: 20220426_095113.jpg]
Honda wants new bolts on the Africa Twin callipers as well. I dont change the calliper bolts, I just re apply thread locker and re use them. they not that tightly torqued.
Maybe Honda was worried some folks might use the inferior Triumph bolts... :goofy:
Working on cars for a living for quite some time, and wrenching on cars and bikes all my life, I don't think I've ever seen a bolt that bad. Seen some with stripped threads, buggard up threads, corroded, rusted, pitted, and bent. I'm also a machinist, so I do notice things on fasteners way more than most people. almost looks like inferior metallurgy, or waaay over-torqueing many times in a row. Usually, the offender will rip out the alloy threads in their nice aluminum mating part first.
Let's see what Danno says, he's seen more than I have...
Did a bit of a search. These bolts seem to be as rare as rocking horse shit in Australia!
According to Honda's recommendation of one use only, you'd need 4 new bolts every time you either drop the front wheel off for a new tyre or to fit new pads, and that these bolts are used on multiple bike models, there should be thousands of these bolts readily available, there just isn't!
No wonder they are rarely if ever replaced!
Part Number 90131-MEL-000 Flange Bolt 10×57mm.
They are rare. I’ve waited at least a month for mine. Very strange all around!
Terry, 4/25/2022 at 9:19 PMNot arguing there, but the torque on the brake bolts on all my axially mounted callipers is only 31 N-m. Which is not much more than snug. The service manual does state that the bolt is ALOC type which means it is factory supplied with threadlocker. My view is that Honda rightly consider this bolt to be critical and hence the threadlocker, and that if the bolt is re-used the threadlocker can't be relied upon.
I don't use threadlock here, but do religiously use a torque wrench. I've never seen any sign of stretch on the bolts but will keep an eye out.
Have seen a few "waisted "bolts on Cbrs over the years.
Usually the result of someone using the "arm-strong" torque wrench, I bet
German good-n-tite method.
26 minutes ago, bmartGerman good-n-tite method.
No, a good German always uses a torque wrench with +/- 0.001% accuracy!
8 hours ago, WaldNo, a good German always uses a torque wrench with +/- 0.001% accuracy!
And every bolt gets its own serial number! :laugh:
Bolt or bullet? They're trying that too!
Wow, that bolt is special, it's 10 X 57 and cost $15.55 each. The 1200 has radial calipers as well, and uses a 10 X 67 and they are only $3.84 each...
The Gen 8 bolts are tubular, so standard torque settings and stretch characteristics go out the window. Why are they hollow? Who knows, but there has to be a reason. Maybe it’s so they can flex under braking, just like aeroplane wings flex in flight and consequently they may fail over time. Everyone seems to be focusing on the threadlock treatment as the reason for replacing them, I can’t see that as particularly relevant, when it’s easily removed from the fittings, with a tap and die, and then replaced. I’m not suggesting they should or should not be replaced, just would like to know the rationale. Lawyers probably have an input, but there must be a concern, somewhere in Mr Honda, that they might fail after repeated stressing. There has to be more to it and it would be nice to know.
3 hours ago, VFR78The Gen 8 bolts are tubular, so standard torque settings and stretch characteristics go out the window. Why are they hollow? Who knows, but there has to be a reason. Maybe it’s so they can flex under braking, just like aeroplane wings flex in flight and consequently they may fail over time. Everyone seems to be focusing on the threadlock treatment as the reason for replacing them, I can’t see that as particularly relevant, when it’s easily removed from the fittings, with a tap and die, and then replaced. I’m not suggesting they should or should not be replaced, just would like to know the rationale. Lawyers probably have an input, but there must be a concern, somewhere in Mr Honda, that they might fail after repeated stressing. There has to be more to it and it would be nice to know.
Hi VFR78.
I think there can be no doubt that Honda are protecting themself against litigation, especially given the vitally important job these bolts do, Honda can't afford to rely on good common sense and trade skills as these are not that common! Specifying a one use recommendation is there only sure way of covering themselves. Doubt you'd ever get a proper technical reason from Honda.
Perhaps its over torquing and/or the rotational stress from radial mounted calipers under extreme braking conditions that might cause the stretching effect.
The bolts being hollow might be to reduce unsprung weight and/or improve caliper heat dissipation.
Each to their own, but the way I look at it is, if the bolts have never been over torqued, are closely inspected before installation for any sign stretching, and a small amount of Loctite blue 243 threadlocker is applied all should be fine. Can't say I've ever heard of a caliper jumping off its mount from properly installed bolts be they old or new, however, I'm sure someone will come back at me with an example!
And YMMV. :fing02:
To add to the confusion, I compared the length of a new bolt, to a used bolt, using a digital vernier. The bloody new bolt was longer, go figure! Time to move on now, me thinks.
I've thought about drilling the heads and safety wiring the bolts rather than using thread lock, but never have gotten around to it. Unfortunately that's not an option on the SMC side caliper on LBS bikes. I sometimes cringe a bit at running a tap through the aluminum boss to clean out the old thread lock compound.
It seems as though Honda could have designed the system so that bosses on the forks take the braking stresses directly and the bolts only retain the caliper to the boss rather than placing the forces on the bolts themselves. As pointed out though, I also don't ever recall of a failure due to a failed bolt or one backing out. Even if a bolt did back out it would be so obvious that anyone couldn't help but notice. But it takes just once . . .
Don't use tap, thread-chaser better for cleaning existing threads.
Most of load is carried on skin of bolt. Equation for torsional rigidity is 4th-power. So tiny increase in diameter increases strength tremendously. Going from 8mm bolt most commonly used on calipers to 10mm increases rigidity by 244%.
To solve for loss of rigidity when hollowing out bolt, take torsional rigidity of bolt same size as hole and subtract from larger value of solid bolt. You'll see it actually loses very little being hollow. That's also why axles are hollow. And tubing used in trellis and bicycle frames are hollow. In fact, Ducatis are made from same Columbus chromoly tubing used to make racing bicycle frames.
BTW, calculate tension on bolt from torque used, it's nowhere even close to yield-strength of material. In fact, it's well below fatigue-limit, meaning it can undergo infinite tightening/loosening cycles (SN) to spec torque without failure. Photo above of stretched Triumph bolt was obviously from over-tightening. Also came from land of warm beer because Lucas Electronics also makes refrigerators...
Be careful about replacing steel directly with Ti in high-load structural applications. While yield and ultimate-strength of grade-9 3al/2.5v Ti is similar to 4130 chromoly steel, Ti has only 1/2 the rigidity (young's modulus). Meaning while both can take similar loads before breaking, the Ti will flex more under same loads. Ti's modulus is only 1/2 of steel regardless of alloy composition of either. So for same loads, Ti will bend twice as much! For something like radial caliper mounting where rigidity is important, I'd stay away from Ti.
Applications using Ti would be specifically designed with material's properties in mind. In this case, if Honda was to use Ti bolts, they would probably use 12mm Ti bolts to account for its higher bending amounts.
Seems like this is perfect application for belleville or Nord-lock washer.
1 hour ago, DannoXYZAlso came from land of warm beer because Lucas Electronics also makes refrigerators...
Still LMAO regarding this reference. I always refer to Lucas electrics as "prince of darkness".
8 hours ago, CogswellIt seems as though Honda could have designed the system so that bosses on the forks take the braking stresses directly and the bolts only retain the caliper to the boss rather than placing the forces on the bolts themselves.
The radial callipers on my MT-10 are like that; the calliper has a recess that fits over a boss on the fork leg, and the bolts just hold the two together.
10 hours ago, CogswellIt seems as though Honda could have designed the system so that bosses on the forks take the braking stresses directly and the bolts only retain the caliper to the boss rather than placing the forces on the bolts themselves.
Hi Cogs and Terry.
The 8gen front caliper is the same. There are two locating collars that lock the caliper to the mounting boss, and the bolts, as suggested, retain the caliper to the boss.
Picture doesn't show it too well!
[image: 20220429_084523.jpg]
7 hours ago, WaldStill LMAO regarding this reference. I always refer to Lucas electrics as "prince of darkness".
Me Too! I had a 1980 Triumph TR8. So I 've seen the Prince Of Darkness. Our British Car Club's moto was: "But when it runs!"
1 hour ago, GrumHi Cogs and Terry.
The 8gen front caliper is the same. There are two locating collars that lock the caliper to the mounting boss, and the bolts, as suggested, retain the caliper to the boss.
Picture doesn't show it too well!
[image: 20220429_084523.jpg]
That is, IMHO, a much better design than earlier gens. But, they all seem to work. YMMV
2 hours ago, MaxSwellMe Too! I had a 1980 Triumph TR8. So I 've seen the Prince Of Darkness. Our British Car Club's moto was: "But when it runs!"
Didn’t the TR6’s catch fire occasionally too. I’ve seen a bubbling bonnet before.
19 hours ago, VFR78Didn’t the TR6’s catch fire occasionally too. I’ve seen a bubbling bonnet before.
I never heard of that happening in our club during my membership. And we had some fine TR6's among us. Before the TR8's introduction, TR6 would have been my choice among the two-seater ragtops available at the time.
1 hour ago, MaxSwellI never heard of that happening in our club during my membership. And we had some fine TR6's among us. Before the TR8's introduction, TR6 would have been my choice among the two-seater ragtops available at the time.
Sitting in traffic on Chandos St, in Sydney, in the 70s. It also cracked a rear suspension arm, maybe because of our crappy roads. A motorcycle racing buddy, from a wealthy family. He moved on to a V12 E type 2+2 after that. Now that was a proper car!! Lost his life racing a Jota.
End of thread · 45 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 28 Jan 2023