I have installed a straight set of 98 VTR1000 forks in my 98 VFR.
I am using stock VFR rotors. I have a set of VTR 1000 calipers I am using also; but while the bolt holes do line up they are about an 1/8 inch away from the caliper mounting holes. The axle spacer for the right leg is in place as well as the left side "ring".
Any input would be greatly appreciated! I understoood from my research that there was not offset issue using this setup and that it was a drop in swap. So, I presume I am missing something. Although, I have the resources to fabricate anything that is needed.
So, when you measure your forks assembly bolted together with the triples and calipers and you measure your front wheel with the brake rotors mounted, what is your distance from center of rotor to center of rotor and your distance from center of caliper to center of caliper?
Do you have the VTR set? May need them to make it work?
Negatory Ghost Rider....fleabay buy.
I am thinking the spacers are probably the issue; or at least I know it can be fixed with spacers. As CornerCarver pointed out; some measurements are in order.
I have installed a straight set of 98 VTR1000 forks in my 98 VFR.
I am using stock VFR rotors. I have a set of VTR 1000 calipers I am using also; but while the bolt holes do line up they are about an 1/8 inch away from the caliper mounting holes. The axle spacer for the right leg is in place as well as the left side "ring".
Any input would be greatly appreciated! I understoood from my research that there was not offset issue using this setup and that it was a drop in swap. So, I presume I am missing something. Although, I have the resources to fabricate anything that is needed.
I am using VTR lowers on VFR800 upper tubes. Also using RC51 (SP2) calipers with the stock 5th gen wheel and rotors. I have also noticed a bit of mismatch of caliper alignment. That the inner pistons were closer to the rotor (if inner and outer pistons are in same relative position to the caliper face) than the outer. I had considered going anal and grinding custom washers to put between the fork mount and caliper, but for the moment I am just using a standard off the shelf washer to help make-up the difference. I may still go for getting the measurements and getting an exact washer thickness to use, but that is not at the top of my "to do" list. I hadnt given it a high priority since overall its just positioning where the pistons and pads clamp together in total.
(From comments - Maybe its looking like that perfect thickness spacer washers are a good idea?)
KPerham - I also have a bit of the "vibs" on hard braking and not totally happy with it. I have cranked up rebound damping some and that helped. I thought I could attribute part of the cause to the system has less than optimum stiffness, but now I see you are having a simular issue with the RC51 forks that are mucho stiff. - Btw, I am using stock SP2 pads.
-I'm still head scratching a bit on this. Gotta admitt, for the moment at least for the front end, I'm in a "just ride it" mode, as its not bad enuff to mess with. I'll probably attack it at some point, but I want to work out the electrical garbage first.
I'll try not to jack this thread to my braking issues... Lol!
I take it by Mello's reply that the VTR calipers are solid mount opposed piston type. So that theory is out. Probably spacers. At one point I was going to try F4i forks and brakes with VTec triples and my '99 wheel. Baileyrock advised that I'd likely need F4i axle and spacers for that setup. Or maybe VTec. Don't remember. Not 5th Gen at any rate.
okay guys let me do some tinkering tonight and I will advise. Reality is washers will be the short term and custom machined spacer will be the end game. In my mind not worth tracking down more Superchicken parts...
Next topic is the front master cylinder....I dont remember which guru pointed out the danger of using the VFR mc but I am going to do a driveway/neighborhood run to test my Nicky Haden catlike finesse soon.... ;-)
I do have a VTR mc- but cant help but wonder how sensitive the vfr mc is. So, I will break out my Icon carbon flip-plops and Dianese wife beater for safety sake....
Shoot! Minor screw up on my part, but the basic theory is the same. Bigger caliper pistons require a bigger bore master. So the 32/34 has a 19mm master and 30/32 has the 17mm. Either way half inch won't cut it!
The 5th-gen VFR's fork spacing is 204mm; the VTR's fork spacing is 192mm. (This is determined by the triple clamps.)
The brake disk offset is 17mm for both bikes, and caliper mounting lugs are generally in the same relative places on the fork lowers, so the only way this combination could fit on a drop-in basis is if the VFR's wheel hub (where the disks mount) were 12mm wider than the VTR's. Unfortunately, it is only about 7mm wider...which leaves you with 2.5mm per side to make up with caliper spacers. Does that ring a bell?
The axles and spacers should also be carefully measured, as the VFR's axle length and spacers may no longer be appropriate.
The VTR1000F master cylinder is actually 14mm, and the VFR master is actually 12.7mm (marked "1/2"). Using the VFR master with the VTR calipers would give you more leverage (i.e., "power") at the expense of "feel" and (more importantly, to my mind) increased lever travel. The latter means that whilst you're busy locking up your front wheel, your brake lever might come back to the bar..neither of which are particularly helpful unless you're suicidal. Most 14mm m/cs are remote-reservoir types, and you can find them on everything from Fireblades to, well, Fireblades (and VTRs). They are helpfully marked "14" on the casting. However, there are not a whole lot of integral reservior-type m/cs in 14mm, if you're going for the OEM VFR look. I have one on my FP (with VTR fork conversion) and I think it was sourced from an ST1100. HTH.
FYI, VTR caliper pistons are actually 30/27 (four of each), and the VFR's four front brake-activated caliper pistons are actually 27, 25.4, 25.4 and 22.65 (go figure).
Most Honda master cylinders are 1/2" or 14mm, with a relative few being larger sizes, such as 5/8", 11/16" and 3/4" (though I haven't really kept track of the radials).
1/2=12.7mm
14=14.0mm
5/8=16.0mm
11/16=17.5mm
3/4=19.1mm
(NOTE: ALL MEASUREMENTS PROVIDED HEREIN ARE APPROXIMATE--PLEASE MEASURE FOR YOURSELF!)
Ive just done the vtr forkswap as well, with vtr 1000f calipers and master cylinder, Ive spaced the calipers with washers as descibed in the above posts, Im posting here cos I ve noticed vibration under braking too,
I thought it would clear as the pads bedded in, (new oem pads, old vfr discs) but if anything its getting more noticable, its not the end of the world but its a little disconcerting and i see posters above saying similar things.....
Im posting here cos I've noticed vibration under braking too,
Check your head bearings. I had the same on my delinked VFR & adjusted the bearings & its gone away :)
in the end my issue was a dodgy thread on one of my calipers, but i was so giddy to ride i just lumped some thread lock in an went for it, (sounds stupid with hindsight i know) anyway, saw the error of my ways got the caliper sorted at my local machine shop..problem solved, havent had an issue since , and would definitely recommend the conversion to anyone considering it.....
Off topic note - I had a few people ask for my adaptor brackets to mount the 5th gen fender on the VTR fork legs. Made a batch and have a few left over sets. Check classified or PM. :cool:
Hi guys. I've recently bent my forks and as my calibers needed refurbushing(and I don't like the linked brakes), I tought of delinking the brakes and changing the front braking system and forks. I'm thinking of buying the whole front braking system (M/C calipers, brake lines) and forks from a 1998 VTR. I'm thinking of using my 99 VFR triple, wheel and discs. Basicly it has to fit without any modifications except the alignment of the discs and calipers, right? And which axle and spacers did you use VFR or VTR(with the VFR wheel)? Thanks in advance! :beer:
Hi guys. I've recently bent my forks and as my calibers needed refurbushing(and I don't like the linked brakes), I tought of delinking the brakes and changing the front braking system and forks. I'm thinking of buying the whole front braking system (M/C calipers, brake lines) and forks from a 1998 VTR. I'm thinking of using my 99 VFR triple, wheel and discs. Basicly it has to fit without any modifications except the alignment of the discs and calipers, right? And which axle and spacers did you use VFR or VTR(with the VFR wheel)? Thanks in advance! :beer:
Dude - its pretty much a drop in. --- I did nears exactly the same thing, except I used the stock VFR800 upper tubes, which were a few mm taller and then RC51 calipers and mc.
Some stuff....
- Chances are you will need different brake lines.
- Stock wheel, rotor, spacers, axle work fine.
- The VTR fender wont bolt on because the triple tree stance is wider.
- I designed adaptor brackets that make bolting up the stock 5th gen fender to the VTR forks easy. (I have a set left
for sale.)
- Oh yeah, the rear you will need to change the master cylinder to a 14mm - VTR, RC51, F4i and I'm sure others use one like it. Also bridge the rear pistons together. -- Some guys just use both brake lines, personal taste I guess.
Check my gallery for the bike build and feel free to PM me with questions.
--------------------------
May as well add... there are umteem options to change forks, but another "quick" option is F4i forks and 6th gen triples and clip ons.
Others -------- Plus the gamut of other USD Frankenviffer changes here..... :cool:
What MD said, you must use the axle and spacers from the triple clamps that you select as this sets the spacing between the fork bottoms where the axle fits...
If you source a VTR set of triples you could use the VTR fender/mud guard but part of the reason guys upgrade the VTRs with fork braces is due to the triple clamp spacing so best to stick with VFR triples and fab or source some mounting brackets to adapt the fender of your choice.
With RC51 front master/calipers this upgrade is outstanding!
If you source a VTR set of triples you could use the VTR fender/mud guard but part of the reason guys upgrade the VTRs with fork braces is due to the triple clamp spacing so best to stick with VFR triples and fab or source some mounting brackets to adapt the fender of your choice.
Yeah, I wasnt clear - VTR triples are narrower in stance than the 5th gen triples, so the SH fender wont fit. The 5th gen fits only with some kind of adaptor bracket.
Just to be clear. With the VTR triples, it is a straight swap? Taking into account that the master is is also VTR. Nothing VFR is left behind on the front.
Yeah, I wasnt clear - VTR triples are narrower in stance than the 5th gen triples, so the SH fender wont fit. The 5th gen fits only with some kind of adaptor bracket.
Yeah, I wasnt clear - VTR triples are narrower in stance than the 5th gen triples, so the SH fender wont fit. The 5th gen fits only with some kind of adaptor bracket.
I just finished doing this swap today on my 5th gen. Vtr bottoms with my vfr tubes, mello dudes fender adapters cbr954rr calipers, cbr600f4i rear master and I took the easy way and just used the existing 2 rear brake lines and the factory double banjo bolt at the rear. Cbr600f4 5/8 bore master instead of the 11/16 bore it should really use but it still works perfectly well. I used venhill brake lines as they are like a modular system where you buy the desired line length needed and the screw on fittings separate so you get the correct angled fittings and when fitted there is no chance of the lines not being crimped in the right position and the brake lines kinked/coiled up a bit. Setup looks factory fresh and works a treat. Do it dude
Yeah, I wasnt clear - VTR triples are narrower in stance than the 5th gen triples, so the SH fender wont fit. The 5th gen fits only with some kind of adaptor bracket.
I believe it was part of the brake delinking process that called for different bottoms. But mello dude will be the better one to explain why he did it.
I have Wilbers springs in my stock vfr -98 forks now, but there I have no rebound damping what so ever. The fork oil that came with it was SAE 5. I beleive the lower case is worn out. Bike run over 100.000 km There are some vibration when light brakeing and I have change everything exept forks. So.. My wilbers springs do not fit the VTR 1000 forks, and still wondering what to do. Looking around for som VFR lower pipes at the moment, in good shape. Anyone?
I can't think of any reason why the Wilbers VFR800 springs won't fit into VTR forks; they have the same internal diameter, the only difference will be the length of any spacers that you may need. From memory the VTR fork cap preload adjuster is about 20 or 25mm longer than the equivalent on the VFR, so the spacer needs to be shortened by that amount. I have VTR fork caps and adjustable rebound damping components installed in my standard VFR fork tubes.
A set of springs is a given, no matter what you are riding. it is part of the deal.
I just did the entire front. No fender issues.
I'm intrigued about your fender comment; I've got a spare et of VTR lower legs and the complete brake setup, and I already have the VTR damper parts in my VFR.
I'm contemplating de-linking the VFR brakes, not because I don't like them (actually I think they're great) but to get rid of the unsprung weight of the complex brake mechanism hoses etc. I also ride a VTR on which I have modified the front springing and damping, and this has a much better front ride (less reaction to bumps) than the VFR. I've tried a lot of different variants of suspension shims/oil/oil levels on the VFR and it handles great, I just wish it was a little comfier; I suspect that the ride comfort is affected by the heavy unsprung weight of the brake system.
Can anyone who has de-linked make any comment on whether the ride comfort improved???
I understood that the VFR fender mount is different to the brackets on the VTR forks (hence Mello Dude's adaptors). I do know the VTR triples are narrower than the VFR so the tubes are not spaced as widely as the VFR. Which fender did you use and how did you mount it to the VTR legs? Or did you use the VTR triples as well?
Terry, If you are utilizing the VTR front assembly as a unit (forks, triples and wheels) you can easily just bolt on a VTR front fender.
A common Superhawk/VTR upgrade is to use the RC51 calipers on the VTR fork lowers and we have this set up on a 4th gen VFR.
You may need to add a little clearance on the fork mounting attachment for the calipers, we had to on one side but not the other.
I cannot comment on whether de-linking alone improved the ride quality in the front as the forks were sent out with VTR lowers and CBR600F3 fork internals to be revalved and resprung at Traxxion Dynamics for the VFR and rider weight.
A set of springs is a given, no matter what you are riding. it is part of the deal.
I just did the entire front. No fender issues.
I'm intrigued about your fender comment; I've got a spare et of VTR lower legs and the complete brake setup, and I already have the VTR damper parts in my VFR.
I'm contemplating de-linking the VFR brakes, not because I don't like them (actually I think they're great) but to get rid of the unsprung weight of the complex brake mechanism hoses etc. I also ride a VTR on which I have modified the front springing and damping, and this has a much better front ride (less reaction to bumps) than the VFR. I've tried a lot of different variants of suspension shims/oil/oil levels on the VFR and it handles great, I just wish it was a little comfier; I suspect that the ride comfort is affected by the heavy unsprung weight of the brake system.
Can anyone who has de-linked make any comment on whether the ride comfort improved???
I understood that the VFR fender mount is different to the brackets on the VTR forks (hence Mello Dude's adaptors). I do know the VTR triples are narrower than the VFR so the tubes are not spaced as widely as the VFR. Which fender did you use and how did you mount it to the VTR legs? Or did you use the VTR triples as well?
Complete VTR front. All in. Triples, tubes, lowers, fender... I even took the controls because I like the reservoirs better.
I cant really speak to comfort. Very subjective and set up specific. A couple clicks can make a difference. "comfort" usually equates to a ride that is soft which leads to dive and excessive travel. UNLESS you have top notch components.
Terry, If you are utilizing the VTR front assembly as a unit (forks, triples and wheels) you can easily just bolt on a VTR front fender.
A common Superhawk/VTR upgrade is to use the RC51 calipers on the VTR fork lowers and we have this set up on a 4th gen VFR.
You may need to add a little clearance on the fork mounting attachment for the calipers, we had to on one side but not the other.
I cannot comment on whether de-linking alone improved the ride quality in the front as the forks were sent out with VTR lowers and CBR600F3 fork internals to be revalved and resprung at Traxxion Dynamics for the VFR and rider weight.
Actually I have already upgraded the brakes on my VTR using callipers and master off a CBR954, which are the same as the SP2. I did file a bit off the lower mount on both legs for clearance.
I've also revalved and resprung the VTR fork, and it works better than my similarly resprung and revalved VFR fork, which is what got me to wondering about whether it was the difference in unsprung weight between the two that made the difference?
VfrViddy, I bought some lightly crashed VTR forks, the tubes were a little bent but the inner parts were OK. From these, I extracted the fork cap and the damper rod and the rebound piston. The rest of the parts can stay as standard VFR parts, although if you are doing track days you'd get a lot of benefit from new springs (the VTR springs are just as weedy as the VFR) and changes to the shims and damper parts.
My recipe is to use 0.90 kg/mm springs, a Gold Valve for the compression and use the C32 or C33 shim stack they recommend, and re-shim the standard rebound piston with 5 x 0.15 x 17mm shims.
Anyone who can compare the vtr spring with the vfr spring?
A litle confusing as to how much the spacer needs to be cut.
I would like my vfr as close to original as possible.
But had my first track day last weekend and damn, I need som front forks That can be adjusted.
If CornerCarver have some lower forks, maybe someone else have the VTR upper forks I need?
Its not a common mod here in norway and I Dont think any members of the vfr-club Norway with 5th gen vfr have done the swap.
The VTR springs are even softer then the VFR. No matter what get new springs for you and the bike.I used the spacer that was in the VTR tubes with the new spring and adjusted all the way out it is just right. I figured I could always take it out and cut it if it was too stiff and didnt get the sag I needed, I would recommend doing the same if you go this route because my bike is considerably lighter then stock and I am 170 lbs without gear.
Thanks!! Terry. sounds just like what I need. As told before, I have a pair of wilbers springs but my lower fork legs are so worn that i beleive they need replacing as well.
Anyone got the fork cap and the damper rod and the rebound piston from a VTR?
If you've changed fork seals then you've already done the hard stuff, the rest of the fork is easy. The fork cartridge is easy to disassemble, push the compression valve into the cartridge to expose the circlip, remove that, then extract the compression valve. The rebound piston and rod will slide right out the same way, don't worry there's no parts that will come flying out!
The link above describes how to disassemble the valve bodies and add new shims. You'll need the RaceTech GoldValve part FMGV S2040.
I suspect that kit has enough shims in it to also re-shim the rebound piston (that is in the installation instructions).
All you'll need is some Loctite and some very basic hand tools, patience, and cleanliness.
still wondering about my wilbers vfr springs though.
fitting with' the vtr damping rod and cap,
what spacer do I use and how mutch do I cut?
I can compare the length of the the springs + spacer in non compressed condition.
or
I can just cut the spacer from the vfr compared to the longer damper mecanism and cap on the vtr.
if the vtr and vfr forks the same length.
did this make any sense?
The VTR is a shorter fork. I do not recall the Delta. I would use the stock spacer before cutting. If you are heavy it may not be that far off of what you need to get your correct sag dims. Then, if your preload is too much after reassembly, you may need to cut. The beauty is that you have adjustment now at the top of the forks. taking into account that my assembly and weight is different from yours, I had to cut 1 1/2" off my stock spacer, then I added back preload at the adjusters.
If I recall correctly you are keeping all of the VFR fork and just changing the cap/cartridge to a VTR to get the rebound adjuster? In that case, assuming you were happy with the ride height of the Wilbers springs in the "old" fork, I would measure the difference in length between the two fork caps and shorten the "old" space by that amount. The damper cartridges in the VFR and VTR are the same length so that won't affect anything.That will be the only difference that affects the spring. If you were running the Wilbers spring near maximum on the old preload adjuster, you could compensate by adding say 5mm to the final spacer length for the new set-up.
Keep in mind the part of the cap that bears on the springs is the bottom of the locknut. I would screw the spring preload adjuster to it's mid point on both caps, then measure from the top of the cap to the bottom of the threaded tube on both. I think it should be around a 25mm difference if memory serves me well.
You can replace the spacer with a suitable diameter of PVC pipe, or cut an existing spacer to suit.
I don't think you can't use a 6th gen spring as it is intended for a 43mm diameter fork, whereas the 5th gen is a 41mm.
5th gen fork = 41mm same as VTR hence swap works. 6th gen fork=43mm so CBR600F4/F4i parts can be used.
Front master with VTR/CBR lowers & brake calipers use CBR600F4/F4i master cylinder, perfect & looks the same as VFR master.
Add 3mm spacers between. VTR caliper mounts & the calipers to get correct alignment on disc. I used 2x 1.5mm alloy washers & superglued them under pressure to the calipers to avoid them falling out when you have to remove caliper to change tyre etc.
That's a bit I hadn't considered with the VTR lower install on a 5th gen Mohawk. Just so I understand clearly (if I ever do the de-link exercise), are you saying that the combination of 5th gen triples, VTR lowers/brakes and a 5th gen wheel needs the 3mm spacers? I have compared the wheels and the VTR discs are closer together than the VFR, so I guess that would make sense.
I also own a complete VTR and I have fitted CBR954 callipers/master on that, and these are a nearly straight swap except the lower calliper mount on each leg needs a bit of filing to fit the calliper. CBR600, CBR929 and RC51 callipers need the same treatment to fit VTR forks. With the 3mm spacers you may not need to file the VTR legs.
I found the VTR brakes a bit uninspiring, I think Honda messed up the master cylinder size (too small). The 954 brakes are wonderful.
I did some calculations on this in this thread in 2011, and I think I came out with 2.5mm per side, but 3mm is probably close enough.
When I fit the VTR forks and F4i calipers to my 3rd gen I decided to grind the calipers, rather than the fork lowers--less critical "meat" on the calipers was my reasoning.
Also, IINM, fork springs are the same OD in all RC46, despite the stanchion tubes being slightly larger. In any case, it wouldn't make any difference, so long as there was no interference with other parts. What matters is the rate. In theory, you could have one really strong spring in one fork leg and nothing at all in the other, but I don't think anyone does this. Some bikes did have the compression valving in one fork and the rebound valving in the other. Didn't the early Race-Tech kit for the ST1300 do this?
I ground the lower fork fitting as I was more comfortable shaving a couple of mm off on the non-load bearing side of the fitting (the calliper is pushing forwards on the leg) than on the outside of the hydraulic cylinder.
I looked up the spring offerings on the Racetech site and they list a different series name 3534 for the 41mm fork and 3732 for the 43mm. I believe this translates to a 35mm OD and 340mm length for the 41mm fork, and 37mm OD and 320mm length for the 43mm fork.
Correct, on mine, I had to file a small amount off the VTR lower caliper mount so the CBR929 calipers would line up with the bolt holes.
Then added 3mm spacer between legs & calipers to get the disc central in the caliper slot. If you look at my delink pics, they show it in highres detail.
^^^-On mine, I did very similar, but a little less scientific, and used off the shelf washers from the hardware store.I would guess they are a tenth inch thick.
Works fine. Grinding perfect dimension spacers is on my to do list, but there are plenty of other things more needed to get done first.
5th gen fork = 41mm same as VTR hence swap works. 6th gen fork=43mm so CBR600F4/F4i parts can be used.
Front master with VTR/CBR lowers & brake calipers use CBR600F4/F4i master cylinder, perfect & looks the same as VFR master.
Add 3mm spacers between. VTR caliper mounts & the calipers to get correct alignment on disc. I used 2x 1.5mm alloy washers & superglued them under pressure to the calipers to avoid them falling out when you have to remove caliper to change tyre etc.
This is the reason on my 5th Gen I went with the 6th Gen triples (direct swap) and the F4I forks (and fender) and de-linked the brakes. I used no spacers on the brakes at all...everything lned up nicely. And I have 43mm forks almost the same length (a little shorter 5-7mm IIRC)...
You are correct you only need to drill a relief hole if there is not another bleed. No need for one on the rebound as the bleed goes through the adjuster. You do need a bleed hole on the compression valve, there's no other low speed bypass on the VTR or 5th gen.
I would re shim the rebound while you are in there.
I've got a GV on rebound in my VFR but not my VTR. Money was a bit tight when I modded the VTR. A high flow piston makes the biggest improvement on compression, less so on rebound but nice to have.
C35 is a stiffer setup than I used but give it a go and see what you think. It's easy enough to change later because now you're an expert on fork disassembly. [image: emoji3.png]
If you're testing with legs fully extended they might feel a bit loose. Once the cartridge is installed it limits the extension so there's more overlap between upper and lower parts and less wiggle. Did you visually check the bushings? The sliding surface should be grey Teflon not worn through copper.
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