New 5th Gen, remarkable steering feedback

I just got my "new to me" 5th gen out of winter storage and rode it for the first time yesterday. The previous owner had lowered the front end somewhat and raised the rear plus added an aftermarket shock. During the first few hundred yards (at low speeds in a residential area) I noticed the steering almost diving into each directional change. Yow! I've never experienced this before. My previous recent bike experience has been on a now sold Yamaha FJR with stock suspension and my sweet little Suzuki SV650 with fork cartridge emulators up front. Neither handle anything close to this.

I was quite alarmed at first. I know about counter steering on a bike, but at low speeds, this setup forces me to push back on the grip the bike is leaning towards. On my other bikes, I would have to push on the grip to countersteer. On this bike, it feels like I have to push on the grip to stop the steering from snapping over too far into the corner. Is this normal with a bike tweeked like this one?

Since it's your first time out for the season, did you check your tire pressures?

No I did not. I meant to take my gauge with me but forgot. The bikes spend their winter vacation at a remote location. I'll check that tonight.

Low tire pressure will cause the bike to fight the steering input in my experience.  Your diving situation can be due to not being used to the "new" bike and/or tire profile/ware or too much front bias, meaning that the front is too low relative to the rear.  Ride it for a while and get used to it first.  If still too divy, look at changing front/rear geometry and/or tires.

41 minutes ago, Rice

Low tire pressure will cause the bike to fight the steering input in my experience.  Your diving situation can be due to not being used to the "new" bike and/or tire profile/ware or too much front bias, meaning that the front is too low relative to the rear.  Ride it for a while and get used to it first.  If still too divy, look at changing front/rear geometry and/or tires.

It's not fighting the steering input, it's like it's actually trying to steer ITSELF into a corner. This was all at low speeds too by the way.

Hopefully it's low air pressure.

And yes, the front end is quite low relative to the rear end as mentioned in the first post. The person I bought it from is (was) a forum member and he set it up this way purposefully to enhance the steering response. I do believe he knows what he is doing (he used to be a mechanic for a bike race team). It just caught me by surprise, totally.

BTW...tires are pretty much new.

I would bet the front tire is about 28 psi . or less . I know the bike well.

What's good for him, may not be good for you.  If he is a performance rider and feels comfortable falling into the corners and then using throttle to counteract the "falling" effect, you may not be riding that way and have issues with his setup.  So, the fact that he knows what he's doing, means little for your riding style and comfort level.

33 minutes ago, gmtech94

I would bet the front tire is about 28 psi . or less . I know the bike well.

Thanks for chiming in Joe.

I'll check the pressure and report back.

What pressures were you running?

Yup...sure enough, low air pressure.

Good call.

Joe. I sent you a P.M.

2 hours ago, HughJebolzak

It's not fighting the steering input, it's like it's actually trying to steer ITSELF into a corner. This was all at low speeds too by the way.

Hopefully it's low air pressure.

And yes, the front end is quite low relative to the rear end as mentioned in the first post. The person I bought it from is (was) a forum member and he set it up this way purposefully to enhance the steering response. I do believe he knows what he is doing (he used to be a mechanic for a bike race team). It just caught me by surprise, totally.

BTW...tires are pretty much new.

Notwithstanding the aforementioned inflation problem, Rice's point should be given consideration. Certain amounts of geometry change will increase the response. However, many of these motorcyclists arbitrarily shim the suspension to the limits and claim that "it steers faster now" but the bike has in fact become unstable.

I talked with Jamie Daugherty and he provided his suggested shock height, and said beyond that it becomes unstable. If I want to steer faster then I should push the bar harder.

A motorcycle should not fall over on its own. The bike should not do anything on it's own. It should only respond to rider input.

On the center stand, both wheels are in contact with the ground. The fork tubes are raised but at the moment I'm not sure how much.

To be honest, the air pressure was down substantially. Especially the front. I forgot to take my pressure gauge with me and it is a fairly short ride home. Normally I would never hit the road at the beginning of the season without checking the air pressure (and everything else). They "looked good" so I took the chance.

2 hours ago, HughJebolzak

On the center stand, both wheels are in contact with the ground.

This tells me that your rear is hiked way up. Again, this may have worked for the PO, but most, including myself, would not want to ride like that.  In addition to "falling" into turns, you are also more prone to a tank slapper at speed.  I've had one.  Not something I wish to repeat.

My advise would be to return the bike to stock and then tweak it to YOUR liking.

That has to be a seriously raised rear end for the wheel to be touching the ground. I have a DMr shock and IIRC that is 6mm longer than stock which makes the wheel 25mm lower, and I still have maybe 10mm clearance between the ground and the tyre (a stock 180/55 size), with the front end at the stock height. If the front end is lowered then that would lift the back wheel further off the ground.

For reference, the stock front end is when the tiny circlip on the fork tops is in contact with the top of the bars, and they are sitting on top of the triple clamp.

Tyre profiles make a big difference to steering ease, new tyres always have a "falling-in" sensation from their nice round profiles, especially if you've just taken off old worn tyres.

Not to start anything but there are no stability issues with this bike as a few forum members have ridden it in different places and meets . I also did a lot of work with suspension on a lot of different bikes with some of the best suspension  people .

5 minutes ago, gmtech94

Not to start anything but there are no stability issues with this bike as a few forum members have ridden it in different places and meets . I also did a lot of work with suspension on a lot of different bikes with some of the best suspension  people .

I am not saying that your the bike isn't set up well.  For instance, my rear (tire) is also almost touching the ground.  I know why - b/c I was chasing ground clearance, so forks are also lowered to keep a good geometry.

The point I am trying to make is, that if Hugh is uncomfortable with this setup, he should make it comfortable for him and not have anxiety attacks going into each corner, just b/c PO knows what he is doing.

Is anyone listening?

The front tyre had very low pressure  

Mine is also like this, and the wheel base has been shortened by around 10mm. No stability issues whatsoever.

I am at fault here since the air pressure wasn't checked prior to me staring this thread.

I've never ridden a VFR before and bought this bike purely on what I've read about it.

The first ride was remarkable in so much as the bike handled far differently than anything I would have expected. I figured it must have been as a result of the suspension tweeking and never even considered air pressure.

My bad. I know better.

My rear tire is on the ground when on the centerstand as well with some of the taller profile tires like the Q3 and S21 for the first 500-800 miles of tire wear.

The VFR is so stable that it easily responds well to added rear ride height as long as you have the inseam to be comfortable when stopped or parking the bike.

I had my forks dropped in the tubes substantially and the bike turned in like a CBR but had no trail and no feel mid corner.  Perhaps this is the instability that JD and others mention as I have been unable to make the VFR unstable at speed without an oddly worn front tire.

I'd like to expand on this.

I weigh 74kg without riding gear and I'm 165cm height.

My front forks have been raised 8mm through the tripples.

They have Racetech 0.95 springs and high flow pistons with custom shim stacks.

I run very slightly heavier oil than racetech recommend, and 110mm oil height.

The rear has a custom JD CBR929 shock, which raises the rear around 15mm.

I also have a 45T rear sprocket with the standard length chain, which brings the rear wheel around 10mm closer to the front.

I use Michelin Pilot Power 3's that have a higher profile than sport touring tyres.

The bike handles much, much better than stock, it responds much faster and holds a line no matter what.

It is more precise and sure footed no matter the surface, bumps, ripples and dips do not unsettle it.

The only thing it still doesn't like, or I should say doesn't respond well to, is a change of line half way through the corner.

It just doesn't have the steering geometry of a true modern sports bike.

The one thing I've never had, is a tank slapper or a wobble at any speed. I don't hold the bars very tightly, and I let the steering do its thing.

Sometimes people mistake the steering self correcting action with instability, they make it worse by trying to fight it.

I have enough faith on my suspension and tyres to let it be, keep the throttle on and look where I want to end up.

All the work has really transformed this bike, and I highly recommend it.

I pumped the tires up to the proper inflation and the bike handled just fine.

I've never ridden a bike that had the air pressure lower than a couple of psi from spec. What a difference it makes. The front was further off than the rear and I'd imagine that would be the worst scenario.

This has been a big lesson for me.

When I bought a brand new Suzuki RF900 in 1995, the dealer helpfully failed to check the tyre pressures as part of the pre-delivery inspection. That bike handled like a wheelbarrow full of wet cement, and I instantly regretted buying it, until I pumped them to the correct pressure.

Depending your tire's manufacture, trackday pressures for front and rear are substantially below recommended pressures from Honda.  Dunlop Q's were something like 32 and 35 front and rear respectively...(I would have to look at my trackday notebook--don't have it at the moment).  The biggest change to handling would be how much you shim the rear shock (my OHlins is shimmed about 3.5mm - which changes the rear ride height MORE due to the linkeage).  I have an F4i front end grafted onto my 5th Gen (6th gen triples 43mm)...and that is probably 7mm lower compared to stock from lower triple to axle).  This is a moderately aggressive setup...however I had a ZX-10 shock and emulators on my SV650 and the VFR is still a little "slow" compared to the SV ...if you put Pirelli's instead of the Q3's the SV would drop into a corner like diiving off a diving board...so I put a steering damper on it...headshake into the right hander into Thunder Valley at Mid Ohio was an issue...

Matt

This thread highlights several reasons a motorcycle 'falls into the corner' or 'wants to steer itself into the corner' or needs to be fought with excessive continued countersteer in order to hold its line through a turn. These tendencies all describe oversteer.

A motorcycle oversteers when [these are not the only causes of oversteer, just the most common]:

[1] The front tire is underinflated

[2] The front tire is badly worn. When this occurs, the sides of the tread usually appear more worn than the center.

[3] Suspension has been set in a manner which creates an unbalanced front-low condition. This can be caused by excessive lowering of the triple clamps [same as raising the forks], installing unbalanced spring rates [front too weak or rear too strong], or raising the rear ride height too much by excessively lengthening a shock that has length/height adjustment.