Semi Auto Gearbox

From Motorcycle Daily


A report posted on the MCN web site states an inside source at Honda has revealed that the long-rumored 1200cc V-4 sport tourer expected this fall will feature a dual clutch automatic transmission with both manual and automatic modes selectable by the rider. According to MCN, the "VFR 1200" will be a technological marvel that also features the ability to run on two, three or four cylinders depending on performance/economy needs. If this amazing motorcycle is indeed a 2010 model, we can expect Honda to announce it within the next two months. Stay tuned.


Not happy with this unless the manual mode works PROPERLY.

Saw that posted on MD.

Honestly, it just sounds like more MCN speculative blather. We'll see.

All they had to do , was put that hydraulic valved 999cc GP motor in, beef up the suspension , and this bike would rock

But,
What they've done is added more green technology, and moved the vfr deeper into the touring sector

CLIP (not vfr)
1:10 - 1:30

[image: View Post]YoshiHNS, on Aug 15 2009, 02:47 PM, said:

CLIP (not vfr)
1:10 - 1:30


I'm all FOR high tech. I can live with cylinder disable to save gas, hub centric brakes. even photonic warp drive.

But dammit, my car is a manual transmission, that's what I drive. I like the control. My bike will be too. A computer may shift better than me and do the clutch better than me but for the love of all that's right and holy in the world this is a motorcycle, not an RV.


/off to re-read Song of the Sausage Creature

From what I've read only the "ST1200" version will off this full semi-auto gearbox. But who knows...

It's a crime against nature. :dry:

The Multiple Displace System is something they've been using in SUV's for some time now. The following refers to Chrysler's 5.7L Hemi V8. I got it off Popular Mechanics' web site. One thing for certain is the new Interceptor is definitely becoming more and more of a touring machine.

The whole point of this exercise was primarily to explain and demonstrate the 2005 Hemi's new Multiple Displacement System (MDS) in an enlightening manner more fun than your average Powerpoint presentation. We got to see the four solenoid valves--mounted directly to the engine block down in the valley of the V8--that disable cylinders 4 and 6 (the two inners on one bank) and cylinders 1 and 7 (the two outers on the other bank) under light engine loads. This switch-over is totally transparent to the driver, because the V4 operation utilizes even 180� firing intervals. The only thing the driver feels is joy when he calculates how much less fuel he's using on a long drive. Chrysler says the Hemi in the 300C sedan is rated for 25 mpg on the highway.

Here's how MDS works: There are four special 2-piece roller lifters for the cylinders that get disabled. The two pieces are concentric--there's an inner portion surrounded by an outer sleeve. The two parts are locked together by two spring-loaded pins when the engine is in 8-cylinder mode and all the pushrods are operating their valves normally. Under light loads, however, the engine management computer signals each solenoid valve to open and apply high oil pressure to its respective exhaust- and intake-valve lifters. This action forces the two pins in each disabling lifter to unlock the two concentric parts. (To help minimize oil contamination, there�s a magnet at the bottom of each solenoid unit to collect ferris debris.)

Now, the outer sleeve continues to follow the camshaft lobe, but the inner portion of the lifter just floats. This results in no pushrod movement, so the valve springs keep the valves closed. Spark and fuel for the respective MDS cylinders are shut off, and now the engine is in 4-cylinder mode.

[image: View Post]EmeraldVFR, on Aug 17 2009, 12:02 PM, said:

The Multiple Displace System is something they've been using in SUV's for some time now. The following refers to Chrysler's 5.7L Hemi V8. I got it off Popular Mechanics' web site. One thing for certain is the new Interceptor is definitely becoming more and more of a touring machine.

The whole point of this exercise was primarily to explain and demonstrate the 2005 Hemi's new Multiple Displacement System (MDS) in an enlightening manner more fun than your average Powerpoint presentation. We got to see the four solenoid valves--mounted directly to the engine block down in the valley of the V8--that disable cylinders 4 and 6 (the two inners on one bank) and cylinders 1 and 7 (the two outers on the other bank) under light engine loads. This switch-over is totally transparent to the driver, because the V4 operation utilizes even 180� firing intervals. The only thing the driver feels is joy when he calculates how much less fuel he's using on a long drive. Chrysler says the Hemi in the 300C sedan is rated for 25 mpg on the highway.

Here's how MDS works: There are four special 2-piece roller lifters for the cylinders that get disabled. The two pieces are concentric--there's an inner portion surrounded by an outer sleeve. The two parts are locked together by two spring-loaded pins when the engine is in 8-cylinder mode and all the pushrods are operating their valves normally. Under light loads, however, the engine management computer signals each solenoid valve to open and apply high oil pressure to its respective exhaust- and intake-valve lifters. This action forces the two pins in each disabling lifter to unlock the two concentric parts. (To help minimize oil contamination, there's a magnet at the bottom of each solenoid unit to collect ferris debris.)

Now, the outer sleeve continues to follow the camshaft lobe, but the inner portion of the lifter just floats. This results in no pushrod movement, so the valve springs keep the valves closed. Spark and fuel for the respective MDS cylinders are shut off, and now the engine is in 4-cylinder mode.

That's why I think it won't be an issue. Granted, the firing order would have to be figured out.

Interesting that a solenoid applies high pressure oil, just like VTEC engagement.

They started using that technology in SUV's to comply with more stringent CAFE standards. The thing is, motorcycles, on average, already get exceptional gas mileage (compared to cars, anyway.) I think Honda is doing this to show people what their engineers are capable of doing.

All this is making me wonder what the new VFR's are gonna be selling for.

[image: View Post]EmeraldVFR, on Aug 17 2009, 12:30 PM, said:

All this is making me wonder what the new VFR's are gonna be selling for.
Mucho Dinero, I'm afraid. Won't that be just peachy. You wait all this time for a new VFR, and then it's priced out of touch for many of those who want one. Hope I'm wrong, but I just don't think so.

[image: View Post]bookmanx, on Aug 15 2009, 03:22 PM, said:

[image: View Post]YoshiHNS, on Aug 15 2009, 02:47 PM, said:

CLIP (not vfr)
1:10 - 1:30


I'm all FOR high tech. I can live with cylinder disable to save gas, hub centric brakes. even photonic warp drive.

But dammit, my car is a manual transmission, that's what I drive. I like the control. My bike will be too. A computer may shift better than me and do the clutch better than me but for the love of all that's right and holy in the world this is a motorcycle, not an RV.


/off to re-read Song of the Sausage Creature


:+1: and :beer:

With the dozen or so models they have sold on the DN01, I highly doubt this automatic tranny will be on the road soon.

With all this specualtion and hype the new VFR can be nothing but a disappointment. Even then it is going to take years to work out the bugs from the new model.

[image: View Post]bookmanx, on Aug 15 2009, 10:22 AM, said:

I'm all FOR high tech. I can live with cylinder disable to save gas, hub centric brakes. even photonic warp drive.

But dammit, my car is a manual transmission, that's what I drive. I like the control. My bike will be too. A computer may shift better than me and do the clutch better than me but for the love of all that's right and holy in the world this is a motorcycle, not an RV.

/off to re-read Song of the Sausage Creature

I agree with you on the computer shifting, accelerating it MAY be better at shifting than me, although I have yet to experience it in a car, especially for passing.
But most are not going to do very well on down shifts.

That is what is majorly wrong with every semi-manual automatic transmissions.

I don't care about the clutch on the way up to speed, but I have not seen one that works very well on rapid sequential downshifts...

[image: View Post]elevation, on Aug 18 2009, 07:41 AM, said:

With the dozen or so models they have sold on the DN01, I highly doubt this automatic tranny will be on the road soon.

It's not a CVT like the DN-01, it's a twin-clutch gearbox like the Volkswagen DSG system. It's a true semi-automatic gearbox.

[image: View Post]JES_VFR, on Aug 19 2009, 03:54 PM, said:

I don't care about the clutch on the way up to speed, but I have not seen one that works very well on rapid sequential downshifts...

Yeah those Ferrari owners are really upset, eh? :huh:

None of these things are new techno;ogy. I know the new GTR has a twin clutch manual as well as the new ferrari. Honda has ben using VCM variable cylinder management for a few years. It shuts down cylinders on a light cruise or while coasting to a stop. The only thing the driver knows is that a little green light comes on the dash. It works.

I dont want this on my bike though.

Well since its all coming from MCN its a load of crap... Never read the rag mag, just going on what everyone post here. And since they have been talking new VFR since 07 (thats as far back as I remember) and we have seen nothing.... My best guess is the 2010 VFR will be an 800cc V-tec that looks a lot like my 07 just in a diffrent color.

To pull this back to semi-automatic transmissions, try having a look at **http://www.biperformance.ca/intro.html**. This company was started by the son of a friend of mine, and is negotiating OEM applications with a European MC manufacturer, specifically for off-road use.

I have seen this in action, and it works very well, even on downshifts. The retail product is apparently well known on the drag racing scene, and helps sustain the business.

If we are going to be faced with Audi style semi automatic or fully automatic transmissions in our new motorcycles, sooner they be developed by racing enthusiasts than bean counters!

John

[image: View Post]dweese, on Aug 19 2009, 09:37 AM, said:

Well since its all coming from MCN its a load of crap... Never read the rag mag, just going on what everyone post here. And since they have been talking new VFR since 07 (thats as far back as I remember) and we have seen nothing.... My best guess is the 2010 VFR will be an 800cc V-tec that looks a lot like my 07 just in a diffrent color.

Don't count on it as other more reputable magazines and online sites have spy photos of a black test mule bike that is reported to be the preproduction VFR1200.

That is an actual bike so, I'm at least a little more confident that there will be a new vfr in the not too distant future.
whether or not I'll want one will entirely depend on how the bike looks, runs and rides.

[image: View Post]pm_wizard, on Aug 19 2009, 12:10 PM, said:

To pull this back to semi-automatic transmissions, try having a look at **http://www.biperformance.ca/intro.html**. This company was started by the son of a friend of mine, and is negotiating OEM applications with a European MC manufacturer, specifically for off-road use.

I have seen this in action, and it works very well, even on downshifts. The retail product is apparently well known on the drag racing scene, and helps sustain the business.

If we are going to be faced with Audi style semi automatic or fully automatic transmissions in our new motorcycles, sooner they be developed by racing enthusiasts than bean counters!

John
that's a nice product, and I have seen other similar examples of button shifting.

In fact I'm involved in a continuously evolving system for a Crippled friend.
He has no use of the left leg so the shifter had to be replaced with something. So the shift is actuated by two button triggered solenoids and managed by a gear indicator plus a black box (to count gears and find neutral 100% of the time). The clutch lever was kept and the shift buttons are hung off the right hand switch pod.

The last paddle-shift sequential transmission I had the pleasure of driving driving, had a lot of delay built into the downshift to allow the clutch actuator to try to match the downshift.
Banging two or three downshifts at the end of a straight could cause you to end up nearly coasting into the corner as the processors were not able to keep up with the driver's demands.

And on the "shifted" automatics like my wife's current Lincoln LS, the downshifts are when the Computer okay's them not when you want or need them.


Even if my experiences are less than current and there are SMG's with automatic clutches, I'm still not sure I want one in my car or on my bike.
I'd much rather keep to the simple mechanical systems that work as fast as I can, and not some electronically controlled clutch mechanism that could leave me stuck some where after one to many lightning shifts.

I used to say this same sort of stuff about ABS braking systems. Now everything has that. If "paddle shifters" are good enough for F1 then who am I to poo poo them? Of course we won't have ones that are as pricey but ....... It is of little moment to me as I will have and like this current VFR for a long time to come.

[image: View Post]JES_VFR, on Aug 19 2009, 10:49 PM, said:

[image: View Post]dweese, on Aug 19 2009, 09:37 AM, said:

Well since its all coming from MCN its a load of crap... Never read the rag mag, just going on what everyone post here. And since they have been talking new VFR since 07 (thats as far back as I remember) and we have seen nothing.... My best guess is the 2010 VFR will be an 800cc V-tec that looks a lot like my 07 just in a diffrent color.

Don't count on it as other more reputable magazines and online sites have spy photos of a black test mule bike that is reported to be the preproduction VFR1200.

That is an actual bike so, I'm at least a little more confident that there will be a new vfr in the not too distant future.
whether or not I'll want one will entirely depend on how the bike looks, runs and rides.


Yup I've seen those shots on the net and the other mags, everyone here has looked at the pics and agreed it does look to be a V4...But saying its a VFR1200 is just a wild guess everyone is making, based on the concept V4 bike Honda had on show last year.

And calling those photos spy shots is a hard call, check out the front on one, you can see dude on the bike looking right at the camera over the top of his sun glasses. So it was no spy, they knew the camera man was standing right there. So very well could be a leaked photo right from Honda.

I guess we will have to wait and see, the 2010 line up should be announced in the next month or so anyways right?

[image: View Post]JES_VFR, on Aug 19 2009, 11:07 PM, said:

[image: View Post]pm_wizard, on Aug 19 2009, 12:10 PM, said:

To pull this back to semi-automatic transmissions, try having a look at **http://www.biperformance.ca/intro.html**. This company was started by the son of a friend of mine, and is negotiating OEM applications with a European MC manufacturer, specifically for off-road use.

I have seen this in action, and it works very well, even on downshifts. The retail product is apparently well known on the drag racing scene, and helps sustain the business.

If we are going to be faced with Audi style semi automatic or fully automatic transmissions in our new motorcycles, sooner they be developed by racing enthusiasts than bean counters!

John
that's a nice product, and I have seen other similar examples of button shifting.

In fact I'm involved in a continuously evolving system for a Crippled friend.
He has no use of the left leg so the shifter had to be replaced with something. So the shift is actuated by two button triggered solenoids and managed by a gear indicator plus a black box (to count gears and find neutral 100% of the time). The clutch lever was kept and the shift buttons are hung off the right hand switch pod.

The last paddle-shift sequential transmission I had the pleasure of driving driving, had a lot of delay built into the downshift to allow the clutch actuator to try to match the downshift.
Banging two or three downshifts at the end of a straight could cause you to end up nearly coasting into the corner as the processors were not able to keep up with the driver's demands.

And on the "shifted" automatics like my wife's current Lincoln LS, the downshifts are when the Computer okay's them not when you want or need them.


Even if my experiences are less than current and there are SMG's with automatic clutches, I'm still not sure I want one in my car or on my bike.
I'd much rather keep to the simple mechanical systems that work as fast as I can, and not some electronically controlled clutch mechanism that could leave me stuck some where after one to many lightning shifts.


My wife has a 2.0T Audi A3. When you put it in to sport mode it does a nice job of downshifting and rev matching, and I have never found it to be slow to repond. Now I've not tried it on a racetrack, but I have pushed it pretty hard on the road. That being said, I still prefer having a clutch and a manual shift, but maybe I haven't spent enough time with the paddle shifters (my wife likes to drive her car....)

John

[image: View Post]dweese, on Aug 20 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

[image: View Post]JES_VFR, on Aug 19 2009, 10:49 PM, said:

Don't count on it as other more reputable magazines and online sites have spy photos of a black test mule bike that is reported to be the preproduction VFR1200.

That is an actual bike so, I'm at least a little more confident that there will be a new vfr in the not too distant future.
whether or not I'll want one will entirely depend on how the bike looks, runs and rides.

Yup I've seen those shots on the net and the other mags, everyone here has looked at the pics and agreed it does look to be a V4...But saying its a VFR1200 is just a wild guess everyone is making, based on the concept V4 bike Honda had on show last year.

And calling those photos spy shots is a hard call, check out the front on one, you can see dude on the bike looking right at the camera over the top of his sun glasses. So it was no spy, they knew the camera man was standing right there. So very well could be a leaked photo right from Honda.

I guess we will have to wait and see, the 2010 line up should be announced in the next month or so anyways right?


I guess my biggest point was that there really is a new bike coming. Is it guarantied to be a 1200cc machine?, who know's what it will be with the crazy honda rounding for model numbers system (the cbr929/954 series was that, but the vfr800 is only 782????)?

My big point was it was an actual bike being test ridden, not a photochop, not some artist's concept painting.
As for the "spy" shots handle, My only point was it was not an official press release by Honda.

Even if it was more of a viral photo leak, it did the team a big favor. It proved that there is a new bike in chamber and that will make some of us wait an see what it is like.

I know that in my case, it might prompt me to get new bike in the next year. I'm really not in any rush, right now, nor do I have particular bike making my palms sweat to own.

[image: View Post]pm_wizard, on Aug 20 2009, 01:03 PM, said:

My wife has a 2.0T Audi A3. When you put it in to sport mode it does a nice job of downshifting and rev matching, and I have never found it to be slow to repond. Now I've not tried it on a racetrack, but I have pushed it pretty hard on the road. That being said, I still prefer having a clutch and a manual shift, but maybe I haven't spent enough time with the paddle shifters (my wife likes to drive her car....)

John
Well as I said it was only my experience and that it was limited as well as likely out of date.
but like you even if it was better than my last experience, I'd probably still rather have real control, instead of it being all the electronics.
There are a few places in my neck of the woods, where things like bad exit ramps and traffic conspire to make multiple rapid downshifts an important action.

[quote name='JES_VFR' date='Aug 21 2009, 03:47 PM' post='639971']

I guess my biggest point was that there really is a new bike coming. Is it guarantied to be a 1200cc machine?, who know's what it will be with the crazy honda rounding for model numbers system (the cbr929/954 series was that, but the vfr800 is only 782????)?

(quote)

Not even just 1200 may mean 1151, the 1200 number itself comes from MCN, which has always been so reliable before...