Thoughts On Sportbike Design

First off I'd like to say I was mildly disappointed in the new VFR and at the same time, mildly impressed with it. But the more I look at it, the more I like it. I like what some of the guys have done on the other threads on Rhinoplasty, some things like a smaller, tinted windshield looked much better. Of course the can will have to go, but don't blame Honda that's an EPA evoltuionary thing, look at all the new bikes, almost all have ugly oversize cans, the aftermarket will fix this.

What I'm thinking about is why don't manufactures take a clue from the Harley faithful and try to stick to tried and proven classic lines, on in our case, sport bike lines, not cruiser lines? For instance, Ducati faithful clamored for a redisign of the 999 and low and behold, Ducati listened and came out with the 1098: single sided swingarm, dual underseat exahusts and killer Italian good looks. The bike is selling well even for being such a single purpose bike.

Honda should think about what a classic sport bike should be and aim the next VFR at that with the added benefit of making it more rider friendly, and longer range. I think most people think a VFR is a gentlemen's sport bike and want most of the performance and handling of true sport bike and the serious looks, but with some decent riding position and range. I'd like more attention paid to the tank and keep it metal and lose the ducting from the fairing into a plastic tank cover. I really don't care for it, I think it makes the bikes look cheesy and is why I don't like some other brands and models. I know it's a functional design to route fresh air into the engine, but it takes away from the CLASSIC looks of a sport bike.

So in that vein, I'd like to see a V-4 powered VFR with a real metal tank a lot like the 6th gen with only with no seams showing, that's what the Harley guys are always poking fun at, that look of mass production. I'd like overall looks of the previous generation of CBR 1000 and would like chain drive and, normal clutch, easy to remove fairing and several color optiions. I see the true sporty sport tourer bike to be a blend of the 6th gen, the CBR 1000 previous gen, the 675 Triumph sport bike, the 1098 Ducati, lighter, great lighting as on the 6th gen and I'm not that opposed to the new headlight design, it can work aesthetically, but the fairing holds it back. CLASSIC means to keep it simple and cheaper somewhere around $11,000 no gimmicks: no VTEC, no multi-cylinder management, no dual clutch.

I love the wheels on the new one and I like the tail end lighting. They should make an insert into the sub frame that will hold a luggage frame that will easily slide into place and then hold hard bags and make the frame and bags optional so the price of the basic bike is not increased too much. They should make removal of the tail license section easy for track use and to show that they actually understand that people like to modify their own bikes. And after all that they should try to evolve this design of an affordable, high performance, killer looking, sporty sport tourer that is affordable. Let the current new version occupy the higher end BMW crowd and the upcoming ST version take the place of the tourey, sport tourer crowd, but we need a CLASSIC sporty sport tourer that slowly evolves wiith minor upgrades for reliability.

Honda needs to listen to us just like Ducati listened to it's customers.

[image: View Post]choco, on Oct 11 2009, 02:00 PM, said:

What I'm thinking about is why don't manufactures take a clue from the Harley faithful and try to stick to tried and proven classic lines, on in our case, sport bike lines, not cruiser lines? For instance, Ducati faithful clamored for a redisign of the 999 and low and behold, Ducati listened and came out with the 1098: single sided swingarm, dual underseat exahusts and killer Italian good looks. The bike is selling well even for being such a single purpose bike.

Honda should think about what a classic sport bike should be and aim the next VFR at that with the added benefit of making it more rider friendly, and longer range. I think most people think a VFR is a gentlemen's sport bike and want most of the performance and handling of true sport bike and the serious looks, but with some decent riding position and range. I'd like more attention paid to the tank and keep it metal and lose the ducting from the fairing into a plastic tank cover. I really don't care for it, I think it makes the bikes look cheesy and is why I don't like some other brands and models. I know it's a functional design to route fresh air into the engine, but it takes away from the CLASSIC looks of a sport bike.

To answer the why not question, it's not made to be a classic, it's made to be the future of motorcycling.

Quote

I love the wheels on the new one and I like the tail end lighting. They should make an insert into the sub frame that will hold a luggage frame that will easily slide into place and then hold hard bags and make the frame and bags optional so the price of the basic bike is not increased too much. They should make removal of the tail license section easy for track use and to show that they actually understand that people like to modify their own bikes.

This bike does come with luggage mounting points. All you have to do is buy the luggage, not luggage and brackets. One of hte mounting points is on the fender, however.

And this is definitely not a bike one should take to the track! It is not designed to be, nor should it be.

I'm not so much talking about this new bike, but the rumored third version, the smaller lighter, simpler version. Let them explore the future, but lets also demand classic sportbike looks like the Ducati faithful did and got.

[image: View Post]choco, on Oct 11 2009, 10:33 PM, said:

I'm not so much talking about this new bike, but the rumored third version, the smaller lighter, simpler version. Let them explore the future, but lets also demand classic sportbike looks like the Ducati faithful did and got.
Shouldn't Honda build the smaller lighter (more focused) version first, before trying to cast a do-it-all net over VFR/ST/Blackbird riders with this "first" version.
Problem is, they might just get too comfortable with this first one and just forget about the two other "rumored" (Dang, I hate hearing that about a Honda again!) versions. It took long enough for them to come up with this one as it is....

Beck
95 VFR

[image: View Post]choco, on Oct 11 2009, 08:00 PM, said:

Honda needs to listen to us just like Ducati listened to it's customers.

I wonder what exactly they asked for when Ducati designed the Stradaperta. Talk about ugly.

[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Oct 11 2009, 08:11 PM, said:

[image: View Post]choco, on Oct 11 2009, 02:00 PM, said:

What I'm thinking about is why don't manufactures take a clue from the Harley faithful and try to stick to tried and proven classic lines, on in our case, sport bike lines, not cruiser lines? For instance, Ducati faithful clamored for a redisign of the 999 and low and behold, Ducati listened and came out with the 1098: single sided swingarm, dual underseat exahusts and killer Italian good looks. The bike is selling well even for being such a single purpose bike.

Honda should think about what a classic sport bike should be and aim the next VFR at that with the added benefit of making it more rider friendly, and longer range. I think most people think a VFR is a gentlemen's sport bike and want most of the performance and handling of true sport bike and the serious looks, but with some decent riding position and range. I'd like more attention paid to the tank and keep it metal and lose the ducting from the fairing into a plastic tank cover. I really don't care for it, I think it makes the bikes look cheesy and is why I don't like some other brands and models. I know it's a functional design to route fresh air into the engine, but it takes away from the CLASSIC looks of a sport bike.

To answer the why not question, it's not made to be a classic, it's made to be the future of motorcycling.

Quote

I love the wheels on the new one and I like the tail end lighting. They should make an insert into the sub frame that will hold a luggage frame that will easily slide into place and then hold hard bags and make the frame and bags optional so the price of the basic bike is not increased too much. They should make removal of the tail license section easy for track use and to show that they actually understand that people like to modify their own bikes.

This bike does come with luggage mounting points. All you have to do is buy the luggage, not luggage and brackets. One of hte mounting points is on the fender, however.

And this is definitely not a bike one should take to the track! It is not designed to be, nor should it be.


I'm sure BLS can come up with some titanium (or just anodized aluminium) hardware to replace the rear slot after performing a fenderectomy!!

Aftermarket business being generated here... let's get the economy moving and block up that money hole!! :cool:

[image: View Post]choco, on Oct 11 2009, 05:33 PM, said:

I'm not so much talking about this new bike, but the rumored third version, the smaller lighter, simpler version. Let them explore the future, but lets also demand classic sportbike looks like the Ducati faithful did and got.

So... You're complaining about the styling of a bike that is only rumored to possibly exist years in the future and no one has seen?

[image: View Post]choco, on Oct 11 2009, 02:00 PM, said:

First off I'd like to say I was mildly disappointed in the new VFR and at the same time, mildly impressed with it. But the more I look at it, the more I like it. I like what some of the guys have done on the other threads on Rhinoplasty, some things like a smaller, tinted windshield looked much better. Of course the can will have to go, but don't blame Honda that's an EPA evoltuionary thing, look at all the new bikes, almost all have ugly oversize cans, the aftermarket will fix this.

What I'm thinking about is why don't manufactures take a clue from the Harley faithful and try to stick to tried and proven classic lines, on in our case, sport bike lines, not cruiser lines? For instance, Ducati faithful clamored for a redisign of the 999 and low and behold, Ducati listened and came out with the 1098: single sided swingarm, dual underseat exahusts and killer Italian good looks. The bike is selling well even for being such a single purpose bike.

Honda should think about what a classic sport bike should be and aim the next VFR at that with the added benefit of making it more rider friendly, and longer range. I think most people think a VFR is a gentlemen's sport bike and want most of the performance and handling of true sport bike and the serious looks, but with some decent riding position and range. I'd like more attention paid to the tank and keep it metal and lose the ducting from the fairing into a plastic tank cover. I really don't care for it, I think it makes the bikes look cheesy and is why I don't like some other brands and models. I know it's a functional design to route fresh air into the engine, but it takes away from the CLASSIC looks of a sport bike.

So in that vein, I'd like to see a V-4 powered VFR with a real metal tank a lot like the 6th gen with only with no seams showing, that's what the Harley guys are always poking fun at, that look of mass production. I'd like overall looks of the previous generation of CBR 1000 and would like chain drive and, normal clutch, easy to remove fairing and several color optiions. I see the true sporty sport tourer bike to be a blend of the 6th gen, the CBR 1000 previous gen, the 675 Triumph sport bike, the 1098 Ducati, lighter, great lighting as on the 6th gen and I'm not that opposed to the new headlight design, it can work aesthetically, but the fairing holds it back. CLASSIC means to keep it simple and cheaper somewhere around $11,000 no gimmicks: no VTEC, no multi-cylinder management, no dual clutch.

I love the wheels on the new one and I like the tail end lighting. They should make an insert into the sub frame that will hold a luggage frame that will easily slide into place and then hold hard bags and make the frame and bags optional so the price of the basic bike is not increased too much. They should make removal of the tail license section easy for track use and to show that they actually understand that people like to modify their own bikes. And after all that they should try to evolve this design of an affordable, high performance, killer looking, sporty sport tourer that is affordable. Let the current new version occupy the higher end BMW crowd and the upcoming ST version take the place of the tourey, sport tourer crowd, but we need a CLASSIC sporty sport tourer that slowly evolves wiith minor upgrades for reliability.

Honda needs to listen to us just like Ducati listened to it's customers.

Dude - your preaching to the choir here, why do you think I ride a 5th gen with RC51 brakes delinked?

Hello VFR848!

MD

Anyone considering a BMW k1300s, would surely be interested in the new VFR. I'm glad it comes with optional 6 speed manual gearbox. and real weight is under 600 lbs fully wet, without the automatic clutch.

I fiqure by the time it comes out in all Black, it will be a hot Bike!

I'll have to recheck at that time

[image: View Post]Beck, on Oct 12 2009, 07:55 AM, said:

Shouldn't Honda build the smaller lighter (more focused) version first, before trying to cast a do-it-all net over VFR/ST/Blackbird riders with this "first" version.

I'm sure they would, if they were a bunch of enthusiasts rather than a business... also remember that in most markets, the Blackbird outsold the VFR two to one. It's obvious that Honda would be seeking to claw back that part of the market first.

I'm quietly confident that the rumoured 1000cc version will be more sports focused without going as far as the CBR1000RR (but who knows?), however even if that were so I'm already pretty much sold on the 12 :cool:

[image: View Post]choco, on Oct 12 2009, 08:33 AM, said:

I'm not so much talking about this new bike, but the rumored third version, the smaller lighter, simpler version. Let them explore the future, but lets also demand classic sportbike looks like the Ducati faithful did and got.
The "smaller, lighter" rumours are probably going to be way off the mark. Full touring and adventure models is what I'm hearing from Aussie news sites.

[image: View Post]mello dude, on Oct 12 2009, 01:31 PM, said:

Dude - your preaching to the choir here, why do you think I ride a 5th gen with RC51 brakes delinked?
Because you're too silly to realise you should have just bought a CBR1000RR? :laugh:

I think the days of Wine and Roses are over. Either wine or roses but not both. The production of a bike or car with or without multiple options is expensive; manufactures cannot continue to flood the market with four or five options of the same platform, thus the production of a vehicle for the masses leaving the modifications to the after-market. This approach will streamline production and reduce year end overage and lost profit.
Just something to think about.

Muff

[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Oct 11 2009, 06:20 PM, said:

[image: View Post]choco, on Oct 11 2009, 05:33 PM, said:

I'm not so much talking about this new bike, but the rumored third version, the smaller lighter, simpler version. Let them explore the future, but lets also demand classic sportbike looks like the Ducati faithful did and got.

So... You're complaining about the styling of a bike that is only rumored to possibly exist years in the future and no one has seen?


I'm not complaining about anything, I'm posing the question that is there or should there be a classic look to sport bikes just as there is a classic look to cruisers? Harley doesn't stray from their basic look from year to year. They sell tons of bikes. I'm not into those types of bikes, but I'm trying to determine if we have had sport bikes long enough for many to have settled on what a sport bike should look like. It seems everybody has some common likes and many of the dislikes from the manufacturers are a result of them trying too hard to be different. Instead of trying so hard to be different, maybe they should be trying to capture the best of the various features and designs as recognized by most sport bike enthusiasts and refine these to where form (art) meets function.

For instance, I'd be very happy if this new 1200 VFR had a sixth gen metal tank with hidden seams, the body work similar to the previous version of the CBR 1000, the headlight power of the 6th gen, the weight of the 5th gen, chain drive even though it is more bothersome. And do this for about $11,000. In other words, this new version is great as a BMW or other large sport tourer competitor, but it has too much excess for those of us who want a long distance sport bike with a decent riding positions.

For sure that new VFR is a bit more bike than the outgoing model. But really it only grew ~50 lbs for having an engine that is 50% bigger and over 50% more powerful. To me it does look very much like the new BMWs it competes with.

I know what you are saying; its playing in a different league now. It just seems that the sporty-touring niche it used to have is now kind of left open, in the Honda lineup, anyway.

But on the other hand, I don't WANT a bike that looks the same as everyone else's sportbike. I like innovation, and would rather have a lot of variety with some stumbles, than have all sportbikes (sport-tourers?) look the same.

Now, I do like the new 1200 a lot; but I wouldn't have minded if they didn't go quite as far, and kept the bike more light and nimble. Where am I gonna use 170hp anway??

[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on Oct 11 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

[image: View Post]choco, on Oct 11 2009, 08:00 PM, said:

Honda needs to listen to us just like Ducati listened to it's customers.

I wonder what exactly they asked for when Ducati designed the Stradaperta. Talk about ugly.



I finally clicked the link. Oh my God, ugly is not the word. What were they thinking?

I'm going to guess that probably sometime in the near future we will get a sportier bike than the VFR1200 is currently (as a VFR800 replacement or even a little more sportier), but I imagine that Honda will be watching the Aprilia RSV4R very very closely to see what kind of market there is for a V4 sportbike.

- Patrick

[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Oct 12 2009, 02:20 AM, said:

[image: View Post]choco, on Oct 11 2009, 05:33 PM, said:

I'm not so much talking about this new bike, but the rumored third version, the smaller lighter, simpler version. Let them explore the future, but lets also demand classic sportbike looks like the Ducati faithful did and got.

So... You're complaining about the styling of a bike that is only rumored to possibly exist years in the future and no one has seen?


Relating the word "rumors" to anything that Honda motorcycling division does is hopeless, as we have just found out with the 7th gen. They just do what they want to do on their own schedules and we can kiss their @55E5 on it! Nyehhh!......
I do admire the way Ducati turned around their top sportbike by throwing away the previous lamented version for the much better appreciated 1098 line. I thought that's how Honda was supposed to treat us!

Beck
95 VFR

I cobled together several posts I've already made, that cover many of the things discussed on this thread. At the bottom would be the guy I'd like designing a new "retro", simple RVF1000R...

Quote

Based on a lot of research and talking to some folks... So far, it's been pretty spot on. The quote at the bottom (from MCN though) does leave some hope for a VFR-R model at some point...

So, here is my guess on models:
VFR1200F (EDIT: NOT VFR1200R): Replacing the VFR and Blackbird, the one we've seen the spy shots of.
VFR1200T: Touring, replacing the ST / Pan European.
VFR1200X: An adventure GS fighter, replacing the Varadero (I originally included concept art).

There will be more to follow:
"First V4s just the 'tip of the iceberg'
The first V4s - the sports-tourer and Pan European/Blackbird-replacement scooped by MCN - are 'just the tip of the iceberg' according to project engineers. Hinting that V4 power will be at the heart of a generation of machines from Honda, MCN's Japanese source revealed the firm is working on a dynasty to overshadow even that of the iconic Fireblade.

"When we first launched the Fireblade in 1992 we had a plan that stretched as far into the future as the 954cc version of 2002. It's the same with the V4s. There are many branches to the family."

Quote

What I have also said (my opinion, again based on some research and talk) in the past is: "The T & X models will be later releases, some have speculated 2011 or later, depending on the new VFRF sales. We'll have to see. Even given the statement above, we have NO info of a R or race based (CBR type) VFR at this time, but doesn't mean they're not going down that road later. IMO MUCH of this strategy will be dependent upon how this new VFRF sells and is received by the press."

[image: View Post]Echo3Niner, on Oct 9 2009, 01:58 AM, said:

I would like to see Honda give Koji Miwa the designer of the CB1100R this platform and have him design a RVF1000R...

[image: Posted Image]

VS.

[image: Posted Image]

[image: View Post]LostCosmonaut, on Oct 13 2009, 12:17 PM, said:

I'm going to guess that probably sometime in the near future we will get a sportier bike than the VFR1200 is currently (as a VFR800 replacement or even a little more sportier), but I imagine that Honda will be watching the Aprilia RSV4R very very closely to see what kind of market there is for a V4 sportbike.

- Patrick


You're probably right about Honda watching Aprilia. I'll also be watching Aprilia to see if they put their V-4 in a sport touring bike, I just hope they don't call it a Futura, again.

[image: View Post]choco, on Oct 14 2009, 11:35 AM, said:

[image: View Post]LostCosmonaut, on Oct 13 2009, 12:17 PM, said:

I'm going to guess that probably sometime in the near future we will get a sportier bike than the VFR1200 is currently (as a VFR800 replacement or even a little more sportier), but I imagine that Honda will be watching the Aprilia RSV4R very very closely to see what kind of market there is for a V4 sportbike.

- Patrick


You're probably right about Honda watching Aprilia. I'll also be watching Aprilia to see if they put their V-4 in a sport touring bike, I just hope they don't call it a Futura, again.

Oh my, wouldn't that be a nice bike! When I was shopping it came down to the Futura or the VFR, tough choice..!