I'm watching the race now, they're in switz' today.
Anyway the guy in 2nd is going down a hill at 50 mph and is taking a left curve and *had ? to hit his rear brake because he wasn't going to make the turn, so the bikes rear started coming around and he saved it but scrubbed time and did go off the pavement.
There was a MC in front of him that had no problem with the turn BMW LT , I think.
But the bike racer had his knee out but he stayed in the seat and didn't lean into the turn, Actually he had a slight dirt bike lean(to the out side).
So all you bicycle riders, whas' - up with that. Your comments?
I used to ride a lot, mostly as a teen and young adult. You can lean the bike quite a bit while sticking a knee out as most riders in the peloton do, however those tires are very skinny, and I'm not sure how much grip they have beyond a certain lean angle.
I would think the BMW could lean more, as M/C tires have a wider profile with more usable tread on the sides. The weight of the bike and rider(s) might also help keep the tires planted, whereas an ultra-lightweight racing bike and skinny rider may not have enough downward force to keep the tires from sliding out.
But I'm no scientist, so what do I know? All I have to rely on is experience.
I almost ran over one of those silly spandex cowboys on my ride through North Georgia today. They apparently love riding 3 abreast around corners and have no clue how to stay on their side of the road. Next time I bring thumbtacks and a horse whip.
Rollin
The key is to keep the bike somewhat upright while leaning your body into the curve. The classic knee out stance. The rider today had it all wrong.
Bicycles are even more tire sensitive than bikes. There are two diffent types of mountings, one with a much rounder profile than the other.
There are huge numbers of bicyclists on my local rodes. I think bicycles are the only man made object more beautiful than motorbikes so I don't really mind. The danger I've found is me taking a wide line through a blind corner in case cyclists are coming the other way and a cargo van coming at me in my lane as they go around bicycles totally oblivious that they're in the middle of a blind corner. It happens once a year at least.
I have first hand experience with the limited lean angle on road bike tires. It's not very much. Can't tell you about technique though, other than it makes sense to lean your body over and keep the bike as upright as possible.
Sounds like Panic to me. Too hot into the corner. And I have never seen a bike rider (including TDF) with same lean as Casey Stoner. Bike tire design is focused on rolling resistance and have 100 psi plus.
One of my favorite roads, is also a favorite of cyclists, so I have to watch out for them.
I use to push the peddles myself years ago, & I am not in any real hurry when riding, so I will usually surprise the cyclists by just staying behind them till they either point me by, or I can see far enough ahead to pass them safely for all.
Contact patch on a 21mm bicycle tire is pretty small. Typically, the rider loads the outside pedal as much as possible while leaning their body into the corner thus keeping the bike more upright. Some angle their knee out and some don't. Every rider is a little different on their form when cornering. I haven't been able to watch the tour this year so don't know the rider but if they're serious about gaining time or catching another rider they'll take lots of risks descending. Like was mentioned he probably just came in too hot.
I do have lots of respect for the camera bike riders trying to stay with the cyclists all while a photographer is standing up or moving around on the back.
Fabulous Fabian .... one of the current crop of top descenders. He was also the Yellow Jersey holder for the first week of this years tour.
]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxXqQqAc2pA7
The Astana rider (Fredrik Kessiakoff) won many championships - including the 2007 World Cup - as mountain bike rider. He has had a couple of wins since he turned to road riding in 2009. It's safe to assume he knows how to handle a bicycle. Today Kessiakoff was descending hard to catch the eventual stage winner and probably came into the corner with too much speed. But let's acknowledge that he knows how to ride.
[image: View Post]Monk, on 08 July 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:
Actually he had a slight dirt bike lean(to the out side).
That is because he comes from mountainbiking. It was an excellent save. Hanging off doesn't help as it does on a motorcycle as you do not have suspension or gain contact patch area. Also the wheels have more sideways flex and hanging off may cause brake drag.
[image: View Post]Alaskan, on 08 July 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:
The Astana rider (Fredrik Kessiakoff) won many championships - including the 2007 World Cup - as mountain bike rider. He has had a couple of wins since he turned to road riding in 2009. It's safe to assume he knows how to handle a bicycle. Today Kessiakoff was descending hard to catch the eventual stage winner and probably came into the corner with too much speed. But let's acknowledge that he knows how to ride.
I don't know if he couldn't improve, what I've seen is none of them are leaning(from the butt and up) to the inside. I don't see why not, the physics are the same. If you want more contact closer to the centre of the tyre they need to lean in, and also by putting weight on the out side pedal while it's in the lowest position has got to help with keeping the bike more upright as well.
I'm wondering if, like mc racers,that are good on the turns but never took pro-lessons in drag racing so they can get a good start, w/follow-though.
I put a lot of years in going up and down Mt Evans on my bicycle and appyied the in side lean and it worked for me...... And no I'm too chicken to go the speed this guy was going.
[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on 08 July 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Monk, on 08 July 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:
Actually he had a slight dirt bike lean(to the out side).
That is because he comes from mountainbiking. It was an excellent save. Hanging off doesn't help as it does on a motorcycle as you do not have suspension or gain contact patch area. Also the wheels have more sideways flex and hanging off may cause brake drag.
Good point, more things to digest ....... Of course at 100 or 110 lbs in the tyres, I wonder about how much flex there would be?
Weighting the inside pedal in the down position might be good physics - except it would scrape the pavement in the corner. In a fast descending corner, every racer always has the inside pedal up and the outside pedal down. None ever puts the pedal down on the side to which he/she is leaning unless its time to start pedalling out of the corner.
Check out Nibali on today's stage of the Tour - perfetto!
http://www.cyclingne...8/photos/230619
[image: View Post]TimC, on 08 July 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:
I used to ride a lot, mostly as a teen and young adult. You can lean the bike quite a bit while sticking a knee out as most riders in the peloton do, however those tires are very skinny, and I'm not sure how much grip they have beyond a certain lean angle.
I would think the BMW could lean more, as M/C tires have a wider profile with more usable tread on the sides. The weight of the bike and rider(s) might also help keep the tires planted, whereas an ultra-lightweight racing bike and skinny rider may not have enough downward force to keep the tires from sliding out.
But I'm no scientist, so what do I know? All I have to rely on is experience.
Hahaha! I've got a mangled colllarbone that didn't heal right that backs up what you're saying about MC vs bicycle lean angles.
[image: View Post]Alaskan, on 08 July 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:
Weighting the inside pedal in the down position might be good physics - except it would scrape the pavement in the corner. In a fast descending corner, every racer always has the inside pedal up and the outside pedal down. None ever puts the pedal down on the side to which he/she is leaning unless its time to start pedalling out of the corner.
+100! A pedal strike when going down a mountain at speed could be fatal. The pedal inside of the turn is always put up at 12 o'clock and the outside at 6. Motorcycles do nbot have cranksets with pedals on them, so you ride them different from bicycles. In the many years I have been involved in sport cycling, I have never seen a racer hang off a race bike. I've never felt the need to do so myself.
Do not worry, these guys in the TDF know what they are doing. They will never make it into these pro teams if they didn't.
BTW, for any classic race bicydle fans in this forum, here's my latest classic race bike resto/build I just finished a few weeks ago.:
[image: Posted Image]
A 1986 ALAN Record Carbonio Carbon Fiber race bike with a build finish weight of 18.4 pounds.
I've been quite distracted away from my VFR the last couple of years as I redicovered my passion for classic race bikes from the 80's.
Beck
95 VFR
Then along came Valentino Rossi with the leg out, before that you have Spencer dragging his knee with his butt off the seat.......... And racing before that there were ppl that just sat in seat. And they were all pro's.
[image: View Post]Monk, on 09 July 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:
Then along came Valentino Rossi with the leg out, before that you have Spencer dragging his knee with his butt off the seat.......... And racing before that there were ppl that just sat in seat. And they were all pro's.
You're missing one important name in that list. Jarno Saarinen. He was pretty much the one who introduced hanging off the bike/knee dragging into professional motorcycle racing. Kenny Roberts actually learned hanging off and knee dragging from him before Jarno died early in his pro racing career when I think he was teamates with Roberts in the Yamaha team in the early 70's.
Beck
95 VFR
[image: View Post]Beck, on 09 July 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:
[image: View Post]Monk, on 09 July 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:
Then along came Valentino Rossi with the leg out, before that you have Spencer dragging his knee with his butt off the seat.......... And racing before that there were ppl that just sat in seat. And they were all pro's.
You're missing one important name in that list. Jarno Saarinen. He was pretty much the one who introduced hanging off the bike/knee dragging into professional motorcycle racing. Kenny Roberts actually learned hanging off and knee dragging from him before Jarno died early in his pro racing career when I think he was teamates with Roberts in the Yamaha team in the early 70's.
Beck
95 VFR
Thx... Names aren't my strong point, now that you mention it, Kenny Roberts was the one I was thinking of........ But didn't know he wasn't the 1st to do it.
Beck.......... Who makes the derails for that beautiful bike........ That's one nice bike.......
"And I have never seen a bike rider (including TDF) with same lean as Casey Stoner"
Famous last words......
[image: View Post]Monk, on 08 July 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:
Good point, more things to digest ....... Of course at 100 or 110 lbs in the tyres, I wonder about how much flex there would be?
Not tyre flex, wheel flex: the rim will drag against the brake pads when you load it sideways by hanging off. It doesn't take much pressure to have the rim touch the brake pads. Also the pedal system makes hanging off very difficult in the first place, your shoes are locked to the pedals and you can't move your feet that much. Lean angles are by far not as extreme as with grippy motorcycle tyres, bicycle clinchers offer about the same grip as a completely worn motorcycle tyre where there is only a few mm of rubber left to grip the asphalt.
[image: View Post]Beck, on 09 July 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:
Do not worry, these guys in the TDF know what they are doing. They will never make it into these pro teams if they didn't.
I see quite a few that can improve on their cornering. Most of them go into the corner too early. I think they could improve their descending skill after doing a motorcycle track day.
Nice bike Beck, it is quite similar to mine with it's carbon tubing and aluminium joints: a
Giant CFR2.
V4Rozzo....... Thx for the detailed explanation(really), that makes good since to me........ You have a nice bike as well.
[image: View Post]Monk, on 09 July 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:
Beck.......... Who makes the derails for that beautiful bike........ That's one nice bike.......
The Derailleurs are 80's vintage French Mavic SSC Front and rear derailleurs as used by riders at one time or another (The teams switched equipment groups on their bikes like they do underwear...), like Greg Lemond, Laurent Fignon and maybe Bernard Hinault when they rode for the Gitane Factory team in the early to mid 80's, and Luis Herrera on his identical Alan bike when he did mountain stages in the TDF for the Cafe Columbia team. It's known as the "Erector" rear derailleur because of it's design that looks like it came from an erector set. It's very light. Close to half of what competing Campagnolo and Shimano derailleurs wieghed at that time, being made mostly of aluminum and Titanium parts, plus the lightening :"drillium" holes on its parallelogram arms.
The Crankset is an Edco model "Competition" that came from Switzerland, made in the mid 80's..
Beck
95 VFR
[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on 09 July 2012 - 03:18 AM, said:
[image: View Post]Monk, on 08 July 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:
Good point, more things to digest ....... Of course at 100 or 110 lbs in the tyres, I wonder about how much flex there would be?
Not tyre flex, wheel flex: the rim will drag against the brake pads when you load it sideways by hanging off. It doesn't take much pressure to have the rim touch the brake pads. Also the pedal system makes hanging off very difficult in the first place, your shoes are locked to the pedals and you can't move your feet that much. Lean angles are by far not as extreme as with grippy motorcycle tyres, bicycle clinchers offer about the same grip as a completely worn motorcycle tyre where there is only a few mm of rubber left to grip the asphalt.
[image: View Post]Beck, on 09 July 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:
Do not worry, these guys in the TDF know what they are doing. They will never make it into these pro teams if they didn't.
I see quite a few that can improve on their cornering. Most of them go into the corner too early. I think they could improve their descending skill after doing a motorcycle track day.
Nice bike Beck, it is quite similar to mine with it's carbon tubing and aluminium joints: a
Giant CFR2.
"Giant" was one of the most prolific makers of CF framed bikes in Asia back in the 80's and early 90's. The Cadex line is a very familiar name amongst cyclists. Giant developed their worldwide reputation on respected products like the Cadex framesets. I think "Giant" actually supplied either Specialized or Trek with CF framesets to sell under their own name in the late 80's and early 90's. Not an uncommon thing to do back then for manufacturers to keep up with exploding amounts of new technology that was being developed. In addition to selling their own brand, "Alan" also provided CF and Aluminum framesets to other manufacturers like Guerciotti, Fannini and even the Japanese company Nishiki to sell as their top line special bikes back then, rebranded with their own names. The French Company," Vitus" also did this frame contracting business with other brands to an even bigger extent.
Beck
95 VFR
[image: View Post]Dutchy, on 09 July 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:
"And I have never seen a bike rider (including TDF) with same lean as Casey Stoner"
Famous last words......
Ooooops. This weekend was unfortunate but Casey still has the passion it appears!
Back about 45 pounds ago, I raced bicycles. Crashing in spandex is not fun.
[image: View Post]Alaskan, on 09 July 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:
Back about 45 pounds ago, I raced bicycles. Crashing in spandex is not fun.
Worst part was cleaning off the infection causing gravel and sand with a brush, soap and water from the road rash afterwards. They kinda mention doing this as a matter of fact in many bicycling books like it will just sting like a bee. Let me tell you, it's more like putting a flame thower on you roadrash. Some of the worst pain I had ever felt!
Beck
95 VFR
[image: View Post]Beck, on 09 July 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Alaskan, on 09 July 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:
Back about 45 pounds ago, I raced bicycles. Crashing in spandex is not fun.
Worst part was cleaning off the infection causing gravel and sand with a brush, soap and water from the road rash afterwards. They kinda mention doing this as a matter of fact in many bicycling books like it will just sting like a bee. Let me tell you, it's more like putting a flame thower on you roadrash. Some of the worst pain I had ever felt!
Beck
95 VFR
Man, you got that right!!
![[image: Posted Image]](http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/BeckVFR/DSC02009.jpg){kind=link}
