OIL

Ok Guys its an oil question and I know there is plenty of info in here but nobody answered a specific item I was looking for.
Is synthetic oil like molbil 1 ok to run for wet clutch operation; it does not mention anything about it on the bottle. other non syn oils
specifically say for wet clutches. your thoughts would be nice.

[image: View Post]v4pilot, on 14 June 2010 - 06:19 AM, said:

Ok Guys its an oil question and I know there is plenty of info in here but nobody answered a specific item I was looking for.
Is synthetic oil like molbil 1 ok to run for wet clutch operation; it does not mention anything about it on the bottle. other non syn oils
specifically say for wet clutches. your thoughts would be nice.

I run Mobil 1 15W-50 in mine and have for 35,000 miles. Also run it in the track bike and the VTR I used to have. It is the only one WITHOUT the "Energy Conserving" marking. At one time I heard that additive package is what causes the clutch problems.

http://www.bardahl.ca/images/API.GIF

Oh, just to be clear, it still has the API circle, just not the Energy Conserving wording in the bottom portion.   :fing02:

I only use JASO MA certified oil.

The only oil I have found that I can buy in bulk is the Shelkl Rotella T6 full synthetic.

I care mostly about shear strength.

There is a round label on the back of each bottle of oil, (I believe it is called the API serviice label).  Just be sure the oil you are using does not say "energy conserving" in this label and you should be fine.

If you really want to be sure, buy motorcycle specific oil.  Mobil One makes a fully synthetic oil called "Racing 4T" for motorcycles that is designed for wet clutch systems.  Other oil manufacturers, such as Castrol, do this as well.

I just did an oil change after picking up four quarts of Mobil One 4T at the local Honda dealership. Also picked up a few other things. When I got home, I looked at the receipt and the Mobil One 4T was $13.xx per quart!!! Holy shiste!!! Unless anyone else advises against it, I'm switching to either regular synthetic Mobil One (not 4T) 15W-50, or Rotella T6. The bulk Rotella T6 was about $5.00 a quart at Walmart last week after a $20.00 off coupon.

Just use the Rotella T synthetic, or any other heavy duty oil (Chevron Delo 400, Castrol Tection Extra - all mostly intended for diesel) and call it good.  I've use it in multiple bikes and always had great oil sample analysis results.  There's no need to pay the ridiculous prices for "moto-specific" oils.  The HD oils perform VERY well and are relatively cheap.  Just get whichever is on sale at Wal-Mart and rest assured your bike is getting high quality oil.

[image: View Post]v4pilot, on 14 June 2010 - 06:19 AM, said:

Ok Guys its an oil question and I know there is plenty of info in here but nobody answered a specific item I was looking for.
Is synthetic oil like molbil 1 ok to run for wet clutch operation; it does not mention anything about it on the bottle. other non syn oils
specifically say for wet clutches. your thoughts would be nice.

Do you know why one oil shifts better than another, its the way it effects the clutch, less grippy oil equals slicker shifting, cause the clutch has less drag while its disengaged.

The most gripiest clutch oil, is probably 15w40 Rotella , I hate the crap

But any Ma rated synthetic, Meets a Frictional gate for proof of wet clutch performance.


With the temps in the 90's and the vfr averging around 210 degrees, I've been wanting to do a Harley trick, THe New REDLINE mc oil. and see if it drops the averages down on water temps, via dropping oil temp.  

I;ve seen too many Harley riders saying the redline mc oil is dropping their oil temps alot, so I'd like to see for myself

[image: View Post]superfuzz, on 14 June 2010 - 09:23 PM, said:

Just use the Rotella T synthetic, or any other heavy duty oil (Chevron Delo 400, Castrol Tection Extra - all mostly intended for diesel) and call it good.  I've use it in multiple bikes and always had great oil sample analysis results.  There's no need to pay the ridiculous prices for "moto-specific" oils.  The HD oils perform VERY well and are relatively cheap.  Just get whichever is on sale at Wal-Mart and rest assured your bike is getting high quality oil.

+1 what superfuzz said, and, comrade v4pilot;   :fing02:
Where's yours my man?

Dang...this IS a real oil thread!!   :fing02:

[image: View Post]dendron, on 14 June 2010 - 10:05 PM, said:

Dang...this IS a real oil thread!!   :fing02:

yaaay! I personally like Newman's Own.
[image: Posted Image]

Comparing my CBR1000RR and VFR service manuals, they basically say this:

JASO 903/MT rated MA or higher
API rated SG or higher

Any motor oil meeting one or both of those is considered fine, as long as it's not "energy conserving".

They both stipulate 10w40.  However it can be hard to find 10w40 in in some areas (usually due to local climate) as a fully synthetic oil with either API SG or JASO MA.  So, depending on your climate, 15w40 or 15w50 will be fine if that is all you can get your hands on.

Remember that the first number is to do with how the oil works when cold.  If it doesn't get below freezing (and I mean -10 centigrade or 18 fahrenheit) where you live, you just don't need 10w oil.

Amsoil MC specific motor oil in my bike.  Its all I use: "Also, AMSOIL motorcycle oils are specifically formulated without any friction modifiers for compatibility with wet clutch packs. AMSOIL ATF lubricants are also designed with specific coefficient of friction values to meet the requirements of each and every specification that it not only meets, but far exceeds. (JASO and MA spec.)

Read more: http://www.smartsynt...#ixzz0qtR0JR7z"
One of my colleagues website regarding Amsoils claims for wet clutch service.

..I'm not only an Amsoil customer, but I'm an Amsoil dealer as well.

[image: View Post]Knife, on 14 June 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

I just did an oil change after picking up four quarts of Mobil 1 T-4 at the local Honda dealership. Also picked up a few other things. When I got home, I looked at the receipt and the Mobil 1 T-4 was $13.xx per quart!!! Holy shiste!!! Unless anyone else advises against it, I'm switching to either regular synthetic Mobil 1 (not T-$) 15W-50, or Rotella T6. The bulk Rotella T6 was about $5.00 a quart at Walmart last week after a $20.00 off coupon.


$19 a gallon at my Wal's.  You buy 3 and you get $20 rebate.  ((19x3)-20)/12=$3.08 and quart.  A hella of a deal for a oil that always tests well in bikes.

http://www.bobistheo.../ubbthreads.php

I should mention, it's not 'certified' JASO MA, Shell just states that it meets the standards for JASO MA.    All the UOA's I've seen for this oil in motorcycles, come out great, better than some 'motorcycle' oils.   Hell, compared to the Mobil 4T, you can change oil twice as often and still pocket $7 a quart!   And frankly some of the UOA's I've read would lead most people to believe the Rotella T-6 is a better oil anyway.

I've been using 10/30 Energy Conserving Mobil 1 since 98 in Mr.RC45
with no clutch slipping due to oil being certified 10% slipperier than
non EC oil... and it's a bike with a tall first gear good for 90mph
that's known to incinerate clutch plates...

Whats confusing the issue is the fact that all motorcycle wet clutches
will reach a point in their life and start to slip... so someone at
some point in time added the EC 10% slipperier oil and got the clutch
to slip... in error the oil was blamed and the "don't use EC Oil" myth
was started... even the manufactures have gone along with the myth and
didn't take the time to sort out the truth...

In short a 10% slippery oil can not defeat a wet clutch... because our
clutches are not within 10% of slipping to begin with...

More evidence to support my conjecture can be found in Sportrider
magazine article "Oils Well That Ends Well?"

http://www.sportride...h/146_0308_oil/

quote Sportrider:
"Can synthetic oils cause my clutch to slip?"

"To answer this in one word: No. Clutch slippage is caused by many
things, but the use of synthetic oil alone is usually not the culprit.
The truth is that some bikes seem to suffer clutch slippage no
matter what oil goes in them, while others run fine with any oil. This
is most likely caused by factors other than the oil, such as the
spring pressure, age and clutch plate materials. If you have
a bike known for clutch problems, you may have to be more selective in
your oil choices. Moly is often blamed for clutch slippage, and it can
have an effect-but moly alone is not the problem. We wish there was a
hard and fast rule to follow, but it is just not that easy. Simply
put, you will have to try an oil and evaluate it. If you experience
slippage with the new oil, and have not had problems before, it may be
the oil. The plates and/or springs could also be worn to the point
that they have finally started to slip. Simply change back to the
previous oil and see what happens. You can also check the test data in
next issue's article to see if that particular oil has a significant
amount of moly. If so, try one that does not have as much moly next time."

"We talked to Mark Junge, Vesrah's Racing representative, who has won
numerous WERA national championships using Vesrah's clutches. He said
that in his years of engine work he has yet to see a slipping clutch
that could be pinned on synthetic motor oil. Junge felt that nearly
every time the clutch was marginal or had worn springs, the new oil
just revealed a problem that already existed."

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 15 June 2010 - 02:43 AM, said:

I've been using 10/30 Energy Conserving Mobil 1 since 98 in Mr.RC45
with no clutch slipping due to oil being certified 10% slipperier than
non EC oil... and it's a bike with a tall first gear good for 90mph
that's known to incinerate clutch plates...

Whats confusing the issue is the fact that all motorcycle wet clutches
will reach a point in their life and start to slip... so someone at
some point in time added the EC 10% slipperier oil and got the clutch
to slip... in error the oil was blamed and the "don't use EC Oil" myth
was started... even the manufactures have gone along with the myth and
didn't take the time to sort out the truth...

In short a 10% slippery oil can not defeat a wet clutch... because our
clutches are not within 10% of slipping to begin with...


This is totally untrue in my experience.  I guess it depends on how you ride your bike -I made this mistake and the slippage was noticible the very first time I rode the bike with the EC oil at higher RPM shifts.

Did a total teardown of the clutch -thinking I might need to replace the plates until I noticed the fiction plates were well within specifications and didn't need to be replaced.  Took a chance and cleaned both friction and drive plates, reassembled with the old parts and put in non EC oil.  Slip was gone.

Yes, EC oil made my plates slip.

YMMV

[image: View Post]Knife, on 14 June 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

I just did an oil change after picking up four quarts of Mobil 1 T-4 at the local Honda dealership. Also picked up a few other things. When I got home, I looked at the receipt and the Mobil 1 T-4 was $13.xx per quart!!! Holy shiste!!! Unless anyone else advises against it, I'm switching to either regular synthetic Mobil 1 (not T-$) 15W-50, or Rotella T6. The bulk Rotella T6 was about $5.00 a quart at Walmart last week after a $20.00 off coupon.


Wow.....it's usually around $9.50 a quart at my local auto parts store.

[image: View Post]johnmark101, on 15 June 2010 - 10:25 AM, said:

Wow.....it's usually around $9.50 a quart at my local auto parts store.


I used to be able to get SuperTech oil for under $1/quart until recently when it's pushing towards $2.   Works for me... :fing02:

[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 15 June 2010 - 10:07 AM, said:

This is totally untrue in my experience.  I guess it depends on how you ride your bike -I made this mistake and the slippage was noticible the very first time I rode the bike with the EC oil at higher RPM shifts.

Did a total teardown of the clutch -thinking I might need to replace the plates until I noticed the fiction plates were well within specifications and didn't need to be replaced.  Took a chance and cleaned both friction and drive plates, reassembled with the old parts and put in non EC oil.  Slip was gone.

Yes, EC oil made my plates slip.

YMMV

I'm happy you remember how to fix a slipping clutch... here are the
steps for those you wish to ave $240.00 in new clutch parts by
investing in some sweat equity... deglazing clutch plates ain't
nothing new... no sir... back in the 70s it use to be part of every
savvy rider's maintenance plan but for some reason that all change
during the 90s...

Inspect the friction plates for glazing... make sure you have plenty
of material to work with... the RC30 manual states clutch thickness
falls within the 0.115 to 0.121 range... RC45 manual states clutch
thickness falls within the 0.146 to 0.153 range...

First removed the contaminants with something like Acetone... then lay
each plate over a 600 grit black dry emory paper and rotate in a
circle... you're just busting the glaze... don't get carried away
remove too much material... You should end up with a friction plate
looks dull like a new one as opposed to a shinny glazed one... recheck
thickness...


Next check the pressure plates for bluing caused by localized heat...
make sure they are not warped... the manual does not state a thickness
range... now removed the contaminants with something like Acetone
and wire wheeled them to erased the blue and also to generally scuff
up the surface... you should end up with a dull surface free of Blue
marks...


In conclusion no owner has ever reported of a slipping clutch on a new
bike or new clutch pack no matter what oil they have selected... it's
only around the 25K to 35K mile mark that a wet clutch may begin to
slip during WFO (Wide Fooking Open)due to normal glazing... blaming
the oil is not the root cause of the problem... deglazing or a new
clutch pack is... it's your choice...

Whatever .

Let me re-iterate.  This was a fairly low-mileage clutch in good condition.    No slip, no issues, good springs, not even CLOSE to the service limit upon inspection.  

I put put the EC oil in by mistake (had it sitting around for a cage and got them mixed up -my garage is kind of dark and small).  I didn't even realize the mistake until the clutch started slipping immediately.   Drained the oil, cleaned the plates (didn't even need to deglaze because they looked fine after a simple washing in detergent -I raced enduros for over 20 years and have seen many clutches come and go.  I know what glazing looks like and how to fix it -as well as how to use my dial caliper to measure for specified service limits)  Finally I put it all back together with non EC oil.  From that point on the clutch was fine for many thousands of miles.  

The only difference was the EC oil.  

YMMV

All I can tell you is what my experience was.  

You can go on believing the oil industry BS all you want.  It's a free world.

Anything that's not energy conservative is ok to use.

I'm in the Mobil 4T crowd right now. Don't remember what oil I was using first, but whatever dyno oil I first ran in the 4th gen didn't seem all that great. After switching to the 4T. Not necessarily referring to clutch slip, but overall it seemed to shift and work better. Having said that, I am looking to switch over to something that's cheaper and easier to get.

Whats confusing the issue is the fact that all motorcycle wet clutches
will reach a point in their life and start to slip... so someone at
some point in time added the EC 10% slipperier oil and got the clutch
to slip... in error the oil was blamed and the "don't use EC Oil" myth
was started... even the manufactures have gone along with the myth and
didn't take the time to sort out the truth...
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

You can look at it that way, but lets say, at 40,000 mile  a clutch thats not slipping, starts slipping with a slipperier oil.

Now you could spend 200 dollars replacing the clutch or change back to known good clutch oil and ride another 100,000 mile with no issue.  

Ive seen that in reality, and I know what my choice would be.

The point is, if you run oil that lacks the frictional characteristics, you may experience issue far ealier than you need too.

That is  reality

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 15 June 2010 - 02:43 AM, said:

I've been using 10/30 Energy Conserving Mobil 1 since 98 in Mr.RC45
with no clutch slipping due to oil being certified 10% slipperier than
non EC oil... and it's a bike with a tall first gear good for 90mph
that's known to incinerate clutch plates...

Whats confusing the issue is the fact that all motorcycle wet clutches
will reach a point in their life and start to slip... so someone at
some point in time added the EC 10% slipperier oil and got the clutch
to slip... in error the oil was blamed and the "don't use EC Oil" myth
was started... even the manufactures have gone along with the myth and
didn't take the time to sort out the truth...

In short a 10% slippery oil can not defeat a wet clutch... because our
clutches are not within 10% of slipping to begin with...

More evidence to support my conjecture can be found in Sportrider
magazine article "Oils Well That Ends Well?"

http://www.sportride...h/146_0308_oil/

quote Sportrider:
"Can synthetic oils cause my clutch to slip?"

"To answer this in one word: No. Clutch slippage is caused by many
things, but the use of synthetic oil alone is usually not the culprit.
The truth is that some bikes seem to suffer clutch slippage no
matter what oil goes in them, while others run fine with any oil. This
is most likely caused by factors other than the oil, such as the
spring pressure, age and clutch plate materials. If you have
a bike known for clutch problems, you may have to be more selective in
your oil choices. Moly is often blamed for clutch slippage, and it can
have an effect-but moly alone is not the problem. We wish there was a
hard and fast rule to follow, but it is just not that easy. Simply
put, you will have to try an oil and evaluate it. If you experience
slippage with the new oil, and have not had problems before, it may be
the oil. The plates and/or springs could also be worn to the point
that they have finally started to slip. Simply change back to the
previous oil and see what happens. You can also check the test data in
next issue's article to see if that particular oil has a significant
amount of moly. If so, try one that does not have as much moly next time."

"We talked to Mark Junge, Vesrah's Racing representative, who has won
numerous WERA national championships using Vesrah's clutches. He said
that in his years of engine work he has yet to see a slipping clutch
that could be pinned on synthetic motor oil. Junge felt that nearly
every time the clutch was marginal or had worn springs, the new oil
just revealed a problem that already existed."

I think the problem has more to do with non-synthetic EC oils.   Synthetic oil are engineered to, among other things, be more 'slippery'.  To make conventional oils slicker, friction reducers are added.  These reducers usually contain some form of Moly.    Moly 'fills' voids reducing friction, poisoning clutch lining.  

I agree with you, a synthetic oil EC or non-EC, is very unlikely to cause any clutch problems.  
I would avoid conventional EC oils because of their friction modifiers.

[image: View Post]coderighter, on 15 June 2010 - 11:28 PM, said:

I think the problem has more to do with non-synthetic EC oils.   Synthetic oil are engineered to, among other things, be more 'slippery'.  To make conventional oils slicker, friction reducers are added.  These reducers usually contain some form of Moly.    Moly 'fills' voids reducing friction, poisoning clutch lining.  

I agree with you, a synthetic oil EC or non-EC, is very unlikely to cause any clutch problems.  
I would avoid conventional EC oils because of their friction modifiers.

I agree.  It's not a synthetic/non-synthetic thing.  It's the EC friction modifiers that are best to stay away from.  They can cause a perfectly good clutch to start slipping at high RPM hard shifts.  It's happened to me.  It's happened to other people.  It's just a good idea to stay away from it and it isn't hard to do.  If it says Energy Conserving in the API label then don't put it into a wet clutch.  It seems that they only exist in the 30W varieties anyhow so it's no big deal to stay away from them.

If people think it is just an internet urban legend they can just go ahead put it in their own bikes.  It's a free world -but don't say you haven't been warned...

But ordinary synthetics won't hurt your clutch or anything but your wallet.  Me, I'll stick to the $1.35/quart oil.  It's good stuff -good enough to get me to 200k and my cars to 300k.  I'll take the money I save and use it to buy my next vehicle.

:+1:

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 15 June 2010 - 02:43 AM, said:

I've been using 10/30 Energy Conserving Mobil 1 since 98 in Mr.RC45
with no clutch slipping due to oil being certified 10% slipperier than
non EC oil... and it's a bike with a tall first gear good for 90mph
that's known to incinerate clutch plates...


Same here, Mobil 1 Energy conserving with no slippage.

[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 16 June 2010 - 07:38 AM, said:

[image: View Post]coderighter, on 15 June 2010 - 11:28 PM, said:

I think the problem has more to do with non-synthetic EC oils.   Synthetic oil are engineered to, among other things, be more 'slippery'.  To make conventional oils slicker, friction reducers are added.  These reducers usually contain some form of Moly.    Moly 'fills' voids reducing friction, poisoning clutch lining.  

I agree with you, a synthetic oil EC or non-EC, is very unlikely to cause any clutch problems.  
I would avoid conventional EC oils because of their friction modifiers.

I agree.  It's not a synthetic/non-synthetic thing.  It's the EC friction modifiers that are best to stay away from.  They can cause a perfectly good clutch to start slipping at high RPM hard shifts.  It's happened to me.  It's happened to other people.  It's just a good idea to stay away from it and it isn't hard to do.  If it says Energy Conserving in the API label then don't put it into a wet clutch.  It seems that they only exist in the 30W varieties anyhow so it's no big deal to stay away from them.

If people think it is just an internet urban legend they can just go ahead put it in their own bikes.  It's a free world -but don't say you haven't been warned...

But ordinary synthetics won't hurt your clutch or anything but your wallet.  Me, I'll stick to the $1.35/quart oil.  It's good stuff -good enough to get me to 200k and my cars to 300k.  I'll take the money I save and use it to buy my next vehicle.

:+1:

Curious, which Supertech you running?

Can someone direct me to an oil thread?

[image: View Post]Knife, on 16 June 2010 - 10:36 AM, said:

Can someone direct me to an oil thread?


http://www.bp.com/bo...ntentId=7052055

[image: View Post]V4pilot, on 14 June 2010 - 06:19 AM, said:

Ok Guys its an oil question and I know there is plenty of info in here but nobody answered a specific item I was looking for.
Is synthetic oil like molbil 1 ok to run for wet clutch operation; it does not mention anything about it on the bottle. other non syn oils
specifically say for wet clutches. your thoughts would be nice.

:goofy:

OK YOU HAVE OPENED A CAN OF WORMS ON THIS ONE WITCH HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT MANY TIMES BE FOR. MY QUESTION IS HOW MANY MILES A YEAR YOU RIDE 3,4 OR 5K A YEAR YOU WILL ONLY BE CHANGING YOUR OIL ONCE OR TWICE A YEAR, IS IT NOT A BIG DEAL TO SPEND A LITTLE EXTRA TO PROTECT YOUR BABY.  I GO TO KRAGEN AND GET MY
MOBIL-1 4T MOTORCYCLE OIL. I HAVE ALMOST 170,000 MILES ON MY BIKE AND I HAVE SLIPPAGE WITH CAR MOBIL-1 CHANGED BACK TO MOBIL-1 4T AND THE SLIPPAGE STOPPED, I DON'T KNOW IF MY CLUTCH IS GOING BAD AGAIN BUT IT DOS NOT SLIP WITH MOBIL-1 4T. DO NOT USE "ENERGY CONSERVING" MARKED OIL. GO TO MOTORCYCLE SHOP LIKE YOUR DEALER OR CYCLE GEAR AND GET A MOTORCYCLE OIL.


Stephen

I truly love oil threads.  I guess it's the drama..... :goofy:

As in most things mechanical, I just follow the owner's manual with no regard to brand.  I use Amsoil mc oil of the recommended viscosity because I can get it cheaper than Mobil mc oil and it works fine.  I have no loyalty to Amsoil or most other things with a brand name.  I just love owner's and service manuals....they have real answers!!   :biggrin: