Has anyone thought of the possibility of a run away on the 7th gen like the present Toyota problem??
All vehicles have an ignition switch that can reign in the savage beast, on a motorcycle
we also have that big red button, if one has the presence of mind to use it.
In a Prius it's a scary thought but on a high performance bike is there time to react?
Perhaps Honda thought about it, does the 7th Gen throttle have a cable back up ?
Pull in the clutch? ok on the standard model, what about on the auto clutch?
Just a thought.
I wouldn't be too worried about it. As long as we have had electronic fuel injection, technically we have always been at the mercy of something "solid-state" controlling our speed. Even when you had a physical throttle cable, you were still counting on an ECU to deliver some specified amount of fuel. It, or an injector, could've flubbed that just as easily as a sensor on a drive/ride-by-wire system, right?
FWIW, VW has been using drive-by-wire for at least 10 years, and on my old Jetta, it's about the only thing that hasn't failed. :goofy:
I think that all motor vehicles should have kill switches(as stated above).... Problem solved.
There are people that use their KS about every time they stop.... If something goes wrong they'll have that motor dead in a second.... It's a good practice.
[image: View Post]SilverVee, on 12 March 2010 - 11:36 PM, said:
Has anyone thought of the possibility of a run away on the 7th gen like the present Toyota problem??
All vehicles have an ignition switch that can reign in the savage beast, on a motorcycle
we also have that big red button, if one has the presence of mind to use it.
In a Prius it's a scary thought but on a high performance bike is there time to react?
Perhaps Honda thought about it, does the 7th Gen throttle have a cable back up ?
Pull in the clutch? ok on the standard model, what about on the auto clutch?
Just a thought.
I believe we have that big red button because early bikes had throttle sticking issues and they were eventually added to combat those issues and became standard... I make sure and use mine every time I shut it off just to kind of make it a habit... However, as long as Toyota doesn't get into the bike business, we're probably all okay... :rolleyes:
Good point, but bikes don't have power brakes and power steering....cars do.....better driver training is what is needed MOST of all...what it takes to get a license her in the states is bare minimum in my opinion. Driving schools where they teach you more defensive driving techniques are highly valuable....plus they are fun!!!!!
[image: View Post]SilverVee, on 12 March 2010 - 11:36 PM, said:
Has anyone thought of the possibility of a run away on the 7th gen like the present Toyota problem??
All vehicles have an ignition switch that can reign in the savage beast, on a motorcycle
we also have that big red button, if one has the presence of mind to use it.
In a Prius it's a scary thought but on a high performance bike is there time to react?
Perhaps Honda thought about it, does the 7th Gen throttle have a cable back up ?
Pull in the clutch? ok on the standard model, what about on the auto clutch?
Just a thought.
car and driver just did a test with a camry v6:
70-0mph,closed throttle: 174ft
70-0mph,full throttle : 190ft
do you really think there are runaway cars taking off at full throttle? apply brakes=stop.
does anyone remember audi's unintended acceleration debacle from years ago??? do we forget this easily?
Having had a traditional cable get stuck and cause an acceleration issue that ended in my wife T-boning a parked car (actually stuck my bike IN the car), I will say that it can happen no matter what.
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 13 March 2010 - 09:43 AM, said:
Having had a traditional cable get stuck and cause an acceleration issue that ended in my wife T-boning a parked car (actually stuck my bike IN the car), I will say that it can happen no matter what.
thats a good point.. a month ago i sprained my wrist when i fell on the ice here in DC.. ..the swelling made my FINGERS either open or closed!! like a freaking robot!took a day to get the swelling back where i could move normally.
As long as people are traveling in or on machines, they will get hurt from time to time. People that are idiots will get hurt more often. But, they will never accept accountability for their own faulty actions. They call a lawyer..... :rolleyes:
Can't one just turn off the ignition on the Prius? or corolla?
I watched a news item two nights ago that a police cruiser was used to stop a prius (got in front of it). The driver of the prius said the brakes weren't stopping it.
Am I an idiot? Isn't that what the funny shaped doo-dad that is used to turn ON the vehicle for? To shut it OFF too?
Take it out of gear (if automatic, put it in neutral) and turn the key one position? Is it that hard?
/threadjack
I wish it was so easy. To all those people that say,"just put the transmission in park,reverse,neutral,blow the engine,stand on the brakes,steer to the side of the road," et.all,
you can't. Most of these cars have advanced (?) fly by wire-sensors in the place of actual physical control off driver inputs. There is no shift linkage,brake linkage etc. in their
place are sensors that tells the different systems what to do with the driver's input.
You think that the new 1200 VFR has a throttle cable-look again. The new BMW RR ?
These systems do work perfectly, in a true fly-by-wire environment-fighter aircraft. The Department of War spends just a little bit more money on R&D and manufacturing of their systems than does Toyota.
Get used to these systems-they are the future of motorcycles,too. People love old motorcycles , you can fix them-that will not change.
[image: View Post]y2kvfr, on 13 March 2010 - 10:19 AM, said:
While on this...thread jack on
Can't one just turn off the ignition on the Prius? or corolla?
I watched a news item two nights ago that a police cruiser was used to stop a prius (got in front of it). The driver of the prius said the brakes weren't stopping it.
Am I an idiot? Isn't that what the funny shaped doo-dad that is used to turn ON the vehicle for? To shut it OFF too?
Take it out of gear (if automatic, put it in neutral) and turn the key one position? Is it that hard?
/threadjack
From what I understand, the police car never touched the Prius...they just used their intercom to tell him to use the brake and the E-brake at the same time, and I think to shut off the ignition. From what I heard, this guy spent a long time on the phone with 911 while the car was going 94 MPH, but refused to try to shift into neutral as he was "afraid to take his hand off the wheel"....while he was talking on the phone :unsure:
IMO people will take the chance to blame Toyota for their lack of attention that resulted in a wreck...."the throttle wouldn't disengage, honest.....and has anyone seen my razor?"
Do you guys really still believe anything that comes out of US media just like that?? The whole thing was fake. There is nothing to worry about stuck throttles and that.
[image: View Post]carlitos92, on 13 March 2010 - 12:06 AM, said:
I wouldn't be too worried about it. As long as we have had electronic fuel injection, technically we have always been at the mercy of something "solid-state" controlling our speed.
Bike requires air, extra fuel without throttle opening nearly all gasoline engines ever put on the road = won't run any faster, may actually flood and die. Throttle cable to throttle butterflies on the VFR 6th gen and before. The situation you're talking about is called a "Diesel".
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 13 March 2010 - 10:26 AM, said:
IMO people will take the chance to blame Toyota for their lack of attention that resulted in a wreck...."the throttle wouldn't disengage, honest.....and has anyone seen my razor?"
[image: View Post]y2kvfr, on 13 March 2010 - 10:19 AM, said:
While on this...thread jack on
Can't one just turn off the ignition on the Prius? or corolla?
I watched a news item two nights ago that a police cruiser was used to stop a prius (got in front of it). The driver of the prius said the brakes weren't stopping it.
Am I an idiot? Isn't that what the funny shaped doo-dad that is used to turn ON the vehicle for? To shut it OFF too?
Take it out of gear (if automatic, put it in neutral) and turn the key one position? Is it that hard?
/threadjack
As a former Prius owner ( a second Gen just like the "San Diego" Prius), its very simple, just hold the power button for 3 seconds, done. Or better yet, just push the shifter over into nuetral. Did it once on accident, long story :blush: .
[image: View Post]huskysooner, on 13 March 2010 - 12:34 PM, said:
So you won't fly Airbus A320 or the Boeing 777, either? (Admittedly, those have multiple redundancies).
There are a lot more aircraft flying with a FADEC than just those two. Honestly I think a fly by wire setup on something that long is safer than mechanical linkages, and you're right that these things have been tested and engineered for safety levels that a motorcycle company could only cringe at.
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 13 March 2010 - 10:26 AM, said:
IMO people will take the chance to blame Toyota for their lack of attention that resulted in a wreck...."the throttle wouldn't disengage, honest.....and has anyone seen my razor?"
that is... awesome! wonder if she got razor burn? :blink:
All I know is, next time I'm pulled over for speeding in my Tundra I'm pleading stuck throttle. :fing02:
Personally I think this Toyota broo-ha-ha is much ado...Apply the foot brake; apply the parking(emergency) brake; shift to neutral; kill the ignition. There are a number of options to deal with a runaway throttle - anyone who can't conjure up the intellect to apply at least one of them in an emergency shouldn't be driving. :comp13:
I've owned Toyotas for the past 15 years and never had a problem.
In the latest story they did later say that when the police told the guy to stand on the brakes, pull e-brake and turn off the ignition, the car miraculously came to a stop :idea3: DUUUUHHH.
[image: View Post]Bent, on 13 March 2010 - 01:50 PM, said:
I thought this was a MOTORCYCLE forum...... :warranty:
Last I heard, Toyota doesn't make motorcycles. :wheel:
[image: View Post]creggur, on 13 March 2010 - 02:31 PM, said:
Apply the foot brake; apply the parking(emergency) brake; shift to neutral; kill the ignition. There are a number of options to deal with a runaway throttle - anyone who can't conjure up the intellect to apply at least one of them in an emergency shouldn't be driving.
Posted Image
My wife and I were watching the news the other night when the San Diego Prius story came on. I quizzed her about what would she do if by some strange chance her car did the uncontrolled acceleration. She knows to stand on the brake, apply the E-brake, shift into neutral, etc.
Quiz your loved one and make sure they would know what to do in an emergency such as this.
[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 13 March 2010 - 03:07 PM, said:
[image: View Post]creggur, on 13 March 2010 - 02:31 PM, said:
Apply the foot brake; apply the parking(emergency) brake; shift to neutral; kill the ignition. There are a number of options to deal with a runaway throttle - anyone who can't conjure up the intellect to apply at least one of them in an emergency shouldn't be driving.
Posted Image
My wife and I were watching the news the other night when the San Diego Prius story came on. I quizzed her about what would she do if by some strange chance her car did the uncontrolled acceleration. She knows to stand on the brake, apply the E-brake, shift into neutral, etc.
Quiz your loved one and make sure they would know what to do in an emergency such as this.
Of note here: My wife's car has push-button start/stop ignition. It requires you to hold down the Engine Stop button for three seconds to kill the engine going down the highway - I don't know if all makes work this way. It's an Audi, though, and after the UA incident they had in the 80's, touching the brake automatically kills the throttle. VWs are the same...
[image: View Post]pres589, on 13 March 2010 - 11:12 AM, said:
Bike requires air, extra fuel without throttle opening nearly all gasoline engines ever put on the road = won't run any faster, may actually flood and die. Throttle cable to throttle butterflies on the VFR 6th gen and before. The situation you're talking about is called a "Diesel".
Fine, but common rail (solenoid) technology has been available for over 10 years on passenger Diesels, and those aren't ramming people off the road, either. :goofy:
[image: View Post]Rice, on 13 March 2010 - 02:37 PM, said:
I've owned Toyotas for the past 15 years and never had a problem.
In the latest story they did later say that when the police told the guy to stand on the brakes, pull e-brake and turn off the ignition, the car miraculously came to a stop :idea3: DUUUUHHH.
He did say in an interview that "he was afraid the car would flip if he put it in neutral at such high speed." Makes you wonder if people really understand the fundamentals of driving.
if it was mycar.. i would just go faster!!! petal to metal! the gas in gonna run out sooner or later.. besides how fast can a flat black ( the fastest color) chevy astro painted go..??? :goofy:
these posts make me want to put points on my vfr.. or a magneto and just trash all the wiring
[image: View Post]PLCGuy, on 13 March 2010 - 12:32 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Monk, on 13 March 2010 - 12:41 AM, said:
I think that all motor vehicles should have kill switches(as stated above).... Problem solved.
They do, it's called the ign switch
I agree that would be the 1st option..... A couple of things are at question. Things like power steering, power brakes. I understand that if the ignition is on, the power st/br's work, but with a kill switch you can stop the motor without losing the rest of the cars functions, ie; power steering/brakes.
Another thing is that kill switches are usually placed where you can reach them without taking your hands off the wheel.
I think most of us know how to deal with this stuff, but I think we're(I'm)really talking about the average auto driver.
I know one thing, if it is a load of bunk, it sure helped the American auto market. You think maybe this was done by our auto industry :pinocchio:
There is nothing fundamentally wrong and dangerous with ride by wire throttles. What is dangerous is the attitude of the engineers who design the system
Case in point: Boeing vs. Airbus.
A number of Airbus crashes over the years have been caused by the computer overriding the pilot. Something goes wrong (for whatever reason), pilot goes into basic skills mode and yanks on the stick. The Airbus A320 in particular was notorious for ignoring the pilot with an "I know better" attidude, and there is at least one example of an A320 treating the pilots control inputs as incorrect and causing the plane to pitch up and down like a rollercoaster.
Now let's look at Boeing. Their aircraft also have fly by wire systems, but the engineering that goes into the software always allows pilot ovveride. Something goes wrong, pilot yanks on the stick, and the plane does what he expects it to do.
Bikes and cars are the same - and it seems in some cases the engineers haven't allowed enough human override into the equation.
[image: View Post]kaldek, on 14 March 2010 - 12:38 AM, said:
There is nothing fundamentally wrong and dangerous with ride by wire throttles. What is dangerous is the attitude of the engineers who design the system
Case in point: Boeing vs. Airbus.
A number of Airbus crashes over the years have been caused by the computer overriding the pilot. Something goes wrong (for whatever reason), pilot goes into basic skills mode and yanks on the stick. The Airbus A320 in particular was notorious for ignoring the pilot with an "I know better" attidude, and there is at least one example of an A320 treating the pilots control inputs as incorrect and causing the plane to pitch up and down like a rollercoaster.
Now let's look at Boeing. Their aircraft also have fly by wire systems, but the engineering that goes into the software always allows pilot ovveride. Something goes wrong, pilot yanks on the stick, and the plane does what he expects it to do.
Bikes and cars are the same - and it seems in some cases the engineers haven't allowed enough human override into the equation.
the one system you are forgetting about is still a mechanical system with electronic control. that would be the brake system which utilizes a mechanical redundancy if the abs system fails.
and let't not forget the fact that the brakes, by inherent characteristics, will outpower the engine.
what the real issue, i believe, is not the engineers or the systems they design from an engineering standpoint, but the users inabilities to confront any abnormal situation and react accordingly.
what causes these unintended acceleration issues? no one, i repeat, no one has been able to determine what the causes are that toyota is currently experiencing. historically the issues have almost always been ergonomic issues such as interfering floormats and mistaken pedal application causing a panic reaction where the person driving is 'struck' with fear and is unable and unwilling to lift off the pedal they believe is the brake.
knee jerk reactions among the media and general public do nothing to solve these issues. maybe 60 minutes can rig a toyota to run away for the cameras... just like they did with audi.
Hey Kaldek, you are so right. I have been trying to say that these systems(on the Toyotas) are not as simple as turning the switch off, hitting the brakes etc. They must have used Air-Bus route the systems take over-not the driver. In some of these cars there are no direct mechanical links to the systems that they control - only sensors. If it ain't Boeing I ain't going.
Fly by wire systems are the future of fast bikes and I will want one-you 7th gen people are tasting a link to the future of ever more complex bikes.
Gotta go ride before spring break traffic takes over. What time is it ,anyway?
[image: View Post]texasvfr, on 14 March 2010 - 11:06 AM, said:
Hey Kaldek, you are so right. I have been trying to say that these systems(on the Toyotas) are not as simple as turning the switch off, hitting the brakes etc. They must have used Air-Bus route the systems take over-not the driver. In some of these cars there are no direct mechanical links to the systems that they control - only sensors. If it ain't Boeing I ain't going.
Fly by wire systems are the future of fast bikes and I will want one-you 7th gen people are tasting a link to the future of ever more complex bikes.
Gotta go ride before spring break traffic takes over. What time is it ,anyway?
[image: View Post]texasvfr, on 14 March 2010 - 11:06 AM, said:
Hey Kaldek, you are so right. I have been trying to say that these systems(on the Toyotas) are not as simple as turning the switch off, hitting the brakes etc. They must have used Air-Bus route the systems take over-not the driver. In some of these cars there are no direct mechanical links to the systems that they control - only sensors. If it ain't Boeing I ain't going.
Fly by wire systems are the future of fast bikes and I will want one-you 7th gen people are tasting a link to the future of ever more complex bikes.
Gotta go ride before spring break traffic takes over. What time is it ,anyway?
I've got no particular beef with the system being software only - just as long as the software always allows full human override. In the case of cars or bikes, this needs to be:
Hitting the kill switch or ignition ALWAYS stops the engine, no matter WHAT
High brake pressure applied by the rider/driver ALWAYS cuts the throttle, no matter WHAT
If the throttle won't cut, the engine must STOP, no matter WHAT
Brakes must NOT require engine vacuum to work at 100% power
The most visible Toyota fault in the media here is the American lady whose car had a runaway event, and even after she managed to drag it to a stop after many kilometres, the car wanted to go full throttle when her husband started it up again to get on the towtruck bed. To me, this was likely an electrical fault (like a frayed wire or something), but the PROBLEM here is that Toyota probably didn't run tests to see what happened when electrical faults occur. It's all about unexpected behaviour in abnormal circumstances.
Here's an interesting comparison (from a technology perspective). There are computer chips whose sole job it is to perform encryption and authentication. These chips have secret "keys" stored inside them which must be protected, so the chips can't be disassembled without destroying themselves, and they will NEVER divulge the keys.
Guess what: somebody managed to get the keys divulged from one of these chips. How did they do it? They fed the chip bad power, with rapidly changing voltage and microsecond breaks in the power feed. And what do you know, the chip behaved in a way its designers did not expect and allowed the researcher to work out what the key values were.
So, is it possible to perform every single possible test for every single abnormal event? No! But it IS possible to detect abnormal behaviour and initiate some form of default safety fallback.
Let me tell you about a HMI (human machine interface, think touch screen) that was driven by a PLC (programmable logic controller) on a large piece of equipment I service. I was having a sporadic fault condition and had hooked up a laptop to the PLC to ease troubleshooting (using the laptop I could see when individual rungs of the program were made and what their output was).
Anyway.... I noticed an odd rung... that ended with a text output to to the HMI. It turns out that some programmer for this machine had buried some code in the program that would display the classic "All your base are belong to us" for a few seconds on the HMI screen when a series of buttons were touched on the HMI in a certain order. This series of buttons would never be pressed in that order under normal running conditions.
I came to the conclussion some engineer for the company had a business major for a boss who had no idea what he did. I suspect he put the line in to entertain himself or maybe it was some kind of inside joke.
My point.... don't rule out some demented engineer in Japan who wrote a subroutine that only gets thrown into the loop under very specific, rare conditions. I doubt that is the case, but there are people out there with so much brain power that they have a hard time keeping themselves entertained.
[image: View Post]Lee 2002, on 14 March 2010 - 06:06 PM, said:
Let me tell you about a HMI (human machine interface, think touch screen) that was driven by a PLC (programmable logic controller) on a large piece of equipment I service. I was having a sporadic fault condition and had hooked up a laptop to the PLC to ease troubleshooting (using the laptop I could see when individual rungs of the program were made and what their output was).
Anyway.... I noticed an odd rung... that ended with a text output to to the HMI. It turns out that some programmer for this machine had buried some code in the program that would display the classic "All your base are belong to us" for a few seconds on the HMI screen when a series of buttons were touched on the HMI in a certain order. This series of buttons would never be pressed in that order under normal running conditions.
I came to the conclussion some engineer for the company had a business major for a boss who had no idea what he did. I suspect he put the line in to entertain himself or maybe it was some kind of inside joke.
My point.... don't rule out some demented engineer in Japan who wrote a subroutine that only gets thrown into the loop under very specific, rare conditions. I doubt that is the case, but there are people out there with so much brain power that they have a hard time keeping themselves entertained.
These are not "demented" engineers, this type of rogue code is called an "easter egg" and happens more often than we are aware of for the bemusement of the sw engineer. The classic easter egg was Excel 97 which had MS Flight
Simulator embedded and could be activated with a specific sequence of keystrokes. I tried it way back when, it was cool!
[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 14 March 2010 - 08:57 PM, said:
These are not "demented" engineers, this type of rogue code is called an "easter egg" and happens more often than we are aware of for the bemusement of the sw engineer.
It's "demented" when your Toyota accelerates to 100 mph and the throttle won't close because you were driving at 53mph and the outside air temp was 72, and you had 3/4 of a tank of gas, and the radio was on, and you hit the right turn signal. Bingo! The magic combination was hit and you're on the ride of your life... or death. That's demented, and that is the possiblility I was refering to, not my "All your base are belong to us" example. It would be very easy for a demented engineer to hide that sort of subroutine in a program without enough management oversight.
I had a throttle cable stick on my 88 Riviera it was a scary experience, lucky for me I know how cars work and threw it into neutral, then neutral dropped it a few times and limped into a parking lot. I opened the hood wiggled the cable loose and drove off, it never happened again. the group that died in the Lexus rental had a fancy push button start and couldn't figure out how to shut it off. yet another thing that I'll add to my list of "never buy a car with..."
Heard on CNN this morning that engineers from the DOT and from Toyota tested the latest runaway Prius and failed to reproduce the runaway condition or to find anything else that may have caused it.
The plot thickens.
And about the runaway Lexus...
Here is one story:
Quote
Rhonda [Smith] explained that once her Lexus ES350 surged and began accelerating uncontrollably on October 12, 2006, she attempted several times to punch the start/stop ignition while standing on the brakes � both without results. Eventually after Rhonda navigated the freeway for six miles she was able to regain control and bring the vehicle to a stop
And later in the same story:
Quote
The Smith�s sold the car after the incident with only 3,000 miles on the odometer, and now NHTSA tracked the vehicle down with 30,000 miles on the odometer. The new owners reported no instances of unintended acceleration since acquiring the vehicle from the Smith�s.
Full story HERE
I smell a huge load of BS here.
Even if the engine did not shut off and the driver did not have the presence of mind to engage neutral, that car has excellent brakes that are capable of overpowering the engine and the car's momentum.
I'm not passing judgment as to BS or not but we must take a breath and understand that as a motorcycle rider we have all had close calls in the past and have learned from them. Many times I have run a scenario over in my head much like an after action review. Playing out how I could/should have handled the situation. There have been many threads here where it is posted "I need to practice (Fill in blank) after reading a report of a near hit or wreck. Most of us prepare and practice to keep our butts out of trouble. As a Paramedic Instructor I run students through simulation labs to sharpen their skills. As a rider, I practice panic stops and low speed maneuvers. I have yet to hear of any reports stuck throttles, shaved ...., or distracted drivers that say "I practice evasive maneuvers just in the case this happens". Most cage drivers get in the car, buckle the seatbelt, and start the engine and drive. Oblivious to the "what if" question.
Look back at all the notes of concern to those of us that have been unfortunate to have wrecked. The big buzz word is ATGATT and we rally to congratulate each other for its use. How many times have you seen a posting here about quality gear on sell? Even BR gave an excellent report of his crash and the gear he used prompting many of us to review ours.
We are an elite group, we preach and practice safety. We prepare and motivate each other for the �what if�. My question is how do we spread this word to the world of cagers?????
[image: View Post]kaldek, on 14 March 2010 - 05:25 PM, said:
High brake pressure applied by the rider/driver ALWAYS cuts the throttle, no matter WHAT
I would not want to drive a motorcycle that would cut throttle when the brake was touched. Even a beginning rider should be able to tell you why that idea would be WAY wrong. The point where your "high brake pressure" would chop the throttle is a more difficult issue. How is this "high brake pressure" measured? How much brake pressure is "high?" It doesn't take much to lock up the brakes on a motorcycle in some situations. Right now there isn't a "brake pressure measuring device" in any bike without ABS and I wonder if many of the ABS bikes actually measure the brake pressure being applied, or just monitor wheel speed/locking and cut back on braking when that happens. It sounds like such a device to monitor for "high brake pressure" would just increase the complexity of a brake system and just make it all the more likely to fail when you really need it. I sure wouldn't want to be required to have ABS on my bikes, or have this "high brake pressure" monitoring device complicating my aging vehicle's maintenance needs in the future. I'll just pull in the clutch in this situation. Oh, that's right the VFR12000 doesn't have one of those :(
As far as ABS is concerned, it's ok for pavement riding but they become quite the liability the instant the bike rolls off of hard pavement onto loose gravel/dirt. I roll off the hard pavement quite often. I at least demand the ability to shut off the ABS and have it stay off over multiple stops/restarts so I don't have to remember to shut it off again after a pee/water break. Mandating a throttle drop on some theoretical "high brake pressure" is tantamount to mandating ABS since this would almost require ABS to work. I don't want ABS mandated on my vehicle.
Back to brakes and throttle being on at the same time. Maintenance throttle is necessary on a motorcycle while in a corner, and when trail braking is applied or not, you DO NOT WANT the throttle to chop EVER. Chopping the throttle is a worst-case scenario. Basic MSF techniques here folks. Such a system that might decide that the throttle might be "running away" and chop throttle in a corner would scare me more than the thought of a runaway throttle. Please don't put this on MY bike.
This is the problem when we have lawmakers in committee designing bikes/cars instead of the engineers...
And as far as scary scenarios go this is my nightmare. When it comes down to it I believe that the solution lies in rider/driver education. If you have people who believe that their vehicle will 'flip' when the transmission is switched to neutral and won't take their hands off the wheel to control the gear selector in a car (all the while talking on a cell phone???) I think that points to education being the place where we have failed.
To me, this whole Toyota issue has two parts:
Driver Error with grossly under-skilled and under-trained operators.
Government-owned Automaker using Congress and the Bully Pulpit of the Press to libel the competition.
Way back when I used to borrow a '61 Olds. One of the motor mounts was broken, and if you hit the accellerator a little too hard, the engine would sit right up from the torque and pull the throttle linkage to the floor, and that big V-8 would take off and scream like a Banshee. Had to shut her off to gain control. Not too bad in straight-line traffic, but a real sphincter puckerer in a corner.
My wife (then girlfriend) borrowed it one day and it happened in a corner and she side-swiped another vehicle. Scared her to death.
Why didn't I have the motor mount replaced? Well, several mechanics looked at the problem and could not determine the cause of the unwanted acceleration. So finally I started snooping around and found the broken mount. Replaced it myself and never again had that problem. And that's back when most mechanics were really good at their job!
No complicated electronics or computers to blame it on back then. Just a basic mechanical problem.
[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 15 March 2010 - 10:36 AM, said:
To me, this whole Toyota issue has two parts:
Driver Error with grossly under-skilled and under-trained operators.
Government-owned Automaker using Congress and the Bully Pulpit of the Press to libel the competition.
This pretty much sums it up for me.
Of course, the jury is still out on whether the runaway incidents are due to manufacturing defects. Correction. Whether EVERY incident is a result of manufacturing defects.
Admitting driver error is like saying that it's "our" fault. We certainly can not have that now, can we?
Why don't we just blame the big bad corporation and help out our ailing car companies as an added bonus :woohoo:
[image: View Post]Rice, on 15 March 2010 - 01:22 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 15 March 2010 - 10:36 AM, said:
To me, this whole Toyota issue has two parts:
Driver Error with grossly under-skilled and under-trained operators.
Government-owned Automaker using Congress and the Bully Pulpit of the Press to libel the competition.
This pretty much sums it up for me.
Of course, the jury is still out on whether the runaway incidents are due to manufacturing defects. Correction. Whether EVERY incident is a result of manufacturing defects.
Admitting driver error is like saying that it's "our" fault. We certainly can not have that now, can we?
Why don't we just blame the big bad corporation and help out our ailing car companies as an added bonus :woohoo:
I'm actually on board with your thinking here. Just didn't want to be the first one to break out the tinfoil hat. :bliss:
[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 15 March 2010 - 10:36 AM, said:
I wonder if many of the ABS bikes actually measure the brake pressure being applied, or just monitor wheel speed/locking and cut back on braking when that happens.
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As far as ABS is concerned, it's ok for pavement riding but they become quite the liability the instant the bike rolls off of hard pavement onto loose gravel/dirt. I roll off the hard pavement quite often. I at least demand the ability to shut off the ABS and have it stay off over multiple stops/restarts so I don't have to remember to shut it off again after a pee/water break. Mandating a throttle drop on some theoretical "high brake pressure" is tantamount to mandating ABS since this would almost require ABS to work. I don't want ABS mandated on my vehicle.
I'm sorry, but why do you want the ability to lock your wheels on gravel? This seems like the best time to have ABS to me.
Back on topic, I once had a throttle cable stick on my 69 Plymouth Roadrunner. This is a car with a 383 cubic inch engine, a slight performance cam, not much turning radius, and really crappy brakes. Oh, and when this happened I was in a parking lot with only about 40 feet until some trees.
Even the poor brakes and were able to slow the big torquey engine to the point that too much air and the resistance of the wheels not turning were able to stall the engine.
I can't imagine the 60 hp gasoline engine on a Prius would be too much for the brakes. I know the brakes are hooked up to an electric generator somehow, I wonder if that is part of the problem? Or if the electric motor is also pushing the car in this situation?
the same article i mentioned earlier has a roush stage 3 mustang with 540 hp braking from 70mph in 246ft with the throttle held wide open.
this is one of the only articles i can find that has actually gone out and tried to test real world scenarios. if your toyota went to full throttle for some reason, and you applied the brake, you would stop.
but then again, the bandwagon has alot of seats... :beatdeadhorse: