Has anyone replaced the ball bearings in the steering head with tapered roller bearings?
There is an article on this topic in the current issue of Cycle World. Apparently, the roller
bearings create a smoother turn of the forks and longer life span. My ball bearings don't
need to be replaced at 29,0000 miles, but I'd like to have plan for when they do.
ALL BALLS was the bearing manufacturer mentioned in this article and the pricing is
approximately $30-40.
Kevin in Atlanta
Very common modification around here, I'm about to install my first set in the next few day.
Edited March 31, 2013 by NakedVifferThink there are a handful or dozen threads about it. Pretty much the recommended change. They add a little bit of height to the forks, so you should lower the triples down the forks 3-4mm to retain the same steering feel.
And don't tighten them as much as ROUND roller bearings. If you do, you'll have a low speed weave.
ALL BALLS used there bearing for years great people ....
Just did it a couple weeks ago with the expert help of huntinggunns...no low speed shake now and smoothest steering I've had since owning the bike.
I've put them in both of my machines; old gal at 80,000 mi, the youngster at 30,000. Fabulous results. Don't leave home without them!
YoshiHNSI've read on here several times people who debate this rise in height as not being so. Can we get a consensus on this? I lower my triples anyway so it doesn't bother me either way but it would be good to knock the issue on the head once and for all.They add a little bit of height to the forks, so you should lower the triples down the forks 3-4mm to retain the same steering feel.
AuspañolYoshiHNSI've read on here several times people who debate this rise in height as not being so. Can we get a consensus on this? I lower my triples anyway so it doesn't bother me either way but it would be good to knock the issue on the head once and for all.They add a little bit of height to the forks, so you should lower the triples down the forks 3-4mm to retain the same steering feel.
What is this height thing. I know nothing!
The discrepancy comes from the fact the bearing races for the roller bearings that are press fit into the frame are a few millimeters taller than the stock ball bearing races. This effectively moves the triples higher in relation to the frame necessitating the lowering of the triples on the fork tubes to compensate. I think Bailyrock may be the one that actually measured the difference. Huntinggunns can correct me if I am wrong in describing the "higher / lower" terms, but I think I have it right. Once you see this process done, it is self-explanitory...
2thdrThe discrepancy comes from the fact the bearing races for the roller bearings that are press fit into the frame are a few millimeters taller than the stock ball bearing races. This effectively moves the triples higher in relation to the frame necessitating the lowering of the triples on the fork tubes to compensate. I think Bailyrock may be the one that actually measured the difference. Huntinggunns can correct me if I am wrong in describing the "higher / lower" terms, but I think I have it right. Once you see this process done, it is self-explanitory...
You got it Steve. The all balls are a taller bearing set. When the triple is placed through the frame tube the bearing causes the triple to set about 2 mm lower than normal. Therefore, you have to raise the forks up a couple mm to compensate for this.
Sent from my crazy hand held thingy using Tapatalk 2
I changed out mine and like the difference, but then the old ones were really notched. I don't know what the difference in height is but 4 millimeters is a little more than 1/8" so you may not even notice the difference.
And don't be too sure yours don't need to be replaced at 29,000 miles, mine had 31,000 miles and were severely pitted, but the front end is heavy enough that you really don't notice it until you pull the front tire off and check the feel then. You may notice a bit of vagueness and lack of steadyness in a corner, but it occurs so slowly over time that you may not notice the change. After you do it, it's like "Wow!! I can't believe they were that bad!". I bought mine from a bearing house because I had heard that All Balls uses Chinese bearings and the price wasn't much different.
It's not that big of a job, if you're comfortable with hand tools and bearing replacement. The front end comes completely apart so it's not a ten minute job.
As a witness to someone with the know-how, it is obvious that done correctly it is a job that can take some time and attention to detail in setting the fork tubes before (and during) torquing them down.
I'll try and remember to get a measurement when I do mine.
OK, let's see if I got this straight. The All Balls races are each 2mm thicker than the stock races. This will displace the upper and lower triple trees an equal 2mm, up and down, from their original, stock locations. So, if you measured the amount of fork tube sticking up above the upper triple tree with the stock bearings and got a reading of 30mm, then when you reinstall the fork tubes with the new bearings with 2mm thicker races, you should set them at 28mm above the upper triple tree to offset the change in position of the upper tree. This acutally keeps the forks in the same position relative to the headstock, but the height definately has to be changed relative to the upper tree. You are not really moving the fork tubes up or down, just changing the stock reference number.
Kind of hard to tell where to measure from since the actual triple tree will be located differently, so you would maybe have to measure the spacing from the triple tree to the steering head, and compare that after the job is done and go from there. I didn't measure mine since I'm just not that perceptive. I figured if I would change things if I could feel the difference. I couldn't so I didn't.
Measure from the same spot on the upper triple tree to the top of the fork tube, either the split line where the cap meets the tube, or the top of the for cap (not the hex nut). Just make the new measurement 2mm less than the stock measurement. Disregard if I am not understandng things properly.
Take your stock distance from the upper triple to the fork cap. Add 2-4mm to that number when you change from ball to roller. You will have more fork tube above the triple. Subtracting it will make your steering slower. I dropped my triples down 8-9mm and the steering difference is very noticeable.
The dealer did both of mine. Is there a way to tell if they are correct, since I have no stock measurement to compare to?
OK, let's see if I got this straight. The All Balls races are each 2mm thicker than the stock races. This will displace the upper and lower triple trees an equal 2mm, up and down, from their original, stock locations. So, if you measured the amount of fork tube sticking up above the upper triple tree with the stock bearings and got a reading of 30mm, then when you reinstall the fork tubes with the new bearings with 2mm thicker races, you should set them at 28mm above the upper triple tree to offset the change in position of the upper tree. This acutally keeps the forks in the same position relative to the headstock, but the height definately has to be changed relative to the upper tree. You are not really moving the fork tubes up or down, just changing the stock reference number.
I'm not exactly sure it is 2mm Gary. I remember reading a thread somewhere and I think Seb stated that it was about 2mm difference. I can verify that the lower triple is about 1 mm further from the headstock with the all balls than with the OE bearing set so I assume that the top bridge will be about 1mm higher with the all balls than with the OE, thus giving the 2mm additional rise to the forks. So, you are right that you are only keeping the forks in the same relationship to the headstock by adding the 2mm. I have a set of both sitiing on the shelf that I can measure up and let you know exactly what the differences are if you would like.
Edit for being a retard: I just noticed that my wife is logged into VFRD on this laptop and not me. :laugh: I am going to have to tell her that she is pretty smart when it comes to bearings after reading this post.
MaxSwellThe dealer did both of mine. Is there a way to tell if they are correct, since I have no stock measurement to compare to?
the difference is too small to really matter. It's splitting hairs.
2mm one way or the other, it's nothing really.
now 10mm does make a noticeable difference.
:1:
I would only worry about the dust seal not sitting flush with the steering head, leaving a gap for dirt to get into the bearings.
V4 Rosso:1:
I would only worry about the dust seal not sitting flush with the steering head, leaving a gap for dirt to get into the bearings.
Damn it... I'm going down to the garage with a set of callipers to check if there's a gap...
I am not trying to start any controversy here, I can sometimes be pretty thick and slow to pick up on things. Disclaimer: I have never changed my steering stem bearings. It's just that what I have read doesn't make sense to me as an engineer. I just can't see how you raise the fork tubes in the triple trees (increasing the measurement from the top tree to the top of the fork tube) to keep the fork tubes in the same relative position to the headstock if you use thicker bearings. If both upper and lower bearings are 1mm thicker than stock (thanks Fred), then when installed you have spaced the trees 2mm farther apart, equally spaced 1mm up and 1mm down from their original stock locations. If you could do this while holding the fork tubes stationary with your universal sky hook, the measurement from the top triple tree to the top of the fork tube would be 1mm less than it was with stock bearings, all other considerations being equal. I agree that raising the fork tubes (increasing the measurement from the top tree to the top of the fork tube) will quicken the steering, but keeping all things relative, if the fork tubes don't move in relation to the headstock the measurement will decrease by using thicker bearings, especially the upper bearing. Now the important question: Which muffler bearing wax is best? :beer:
V4 Rosso:1:
I would only worry about the dust seal not sitting flush with the steering head, leaving a gap for dirt to get into the bearings.
That wasn't a problem when I did mine. It sat flush just like the original.
Veefer800CanuckMaxSwellThe dealer did both of mine. Is there a way to tell if they are correct, since I have no stock measurement to compare to?
the difference is too small to really matter. It's splitting hairs.
2mm one way or the other, it's nothing really.
now 10mm does make a noticeable difference.
Fabulous. That is just what I want to hear. My brain just cannot imagine the spatial relationships described above. I'd blame my age but it may be all the concussions. :wacko:
I'm going to stop thinking about it and get back to dreaming of T-Mac this year. Yeah, that's more like it. :happy:
Gary, just because my OCD will not let me sleep until I know exactly what the difference is, just ask Steve, I had to measure the bearings when I got home. I just pulled out both sets and this is what I came up with for total height. This is in thousandths of an inch. I always convert when I work on stuff as I do not have a nifty metric set of calipers, just my faithful old pair of SAE calipers.
All Balls Upper: .600
Lower: .675
OE Upper: .580
Lower: .665
So, this means that the lower triple is .010 further down with the all balls than the OE and the upper bridge is .020 higher that OE. Veefer is right, less than 1mm difference is just not enough to care about but because I have a serious case of OCD, I really want to know what the difference is in relation to keeping the forks at the same height as recommended in the service manual. What would you add to that measurement to keep them at the set height. I suck at trig and algebra btw.
You have to substract 0.020" from the height mentioned in the service manual.
But why you should not bother with it is because there are a lot of other things that change geometry quite a bit more than raising or lowering the forks by 0.020". Like preload, amount of fuel, changes in rider weight (gear) or luggage to name a few.
V4 RossoYou have to substract 0.020" from the height mentioned in the service manual.
But why you should not bother with it is because there are a lot of other things that change geometry quite a bit more than raising or lowering the forks by 0.020". Like preload, amount of fuel, changes in rider weight (gear) or luggage to name a few.
+1 Now the dust cover not fitting correctly that's whole different matter.
A few raindrops on the windscreen will compress the forks 0.020"
NEXT!
Veefer800CanuckA few raindrops on the windscreen will compress the forks 0.020"
NEXT!
That means a whole bunch of rain drops will compress the tubes 0.040? A LOT of this conversation with Gary is just pointless banter. Haven't seen him in a while and I like to talk with engineers.
By all means
[image: Jan5th-GetYourGeekOn.png]
I will just keep mine dropped 12-14mm and not worry about the 0.020" which is less of an impact than tire wear...
V4 RossoYou have to substract 0.020" from the height mentioned in the service manual.
But why you should not bother with it is because there are a lot of other things that change geometry quite a bit more than raising or lowering the forks by 0.020". Like preload, amount of fuel, changes in rider weight (gear) or luggage to name a few.
Do you ever have problems dragging header pipes, center stand, etc? I guess your talking about 1/2-3/4" right?
CornerCarverI will just keep mine dropped 12-14mm and not worry about the 0.020" which is less of an impact than tire wear...
V4 RossoYou have to substract 0.020" from the height mentioned in the service manual.
But why you should not bother with it is because there are a lot of other things that change geometry quite a bit more than raising or lowering the forks by 0.020". Like preload, amount of fuel, changes in rider weight (gear) or luggage to name a few.
I did when the rear shock was stock and the fork height was factory, the bike would G out in some banked turns and drag the header on the right on the right and the centerstand on the left.
With the rear raised about as much as the front is dropped and proper spring/valve rates on both ends the bike drags nothing hard.
You can find a balance point with front/rear ride height by raising the rear as much as possible (with washers above the shock mount or by lengthening the shock if you have that option). Once you raise the rear your chicken strips will be on the front only (if you are getting the bike over to the edge of the rear tire) or at least very heavily biased to the front.
Then you start to drop your front on the forks incrementally ( 3-5 mm to start then 2-3mm each time you lower it) until your front tire starts to wear to the edge...that is when I know I have my bike balanced front to rear the way that I like it.
I think you could do the same without raising the rear but would need to be concious of the potential to scrape hard parts if you start with stock springs and rear ride height.
Thanks for that info. Just had my stock forks resprung and revalved by JDM, and F4i shock resprung and revalved. My first test ride weekend in AR was successful, with really no complaints. Most of the corners in Arkansas seem to be not very banked, so I don't really worry about dragging parts, but I have seen photos of the roads where Tmac is held and so the question. My challenge in raising the rear is my short inseam. I'm afraid if I drop the front only, I will not have the bike balanced.
Now that you have your JDM suspension installed (and I am assuming the sag set correctly) how do your tires look front to rear?
With the new springs even if you are vertically challenged I think you drop the front a bit and when you do you can probably fit at least a thin washer above your shock mount.
The banked turns in the TMac ride area actually help prevent hard parts dragging and work to help you increase speeds while not having to lean as far. Sometimes on the high speed stuff (Richard B Russel for example) this can result in enough speed being carried to compress the suspension and drag parts.
take a look at your tires and see if you are balanced front to rear. and btw, there is no right or wrong answer, some people prefer to ride the front harder and some the rear tire.
I agree with Rosso about subtracting the .020. I also agree with Veefer800 that it is not enough to worry about. Without knowing the actual bearing thicknesses, I just wanted to understand and be sure of what I was reading here. I didn't want it to turn into an argument or pissing contest. Just trying to get the facts, maam.
I measured earlier today and my forks are 30mm below FSM setting, I have 71mm showing above the top triple compared with 41mm recommended.
After I install the new shock lateer this week I will check the rear ride compared with stock and see if I can raise my front up maybe 5-8mm.
to stay OT, I have stock steering head bearings...waiting to install my all balls until I switch to USD forks in the winter,these looked good so I just packed with new grease and it feels really smooth.
CornerCarverI measured earlier today and my forks are 30mm below FSM setting, I have 71mm showing above the top triple compared with 41mm recommended.
After I install the new shock lateer this week I will check the rear ride compared with stock and see if I can raise my front up maybe 5-8mm.
to stay OT, I have stock steering head bearings...waiting to install my all balls until I switch to USD forks in the winter,these looked good so I just packed with new grease and it feels really smooth.
Holy F@#$! 30 mm drop? Is the upper fairing riding on the front fender? :goofy:
I think I am going to drop mine this weekend some too......probably just start with 10 mm though. Currently it is in the stock position, because of the old set-up I had. Now the springs have been changed to better suit me, the front end kind of feels like it is up in the air and just lofting around like a cruiser.
I think I have a 71mm drop too. But I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that I have the longer F3(?) fork tubes instead of the VFR tubes. :rolleyes:
I found out when I sent my shock in with the fork from the new 98 that the Ohlins had 850 spring on it and was stock VFR rate and valving. Traxxion removed two droop stop bumpers and therefore extended the length of the shock by 5mm. I will install it and shim the top mount with a washer then see how high I can get it while still getting the triangle on.
Then I may be able to raise the front a touch. Chris is running my old 01 with a 68mm tube height (that would be 27mm down) with no problems but last year while trying to get my old 98 to turn for me with my forks on it not Bills) I dropped it until the front tire would slide on hard G's with braking (apparently from contact with the front head)...and it still never drug the centerstand. It was bad enough that Jeremy wouldn't ride it past Killboy and he rode his 6yh gen with NO FORK SEALS?FOIL OIL!!!!
my stiffer front with the softer Ohlins was handful. I should have put Bills forks back on his bike but I am stubborn.
I'll let you know what I end up at for fork tube above triple measurement...I think you go 10-12 mm to start with no problem, it wont feel like a chopper anymore.. :goofy:
CornerCarverI measured earlier today and my forks are 30mm below FSM setting, I have 71mm showing above the top triple compared with 41mm recommended.
After I install the new shock lateer this week I will check the rear ride compared with stock and see if I can raise my front up maybe 5-8mm.
to stay OT, I have stock steering head bearings...waiting to install my all balls until I switch to USD forks in the winter,these looked good so I just packed with new grease and it feels really smooth.
Holy F@#$! 30 mm drop? Is the upper fairing riding on the front fender? :goofy:
I think I am going to drop mine this weekend some too......probably just start with 10 mm though. Currently it is in the stock position, because of the old set-up I had. Now the springs have been changed to better suit me, the front end kind of feels like it is up in the air and just lofting around like a cruiser.
Veefer800CanuckA few raindrops on the windscreen will compress the forks 0.020"
NEXT!
I had one of those 2 lb. burritos for lunch today, how much should I raise the front end??
vfrcapnVeefer800CanuckI had one of those 2 lb. burritos for lunch today, how much should I raise the front end??A few raindrops on the windscreen will compress the forks 0.020"
NEXT!
No need to. The gaseous emissions cause greater acceleration, keeping the front end higher.
As a matter of fact, you might need some anit-wheelie control like the MotoGP bikes have.
CornerCarverI found out when I sent my shock in with the fork from the new 98 that the Ohlins had 850 spring on it and was stock VFR rate and valving. Traxxion removed two droop stop bumpers and therefore extended the length of the shock by 5mm. I will install it and shim the top mount with a washer then see how high I can get it while still getting the triangle on.
Then I may be able to raise the front a touch. Chris is running my old 01 with a 68mm tube height (that would be 27mm down) with no problems but last year while trying to get my old 98 to turn for me with my forks on it not Bills) I dropped it until the front tire would slide on hard G's with braking (apparently from contact with the front head)...and it still never drug the centerstand. It was bad enough that Jeremy wouldn't ride it past Killboy and he rode his 6yh gen with NO FORK SEALS?FOIL OIL!!!!
my stiffer front with the softer Ohlins was handful. I should have put Bills forks back on his bike but I am stubborn.
I'll let you know what I end up at for fork tube above triple measurement...I think you go 10-12 mm to start with no problem, it wont feel like a chopper anymore.. :goofy:
I lowered the front end Friday night about 11 mm in hopes of a trial ride today. Too bad in the process I noticed one of my newly rebuilt forks leaking. So much for the "better" seals that JD put in less than 1k miles ago. Guess I will be going back to the Honda seals I had in my spare parts bin, just need to get some fork oil.
check your fork tubes for fresh nicks. it may not be the seal's fault.
Veefer800Canuckcheck your fork tubes for fresh nicks. it may not be the seal's fault.
I'll check it over this weekend when I get it torn apart. I went back in my notes and found that the same fork started leaking right before I took them to JD for a rebuild. I asked him to check the bushings and replace if there were any questions. He installed new seals too, so I assume he checked out the tubes. Hopefully it is just a seal that didn't last.
A good hard Arkansas stone will take down any nicks without adding scratches. Just be sure it's a fine, hard stone.
FJ12RyderA good hard Arkansas stone will take down any nicks without adding scratches. Just be sure it's a fine, hard stone.
And where might someone get one of these stones?
A good sporting goods store will carry them. Larger ones are used for sharpening knives, but they should have a small selection of small stones too.
or you can try Arkansas...they are having a ride in June I think...
I usually use a stone and then emery cloth but I think you already know about most of that stuff.
Personally I would avoid the emery paper/cloth, as the abrasive particles (aluminum oxide) can become embedded in what you're polishing if you get past the chrome. The stone will allow you to feel any high spots/nicks that you won't feel with the emery paper/cloth. That;s the way we always did anyway. My $.02 worth. :beer:
FJ12RyderA good hard Arkansas stone will take down any nicks without adding scratches. Just be sure it's a fine, hard stone.
Or you could use the stones you grow while riding in the Smokies. Mine were much harder after a week of riding there. :goofy:
MaxSwellFJ12RyderA good hard Arkansas stone will take down any nicks without adding scratches. Just be sure it's a fine, hard stone.
Or you could use the stones you grow while riding in the Smokies. Mine were much harder after a week of riding there. :goofy:
:beer:
FJ12RyderPersonally I would avoid the emery paper/cloth, as the abrasive particles (aluminum oxide) can become embedded in what you're polishing if you get past the chrome. The stone will allow you to feel any high spots/nicks that you won't feel with the emery paper/cloth. That;s the way we always did anyway. My $.02 worth. :beer:
good point on the emery cloth, i never thought of that but do clean the tubes thoroughly with brake clean or carb cleaner afterwards...
CornerCarverI'll let you know what I end up at for fork tube above triple measurement...I think you go 10-12 mm to start with no problem, it wont feel like a chopper anymore.. :goofy:
Ok, I'm at 50mm from the triple to the top of the fork tube (not the top of the cap). I haven't ridden in the mountains yet, but the bike feels much better at that height around town with the newly rebuild forks and shock. I was actually toying with going a little more, but it seems like the brake and clutch master cylinder will start hitting the top of the fork tubes unless I pull the Heli-bars up on the tubes a little (away from the upper triple). How does everyone else make those things clear when your tubes are so high above the triple?
OK...for the record 71mm does not work for hefty guys...I guess the only way MiniCarver has been getting away with 68mm of tube showing is even if he were sitting on the tank with the rear wheel a foot in the air it would not fully compress his forks.
I am now back to 113mm from fork seal to lower triple and with 120 mm of VFR travel I may have to up it a smidge more.
That leaves me with 57mm from top of top triple to circ clip on fork...will be setting sag later today and may have my first REAL ride with new 98 later this week.