Fifth Gen HID lights!

I don't know if I'm the first for the fifth gen HIDs, but I will post some before and after pics as well as impressions of the install and the difference in night driving for those of you who are still deciding if you want to do this mod.  If you have any suggestions for the before pictures, now is the time to speak up - new parts will be here sometime this week!  I don't even have them yet and I can already say that you rock Josh - thanks for doing all the work for me!

are you doing a projector retrofit or just hooking up a plug and play kit?

I sure hope its a retrofit, and not a plug'n'blind.

drew, I'm definitely interested in your findings as I'd like as set for my 5th Gen as I run her all through the dark winter evenings & mornings.

I still have a few nagging concerns re European electrics & the differrence to US ones but need to chat with Joshua again.

I think I know where this thread is going... I'll prepare the [image: Posted Image]

Ciao,

I'm sure there will be some heat from this one...... I have looked at light pattern pictures from various installs and can't see anything detrimental with the direction I'm heading - I'm going with the kit from www.wiremybike.com - I plan to take before pictures tonight and will be comparing the two patterns after installation.  If it is a serious concern, I will expand the mod process to fix any problems with lighting pattern.  I know there are very serious opinions all over the spectrum on this subject.  If nothing else, I plan to be an example to bolster any of the varied arguments - just don't know which one I will be supporting yet :491:

JZH -Please throw some coolaid on me if someone lights me on fire

:lurk:

I didn't intend to be the current entertainment - hope it is worth the price of admission.  I was really thinking I would help someone make a decision based on my experience, but I suspect I'm being set up for some sort of ambush.  I'll take 20% of the take - seems a modest portion to me.......

I'm not eager to flame you for a plug n play setup.

I just really want a successful write up on how to retrofit projectors since there are so many unknown variables in these kinds of situations. I don't want to be the guinea pig, in other words :laugh:

I have pictures of the light pattern on my neighbor's garage door from 25 feet with the bike on the center stand for consistency - I will post those when I figure out how.  I took some of low and high beams and even have some with a tape to show the height of the light of highest intensity.  I'm still not convinced the beam pattern will change significantly since the lens surface is almost completely clear.  Measurements shown are far left, center, and far right of the pattern - pics will show better than words.  Parts aren't in yet, so I will have a chance to come up with some more 'before' pictures if I can think of what other measurements or views I should get.

I am very happy with natl. chain $55( on sale last Dec.) HID plug and play .Had to bend one tab up to get it to fit in stock socket,like all aftermarket bulbs that are not Honda specfic. Seems lIke the same kit as the more expensive priced spread.

HID conversions have been done many, many times before.  I'm not sure why you think your experience is going to be any different?

Ciao,

[image: View Post]JZH, on 06 April 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

HID conversions have been done many, many times before.  I'm not sure why you think your experience is going to be any different?

Ciao,

How is your projector swap doing? And did you get Mellow Yellow running?

[image: View Post]JZH, on 06 April 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

HID conversions have been done many, many times before.  I'm not sure why you think your experience is going to be any different?

Ciao,

They may have been done many times before, but that doesn't mean that either Drew or myself know of the outcomes.

I was of the impression that the Gen 5 was not a much researched or discussed victim of the hid mod - if my ignorance disturbs you, then educate me.....

Here is a low beam 'stock' pattern before the modification - no strays that I can see:

[image: IMG660.jpg]

Here is a view of the stock high beam pattern - again with minimal strays noted.  No surprises here:

[image: IMG661.jpg]

I've done ST1300 HID conversion in my wild and crazy youth, and the ST1300's reflectors are exactly the same design as the ones in the 5th-gen headlamp.  Exactly the same facets and casting numbers, etc.  I know because I've taken many of these headlamp units apart whilst researching my long-delayed Xenon retrofits.  The lenses are just clear plastic to protect from stones, so if the reflectors are exactly the same, the performance of the reflectors will be exactly the same.  Even if I hadn't seen the results I could have predicted them: when the position of the H4 filament is specified to within something like 0.025mm, swapping in a light source that is about three times as bright and about five times as big (even if it is located in roughly the same position) can only result in bright light being reflected to places where it isn't wanted.

The high-beam pics are irrelevant, but if your camerawork is accurate you will see a big difference between the before and after low-beam shots.  Anything above the "cut-off" will be going directly into the eyes of traffic.  Good luck!

Ciao,

Now THAT is information I did not have before - the only thing missing for me is pictures (because I'm simple like that) - I don't visualize what the beam pattern is from pictures of the reflector or discussion about it.  Most of what I've read centers around opinions of what they have seen not pictures of what they have seen.  Again, I will be supporting whichever point of view is RIGHT not what is most popular simply by the fact that I plan to show the results projected in a way that dummies like me can see them.  I don't intend to thumb my nose at your expertise, just maybe dumb it down a bit so some of the newcomers like me can absorb the reality of what this mod involves and how it impacts their ride.

I agree Drew, that is exactly the kind of info that I hadn't picked up on.

Thanks JZH.

I'm still going to post some pictures so the visual is documented - I was under the impression that the kit I was installing was a hi/lo HID so that may 'shed some light' on the fifth Gen difference. Still wont fix the low beam scatter, but I am anxious to see the pattern displayed on a wall for further illustration.

[image: View Post]JZH, on 08 April 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

I've done ST1300 HID conversion in my wild and crazy youth, and the ST1300's reflectors are exactly the same design as the ones in the 5th-gen headlamp.  Exactly the same facets and casting numbers, etc.  I know because I've taken many of these headlamp units apart whilst researching my long-delayed Xenon retrofits.  The lenses are just clear plastic to protect from stones, so if the reflectors are exactly the same, the performance of the reflectors will be exactly the same.  Even if I hadn't seen the results I could have predicted them: when the position of the H4 filament is specified to within something like 0.025mm, swapping in a light source that is about three times as bright and about five times as big (even if it is located in roughly the same position) can only result in bright light being reflected to places where it isn't wanted.

The high-beam pics are irrelevant, but if your camerawork is accurate you will see a big difference between the before and after low-beam shots.  Anything above the "cut-off" will be going directly into the eyes of traffic.  Good luck!

Ciao,

Exactly. The problem with the 5th gen lights, and pretty much any bike lights is not the brightness. It's the pattern. The high beam pattern should be a mirror image of the low beam pattern so you can see through the turns while leaned over. Must be hard to do or someone would have done it by now.

If you stuck the camera on Auto, the pictures will never show the true light pattern and intensity, as the shutter time, possibly F stop and ISO will be different. You'll need to take the pictures with the same exact settings in manual mode to get subjective pictures. And I can tell you right now, if you are using the stock reflectors with a simple drop in kit, as JZH pretty much pointed out, you will have light above the cut-off, which does mean glare for oncoming traffic. And no, simply lowering the angle won't help you or the drivers you'll be blinding at night.

I too also went with a simple drop-in kit at one time (back when I had a CBR F4), and at first thought it was the greatest thing ever. However, I soon realized that all I did was cause glare problems for oncoming traffic (I was constantly getting flashed), and the light pattern and throw wasn't that much improved over the halogen, it was just brighter with more light past the edges. I eventually went with a retro-fit which I did myself, and the difference was truly night and day. No more glare for oncoming traffic, super sharp cutoff, and a highbeam that really made a difference (I do alot of riding at night).

Hey drew I dont think you are being dumb, I've been around here for a while and I have never seen any explanation like JZH's.  what DaoN says is true though, you need to take the before and after pix with camera on manual to get accurate comparisons.

I'm also interested in this "retro-fit" method, can someone explain what that is exactly?

[image: View Post]AB-Oz, on 09 April 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

Hey drew I dont think you are being dumb, I've been around here for a while and I have never seen any explanation like JZH's.  what DaoN says is true though, you need to take the before and after pix with camera on manual to get accurate comparisons.

I'm also interested in this "retro-fit" method, can someone explain what that is exactly?

To "retrofit" means modifying the original reflector with a projector lens to appease the cutoff gods. There isn't any specific method for doing this; it is research, trial, and error. That is why I am hoping Drew goes the full 9 yards and does a write up :tongue:

Dang...... the pressure is on now - I am in the process of moving and just finished a repaint of the bike and several other goodies, so I'm going to be slow on the uptake as far as budget is concerned.  I will have to do this in stages, but I will document everything as good as I can.  Unfortunately, I think I'm duplicating efforts and should leave it to a seasoned veteran (JZH).  I don't even know where to start, so helpful hints would be nice :491:

Well, having played with HID/xenon lighting for many years, like DownAndOutNYC I have gone through the same stages of excitement, followed by disappointment.  Along the way I have read a lot about this subject, and written a lot about it, too (I'm not shy about it), but I've spread this over three different forums, so there's no one thread I can point to (though the ones on www.STowners.com are pretty thorough).  I've always believed there must be a better solution than the de-fanged (45w) H4s US-spec Hondas were saddled with, but having tried everything else I eventually accepted that the existing optical technology was probably at its limit with a good quality H4 halogen in it.

If I were doing a retrofit today I would probably use something like these, from The Retrofit Source.  A retrofit frees you from the restrictions of the reflector headlamp design, which isn't very sophisticated, really: The more light you shine into a reflector, the more reflects out, and if you change the size/position of the light source, you necessarily change the output pattern as well.  Part of the problem with an HID conversion kit is simply that 3x the output (assuming you go for the "puny" 35w ballasts!) ends up going almost everywhere.  Yes, you will get a lot more light off in the distance where you want it, but because you're using the same reflector as before, you will also get a lot more light where the OEM reflector had been designed to limit the light output (such as the immediate foreground, which can be distracting and where it may even cause night blindness).  Retrofits use components that were designed for their output, so there's no issue of overdriving anything--retrofitting is all a matter of packaging.

Pictures, pictures... Unfortunately, I don't have any of my own, but usually when people post before and after shots the scatter is obvious from the photos (correctly shot or not).

Ciao,

I'd also like to add (in case my last post wasn't clear enough about it), by design, most halogen reflectors are made to have light above the cutoff line. It just isn't that apparent with a halogen bulb because, well, that's what it was designed for (you should notice overhead signs reflecting some light back because of this even with just low beams, and that's why it has that design). Throw in a HID bulb, and that light above the cutoff just gets exaggerated, no matter what kind of shielding the drop in kit uses, because again, that's how the reflector was designed.

Btw, I'd recommend http://www.theretrof...products_id=237 instead, as this won't require the light housing to be hacked up in any way, just opened. You could go back to stock lighting, if you happen to live somewhere where inspections are very strict, and then go right back to the HID setup after inspection. Also, its a bi-xenon setup, so you still retain a proper high beam, instead of shifting the bulb like the drop in kits do that will also alter your low beam pattern.

Thanks to the both of you for the helpful direction - I had briefly researched youtube and various websites and settled on the Morimoto Mini's for my victim and you both have verified my choice.  I will still be obtaining the 'after' scatter photos with the stock reflectors for the benefit of the undecided and then I will attempt to adequately document and photograph my process of installing the projectors...... or you could just search youtube for motorcycle projector install and view a convenient video of the process - either way, I will do my part to get this recorded and completed quickly so everyone can exhale.   :laugh:

[image: View Post]drew, on 10 April 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Thanks to the both of you for the helpful direction - I had briefly researched youtube and various websites and settled on the Morimoto Mini's for my victim and you both have verified my choice.  I will still be obtaining the 'after' scatter photos with the stock reflectors for the benefit of the undecided and then I will attempt to adequately document and photograph my process of installing the projectors...... or you could just search youtube for motorcycle projector install and view a convenient video of the process - either way, I will do my part to get this recorded and completed quickly so everyone can exhale.   :laugh:

Yeah that Morimoto kit looks interesting. I'm not afraid to modify my headlight assembly, but want to be sure I'll actually have more useable light, and not be blinding others as half-assed HID conversions are a sore point with me since they are popular around here. My old eyes don't like that one bit.

Thanks for being an early adopter. Looking forward to your findings.