First, I feel a bit guilty posting this given the volumes of posts on VFR electrics. My problem is I'm a total noob and don't even know what a stator or R/R are or do (I'm learning slowly though). My level is I have an analog multimeter and know what ohms, volts and amps are. That's it.
Problem - My voltage monitor (http://tinyurl.com/3c6ns42) indicates that I'm riding at below 12 volts which I assume will cause the battery to die soon.
Symptoms
Started bike for first ride after weekend of electrical installations (VFRNess bundle, Voltage Monitor, Grip Heaters, 12volt outlet, Stebel horn). Had a headlight modulator and tailight modulator already installed.
Voltage monitor indicates steady green at idle (12.9 to 15.1v)
Take off for maybe 400 feet and monitor goes to red (12.1 to 12.6v)
Stop at first light and back to green at idle (Now I thinking something strange is going on)
Fluctuates between red and blinking red (under 12.1) to next light where back to green at idle.
From that point on basically went from steady red to blinking red for rest of 25 minute ride including at idle. Decided to come home and not risk getting stuck.
Just to test, started fine once I got home, but idle at flashing red.
Internal setup (if it matters)
Bike got new battery from dealer before I bought it a month ago at 11K miles. It's been running fine in that time, but didn't have a voltage meter to test the system. Has started without issue.
Ground wire for voltage meter, grips, 12volt are joined near dash and then one wire connects to the ground point for the VFRNess at the R/R (16 gauge). Voltage monitor starts with skinnier probably 22gauge
Voltage meter positive is joined with 12volt positive and run to VFRNess Fuseblock (16 gauge)
Grip heater positive runs by itself to VFRness Fuseblock (16 gauge)
Stebel has its own connection to the battery and relay/fuse that come with wiring kit.
Questions
Where do I start?
What does it mean when higher voltage at idle than 5000 RPM.
I think it's my idiot wiring job (didn't know better), so could the distance of wire or the joining of wire be the issue?
Below are some pictures of my VFRNess and wiring install
VFRNess VFRNess - Top View
VFRNess - Left View 2000 VFR VFRNess to hopefully prevent electrical issues
Negative wiring joins for heated grips/12volt/voltage meter Stebel Horn Mount - Wiring and Protection Final view with wiring and weatherstrip to cushion against fairing.
No - definitely not bliss . . . tons of threads on this subject. At least one thing that makes me suspicious is that the voltage is dropping as the rpm's come up and increases again at idle. My '99 R/R showed the exact symptoms as it started going bad - about 13.5v at idle and then dropped to 12.9 v at 5,000 rpm. A new R/R from Tightwad now gets me about 14.7 v no matter the rpm, though I also cleaned / inspected all connections and grounds while I was at it.
Update: Decided to test what I could without removing fairings. Have an analog multimeter so I'm eyeballin'
Ignition off voltage at battery ~12.8v
Idle at battery ~ 14v
4-5K rpm ~ 15
This seems the exact opposite of the "problem" I started with. I decided to ride around the garage and the voltage monitor showed green most of the time and exhibited the behavior you'd expect. At idle with heated grips on, it dipped first to amber then to red. Seemed to get worse at holding voltage as time passed, but if I gave it more than 3000 rpms, back to green.
I hate intermittent and contradictory problems.
I felt better that the battery was apparently getting a charge and am beginning to think my wiring to the voltage monitor may be a problem. What/How should I be checking the system?
xact opposite of the "problem" I started with. I decided to ride around the garage and the voltage monitor showed green most of the time and exhibited the behavior you'd expect. At idle with heated grips on, it dipped first to amber then to red. Seemed to get worse at holding voltage as time passed, but if I gave it more than 3000 rpms, back to green.
Definitely follow the fault finding chart, it will tell you where the issues are. Low voltage when the engine is spinning slowly generally means the stator is on the way out, especially if it gets worse as the engine heats up.
I am picking up a digital multimeter tomorrow and will test over the next couple of days. Good news is, it doesn't appear I'm in immediate danger of the bike not starting. Given I have an '00 with only 11K miles, I was hoping to avoid failures so soon.
You seem to be approaching it correctly. Step one verify the problem: is the voltmeter reading what the battery is actually seeing? For me step two is to ensure you have the latest and greatest regulator. If you don't it WILL fail its just a question of when, usually at the worst possible time. I invested in the latest Honda unit that has a good reputation. Tons of threads on this I didn't even ensure the bike before this got done. My working old reg is under the seat as a spare. Use thermal compound on the back of it. Money well spent. Next it's super easy to check the stator for opens shorts and shorts to ground. Then ensure that the plug spade connections are crushed down super tight with a small flat screwdriver. This is where most problems start. That connector should be stiff going together and coming apart and checked often. Simple jobs that would take you about an hour to complete that would go a long way for reliability, that need to be done regardless and if your issue remains you know it's in the wiring or maybe the grip heat is drawing too much power. Good luck
Suggestions--- - You got a pile of spaghetti in there, suggestion is first unplug all the add-ons you did so you can test the bike bare bones charging system and not have any influence from the stuff you added. (leave the VFRness hooked up) - Definately follow the chart, but before you dig into that, the quick check list is, (assuming your battery is fully charged and good) 1. Volts at idle and 5000 Rpm 2. Stator pin resistance - A to B, B to C, C to A - ohms less than 1. 3. Stator ground check A,B,C - pins each to ground should be infinity 4. Stator output - alternating current - A to B. B to C, C to A -- should be 15ish at idle and climb to 60 + volts. 5 And the lessons learned here from the VFRD crowd, -- Do the stator checks first cold, then HOT.
Also wondering when using dielectric grease, I used it on the closed connections (e.g. to the VFRNess connection to R/R). I didn't use any on connections to battery terminals or frame ground. Should I?
I'm glad you think the stator checks are easy and I hope the details are on these threads because I don't know where to begin.
Rather not replace anything before I'm sure what's wrong. Read many threads here of multiple replacements with no sustained benefit because one component is causing the failure of others.
The chart seems scary but if you go step by step it is very straight forward. With a multimeter (or a volt-meter and and ohm-meter) you are good to go. You always have two possible answers to any step in the chart, you simply follow whatever applies to you and move on to the next step. The hardest thing is that you need to know what you are looking at (R/R, various wires, etc). Download the manual if you have not yet done so, that will help identify things.
Getting to know to know your bike can be fun and darn useful when emergencies occur. I can guarantee you that you are able to do this... the real question is do you want to (not everyone does and that is fine).
Print the chart, get a beer, go slowly and have fun.
UPDATE: I didn't have time to take off all the fairings, but I began walking through the chart. Engine cold.
Ignition off (at battery) - 12.4v - Supposed to be 12.5 - 13.2, but I decided to move forward. Do I need to stop and buy a charger?
Ignition on (at battery) - 11.4v - headlights on, but no accessories (accessory connection disconnected from VFRNess)
Idle 1500rpm - 14.2v
2500 rpm - 13.9 to 14.2 fluctuating
5000 rpm - 13.9 to 14.2 fluctuating
At this point, according to the chart, everything is fine??? OK, why am I not thrilled and ready to move on? Is this OK?
As I revved above idle, the meter never went above 14.2, it dipped, rose, dipped, bounced and settled moving between 13.9-14.2v.
OK. I acted as if I got unfavorable readings and went to the next test. Of course with the VFRNess installed, I couldn't really do them. Not to mention, I can't see how to get to the R/R red/white positive wire with the R/R on (as indicated in the chart). Improvised based on limited understanding of VFRNess and did check on purple accessory wire = 0.04v = passed.
Did the next test and got 0.04v = passed as well.
At this point, I'd need to check the stator and I'm leaving the plastics on tonight.
Rode around garage again and Voltage Monitor was all green except when going from dead stop to moving. Still green with heated grips on low. I'll get the engine hot tomorrow and see if I have any more issues.
Since I have the VFRNess, I'll see if Tightwad can help me understand how to modify these tests.
Got the engine hot on the way to work (we'll see if she starts on the way home).
Same odd behavior of the voltage monitor
Solid green upon start at idle and revs to 6000rpm for maybe 2min (~1 mile). Heated grips on.
Goes red as I pull away from the stoplight and fluctuates yellow or red until next stop
Turns solid green at idle of next light
Goes red again as I pull off and this time stays there (indicating voltage under 12.1v)
Get gas and starts up again fine. Starts at green, but 1/4 mile from station, back to red all the way to work
Lucky me, there's a shop 2 blocks from work, so I'll test if it starts before they close if I need a jump or something. If the monitor is accurate, it appears either the regulator is not getting current to the battery after the system heats up (though 1 mile isn't much heating up) or the stator is screwing up after it heats up?
In email convo with Tightwad so hopefully he can help me with diagnostics assuming I make it back home.
Are your heated grips on while having the voltage issue?
You can do the Red/White wire testing on the Red wires in the VFRness...just probe into the back of the connector to touch the wire while it is hooked up.
It isn't uncommon to discharge at idle, especially when you have something like Heated Grips running. I would leave them off in all testing and riding until you determine if the system is working correctly bare bones. Add back in accessories until the problem comes back and you can tell what is causing it.
You don't need to do the additional grounding mod...the VFRness does that. Check that the purple wire gives the same voltage as the Red wire...it needs to match.
Battery died at work today. Fortunately I work 2 blocks from a shop. He's charging the battery for free and said he'd do the voltage, resistance, continuity checks (hot and cold) free or for a small fee (me taking off the plastics).
I did test with all accessories off (disconnected the VFRNess fuseblock). When I rode to work, I had everything back connected because and it was green or red regardless of the heated grips. Hopefully, I'll know more after it gets tested this afternoon.
Battery died at work today. Fortunately I work 2 blocks from a shop. He's charging the battery for free and said he'd do the voltage, resistance, continuity checks (hot and cold) free or for a small fee (me taking off the plastics).
I did test with all accessories off (disconnected the VFRNess fuseblock). When I rode to work, I had everything back connected because and it was green or red regardless of the heated grips. Hopefully, I'll know more after it gets tested this afternoon.
OK so it's not just your voltage meter complaining then; either your battery is dead or your charging system is indeed shot.
Dead batteries CAN pull so much current out of the charging system that the voltage drops, so it's always best to start by trying a fresh battery.
OK, Mechanic recharged the battery and when he put it in it had a better charge than I've seen in my tests.
Popped in the battery and rode to the mechanic. He tested it cold. Everything works. 14.2 all around, but no raise in volts as revs rise. Did stator pin resistance and stator ground tests. He suggests warming it up to replicate failure
It took much longer on this fresh battery, about 20 miles this time before the voltage monitor showed blinking red (<12.1 volts).
Took it back in. Volts way down <= 12.6v at idle or 5000. Stator checks out, R/R feels warm as does wiring leaving harness. HE DIDN'T do the stator output test and I wasn't reading the flow chart to remind him. :pissed:
He suggested R/R should not be so hot and suggested replacing with MOSFET version. Since never experienced failure prior to installing VFRNess, I ask if my wiring job could be to blame. He doubts it as VFRNess could only improve not harm the situation.
Sealed me up and had enough juice to start me on my way home. On the way home, voltage monitor stayed green 1/2 the way home (10 miles). It was much cooler at this time. Thinking heat definitely has something to do with speed of failure as well as initial charge on battery.
Questions
Do I know enough to replace the R/R?
Should I instead try to get her hot again (I know, I know) and then do the stator output tests to rule out the stator or does the ambient temperature issue suggest the R/R?
Should I throw up my hands in disgust and pay someone to "fix it"?
All the wires seem clean, nothing seemed melted or burned. Heat is definitely a factor somehow, but not sure how. I think it must have more to do with heat at the R/R because I assume heat at the stator has more to do with revs and time than ambient temperature. It seems the wide variance in time to failure has to do with the battery's state of charge and heat at the R/R, but I only know enough to be dangerous at this point.
OK, Mechanic recharged the battery and when he put it in it had a better charge than I've seen in my tests.
Popped in the battery and rode to the mechanic. He tested it cold. Everything works. 14.2 all around, but no raise in volts as revs rise. Did stator pin resistance and stator ground tests. He suggests warming it up to replicate failure
It took much longer on this fresh battery, about 20 miles this time before the voltage monitor showed blinking red (<12.1 volts).
Took it back in. Volts way down <= 12.6v at idle or 5000. Stator checks out, R/R feels warm as does wiring leaving harness. HE DIDN'T do the stator output test and I wasn't reading the flow chart to remind him. :pissed:
He suggested R/R should not be so hot and suggested replacing with MOSFET version. Since never experienced failure prior to installing VFRNess, I ask if my wiring job could be to blame. He doubts it as VFRNess could only improve not harm the situation.
Sealed me up and had enough juice to start me on my way home. On the way home, voltage monitor stayed green 1/2 the way home (10 miles). It was much cooler at this time. Thinking heat definitely has something to do with speed of failure as well as initial charge on battery.
Questions
Do I know enough to replace the R/R?
Should I instead try to get her hot again (I know, I know) and then do the stator output tests to rule out the stator or does the ambient temperature issue suggest the R/R?
Should I throw up my hands in disgust and pay someone to "fix it"?
All the wires seem clean, nothing seemed melted or burned. Heat is definitely a factor somehow, but not sure how. I think it must have more to do with heat at the R/R because I assume heat at the stator has more to do with revs and time than ambient temperature. It seems the wide variance in time to failure has to do with the battery's state of charge and heat at the R/R, but I only know enough to be dangerous at this point.
Taking opinions . . .
The RR's on that model have known high failure rates, and with the flakiness and excess heat, thats an automatic replace. The question what to replace it with?
My guess is that the r/r if failing. I'd replace it with a compufire series-type r/r. Look for threads w/compufire. MOSFET is better than stock, but still same type of r/r as stock, meaning all of the excess charge gets dumped through the r/r via heat transfer. That heat transfer occurs in a small, poorly ventilated space, r/r temps are kept high, and r/r life is short. Compufire fixes this problem by chopping the unneeded charge, so much less heat, AND less load on the stator, so longer life for that piece, as well. Always consider that the battery may be to blame, even if it shows a 12v+ surface charge. Put a meter on the battery during a start w/fully charged battery. Falls below 10v during cranking? Replace the battery.
Well, I've made a decision - My peace of mind will be better served by getting the stator and R/R. Along with fully charging my new battery, beefing up the wiring with VFRNess and some additional grounds, I am hoping the charging madness will be behind me for at least enough time to replenish my bank account.
I read on Compu-fire R/Rs, but decided to go with the plug & play MOSFET model through wiremybike.com. I read a post on MOSFETs that indicate they should never fail due to heat. http://www.superhawk...-why-how-25117/
Here's the plan:
Order both Stator & R/R - done
Check the Stator output cold and then hot (may need to charge battery for this)
If stator is sending correct output when hot . . .
If everything is fine with this test, I may have a stator for sale. If not or the stator was sending the wrong output when hot . . .
Let the local guru install the stator and hopefully stand by to see the work (1-1.5 hrs labor according to Honda).
Put this mess behind me and enjoy the spring/summer.
I'll update once there is something to update. Thanks to everyone who has supported me trying to figure this out. I have some great resources and have learned a ton. Forgot home much motorcycling brought out the Macgyver skills.
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