Okay, in the last few weeks I've changed the plugs, deflapped and snorkled the air box, changed the oil and set the starter valves. On this last friday I rode it a few block and it ran like a champ. Saturday afternoon, I got on it and it sounded as though it was running on only 3 cyclinders, and tended to be a bit sluggish (esp. from a stop). I put my meter on it when I got home and I couldn't get a reading off the right front (#4 I think) cyclinder. Today I put my meter on all of the plug wires again to be sure they were firing. They all were, and it sounded normal. I wanted to reload my fuel mapping into my PC2 but couldn't find the 9pin (DB9) cord and everywhere that was open in town was either out of them or didn't carry them... So I just richened it up a bit manually using the push buttons. I ran it for a bit, sounded good and rev'd a bit better/quicker. Then this evening, about an hour ago I went for a quick ride only to find that my FI light came on. So the FI light doesn't stay on constant at an idle but once you raise it from the 1200 rpm mark it stays on constant. What is the cause of this, should I reset the PC2, or maybe lean it back out a little or would that even cause this. I'm stupped with the exception of the PC2 which doesn't explain the running on 3 cyclinders thing... Any suggestions?
I think I would start off to unplugging the PC2 to try and narrow down the problem. Is it running on 3 cylinders or sounds like its running on 3 cylinders? The number of blinks of the FI light is a system code, each number of blinks is a different diagnosis problem. If you have a service manual, the codes are listed in the Fuel System section of the manual.
Also check all your connections to the Power Commander. They are notorious for fudging things up when the ground connection gets loose or corroded. Especially the older 2's, not so much the 3's...
Well, I started into it tonight... I unhooked the PC and reconnectedeverything the way HONDA did it. I then reset the codes. Started it up and let it run for a minute. Then rechecked the codes. I got a code of 8 and another one, which I couldn't tell if it was supposed to 9 or 19. The Honda service man. says that the bike won't start with a code of 19 so i don't think that's it. Code 8 is for the Trottle Positioning Sensor. I went through the troubleshooting for the TP sensor and it comes out to be a faulty sensor. I quickly called the local dealer. He tells me to begin with that all he can find is the MAP and it's 350 roughly (for lack of good memory), I say no it's the TP. He gets the same book out that I'm looking at and says yes, looks a bit deeper in the comp. and then tells me that it's not avaliable as a single part. It's sold with the entire throttlee assembly for $1600. Must be Honda's way of making service money!!! He did tell me that he happens to have an ECU in stock for some unknown reason though that he'll give me 1/2 off on if I need it, ends up way cheaper than the TP sensor. So what is my next step... I'm not paying $1600 or even $600 for a TP sensor... Much less can I afford it. At this point looks like the bike will be parked until the '08 season, Seriously!!! Any suggestions or any other dumb, simple reasons for the fault codes. There isn't any short in the wires and no breaks either.... Damn! Anynoe have a TP sensor laying around, or even a throttle assembly, for less than 1/4 of the bikes purchase price. It only has 14500 miles on it, what the hell. Someone rescue me... PLEASE!!!!
Wow that blows. I looked on the parts catalog and sure enough, its apart of the throttle body assembly. Not really took the time to pay attention how it was attached but thats amazing they don't offer some type of replacement option besides the entire thing. Would assume the 6th gen is the same setup then. You would be cheaper buying an entire motor off ebay that has thottle body still on it, stripping it, then selling the rest of the motor honestly. Maybe someone else on here has found a better solution though, I'm sure your not the first ever to go out. Wish you best of luck.
hawglet, Mar 20 2007, 09:14 PMWell, I started into it tonight... I unhooked the PC and reconnectedeverything the way HONDA did it. I then reset the codes. Started it up and let it run for a minute. Then rechecked the codes. I got a code of 8 and another one, which I couldn't tell if it was supposed to 9 or 19. The Honda service man. says that the bike won't start with a code of 19 so i don't think that's it. Code 8 is for the Trottle Positioning Sensor. I went through the troubleshooting for the TP sensor and it comes out to be a faulty sensor. I quickly called the local dealer. He tells me to begin with that all he can find is the MAP and it's 350 roughly (for lack of good memory), I say no it's the TP. He gets the same book out that I'm looking at and says yes, looks a bit deeper in the comp. and then tells me that it's not avaliable as a single part. It's sold with the entire throttlee assembly for $1600. Must be Honda's way of making service money!!! He did tell me that he happens to have an ECU in stock for some unknown reason though that he'll give me 1/2 off on if I need it, ends up way cheaper than the TP sensor. So what is my next step... I'm not paying $1600 or even $600 for a TP sensor... Much less can I afford it. At this point looks like the bike will be parked until the '08 season, Seriously!!! Any suggestions or any other dumb, simple reasons for the fault codes. There isn't any short in the wires and no breaks either.... Damn! Anynoe have a TP sensor laying around, or even a throttle assembly, for less than 1/4 of the bikes purchase price. It only has 14500 miles on it, what the hell. Someone rescue me... PLEASE!!!!
Don't panic. My first thoight is a bad TP sensor is not going to affect one cylindar only. In your first post you seemed sure it was just one cylindar. Still sure? Make sure you are checking the codes correctly and are getting 8 & 9. What does a 9 code mean?
For what it is worth I battled with a FI problem on my 99 for 5 months before I found the real problem. I was having 5 differnet codes, 2 injectors, the MAP and others I forget -turns out none of the injectors or sensors were bad. I also was getting a pulsing FI light with no codes set at all. Eventually the light came on and stayed on. My symptoms were severe surging or just shutting off with no warning. I follwed the trouble shooting but could nver find a fault component other than the voltage leak test. I finally cured everything by replacing my wiring harness. I know of at least one other owner who had a similar w. harness experience.
What do you think about the 5th gen. years crossing over to one another. Meaning would everything fe the same on my 98 as an 01 or 00 or 99? Could I use the throttle assembly from another year other than 98?
hawglet, Mar 22 2007, 08:52 PMWhat do you think about the 5th gen. years crossing over to one another. Meaning would everything fe the same on my 98 as an 01 or 00 or 99? Could I use the throttle assembly from another year other than 98?
I am pretty sure the basic throttle body is the same for 98-01, with just minor changes. My 99 has a clipon mounted choke lever that actuates an enrichener integrated with the tb. either befor or after 99 this is replaced by a "wax" unit. In 2000 they added a catcon and switched from open to closed loop (or maybe vice versa) PGMFI circuit with 02 sensors BUT I don't know that these change effects the TB in any way. Others may know of other changes. But all you need is the TP sensor, right? Chances would seem good you could harvest one from any 5th gen and transplant to your TB.
Negative, Ghost Rider the pattern is full! 1) Make freinds with someone who access to parts 2) Sounds like a coil is dropping spark 3) Check coil fire signal with a meter 4) 98-99 ecu the same, 00-01 ecu different...
Mine threw a few codes right after I had a custom map made, eventually went away...
So far I've given up on the bike for a while so that I don't get too pissed at it and take our the BFH and go to town!!!! I'm scared that it really is the TP sensor but, if it were a coil dropping spark, would quickly opening the throttle from closed to open kill the bike. It doesn't even dawg out as though the choke is stuck or it's cold, it just dies as soon as you open the throttle quickly. I don't get it but is there anything I could attibute this to except the TP sensor? I bought a Honda because they seldom need fixed so long as a regular maintenence schedule was maintained. And the VFR part because it had all the qualities I was looking for, but now it's almost looking as though I bought my 2nd choice (Triumph Sprint) as expensive as it's looking to repair.
I bought a '99 throttlebody on ebay pretty cheap (condition unknown) i beleive the TP to which you refer is on the same shaft but opposite end where the cables are attached. if this is true THAT sensor is bolted on. marked JT3R 71120. the throttlebody is marked on the end GQ30AALL02. like i said the condition is unknown and it could use a little cleanup, but if you want to try it out. you pay the shipping both ways. IF it fixes your problem AND you want to buy it let me know.
Flyer let me check the numbers against mine and I'll let you know, DEFINATELY by the end of the weekend if not sooner, I'm very interested. Thanks for the offer. I'll get back to ya.
Did you check the air filter/air box? Could have a varmint in there clogging it up. A bud of mine had his FI light come on on is 1100XX. Filter was filthy.
gg2wheel4me, Mar 28 2007, 10:04 PMDid you check the air filter/air box? Could have a varmint in there clogging it up. A bud of mine had his FI light come on on is 1100XX. Filter was filthy.
gg
Yep, I just put the airbox back on after the desnorkle and unflapped procedure. As I type it's laying on the ground next to the bike as well as varoius other parts.
I'm not sure if it helps you at this point, but... I have a 1998 ECU in a box and I'll give you the same offer 'Flyer gave you.
Send me a note if you want it.
BTW CCRAAAAPPP!!! My bike has been doing, more or less, this same stuff for about a year and I've been avoiding doing the entire harness. Kanadian Ken, I think, gave me some guidance then telling me that he ultimately had to replace his harness too.
photomonkey, Apr 2 2007, 09:14 PMI'm not sure if it helps you at this point, but... I have a 1998 ECU in a box and I'll give you the same offer 'Flyer gave you.
Send me a note if you want it.
BTW CCRAAAAPPP!!! My bike has been doing, more or less, this same stuff for about a year and I've been avoiding doing the entire harness. Kanadian Ken, I think, gave me some guidance then telling me that he ultimately had to replace his harness too.
Crapper... Well, if anyone has an '01 harness laying around good or bad, I'm interested.
Good luck! smile.gif
Just had the harness redone...it's not so bad...when you pay someone else to do it... happy.gif
Well, I now have a set of Throttle bodies setting on the bench (Thank you Flyer). I cleaned them all up as best I could with a tooth brush and a couple of different rubber safe solvents. I'm wondering looking down between those frame rails now though as to weather or not I have to drop the motor just to replace a set of throttle bodies or can it be done easier/easy enough with hte motor not being moved!!! Hopefully someone has the answer I'm looking for and they are correct too! Thanks to all.
BTW PhotoMonkey, I'll let get back to you on the ECU if the offer still stands. I'll shoot you a PM either way as soon as I try out the new-ish TB system. Thanks.
hawglet, Apr 27 2007, 11:14 PMWell, I now have a set of Throttle bodies setting on the bench (Thank you Flyer). I cleaned them all up as best I could with a tooth brush and a couple of different rubber safe solvents. I'm wondering looking down between those frame rails now though as to weather or not I have to drop the motor just to replace a set of throttle bodies or can it be done easier/easy enough with hte motor not being moved!!! Hopefully someone has the answer I'm looking for and they are correct too! Thanks to all.
BTW PhotoMonkey, I'll let get back to you on the ECU if the offer still stands. I'll shoot you a PM either way as soon as I try out the new-ish TB system. Thanks.
.
No need to drop motor. 1 hour job, the throttle body just lifts right off of the motor after unplugging a couple of the hoses and harnesses, then unscrewing the pipe clamp things holding the rubber boots on. Just pull the tank & air filter off and pull it out from the top. Its pretty easy, just make sure you hook all the hoes up the way they are now, and route the the exact way they are suppose to be routed. Theres routing guides in the service manual. fing02.gif
i assume you have the factory service manual. you need to buy or borrow a 16" #2 philips screwdriver. you might get a lot of help from the "how to guides" by HS in the 5th gen section for changing the thermostat. (covers removal and replacement of TB's. good luck!
tinymindsNo need to drop motor. 1 hour job, the throttle body just lifts right off of the motor after unplugging a couple of the hoses and harnesses, then unscrewing the pipe clamp things holding the rubber boots on. Just pull the tank & air filter off and pull it out from the top. Its pretty easy, just make sure you hook all the hoes up the way they are now, and route the the exact way they are suppose to be routed. Theres routing guides in the service manual. fing02.gif
That's exactly what I was thinking and hoping but wasn't real sure.
VFR FLYERi assume you have the factory service manual. you need to buy or borrow a 16" #2 philips screwdriver. you might get a lot of help from the "how to guides" by HS in the 5th gen section for changing the thermostat. (covers removal and replacement of TB's. good luck!
I'll check that out this week before getting my hands too deep into it. I still need to drain a bit of gas out of the tank yet so....
I've had the FI light come on with a code 8 several times on my 99 in the last few years. I've pulled the plug-in off of the throttle body and cleaned and lubed it. I've sprayed the red switch on the bar with cleaner(starting fluid) and worked it back and forth. One time a new battery made it go away. A couple of times I cleaned the ground connection up and that worked for awhile. I have not replaced my throttle body yet and the bike is at 50,000 miles. I don't know for sure but any kind of low voltage seems to cause these probs. Bad grounding seems to cause a lot of headaches as has already been documented on the forums. I wonder if a lot of guys are replacing good throttle bodys and still have problems.
Ok I'm going to cross post this reply as it seems to apply in several places... I apologize in advance if this causes MODS headaches; it is not my intent to make things more difficult. This seems to address MAJOR ground issues for both generations, perhaps we could compile this info since it applies to 5th and 6th gens?
Kanadian Ken should really be getting the prize for finding this bug since he found it first on a VTech... even if it was only a month ago. wink.gif Where were you when I needed you, Ken? biggrin.gif
I wish I'd read more of the 6th stuff before setting about finding my issues. dry.gif If not for Rob, VFR800Canuck, posting on another link I don't think I ever would have found this stuff. I mean, I know that like 60% of us are engineers, but that not withstanding, when was the last time a 6th gen said something worth listening to? tongue.gif
Useful stuff starts here...
The 5th generation bike has an almost identical connection which Ken called a, ""Master" grouping of ground wires". I don't feel so bad now that I didn't know what to call it either... smile.gif
In fact, people looking for the orange 5th gen connector should look at Ken's post and check out the VERY similar yellow connector. I linked to a few of his photos below, so credit Ken with these pics too.
The only difference that I have been able to identify is that the 6th gen block brings all of the wires together where as the 5th gen block groups them into two sub groups. I would take photos, but wifey cleaned up my mess and all of the crispy stuff is gone. Maybe the same solution Ken used would apply here too; I wasn't sure so I grouped them as they were in the connector and soldered everything into groups.
As in Ken's example, I found the orange connector pretty much parallel to the battery on the left side completely buried in electrical tape. All of my fairings are off, so I'm not sure what you'll have to pull off to get there, but I think just the tail-section should cut it.
There are lots of funky issues that crop up arising from these ground issues: FI light, clock, turn signal, ignition problems, blah, blah, blah... In my case, and it sounds like Ken's too, it was pretty evident upon inspection that this was a problem area.
Hope this helps!
For reference, I posted this same post here as well.
As a precursor, Flyer, I'll be sending you a PM in the next day or two.
Well, the 99 TB assembly didn't do anything, still says a TP sensor problem. I went through all of the test in the service manual AGAIN and still coming back as the TP sensor needs replaced... What the hell!!! And that is with the set off the 99 that I got from Flyer. What is the likelyhood that the TP sensor is out on it too? I suppose it's not really impossible but still.
The only ground connection I could find like the ones described above was the one below the seat on the left next to the battery. It looked fine as far as I could tell. No corresion, no nothing, just four bare terminals.
Going to talk to the Honda dealership, owner, and see if he will order me a new set of TBs and let me hook them up electrically only to see if the code will stay away. If so I guess I'll be spending a bunch of money, if not a few gallons of gas in the tank and a box of matches should fix the light blinking, codes and my headaches!!!
Welcoming any and all suggestions that will keep my bike from being on fire!!!!
i am bummed also! was hoping for better news...... pissed.gif .....not likely either of th TB sensors are bad. also not likely the ECU has a problem, but if someone in your immediate area rode a 98 or 99 i would be asking to borrow it for a couple of minutes.............whats left? wiring. last i checked ron ayers had all three wiring sections, unless you have the time and patience to start that! i have no other ideas. you may return either TB assemblys (complete). no rush..............
I have had my 98 for 6 years now and every time I got an FI error I checked the connector where the error is pointing to, and follow it down to other connectors till I find a bent wire or corroded lead. Most the time it has been a dissconnected circuit. This last time it happend to me it was because I got too diligent with the power washer and got the wire harness wet. Usually its the connector, I take it apart and clean the wires, slather on some dielectric grease. I think you should check the easy stuff first before you go looking into replaceing your TP sensor. There are also test to see if the TP sensor is in spec (in the manual) a certain ohm reading at top and bottom postion I beleive is how its conducted.
hawglet, May 8 2007, 08:58 PMAs a precursor, Flyer, I'll be sending you a PM in the next day or two.
Well, the 99 TB assembly didn't do anything, still says a TP sensor problem. I went through all of the test in the service manual AGAIN and still coming back as the TP sensor needs replaced... What the hell!!! And that is with the set off the 99 that I got from Flyer. What is the likelyhood that the TP sensor is out on it too? I suppose it's not really impossible but still.
The only ground connection I could find like the ones described above was the one below the seat on the left next to the battery. It looked fine as far as I could tell. No corresion, no nothing, just four bare terminals.
Going to talk to the Honda dealership, owner, and see if he will order me a new set of TBs and let me hook them up electrically only to see if the code will stay away. If so I guess I'll be spending a bunch of money, if not a few gallons of gas in the tank and a box of matches should fix the light blinking, codes and my headaches!!!
Welcoming any and all suggestions that will keep my bike from being on fire!!!!
I don't remember if I posted this before but I was having various FI light, ECM code and performance problems for about 5 months last year. I was never able to trace the exact source of the problems but I eventually solved them completely and so far permanently by replacing my main wiring harness. If you do decide to replace your harness be sure to avoid putting any starin on the harness as you install it. The harness path is very torturous and lacking in clearance. I have a suspicion that many 5th gen harnesses were damaged on assembly due to this causing, or at least contributing to, many of the electrical system problems.
Flyer- I willl get it back to you however, if you don't mind I'ld like to keep ahold of them for a little while so that I have something to play with. I'm not talking a long time but maybe a month or so if that's okay, if not I understand as well. PM me.
Slammer- I think I've checked all the harness connections as far as the TP sensor cares. I've unplugged and pluged the TP and sub-harness several times now. Connections wise they all have straight, clean pins and the female ends seem to be tight. I did check the TP according to the manual. It's supposed to draw a certain resistance at open and another value at closed. Mine carries no resistance, EVER!!! I'm pretty convinced just by that. The one Flyer sent me holds NO ohm value either. Someone probably had the same prob. once and put their old set on ebay trying to recoup a hundred of the 1600!!!
Roland- see above, I'm pretty sure that the TP is bad due to not having any resistance for the computer to compute!! Cost wise I wish it was the harness. PITA wise, I'ld hate to have to stretch the harness through the bike.
Thanks to all of the suggestion and if their is anyone with a TB set lying around, I'll take it provided the TP sensor is good. 98 and 99 both will work. If anyone is willing to stop by that's in the region and let me swap theirs onto mine to check it I'ld be willing to make it worth your 3-4 hours in my garage, drinking my beer,in Nebraska, while I work. Thanks to all.
RolandHTG, Mar 21 2007, 03:49 PMFor what it is worth I battled with a FI problem on my 99 for 5 months before I found the real problem. <SNIP> I finally cured everything by replacing my wiring harness. I know of at least one other owner who had a similar w. harness experience.
Roland, I'm having an intermittent problem with engine shutoff. I haven't finished running down everything but I was wondering what all is invovled in doing the routing & hooking up of the wiring harness replacement. Is there a clear cut proceedure for doing this or was it just trial and error? Also, to get everything hooked up correctly, did you tag & mark the connections somehow on the old one then compare the old with the new as you went along?
RolandHTG, Mar 21 2007, 03:49 PMFor what it is worth I battled with a FI problem on my 99 for 5 months before I found the real problem. <SNIP> I finally cured everything by replacing my wiring harness. I know of at least one other owner who had a similar w. harness experience.
Roland, I'm having an intermittent problem with engine shutoff. I haven't finished running down everything but I was wondering what all is invovled in doing the routing & hooking up of the wiring harness replacement. Is there a clear cut proceedure for doing this or was it just trial and error? Also, to get everything hooked up correctly, did you tag & mark the connections somehow on the old one then compare the old with the new as you went along?
I was unable to find any installation instructions, I assume this is a manufacturing task and not considered by our friends at Honda a normal R&R that needs to be performed dry.gif
I left the old one in place, started at the front end and removed one old connector at a time replacing it with the appropriate connector new connector, thus having the old and new side by side for easy reference.
In hindsight this turned out to be a bad idea due to the clearance issues. It would be better to take a set of "before" photos for reference instead and have more room. Also from my experience I think it would be better to start in the middle and work toward the ends. The difficult part, if I remember correctly is the area around the upper shock mount and the fuse box where the harness is thick, has a branch or two and makes a tight bend in a narrow space. I think I may have had to unbolt the top shock mount to get clearance to work it through. You do not want to risk damage to the new harness by forcing it around and through any tight space or bend. I also recall having to loosen either the clutch or rear brake hydraulic line banjo bolt to get clearance for some wires.
I think all of the connectors are either color matched or can physically fit only one place so there is little or no chance of connecting something wrong but it might be very helpful to have pictures to show how wires are routed. The manual has a whole section devoted to routing of each component color pictures are much easier for me to follow than black & white line drawings.
So I suggest either take several photos of each section of the harness and/or if no digital camera make drawaing and notes for each connector and wire branch first.
When you complete this job successfully you will feel like an ace neurosurgeon who just completted a spinal cord transplant! Good Luck!
I left the old one in place, started at the front end and removed one old connector at a time replacing it with the appropriate connector new connector, thus having the old and new side by side for easy reference. In hindsight this turned out to be a bad idea due to the clearance issues. It would be better to take a set of "before" photos for reference instead and have more room. Also from my experience I think it would be better to start in the middle and work toward the ends.
Thanks for the benefit of your experience. Hopefully I won't have to go through this. All I've done so far is to check for loose connections. We'll give her a spin hopefully this weekend to see if it did any good.
hawglet, how about posting the exact part number and even better, a picture of the part you need. I'm in Singapore and these stuff are more readily available here. And cheaper too.
Just ordered another one yesterday afternoon from Boulder Bike Works. They told me that they got the engine out of the bike and whoever they bought it from said that the engine was in good running order so we'll see. It'ld better work for $250 plus s&h!!! Or I'll be s&h'ing myself!!!
Snowparang- If the forementioned one doesn't work I'll get in touch with you but I'm betting that shipping it over here to the states would make it very expensive. We'll see, hopefully this will cure it though. Thanks.
Flyer, I'm planning on taking the set I got from you off the bike, again, this weekend probably so I'll do what I can to get them to UPS in the next week or so. I'll PM you whenever I ship them so that you can keep an eye out. Thanks for all your efforts none the less.
+1.gif To slammers, clean it up and dielectric grease all of your connections. The symptoms are identical to those that I had issue with even though the connectors all look good, I'd go over each tab with steel wool, lube it with dielctric grease and try again. What will it hurt? The connections in that block are friction at best!
Certainly if you're taking the time to do the transplant it would be well worth the time to do the due diligence now before your bugs get an encore performance.
photomonkey, May 17 2007, 09:01 PMI know exactly how you guys feel. It SUCKS!
+1.gif To slammers, clean it up and dielectric grease all of your connections. The symptoms are identical to those that I had issue with even though the connectors all look good, I'd go over each tab with steel wool, lube it with dielctric grease and try again. What will it hurt? The connections in that block are friction at best!
Certainly if you're taking the time to do the transplant it would be well worth the time to do the due diligence now before your bugs get an encore performance.
D
First time I did the swap, I was in a huge hurry, however, taking it apart this time I suppose I will clean and grease my, what look to be clean, connections. We'll see what happens this time, something had better happen one way or the other.
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