Need ride height advice (front and rear)

Hey all.  New owner of a 5th gen here in LA.  I owned a VF500 in '86 and recently a 6th gen but got rid of it because it was a bit heavy and didn't like the VTEC so i got this 5th gen and so far i love it.
I know there are certain things that are very common to do with these bikes (45 tooth sprocket, R/R fix, upgrade headlights, etc) and was wondering if a lot of people drop the front a few mm or raise the rear for better handling or if the bike works great just stock.  
I plan on doing a restomod with her so I'll be posting some pics/info down the road for anyone who cares to see.
Thanks-

David

Dropping the front and rasing the rear would almost always result in quicker handling for VFRs and most other bikes. The trick is to know how much to do so to maintain safe ground clearance and come up with handling that would match the riding style you want to do.
Do a search on the forum for suspension modifications and/or adjustments and you might find the correct information you are looking for.
Just be aware that you might never approach the same levels of handling that you might find from a "full fledged" sportbike like a CBR, R1, GSXR.......etc., as the VFR chassis and suspension pieces were not really designed to provide that level of handling at the edge.

Beck
95VFR

The only reason you would need to start moving forks down in the clamps or setting the dogbones lower is if your not able to flat foot for stop lights or you need to raise the hieght due to scraping hard parts (that is usually because of folks coasting in turns), handling issues can be handled by setting preloads properly - measure your sag, set the preloads front and back to the sag you need and then from there just tweek it a quarter turn or two to get the feel you want. the thread below is how I did the "old girl" my old trusy 98 vfr.

http://www.vfrdiscus...ension-preload/

Dropping the front end 5mm is quite a common thing to do on the 5th Gen. Mine's like that, and has been since I had the bike (nearly 7 years). Also the Elka rear shock is about as far as it can go (can't remember how much). It's not too extreme, as when the bike's on the sidestand it's not leaning too much. Handling is good, but part of that is the Elka and Ohlins/Racetech/CKT parts in the front forks plus some careful fettling to make sure the internals are concentric, damping rate's right, etc.

Hi and welcome!
Like mentioned dropping the front 5-8mm is common and adding a washer or two under the top rear shock mount will also help. The rear is like a 3-1 or 4-1 ratio so adding a 3mm washer will raise the rear 9-12mm. Raising the rear will work better if ground clearance is a concern!

BR

Is there a base-line sag figure to shoot for/from?  I am just getting my 2000 dialed in and I have not owned a VFR before.  So when I 'feel' it in the corners, I don't really have anything to go from.  Mine has an Ohlins with the remote ride height adjuster and rear two way adjustable shock...I think just standard forks.   I have not measured or set my suspension sag at all yet, I have been fiddling with the front pre-load and the rear some...but I am kinda lost so far, not knowing how a 'standard' suspension setting bike works.

   My bike's previous owner...his idea of riding and bike set-up/maintainance must have been quite different from mine...  So I am starting from here:  The bike has a 180/55 rear tire/big flat center section.  The gearing is 17/41...He has the fork legs up in the clamp with 47.8mm between the top of the clamp and the bottom edge of the fork cap.  Turn in feels 'ok' to me..No headshake felt..  I have the preload at the front with 7.7mm of the adjuster showing...2 lines and just a little.

  What I am feeling is at transition from side to side..the suspension goes a bit vague right as I cross vertical.  Leaned over, even the painted lines can be felt as I cross.   If I am on smooth surface, everything feels pretty normal at high corner angles.   The front feels.....kinda 'cheap'...I guess is the best way to describe it...Like a Wal-Mart bike up there....not real precise.   I am used to riding a Honda Hawk with a pretty well dialed suspension, so maybe I just need to suck it up and ride though it....

  Anyway, I am going to "square one" and start over from the basics.  So what are "the basics?"   I weigh about 175 and I've had lots of seat time on various bikes...maybe 15 track days over the years and plenty of twistys....(roads, that is)

  Anyone care to offers some guidance to a new to VFR guy?   I did just order up a 16f/44 rear sprocket set so I can get out of 4th gear...With the Previous Owner's gearing I was cruising at 70 in 4th and feeling like I still might have been lugging the motor....
  TIA,  Don Hanson

[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on 26 October 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

Hi and welcome!
Like mentioned dropping the front 5-8mm is common and adding a washer or two under the top rear shock mount will also help. The rear is like a 3-1 or 4-1 ratio so adding a 3mm washer will raise the rear 9-12mm. Raising the rear will work better if ground clearance is a concern!

BR

Thanks guys - this is exactly why I joined.  I understand the differences/concept of dropping/raising the rear/front but wanted to know what the majority found to be good.  5mm is what I needed to know - I'll give it a shot.  Last question - since I've never messed with ride height before how can I tell if the front is stock height since the bike has had 2 previous owners?  Is there a factory mark somewhere and how do I properly measure?
Sorry for the noob questions but I've always just really ridden and not delved too much into working on the bike besides the basics but I want to do more now, especially since I am doing my first track training day soon.
Thanks again-

David

[image: View Post]DavidEW, on 27 October 2011 - 11:12 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on 26 October 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

Hi and welcome!
Like mentioned dropping the front 5-8mm is common and adding a washer or two under the top rear shock mount will also help. The rear is like a 3-1 or 4-1 ratio so adding a 3mm washer will raise the rear 9-12mm. Raising the rear will work better if ground clearance is a concern!

BR

Thanks guys - this is exactly why I joined.  I understand the differences/concept of dropping/raising the rear/front but wanted to know what the majority found to be good.  5mm is what I needed to know - I'll give it a shot.  Last question - since I've never messed with ride height before how can I tell if the front is stock height since the bike has had 2 previous owners?  Is there a factory mark somewhere and how do I properly measure?
Sorry for the noob questions but I've always just really ridden and not delved too much into working on the bike besides the basics but I want to do more now, especially since I am doing my first track training day soon.
Thanks again-

David

No worries!
Stock fork height on a 5th gen is 39mm from the top of the top triple to the top of the fork tube so you would be looking for that number to be 44mm after adjustment. :smile:

BTW you can Download a Factory Shop manual from our "Files" section.

BR

[image: View Post]gnarly928, on 26 October 2011 - 11:37 AM, said:

Is there a base-line sag figure to shoot for/from?  I am just getting my 2000 dialed in and I have not owned a VFR before.  So when I 'feel' it in the corners, I don't really have anything to go from.  Mine has an Ohlins with the remote ride height adjuster and rear two way adjustable shock...I think just standard forks.   I have not measured or set my suspension sag at all yet, I have been fiddling with the front pre-load and the rear some...but I am kinda lost so far, not knowing how a 'standard' suspension setting bike works.

  
Basic Sag numbers are 25-35mm rear and 30-40mm front depending on where and how you ride. Track would be smaller on both ends and larger numbers if it was stock suspension and you weighed much more than you do.

The Ohlins on the back is Great, but that only makes the soft front feel and work worse! :sad:
You need to find out what spring is on that Ohlins and do some fork work(at least correct springs & oil) to help balance out the bikes suspension again.  At 175 lbs you should be in the 17-19kg range(stock is 15.3kg/.74)on the rear and install .85-.90's in the forks to match.

[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on 27 October 2011 - 12:06 PM, said:

[image: View Post]gnarly928, on 26 October 2011 - 11:37 AM, said:

Is there a base-line sag figure to shoot for/from?  I am just getting my 2000 dialed in and I have not owned a VFR before.  So when I 'feel' it in the corners, I don't really have anything to go from.  Mine has an Ohlins with the remote ride height adjuster and rear two way adjustable shock...I think just standard forks.   I have not measured or set my suspension sag at all yet, I have been fiddling with the front pre-load and the rear some...but I am kinda lost so far, not knowing how a 'standard' suspension setting bike works.

  
Basic Sag numbers are 25-35mm rear and 30-40mm front depending on where and how you ride. Track would be smaller on both ends and larger numbers if it was stock suspension and you weighed much more than you do.

The Ohlins on the back is Great, but that only makes the soft front feel and work worse! :sad:
You need to find out what spring is on that Ohlins and do some fork work(at least correct springs & oil) to help balance out the bikes suspension again.  At 175 lbs you should be in the 17-19kg range(stock is 15.3kg/.74)on the rear and install .85-.90's in the forks to match.

  Thanks.

  It's been some years since I've been inside a set of forks.  Will there be any indication of the spring rate on the springs themselves?  Or should I just chuck the ones in there and get new at a proper rate? (65k miles on this bike, BTW)  With leathers and boots and gear, I'll probably use 200lbs as my mounted weight.  I prefer my set up to be more towards sporting, in fact this VFR is the first 'civilized' bike I have ever owned..all the others have been quite track-orientated.  But after building and racing a big V8 Porsche for a bunch of years...tracking a bike again, I think I will have a more realistic perspective about recreational track days.

  I'll probably end up doing something more with the front..but for now, I guess known-rate appropriate springs and a fresh filling with oil should be change enough.  I don't find changing more than one suspension setting or component, especially on an unfamiliar ride, to be at all effective....you never know what did what until you get some seat time with each 'adjustment'...I have my little notebook to note things as I try them...trouble is....it's empty so far...other than what I found from the last guy....the Freeway Flyer who sold me the bike.
  Thanks again for the advice to  a rookie.  I did find the downloads for the shop manual.
  Don Hanson

If the front is moved from 39mm to 44 mm, what length should the shock be to match?

[image: View Post]bmart, on 27 October 2011 - 05:55 PM, said:

If the front is moved from 39mm to 44 mm, what length should the shock be to match?

Unless you are trying to just Lower the bike, then you Don't need/want to Match the front/rear ride height.  What the thread started and others posting here are trying to achieve is to quicken the steering effect on the VFR's using a RAKE (angle/pitch) change. Since we can't change the rake angle of the steering head/frame we have to rasie or lower one end of the bike to achieve similar results.
When you jack up(raise) the rear of the bike you are basically changing the angle of the fork tubes in relation to the ground.
Lowering the front(raising tubes in trees) will achieve the same effect, but with the loss of some ground clearance. Doing both will make an even bigger change in rake angle which will act to quicken steering even more.  Go too far and the bike will become unstable at high speed, but the VFR's are fairly conservative fork rake so it take a Lot of Change to hurt stability IMO.

[image: View Post]gnarly928, on 27 October 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on 27 October 2011 - 12:06 PM, said:

[image: View Post]gnarly928, on 26 October 2011 - 11:37 AM, said:

Is there a base-line sag figure to shoot for/from?  I am just getting my 2000 dialed in and I have not owned a VFR before.  So when I 'feel' it in the corners, I don't really have anything to go from.  Mine has an Ohlins with the remote ride height adjuster and rear two way adjustable shock...I think just standard forks.   I have not measured or set my suspension sag at all yet, I have been fiddling with the front pre-load and the rear some...but I am kinda lost so far, not knowing how a 'standard' suspension setting bike works.

  
Basic Sag numbers are 25-35mm rear and 30-40mm front depending on where and how you ride. Track would be smaller on both ends and larger numbers if it was stock suspension and you weighed much more than you do.

The Ohlins on the back is Great, but that only makes the soft front feel and work worse! :sad:
You need to find out what spring is on that Ohlins and do some fork work(at least correct springs & oil) to help balance out the bikes suspension again.  At 175 lbs you should be in the 17-19kg range(stock is 15.3kg/.74)on the rear and install .85-.90's in the forks to match.

  Thanks.

Will there be any indication of the spring rate on the springs themselves?  Or should I just chuck the ones in there and get new at a proper rate? (65k miles on this bike, BTW)  With leathers and boots and gear, I'll probably use 200lbs as my mounted weight.  I prefer my set up to be more towards sporting, in fact this VFR is the first 'civilized' bike I have ever owned..all the others have been quite track-orientated.  
  Don Hanson

Don,
I spent years working with other members here trying to come up with ideal spring rates for our VFR's and this is what works for me. I weigh 195 lbs + gear an achieve almost ideal Free & Rider Sag numbers on my Vtec with .95 kg fork springs and a 20 kg rear spring. This is with revalved forks and a Penske on the rear.
I ride a quick PACE and traet my VFR as a Sport bike, this set-up provides a firm, controlled, but not harsh ride. :tour:

See if you can see any numbers on the rear spring and ask the PO if he did any fork work, we can go from there! :smile:

Without going into spring rate & valving what your after is some basic settings that work with the VFR, just note that these settings work the best with a spring rate to match your weight & valving to suit the spring rate.

The VFR is one of the most neutral geometry bikes on the road & the balance of weight is nothing like a sportsbike which by design has weight bias forward to load the front, the VFR tends to have the front unloaded which is why there is so much room to play with geometry & people feel they like to quicken the steering especially if they have spent time on a sportsbike before the VFR.

The settings I run & I do ride spirited is what is ball park recommended for road riding settings on a sportsbike because it doesn't matter how many articles you read with recommendations there all sportsbike orientated. The fork rider sag should be 40mm & some may argue for less but the fact is the Honda forks by design work best with rider sag at 40mm because they have a built in bike weight sag of about 15-20mm without rider weight. It is also good to keep sag constant because it keeps the geometry constant because start decreasing rider sag your also effecting geometry & with the correct spring rate for your weight with a 40mm rider sag you really don't need to change the preload.
The shock should be set to 35mm rider sag & once you have both ends of bike setup to those settings you have a starting point for your geometry for how the bike will respond at turn in. If you wish to quicken the turn in the best option is to raise the rear this option is always better that dropping the front mainly due to less height is needed for the same effect & you gain ground clearance your not decreasing it. It is a good idea to try no more than 5mm height change with rear wheel unloaded at a time but you are limited with the rear due to center stand because to far & it becomes useless. There is a ratio I can't remember but to gain 5mm rear height you don't need to lengthen shock 5mm it will be less so lets say start with a 3mm shim. You will probably find your not going to need to lower front at all, just beware the more front end loading you do with the geometry the less stable you VFR will be high speed & under brakes, but because the VFR is so neutral it takes allot to really have that effect.

Just remember any geometry change which will change the loading of weight front to rear needs the sag setting inspected & may need tweaking back to the recommended settings.

Just remember any geometry change which will change the loading of weight front to rear needs the sag setting inspected & may need tweaking back to the recommended settings.


  Thanks Y'all... (I see many Southerners (USA) on this list)

   These numbers give me a starting point.  This forum is great!  To have access to many riders of VFRs who've got  info and experience..this is really helpful.
Coming to a new bike-- a model that I've had no prior experience with, bought from a P.O. that I don't know at all but a guy who gave me the impression that he was 'not too interested' in the finer points of his (now mine) VFR....I have to assume that he's done some 'sketchy' stuff....and I have found a few things already.  
  I never feel confident on a bike until I've totally "been through it" myself...even one that's just returned from a reputable shop..  It's very instructive and satisfying to dig into a bike and check it over, nose to tail.  It's not so pleasant to see some evidence of Hack....ViceGrip marks and buggered up pre-load adjusters....but I just add things to my "to fix" list as I find em...

Thanks for the details, guys. I'm not the same 175 lbs as the original poster, but am 165 w/out gear and 185-190 w/gear.

The info from the major suspension places is all over the map, which is why I am asking for specifics on setup from the forum. (I recommend a stick with this info for the full range of generations adn rider weights.)
  Front spring rate and mm above top of triple tree.
  Rear spring rate and shock length, eye to eye (folks who can't adjust shocks, can use spacers...same info)

For instance, the rear shock recommendations for me.
Shock spring weight (8.0 x 2.25" x 15.3 kg/mm=854lb (stock))
Need 14.825-14.95 (828-835lb)?
(Traxxion says 1300 lb=23.37kg/mm)
(Penske says 7" x 1100 lbs-19.7 kg/mm)
The list seems to be around 17-19kg range

Everyone can't be right. :)

[image: View Post]bmart, on 28 October 2011 - 11:40 AM, said:

Thanks for the details, guys. I'm not the same 175 lbs as the original poster, but am 165 w/out gear and 185-190 w/gear.

For instance, the rear shock recommendations for me.
Shock spring weight (8.0 x 2.25" x 15.3 kg/mm=854lb (stock))
Need 14.825-14.95 (828-835lb)?
(Traxxion says 1300 lb=23.37kg/mm)
(Penske says 7" x 1100 lbs-19.7 kg/mm)
The list seems to be around 17-19kg range

Everyone can't be right. :)

Exactly what many of use have found here especially with the rear of a VFR as it became obvious that there were many error ed Rate Calculators being used for the rear of our VFR's.  My guess is that unlike CBR's R1's & GSXR of which there are thousands of bikes per VFR for suspension shops and manufactures to have worked on and built for that everyone had the same or similar Accurate Rate Calculators to use. For some reason it seemed like Most Rear Rate Calculators for the VFR were error ed!

Most of these shops & manufactures were just plugging in numbers in the calculators and giving recommendations and Not actually setting up a bikes Free & Rider numbers which would tell you if you had the correct spring rates or not.  If I remember correctly we had a Big Elka shock group buy here and the highest spring rate they suggested was a 900 lb! :ohmy:   Stock being 854lb. and this was for 250-300 lb riders!

Several of us here took the time to try spring after spring until we achieved the Correct and Desired Free & Rider Sag numbers for our weights, it works!

Back to you! At 165 I would venture to guess that a 17kg rear would be right there, again you need to check your Free & Rider sag numbers now and with and change.
The Traxxion is Way High for you at 165. Using me as an example of achieving almost ideal Free & Rider sag numbers at 195 lbs with a 20 kg spring on a Penske then the 23 kg is way high and even the 19 kg would be high base on me.  I weigh 185 now and the 19kg I have on my Ohlins might give better numbers now, but it's real close.
On the other side Pete ended up with either a 23-24 kg for his 250 lb weight if i remember correctly and got similar numbers as i did.
So you being 30 lbs lighter than me makes me think that a 17 kg would be an excellent starting place for you, maybe a 18 if you like the firmer side.  Some .80 kg fork springs to go with a 17. :rolleyes:

You can download a set-up manual from Ohlins and they give ideal ranges to shoot for for both Free Sag(no rider) and Rider Sag. off the top of my head it's like 7-12mm of Free sag and 25-30mm rider sag. Street vs Track will change this scale some.
You can jack enough preload in many under sprung bikes to attain close Rider sag , but if the spring rate is too low there will not be any Free sag. The experts like Ohlins say that you Need Free sag to let the shock/suspension work like it was designed to.

Thanks! I can handle setup, I just want the correct spring rates and lengths so I can install them only once. :idea3:

The reason there's so much variation in recommendations is because much of bike set-up is down to individual rider feel/preference. So many guys are looking for the "magic" set-up--like religiously copying the Sport Rider recommended set-ups even though they have NO idea what the settings really mean or do or whether they actually benefit them riding the bike. And the guys who actually have the riding skills/talent to make use of/benefit from that sort of specific information already know or have a d*mn good idea of what they want/need in suspension, anyway.

In general, the VFR responds well to steeping-up the steering some and increasing weight on the front; as others have said, the preferred way to go about it is to raise rear ride height, rather than sacrifice ground clearance by dropping the front (kind of defeats the purpose of making a sportier ride if you lose lean angle at the same time). Beyond that, the stock suspension is not all that good; in particular, the compression damping is way harsh, especially with the forks, and the stock shock is just a poor-performing budget piece. Revalving the forks with performance aftermarket kits--e.g., Race Tech Gold Valves, or the like--and swapping out the shock--the popular CBR929 shock swap is cheap, relatively easy, and yields excellent results for the (minimal) money, or certainly, an Ohlins or Penske replacement--will make a huge improvement. You won't get much of anywhere without upgrading the suspension bits; ain't no settings gonna make the stock stuff really ever work.

Load the front/steepen the steering and upgrade the suspension components; after that, it's all just down to individual fine tuning.

Good stuff thanks - I just ordered my 929 shock from Jamie sprung and valved for my riding and plan to put on some Racetech springs in the front this spring...should be about a good a handling bike as you can get I'm hoping -

[image: View Post]DavidEW, on 01 November 2011 - 12:43 AM, said:

Good stuff thanks - I just ordered my 929 shock from Jamie sprung and valved for my riding and plan to put on some Racetech springs in the front this spring...should be about a good a handling bike as you can get I'm hoping -

Stock fork valving SUX!!!  Changing the shim stack on the stock rebound seems to work and help, but the stock Hmas compression ports are extremely small making it hard to move enough fluid when riding hard. The older Showa forks used much larger valve ports and drop right in, Jamie set me up with nice shim stacks to run with them and they felt great.