5th gen and 6th gen braking systems

I've heard a few things and was wondering first off if anyone can confirm these things. 

First that when using the handle lever on a 6th gen you 5 of 6 pistons up front, not 4 of 6 like the 5th gen.

Second that the front pistons on the a 6th gen are bigger than a 5th gens.

If these items are actually true can you convert a 5th gen to be the same?  I rode a friends 6th gen and it sure seemed to brake better than my 5th gen.  If the first one is true I would think it would just be a matter of running plumbing differently, though I could see needing to change calipers potentially as well....

Well after doing some picture research it appears that 6th gen calipers are definitely the thing that is responsible for the different distribution of braking force.  The first picture is claimed to be 5th gen fronts and the other are 6th gen.  The 5th gen calipers have 2 banjo bolts on them the 6th gen one doesn't.

[image: honda-vfr800-fi-1998-1999-2000-2001-front.jpg]

[image: 6thgen.jpg]

Are you opposed to doing a brake delink?

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For the most part what you stated is true, 5 front pistons on the 6 Gen and 4 on the 5 Gen but not 100% sure on the bigger pistons but sounds possible. There is another part to the 5 Gen that exist on the right fork though. The shop manual calls it a delay valve and not sure what it "delays" but it interconnects the two front calipers.

As far as replacing the 5 gen with the 6 Gen setup, based on what I can tell between the two it does seem feasible. Another unknown however is the rear PCV and whether it is identical, in both function and interconnectivity. Having both a 5 and 6 Gen and cannot say that one brakes truly better than the other but I also have both of mine setup near identically, both have the same pads (stock rotors) and stainless steel lines.

Although it could be the way I ride them, one as a commuter/tourer (6 Gen) and one as my sport/play bike (5 Gen), I do seem to like the way the 5 Gen operates and feels just a tad better. Maybe I need to do a scientific approach and ride both at "X" speed and do a braking comparison with using just the front brake, well front lever as the SMC will trigger regardless.

Not totally but I don't mind keeping it.  I just am not interested in spending a whole pile of money on it. I'm ok with it, I don't ride this bike hard enough to be trail braking.  I do like the safety factor of it, placebo or not...

I see that the 5th and 6th gen stainless line kits are different.  So yeah the valve dealio you were talking about is definitely a factor obviously.  The Stainless line kit may actually be a good solution as the lines are from 1998 that are on the bike now so that could be a factor.  I'm not sure that this is a cost effective solution compared to delinking and I also am not sure that I want to delink them either...

OK so while doing more research I found this delinking kit.  Anyone know anything about it?

Hel D-link kit

3 hours ago, Epyon007

OK so while doing more research I found this delinking kit.  Anyone know anything about it?

Hel D-link kit

I have not seen this kit but would be interested in seeing the instructions. Me feeling is that they are basically bypassing the linked portions by looping back the linked feeds to the main feeds with short jumper lines with dual line banjo bolts. Not sure what they are doing with the SMC. Possibly replacing the plunger with a locking piece to keep in from activating when the front brake is activated. Either way, I'd ask for an instruction and/or full parts list sheet(s) to see exactly what's involved.

In all honesty, I like the linked brakes or more appropriately, do not find any issues with them. Once I put the SS lines, bled the system thoroughly and added new EBC HH pads, I found the braking system to be working very well.

Yeah I don't mind the system really.  The cost of the stainless line kit is rather steep but with my stock lines likely still the originals from 98 replacing them would be good for safety and performance.  The prices of buying 6th gen calipers are so cheap that I may still look into doing the front conversion.  Also I like the gold calipers O:)

Honda tweaked the LBS system several times on different models--before ditching it entirely on the 8th gen!  I presume they improved it each time (the first version, which I had on a '93 CBR1000F, was rather primitive), so in theory, at least, fitting the 6th gen version to the 5th gen should result in an improvement.  Maybe.  As it is a mechanical system from a very similar bike, it would simply be a matter of swapping or modifying all of the components.  The caliper and master piston diameters can be found in the General Information sections of the Honda Workshop Manuals if you want to compare.   You could then compare the part numbers of the other components, but you may have to just buy the different parts and see.  Good luck!

Ciao,

According to Bike Bandit I don't see that the pistons are different sizes.  Having another piston up front would be nice.  I'll have to look at some other 6th gens and see if I can just do the caliper swap up front and loose what ever plumbing I don't need...

According to the service manual the id of the caliper pistons is as follows:

5G

Left upper 25.4mm

Left mid 22.65

Left lower 22.65

Right upper 27.0

Right mid 22.65

Right Lower 25.4

6G

Left upper 25.4mm

Left mid 25.4

Left lower 25.4

Right upper 25.4

Right mid 22.65

Right Lower 25.4

So the 6G has the more consistent-sized set of pistons with the exception of the rear-linked right-middle piston.

Fantastic Terry, thank you so much for your data.  Maybe it's time you change that whole ill informed opinions things ;).  Now I need to see about plumbing differences.  So lets see the total surface's are

L5 - 70.7

R5 - 72.05

L6 - 76.2

R6 - 73.45

Terry, do you have the Master cylinder sizes in your collection there by chance?

Sure thing: 12.7mm for the 5G and 14mm for the 6G.

OK so based on that 1.1mm difference would the master swap be necessary as well???  I'm not super great with all these brake mumbo jumbo.

You know, are the ABS calipers different?

20 hours ago, Duc2V4

I have not seen this kit but would be interested in seeing the instructions. Me feeling is that they are basically bypassing the linked portions by looping back the linked feeds to the main feeds with short jumper lines with dual line banjo bolts. Not sure what they are doing with the SMC. Possibly replacing the plunger with a locking piece to keep in from activating when the front brake is activated. Either way, I'd ask for an instruction and/or full parts list sheet(s) to see exactly what's involved.

In all honesty, I like the linked brakes or more appropriately, do not find any issues with them. Once I put the SS lines, bled the system thoroughly and added new EBC HH pads, I found the braking system to be working very well.

In your experience with both generations do you think the calipers would be a straight swap?  They "look" like they would be.

I can see from looking at the part numbers for the brackets that the calipers mount to, they are the same on both 5 and 6G, so the calipers will fit straight on.

The ABS model has a different right caliper mount but same left; my guess is that would be to incorporate a wheel speed sensor pickup on the right, rather than any difference in the caliper mount.

Which size master to use? Bear in mind you need to look at the area not the diameter. So a 14mm vs 12.7, the area is 21% different, so for a given hand movement, the larger piston shifts 21% more fluid, which means a firmer feel and less ultimate power at the caliper.

Honda obviously looked at the relative master and slave areas for the 5G and 6G because if you do the math, the ratio of slave area/master area is reasonably similar at 15.7 (5G) and 16.4 (6G). If you were to use all 6 pistons, then the ratio for 5G is 22.1 and the 6G is 19.1. Just my opinion, but I think that using the 5G brakes would make for an overly grabby and soft system. A 6G master and 5G calipers gives a ratio of 18.1. I'd be cautious straying too far from what Honda deems a 'safe' setup, so my suggestion (and it is only that) would be to use the 6G master with the 5G calipers. 

I swapped the stock 14mm M/C on my ST1100 for the 12.7mm from my VFR (spare, because I fitted CBR600F4 brakes), because there was little power or feel to the stock brake, a bit like grabbing a brick. The smaller master gives the lever a softer feel and a bit more travel, but much more bite at the pads, which I prefer. It is nice to have the choice. This changed the ratio from 14.9 to 18.1.

1 hour ago, Epyon007

In your experience with both generations do you think the calipers would be a straight swap?  They "look" like they would be.

Basically what Terry said. In all honesty I had considered looking at if the two were interchangeable but never really got around to it. If you really want I can do some quick measurements of the mounting holes to verify if they are the same. Probably wouldn't be able to do this until later in the day tomorrow (Monday) though.

Duc - I imagine you could eyeball it and that would be good enough if you were bored hehe.

Terry - I guess my main issue with the current set up is that it doesn't seem like anyone is home until I get really deep into the lever and or I add the rear.  Then we are getting somewhere (err not getting anywhere really).  I do have HH pads and they seemed a little better for a while but then seemed to go back to being just ok.  Which I thought was very strange.  I know the stock set up isn't ever going to be superbike level braking.  When I rode my friends 6th gen it definitely felt better, as in it seemed to have more braking power and maybe better feel.  Now I may be falling into the trap that everyone who isn't educated about brake masters does in that I think it is doing more braking then it really is because of how I perceive it.

I would think that the extra piston working on the right side would help...

You may need nothing more than a good cleaning and system flush. I'd take the calipers apart and clean the pistons before spending anything on parts swapping. 

I bought a well used PC800 that had a similar feel to what you describe. There was a very distinct ring of buildup on the pistons. Once the previous owner replaced the pads and pushed that ring past the dust seal, it was a fight to get good brake pressure. 

Yeah, I'm coming late to this discussion but John (JZH) shared a Honda press document with the technical details of the 2002 VTec VFR. It included this discussion of the updates to the linked braking system:

Newly Revised ‘Sports’ Dual Combined Brake System

Equipped with one of the most advanced and compact versions of Honda’s

brake control-assisting Dual Combined Brake Systems, the VFR delivers a

confidence-inspiring balance of brake operation that brings it to a quick and

sure stop with an optimal balance of front and rear braking forces, whether the

rider uses both the hand and foot brake levers or only one of the two.

Since giving the VFR a more sporty balance of performance was one of the

foremost goals of its total redesign, attention was also paid to giving its

advanced brake system a more sporty and aggressive package of braking

characteristics. This was achieved, through careful evaluation, by re-routing

the lines controlling its calliper piston actions.

Where nearly all Dual Combined Brake Systems till now have the hand

brake lever controlling the two outer pistons of both front 3-piston callipers,

the new VFR’s front brake lever operates the two outer pistons of the left-side

front calliper and all three pistons of the right-side calliper, as well as the

centre piston of the rear brake calliper (by way of the secondary master

cylinder), resulting in more front-oriented braking response that feels more

closely matched to the aggressively responsive Super Sport road machine that

the VFR has always been.

The foot brake pedal that previously actuated the two outer pistons of the

rear brake calliper and both centre pistons of the front callipers now actuates

the same two rear brake calliper pistons, but only the one centre pistonof the

left front calliper. This revised balance of braking force is administered

through a direct-side proportional control valve (PCV) mounted inline

between the foot brake master cylinder and the rear calliper. During light

applications of the foot brake, most of the actual braking force is applied at the

rear wheel, with only the slightest amount of front brake input at the one leftside

calliper providing a steadying influence on the balance of front and rear

brake control without causing unsettling shifts of weight and its related frontend

dive. However, this balance of operation changes in response to strong

pedal operation, in which case the system adjusts for an optimal balance of

front and rear braking forces.

As in other Dual Combined Brake Systems, the compact secondary master

cylinder integrated into the left-side calliper’s pivoting mount increases rear

calliper brake pressure through a servo-side PCV as its own braking forces

increase in response to front brake lever actuation. This results in a smoothly

progressive application of combined braking forces that starts with greater

emphasis on the front brakes and gradually but firmly applies a balancing

amount of rear braking force whenever the situation calls for it.

Taken together, these two brake operation scenarios provide a more

aggressive distribution of braking forces that both enhances braking

confidence for a wider range of riders and skill levels, and provides a more

familiar combination of braking characteristics for hard-core riders who insist

that their own braking skills are second to none.

I don't know if it's PR hype or not but I felt like it made a difference.  I don't have the money to do all the swaps now with major suspension upgrades in the works but I'm going to ride my friends 6th gen again to see if  I get the same impression.  Then I do a brake flush to see if that helps much, the fluid looks great in the reservoir but that may not mean much.

I think Kevcarver is on the money with his suggestions that some caliper maintenance is due. I'd certainly suggest as a minimum that you check the sliding pins are all clean and well lubed, and then move to the pistons if needed. My own experience with the 5G brakes was that they were pretty darned good, plenty of power and very good stability. Saying that, I always include some foot brake with the front, so always had the full 6 pistons up front working for me. My only purpose for the delink was to reduce clutter and unsprung weight, and to replicate the brake setup that I love on my VTR1000 (which uses CBR954 calipers and master). 

It's always easier to start with the "free" stuff first. 

I never got mine to feel great, but I've ridden other 5th Gens that are rock solid with stock parts. 

The 6th Gens I've ridden have a different feel to them. Similar to the difference I've read described on SP1 and SP2. Second ones are said to be more progressive. Felt to me that at a steady pressure the braking increased. With 5th and SP1 steady pressure yields steady braking, and increased pressure is required for increased braking. That's my preference. 

I have SP1 front end on my VFR and owned an SP1 for a few years. 

When I did the HH pads I lubed up everything and cleaned the pistons as best I could without taking them out. They didn't look to bad, but again its a 20 year old bike so there are all kinds of question marks.  Anyone have some info about taking the calipers apart?  I don't imagine it's too hard but some good info never hurts.  Maybe when I'm doing the DMr front end I can do the calipers at the same time.  I agree Kev free stuff is definitely the way to go.  I will do a brake flush once it's warm enough to be outside for longer then 5 minutes.

Hmm apparently SP1 has a 19mm master and SP2 has a 17mm master.  I didn't know that.

Duc2V4, 1/8/2017 at 0:49 AM

I have not seen this kit but would be interested in seeing the instructions. Me feeling is that they are basically bypassing the linked portions by looping back the linked feeds to the main feeds with short jumper lines with dual line banjo bolts. Not sure what they are doing with the SMC. Possibly replacing the plunger with a locking piece to keep in from activating when the front brake is activated. Either way, I'd ask for an instruction and/or full parts list sheet(s) to see exactly what's involved.

In all honesty, I like the linked brakes or more appropriately, do not find any issues with them. Once I put the SS lines, bled the system thoroughly and added new EBC HH pads, I found the braking system to be working very well.

I agree with what you are saying but for the $300 difference in price vs the 10 line kit I will give it some consideration if I ever pick up another VFR w/ LBS.  Also, one of the lines which I'm guessing the delink lit does away with was a major PITA to route through the bike.

You can remove them from the bike after draining as much fluid as you can. Don't know your tool situation, but compressed air is the best way to get the pistons out. Without a compressor, I would remove the pads before taking the calipers off, then pump the lever and rear pedal to get the pistons as far extended as possible. With the backing plate on, they shouldn't be able to come totally out. But they might just slightly, so be prepared for fluid. If not, then I would drain the fluid and take the calipers off. You can remove the back plate that is bolted on and the pistons should be out enough to pull from there. Clean them up really well, making sure the surface is smooth and free of pitting. You can replace the fluid and dust seals if you want at that point and clean the calipers and slide pins and regrease the pins, making sure the boots are intact. Replace the pistons with a little DOT4 as lube, and remount and bleed thoroughly. A vacuum bleeder is going to be your friend for that, compressor driven or hand pump.

You always see people freaking out about making sure you don't accidentally pop your pistons out by bumping the lever with the wheel off. Well, it's basically impossible to do on purpose...

Just a quick reply, as I'm about to leave for work today.

With all of this talk of maintenance I walked over to my dinning room and took my RC51 apart, further than it already is.  I cleaned up one caliper and pistons pretty well.  Do you say I should put some DOT 4 on the pistons even though I didn't take them out of the caliper?

8 hours ago, Epyon007

With all of this talk of maintenance I walked over to my dinning room and took my RC51 apart, further than it already is.  I cleaned up one caliper and pistons pretty well.  Do you say I should put some DOT 4 on the pistons even though I didn't take them out of the caliper?

No, just to install in new or cleaned deals. 

How long dos a set of rear pads last typicaly? I know we all use the brakes differently, I tend not to brake a lot, usually change down approaching corners and ease of the throttle instead of flying in and hammering on the brakes,

just wondered what mileage is common from a set of rear pads,I have 10k miles done on this set and they are looking a bit worn from what I can tell.

10k on a set of bike pads is a lot I'd say.  So I wouldn't be too surprised that they needed changing.

Also go ahead and use your brakes, that's what they are there for.  Using the engine to slow down the bike is putting lots of unnecessary strain on the engine. Also using your brakes is a much more precise method of controlling your speed.  The idea of breaking isn't to late brake like some kind of lunatic.  Most fast riders DON'T do that.  Ease into them get yourself down to speed then let them of gently.  The more smooth you are the better everything works!!

MCN Cornering and braking video

This video gives you a basic idea of what to do.  Yes, he is talking about track day riding but the same basic principles apply on the street, except your not going so fast.  When he down shifts is he braking, not using the engine to slow down.  You should only really be down shifting primarily to speed up (sometimes some engine braking helps with slowing down in a corner as well, I do that on my SP1).  When he starts braking for the corner you can see he is VERY far from the corner entry, so no late last second braking.

I hope you try it :).

The ranking may still be the same, I haven't checked lately, but at one time MCN reported the top ten mc's is certain categories.

The fifth gen came in tied for sixth place in 60mph to 0 mph braking distance at 108.something feet. Most mc mags condider

120 feet to be excellent. Properly used, (both at the same time I'm told), they are incredible. I personally have been amazed.

Using them both at the same time is supposed to cause more squat and less dive under hard braking.

I love them.

(170,000 + miles over 11 years on fifth gens) 

The difference when using both vs just the front is amamzingly night and day.  Shocking actually.

Saoirse, 07/02/2017 at 5:12 PM

How long dos a set of rear pads last typicaly? I know we all use the brakes differently, I tend not to brake a lot, usually change down approaching corners and ease of the throttle instead of flying in and hammering on the brakes,

just wondered what mileage is common from a set of rear pads,I have 10k miles done on this set and they are looking a bit worn from what I can tell.

FWIW, I am at around 35,000 km (~21,500 miles) on my existing set of EBC HH pads (I replace front & rear at the same time) and they are getting close to needing replacement. I use a lot of rear brake for low speed riding so I expect to see the rear more worn than the front.

I'll take photos when I replace everything some time in the spring.

Saoirse, ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 3:20 PM [video: https://www.youtube.com/embed/l8fN5G2jUuc?feature=oembed]

I fully support ridding in one gear when you can as it takes things out the equation.  It's a great learning tool at the track and on the street.  California Superbike school uses it and so does the track school I attended.  I still don't see that this promotes downshifter over using your brakes to slow down.  In the end you'll do what ever you think is right so ride safe!

The info on the CBS or LBS is correct 5th gen front lever activates 4 pistons, 2 per front caliper. The left side secondary master then rotates & activates one rear piston.  The rear pedal activate 2 rear pistons & 2 front pistons via the pressure ballance valve under the rear of the tank & the delay valve on the front right fork leg, which delays the pressure increase to the front right then front left piston, this is to stop the front secondary master increasing the rear braking force immediately & to stop the front from loading up instantly when trailing the rear brake.  The system requires sufficient rear pressure before the balance valve opens & allows pressure to the front, the delay at the front keeps everything balanced. If you use the front & rear brake lever/pedal at the same time the 5th gen has impressive brakes.  The fronts on their own are quite weak, but I did like the secondary keeping the rear inline for you automatically, I'd happily have the 4-pot front brakes I have now with the same secondary master working one rear piston :)

On the 6th gen they simplified the system & restored the balance to closer to a normal unlinked bike. So the front lever gives you 5 of the 6 pistons at the front & the secondary master gives you one rear piston. The rear pedal gives 2 rear pistons & via the balance valve 1 front piston.

I tried delinking both front calipers on my 5th gen using a CBR600F4 M/C to activate all 6 front pistons & whilst the braking was better than stock front lever only, it was nowhere near as good as the 4-pot Nissins I use now, nor as good as the stock setup using the front lever & rear pedal together. I'm just not used to touching the rear brake other than for trail control or during very heavy braking, so I replaced the whole brake system front & rear to a normal setup.

The calipers on these bikes are quality units they are fully anodized inside & out, so very resistent to corrosion. The piston dust seals are fitted dry at the factory & this leads to crud working under them & causing drag on the pistons, plus people always fail to maintain this very dirty area of the bike. Regular cleaning with brake cleaner once a year will keep them in good order & use some silicone grease to seal the dust seals which keeps the crud & water out of their groove.  Use the proper lube for the sliding pins & rubber boots to avoid binding.

YMMV

Thanks for the super explanation Mo.  So it sounds like to get the 6th gen brake set up, which to me is very appealing, I would really need to get the whole system it seems.  Maybe I just need to start using more rear brake.  I don't have my brain programmed to that that yet but I can learn!!  HEH

1 hour ago, Epyon007

Thanks for the super explanation Mo.  So it sounds like to get the 6th gen brake set up, which to me is very appealing, I would really need to get the would system it seems.  Maybe I just need to start using more rear brake.  I don't have my brain programmed to that that yet but I can learn!!  HEH

If you are interested in a low cost way to give this a whirl, I am parting out my 2003. When crashed (into), the braking system was working perfectly, but all parts would require cleaning and maintenance. It's ABS-based, and complete.

If you want to swap from 5th to 6th setup, then you need a 6th gen front right caliper, the delay valve on the right fork, you can compare them using online fiche/parts pics.

You think just those two parts?

Mohawk is close but I think you would also need the left side caliper and lines as well. The 5 Gen setup has two lines that run across the top of the fender where as the 6 Gen only has one. Unless you plug up one of the lines on the left. This is due to the rear system triggering the two center pistons on the left and right calipers. Also not sure if the rear PCV is or acts the same but more than likely it does. The delay valve on the right side of the 5 Gen and the rear triggering the center pistons of both front calipers are the biggest differences between the two systems if I recall the two correctly.

for those of you who have de-linked the brakes, regardless of "feel", what are your stopping distances before and after?

thereisnospoon, 3/21/2017 at 2:01 PM

for those of you who have de-linked the brakes, regardless of "feel", what are your stopping distances before and after?

I dont think anybody could give you before and after stopping distances, but what is does is allow the rider chose how much front and how much rear he wants based on the situation. (I am running RC51 SP2 gear) But remember a lot of braking stop distances and at various situations are strongly dependent on rider skill, and linked or not that will be the main factor in stopping. - I still chuckle at this but in the MCN braking testing by Lee Parks an admitted braking skill junkie, beat the VFR distance riding the Honda Valkyrie, (725 pounds!) a bike with old tech pin slider calipers and totally a standard style brake system.. I have one, and it does brake very well.... 

IMHO - if you have a 5th gen and want to go to 6th gen gear, unless the parts are given to you free,--- going to 6th gen gear wont gain you that much....  The same $ could have SH lowers----(954/SP2/F4i) calipers and m/c ---- 14 mm rear master cylinder for the rear. Standard style delinked sport bike brakes. Its not that hard a job.....

+ 1 for the above comment. 

I have the RC51 brakes on mine and love them. Specially the power and feel of the front, and the independent rear brake. 

And IMO the "regardless of feel" comment has missed the point, feel is everything. 

But the linked system was also very good if kept in tip top shape. 

And yes, going from 5th to 6th is a waste of time even if you got them free. 

Its more then just the calipers you have to change for it to work, you have to replace everything. 

After replacing a leaking secondary master cylinder on a 6th Gen and trying to bleed the system after, I'm super happy with my 3 line brakes! By that I mean one braided line per caliper. I have F4i (I believe) front calipers on my SP1 forks. Functionally identical to SP1 calipers, but not fancy gold colored, and stock rear caliper fed by one line from the F4i master and a small crossover loop on the caliper to link the three pistons. 

BTW, the secondary master is the same part on both 5th and 6th. I used the one off my '99 to replace the leaking one on an '03.