I don't get a discount for having ABS on mine. Whether it's worth it or not is sort of a matter of person opinion. My opinion is that if you're riding the bike on the street one more safety feature isn't a bad thing. If you're buying it as a track bike then it probably isn't necessary.
:fing02: I wish I had ABS!!! It saved my butt from a lethal leftie (pickup truck that dropped a ladder in my lane) when I was on my rode king. I had no out, no lane to change, no where to go but maximum braking! It saved my butt for sure. I would highly advocate ABS sir. And :+1: no need for ABS on the track, but really how many track days will you do with a brand new viffer? :beer:
ABS is definately a personal choice that probably should be based on each individuals riding stlye. I have ABS on my bike and have become spoiled by it. ABS has saved my butt a couple of times and I'm very thankful to have it. The ABS on the VFR is also linked which to me, is another nice feature. Since the brakes are linked, I almost never use my rear brake when sptopping. This might be a bad thing if I ever ride another non linked bike.
I say, if you have to ask, then you probable should get the ABS.
Trust me the guys with alot of track experience are the ones looking at getting the non ABS bike.
I've had both, my '05 didn't have ABS. And my '06 has it, all I can say is that I will never ride another bike on the street without ABS. The first time it saves you from going down it will be worth it... So far it has saved me THREE times, and it's not when you know what's going to happen. Usually when you don't expect that sand on the offramp or you hit a wet patch on the road while coming into a corner & on the brakes. I say if you can afford it, then get it. :idea3:
I think there will always be pros and cons of it...as you have read so far, some people swear by it. I don't like the complexity and cost of it, but it's hard to argue with the testimonials of the people who love it.
I'd do it, I like having the peace of mind in this time of massive deer migrations :biggrin: It's not necessarily the live one's either. There's usually one extra per week on my daily drive to work. Other than unseen obstacles you'll have a marginally higher resale value but more importantly it may appeal to more buyers years from now. Do it so you don't have to kick yourself later...
Well, the way I look at it is this: cheapest safety feature or insurance for your life. Can you afford to pass it up?
It'S useless until you need it in a panic stop (because of some idiot or simply because of wet pavement or gravel in a turn), and then you would ahve paid much, muc more for it cause you avoided a head-on collision with this old pick up truck. Just my humble opinion.
C
PS I DO have it on mine. Besides, all ABS models have the rear shock adjustment knob at the back, so no fiddling around with the wrench to adjust the suspension, right? http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif
I never thought that ABS was necessary, but during my latest encounter with a suburban, I firmly believe that I woulda' been able to stop in time if I had it. There was just enough room, but my front lost it and tucked under.
I now have ABS on my 'new' bike :rolleyes:
In brief, it just might make a diff. bet. a complete crash and burn and a simple OH $HIT moment.
Bought mine without and really wish I had spent the extra $1000 for it. Just buy the Honda extended warranty for the bike so if there is an issue you are covered.(check out HDL parts for the extended warranty. They give VFRD members a really nice price. I got mine through them [you have to call and speak with Walter] and it was cheaper than anywhere else for the extra 4 years - I shopped everywhere) Very expensive to fix an ABS system. As far as the rear adjust - good point, except that in 07 and beyond, there was no rear suspension adjustment wrench supplied with the bike. Gotta buy it separate! Cheap MoFo's.
[image: View Post]motorhead1977, on 25 November 2009 - 10:00 AM, said:
Bought mine without and really wish I had spent the extra $1000 for it. Just buy the Honda extended warranty for the bike so if there is an issue you are covered.(check out HDL parts for the extended warranty. They give VFRD members a really nice price. I got mine through them [you have to call and speak with Walter] and it was cheaper than anywhere else for the extra 4 years - I shopped everywhere) Very expensive to fix an ABS system. As far as the rear adjust - good point, except that in 07 and beyond, there was no rear suspension adjustment wrench supplied with the bike. Gotta but it separate! Cheap MoFo's.
Really?!? No wrench provided?!? :blink: Talk about the wrong place to save $12 (or relatively little money I am thinking) from Honda! Wow. Seems to me you jack up the price of the bike by that much and people will be much happier to get it without having to pay extra. Simple marketing, no? Whatever Honda.
I have an 06' with ABS and would have it no other way. I have to agree with everyone else and say, "It pays for itself when the right situation presents itself." It's saved mine a few times.
[image: View Post]bookmanx, on 25 November 2009 - 08:50 AM, said:
I'm about to pull the trigger on a new 07 RWB VFR today and have my choice, ABS or nonABS.
I'm figuring it's worth it but wanted to get some other folk's opinions.
Is there an ins discount as well for a bike w/ ABS ? I'm waiting on my agent to call me back w/ details.
If there had been a Black ABS and BLack non abs, I would not have gotten the ABS. But Being the one on the floor had ABS , I decided to try it. I've never owned a bike that doesnt skid at one time or another, until the VFR ABS.
On a bike like the vfr , if you going to be riding in alot of nasty wet conditions, seems like a good ideal. I havent ridden the non abs one, to really compare, but I havent been disappointed with the abs model.
Alot of people are looking for abs, might be a good resale item
One word - yes!
It's totally worth it. I've had at least a few occasions where it's come in handy and I'm glad I didn't find out what might have happened without.
For the extra few hundred bucks it may save your life in a sticky, or not-so-sticky, situation.
[image: View Post]Trace, on 25 November 2009 - 02:48 PM, said:
ABS is worthless!!
Until you need it.
Then it's priceless....
+1.
I have ABS, it has only triggered once when I wasn't testing it (grabbing a handfull of front brake on wet pavement), which was during an emergency stop through an S turn (Gravity Cavity) as the front tire left the ground over a rise. Not sure if it made a difference there, as I was already letting off the brake, but if it did, I guess it may have paid for itself.
More than 70% of crashes I encounter could be prevented by ABS - locking up the rear and riding off or highsiding, or grabbing the front too fast and lowsiding. I kind of agree with Honda's ABS philosophy here, if nowhere else.
Guys,
The ABS on my 04 ST are worth their weight in gold....as it is written anti lock brakes....very effective in the wet, had ridden to a class I was giving and pulled up in my front yard that evening after class...I'd forgotten the dew had "fallen"...in a word I stopped no slip.....In the worst of down pours to get caught in a non thinking drive r pulled out in front of me...I slowed and didn't slip or lose ability to come to controlled stop....If its in your reach GET it....
Rodm850g
p.s.
I figure as I am aging and con do nothing about it every advantage available to me I want ....so far no problemo for me....
rod
Would've gladly shelled out an extra $800 for it, but none were available at my dealer, and dammit I wanted a bike that day. :biggrin: Seriously though, Trace said it best. And it will be at the top of my list of must-haves on my next ride!
Of course the jury is in. It's a great thing. Twice in 60K it's made the difference for me and I've been grateful to have it.
I will say the brakes have always felt wooden to me. I've never known whether it was the linked setup or the ABS. They're spectacular but they don't seem to need much involvement from me. I don't have the same since of modulation and control I've had on my other bikes. I've always worked on braking and use my rear brake routinely. My 98 Triumph is kind of a Mack Truck but with it's six piston calipers I get way more feedback while braking, same with the FZR that it replaced.
For me I dont' think ABS would be a deal breaker. It's a really nice thing but not at the top of my priority list.
Technically speaking everyone uses ABS... either be it mechanical or
mental... so which type do you identify with???
Mechanical... An anti-lock braking system (ABS) is a system on
motorcycles which prevents the wheels from locking while braking. The
purpose of this is to allow the rider to maintain steering control
under heavy braking and, in some situations, to shorten braking
distances by allowing the rider to hit the brake fully without the
fear of skidding or loss of control. Disadvantages of the system
include increased braking distances under certain conditions and the
creation of a "false sense of security" among riders who do not
understand the operation and limitations of ABS or their bikes...
Cost 800 weight penality 20lbs
Mental... An alert rider on a reasonable light weight motorcycle
equipped with the latest designed braking system and skilled in the
threshold braking technique... The purpose of this is to allow the
rider to maintain steering control under heavy braking and, in some
situations, to shorten braking distances by allowing the rider to
modulate the brakes fully without the fear of skidding or loss of
control... Disadvantages of the system include increased braking
distances under certain conditions and the creation of a "false sense
of security" among riders who push beyond their limits of mental
ABS...
Cost 0.0 weight penality 0.0
If you aren't sure you can judge available traction, speed and distance, or
don't want to think about it that much, then by all means rely on ABS. but
if you wish to brake hard and still have some skin in the game then read
on...
Step 1
Sort your bike out... check tire pressures and condition, suspension
settings, brake condition, then find a smooth, straight, clean bit of road
without too much camber. Do a few runs braking fairly hard to warm the
tires and get a feel for how it handles. As you line up for your first hard
stop, you need to be relaxed... If you find yourself pitching forward, grip
the tank with your knees to hold your weight off the bars...
Step 2
The initial phase is important because how you first apply the brakes
determines how the bike reacts. Your brakes are not an on/off switch.
You're looking for a smooth initial application that transfers weight on to
the front tire without suddenly compressing the suspension. If you just
grab on the lever, the suspension bottoms out, and then it can't absorb
any more movement. Something has to give and it's usually the tire which
may begin to break traction... So be smooth and be firm... that's the key...
Step 3
Having transferred the weight onto the front tire, you've given yourself
bags of extra grip. To use it, you need to increase the pressure on the
lever progressively. On any modern Sportsbike and most all Standards you
should be able brake hard enough for the rear wheel to lift off the ground.
If it starts hopping that's because the engine is locking it up... clutch in or
slipped and it should stop...
This is hard as you can brake in normal conditions. At this point, the rear
brake's no use to you at all. This is not a stoppie, by the way, that's a
separate stunt...
Step 4
Once you're up to full braking effort, you still have to assess what's going
in you path. If you're about to cross a patch of oil or cross a patch of dirt,
you'll want to release the lever pressure slightly, then increase it again as
the extra risk is passed. You need to be relaxed enough so that if you feel
the wheel locking, you can let lever off until it spins again, then get back
up to braking pressure. The only way to make this an instinctive reaction is
to practise deliberately locking and releasing the brake... if you don't wish
to risk your prize then Keith Code has a special bike built just for you called
the Panic Brake Trainer...
Step 5
As you come almost to the point of stopping, you'll obviously need to
actuate the clutch lever in to avoid stalling you can do this as soon as you
start to brake, but why not use the engine braking for it will help you keep
control. Secondly, slightly slightly release the braking pressure at the very
last moment. This gives the suspension a chance to return to normal
otherwise you come to a halt, and the forks bounce up from full travel,
which can unbalance you as try to put your foot down and stop... mercy
you don't want to avoid an accident and then drop the bike like a
beginner...
How about your BIKE???
I trust it's in good shape, well-adjusted, and with plenty of life left in brake
pads and tires. Wrong tires pressures or worn tires can destroy braking feel
and performance
HANDS???
Some people use all four fingers on the brake lever, and some prefer two or
three. One is a possible with the latest race brakes but I find that the less
fingers the harder to get the fine control I need on the track... so I
alternate between two on the street and four on the track... no one is
going to criticize the number of fingers as long as you can brake in the
shortest distance possible listed in the owners manual...
SURFACE???
Constantly changing... after all... it's the perverted highway... so you need
to keep changing your braking pressure, and be prepared to let the brakes
off altogether over really slippery bits...
ARMS
Don't lock them straight... for you'll lose feel and control. Brace your body
weight by taking weight through the foot pegs and gripping the tank dents
between your knees...
CLUTCH
Leave it engaged until the very last moment it should help you stop quicker
and more in control if you use the engine braking. If the engine starts to
lock the back wheel up, slip the clutch slightly exactly as you would when
you pull away... now if your prize sports a slipper clutch then it will limit the
engine braking automatically for you...
BRAIN
Thinking to itself, "Do I need to stop? Couldn't I just bleed off a little speed
and ride round the problem? Where are my escape routes?" If you plan
well enough ahead then you should hardly ever need to do an emergency
stop. You should always be aware of your position in relation to the
perverted traffic full of cagers out slaughtering the fine art of driving...
EYES
Constantly looking for another way out of trouble... don't look at the
problem or you'll ride straight towards it... rather focus on your escape route...
In conclusion... think of ABS as Able Braking Skills... like tax your brain not your bike...
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 28 November 2009 - 09:42 PM, said:
SURFACE???
Constantly changing... after all... it's the perverted highway... so you need
to keep changing your braking pressure, and be prepared to let the brakes
off altogether over really slippery bits...
It is not possible for any human to modulate braking pressure with the speed and accuracy that the dedicated circuitry, pulser ring, and solenoid of an ABS system provide.
[image: View Post]Lee 2002, on 28 November 2009 - 06:59 PM, said:
It is not possible for any human to modulate braking pressure with the speed and accuracy that the dedicated circuitry, pulser ring, and solenoid of an ABS system provide.
True... but you don't need the speed and accuracy of a ABS system to
modulate the braking pressure safely... you need practice...
Whether a rider can stop more quickly with or without ABS, the point
is moot to me in most cases. The real question is: How much time are
you allowing yourself to stop or slow down? This relates to following
distances, speed in blind corners or any other factor in how much time
it would take you to adjust your speed downward by the necessary
amount. It's a lot like dealing with vehicles that have different
braking capabilities. They're not all created equal. If you
alternate between riding a RC45 and a VFR (humor me) you'd better
leave more cushion when you're on the VFR. You set your speed and
following distances appropriately. It's much the same thing with ABS.
If you aren't sure you can judge available traction, speed and
distance, or don't want to think about it that much, by all means get
ABS. It's not a cure-all, but it can make up for a lot of mistakes.
I take making all of those decisions myself very seriously. So
seriously that I want to have some skin in the game.
[image: View Post]jeremy556, on 25 November 2009 - 11:04 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Trace, on 25 November 2009 - 02:48 PM, said:
ABS is worthless!!
Until you need it.
Then it's priceless....
+1.
I have ABS, it has only triggered once when I wasn't testing it (grabbing a handfull of front brake on wet pavement), which was during an emergency stop through an S turn (Gravity Cavity) as the front tire left the ground over a rise. Not sure if it made a difference there, as I was already letting off the brake, but if it did, I guess it may have paid for itself.
More than 70 of crashes I encounter could be prevented by ABS - locking up the rear and riding off or highsiding, or grabbing the front too fast and lowsiding. I kind of agree with Honda's ABS philosophy here, if nowhere else.
[image: View Post]Lee 2002, on 28 November 2009 - 09:59 PM, said:
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 28 November 2009 - 09:42 PM, said:
SURFACE???
Constantly changing... after all... it's the perverted highway... so you need
to keep changing your braking pressure, and be prepared to let the brakes
off altogether over really slippery bits...
It is not possible for any human to modulate braking pressure with the speed and accuracy that the dedicated circuitry, pulser ring, and solenoid of an ABS system provide.
And if one remembers correctly,
there will be Golden artwork, that will forever be unto those with the ABS VFR's.
Just the look of the ABS system on the VFR demands attention! I mean, that golden marvel never declares notice, but when that moment shows forth, not one will know of its' coming... Yet, ABS will be postulated as the saviour. Well, at least of them who decided upon the ABS model. Accepting upon them, that the time is near... Just maybe, that they will require ABS help?
[image: View Post]DDO-VFR, on 29 November 2009 - 06:20 AM, said:
It's not 'a lot like' it's EXACTLY like insurance. Both are 'worthless' until you need them.
How lucky do you feel? :ohmy:
Brian
Life Insurance is not a 20 weight penalty...
What troubles me about the "ABS dead weight" is the fact it is
present 100% of the time... ain't no way to shed the pounds... and
when dead weight is attached to my wheels the affects are mostly
negative... negative heavy steering... negative slower turn in
response... negative slower suspension action... negative longer
braking distances... =
How much do you think you would have to practice to be able to threshold brake without crashing 100% of the time you had to, across various surfaces, even when you are startled by something that is unexpectedly in your path ? Even Rossi can't do that.
Just because you have ABS doesn't mean you can't threshold brake - just squeeze hard enough to stop as quick as you want without having the ABS engage. The point just before the ABS kicks in is still the 'threshold', just as the same as it is on a bike without ABS - that is, the point where the wheel(s) doing the braking is/are beginning to lose traction.
Lastly, whether you have ABS or not it's still better to go into a corner slow and come out fast than go in fast and come out dead.
I never had to use ABS in a panic scenario on my '04. I know it's there, and have tested it out in a vacant lot- it's good insurance. I would say if you find yourself riding a lot, especially commuting, it is good insurance on making a safer stop if something should come across your path unexpectedly. Also FWIW, it increases the resale value of your bike.
With ABS not being as popular (until recent), I am uncertain if/how insurance groups adjust their rates (if at all) for ABS-equipped models. I know my insurance company doesn't offer any discount for ABS.
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 29 November 2009 - 02:07 AM, said:
If you aren't sure you can judge available traction, speed and
distance, or don't want to think about it that much, by all means get
ABS. It's not a cure-all, but it can make up for a lot of mistakes.
I take making all of those decisions myself very seriously. So
seriously that I want to have some skin in the game.
I don't necessarily disagree with everything you've said, but this is a bit of a generalization. Basically, your "mental ABS" has to work 100%, every time, or else you could find yourself up a creek. Or, you might not - that's the risk you take. I might not ever use the ABS, but as has been mentioned, I can learn where it's threshold is and use my "mental ABS" right up to that point. There's plenty o' stopping to be done without electronic intervention... As far as dead weight, my Viffer's never gonna be a race replica, so 20 lbs. out of 760 gross don't bother me.
A lot of testimonials have been posted here from guys who think ABS saved their butts. And while I'll admit we should all try to be better riders, I'll stop short of saying those guys didn't do everything they should've themselves to avoid imminent doom. If your confidence in controlling every situation that could arise and your opinion of your riding ability is that high, forget the ABS. Me, I don't know anyone who hasn't been caught off guard on the road at least once - and I kinda like knowing the ABS is there.
FWIW, Progressive gave me a discount for the ABS. :fing02:
[image: View Post]SAFE-T, on 29 November 2009 - 03:20 PM, said:
How much do you think you would have to practice to be able to threshold brake without crashing 100% of the time you had to, across various surfaces, even when you are startled by something that is unexpectedly in your path ? Even Rossi can't do that.
You can learn threshold braking in 2 days at the Keith Code Superbike School... if you are startled by
something then it's possible that you're not anticapating the unexpected...
Quote Keith Code...
"Locking up the front wheel is one of the most terrifying parts of riding. Keith's Panic Brake Trainer allows you to experience a fully locked front wheel and you will be trained to save it! Available at all Two-Day Camp schools."
[image: View Post]carlitos92, on 29 November 2009 - 09:02 PM, said:
I don't necessarily disagree with everything you've said, but this is a bit of a generalization. Basically, your "mental ABS" has to work 100%, every time, or else you could find yourself up a creek. As far as dead weight, my Viffer's never gonna be a race replica, so 20 lbs. out of 760 gross don't bother me.
Why can't we be 100% focused at all times riding??? what could be
splitting our attention span??? after life is the prize...
Our bikes are getting better but riders are still making the same
mistakes... so I think the only viable shortcut to less flaws per mile
still rest in a rider's head... get that right and maybe you'll never
have to use ABS in a panic...
Don't bother you??? mercy me... why I'd shave my legs if I though it
would lower my bikes burden...
[image: View Post]SAFE-T, on 29 November 2009 - 06:20 PM, said:
Just because you have ABS doesn't mean you can't threshold brake - just squeeze hard enough to stop as quick as you want without having the ABS engage. The point just before the ABS kicks in is still the 'threshold', just as the same as it is on a bike without ABS - that is, the point where the wheel(s) doing the braking is/are beginning to lose traction.
Great point SAFE-T...unfortunately it's one that often gets lost in all the hairy chested postings of those that cannot yet comprehend how to use a new tool... :goofy:
For those that have not yet ridden a modern ABS, beg a ride on a CBR1000RR when you get a chance, it will definitely open your mind a bit. If you have even a modest level of inquisitiveness, it will compel you to re-examine your thoughts on what modern ABS is all about... :twocents:
If that opportunity is not available, read the reviews and ride reports done by respected journos and racers...they really hint at what is around the corner in terms of how bikes are going to change, and how our mindset as riders will adapt along with them...
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 30 November 2009 - 01:24 AM, said:
You can learn threshold braking in 2 days at the Keith Code Superbike School... if you are startled by
something then it's possible that you're not anticapating the unexpected...
You know... though I would love to, the sad fact is that I am not going to Keith Code or any other riding school any time soon. In the meantime, I refuse to avoid a hobby/sport/pastime that I love just because I am not expert-level at it. If I thought that way, I wouldn't have any kids. :goofy:
Likewise, I expect that you've got a few years on me, but I'm not going to wait until I'm your age and have your experience to ride. ;)
So, again - yes, we all should aspire to be better riders. But I just became an "expert-level bike braker," and it's only cost me $800 or so. I can live with that. I know how the system works, and plan on exploiting it whenever possible. I don't see shame in that any more than I do using VTEC.
Threshold braking will not help you in situations where the surface is slippery, in gravel or in a true panic (last resort stop).
The technique for emergency stops with ABS - grab the whole brake, and as much, and quickly as possible. Frankly, when it's that easy - why wouldn't I want it on my bike?
I'm very familiar with finding optimum loading on the front tire, progressively breaking harder as the weight transfers and coming to a stop using threshold braking.
We can't do everything 100% right, 100% of the time - that's why we invented machines. ;)
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 29 November 2009 - 11:33 PM, said:
[image: View Post]carlitos92, on 29 November 2009 - 09:02 PM, said:
I don't necessarily disagree with everything you've said, but this is a bit of a generalization. Basically, your "mental ABS" has to work 100%, every time, or else you could find yourself up a creek. As far as dead weight, my Viffer's never gonna be a race replica, so 20 lbs. out of 760 gross don't bother me.
Why can't we be 100% focused at all times riding??? what could be
splitting our attention span??? after life is the prize...
Our bikes are getting better but riders are still making the same
mistakes... so I think the only viable shortcut to less flaws per mile
still rest in a rider's head... get that right and maybe you'll never
have to use ABS in a panic...
Don't bother you??? mercy me... why I'd shave my legs if I though it
would lower my bikes burden...
Your priorities are clearly different sir, most people here aren't looking to shave every ounce possible off their bike to decrease their lap times by a fraction of a second. Most people with VFR's are looking for a spirited ride down a nice twisty country road, and ABS isn't for routine braking duties it's for emergencies. Like coming around a blind corner to discover a vehicle stopped in your lane with gravel on the road surface. If a person is engaging the ABS every time they come up to a corner clearly they're pushing way too hard on a public road or they took a street oriented bike with ABS to the track.
Truth of the matter is only a small percentage of riders will ever have the reflexes to react appropriately in an emergency. So even if you took everyone's ABS away, and Keith Code properly instructed every rider with good breaking technique... In an panic stop many riders would still crash without the aid of ABS.
On the track I agree 100%, get rid of the ABS and learn how to properly use your brakes. But on the street... getting rid of ABS is sort of like disconnecting your airbag, or taking off your seat-belt. If you have a device available to you that might keep you safer why wouldn't you use it?
[image: View Post]bookmanx, on 25 November 2009 - 08:50 AM, said:
I'm about to pull the trigger on a new 07 RWB VFR today and have my choice, ABS or nonABS.
I'm figuring it's worth it but wanted to get some other folk's opinions.
Is there an ins discount as well for a bike w/ ABS ? I'm waiting on my agent to call me back w/ details.
The only time ABS is worth paying extra for is if you need it. You just need to know ahead of time if you're going to need it...or know how to brake effectively without it. No need for a lot of discussion. It just isn't that complicated..... :fing02:
My '04 is a non-ABS bike, which I bought used from the original owner. It was in mint, bone stock condition, in the year and color I wanted, low miles and close to home. I had wanted an ABS bike but settled for the perfect bike without it. But if I had it to do over again, I'd hold out for a bike with ABS. I haven't needed it yet, but it would be good to have it, especially if you ride in all weather conditions.
Very recent example of why I wish my motorcycle had ABS: On my way to the post office today on a 4-lane city street in my '07 CR-V (w/ABS) an oncoming driver blocked from view by a big rig (waiting to turn left in the left lane in my direction of travel) turned left across my lane. The driver gunned it and suddenly I saw the entire right side of his maroon Jeep Cherokee. I only had a split second to react and slammed on my brakes - the hardest I've done in a long time - and I believe ABS saved my A-S-S. If I had been on my non-ABS bike instead I'd probably have gone down.
[image: View Post]JTG, on 30 November 2009 - 02:00 PM, said:
Truth of the matter is only a small percentage of riders will ever have the reflexes to react appropriately in an emergency. So even if you took everyone's ABS away, and Keith Code properly instructed every rider with good breaking technique... In an panic stop many riders would still crash without the aid of ABS.
On the track I agree 100%, get rid of the ABS and learn how to properly use your brakes. But on the street... getting rid of ABS is sort of like disconnecting your airbag, or taking off your seat-belt. If you have a device available to you that might keep you safer why wouldn't you use it?
My priority is the same as every other rider... stop with all my skill...
Approximately three-fourths of motorcycle accidents I see involved
collision with another vehicle... that brings us back to the question
of whether a rider can stop more quickly with or without ABS being
moot... The real question is: How much time are you allowing
yourself to stop or slow down? This relates to following distances,
speed in blind corners or any other factor in how much time it would
take you to adjust your speed downward by the necessary amount...
I see more motorcycle riders running wide on a curve due to excess
speed or under-cornering... I don't see many falls due to over
braking...
If you were properly instructed by Keith Code on good breaking
techniques... then you would have a learned automatic response to an
emergency situation which is key in controlling panic... I realize
controlling panic is a very tough challenged. It requires that you
ignore your minds overriding thoughts of imminent catastrophe. which
is a lot easier said than done. But the key to controlling that panic
impulse is confidence in knowing what to do when you find yourself in
those situations, and that only comes from proper riding instruction
and practice... thats why I say tax your mind with knowledge not your
bike with extra weight...
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 01 December 2009 - 02:14 AM, said:
Approximately three-fourths of motorcycle accidents I see involved
collision with another vehicle... that brings us back to the question
of whether a rider can stop more quickly with or without ABS being
moot... The real question is: How much time are you allowing
yourself to stop or slow down? This relates to following distances,
speed in blind corners or any other factor in how much time it would
take you to adjust your speed downward by the necessary amount...
I see more motorcycle riders running wide on a curve due to excess
speed or under-cornering... I don't see many falls due to over
braking...
Interesting, that is about the opposite of what I see around here.
Less than 25% of motorcycle crashes I see involve another vehicle, the vast majority are single vehicle incidents. Besides cornering problems - running off, ground clearance, road surface hazards, riders seem to mostly lock up the rear brake and highside (usually cruisers), or lock the front brake and lowside (mostly sport/standard bikes).
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 10 December 2009 - 04:28 PM, said:
How to stop quick with ABS...
1)Identify the threat...
2)Check ABS inop light...
3)Inop Light off??? apply brakes without having to think about available traction...
4)Inop light on??? apply brakes being an alert rider to available traction...
That's pretty funny. But realistically, we can assume that any rider worth their weight in beans keeps occasional tabs on their gauge cluster during a ride - not to mention checks for idjit lights before he/she takes off. We can also assume that just because one has ABS does not mean that the learned habit is to apply full pressure to the lever/pedal every time.
Unfortunately, in many cases, the time between steps 1 and 3 is less than a second. You either have the training/instinct to get it right, or you don't. No matter how smart you are or how many classes you think you've learned from - if the claim is that you will never, ever be out-smarted (out-startled?) by the situation... you are wrong. Sorry.
Has anyone even brought up weather yet? Do you ride in rain? On roads that aren't spotless? Roads where vehicles leave oil residue, etc? Yes, there is "being prepared" for these situations and understanding the challenges of each. Yes, there is riding accordingly. But for a non-expert, a bike with ABS is often going to stop shorter and more safely in certain, very common situations. It's already been tested, published, read, linked to, and quoted. Done deal. Do I aspire to be an expert? Sure. Am I one? No. Might never be. But I'm also not taking my VFR to the track any time soon, and I like having the ABS arrow in my quiver for my slicing-and-dicing, real-world commute.
ABS is not right for you. We get it. But you are in the minority... If it makes you feel better - consider yourself in an "exclusive club." ;)
My '07 is non ABS and yeah, I think ABS is a good idea and worth $800.00 bucks. For me the linked brakes and the excellent feel of the vfr have allowed me to be safe so far!! No regrets, been riding nearly 30 years without abs, maybe next time......
[image: View Post]carlitos92, on 10 December 2009 - 06:42 PM, said:
Do you ride in rain?
I swore off rain riding back in 1981 during a trip from Tokyo to Hamamatsu Honda factory...
see I don't look happy... note the plastic bags on the handle bars...
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/101/265309906_7de7e9b98e_o.jpg
Hi everyone...IMO, ABS should be a standard feature for all vehicles (cages and motorcycles alike). A simple solution for the purists out there would be to incorporate a switch in the ABS circuit that would disable when required, ie; track days or very slow, low traction manuvers etc....Just my opinion.
"While the shortest stopping distance on dry pavement came aboard the non-ABS bike, safely finding the limits on a bumpy surface required four attempts. Only a second pass was needed on the more predictable smooth surface to beat the ABS. Mulligans, however, are not a luxury one enjoys when faced with a real-world panic stop. The fairly close wet-road stopping distance of the two can also be attributed to the consistent surface condition throughout the stop. Once again, throw in variables such as a deep puddle or a rain-soaked paint line, and there's little doubt that the gap between the two bikes' stopping distances would increase. And remember, this testing was done with a practiced hand/foot at the controls; less-skilled operators will benefit that much more from this smarter ABS."
Practised hands, no mulligans or do-overs - sounds like 98% of riders to me.
[image: View Post]Macs06VFR, on 11 December 2009 - 12:42 PM, said:
Bankmanx - so, did you pull the trigger yet?
He did, though I'm not sure if he ever confirmed that he ended up with the ABS model or not. Can't say I blame him. :biggrin:
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 11 December 2009 - 03:21 PM, said:
The way some people are open minded is by the hole in their head...
Exactly! The last time I tried this "open mind" thing, my brain fell out, and I was hours on my hands and knees trying to find it in the carpet! :goofy:
[image: View Post]carlitos92, on 11 December 2009 - 03:41 PM, said:
Exactly! The last time I tried this "open mind" thing, my brain fell out, and I was hours on my hands and knees trying to find it in the carpet! :goofy:
I'd say something here but I'm reminded that the stuffy Adult is talking...
lets hope he doesn't crawl up his own ass and suffocates...
Obviously late to the party here and I'm sure the OP has already made his decision, but I just wanted to add my recent experience to the mix.
A few weeks ago my brother and I were out for a little afternoon ride. He was on my new Buell 1125R and I was on my wife's SV650N becuase my ABS VFR is out of commission due to issues with the stator. Anyway, as we approached a stop sign I applied the front brake to slow from approx. 50mph. Unknowingly, I rolled over a small patch of tar on the road while braking. The front end locked up and before I could register what was happening, I was on the ground. Skid marks told the story clearly. This whole situation would have been avoided had I been on the viffer. But I wasn't and now I'm typing this with a cast on my right hand and I have a Suzuki in the garage that needs all new levers on the right side.
So for future buyers that are deciding if they want/need ABS or not...get the ABS!
[image: View Post]tyrroneous, on 18 December 2009 - 06:55 AM, said:
Obviously late to the party here and I'm sure the OP has already made his decision, but I just wanted to add my recent experience to the mix.
A few weeks ago my brother and I were out for a little afternoon ride. He was on my new Buell 1125R and I was on my wife's SV650N becuase my ABS VFR is out of commission due to issues with the stator. Anyway, as we approached a stop sign I applied the front brake to slow from approx. 50mph. Unknowingly, I rolled over a small patch of tar on the road while braking. The front end locked up and before I could register what was happening, I was on the ground. Skid marks told the story clearly. This whole situation would have been avoided had I been on the viffer. But I wasn't and now I'm typing this with a cast on my right hand and I have a Suzuki in the garage that needs all new levers on the right side.
So for future buyers that are deciding if they want/need ABS or not...get the ABS!
Could future buyers also avoided this whole mess by... a) noticing the tar... b) getting trained in the threshold braking technique where you learn to skid the front 1 to 3 feet without falling???
Why not spend all that money needed to get leathers, a dot approved helmet, riding boots and gloves on a street oriented motorcycle training where you are trained to avoid getting into an accident. So what's with all that gear Larry? It's just excess weight.
[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on 18 December 2009 - 12:30 PM, said:
Why not spend all that money needed to get leathers, a dot approved helmet, riding boots and gloves on a street oriented motorcycle training where you are trained to avoid getting into an accident. So what's with all that gear Larry? It's just excess weight.
I think that VFRD should bring in a 'Beating a Dead Horse" emoticon.
Other forums have it. Why not us? We seem to be doing plenty of that.
http://www.ryanmcbain.com/forums/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse.gif
[image: View Post]Rice, on 18 December 2009 - 10:01 AM, said:
That's going right for the jugular :biggrin:
[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on 18 December 2009 - 12:30 PM, said:
Why not spend all that money needed to get leathers, a dot approved helmet, riding boots and gloves on a street oriented motorcycle training where you are trained to avoid getting into an accident. So what's with all that gear Larry? It's just excess weight.
I think that VFRD should bring in a 'Beating a Dead Horse" emoticon.
Other forums have it. Why not us? We seem to be doing plenty of that.
http://www.ryanmcbain.com/forums/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse.gif
I have a question however...can ABS be added to a non ABS bike, or are costs and labor prohibitively expensive?
Hell, I probably would have gotten it if I had the choice, but the used viffer I bought didn't have it...
[image: View Post]ace57, on 18 December 2009 - 12:22 PM, said:
I have a question however...can ABS be added to a non ABS bike, or are costs and labor prohibitively expensive?
Hell, I probably would have gotten it if I had the choice, but the used viffer I bought didn't have it...
ace57
You would be better off selling the bike and buying one with ABS.
For those who ride in all weather, not just when conditions are perfect, ABS is a good idea. Arguing that you have the training to never need it is the same argument I hear for not wearing safety glasses in shop classes, helmets on street/dirt bikes, and life jackets in boats.
It's not the normal things that gets you, it's the surprises...and eventually we all get surprised.
Where as a noob would blame the fall on the lack of ABS... Rossi blames himself for leaning over in the marbles...
Quote Rossi:
"I was a bit wide at Turn 1 and in order to get back on the racing line I moved too far left and ended up braking on a dirty part of the track, as soon as I leaned the bike to the right, it dropped."
Rossi said he was Jackass for falling at Indy... he donned ears at the
next podium and even painted his helmet... a rider taxes the head... not
the bike with dead weight...
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 18 December 2009 - 02:00 PM, said:
Where as a noob would blame the fall on the lack of ABS... Rossi blames himself for leaning over in the marbles...
Quote Rossi:
"I was a bit wide at Turn 1 and in order to get back on the racing line I moved too far left and ended up braking on a dirty part of the track, as soon as I leaned the bike to the right, it dropped."
I don't know who in their right mind would blame the lack of ABS for their wreck. But there are many, myself included, that would have stayed upright had their bike been equiped with ABS. Personally, I was too preoccupied with the 3 deer that had JUST crossed the road in front of us and the large pile of gravel in the intersection I was approaching to notice the 6"x12" patch of tar. Once the cast comes off, I will be practicing hard braking...because ABS should be a safety net, not a crutch.
BTW Larry, would ABS have been a benefit when you and Mr. RC45 parted ways a couple years ago? Just curious.
Where as a noob would blame the fall on the lack of ABS... Rossi blames himself for leaning over in the marbles...
Quote Rossi:
"I was a bit wide at Turn 1 and in order to get back on the racing line I moved too far left and ended up braking on a dirty part of the track, as soon as I leaned the bike to the right, it dropped."
Rossi said he was Jackass for falling at Indy... he donned ears at the
next podium and even painted his helmet... a rider taxes the head... not
the bike with dead weight...
I guess he wasn't, how did you say it, "100% focused". Perhaps he should take some braking classes from your buddy, Keith Code. :goofy:
Where as a noob would blame the fall on the lack of ABS... Rossi blames himself for leaning over in the marbles...
Quote Rossi:
"I was a bit wide at Turn 1 and in order to get back on the racing line I moved too far left and ended up braking on a dirty part of the track, as soon as I leaned the bike to the right, it dropped."
Rossi said he was Jackass for falling at Indy... he donned ears at the
next podium and even painted his helmet... a rider taxes the head... not
the bike with dead weight...
I guess he wasn't, how did you say it, "100% focused". Perhaps he should take some braking classes from your buddy, Keith Code. :goofy:
Real-world donkey ears are what tyrroneous has on his right hand. Personally I would still rather avoid them.
As for the Keith Code classes, I've heard one can learn everything they need to know in two days. Maybe Rossi is only halfway through the course? :goofy:
[image: View Post]tyrroneous, on 18 December 2009 - 12:16 PM, said:
BTW Larry, would ABS have been a benefit when you and Mr. RC45 parted ways a couple years ago? Just curious.
No... just quiz KeithBob as he witinessed the whole mess... ABS would have set Mr.RC45 on
a path of destruction... if fact we joked that someone was sure to suggest that ABS would
have saved me...
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 18 December 2009 - 09:00 PM, said:
Quote Rossi:
" and ended up braking on a dirty part of the track,as soon as I leaned the bike to the right, it dropped."
What dirty part? Did some vehicle spill some diesel or radiator fluid. Maybe some sand blown of a trialer? He better not take his chances riding on the street as outside of the track I 've never seen those men waving flags to warn riders for dirty spots on the road.
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 18 December 2009 - 08:57 AM, said:
Could future buyers also avoided this whole mess by... a) noticing the tar... b) getting trained in the threshold braking technique where you learn to skid the front 1 to 3 feet without falling???
It must be nice to never make a mistake in life. I've been trying to master that trick for 48 years now and have yet to be successful. I think I'll keep my ABS-equipped bike and continue to wear safety gear though. Even though ditching my leathers, helmet, gloves, and boots could probably shave several pounds off the bike, I'm a street rider. My bike has never been raced and probably never will, so saving a few pounds isn't worth it to me.
Where as a noob would blame the fall on the lack of ABS... Rossi blames himself for leaning over in the marbles...
Quote Rossi:
"I was a bit wide at Turn 1 and in order to get back on the racing line I moved too far left and ended up braking on a dirty part of the track, as soon as I leaned the bike to the right, it dropped."
Rossi said he was Jackass for falling at Indy... he donned ears at the
next podium and even painted his helmet... a rider taxes the head... not
the bike with dead weight...
Can we buy this helmet? Cause I'm a donkey on a regular basis when I ride or even drive for that matter. At least one mental mistake a week!! (usually in traffic, minor mistakes, no consequences, but still a mistake)
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/lurk.gif Wow! I wish I had followed this thread a little closer. Very entertaining.
As I said in my initial post, the electronics, solenoids, and pulser ring of ABS can react and modulate much faster and with greater resolution than any human could.
I wish my motorcycle had ABS. Much like it is doubtful I will never own a non-injected bike ever again... After my VFR, I doubt any future motorcycles will be without ABS.
I love to attempt perfection. But sometimes I fail... and I certainly can't guarantee that I always fail to the safe side of the equation.
Another voice of reason.
I think the thread should be - buy ABS if possible unless you are BLS - in which case it's not needed because his skill set is so high (save any wipeouts he's had at VFR meets).
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/public/style_images/light/snapback.png' alt='View Post' />Lee 2002, on 19 December 2009 - 02:50 PM, said:
As I said in my initial post, the electronics, solenoids, and pulser ring of ABS can react and modulate much faster and with greater resolution than any human could.
I wish my motorcycle had ABS. Much like it is doubtful I will never own a non-injected bike ever again... After my VFR, I doubt any future motorcycles will be without ABS.
I love to attempt perfection. But sometimes I fail... and I certainly can't guarantee that I always fail to the safe side of the equation.
[image: View Post]Baketech, on 19 December 2009 - 05:10 AM, said:
Are you joking? :unsure:
I'm serious... name the electronic aids on Rossi M1 that you think improve braking performance...
Quote MotoGp Tech:
"MotoGp is unique in motorcycle racing because it is the only class
that is allowed to run brakes other than "standard" steel items. As a
result, in the dry, the bikes are equipped with carbon discs which as
substantially lighter than their steel counterparts."
"In MotoGP, the work of the brakes has increased as the tires have
evolved. It used to be that tire grip was the limiting factor, but now
tires have developed so much that the only way to achieve maximum
braking is to slam the brakes on hard in order to squash the tyre hard
against the track, effectively increasing the area in contact with the
track and, in turn, increasing the amount of stopping force that can
be applied. This strategy has been so successful that the limiting
factor now is a motorcycle's propensity to trip over the front tyre,
and flip over, if the brakes are applied too savagely. This 'hit the
brakes hard then modulate them' grip strategy means that it is very
difficult to use one of these bikes at anything less than full
intensity."
Note the word "modulate" that means rider... there is no mention of an
electronic aid such as ABS...
[image: View Post]Baketech, on 19 December 2009 - 05:10 AM, said:
Absolute interwebz bollocks of course...he simple outbraked himself, and after his initial comments about "dirty lines" he said as much. Watch the vid...he was doing a 90 mph stoppie at the time he tucked, that doesn't happen in the marbles...
I did watch the vid frame by frame as I have the MotoGp package... the front tuck without so
much as a hint of a stoppie... it suprised Rossi so much that he when right to the data for
answers... if he'd tucked under braking he would already have his answer...
Quote Rossi:
"As soon as I leaned the bike to the right, it dropped. Honestly, right there and then I couldn't
understand why I had crashed, but then we looked at the data. In any case it was an error with
my racing line,"
[image: View Post]Baketech, on 19 December 2009 - 12:34 PM, said:
So Rossi relies on electronic aids to provide maximum braking, and that's good enough for me... :fing02:
True but deceptive... Rossi's aids afford HIM the stability off the
gas for HIM to better modulate maximum braking efficiency... there are
no ABS systems on Rossi's M1... Rossi needs that extra stability
because Yamaha spins his crankshaft backwards to offset the long I4
crankshafts gyroscopic procession and it's resistance to turning...
Quote MotoGp Tech:
Crankshafts are quite heavy. In MotoGP they are probably between 4kg
and 8kg. In a motorcycle weighing only 148kg, that's a significant
part of the bike's weight. The V engine will typically have a very
short crankshaft, whereas an in-line four has weight sticking out
further from the center line. The effect of this is that, for a given
steering input (assuming everything else is the same), an in-line four
will require more effort to turn or, more accurately, roll over, than
a V4, simply because the ends of the crankshaft have to be moved
further.
The V4 Honda has its crankshaft turning forwards - the same way as the wheels
Rossi's I4 Yamaha has its crank turning the other way round.
It all has to do with stability. When revolving at speed, the wheels
on a motorcycle act like gyroscopes, and they don't want to change
direction. This helps to keep the motorcycle vertical and stable. It
takes effort to make them change direction, and more effort to get
them to stop doing it once you have started; and when you do change
direction some interesting things happen.
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 18 December 2009 - 11:34 PM, said:
[image: View Post]SpiralGray, on 18 December 2009 - 04:39 PM, said:
It must be nice to never make a mistake in life.
Have you noticed the more braking skills learned in training the less mistakes are made???
Wow, this thread is an open sore that won't go away.
From the lengthy back-and-forth, it's pretty clear that BLS is promoting the false dichotomy fallacy: a rider either is an awesome, highly-trained, competent , omniscient, god-like moto-hero..... OR a rider has/wants ABS. Malarkey.
As far as the tests I see now and then that say that in certain circumstances the non-ABS equipped bike stops in a shorter distance, so often this is the conclusion made only after multiple attempts to do so. I call BS. Go out and do (at least) 30 stops with the ABS-equipped bike and 30 stops with the non-ABS bike in a controlled environment. Show the stopping distance distributions and statistics, and then we'll talk. And fine, do it for different rider skill levels, too.
[image: View Post]Baketech, on 19 December 2009 - 01:46 PM, said:
Not deceptive...truth. Read up on the system, and perhaps it will be more clear?
Yamaha's Idle Control System (ICS) keeps two of the four throttle
bodies slightly open when the throttle is closed to help control the
engine braking... ICS deals with the rear tire only whereas ABS would
deal with the front tire... there are no ABS systems on Rossi's bike
or you would not be talking about his stoppies or front end tucks...
[image: View Post]huskysooner, on 19 December 2009 - 02:49 PM, said:
From the lengthy back-and-forth, it's pretty clear that BLS is promoting the false dichotomy fallacy: a rider either is an awesome, highly-trained, competent , omniscient, god-like moto-hero..... OR a rider has/wants ABS. Malarkey.
Negative... I'm promoting braking skills under the guidance of the
highly trained... maybe then a rider will learn to structure their
braking from beginning to end in a number of ways to feel more
competent on the brakes...
Ha ha. The unfortunate part is that in the movie "Beetlejuice" chanting his name three times also made him disappear.
Nope, just looked - still here... ;)
[image: View Post]azboy, on 31 December 2009 - 07:10 PM, said:
This thread should have been euthanized as soon as Beetlejuice showed up. Trying to have a conversation with anybody from the AHRMA, concerning the benfits of modern technology, is akin to saying the world isn't flat.
If everyone would step back from their PC's and smoke a nice big doobie, everything would be so much better.http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs6/i/2005/041/9/b/_weed__by_Club_Marijuana.gif
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/public/style_images/light/snapback.png' alt='View Post' />dirtbag, on 31 December 2009 - 05:39 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Hobie1dog, on 31 December 2009 - 03:21 PM, said:
If everyone would step back from their PC's and smoke a nice big doobie, everything would be so much better.
Page 10
if you haven't noticed, there is a bunch of pot stirrers around here, not pot smokers http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/goofy.gif
There are a lot of Canadians here. Just sayin'.
Kinda' sorry to see this one dying. I had so many unanswered questions.
Damn, I was hoping I would be at the top of page 10.
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 31 December 2009 - 01:58 AM, said:
All my life long riding pals never had an ABS equipped bike and they
are doing fine as well... it's not that they aren't in favor of ABS...
it just that they prefer to tax their minds with mental ABS... it's
not only more reliable than mechanical ABS it cost 0.0 and weights
0.0...
If or when I eventually get the Multistrada 1200 I'll let you try it out and measure your minimum braking distance with ABS turned on and off.
[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on 31 December 2009 - 10:39 AM, said:
It's all fine and dandy that you, who learned to ride motorcycles long before ABS was invented, stick to non ABS bikes and rely on your lifelong experience when it comes to braking (although you did admit not having ridden in the rain for the past 30 years). But to me, telling (novice) riders not to spend some additional $ on added safety because of some 30 year old report dealing with motorcycle accidents and countermeasures. Of course ABS is not listed as one of the countermeasures as it didn't exist. It does mention proper training as one of the countermeasures but it seems getting training was not mandatory back then.
Quote
24. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents.Is it mandatory now? I don't think anyone on this board is against getting proper training and I think I have had some decent training in the past and regulary practice emergency stops, but I still find it quite hard to judge just how much grip I have at any given moment as there are so many variables (not taking any of the human factors into account :happy: ). Wouldn't it be nice to have a backup system that is always there to assists you in case you make a misjudgement? If those few pounds are so important to you why not get a RSV4? It has the 1000CC V4 you want and weighs considerably less that your RC45.
Seeing the other posts here :laugh: I think this topic is coming to a close. Looking forward to the 2010 traction control topic :beer:
You're right I did learn the hard way to ride but I'm just like everyone else
in here... I'm still learning to stop these things...
What??? after 30 years of real world causes and effects of accidents
the Hurt report is not to be trusted??? is there any doubt that the
new report will not reaffirm the old report that Motorcycle rider
training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to
reduced injuries in the event of accidents???
I have no problem if a customers treats ABS as a backup... but don't
you hate to see videos where riders still under use their brakes to
the degree that ABS is just a $1000 dead weight???
You've noticed that weight is super important to me... but I don't
expect the same level of weight reduction from my customers...
however I do expect them to really squeeze that lever like their life
depends on it... which it does... so I like discussions where we divide
the excuses and mulitply the training skills...
If I wanted something as fast as a 1000 V4... I'd just kit Mr.RC45
with HRC goodies... because he is already lighter than the RSV4 by 13
lbs... http://farm4.static....8e8f2d31a_b.jpg
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 01 January 2010 - 06:08 PM, said:
What??? after 30 years of real world causes and effects of accidents
the Hurt report is not to be trusted???
It is just outdated and I am sure the outcome will be different now. Brakes have vastly improved especialy on sportbikes, Same goes for training, at least her a lot of emphasis is put on braking skills and yes, using the mainly the front to reduce speed. But as technology has moved on, so has training and most riding schools supply ABS equiped bikes to their students and learn how to use that to its full potential. Also all highly trained and skilled professional riders like motorcycle cops and paramedics have bikes with ABS and it doesn't make them less skilled riders.
[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on 01 January 2010 - 09:34 AM, said:
It is just outdated and I am sure the outcome will be different now. Brakes have vastly improved especialy on sportbikes, Same goes for training, at least her a lot of emphasis is put on braking skills and yes, using the mainly the front to reduce speed. But as technology has moved on, so has training and most riding schools supply ABS equiped bikes to their students and learn how to use that to its full potential. Also all highly trained and skilled professional riders like motorcycle cops and paramedics have bikes with ABS and it doesn't make them less skilled riders.
True... machine technology has always improved ahead of most riders
ability... but if you run a current motorcycle school like Keith Code
does you will note that riders still make the same mistakes today as
they have in the past even thought the equipment is far better...
According to Keith Code equipment is over 20mph faster than it was 13
years ago but student lap times have only improved 1.0 to 2.0 seconds
on the average... compared to a racers typical lap time improvement of
8.0 to 10 seconds for comparable equipment...
So to ride in harmony with the latest machine technology you must ante
up money for some serious instructions and then hone those skills on
each and ever ride...
[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on 01 January 2010 - 09:34 AM, said:
Also all highly trained and skilled professional riders like motorcycle cops and paramedics have bikes with ABS and it doesn't make them less skilled riders.
True... it doesn't make them less skilled but it doesn't say they had
a voice during the purchasing of a department's vehicle either... now
a days a manager would be daft not to seek the departments panel of
paid lawyers as to which safety features a department equips their
paid riders or not...
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 01 January 2010 - 11:52 AM, said:
So to ride in harmony with the latest machine technology you must ante
up money for some serious instructions...
Aha! So, after almost 10 pages, maybe we've finally found the answer: If you can find a training class for less than the cost of ABS, go for it. If ABS is cheaper than the training, get the ABS... :goofy:
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 18 December 2009 - 08:00 PM, said:
Quote Rossi:
"I was a bit wide at Turn 1 and in order to get back on the racing line I moved too far left and ended up braking on a dirty part of the track, [i]as soon as I leaned the bike to the right, it dropped."
Sounds like the world's most talented rider, who makes $41 million a year to threshold brake on a regular basis, made a mistake. Why can't a guy like that just be 100% focused all the time ? Maybe he was thinking about asking for a salary increase...
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 01 January 2010 - 09:52 AM, said:
[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on 01 January 2010 - 09:34 AM, said:
It is just outdated and I am sure the outcome will be different now. Brakes have vastly improved especialy on sportbikes, Same goes for training, at least her a lot of emphasis is put on braking skills and yes, using the mainly the front to reduce speed. But as technology has moved on, so has training and most riding schools supply ABS equiped bikes to their students and learn how to use that to its full potential. Also all highly trained and skilled professional riders like motorcycle cops and paramedics have bikes with ABS and it doesn't make them less skilled riders.
True... machine technology has always improved ahead of most riders
ability... but if you run a current motorcycle school like Keith Code
does you will note that riders still make the same mistakes today as
they have in the past even thought the equipment is far better...
According to Keith Code equipment is over 20mph faster than it was 13
years ago but student lap times have only improved 1.0 to 2.0 seconds
on the average... compared to a racers typical lap time improvement of
8.0 to 10 seconds for comparable equipment...
So to ride in harmony with the latest machine technology you must ante
up money for some serious instructions and then hone those skills on
each and ever ride...
who is this keith code you speak of? please elaborate...
[image: View Post]Baketech, on 13 January 2010 - 05:08 AM, said:
Quote
you still need proper brake training...
Judging by the number of people that have said that in this thread, I think it's reasonably safe to say we all agree on that particular point...
Sure, but why start going by the overwhelming bias of the responses all of the sudden? Seems to me that the jury on whether "ABS is worth it" is still out. :goofy:
Interesting stuff from Bosch: eABS also acts as a combined braking system like Honda DCBS but by use of electro hydraulic actuators.
Quote
If the rider only applies the front brake, the system additionally applies the rear brake, and vice versa. Measuring the rider's brake input and other parameters such as the speed, the system calculates the optimal brake force distribution in every braking situation.
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 25 January 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:
[image: View Post]dirtbag, on 22 January 2010 - 04:08 PM, said:
super interesting column in Feb Motorcyclist by Keith Code.
Guess they are going to use the new bmw1000rr at the california superbike school. t.c, abs and all. here's a quote:
"This is the future. Welcome to it."
:wheel:
Keith Code will teach you thresh hold braking skills where you won't need silly ABS...
I think what Keith Code is Impling is that its the future and far superior....
Obviously you did not go read any of the articles I posted..
I'm selling my VFR now to buy one a 600rr with abs to try it. Since you can pick a NEW one up for 8k or less for a 09... Planning on tracking it. ID LOVE A BMW R1000SS but my wife might kill me iff I bought a 16k play toy...If I don't like it I'll buy a new VFR with the button shifter :beer:
[image: View Post]GGray, on 25 January 2010 - 07:40 PM, said:
I think what Keith Code is Impling is that its the future and far superior....
True... machine technology has always improved ahead of most riders
ability... but what Keith Code will teach you is that riders still make the
same mistakes today as they have in the past even thought the
equipment is far better...
According to Keith Code equipment is over 20mph faster than it was 13
years ago but student lap times have only improved 1.0 to 2.0 seconds
on the average... compared to a racers typical lap time improvement of
8.0 to 10 seconds for comparable equipment...
So to ride in harmony with the latest machine technology you must ante
up money for some serious instructions and then hone those skills on
each and ever ride...
