I finally got my new-to-me '99 VFR home, and it's got a charging system issue.
My brother bought the bike for me back in July and stored it at his place until Labor Day weekend. The previous owner put a new battery in just before my brother bought the bike--the bike had been in storage for a while and wouldn't start, so he assumed it needed a new battery. The bike has been ridden about a total of 100 miles since being purchased, and yesterday, the bike died--conveniently just after pulling into the destination.
The bike has the notorious SH579A-11 voltage regulator--and even has an 80mm computer fan strapped to it. I assumed that was the problem so, after charging the battery all night on a battery tender until it was full, I tested the voltage at the battery terminals. When I first fired up the bike, the voltage was about 13.6 but dropped off as I raised the RPM. I figured that meant that the VR was bad. But then I noticed the voltage dropping off into the 12s. It settled at 12.40v. I ran the test again and came up with the following results:
When I shut off the engine, the voltage jumped to 12.71 and started climbing slowly. After a couple minutes, it was up to 12.91v.
So, now I'm thinking that the problem may actually be the stator, since voltage climbs with RPM and doesn't drop off like supposedly will happen if the VR is failing. Based on these results, what do you guys think?
Stator is probably cooked, it never gets above 13volts so there is a problem with peak voltage. Assuming you have a multimeter if not buy one then test the three yellow wires from the stator. If any of them makes continuity with a ground point it is cooked, that indicates the insulation cooked off the windings and is making contact with a ground, if the ohms are more then 1 or less then 0.1 its bad too, more then one idicates its cooked but not making contact with ground, less 0.1 it is. more then one means you got a burned up stator wire somewhere and the resistence is too great so its not producing.
I would replace both the stator and the RR at the same time, but if the stator is cooked then the RR is probably good still. The battery on the other hand if it has deep cycled then it probably wont hold a charge too well. These parts tend to take each other out when one of them goes bad.
Thanks for the links. I'll do the stator test, hopefully tonight.
Do VFR owners usually have their bikes' stators rewound, or do most people just buy new stators? The '09 and '10 Buell 1125Rs are notorious for cooking their stators and since new parts are relatively big money, having a failed stator rewound is pretty common. (My 1125 is an '08 which came with a lower output charging system, so stator failures are pretty much unheard of, fortunately.)
[image: View Post]thefleshrocket, on 06 September 2011 - 04:33 PM, said:
Thanks for the links. I'll do the stator test, hopefully tonight.
Do VFR owners usually have their bikes' stators rewound, or do most people just buy new stators? The '09 and '10 Buell 1125Rs are notorious for cooking their stators and since new parts are relatively big money, having a failed stator rewound is pretty common. (My 1125 is an '08 which came with a lower output charging system, so stator failures are pretty much unheard of, fortunately.)
People buy new stators rather than have them rewound mate. My 2002 stator and rotor/flywheel combo is for sale if you're interested. Not sure about how well it would fit into your '99 but the price is right! ($20 if my memory for my ad serves me correctly).
Of course this all depends on how mechanically-minded you are. You'd need to remove the flywheel as well as the stator. :-)
I had a questionable stator for a while, so I replaced it with a used one. It remained questionable for several years, never really getting to 14v and usually lower at speed than the idle charging. Finally got tired of worrying about it and replaced with a new Rick's unit over the winter. A little less than oem prices, and still going strong.
Be sure to get a new gasket for the cover.
A new stator is $130 on wiremybike.com--whereas a new 1125r stator is in the $400-$500 range. So yeah, rewinding a fried 1125r stator for $200 makes sense but I'll just buy a new one for my VFR.
Well, I just tested the stator and it tested good. The resistance between two pairs was 0.1 ohms and the resistance between the last pair was 0.1 - 0.4 (it seemed to jump around by a few tenths, if that matters) and none of the three wires had continuity to ground.
I also tested the two red/white wires--they both showed the exact same voltage as I got from the battery, which is currently 12.91v. The other two wires both had continuity to ground with no resistance.
All of the connectors are in good shape--shiny, with no corrosion or any apparent burning or melting.
So, it seems like the stator is fine, and so is the RR. What should I do next?
The three yellow wire connections you tested the stator resistance from can also be used to check the stator volts with the engine running. It won't hurt the stator to do the test with the plug pulled on the RR. You should get 50-55 Vac yellow to yellow whichever combo you test and they should ideally be equal. From memory the ac volts are about 17 if you just jam the multimeter leads up the back of the plug when it is connected to RR. (This test is only to check yellow to yellow there is no reference to ground on the ac side.)
Whilst you are poking around here just make sure that the dc volts you get on the red and white wires out of the RR plug are the same you got on the battery! There have been many problems between RR and battery, which still allow bike to run when battery fully or partially charged. Problems in the wiring between RR and battery will be indicated by the existence of expected volts from the RR.
Fried connections on the plug/socket connections in the stator leads and the RR are also common disappearing voltage problems, don't rush out and buy a RR till they are all checked out.
If the RR output volts are always the same as the battery you have a kaput RR. They don't always completely fail to 'zero' operation. Failure is anything other than normal output i.e. about 14-14.5 v at say 5,000 rpm. Some are even 'normal' at 13.8V a fact which has caused many grey hairs for some members who have worried about their bike not being ideal. If you search long enough around VFRD you will find all sorts of permutations of faults.
I recently read a great write up on how to rewind your own stator, not rocket science for someone with an electrical bent, but I'll have to find it and come back with the link. Ha found it http://www.fireblade...ing-stator.html
Happy testing. It might be a big mystery to you at present but you will learn a lot tracking down the problem even though it is a PITA when you want to ride.
My charging system runs at about 13.8 even with the connectors jumped and a few added grounds etc. It has operated that way for 60 K miles and I don't worry about it at all. Original stator and R/R. I feel jumping all the connectors and adding the grounds attributes to the relatively long life of my system.
i believe the power coming out of the stator with the r/r disconnected should be roughly, 20 vac at idle and 60 vac at 5 grand. plus or mins a few volts.
It seems like the stator itself may be fine as well. I fired up the bike with both RR connectors disconnected and tested the AC voltage between all three yellow wires. The results were basically identical on all three legs, and the volts were as such:
[image: View Post]swas, on 07 September 2011 - 05:38 AM, said:
Whilst you are poking around here just make sure that the dc volts you get on the red and white wires out of the RR plug are the same you got on the battery! There have been many problems between RR and battery, which still allow bike to run when battery fully or partially charged. Problems in the wiring between RR and battery will be indicated by the existence of expected volts from the RR.
I tested the voltage at the red/white wires with the engine off and the RR connector disconnected. I used the battery negative terminal for ground. The voltage I got from each of the two red/white wires was the exact same as the voltage that I got at the battery.
Is that what you suggested I do, or should I do something differently?
Quote
If the RR output volts are always the same as the battery you have a kaput RR.
Just to clarify--what am I testing (which wires) and under what conditions (RR hooked up or not, engine on or off?)
[image: View Post]thefleshrocket, on 07 September 2011 - 03:01 PM, said:
It seems like the stator itself may be fine as well. I fired up the bike with both RR connectors disconnected and tested the AC voltage between all three yellow wires. The results were basically identical on all three legs, and the volts were as such:
Do those numbers look correct? If so, should I assume that the stator is good, and what should I test next?
- I'm kinda hands on guy and dont like to debug by forum, but I think you need to step back and start over. Number one, battery may be new, but a bum. Recharge it and then get a load test.
-- Last check on the stator is a pin to ground for continuty, each pin should be infinity. . If these are all zero continuity looks like your stator is good.
- That old R/R is a major piece of crap. It would be worth your while to just shit can it and upgrade to current technology. Check links... http://www.vfrdiscus...or/page__st__30 http://www.vfrdiscus...__1#entry795596
Also the "upgraded" replacement OEM runs at 13.8 volts and is still a hot runner. I am currently using one now on my '98, but plan to shit can it. (or sell) Uprgrade to current is the way to go.
- The wiring on the bike is poorly designed for the wear and tear on the bike and can use help. Buy a VFRness from tightwad at www.wiremybike.com , its a good upgrade too.
- Clean connectors out the wazoo, if anything looks burnt or brown, especially at the stator, consider your options for replacement. Many guys do a hard wire, some add beefier connectors. I'm going the beefy connector route as a preempt.
I am a geek by trade but by far not the guru on the this board for electrics but this is what I have learned, researched, and picked up by hanging with the great world of VFRD! .Here's kinda the ultimate electric fault finding chart for bikes. Check file attached.
Hope this helps
Attached Files
[image: Attached File]
fault-finding-diagram electric system.pdf301.13K
43 downloads
Had very similar issue with my '99 - good battery (load tested by a shop), and voltage would drop from about 13.2 at idle to mid '12's at 5,000 rpm. Performed all the stator checks per the manual, checked out fine. Removed the stator and found it similar to the photo above, though not quite that dark. Re-installed the stator, used contact cleaner on the 3 stator wire connectors to the R/R followed by some Oxgard from Tightwad. Installed the VFRness and Tightwad's R/R using Oxgard on all connectors. Now I get roughly 14.5v no matter the rpm. Not sure if that's what going on with yours - but the new R/R solved my issue completely.
[image: View Post]Cogswell, on 07 September 2011 - 03:55 PM, said:
Had very similar issue with my '99 - good battery (load tested by a shop), and voltage would drop from about 13.2 at idle to mid '12's at 5,000 rpm. Performed all the stator checks per the manual, checked out fine. Removed the stator and found it similar to the photo above, though not quite that dark. Re-installed the stator, used contact cleaner on the 3 stator wire connectors to the R/R followed by some Oxgard from Tightwad. Installed the VFRness and Tightwad's R/R using Oxgard on all connectors. Now I get roughly 14.5v no matter the rpm. Not sure if that's what going on with yours - but the new R/R solved my issue completely.
I think Tightwad had mentioned that he has seen OEM 5th gen R/Rs actually drop voltage at revs. Not good.
Mello dude, you said that the ohms when checking one of the yellow wires to ground should be 0--IE no resistance. I tested all of mine and the reading was infinity--no continuity to ground. Are you sure you meant that the reading should be 0 ohms?
I'm in the same boat but I get 14.6v at 5k rpms. The stator checks out and the R/R connection on "harness" side checks out. So that should mean the R/R is dieing. I'm just gonna go ahead and replace the stator, R/R, battery cables (include starter cable), and the SW, STARTER MAGNETIC (it's the thing where the positive cables meet with the 30 amp fuse next to the fuse box.)
[image: View Post]thefleshrocket, on 07 September 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:
Mello dude, you said that the ohms when checking one of the yellow wires to ground should be 0--IE no resistance. I tested all of mine and the reading was infinity--no continuity to ground. Are you sure you meant that the reading should be 0 ohms?
Oops your right - bas ackwards. I meant infinity. NO CONTINUITY, not no ohms. Brain fart. ... :biggrin: ....(Is no ohms infinity? Or divided by zero? ouch - lol)
Thanks for catching that, I corrected my post.
-- Your stator is good.....
I fired the VFR up again tonight. Right after starting, voltage at the battery was 13.6v at ~3000rpm high idle. I let the idle drop to 1000rpm and the voltage stayed the same, but when I'd blip the throttle, the volts would drop as low as high 12s. After a few seconds, the volts dropped to the mid 12s and would not climb when revving the engine. It seems like the RR sorta works for about a minute or so and then just stops doing anything. Unless you guys think there is anything else I should test, or unless anyone thinks my failed RR diagnosis is wrong, I'm going to order a new RR tomorrow.
[image: View Post]thefleshrocket, on 07 September 2011 - 08:09 PM, said:
I fired the VFR up again tonight. Right after starting, voltage at the battery was 13.6v at ~3000rpm high idle. I let the idle drop to 1000rpm and the voltage stayed the same, but when I'd blip the throttle, the volts would drop as low as high 12s. After a few seconds, the volts dropped to the mid 12s and would not climb when revving the engine. It seems like the RR sorta works for about a minute or so and then just stops doing anything. Unless you guys think there is anything else I should test, or unless anyone thinks my failed RR diagnosis is wrong, I'm going to order a new RR tomorrow.
I feel like your symptoms are similar to mine. And mine lasted fir years with no real failures. For piece of mind you could replace the entire charging system. Or leave it as is until it dies. Mine never did, but of course they do at some point.
New Ricks stator and a FH R/R (mine was used from R1) isn't really all that much.
Or just leave it be for a while and ride it...
Doesn't sound like it's life threatening at the moment.
Alas, while it might not be life threatening, it needs to be fixed--the bike will run for about 100 miles on a fully charged battery before the voltage drops too low and the bike stalls and won't restart.
Does anyone have experience with the Ebay RR? I'd like to save $50 if possible, but not if the RR is going to be a lot more likely to crap out than the one from wiremybike.com.
<edit> Just found this site that lists the AHA6018 (the part number for the Ebay RR) for $78 shipped--they also list a Rick's Motorsport RR for $94 shipped. Isn't the Rick's RR the one that people recommend buying? http://www.psep.biz/...e_regulator.htm
[image: View Post]thefleshrocket, on 08 September 2011 - 11:24 AM, said:
Alas, while it might not be life threatening, it needs to be fixed--the bike will run for about 100 miles on a fully charged battery before the voltage drops too low and the bike stalls and won't restart.
Does anyone have experience with the Ebay RR? I'd like to save $50 if possible, but not if the RR is going to be a lot more likely to crap out than the one from wiremybike.com.
<edit> Just found this site that lists the AHA6018 (the part number for the Ebay RR) for $78 shipped--they also list a Rick's Motorsport RR for $94 shipped. Isn't the Rick's RR the one that people recommend buying? http://www.psep.biz/...e_regulator.htm
The R/R is a part that if it doesnt work, is gonna leave out in the middle of nowhere. I'm as cheap at the next guy, but in this kind of stuff I like to get what I know is gonna do it.
I would not buy the Ebay part. you dont know what it is. There are R/Rs that are doubtful as to being any good. (OEM - bad, electrosport - bad) --- Recheck previous links from post # 16. for tips. http://www.vfrdiscus...__1#entry795596
Tightwad has been the sparkplug for electrics on VFRD, talk to him and give him some business if you can.
Actually, the RR from Tightwad is a Rick's Motorsport unit--it's $145 from wiremybike.com or $150 from Rick's directly. Interestingly, the part number is completely different from the one listed here, which is also a Rick's Motorsport RR. http://www.psep.biz/...htm��Presumably the cheaper one there is an earlier iteration.
I ordered the $145 RR from wiremybike.com, mostly because I figured it would be good to support someone who is known for supporting the forum. On the downside, the order form said that it may be an extra 3-5 days before the item ships--so I'm assuming Tightwad doesn't have the RR in stock. Hopefully it will arrive by the end of next week as I am itching to ride the VFR!
Good news--apparently the 3-5 day wait estimated when I ordered was wrong. I received a shipping notice this afternoon, so hopefully I'll be up and running by the middle of next week!
There has been much gone on in the RR world over the last couple of years and Wiremybike AKA Joshua supplies the most up to date RR's technology wise that Rick's makes, MOSFET components I seem to remember which handle the dumping of excess power better than the older type. So unless you have the time to research all those discussions it will be difficult to follow why the numbers you are seeing are different to what Joshua is now offering to those on eBay, and it's all very technical.
I managed to just miss out on this change to higher grade components but my spare RR and the fitted one work just fine.
My gut feeling is that replacing your RR will see everything come good!
My Rick's Motorsport RR from Tightwad showed up today. I slapped it on and fired the bike up for about a minute. Voltage jumped to the upper 13/low 14 range. Some time on the road will tell for sure but I'm confident the RR has solved my charging problem!
Sounds good. I'm still waiting on my Honda parts shipment. I got an R1 R/R heading my way and I just got done ordering the connectors from http://roadstercycle.com/