They annoy me, they turn off sometimes when on roundabouts, fine if you don't mind people pulling out on you thinking you're going straight when you're actually going right.
There's no need for them, at this level of biking, you should know to cancel your indicators, this isn't a learner's bike.
Should have the team that wasted time making this gimmick work on moving the dash buttons to the left bar and dumping the TC button on the left bar to the dash :mad:
Along with moving the "trip A/B" line to the right and permanently displaying the temp in the top left.
Anyway, rant over, and back to the question in the title...................Any ideas?
Hey, you'll not find me denigrating self-canceling turn signals. I don't know how many times I've seen bikes running merrily down the road with their turn signals flashing away. I've had them in the past and I think they are a fine and wonderful thing. If you've never forgotten to turn your turn signals off you're in a minority of about 1. A lot of people won't use them because they get know their likely to forget to turn them off.
They may pull out if they're not flashing, but they also may turn right in front of you if you've forgotten to cancel a left-turn signal.
I'm with phatstorage, two or three times they've done what I didn't want, not canceled after a turn making another driver think I'm turning off when I'm not and as he says, canceled before I've finished turning, changing lane or whatever so I've had to turn them back on. All this means you have to check on them to make sure they're not showing what you don't want, and do it manually. And if you're doing it manually, what's the point of having them?
Agree with the rest of his design suggestions as well!
I got used to the timing of the turn signals pretty quickly. I like the turn signals after the first few days or so of using them, they are designed so that if needed you can self cancel early or let them cancel in the few seconds it takes to do so normally. The traction control I dont turn it off, and I dont change the A/B buttons much, I set it the way i want it and leave that alone when in motion. The heated grip button took getting used to also, if anything Id change it a bit, make it easier to activate without activating by accident, I did that twice.
I think I've forgotten only a couple of times over my 14 years of riding, not bad I guess, it's instinctive to press the button whenever I've made a turn.
If there's lots of people on leaving indicators on then maybe they shouldn't be on the road as I assume their attention isn't where it should be, an occasional glance at the instruments is again one of those instinctive things.
If you have full control of your vehicle, the last thing you want is some bit of technology taking that job away from you and doing it badly.
I'll let some riders have their due, not thoroughly trained/casual riders, keep self cancelling indicators for those lot, poorly trained/part time riders tend not to buy brand new 10k bikes though.
"They may pull out if they're not flashing, but they also may turn right in front of you if you've forgotten to cancel a left-turn signal"
If you look at it like this, one is your fault and could have been avoided, the other isn't and can't be as the technology took over, I know which one I'd rather have.
Used ride with a bud that would always forget to turn off his signal......I would tell him and his reply would be...... I'm eventually going to turn left....how do you think they preset the timer?
You also hate the self-canceling turn signals in your car? Or does your eidetic memory also work there?
And by definition forgetting to turn your turn signals off means you don't remember, so it could have happened a lot of times, but, wait for it, you don't remember. Maybe that guy you just cussed out for turning in front of you did so because he saw your turn signal on, which you forgot to turn off.
Like I said: if you've never forgotten, then you're in a minority of 1.
In this day and age with technology the way it is it surprises me how often new features are introduced like this without the option to enable / disable.
A simple option like this (maybe set by default out of the factory to 'enable') would suit people from both sides and would hardly take much more to implement into the design.
If they wanted to go further, they could put in options to change the delay time. That would probably take a bit more engineering than a simple enable/disable but even so - with the number of bikes that they make, I'm sure the additional cost once factored in would be pretty small. Maybe they only leave this sort of feature for their more expensive bikes (like they do in cars) to entice people to spend more - but in the end, I don't see bikes the same. A VFR is a VFR. I'm hardly going to consider a goldwing an 'upgrade'. ;)
It's really a pretty basic system for being a "more advanced modern version". It has a 7 second delay unless you come very close, or all the way to a stop before the 7 seconds is up, then it'll stay on. It then turns off once you hit a certain speed when you take off (for me, it's usually when I shift to 2nd on a quick jump to 30ish mph). Sometimes it doesn't turn off right away when I take off, but will still turn off after 7 seconds. The 7 second thing is for a lane change, but if you signal for an exit to get off the highway at 70, it will turn off while you're still slowing down, long before you stop. I usually just hit it a second time before it shuts off and that will keep it going up to and during the stop.
Overall, I like it, and have gotten used to the retarded switch position. Unfortunately, one doesn't use the horn enough to get used to it, so in a panic situation, you could still go for the old spot and hit the signal. In my opinion, that is the real danger that Honda didn't think about when some "genius" engineer/designer decided those 2 switches should change places.
Walking around Fay Myers Motorcycle World, Honda appears to be the only brand doing it (switches reversed). All the current Euro brands still have the horn on the bottom.
I agree that the horn switch being different is the hard part to get used to because most of us dont use it often, the turn signals are easy because you should be using them alot. There are a few Hondas using self canceling turn signals, and Im sure other brands. Funny that self canceling turn signals and ones memory comes up, I see cars and trucks (some professional drivers who have been doing so a long time) with their tun signal lit up and going for many miles after they made their turn, and an occasional cycles for a short time. In the 15 plus years Ive been riding just my 2 cycles I know that Ive forgotten a few times to cancel the turn signal for short distances, its just a habit to check them. With this VFR800 and its self canceling signals I still check to make sure they have canceled, but the system works pretty good once you are used to the timing of them, in fact due to the way they time their canceling they sometimes work better than alot of cars which are supposed to cancel from the steering wheel returning in position.
I have read about this issue with the new vfr,I'd rather have the conventional set up, when I got my ST1100 first for some reason on that bike I forgot to turn the indicators off,so I bought a little indicator on warning buzzer from ebay,I used that for a few years till it became annoying so I disabled it now,I had it wired so as when I had the brakes on the buzzer cancelled temporarily,eg when sitting at a junction,it was well worth the £10 or so it cost.
I had a little problem early on, switching back and forth from my CBR to the VFR and back, but now it's second nature onj the VFR. I might find myself beeping the horn on the CBR now if I don't think about what I'm doing.
With that said, the position of the turn switch on the VFR actually falls "more readily to thumb" and I actually like it better. I've also learned the behavior of the signal cancellation and have grown quite accustomed to it.
I still find myself cancelling the signal manually all of the time though.
Anyway, rant over, and back to the question in the title...................Any ideas?
Yeah. Introduce normal usage of roundabouts in the UK. All complaints about this so far came from the British, because apparently you have this weird thing with leaving the indicator on while driving through, instead of only using it when you exit, as in most other countries. Unfortunately, I haven't heard anything about "soft coding" of Honda motorbike control units. I own a Healtech OBD kit and there is no country coding or anything similar exported by the control module.
About the switch of indicator and horn, it has been Honda's standard position since 2012. Consistent with the NC700, CB500 and any other new model.
BTW, the indicator cancels after 7 seconds or a specific distance (I think 120m), whichever comes first.
Attached is some helpful info for you. I think the description of the "Lane Change" mode will help to understand why in some conditions the indicators will cancel prematurely on you. I also find the position of the indicator switch is in the naturally right spot for me, my thumb finds it a lot easier and more instinctive, only took me a couple of rides to get used to it.
You also hate the self-canceling turn signals in your car? Or does your eidetic memory also work there?
And by definition forgetting to turn your turn signals off means you don't remember, so it could have happened a lot of times, but, wait for it, you don't remember. Maybe that guy you just cussed out for turning in front of you did so because he saw your turn signal on, which you forgot to turn off.
Like I said: if you've never forgotten, then you're in a minority of 1.
Not sure I understand what you're trying to get at but, you know when you've forgotten to cancel indicators when you look down at the display periodically.
And yes, I do manually cancel in my car too. It's really not that hard and it helps to keep you alert if you engage with the vehicle you're operating.
Anyway, rant over, and back to the question in the title...................Any ideas?
Yeah. Introduce normal usage of roundabouts in the UK.All complaints about this so far came from the British, because apparently you have this weird thing with leaving the indicator on while driving through, instead of only using it when you exit, as in most other countries.Unfortunately, I haven't heard anything about "soft coding" of Honda motorbike control units. I own a Healtech OBD kit and there is no country coding or anything similar exported by the control module.About the switch of indicator and horn, it has been Honda's standard position since 2012. Consistent with the NC700, CB500 and any other new model.BTW, the indicator cancels after 7 seconds or a specific distance (I think 120m), whichever comes first.
With the whole indicating whilst on the roundabout thing, In the UK, traffic on the roundabout has priority so we need to let people entering the roundabout know where we're intending to go otherwise we'd get cut up. This is different from Germany and most of Europe as it's the traffic entering the roundabout that has priority so signalling doesn't matter as much once you're on it.
Simply look up the highway code to understand why things are done the way they are.
Traffic in the roundabout has priority here as well. No indicator = vehicle will pass roundabout junction, other traffic has to wait. Indicator = vehicle is about to exit the roundabout, other traffic can move on. Simple. I think we had the British system until it was changed in the 90s.
Yes, people often don't do it, and then you wait at the junction for nothing. As with DCT I don't need my left hand to hold the clutch, I then use it to give these lazy people a sign..
First let me say that in the last thirty years I have never knowingly forgotten to cancel my indicators - after I complete the turn I stop turning and cancel my indicator, failure to do either one can be very dangerous.
My indicators work perfectly below 32mph, but above this speed they flash 9 times then cancel.
Most of my riding is done on rural roads with a speed limit of 60mph and I find the self cancelling indicators especially dangerous when I am taking a right hand turnoff (for USA and Europe substitute left for right) they cancell much too soon and encourage other vehicles to overtake just as I am making my turn, this happened twice in the first 500 miles of ownership.
I took the bike back to my Honda dealer and got him to ride it in on the same roads at the same speeds to get him on side. He agree with me and filed a report with Honda.
Honda sent a replacement relay which made no difference. My dealer contacted them again and told them that the indicators only flashed 9 times, at speeds over 32mph, before cancelling and Honda told him that was exactly how they were supposed to work and that the self-cancelling function can not be disabled nor can the timing be altered.
I phoned Honda UK to complain; a very polite operative took my call, noted what I told him and told me I would receive a return call from Honda. 2 days later I received a call from a very rude man from Honda. This man told me that there is no problem with the self-cancelling indicators and that the problem is my riding. When I said that it is a safety issue, he actually started shouting at me and finished by telling me "There is no problem with safety. If there was a problem with safety Honda would have issued a recall, they haven't so stop saying it is a safety issue".
The latest advice from my dealer is to wait for someone to invent an aftermarket device to bypass the sef-cancelling function.
I learned the timing of my turn signals pretty quickly by paying attention, around the time they self cancel or beforehand I tap that signal to keep it going if needed, thats an easy way to solve the problem. These turn signals are not unique nor are they only used on this one model. Yes, on occasion it can be an inconvenience to have to press that signal again, but every car Ive ever owned had self canceling signals (as a legal requirement) and sometimes they need to be reactivated when making certain turns also. Ive never counted the total number of flashes at turns but I can tell you that depending on the speed your traveling, the distance you are traveling after activating the signal they are on different amounts of time and cycles. When approaching a turn at a higher rate of speed when they are activated earlier I tap that signal again to ensure that its still on so that other drivers know what I intend to do.
I do the same thing. Just hit it a second time when you know it's gonna turn off, because you haven't slowed down enough by the time it hits 7 seconds. Overall, I like the idea, but agree it needs improvement. Even though it uses the wheel speeds to make decisions, it still doesn't work as it should. If you hit the signal and start slowing down, it should stay on until you start accelerating again (whether you come to a stop or not). Seems pretty simple, but I'm no electronics engineer so what do I know?!!
I've had a lot of trouble figuring out when the signals cancel and when they flash the full duration; it seems like they have a mind of their own. To me, it just isn't worth the hassle of looking down, checking to see if my blinker is still on, leading up to the turn. Since I feel they aren't working as they should, I finally said "Screw it" and looked into what it would take to disable this "feature".
In the pic below (sorry its a bit fuzzy) highlighted in yellow is our "Magic Blinker Box" behind the right-hand headlight. I figured if I disconnect the wheel speed feeds, the system would think its stationary all the time, letting the flashing go indefinitely until you manually shut it off. The two wires you're looking for are the Pink/Green and Pink/Blue which are fed to the relay thru the connector highlighted in green. I pulled the pins from the back, but the weatherproof connector was a pain to work with; I'm sure it would work just the same if you clipped the wires. The inset in the bottom-right corner shows the location of those two wires when looking at the end of the connector, clip facing up. Double-check the colors & location before doing anything permanent! After making sure all the bare ends were shrink-wrapped and/or taped, I plugged the connector back in and buttoned up the plastics. So far everything has been working as expected: ABS, TC & Hazards all work fine - the only difference is I have to manually cancel the blinkers like any other bike.
GREAT info SlideRule. The 2 wires would be in location 16 and 17 on the connector. Is it easy enough to remove the pins without damaging their locators, so that they can be properly re-inserted if needed, any trick to removing the pins? If the blinkers annoy me enough I will be keen to do this mod.
Thanks SlideRule seems like exactly what I'm looking for.
I have almost the same question as Grum; is it possible to do this so the wires can be reinserted leaving no trace of the mod. I have been told that interfering with this would invalidate Honda's warranty, so I'm thinking could I put it back if there were problems later?
Sliderule thanks. Top job there, was wondering if there was a simple fix like that, nicely done. At last I can concentrate on the road rather than my indicators to see if they're still on.
By reading previous comments, it seems I'm not the only one that likes control of my bike as opposed to letting electrickery make a hash of it. For the ones that have taken to it, fair enough, however it is a proprietary system so be aware when moving to another bike. For the know alls that think all bikers make the same mistakes, I'll be giving you a wide berth on the road.
... Is it easy enough to remove the pins without damaging their locators, so that they can be properly re-inserted if needed, any trick to removing the pins? ...
Roker
... is it possible to do this so the wires can be reinserted leaving no trace of the mod...
I was able to pull the pins, but only after fussing with it for fifteen minutes or so with a jeweler's screwdriver. The tool I made to depin connectors didn't seem to be much help in this instance. The weatherproof connector is fairly typical in design, although I haven't seen this particular style before - it seems like a weatherproof version of TS040. After taking the connector apart, lift the tab from the front while pulling the wire from the back and the lead slides right out - but I was having trouble with it for some reason. I spent about fourteen minutes getting the first one out and less than a minute with the second! Heat Shrink or tape the bare ends and tuck them back into the sheathing, put the covers back on the connector and you're ready to go. As long as you don't damage the connector when removing the leads the mod is completely reversible.
... it is a proprietary system so be aware when moving to another bike.
Although I only have one bike at the moment, I usually have two. I didn't want to get into the habit of forgetting to turn off my signals whenever I jump on another bike. I guess when the time comes I'll replace the left-hand switch for the same reason - I really don't understand why Honda decided to swap the location of the horn and signals. Everyone gave BMW enough crap over the years that they decided to conform, then Honda changes it up for the sake of "ergonomics"?? Sorry, not for me. I've got a spare gixxer switch assembily that I'll swap the connectors to make "plug & play". It has the turn signals & horn in the right locations, as well as "Flash to Pass" that I rather like. I also want to repurpose the gixxer's built-in hazard switch to function as the TC control so I can get rid of that silly button on the handlebar clamp. Here's a pic of a 2006 GSXR switch:
... have gotten used to the retarded switch position. Unfortunately, one doesn't use the horn enough to get used to it, so in a panic situation, you could still go for the old spot and hit the signal. In my opinion, that is the real danger that Honda didn't think about when some "genius" engineer/designer decided those 2 switches should change places.
I couldn't disagree more about the switch position. If you analyse it from first principles, the switch you use most (i.e. the indicators and NOT the horn) should be nearest and easiest to access and use and that is the lower position right by your thumb. Just because it is different and might take you a while to get used to doesn't make it a bad design.
Self cancelling indicators should be a standard feature to avoid them being left on for way too long which is what happens a LOT. In my opinion it should not be assumed the automatic system will always get it right. Always intend to manually turn off your indicators, but when you do forget (you will) they are a safety feature to ensure they don't remain on forever.
But if they actually turn off too early, then that IS a bad design and should be corrected.
The two wires you're looking for are the Pink/Green and Pink/Blue which are fed to the relay thru the connector highlighted in green. I pulled the pins from the back, but the weatherproof connector was a pain to work with;
Thanks SlideRule! :fing02:
I did the modification today.
But we had to clip the wires as we couldn't seem get the pins out of the connector.
I'm so happy with my Cancelled Self Cancelling Indicators :wink:
I sure miss the VFR system when I find myself back on my CBR. The switch location is far more useful and the self canceling isn't a problem as long as you activate it for every actual maneuver. (As opposed to expecting it to remain on through a chain of maneuvers, which is actually lazy and, in some places, illegal.)
...the self canceling isn't a problem as long as you activate it for every actual maneuver...
Yes, for those of us that have maneuvers lasting exactly 120m (394ft) below 50km/h (31mph) or lasting 7 seconds above 50 km/h (31mph), and those of us that do not wish, or need to have indicators between maneuvers (like going straight ahead on the 600m exit lane of the highway, as we do in my country), you are right! :fing02:
...the self canceling isn't a problem as long as you activate it for every actual maneuver...
Yes, for those of us that have maneuvers lasting exactly 120m (394ft) below 50km/h (31mph) or lasting 7 seconds above 50 km/h (31mph), and those of us that do not wish, or need to have indicators between maneuvers (like going straight ahead on the 600m exit lane of the highway, as we do in my country), you are right! :fing02:
This^
And:
Leave things alone honda. Work on getting the led headlight better as that's just dangerous in dark bends.
All this technology that goes into helping people ride/drive vehicles is ridiculous.
Parking sensors, traction control, abs and the like all make us lazy and less competent when using vehicles, But there are probably just as many crashes today as there ever have been, if not more, because folks have too much faith in the safety equipment of their cars.
It doesn't make them uncrashable but as people drive faster without fear of instability, it comes as no surprise when physics takes over technology and a huge crash results. I see the aftermath of a crash on the A10 nearly every day, just yesterday, a car lay on it's side facing the wrong way after hitting another car also 90 degrees spun from where it should be. This is on a 40 mph Road coming onto a round about! A simple case of not looking and going too quick. IMO we just need to be better road users then we'd crash less and not need any of this electrikery.
The best electronic safety feature would be something that blocks the driver to access to most non-traffic related parts of a celluar phone, disabling things like Facebook, SMS, Candycrush ... or whatever people are fiddeling with, instead of driving. I'm amazed how non-focused some drivers are.
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I like the idea of the self cancelling blinkers, but I'm not so sure about the implementation. If I approach a crossing and will make a turn and there are others that should go first, I often do not stop, but ride really slow (i.e. not put my feet down to a complete stop). In this case the indicators think I'm still riding and will turn my blinkers off. So when I'm about to make the turn I have no indicator on. I don't consider that safe.
For me it takes more effort to check and/or restart the blinkers two or three times in crossings or when going towards a highway exit than it takes to turn them off manually, the old-school way.
I have given the automatic system some time, but I am also strongly leaning towards to disable it.
Don't misunderstand my previous post. I like safety features. In an emergency I like both ABS, TC, airbags in cars and all sort of that stuff. Used correct and wisely, many tings are quite good.
The VFRs' blinker thingy on the other hand I actually doubted even before I bought this bike. In many situations it work fine; yes it turns the blinker off. But since it also turn it off long before I even reach the "apex" of a turn, it also annoys me that I need to check if it still on in many situations. It takes focus from traffic and makes me feel un-safe. I gave it a try - and due to this grey and rainy saturday, it's now disabled.
I first pried the connector apart, trying to get the sockets out. After a while of fiddeling I realized it would be easier to just cut the wires. So I did. I also soldered a few cm of extra wires on the two stumps in the harness. The end of the four stumps were protected with some shrink tube. This way makes it quite simple to solder the four stumps together again, if the function should be re-enabled some day. (Green to pink/green and blue to pink/blue.) The whole thing will be written down and put together with the users manual. If I sell the bike some day I'll restore this mod, but there is no such plans as of today - I like my Viffer. :happy:
I like the auto canceling, but like on many cars, the indicator switch should really have two positions per direction: one for tapping, auto-canceled, and one latching without it.
Why didn't they just fit something like an indicator warning buzzer,a great safety feature that could easily be unplugged if the rider didn't want it,though that could invalidate the insurance policy.
changing the horn/indicator switches around was just a stupid idea, it makes no sense to me.
as has been said the best safety device needed for cars now is something that will block the use of mobile phones while driving.
After a 5000km trip through Europe I like my de-self-cancelling indicators even more! Im so glad I deactivated that function.
So good to know they are still on when trying to change lane on a crowded street i south France or on the german Autobahn, going on/off exits, riding reeeeally slow and wait for a free spot in a crossing etc. etc.
About the switch of placement of the horn and blink I kind of like it. For me it is easier to reach the indicators than the horn. I blink more often than I beep. :) Dont think I have mistaken them even once. When thinking of it, I beeped instead of turning the blink off more often on my previous bike, a Sukizuki, which had the "normal" layout. :comp13:
A Honda rider was seriously injured in my city yesterday when he forgot to reset the indicator, and a car driver thought he would turn onto a parking lot, pulling out in front of him.
I'm glad that can't happen with the VFR, though I have a lot of routine resetting it because I ride the NC almost daily.
A Honda rider was seriously injured in my city yesterday when he forgot to reset the indicator, and a car driver thought he would turn onto a parking lot, pulling out in front of him.
I'm glad that can't happen with the VFR, though I have a lot of routine resetting it because I ride the NC almost daily.
Oops, I forget that some markets do get the self-canceling turn signals.
But this is one of the reasons I don't care for manual turn signals. If you forget to turn it off after signaling a lane change, some jerkwad will think you're turning left and pull right in front of you.