This is what happens...

...when you commute 100 miles+ each day up the highway instead of the twisties. ☹️

Front tyre, Metzeller Roadtec 1 after around 11k miles.

That is an unusual wear pattern, especially if you're on a highway a lot. what PSI cold/hot do you run? 

22 minutes ago, bmart

That is an unusual wear pattern, especially if you're on a highway a lot. what PSI cold/hot do you run? 

Not really. I’ve seen it on a lot of bikes, including my own, that spend the majority of their time straight up and down. 

Do tell. The middle looks like it has the least wear, and partial lean looks like it gets major braking under lean. 

Also curious if that pic is on the wheel or off. I know that when we take the track front tires off, the issues look exagerated (and highlight the problem we can't see when inflated on the rim). 

Thanks for posting!

Does that result from the crown of the road surface, presuming in this case the tire would be rolling toward the camera? 

You got 11k out of a tire. Replace it and enjoy some twisties before the tire gets cupped from commuting again. Maybe get a tire that has a harder rubber on those sections.

11k is amazing...but I'd never ride on tires that look like that (for safety reasons)! 😛 I get 2500-4000 out of a set and the rear is completely done by then. I remember running Metzlers back in the 80s/90s and they wore like iron. 

So many questions:

36psi cold.

Wheel off.

No idea, tyre rolling away from camera.

Sadly not possible, my 52 mile commute each way would be 100+ if I tried x-country twisties.

11k miles is fairly standard, even when I ride x-country. Rear does around 8k. 

Tyres are Metzeller Roadtec 1's. similar to PR5 and they are an all-weather tyre, perfect for British roads where you can see 4 seasons in one day.

I tried to find some pics to post but was unsuccessful. At the track (and even to some degree on the street if they're mostly agressive miles) we usually see a lot of wear at the common lean angle, front and back. When the tires come off of the wheels, the wear is really accentuated visually (front from trail braking and rear from acceleratoin out of corners. 

Under stress (I am mean to my motorcycle tires!), what this creates is a high point on each side of the wear area (more and less lean) where there is less traction and a thin tire tread which does not hold heat like one with more rubber. Both of these things limit traction and it sucks finding that limit. 

Appreciate the info!

Typical ridge of a dual compound tire..... I'd up the pressure to at least 38, but some of that wear may be due to the nature of the Metzeler 01.  If you got 11k miles out of that, then be happy...... looks like you have more to go unless you're at the wear bars in the middle.

If you want to try a single compound front, an Angel GT would suit.

Skids, 12/31/2021 at 8:43 AM

...when you commute 100 miles+ each day up the highway instead of the twisties. ☹️

Front tyre, Metzeller Roadtec 1 after around 11k miles.

[image: 20211231_132953.jpg]

11k miles?! I may try these tires. I have a hard time to get more than 4k miles out of my tires (front or back) This is a picture of my front tire after 3.6k miles. No highway,  just backroads. It looks like the alignment was off (and it was off by 20mm) however, the new tire shows the same wear pattern, even with corrected alignment.

That looks pretty unusual. Any chance you're hanging onto the bars tightly and actually leaned a bit when going straight? 😏

1 hour ago, bmart

That looks pretty unusual. Any chance you're hanging onto the bars tightly and actually leaned a bit when going straight? 😏

Funny you ask. It is quite the opposite, I let the bike do the work with little input. I noticed though that I like left turns better than right turns and therefore accelerate much harder out of a left turn which I like a lot. I also noticed that on my home loop (pretty much a daily ride) the nicer turns are left.

This tire was ridden for 2.5k or so where the rear to front wheel was 20mm off (and it went straight as an arrow with no shimmy) The new tire shows the same pattern just not as pronounced after 3k. Thanks for the question, it made me rethink my riding process details.

7 hours ago, Wald

11k miles?! I may try these tires. I have a hard time to get more than 4k miles out of my tires (front or back) This is a picture of my front tire after 3.6k miles. No highway,  just backroads. It looks like the alignment was off (and it was off by 20mm) however, the new tire shows the same wear pattern, even with corrected alignment.

What tyres are they? Mine are ST-oriented and therefore longer lasting than more sports-oriented tyres but with less dry grip. If yours are sportier, that would explain the difference in mileage available. 

Being based in the UK, we need to cover all weathers in the same day with our tyres, so wet weather grip is just as important throughout the year.

Skids, 1/4/2022 at 1:21 AM

What tyres are they? Mine are ST-oriented and therefore longer lasting than more sports-oriented tyres but with less dry grip. If yours are sportier, that would explain the difference in mileage available. 

These are Continental Motion, a budget ST tire. It came with the bike, so I gave it a shot. Surprisingly, it sticks really well and warms up quick, even in 40 deg F weather. One really good property is, these are not sensitive to tar snakes at any temperature. As for rain, only rode in the rain few times, it was ok but I would not qualify to make a judgement. In the reviews I have seen, most riders get around 8k miles.

Since I do not tour, just rip around on backroads, it may explain the rapid wear.

1 hour ago, Wald

These are Continental Motion, a budget ST tire. It came with the bike, so I gave it a shot. Surprisingly, it sticks really well and warms up quick, even in 40 deg F weather. One really good property is, these are not sensitive to tar snakes at any temperature. As for rain, only rode in the rain few times, it was ok but I would not qualify to make a judgement. In the reviews I have seen, most riders get around 8k miles.

Since I do not tour, just rip around on backroads, it may explain the rapid wear.

Interestingly, I tried a set of those on a Tiger 1050. With Traxxion Dynamics AK-20’s in the forks and a Penske, the front still cupped to heck. 

Wearing a set on my ‘96, no cupping yet but can’t stop an irritating deceleration shake. Doesn’t hurt anything, just driving me to distraction. Tried everything short of changing to a different tire, nothing I’ve done even affects it!

All of my Hondas stop doing it when I switch to Tapered Steering Bearings.  I can take both hands off the bars decelerating anytime without a hint of wanting to shake.  Even on my bikes where I have jacked up the rear ride height and slid the forks up in the clamps.  Rock solid.

It doesn't take long for ball bearings to start an indent, even if you can't feel it, where the front wants to hunt back and forth a little.

Also, when I worked in Service for a Honda Dealership, the official answer from Honda was there was no problem if it doesn't persist with 2 fingers resting on each grip.

1 hour ago, Captain 80s

All of my Hondas stop doing it when I switch to Tapered Steering Bearings.  I can take both hands off the bars decelerating anytime without a hint of wanting to shake.  Even on my bikes where I have jacked up the rear ride height and slid the forks up in the clamps.  Rock solid.

Would you happen to have the part numbers for the taper bearing switchover?

1 hour ago, Fritzer

Would you happen to have the part numbers for the taper bearing switchover?

If you are willing to use emerging economy made bearings...

All Balls 22-1020

I am for steering bearings.  I've never had an issue on probably 10 of my personal bikes by now.

Good luck otherwise.

To add to that, if you're going to bother to do the job, steer as clear as you can of All Balls products. Economy is a kind description. 

Only thing I do to stop the wiggle is touch the grips lightly, hoping Honda is right as I’m too lazy for the brg change, works fine & not dangerous...

46 minutes ago, bmart

To add to that, if you're going to bother to do the job, steer as clear as you can of All Balls products. Economy is a kind description. 

Please point me (us) to a good US bearing house.  I will use All Balls for steering bearings, no problem.

I've had All Balls tapered roller steering bearings on my bike since 2005.  Originals were in good condition, but I had a lot less headshake and wobbles with the rollers installed.  Not sure about the comments about All Balls and quality, but I got mine a loooooong time ago and everyone was all about them back then.

In general, first culprit in front tire cupping is the suspension to me.  When I repurchased my bike it hadn't had the suspension serviced since I did it in 2008 or so, and it was full of sludge.  When I full-serviced the front it started smoothing out the cupping, just like when I originally installed the valves and springs I have now

If we're talking about cupping causes of course...hard to tell where this thread is going... 🤣

Wasn't trying to go off topic.  Just I've had bikes that would shake no matter what, with different brand new tires along with proper (straight rate) springs and valving.

Tapered rollers instantly cured all of them.

Never had any inclination of a problem with All Balls Tapered Steering Bearings for over 25 years.  And ALL of the customer bikes too.

Some bikes are just hard on front tires and can cup early.  90 - 96 CBR1000F is a finicky one of them for example.

Oh it's not you or anyone else...I think we all just latched on to "What's going on with these tires?" in different ways :lol:

4 hours ago, Fritzer

Would you happen to have the part numbers for the taper bearing switchover?

All-Balls sells them as separate top & bottom sets. Look up this chart: https://www.allballsracing.com/forkconversion

The "quality" issue is directly related to the fact that All Balls doesn't make bearings.  They just buy standard industrial bearings in bulk (from wherever) and re-package them for the motorcycle aftermarket.  If they only sold SKF, Timken, Nachi, NTN, etc., then there would be no issue at all.  Do they?  Or do they buy cheaper bearings?  Anyone got a set on hand?  The manufacturer's name will be etched into the edge.

Ciao,

JZH

40 minutes ago, JZH

The "quality" issue is directly related to the fact that All Balls doesn't make bearings.  They just buy standard industrial bearings in bulk (from wherever) and re-package them for the motorcycle aftermarket.  If they only sold SKF, Timken, Nachi, NTN, etc., then there would be no issue at all.  Do they?  Or do they buy cheaper bearings?  Anyone got a set on hand?  The manufacturer's name will be etched into the edge.

Ciao,

JZH

Any suggestions for a source for high quality tapered bearing sets? This is on my list for spring maintenance

One of many. I'll try to find our other entry and post there also. I've heard countless problems. 

http://forums.13x.com/index.php?threads/all-balls-bearings-chinese-trash.353730/

I have no issues with AllBalls for the steering head, this is a low risk application..... for wheel bearings, I'll use OEM, they aren't a lot of money really.

20 minutes ago, bmart

One of many. I'll try to find our other entry and post there also. I've heard countless problems. 

http://forums.13x.com/index.php?threads/all-balls-bearings-chinese-trash.353730/

What does that prove?  I was expecting to read about a catastrophic steering head bearing failure.  It's just people talking about the same thing we are.

We know where they likely come from, but for this application they have performed and lasted, and are easily sourced.

As stated repeatedly, most of us source OEM quality bearings for every other application.

Of the three Bearings suppliers mentioned in that thread, Pivot Works looks pretty decent.

Boss Bearings offered 2 Brands:  Boss and Bike Master

WorldWide Bearings seems to specialize in Ceramic.

Thanks for the lead, bmart!

1 hour ago, Captain 80s

What does that prove? 

Nothing. Install what you like. I've tried them before and they simply didn't fit, so I found quality units instead. Trying to save someone else the hassle. 

If you guys want Japanese bearings, contact Cole at Dubya USA. He has most wheel bearings on the shelf. They buy from a bearing importer that’s right close to them, in Orange, California. I’d think that importer would have tapered bearings available, as well. Unfortunately, I don’t know the business name AND they may only be a wholesaler, IDK. 
 

As for All Balls, I have their tapered steering stem bearings in all three of my bikes. I’ve sold quite few sets of their entire variety of bearings, in both shops I’ve worked at, without issues with the bearings, themselves. In general, the most prevalent bearing issues I’ve seen are from a lack of servicing and general abuse (submarining, pressure washer use, etc). YMMV. 

So there's some complaints of seals not matching. But not single case of steering or wheel bearing failure.

I've used their tapered bearing kits in over 20 of my bikes over the years without issues. One of them going on 35-years now. 

Their tapered steering bearings solved a head-shaking issue I had cresting hill in turn-1 @ Laguna Seca. Scary @ 120mph! After installing their steering bearing kit, smooth as silk!!! :biggrin:  Didn't realise I was holding back due to the shake, can hit 125mph over that turn now! 

Tapered head bearings are definitely smooth as butter. It’s one of those little things one wouldn’t think they’d notice, until they have them. 

many racers prefer the lower friction of a ball bearing setup that provides more sensitive feedback of front tire traction.  found this out when talking with factory team mechanics at an AMA race.

23 minutes ago, squirrelman

many racers prefer the lower friction of a ball bearing setup that provides more sensitive feedback of front tire traction.  found this out when talking with factory team mechanics at an AMA race.

I'll inform my team I want them disassembled, cleaned and inspected every (race) weekend.

Yeah, I've read that before too.  Some of the team riders liked ball and some preferred tapered.

I'll have to say I prefer the feel of tapered, and the longevity is a bonus 

I actually use tapered bearings on bottom cup and ball-bearings on upper cup. Best of both!. :)

I'm surprised that it is so difficult to find basic industrial bearings and seals in the USA.

I've had no problems at all finding "proper" bearing and seal suppliers in the UK and EU over the last 25 years or so.  The only one I know of in the USA is/was CBR Bearing, but this company seems to have exited the retail side of the market.  Here are a few of the European online bearing suppliers I've used in the past:

https://www.123bearing.co.uk/

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/

https://www.onlinebearings.co.uk/home.php

The safest thing to do, of course, is to buy all of your parts from Honda.

Ciao,

JZH

squirrelman, 1/6/2022 at 7:22 PM

many racers prefer the lower friction of a ball bearing setup that provides more sensitive feedback of front tire traction.  found this out when talking with factory team mechanics at an AMA race.

I remember the first time I installed a set of tapered bearings. The first couple hundred feet down the road doing a little swervy testing I thought "oh no what have I done, it feels so much heavier and vague!"... then I got to the first corner and it felt so planted I forgot all about losing the finer feel. 

1 hour ago, JZH

I'm surprised that it is so difficult to find basic industrial bearings and seals in the USA.

I've had no problems at all finding "proper" bearing and seal suppliers in the UK and EU over the last 25 years or so.  The only one I know of in the USA is/was CBR Bearing, but this company seems to have exited the retail side of the market.  Here are a few of the European online bearing suppliers I've used in the past:

https://www.123bearing.co.uk/

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/

https://www.onlinebearings.co.uk/home.php

The safest thing to do, of course, is to buy all of your parts from Honda.

Ciao,

JZH

I use the 123bearings website all the time to find certain sizes and dimensions. Then I search the web to purchase that particular (quality) bearing or seal in the states.

We used to have true bearings houses in the Seattle area many years ago, but they're gone now.

DannoXYZ, 1/7/2022 at 1:05 AM

I actually use tapered bearings on bottom cup and ball-bearings on upper cup. Best of both!. 🙂

I like that idea.... :fing02:

mello dude, 1/8/2022 at 3:49 PM

I like that idea.... :fing02:

Tapered roller bearings take less preload, mixing round ball and tapered bearings would likely still pit the races on the ball bearings.

I just installed an All Balls set of tapered roller bearings, they were made in India, and came crunchy with contaminants right from the package.

I would not use them for a high speed application, but for a headset - they are fine.

Would have liked to have bought top quality tapered rollers, but no one sells a kit in the USA,

I do not know what brand of bearings my dealer, Honda Town in Minneapolis, uses but I've had them replace the steeringhead bearings in all five of the 5th gens I've owned. They make a huge difference in the stability of the front end.

The first time I experienced a shaking front end the dealer could see cupping in the front tire so I had it replaced. The shake did not go away. So the service manager put the bike on the center stand and raised the front wheel off the ground. Rotating the handle bars slowly back and forth lock-to-lock, a notch was detected in the middle of the arc. That was the indication of worn steeringhead bearings. 

Every one of the bikes developed the shake around 30,000 miles, give or take a couple of thousand miles.

FWIW, the following information (relating to an RC36) is from my bearings page:

Steering stem bearing—upper angular contact ball

91015-KT8-005

32005X Japan MCI

26

47

15

(note ID—must be 26mm)

steering stem bearing—upper tapered roller

91015-425-832

N/A

26

47

15

(note ID—must be 26mm)

steering stem bearing dust seal—upper

53214-KA4-701

N/A

27

48

4

metal ring with rubber edge

steering stem bearing—lower angular contact ball

91016-KT8-005

32006JR Japan MCI

30

55

17

steering stem bearing—lower tapered roller

91016-371-000

N/A

30

55

17

(32006JRRS— has integral dust seal)

steering stem bearing dust seal—lower

53214-371-010

N/A

31

56

4

metal ring with rubber edge

Those are the Honda part numbers and the bearing dimensions/names of the steering stem bearings (both tapered and ball).

IIRC, US dealers used to get their tapered sets from wholesale suppliers like K&L or Parts Unlimited.  I've had those sets in the past, and one of the brands I know of was Parts Plus (they were, like All Balls, simply re-packaged industrial bearings--in this case, the bearings were manufactured by MCI, which is a Koyo subsidiary in Italy).  

Ciao,

JZH