So I can't leave well enough alone. I sold my PC3 in hopes of reaching fuel injection nirvana, and I think I've reached it. Why, well you gain one more throttle table (15%), separate maps for every gear (more on this later), and Autotune.
I had checked the Dynojet site and downloaded the maps and software for the '09 PCV. There are 3 maps for the PCV. These are the same 3 maps they have for the '06-'08 PCIII. When you open the PCV maps they are the exact same as the PCIII maps, number for number. The only difference is the addition of the 15% table.
I found the PCV at More Power Racing for $279 to my door. Motorcycle Superstore had the Autotune for $199 to my door. I got Motorcycle Superstore to match More Power Racing, and I ordered the whole thing from them. More Power Racing is in Washington state and I would have had to pay sales tax. Note: The PCV comes with the O2 eliminators, so in most cases, the PCV will actually cost you less then the PCIII, unless you do the homemade eliminators.
I opened both PCIII program, with my current map, and PCV program. I copy and pasted 0%-10% then 20%-100% from my old file to a PCV file. I then made the 15% the difference between 10% and 20%. When I received the goods I installed just the PCV alone and installed my old, new map, and went for a ride. The bike runs just as before, proving the app works. So now for the Autotune.
The Autotune went right in, piece of cake. When the install is done you must calibrate the TPS, speed, gear, and temp. I took this time to do a little investigating. When I was calibrating the speed and gear, I did a run just to check the air fuel ratio in all gears and I can tell you that what gear you are in, affects mixture. Makes you wonder what they do when you take it to a dyno and they do a pull in just one gear? I'm not sure if the gear thing is the same for '02-'05, but the PCV will work just fine on them given the same physical PCIII works on '02-'08.
Anyway, I made some slight changes to the AFR targets in 5th and 6th gear to help mileage in the cruise area, other then that I went with the pre-made AFR targets that are in all three of the maps they have on line.
So, how does it run-- Outstanding! I very happy, well worth the money (sold the old PCIII to help offset the cost). 5 star Mod. I'll report the gas mileage after I get back from my trip to North Dakota (family), leaving Tuesday.
Howdy CR; Glad your new electronics worked out for you,makes it all worth it ,that is spending the money and getting a nice improvement . Just be careful about leaning out the bike in the higher gears. Your engine is under the most load
when its in its higher gears,especially when its in the upper RPM ranges. Any self respecting drag race car will have a system,and they vary widely, that will richen up the fuel mixture or retard the ignition timing when it goes into top gear. Retarding ign. timing is another way of reducing the load on an engine . Even though I am not familiar with the PCV,I do have a PC3 on my bike and am pretty familiar with it. I dont want to see anyone scattering their
engines,so hopefully ,I can lend my experiences to you guys .
[image: View Post]onedowneaster, on Jun 14 2009, 06:22 AM, said:
Howdy CR; Glad your new electronics worked out for you,makes it all worth it ,that is spending the money and getting a nice improvement . Just be careful about leaning out the bike in the higher gears. Your engine is under the most load
when its in its higher gears,especially when its in the upper RPM ranges. Any self respecting drag race car will have a system,and they vary widely, that will richen up the fuel mixture or retard the ignition timing when it goes into top gear. Retarding ign. timing is another way of reducing the load on an engine . Even though I am not familiar with the PCV,I do have a PC3 on my bike and am pretty familiar with it. I dont want to see anyone scattering their
engines,so hopefully ,I can lend my experiences to you guys .
That's one whats great things about separate maps (and target AFRs) for each gear. I forgot to mention that on top of leaning out the cruise area a little (13.9), I also richen it up a little at 100% throttle as compared to the other gears. I'm thinking I'll be able to lean out the cruise into the 14's considering that the factory is going with 14.6 when it goes into closed loop steady cruise. I don't think I'll ever try and limbo that low, I think rideablity suffers at that point. By the way, the target Dynojet uses for cruise area on 6th gen is 13.7.
[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Jun 14 2009, 01:26 PM, said:
So what does autotune do?
In a Power Commander you set up a table where you add or subtract a percentage of fuel from the stock setup at a given RPM and throttle position with the hopes of hitting a certain AFR. With the Autotune you are able to create a table of AFR ratios, again base on RPM, throttle position, and (in the case of the Power Commander 5) gear. You start with a table like you used to used in the old Power Commander, percentage of change. The Autotune uses a wideband O2 sensor to measure the AFR and alter the mixture to match the AFR table, realtime. The Power Commander saves the difference between the percentage table and what it takes to hit the AFR for a given throttle, RPM, and gear combo, this is called the trim table. When you get home, you can check the trims and if you like them you can update your percentage table to include them. The bike always runs on the correct AFR, updating the table with the trims just helps create a more correct start points and allows you to keep track of changes.
[image: View Post]coderighter, on Jun 14 2009, 02:04 PM, said:
In a Power Commander you set up a table where you add or subtract a percentage of fuel from the stock setup at a given RPM and throttle position with the hopes of hitting a certain AFR. With the Autotune you are able to create a table of AFR ratios, again base on RPM, throttle position, and (in the case of the Power Commander 5) gear. You start with a table like you used to used in the old Power Commander, percentage of change. The Autotune uses a wideband O2 sensor to measure the AFR and alter the mixture to match the AFR table, realtime. The Power Commander saves the difference between the percentage table and what it takes to hit the AFR for a given throttle, RPM, and gear combo, this is called the trim table. When you get home, you can check the trims and if you like them you can update your percentage table to include them. The bike always runs on the correct AFR, updating the table with the trims just helps create a more correct start points and allows you to keep track of changes.
So why even use a map? Why not let the autotune hit the correct AFR without a baseline map at all, if it just varies from it anyway?
[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Jun 14 2009, 03:04 PM, said:
[image: View Post]coderighter, on Jun 14 2009, 02:04 PM, said:
In a Power Commander you set up a table where you add or subtract a percentage of fuel from the stock setup at a given RPM and throttle position with the hopes of hitting a certain AFR. With the Autotune you are able to create a table of AFR ratios, again base on RPM, throttle position, and (in the case of the Power Commander 5) gear. You start with a table like you used to used in the old Power Commander, percentage of change. The Autotune uses a wideband O2 sensor to measure the AFR and alter the mixture to match the AFR table, realtime. The Power Commander saves the difference between the percentage table and what it takes to hit the AFR for a given throttle, RPM, and gear combo, this is called the trim table. When you get home, you can check the trims and if you like them you can update your percentage table to include them. The bike always runs on the correct AFR, updating the table with the trims just helps create a more correct start points and allows you to keep track of changes.
So why even use a map? Why not let the autotune hit the correct AFR without a baseline map at all, if it just varies from it anyway?
that's what I'm wondering the auto tune(wideband) should "auto tune" it everytime you ride. you should have no need for maps. It should tune on the fly to keep everything at the proper AFR no matter what mods you've done or how your riding it.
[image: View Post]Buttonhook, on Jun 14 2009, 02:13 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Jun 14 2009, 03:04 PM, said:
[image: View Post]coderighter, on Jun 14 2009, 02:04 PM, said:
In a Power Commander you set up a table where you add or subtract a percentage of fuel from the stock setup at a given RPM and throttle position with the hopes of hitting a certain AFR. With the Autotune you are able to create a table of AFR ratios, again base on RPM, throttle position, and (in the case of the Power Commander 5) gear. You start with a table like you used to used in the old Power Commander, percentage of change. The Autotune uses a wideband O2 sensor to measure the AFR and alter the mixture to match the AFR table, realtime. The Power Commander saves the difference between the percentage table and what it takes to hit the AFR for a given throttle, RPM, and gear combo, this is called the trim table. When you get home, you can check the trims and if you like them you can update your percentage table to include them. The bike always runs on the correct AFR, updating the table with the trims just helps create a more correct start points and allows you to keep track of changes.
So why even use a map? Why not let the autotune hit the correct AFR without a baseline map at all, if it just varies from it anyway?
that's what I'm wondering the auto tune(wideband) should "auto tune" it everytime you ride. you should have no need for maps. It should tune on the fly to keep everything at the proper AFR no matter what mods you've done or how your riding it.
Or so I thought???
I think the idea behind a map is to get you close/ballpark so that it doesn't take as long to figure everything out. I would think it could build a map on it's own, just take much longer. You would still have to tell it what A/F ratio your after. :biggrin:
[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on Jun 14 2009, 03:24 PM, said:
I think the idea behind a map is to get you close/ballpark so that it doesn't take as long to figure everything out. I would think it could build a map on it's own, just take much longer. You would still have to tell it what A/F ratio your after. :biggrin:
But a map isn't an A/F ratio, it's a percentage change from stock. It would make more sense that you tell it the correct A/F Ratio that you want (at a given RPM and throttle position) and it uses the wideband O2 sensor to hit this. Hmmm...
I think the idea behind a map is to get you close/ballpark so that it doesn't take as long to figure everything out. I would think it could build a map on it's own, just take much longer. You would still have to tell it what A/F ratio your after. :biggrin:
But a map isn't an A/F ratio, it's a percentage change from stock. It would make more sense that you tell it the correct A/F Ratio that you want (at a given RPM and throttle position) and it uses the wideband O2 sensor to hit this. Hmmm...
A maps ONLY purpose is all about achieving the desired A/F ratio, that is what it's all about and the root of any Map IMO! The Wide Band 02 just allows live/real time monitoring of the A/F ratio, this(A/F) is what the dyno tuners use to adjust your map when custom building a map for your bike! :cool: And why they will be obsolete with the PCV. :huh: There's HP a/f ratio's(13.2-13.8 to 1), there's efficiency a/f ratio's(14.6 to 1) and there's Kaboom a/f ratio's, that is what adding or subtracting fuel maps are all about. Nothing better than Active Wide Band 02 readings for precise tuning, A/F ratio's are what you are tuning for! + or - fueling means zip w/o hitting a targeted A/F ratio. :ph34r:
btw "It would make more sense that you tell it the correct A/F Ratio that you want (at a given RPM and throttle position) and it uses the wideband O2 sensor to hit this." this is exactly what you are telling the PCV to do, hit targeted A/F ratio's at whatever rpm & tp setting you want. Having a base/ballpark map just allows it to happen much sooner instead of building one from zero. Your really talking about the same thing, just achieving it quicker with a base map installed. Also it probably takes a much less complicated and smaller program to just correct from a ballpark map vs having to build the entire thing! http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/wink.gif
So why not just have the thing preprogramed to say (this is just a number) 14:1 AFR. and then the wide band would automatically adjust the AFR no matter what mods you did. Wouldn't that be the best? Then you wouldn't have any lean or rich spots in the rpm range. So in thoery it would always be the "perfect map"
Or just have two button on the unit 1 for +, 1 for -. Then you can set you own AFR just by hitting the button up or down. if this was the case you would not need a map at all the PCV would just come preloaded with the Ideal AFR that you could ajust and the WB would measure the AFR and keep it there.
So why not just have the thing preprogramed to say (this is just a number) 14:1 AFR. and then the wide band would automatically adjust the AFR no matter what mods you did. Wouldn't that be the best? Then you wouldn't have any lean or rich spots in the rpm range. So in thoery it would always be the "perfect map"
That is exactly what you are doing with a PCV! :biggrin:
So why not just have the thing preprogramed to say (this is just a number) 14:1 AFR. and then the wide band would automatically adjust the AFR no matter what mods you did. Wouldn't that be the best? Then you wouldn't have any lean or rich spots in the rpm range. So in thoery it would always be the "perfect map"
That is exactly what you are doing with a PCV! :ph34r:
Well I hoped it was... I guess I got confused with all of the different map talk. :biggrin: now the real question is exactly what years will it work on (I know 09's)
In a Power Commander you set up a table where you add or subtract a percentage of fuel from the stock setup at a given RPM and throttle position with the hopes of hitting a certain AFR. With the Autotune you are able to create a table of AFR ratios, again base on RPM, throttle position, and (in the case of the Power Commander 5) gear. You start with a table like you used to used in the old Power Commander, percentage of change. The Autotune uses a wideband O2 sensor to measure the AFR and alter the mixture to match the AFR table, realtime. The Power Commander saves the difference between the percentage table and what it takes to hit the AFR for a given throttle, RPM, and gear combo, this is called the trim table. When you get home, you can check the trims and if you like them you can update your percentage table to include them. The bike always runs on the correct AFR, updating the table with the trims just helps create a more correct start points and allows you to keep track of changes.
So why even use a map? Why not let the autotune hit the correct AFR without a baseline map at all, if it just varies from it anyway?
that's what I'm wondering the auto tune(wideband) should "auto tune" it everytime you ride. you should have no need for maps. It should tune on the fly to keep everything at the proper AFR no matter what mods you've done or how your riding it.
Or so I thought???
On top of the getting close, then fine tuning (as Bailyrock pointed out), keep in mind that a O2 sensor needs to be hot to work so you need the map to run until you get up to temp. The PCV has a set up for temp and/or time before you start taking the info from the O2 sensor.
Do you leave the wide band O2 sensor installed permanently? Or does it have a limited life perhaps? Ie. after you get all your maps dialled in, are you supposed to remove it and put back the OEM sensor?
Coderighter,
Power Commander and More Power only list a PC3 for 02-06 VFRs.Did you have some inside info from them or took a chance that a PC5 would work on your 06?
Do you leave the wide band O2 sensor installed permanently? Or does it have a limited life perhaps? Ie. after you get all your maps dialled in, are you supposed to remove it and put back the OEM sensor?
The O2 sensor is a "common" Bosch unit used in automotive apps has a rated life of 100,000 miles. There's no reason to put the factory units back in.
Coderighter, Power Commander and More Power only list a PC3 for 02-06 VFRs.Did you have some inside info from them or took a chance that a PC5 would work on your 06?
You're right, Dynojet doesn't make or support the PCV for any bike built before '09. We know that the VFR hasn't been changed since '02. We know there are 2 model numbers of PCIII listed for 6th gen one for '02-'05 (#111-411) and one for '06 to '08 (#126-411). Those parts number are the same hardware, the only difference is the preloaded map. The "411" is the hardware and the or 3 digit number is the "stock" map for that model. I ran a '02-'05 unit on my '06 for a year with no problem. If you look, most Honda's use the same hardware, just different maps, example, the '06 CBR600 is #117-411. Guess what? If someone is having a sell on '06 CBR600 PCIII you can get it change the map, and you're good to go.
Sorry back to your question the bike, other than color, hasn't changed from '08 to '09. Like I said before the maps for the '06-'08 PCIII are the exact same as the '09 maps for the PCV. The only difference is the addition of a 15% throttle settings that the PCIII doesn't have. Why they decided not to back support years of current bike models I don't know for sure. Maybe the parts for the PCIII are cheaper (older technology) and there's a bigger profit margin? Perhaps they have a large stock of PCIII parts they need gone? I don't know. If you want one just order one for a '09, it will work just fine.
Also, as a side note, there are 2 models of Autotune. AT-100 for the Harley folks and AT-200 for everybody else. On the Harley's, they do each cylinder separate, so the kit includes to complete units for $349. The other kit, with a single unit, is $199. So if you and a friend get together, you each save $25. The Autotune has no brains, it really a repackaged Wideband 2 unit. It only supplies the info to the PCV.
Do you leave the wide band O2 sensor installed permanently? Or does it have a limited life perhaps? Ie. after you get all your maps dialled in, are you supposed to remove it and put back the OEM sensor?
You have to leave the Wide Band 02 installed if you want it to continually tune to ideal settings! If you went to the bottom of the Grand Canyon then to the top of Pikes Peak the Autotune would continue to try and attain the ideal a/f ratio you desire no matter what elevation, humidity or temp you might experience. :biggrin:
You're right, Dynojet doesn't make or support the PCV for any bike built before '09. We know that the VFR hasn't been changed since '02. We know there are 2 model numbers of PCIII listed for 6th gen one for '02-'05 (#111-411) and one for '06 to '08 (#126-411). Those parts number are the same hardware, the only difference is the preloaded map. The "411" is the hardware and the or 3 digit number is the "stock" map for that model. I ran a '02-'05 unit on my '06 for a year with no problem. If you look, most Honda's use the same hardware, just different maps, example, the '06 CBR600 is #117-411. Guess what? If someone is having a sell on '06 CBR600 PCIII you can get it change the map, and you're good to go.
Sorry back to your question, the bike other than color, has changed for '08 to '09. Like I said before the maps for the '06-'08 PCIII are the exact same as the '09 maps for the PCV. The only difference is the addition of a 15% throttle settings that the PCIII doesn't have. Why they decided not to back support years of current bike models I don't know for sure. Maybe the parts for the PCIII are cheaper (older technology) and there's a bigger profit margin? Perhaps they have a large stock of PCIII parts they need gone? I don't know. If you want one just order one for a '09, it will work just fine.
Also, as a side note, there are 2 models of Autotune. AT-100 for the Harley folks and AT-200 for everybody else. On the Harley's, they do each cylinder separate, so the kit includes to complete units for $349. The other kit, with a single unit, is $199. So if you and a friend get together, you each save $25. The Autotune has no brains, it really a repackaged Wideband 2 unit. It only supplies the info to the PCV.
MVP :biggrin:
Quick question though... I was eying a gear indicator tonight, and noticed it only says it's compatible with 06-09. It reads off the ecu supposedly, and I know they did change (tweak) that in 06. Is there any ACTUAL difference, or reason it wouldn't work on an 02? I'm assuming it reads the gear in the same way the PCV would.
You're right, Dynojet doesn't make or support the PCV for any bike built before '09. We know that the VFR hasn't been changed since '02. We know there are 2 model numbers of PCIII listed for 6th gen one for '02-'05 (#111-411) and one for '06 to '08 (#126-411). Those parts number are the same hardware, the only difference is the preloaded map. The "411" is the hardware and the or 3 digit number is the "stock" map for that model. I ran a '02-'05 unit on my '06 for a year with no problem. If you look, most Honda's use the same hardware, just different maps, example, the '06 CBR600 is #117-411. Guess what? If someone is having a sell on '06 CBR600 PCIII you can get it change the map, and you're good to go.
Sorry back to your question, the bike other than color, has changed for '08 to '09. Like I said before the maps for the '06-'08 PCIII are the exact same as the '09 maps for the PCV. The only difference is the addition of a 15% throttle settings that the PCIII doesn't have. Why they decided not to back support years of current bike models I don't know for sure. Maybe the parts for the PCIII are cheaper (older technology) and there's a bigger profit margin? Perhaps they have a large stock of PCIII parts they need gone? I don't know. If you want one just order one for a '09, it will work just fine.
Also, as a side note, there are 2 models of Autotune. AT-100 for the Harley folks and AT-200 for everybody else. On the Harley's, they do each cylinder separate, so the kit includes to complete units for $349. The other kit, with a single unit, is $199. So if you and a friend get together, you each save $25. The Autotune has no brains, it really a repackaged Wideband 2 unit. It only supplies the info to the PCV.
MVP :biggrin:
Quick question though... I was eying a gear indicator tonight, and noticed it only says it's compatible with 06-09. It reads off the ecu supposedly, and I know they did change (tweak) that in 06. Is there any ACTUAL difference, or reason it wouldn't work on an 02? I'm assuming it reads the gear in the same way the PCV would.
OO... OO.... I know this one!!
The gear indicator works by comparing the engine RPM to bike speed (output shaft speed). One of the things changed in '06 was some of the wiring (thank God). They changed several connectors it would seem that the places that they got the RPM or shaft speed had changed. The only connection that matters to Power Commanders is the throttle body connector which contains injectors and TPS. Here's a surprise, Honda uses the same one on almost every bike.
You can make it work, it just won't be plug and play. If you're OK with soldering, I can tell you what to do to make it work. Let me know.
(God, I need to call and get my OCD meds increased)
Would it be better to have the PAIR system working or not with Autotune? I would imagine it would be better without it. Sound great, I want one!
Yes, sorry forgot to mention that the PAIR must be by passed or the oxygen introduced will mess up your readings. It's mentioned in the manual. How many dyno shops do you think actually do this!?
I should also mention that there is not such thing as realtime mixture control with a O2 sensor. When you check the exhaust with a O2 sensor, it's post mortem, the mixture has already been made and fired. The information is only good for next time, thus another reason you must still have a map. The map is just adjusted (tuned) to be correct the next time around.
Thanks. Does the wideband oxygen sensor replace one of the OEM oxygen sensors?
Yes.
They don't give you alot of extra wire, so I used the one closest to the outside and capped off the other one. The PCV comes with the eliminators to cap off the stock wire connectors and fool the ECU into thinking all is well.
Wasn't there a lower RPM limit to where the Power Commander would not function? I seem to remember mention of the unit not being effective below 4,500 RPM or some such number. Does this newest unit act the same way?
Wasn't there a lower RPM limit to where the Power Commander would not function? I seem to remember mention of the unit not being effective below 4,500 RPM or some such number. Does this newest unit act the same way?
No, every PC I've looked at(III-up) lets you control settings from idle to redline at 250 rpm increments and from zero to 100% throttle openings in 10% increments, sounds like the PCV adds a 15% throttle setting in addition. :laugh:
[image: View Post]coderighter, on Jun 14 2009, 09:15 PM, said:
[image: View Post]mznyc, on Jun 14 2009, 08:53 PM, said:
Coderighter,
Power Commander and More Power only list a PC3 for 02-06 VFRs.Did you have some inside info from them or took a chance that a PC5 would work on your 06?
You're right, Dynojet doesn't make or support the PCV for any bike built before '09. We know that the VFR hasn't been changed since '02. We know there are 2 model numbers of PCIII listed for 6th gen one for '02-'05 (#111-411) and one for '06 to '08 (#126-411). Those parts number are the same hardware, the only difference is the preloaded map. The "411" is the hardware and the or 3 digit number is the "stock" map for that model. I ran a '02-'05 unit on my '06 for a year with no problem. If you look, most Honda's use the same hardware, just different maps, example, the '06 CBR600 is #117-411. Guess what? If someone is having a sell on '06 CBR600 PCIII you can get it change the map, and you're good to go.
Has anyone actually installed a non specific vfr power commander ***-411 and does it actually work?
[image: View Post]panamawing, on Sep 25 2009, 12:51 PM, said:
[image: View Post]coderighter, on Jun 14 2009, 09:15 PM, said:
[image: View Post]mznyc, on Jun 14 2009, 08:53 PM, said:
Coderighter,
Power Commander and More Power only list a PC3 for 02-06 VFRs.Did you have some inside info from them or took a chance that a PC5 would work on your 06?
You're right, Dynojet doesn't make or support the PCV for any bike built before '09. We know that the VFR hasn't been changed since '02. We know there are 2 model numbers of PCIII listed for 6th gen one for '02-'05 (#111-411) and one for '06 to '08 (#126-411). Those parts number are the same hardware, the only difference is the preloaded map. The "411" is the hardware and the or 3 digit number is the "stock" map for that model. I ran a '02-'05 unit on my '06 for a year with no problem. If you look, most Honda's use the same hardware, just different maps, example, the '06 CBR600 is #117-411. Guess what? If someone is having a sell on '06 CBR600 PCIII you can get it change the map, and you're good to go.
Has anyone actually installed a non specific vfr power commander ***-411 and does it actually work?
I think what was found is that non-VFR PC's might have different plugs on them and won't work. If they did have the same plugs than yes they should work no matter what their off of.
Any PC for a 2002-2009 will work on any 6th gen VFR with the proper map installed! :fing02:
[image: View Post]panamawing, on Sep 25 2009, 01:51 PM, said:
[image: View Post]coderighter, on Jun 14 2009, 09:15 PM, said:
[image: View Post]mznyc, on Jun 14 2009, 08:53 PM, said:
Coderighter,
Power Commander and More Power only list a PC3 for 02-06 VFRs.Did you have some inside info from them or took a chance that a PC5 would work on your 06?
You're right, Dynojet doesn't make or support the PCV for any bike built before '09. We know that the VFR hasn't been changed since '02. We know there are 2 model numbers of PCIII listed for 6th gen one for '02-'05 (#111-411) and one for '06 to '08 (#126-411). Those parts number are the same hardware, the only difference is the preloaded map. The "411" is the hardware and the or 3 digit number is the "stock" map for that model. I ran a '02-'05 unit on my '06 for a year with no problem. If you look, most Honda's use the same hardware, just different maps, example, the '06 CBR600 is #117-411. Guess what? If someone is having a sell on '06 CBR600 PCIII you can get it change the map, and you're good to go.
Has anyone actually installed a non specific vfr power commander ***-411 and does it actually work?
No, it does not always work. The info I got from a Dynojet tech rep was bad. I edited my post to remove that statement but it is still in qouted replies that I can not edit.
[image: View Post]coderighter, on Sep 25 2009, 01:32 PM, said:
[image: View Post]panamawing, on Sep 25 2009, 01:51 PM, said:
[image: View Post]coderighter, on Jun 14 2009, 09:15 PM, said:
[image: View Post]mznyc, on Jun 14 2009, 08:53 PM, said:
Coderighter,
Power Commander and More Power only list a PC3 for 02-06 VFRs.Did you have some inside info from them or took a chance that a PC5 would work on your 06?
You're right, Dynojet doesn't make or support the PCV for any bike built before '09. We know that the VFR hasn't been changed since '02. We know there are 2 model numbers of PCIII listed for 6th gen one for '02-'05 (#111-411) and one for '06 to '08 (#126-411). Those parts number are the same hardware, the only difference is the preloaded map. The "411" is the hardware and the or 3 digit number is the "stock" map for that model. I ran a '02-'05 unit on my '06 for a year with no problem. If you look, most Honda's use the same hardware, just different maps, example, the '06 CBR600 is #117-411. Guess what? If someone is having a sell on '06 CBR600 PCIII you can get it change the map, and you're good to go.
Has anyone actually installed a non specific vfr power commander ***-411 and does it actually work?
No, it does not always work. The info I got from a Dynojet tech rep was bad. I edited my post to remove that statement but it is still in qouted replies that I can not edit.
Sorry.
Thanks for the quick response!
I believe this clears my mind up on this subject......and the Dynojet rep I talked to verified a power commander specified for a VFR was needed.
Thanks again!
[image: View Post]kostritzer, on Jul 23 2009, 01:54 AM, said:
Do any of the PC's give you the ability to control the ignition timing on a VFR?
There are a few other posts on this as well, but only the old PCII's allow you to adjust ignition timing. They intercept the signal before the it gets to the ECU, and so it can tell the computer that the timing is mentally challenged, and the computer will advance it. PCIII and PCV's intercept the signal coming from the ECU to the fuel injectors control module (or something like that).
A few users have done this, none have reported huge power gains, but as far as I know, no one has dyno'ed before and after to find out. Also, you'd need to use higher octane gas. This is another mod that would only help when WOT in the upper RPM range.
[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Sep 25 2009, 03:03 PM, said:
[image: View Post]kostritzer, on Jul 23 2009, 01:54 AM, said:
Do any of the PC's give you the ability to control the ignition timing on a VFR?
There are a few other posts on this as well, but only the old PCII's allow you to adjust ignition timing. They intercept the signal before the it gets to the ECU, and so it can tell the computer that the timing is mentally challenged, and the computer will advance it. PCIII and PCV's intercept the signal coming from the ECU to the fuel injectors control module (or something like that).
A few users have done this, none have reported huge power gains, but as far as I know, no one has dyno'ed before and after to find out. Also, you'd need to use higher octane gas. This is another mod that would only help when WOT in the upper RPM range.
There were also PCIIIr's that also controlled ignition timing along with the fuel map! :biggrin:
I'm emailing with Dynojet right now to get more information about PC Vs and older VFRs.
I have another question for coderighter. Since the PC V supports different maps for each gear, and your post says "separate maps for every gear (more on this later)", are you actually using this feature? The VFR does not have a gear position sensor so I'm wondering how this could be used.
[image: View Post]Bartmaneh, on Oct 5 2009, 03:03 PM, said:
I'm still confused... will the PC V for the 2009 VFR work on the 2006 model out-of-the-box? i.e. has the right harness connectors etc.?
Yes, plugs right in. If you want to do map by gear you need to tap into the vehicle speed sensor wire. I you use a Autotune with it and want to have it not sample until you reach operating temp, you'll need to tap into the temp sensor.
Dynojet has decided not to support the PCV on any bike built before '09 regardless of make or model. My guess is they didn't want to do any reverse engineering. It also leaves a larger market for the PCIII, which I'm guessing at this point, has a larger profit margin.....or something.
[image: View Post]Bartmaneh, on Oct 5 2009, 03:43 PM, said:
I'm emailing with Dynojet right now to get more information about PC Vs and older VFRs.
I have another question for coderighter. Since the PC V supports different maps for each gear, and your post says "separate maps for every gear (more on this later)", are you actually using this feature? The VFR does not have a gear position sensor so I'm wondering how this could be used.
Yes, I'm using it. I believe its the best feature of the PCV. There is no gear position sensor input on the PCV, it compares a feed from the vehicle speed sensor to the engine RPM to find what gear you are in. Works great. You can set up a fuel efficient 5th-6th gear cruise while still having a smooth as butter 1st, 2nd and 3rd. I can also sneak through the neighborhood in 3rd gear @ 3200-3400 rpm without all the drama, no surge, no snatch.
[image: View Post]coderighter, on 05 October 2009 - 03:11 PM, said:
You can set up a fuel efficient 5th-6th gear cruise while still having a smooth as butter 1st, 2nd and 3rd. I can also sneak through the neighborhood in 3rd gear @ 3200-3400 rpm without all the drama, no surge, no snatch.
Hell yes! That's what I'm talking about http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/smile.gif ^^^^^
So - silly question, may have already been answered, can you use a PCIII map on the PCV? IE - the Coyze map???
[image: View Post]myke_w, on 30 October 2009 - 01:33 PM, said:
[image: View Post]coderighter, on 05 October 2009 - 03:11 PM, said:
You can set up a fuel efficient 5th-6th gear cruise while still having a smooth as butter 1st, 2nd and 3rd. I can also sneak through the neighborhood in 3rd gear @ 3200-3400 rpm without all the drama, no surge, no snatch.
Hell yes! That's what I'm talking about http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/smile.gif ^^^^^
So - silly question, may have already been answered, can you use a PCIII map on the PCV? IE - the Coyze map???
Yes and no. No you can't directly load it but you can copy and paste the tables from the PCIII file to a PCV file. You have to then average 10% throttle and 20% throttle to fill in the 15% throttle, since the PCIII doesn't have the 15% column. Load it and go.
I have an '06 VFR. I got a PCV and the autotune module. I took it to the dealer where I bought the bike. They said that they could install it for me. I gave them everything that came with the PC including the disc. I assumed after our conversation that this meant that I would get the bike back ready to go. Not so. They gave me the bike back and said "ok, now you just have to install the map. Also, you'll have to move the exhaust sensor back and forth between the 2 pipes to calibrate your map since it only came with one sensor." This makes me think that they actually had no idea what they were doing. Does the sensor have to be moved, or did they just not know how to install it?
I just called a guy at a local shop and he said that I should bring it in to have a map made. He said it will be $260 to get a map for it. He then said that I wouldn't need to use the Autotune module. At this point I am confused. Didn't I buy the Autotune so that I wouldn't have to spend $260 on the Dyno to get the right map. Isn't the point of the Autotune to do the map for me and then keep it tuned on the fly? Why would I want to disconnect it after I got it working initially?
[image: View Post]1337sauce, on 03 March 2010 - 03:34 PM, said:
Does the sensor have to be moved, or did they just not know how to install it?
I just called a guy at a local shop and he said that I should bring it in to have a map made. He said it will be $260 to get a map for it. He then said that I wouldn't need to use the Autotune module. At this point I am confused. Didn't I buy the Autotune so that I wouldn't have to spend $260 on the Dyno to get the right map. Isn't the point of the Autotune to do the map for me and then keep it tuned on the fly? Why would I want to disconnect it after I got it working initially?
Just PM coderighter, he's the man.
Avoid your local shop as he's an idiot! :angry: The whole point of autotune is to eliminate the need for a custom map made by a Dyno guy. Makes the dyno guy an un-needed part of the equation.
Yes there is two 02 spuds and only one sensor, but I'm not sure what you need to do here.
Again PM coderighter. :laugh:
PS I think there is a download of the maps coderighter made for his 06 around here somewhere. :fing02:
Good Luck
I have just brought one of these but was wondering............. I have gone down one tooth on the front sprocket, will this effect the pc v's gear ratio?
Also you mentioned at the start that there was a calibration that has to be done, right?
One more add. Ordered and installed a PCIII on an '06 this week - although Coderighter suggested PCV to me a few weeks ago. Local Speedshop advised against the PCV but my research supported Coderighter. Bottom line is that the III still made a very significant improvement, and did come with O2 sensors for CA and overseas models. I'm probably less performance oriented (age?) but I am pleased, even given the loss of the Autotune option. The III has eliminated the "snatch and grab" stock characterstics and made interstate commuting 'mo bettah". Kudos to the V experiment and happy that it worked.
[image: View Post]coderighter, on 05 October 2009 - 03:11 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Bartmaneh, on Oct 5 2009, 03:43 PM, said:
I'm emailing with Dynojet right now to get more information about PC Vs and older VFRs.
I have another question for coderighter. Since the PC V supports different maps for each gear, and your post says "separate maps for every gear (more on this later)", are you actually using this feature? The VFR does not have a gear position sensor so I'm wondering how this could be used.
Yes, I'm using it. I believe its the best feature of the PCV. There is no gear position sensor input on the PCV, it compares a feed from the vehicle speed sensor to the engine RPM to find what gear you are in. Works great. You can set up a fuel efficient 5th-6th gear cruise while still having a smooth as butter 1st, 2nd and 3rd. I can also sneak through the neighborhood in 3rd gear @ 3200-3400 rpm without all the drama, no surge, no snatch.
So does this mean you can use the PCV with the GIProDS gear position indicator? I already have the GIProDS and would hate to give that up to get the PCV. THE GIProDS plugs into that red plug on the right side of the bike just under the plastic under the throttle. Does the PCV plug in there too?
[image: View Post]SereniTTy, on 30 July 2010 - 10:33 AM, said:
[image: View Post]coderighter, on 05 October 2009 - 03:11 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Bartmaneh, on Oct 5 2009, 03:43 PM, said:
I'm emailing with Dynojet right now to get more information about PC Vs and older VFRs.
I have another question for coderighter. Since the PC V supports different maps for each gear, and your post says "separate maps for every gear (more on this later)", are you actually using this feature? The VFR does not have a gear position sensor so I'm wondering how this could be used.
Yes, I'm using it. I believe its the best feature of the PCV. There is no gear position sensor input on the PCV, it compares a feed from the vehicle speed sensor to the engine RPM to find what gear you are in. Works great. You can set up a fuel efficient 5th-6th gear cruise while still having a smooth as butter 1st, 2nd and 3rd. I can also sneak through the neighborhood in 3rd gear @ 3200-3400 rpm without all the drama, no surge, no snatch.
So does this mean you can use the PCV with the GIProDS gear position indicator? I already have the GIProDS and would hate to give that up to get the PCV. THE GIProDS plugs into that red plug on the right side of the bike just under the plastic under the throttle. Does the PCV plug in there too?
Thanks...
Not a problem. I'm running a Speedhealer now. There actually are no plugs on the PCV, you need to splice into the VSS wire to get the speed signal.
[image: View Post]colbryan, on 30 July 2010 - 10:10 AM, said:
One more add. Ordered and installed a PCIII on an '06 this week - although Coderighter suggested PCV to me a few weeks ago. Local Speedshop advised against the PCV but my research supported Coderighter. Bottom line is that the III still made a very significant improvement, and did come with O2 sensors for CA and overseas models. I'm probably less performance oriented (age?) but I am pleased, even given the loss of the Autotune option. The III has eliminated the "snatch and grab" stock characterstics and made interstate commuting 'mo bettah". Kudos to the V experiment and happy that it worked.
Curious, what was the speed shops reason for advising against it?
I have just brought one of these but was wondering............. I have gone down one tooth on the front sprocket, will this effect the pc v's gear ratio?
Also you mentioned at the start that there was a calibration that has to be done, right?
The speed cal is used to calculate what gear you are in. It takes the output shaft speed and compares it to engine RPM. What happens after the output shaft (either sprocket or tire height) has no bearing, you're fine.
I have just brought one of these but was wondering............. I have gone down one tooth on the front sprocket, will this effect the pc v's gear ratio?
Also you mentioned at the start that there was a calibration that has to be done, right?
The speed cal is used to calculate what gear you are in. It takes the output shaft speed and compares it to engine RPM. What happens after the output shaft (either sprocket or tire height) has no bearing, you're fine.
So i guess my sweet 1998 vfr will be left out of the pcv experiment due to the lack of o2 sensors?
No it won't be left out of the experiement. I've installed a PCV on my 98 with great results. I have the Autotune, map by gear, and temp sensors installed and working great. All I did was drill a hole for the Bosch unit and had a bung welded. Works great.
Coderighter - got a few questions! I just purchased the PCV, no autotune, for an 2007 model. I want to try your 'autotuned' map, but I see you have it 'per gear', which is cool.
1) The Power Commander manual says I need to hook up one wire. Is this the correct one:
"Speed Input - PINK wire of 3 pin clear connector located behind L.H fairing : PINK-GREEN-BLACK"
2) I assume there was some calibration involved so that the PCV knows what gear goes with what speed/RPM. Is that information SAVED in the PVM file that you posted? With just the 1 wire hookup and your PVM file, it should automatically switch maps per gear?
Let me know if the 'per gear maps' will switch WITHOUT having autotune connected. Thanks!
Coderighter - got a few questions! I just purchased the PCV, no autotune, for an 2007 model. I want to try your 'autotuned' map, but I see you have it 'per gear', which is cool.
1) The Power Commander manual says I need to hook up one wire. Is this the correct one:
"Speed Input - PINK wire of 3 pin clear connector located behind L.H fairing : PINK-GREEN-BLACK"
2) I assume there was some calibration involved so that the PCV knows what gear goes with what speed/RPM. Is that information SAVED in the PVM file that you posted? With just the 1 wire hookup and your PVM file, it should automatically switch maps per gear?
Let me know if the 'per gear maps' will switch WITHOUT having autotune connected. Thanks!
Derek
1) Yes
2) No, I'll have to cal it on the bike. The PCV has instructions on how to do this.
I was thinking of getting one of the PCV units but thought I would seek some guidance first. If I understand this correctly, without the auto-tune unit, I can use a computer to setup a map, or download a pre-programmed map that would get me in the ball park. I can then tweak the settings as I see fit (within reason of course) and NOT need a shop to do a dyno tune on the bike. I also understand that the PCV also has a "2 map switch" input on it that would allow me to setup a "fuel efficient" cruising map and a "high performance" mode map and I can toggle those with a contact closure. That being said, how easy or difficult is the tuning process? Can I seriously damage the motor if I do something wrong? Would also getting the auto-tune be a wise choice?
My main goal is to setup a daily commuter setting for getting around town and to and from my job sites, then have a performance setting when I want to do some canyon carving, track day, etc. What's the general consensus?
I was thinking of getting one of the PCV units but thought I would seek some guidance first. If I understand this correctly, without the auto-tune unit, I can use a computer to setup a map, or download a pre-programmed map that would get me in the ball park. I can then tweak the settings as I see fit (within reason of course) and NOT need a shop to do a dyno tune on the bike. I also understand that the PCV also has a "2 map switch" input on it that would allow me to setup a "fuel efficient" cruising map and a "high performance" mode map and I can toggle those with a contact closure. That being said, how easy or difficult is the tuning process? Can I seriously damage the motor if I do something wrong? Would also getting the auto-tune be a wise choice?
My main goal is to setup a daily commuter setting for getting around town and to and from my job sites, then have a performance setting when I want to do some canyon carving, track day, etc. What's the general consensus?
You do not need autotune to get in a pretty good ballpark. I am using Coderighters 'autotuned' map, and I am quite happy so far. There are also many maps available here to soften VTEC, cure the lean conditions. I would love autotune, but you'll get close just using the maps. Perhaps close enough.
As I think it would be difficult to tweak a bike without a dyno. There is only so much your butt-o-meter can tell you. Most maps here were done on a dyno or autotuned. I would just use them and save yourself some money.
I understand the two map thing, but how fuel efficient can you make the bike? I haven't even seen a 'fuel efficieny' map available at this point. Doing it yourself is risky because making things too lean will overheat the engine, burn pistons, and burn valves. To make a fuel efficiency map, I would say you need to carefully monitor the AF ratio to prevent destruction.
Coderighter - got a few questions! I just purchased the PCV, no autotune, for an 2007 model. I want to try your 'autotuned' map, but I see you have it 'per gear', which is cool.
1) The Power Commander manual says I need to hook up one wire. Is this the correct one:
"Speed Input - PINK wire of 3 pin clear connector located behind L.H fairing : PINK-GREEN-BLACK"
2) I assume there was some calibration involved so that the PCV knows what gear goes with what speed/RPM. Is that information SAVED in the PVM file that you posted? With just the 1 wire hookup and your PVM file, it should automatically switch maps per gear?
Let me know if the 'per gear maps' will switch WITHOUT having autotune connected. Thanks!
Derek
1) Yes
2) No, I'll have to cal it on the bike. The PCV has instructions on how to do this.
Yes map by gear works with or without Autotune.
Jon
...done a lot of reading through your posts (GPM's, and others) and don't remember seeing the answer... Will the by-gear map (without autotune) work / make a marked difference on an '02?
Yes, map-by-gear well work on any PCV. Whether it makes a difference or not depends on the setup. It seems that '06 and newer are map-by-gear from the factory and would have the most to gain. However, someone with a pre '06 might want to tune gears 1-4 for the smoothest performance, while gears 5-6 could be tuned for the best gas mileage.
I used your mapping on my pc5; works fantastic. Gave it a few tweeks on the 40% + throttle for a bit more "wait, was that a Viffer?!"
I read that you were using a pressure switch to disable the fuel mapping for when you roll off the throttle and was wondering if you have the details posted up anywhere. It sounds like a great idea and I'd be interested in increasing my fuel efficiency a bit further.
I installed the PC5 on my '07 this weekend. I am a mechanically inclined person, but not too fond of dealing with electrical things. This installation was straight forward and simple. I went ahead and tapped into the speed senors wire so that I could take advantage of the map by gear feature of this unit. Uploading coderighter's map to the unit was straightforward.
The wife and I went for a short cruise yesterday to test it out. I spent the first few miles navigating traffic, so I didn't not notice much one way or the other - after a bad experience last year, I tend to focus solely on the traffic when it is heavy. As soon as we got into the open, I immediately noticed how much smoother the bike was running at a constant speed, smooth like butter! Once we got into a the twisties, I could not believe how smooth the bike was while rolling on and off the throttle. I anticipate that I was taking the corners 5 to 10 mph faster than normal because of the smoothness. There was no more jerky behavior when accelerating and decelerating. I found this smoothness to be confidence inspiring! The VTEC transition was still there, but not quite as harsh as it was previously.
I'm not sure if the bike is more powerful with the PC5 installed, primarily because it is so smooth now; I think the power sneaks up on you! Whereas prior to the PC5, I think the jerkiness may have made the bike seem powerful from a seat-of-the-pants perspective. As I stated above, the new-found smoothness is very confidence inspiring! I am extremely happy with this upgrade.
Regarding the power-train, my VFR is currently outfitted as follows:
I used your mapping on my pc5; works fantastic. Gave it a few tweeks on the 40% + throttle for a bit more "wait, was that a Viffer?!"
I read that you were using a pressure switch to disable the fuel mapping for when you roll off the throttle and was wondering if you have the details posted up anywhere. It sounds like a great idea and I'd be interested in increasing my fuel efficiency a bit further.
So I have a 97 750 and bought used..... can anyone tell me about this "ignition advance module?' under the seat, red power wire to black 5 pin, with black box.. the box has 1-6 switches you can turn to "on" position... some sort of programer? only thing on the box are the letters SH... I have pics.. I just dont know how to post them on here....
Just got mine loaded up with the PowerCommander provided '09 map for bikes with LeoVince, O2 sensors removed and aftermarket air filters. It's amazing! Seriously can't believe how smooth the vtec transition is now. I may try running without the O2 sensors disabled since I'd like to retain or even gain some mpg, but wow is it ever smoother at the transition. Feels a little more responsive and smoother throughout the entire range and I noticed it's a lot less snatchy when coming on/off the throttle (I assume this is because of the O2 sensor being removed)
Overall, it completely transforms the bike. Seriously makes it feel so much more well put together. Just need my sliders and LiFePO4 battery installed and I'm done tinkering for the season! I managed to install quite a bit of farkles while maintaining the factory weight (saved 12lbs with the exhaust and 6 with the battery) Added a bit with seats/sliders/PCV/side case brackets
With side cases installed, I'm just a little over factory weight.
So i guess my sweet 1998 vfr will be left out of the pcv experiment due to the lack of o2 sensors?
No it won't be left out of the experiement. I've installed a PCV on my 98 with great results. I have the Autotune, map by gear, and temp sensors installed and working great. All I did was drill a hole for the Bosch unit and had a bung welded. Works great.
I think he is looking for where did he drill and mount the bung for the wideband O2 sensor... I suggest something similar to Mohawks TBR header (see below on left)
I think he is looking for where did he drill and mount the bung for the wideband O2 sensor... I suggest something similar to Mohawks TBR header (see below on left)
isnt it suppose to be more towards the header instead of the exhaust ?
I think he is looking for where did he drill and mount the bung for the wideband O2 sensor... I suggest something similar to Mohawks TBR header (see below on left)
isnt it suppose to be more towards the header instead of the exhaust ?
That is only slightly farther downstream than the factory O2 sensors on the gen 5.5 & 6... that position allows measurement of all the cylinder gases instead of two or one. I understand your point about positioning and there is a "Goldilock's" distance from the cylinder exhaust port to get the most accurate reading; too close and the exhaust gases are too hot and completing combustion, too far and they are starting to cool and have consumed more available oxygen giving an apparent richer mixture than actual... you can adjust your A/F target to compensate for the position of the wide band O2 sensor if needed.
With the vacuum switch install any data on the increase in MPG's ?
I don't think it affects MPG much, if at all. The PCV operates in two modes, learning (using the O2 sensor) or running whatever map + trims are stored. There are connections on the PCV that determine if the PCV is "learning". If there is continuity (switch ON) between these two connections, the PCV is learning. In learning mode, the PCV continually adjusts "trim" values that are then added to (or subtracted from) the base map. When there is no continuity between the two connection (switch OFF), the bike doesn't adjust the trim values; it just uses whatever base + trim happens to be stored at that RPM/Throttle position. The problem with autotune is that if the bike is in overrun, odd values seem to be stored in the trim.
What the vacuum switch does is turn off the "learning" mode during decel, so only adjustments to trim are made when the bike is cruising or acclerating.
With the vacuum switch install any data on the increase in MPG's ?
I don't think it affects MPG much, if at all. The PCV operates in two modes, learning (using the O2 sensor) or running whatever map + trims are stored. There are connections on the PCV that determine if the PCV is "learning". If there is continuity (switch ON) between these two connections, the PCV is learning. In learning mode, the PCV continually adjusts "trim" values that are then added to (or subtracted from) the base map. When there is no continuity between the two connection (switch OFF), the bike doesn't adjust the trim values; it just uses whatever base + trim happens to be stored at that RPM/Throttle position. The problem with autotune is that if the bike is in overrun, odd values seem to be stored in the trim.
What the vacuum switch does is turn off the "learning" mode during decel, so only adjustments to trim are made when the bike is cruising or acclerating.
Thanks for clearing that up . I have PC5 on my 08 .
![[image: $(KGrHqVHJBUFI3hghUVDBSOIdGQZ1!~~60_14.J]](http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTUwMFgxNTAw/z/QVkAAOxy5rpSOIdH/%24(KGrHqVHJBUFI3hghUVDBSOIdGQZ1!~~60_14.JPG){kind=link}