So, everyone loves the VFR, but want more power and performance that a 1000cc V4 and all the farkles that upgrades bring. So why can't Honda do mods to the present 800cc V4 that we all know and love and give us 120-150 HP or use a modified version of the GP engine (i know this might be a little more difficult as the GP engine is never really designed with production in mind, but is truly just a labratory on wheels)?
I am not an engine guy, so forgive me if this question is asking the obvious, but if they dont want to redesign everything, why cant they just do these basic mods and call it the 7th gen?
V4 w/ 140HP
inverted shocks
fully adjustable rear
It seems to me that this would be easy to do, not cost them too much, allow the sport/tourer folks to keep buying Honda......win-win....
so someone elighten me as to all the difficulties and issues with doing this :lurk:
it might just be easier from a reliability standpoint to up the displacement instead of making it a high strung 800cc
me and a friend have always chatted about building a VFR engine up to those sort of HP levels. (140 that is) now it wouldnt be cheap but it is doable it would just require all the NA Tricks.
High compression, increased displacement, cams, aftermarket ignition (not a PC3), etc. but ive always told him that if they can get 200+hp out of the same displacement theres no reason it cant make 140+.
CBR600RR FX Kit from honda makes approx 145whp that is an increase of 30ish hp. on an already high strung engine. now granted they want around $13000 for the FX kit.
I even like the idea of making it a VF750R. but if everybody else is going to jump on the 800cc bandwagon over the next few years. then why not make it a high output 800.
could be GSXR800, R8, ZX8, RVF800R or VF800R
I know this is going against the thread here but I still believe less weight would benefit the VFR vs more Hp. Of course that hurts on the touring side of the bike's features but she has always had plenty of pickup and go for me (granted I weight a whole 140 lbs and am 30 lbs heavier than my girlfriend). ;)
And an increase in displacement = an increase in the displacement of money for insurance. :warranty:
[image: View Post]turtlecreek, on May 21 2008, 06:01 AM, said:
so someone elighten me as to all the difficulties and issues with doing this :lurk:
From an engineering standpoint it would be easy. Look at how many VFRD members have already done everything you mention to their "old" VFRs (including, with the ToroCharger, achieving the HP numbers you're looking for)! Clearly Honda as a company has lost it's way.
It's doable alright, as the stock internals now hold up just fine to ~168hp @ the crank. The only problem I see from an engineering standpoint is the cost associated with higher quality materials, electronics, & machining, as you will need a hotter cam design, higher rev-limit capacity, and different exhaust & head design, all of which might hurt regular rideability a bit and certainly cost more.
Of course, with all the advances in engine management (with fly-by-wire and variable length runners) anything is possible, and Honda could make a fine street engine out of it, but again, cost goes up. I'm sure this would also necessitate running high octane gas. Plus, since the displacement is not changing, torque remains very similar to what it is now.
You would certainly think there is a market for the changes you propose, but I guess that is a decision for Honda's braintrust to figure out. In the meantime, if it is more power that you seek, I will have a solution for you shortly.
[image: View Post]FotoMoto, on May 21 2008, 07:31 AM, said:
When most folks ask for more hp, what they really want is more torque. Easiest way to get big yet reliable torque: more displacement.
If you haven't ridden an FJR with its 100 ft/lbs of torque, please do. They needed 1300 cc's to do it but it's nirvana.
Exactly, Moto GP engines produce an amazing amount of hp but need to spin at a very high RPM to do it. That�s why they are looking at pneumatic valves. Regular springs can�t keep up. I�m not saying you couldn�t get 140 Hp out of 800 cc�s and still have a decent street motor but you would get more torque and have to use less rpm�s with a 1000.
They wouldn't have to engineer and produce a whole new bike, just a transmission and frame. The ST engine IS a "V-4", the rest is available in parts from other models (inverted forks from a 900RR or 929 for example). Granted it's much larger than a lot of people can muscle around the driveway, but it already is in production AND it's not a VTEC. Yamaha had the "V-Max" and it was a 1200cc engine. I'm a "bigger than the average bear" sized guy and have no problems pushing around my Blackbird and I've pushed around a V-Max or three before as well. The average rider size would likely have some measure of difficulty if the bike went over in a parking lot, heck some already do with the current rendition.
The bugs have been and are worked out for the ST engine. Cost for "tooling up" would be on the light side, by comparisson to building a completely new bike. The fact of the matter is that Honda had their "flagship" V-4 engine in three commercial classes at one point (500, 700 & 1000). They have backed off from that stance. The marketing push, currently, is in the direction of the squid based "race replicas". They don't care how many get wadded, that just means more sales to replace then trashed ones. Less needs to be spent on general advertising as the televised race coverage does a lot of that by proxy. The sophisticated and more mature riders that are attracted by the VFR are given just enough from Honda to "keep them in the fold". Otherwise the marketing department figures, IMO, that "they'll move onto a BMW" or whatever.
They allow the rumors to persist because it again is advertising, of a sort, that they don't have to spend any money on. Yes it can be done. The quickest way to get a performance increase to go bigger (it makes the math easier). I just don't see Honda going in that direction right now. Even if it were to happen, American Honda would probably choose to not import them. Afterall, there ARE VFR400's available in Japan and Ausralia. There are current new production models of the CBR1100XX too, but American Honda stopped importing them in 2003. Part of the formula for lack of VFR enthusiasm is Honda Coprotate, but some of the blame HAS to be placed on the decission maker(s) at American Honda as well. They do not hear us and if they do, they ignore what we are saying. I got tired of waiting and got myself a Blackbird. If a liter VFR came out, I'd still end up waiting a year or two until the bugs got addressed anyway. Doesn't mean I don't want to see it happen, I'm just not holding my breath.....................any longer.
[image: View Post]toro1, on May 21 2008, 08:14 AM, said:
You would certainly think there is a market for the changes you propose, but I guess that is a decision for Honda's braintrust to figure out. In the meantime, if it is more power that you seek, I will have a solution for you shortly.
There's your answer right there. And you don't even need to wait for Honda to make it happen. :fing02:
More torque is what the VFR needs more than anything. A jump in displacement as has been said, is the easiest way to get there. The bike really does not need more HP at the wheel than 120-125 which puts it at 130-140 at the crank. (So we are only talking a bump in power of 22-32) The bike is an aging design and has gone from a front line track tool to a middleweight sport tourer over the years...so (sadly) Big HP numbers are not in the bikes mission statement any more.
I fear, unless Honda does what I proposed months ago the VFR will be dead very soon..and that is a shame because it's a very good motorcycle...It simply does not sell well enough anymore, and costs too much to build.
For the benefit of those who don't know here was my proposal.
1. Use the ST1300 engine sleeved down to 1000cc (but keep the stroke as much as possible) so they can keep the V4.
2. Add higher compression and more cam lift to add performance.
3. Modify the final drive so the engine can retain the fore-aft arrangement.
4. Design a new frame to carry this engine. (I doubt the present frame could be modifyed enough to do it.)
5. Keep as many of the present components as possible. (To keep costs down)
Then...Bore the actual ST1300 engine out to say 1400-1500cc to give some product seperation.
Honda is then left with a performance sport tourer as well as a luxury sport tourer using a lot of existing components...and spitting the costs between more then one model...making it cheaper on them to manufacture the bikes. In any event it would be MUCH cheaper for them than if they designed an entirely new motorcycle from scratch.
I'm very happy with my 02 Vtec with mostly just suspension upgrades(Ohlins/forks), I've tore up close to 60k miles of twisties and many other bikes doing so. I don't need more or new, sure less weight or 20 ft lbs of extra torque would be nice.
All that would really do for me would be to force me to do longer wheelies! :wheel:
I never have been one to need the latest or greatest of anything, in fact I rather enjoy kicking peoples butt in the twisties on the fat pig, under powered VFR or beating 186 hp GSXR 1000's in the A group with my old F4i on the track.
I find that much more satisfying personally. :rolleyes:
[image: View Post]vanion2, on May 21 2008, 11:46 AM, said:
[image: View Post]toro1, on May 21 2008, 08:14 AM, said:
You would certainly think there is a market for the changes you propose, but I guess that is a decision for Honda's braintrust to figure out. In the meantime, if it is more power that you seek, I will have a solution for you shortly.
There's your answer right there. And you don't even need to wait for Honda to make it happen. :fing02:
But I just heard that Honda is coming out with a new VFR next year with all kinds or changes :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
[image: View Post]cruzinaz, on May 21 2008, 09:59 AM, said:
[image: View Post]vanion2, on May 21 2008, 11:46 AM, said:
[image: View Post]toro1, on May 21 2008, 08:14 AM, said:
You would certainly think there is a market for the changes you propose, but I guess that is a decision for Honda's braintrust to figure out. In the meantime, if it is more power that you seek, I will have a solution for you shortly.
There's your answer right there. And you don't even need to wait for Honda to make it happen. :fing02:
But I just heard that Honda is coming out with a new VFR next year with all kinds or changes :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
i think were gonna see some big things in the next 2-3 yrs from honda.
i just hope they dont force VCM and ABS on all of us.
this is from there press release yesterday
TOKYO, Japan, May 21, 2008 � A new 3-year mid-term plan began in April of this year. The basic idea for this 3-year plan is to establish a corporate structure necessary to sustain our strengths and that will enable us to grow globally in the future, and begin such efforts initially under the leadership of our operations in Japan.
Two concrete directions are set as followings;
To create world-leading environmental technologies, bring them to life as products, and offer them to more customers.
To achieve a significant advancement toward the next generation of manufacturing systems which will enable Honda to create such advanced products.
Japan will play a central role. The goal of our efforts will be to mature technologies and products in Japan, which put Honda at the forefront in the area of environment, and evolve them from Japan to the world along with the advancement of our manufacturing systems and capabilities.
Toward this end, various measures will be taken with a focus on the following three core areas;
Strengthening motorcycle business
Innovation of automobile manufacturing in Japan
Hybrid strategy to achieve full-scale market penetration
1. Strengthening motorcycle business
[ Importance of motorcycle business / 50th anniversary of Super Cub ]
Honda began its business with motorcycles, entered into the global market with motorcycles, and established a business foundation which later enabled Honda to enter into the automobile business.
Motorcycle business is the driving force of Honda�s growth and expansion, and it is one of the key strengths of Honda that other automakers do not have.
Honda currently sells more than 13 million motorcycles annually including commuters which provide an essential means of transportation for people in their daily lives as well as recreational large-size motorcycles which provide the joy of riding.
Among such Honda motorcycle products, the Super Cub model that represents Honda is celebrating its 50th anniversary this year.
The Japanese-born Super Cub has maintained its original creative concept and basic style, but has continuously advanced as a model that accommodates the needs and preferences of people in different areas around the world. As a result, the Cub series achieved cumulative worldwide production of 60 million units (as of the end of April 2008).
Demand for motorcycles as a means of transportation is expected to continue to grow mainly in Asian and South American nations. In addition, considering the global high price of crude oil, there is a good chance that motorcycles will be considered not only in developing countries but on a global basis.
Honda will create motorcycle products which reflect the unique characteristics of Honda and exceed the expectations of customers while striving to develop another model which creates a new motorcycle category and market as did the Super Cub.
[ Strengthening motorcycle production ]
Toward this end, it is important to strengthen motorcycle production. The new motorcycle plant at Honda�s Kumamoto Factory, which began operating in April 2008, will play a key role.
The goals of the transfer of motorcycle production from Hamamatsu, the birthplace of Honda, to Kumamoto are; 1) to improve efficiency by consolidating production and 2) to strengthen Honda�s ability to build motorcycle products which offer new value with even higher quality.
Moreover, Honda will thoroughly strengthen its manufacturing operations at the starting point in Japan, dramatically enhance its competitiveness, and leverage this enhanced competitiveness to further grow and advance its global motorcycle business.
Production at the new motorcycle plant at Kumamoto Factory will reach its full-capacity in the first half of 2009.
In order to efficiently produce approximately 60 models, from commuters to large-size motorcycles, Honda conceived and built from scratch highly efficient and ideal production lines to accommodate the unique characteristics of each model.
In addition to employing various state-of-the-art equipment, reducing the number of production processes and increased automation are used for mass production models. The new plant will produce motorcycles on three main lines which achieve a high level of human resource efficiency and high flexibility. The new plant also has 15 cell lines where high value added products are assembled completely by a small team of associates.
These cell lines make it possible to build a product with enhanced attractiveness and quality. At the same time, a cell line has a significant benefit in the area of human resource development as it is ideal for the advancement of associates� skills and sharing of production know-how.
Through these initiatives, including a 20% improvement in workforce efficiency compared to the existing plant, Honda will strive to establish a strong motorcycle production system which will remain highly competitive even if the exchange rate of the Japanese yen to the U.S. dollar is in the 90s.
The new plant also is an environmentally-responsible plant which reduces CO2 emissions by approximately 20% compared to the existing plant through various efforts including utilization of natural energy.
As the leader plant within Honda�s global motorcycle production network, and as a source of Honda�s strength to create products that will exceed the expectations of our customers around the world, Kumamoto Factory will be a driving force of motorcycle business growth in the future.
[ Strengthening technological and product attributes ]
In the area of environmental technology, installation of PGM-FI (Honda�s Programmed Fuel Injection) on all scooters sold in Japan is now virtually completed, and PGM-FI will be installed on to all Honda motorcycles sold in Thailand by the end of 2009. Honda plans to install PGM-FI on most of its motorcycles worldwide by the end of 2010.
In the area of safety technology, Honda will install a motorcycle airbag system and ABS (Antilock Brake System) on more products. Honda plans to install ABS in all 250cc or larger class models worldwide, except off-road models, by the end of 2010.
In advancing nations, Honda will introduce a new model, in the most popular 100cc class, which achieves high fuel efficiency, high performance, and low cost. Sales of this new model will begin first in Thailand in summer 2008 and then in other Asian countries.
In advanced nations, Honda will introduce its innovative environmental and safety technologies including a Variable Cylinder Management (VCM) system for motorcycles which significantly improves fuel efficiency as well as electronically-controlled combined ABS (C-ABS), an advanced brake system which further improves stability while braking. Moreover, Honda will improve the product attractiveness of medium-to-large size models and strengthen those aspects of a product which contribute to the joy of riding .
Motorcycle R&D will also be strengthened with a determination and passion to create the Super Cub of the next generation.
A little more torque, a few more cc's, upgraded suspension and a bit less weight would be good, but I'm pretty happy with my 6th gen as-is - following the few mods I've done anyway. Losing weight from my bulk would do a lot more good than shaving off a pound or two here and there from the bike. Also, since I only ride solo, there is enough power for me. But...
If Honda made and sold a new VFR w/900-1000cc engine and suspension improvements, I'd buy one...eventually. Like Growler67 said above, I'd wait a couple years 'til they got any bugs worked out, plus I can't see ponying up for a brand new bike when there will be lightly used ones available a year or two after a new model is intro'd.
BTW, I'm not holding my breath for a new VFR either. If it happens, great. One more bike to drool over while window shopping at local dealers! ;p
[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on May 21 2008, 08:57 AM, said:
I never have been one to need the latest or greatest of anything, in fact I rather enjoy kicking peoples butt in the twisties on the fat pig, under powered VFR or beating 186 hp GSXR 1000's in the A group with my old F4i on the track.
I find that much more satisfying personally. :rolleyes:
I've always thought it's more fun to go faster on a slow "thing" (car/bike/bicycle/etc), than slow on a fast thing.
[image: View Post]TimC, on May 21 2008, 12:16 PM, said:
Losing weight from my bulk would do a lot more good than shaving off a pound or two here and there from the bike.
I can second this......last year in August when I got my bike, I weighed 248 lbs. By around the beggining/mid of november when I put it up for winter, I was about 235 lbs. But when I pulled it out of the garage in march, I was down to 190 lbs and now I'm 185 lbs. I'll tell you what, it felt like a completely new bike. I think the weight loss made my riding 100% more enjoyable, along with helping me ride better and with more confidence. I think a lot of people look over this fairly simple way of improving the bikes feel, not to mention the benifits to themselves as well.
So then, what's the best mod for losing weight from the rider?
Gastrol Intestinal bypass with a cat-less SS tubing?
Carbon Fibre mouthpiece with a smaller diameter intake valve?
Super un-cholesteral fuel source with high fibre octane?
PCM IV (Physical Compliance Movement) with Coyze's preferred diet mapping?
Rear Driven Jams?
[image: View Post]Higgin, on May 21 2008, 11:58 AM, said:
[image: View Post]TimC, on May 21 2008, 12:16 PM, said:
Losing weight from my bulk would do a lot more good than shaving off a pound or two here and there from the bike.
I can second this......last year in August when I got my bike, I weighed 248 lbs. By around the beggining/mid of november when I put it up for winter, I was about 235 lbs. But when I pulled it out of the garage in march, I was down to 190 lbs and now I'm 185 lbs. I'll tell you what, it felt like a completely new bike. I think the weight loss made my riding 100% more enjoyable, along with helping me ride better and with more confidence. I think a lot of people look over this fairly simple way of improving the bikes feel, not to mention the benifits to themselves as well.
That's awesome! Congrats!!! :fing02:
You almost picked up the equivalent of 10 HP that way! :wheel: