the airbox would also work quite nicely on them if one would weld bolt on flanges to the tops of them. they are almost perfect for height.
the fuel rail will be a difficulty tho, i may have to twist the rear bank around and make two rails. and join them in the center or something. fuel supply will be returnless rail.
no, i think that would be too much of a pain in the ass right now. ill use the factory ignition module for that at this point. maybe at some other time i will adapt it.
does anyone know if the VFR engine is an even fire or odd? i have not found any firing order versus crank rotation yet, so im not sure.
Not sure what to say here, I don't know what you're going for. Is this suppose to improve performance, or are you just looking to reincarnate a bike with those parts? unsure.gif
flyguyeddy, Dec 25 2006, 12:21 PMthats the engine out of my 91. im fuel injecting it. i dont like carbs
plus i like to geek things out too much haha
That sounds like an interesting project, I'm curious to see how it turns out! fing02.gif
i have actually looked into it quite a bit and it is very feasable. i was pretty excited when the throttle body slipped into the carb boot and locked down. that was my biggest fear was that they wouldnt fit. making carb boots is out of my expertise and i have no way to get them made anyway.
Wow, that could be a very complicated project. How are you going to establish a working fuel map (with good drivability) for the 750 engine? That's like starting from zero. I think that there is no established fuel injected baseline for the V4 750 street engine. The RC30/45 engines have a totally different crank phasing. I still think someone should come up with a dual or single point throttle body conversion kit for carbed bikes. Less injectors should make it a little bit easier to tune the bike to an acceptable level and make the conversion a simpler procedure. JMO
Good luck on the project and keep us 3rd and 4th genners on how it goes! fing02.gif
Beck, Dec 25 2006, 01:12 PMWow, that could be a very complicated project. How are you going to establish a working fuel map (with good drivability) for the 750 engine? That's like starting from zero. I think that there is no established fuel injected baseline for the V4 750 street engine. The RC30/45 engines have a totally different crank phasing. I still think someone should come up with a dual or single point throttle body conversion kit for carbed bikes. Less injectors should make it a little bit easier to tune the bike to an acceptable level and make the conversion a simpler procedure. JMO
Good luck on the project and keep us 3rd and 4th genners on how it goes! fing02.gif
Beck 95 VFR
i went with the 4 point injection system because i dislike single injector throttle body style injection systems. all you really get with that setup is a little less complication. you still have to tune a fuel map, and i would think that having one big injector might make idle rough, due to relatively low (in comparison) injector opening times. on the 4 injector setup you have a single smaller injector per cylinder that works better for that kind of thing.
i know i have to start out from scratch basically, but thats also what im doing with putting fuel injection on the engine. if i can manage that hurdle, i think i will have no problem coming up with a driveable map, then it goes to the dyno for fine tuning wtih a gas analyser (which is really what u should do with a carb bike too, but not alot of people do it that way). dyno tuning should be quicker and easier too, cause all u really have to do is change a number on the computer and your good. dyno tuning a carb bike would be a huge bitch on this bike (i would think at least)
my biggest worry is the airbox, and if i shouldnt just make a custom one. the bike will be getting ram air and a F4i front fairing, so im thinking everyhting is going to pretty much have to be custom.
Hmm interesting project. Airbox should be a challengefor sure. Theres a lot of technoligy that goes into those airbox designs to keep a constant 14.7psi in them. Custom might not be a valid option, IMO. Keep us informed on how it goes.
tinyminds, Dec 25 2006, 04:17 PMHmm interesting project. Airbox should be a challengefor sure. Theres a lot of technoligy that goes into those airbox designs to keep a constant 14.7psi in them. Custom might not be a valid option, IMO. Keep us informed on how it goes.
anything i make is going to be fairly large, and most likely take up all the space under the tank. and it will be vented straight to the front of the bike with as large a tube as i can fit, so i really dont forsee much of a problem in that department. the airbox cover on my bike has a pretty small opening.
as a side note, does anyone have any idea where to get velocity stacks that are made out of turned aluminum? im looking for something i can weld a bead around to keep on these throttles with a rubber boot. maybe ill just use the stock gsxr boots and get over it. i still have to figure out how thats all going to work out. maybe individual filters inside an airbox?
i will be making my own throttle shafts, due to having to run both sets of injectors facing the back of the bike with two fuel rails. i wont be able to use the honda setup because both sets of throttles will pull the same way, not opposite, so its going to have to be all custom for this one. i am thinking the only real problem i am going to have is with extending the adjuster arms out so they can mesh together. the carbs have a longer shaft, these dont.
these will all be bolted together. i dont want vibration or anything to bind them or cause unsynchronized throttle opening.
I tried ram air on my 95 & it didn't work, bike was either geting to much air or not enough. I removed the ducts I installed & everything ran fine again. It may have worked with more trial & error but I'm not a fuel/carby expert so went back to what worked.
I applaud your guts. I thought about it, but thats as far as it got.
On the velocity stacks, talk to Mr.RC45. He made some out of delrin, but they did not work for his application. He can lend some insight into the project.
Keep us appraised. I would love to do this for a 1400 V4 I am working on, if realtively easy. I am also eyeing a VF1K project.
Wouldn't adapting current 5th or 6th gen FI system be a easier route? ( I have no clue) but would think the config. would be pretty close and provide fuel rails, linkage, air box, etc. that was designed for a very similar set-up. fing02.gif
i looked into adapting the current fuel injection assembly into the older bikes but from the pictures i have seen it seems a poor choice for a few reasons:
i hear the TPS isnt replaceable (this may not be true) the throttle bores point straight down. i believe the head also points straight up, ours does not. mucho grande problemo. i dont like all of the vacuum hoses on those things. i believe mine will have a total of like one per throttle body to a small surge tank, so i can have a manifold vacuum reference sensor so i dont have to run alpha-n tuning.
the only real problem i can forsee with this setup is the linkages between them. i need to go look to see how a few other people have done it.
i LOVE the way he did that. bolt on hub thingys with extension shafts. what a freeking great idea. and i love the way he bolts them all together. i will be making a somewhat direct copy of that.
he tilted his so that he could have a single fuel rail. i care not about this so i wont be doin that. plus i love the fit of the stock carb boots to these.
flyguyeddy, Dec 29 2006, 12:19 AMany thoughts, comments, suggestions?
Some more pics could help.
I would start looking into rigid connecting links. A simple system could be built to connect the throttle linkages, but you have to know what you need and what is available before you can start designing. The thing that I see as a real concern is the ability to sync the throttles. Most rod-type rigid connecting links have screw in ends that you could use to match the throw from on single cable pull (/pull ) link, so that presents a plus. That may not be a very simple adjustment style, but it should be semi-permanent.
You might try looking into small airplane flight control rods. They may offer the selection of parts you need.
flyguyeddy, Dec 30 2006, 12:02 PMi have thought about that, but i think ill do what the guy in the link did and use small rod ends and turn myself some rods to connect them.
that nice round ball end looks alot more resilient than the airplane linkages i have used on RC planes before.
but it is a really good idea.
Yeah, turnbuckles do sound like a good idea, but make sure you use Loctite on the ends, so they don't vibrate out of adjustment.
flyguyeddy, Dec 31 2006, 01:17 PMhmmm. thats somehing to keep my eye on. what abut having a lock nut on the shaft? think that would be alright?
Yeah, probably. Personally I'd go for the Loctite, it's less complicated, and would make adjustments easier, if you ever had the need. The blue stuff works great.
well i tried to e-mail the guy from that site and i have yet to recieve a reply. has anyone tried to get ahold of that person? maybe ill just flood his inbox till he answers.
What a wonderful project. I know precious little about FI so this project has me in awe. Enjoy the adventure.
The bit that you see as difficult - the throttle linkage - is the bit I do understand. I had done some preliminary work on measuring up to replace the throttle cable drum on my 5th gen with a logarithmic (progressive) snail drum with the idea of reducing the snatchiness of the throttle at small openings.
Quiet-Flo™ Electric Fuel Pumps for EFI Applications These EFI fuel pumps are also manufactured by Essex Industries. With anodized aluminum housings and high-quality internals, they are both strong and durable. Each pump is factory-tested and includes mounting brackets. #1790 features a –10 AN inlet/outlet and a flow rate of 80 GPH at 45 psi for use with high-hp fuel injected applications. The in-line design keeps the pump motor and components cool even under harsh conditions. The new Victor EFI fuel pump #1794 is rated at 120 GPH at 45 psi and has –12 AN inlet/outlets and is compatible with all grades of gasoline and methanol type fuels.
80 GPH at 45 psi, –10 AN inlet/outlet for EFI applications #1790
flyguyeddy, Jan 3 2007, 04:24 PMwell i tried to e-mail the guy from that site and i have yet to recieve a reply. has anyone tried to get ahold of that person? maybe ill just flood his inbox till he answers.
or maybe just resend it every day.
Hey flyguyeddy, GREAT project! It took about a week, but I got a reply from Durban about getting his ex RC30 carbs from his project. I got thinking about it, plus his encouragement toward FI, and after I get my 12A rotary/Lotus 7/V3.0 Megasquirt('n Spark) sorted out, I shall follow in your contrail. Lead on, Obi-Wan! Jabez
12a? oh come on now, you KNOW you want a 13b from a FD. i would.
i have front and rear suspension from a Merkur XR4Ti for just a project as well. but FE3 will be the powerplant. probably N/A.
anyway, how did u get ahold of him?
since he has replied to you, can u get some more info from him on how he attatched his linkages together? i never got a reply from him on mine.
i need close ups and stuff of the joiners between the throttle bodies on the front and rear bank. i already know what to do with the front to rear linkage.
any assistance you can get from him will be much appreciated.
i am trying to find a fuel pump and regulator for the whole assembly, which is proving to be quite a feat in its own. anyone know where to get ahold of a small efi pressure pump? space is at a desperate premium on these bikes.
Just a quick what about question here. I'm watching this too but one of the biggies is how are you going to get the cams in sinc with the FI? I talked with Mike Valasco an ex HRC factory tuner and probably the smartest guy on the planet when it comes to VFRs and how lucky is it to have him 50 miles away, anyway we got talking about this FI thing, In his opinion, first off thinking is, it would be real tricky due in part you'll need a cam sensor Hmmm? just curious how you are going to get around that? as the 5th gens have it built into the engine.
injection events do not have to be synched with intake valve opening. however the injection events will be timed with ignition events on the other side of the engine. probably two squirts per cycle. i'll treat it as an odd fire engine and make it squirt accordingly.
i guess i could rig up some kind of cam sensor, but i dont need it. this is basically a carbuerator replacement.
bear in mind i will NOT be using factory fuel computers. this is purely stand alone.
this has been done on a Vmax, so i cant see why it wouldnt work on our engines. the vmax runs something like 200 horse on spray too, all controlled by the standalone computer i plan on using.
thats probably my only option. ive looked into it but i have not had any of the items on the msd page in my hands so i have no idea exactly how big they are. there isnt alot of space on the side of the bike.
does anyone think that i should use the stock upper and mid sections to the airbox and make a lower that they will bolt to? or just go hog wild and make my own airbox?
the last one might prove to be the trickey one, cause i dont know what to do for a filter. possibly a nice big rectangle from some car? carbon fiber or fiberglass?
I would try to use as many stock components as possible, including the airbox. You might be able to get some sheet aluminum, I would guess you'd want right around .032 thick, not really sure what type, I've kinda forgotten the exact differences of 2024 T-6, or T-4, there are also other types out there. I would just try to make something that could bolt up to the bottom of the stock airbox, but again, that's just me. You're a far braver man than I am, good luck on this!!!
I'm in the middle of researching the aoucoustics of tuning airboxes. I should have my hands on some more reference material on Monday that should finish off what I need. I'm tuning an R6 airbox right now, but with a little research, I could probably work some numbers around and theoretically tune an airbox for your project.
Let me know, it will be more than a couple of weeks before I could have the numbers done, if you are in a hurry.
End of thread · 44 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 26 Mar 2007
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