Why Not Aluminum?

I was just looking to get a set of Leo Vince pipes and my choice is between getting the aluminum cans and being able to afford a PCIII or getting the titanium and not the PCIII, but still having a little $$ left over.  Are there any long term issues with the Aluminum?  I know Aluminum is a little heavier than Ti but not enough for me to be worried about it.

The only thing the aluminum lacks is bling.   :beer:

Aluminum is less dense than Ti.  The weight of the cans will depend on the wall thickness, but the Al ones could well be lighter.  

If you're interested in improving performance or rideability, Al cans + PCIII is obviously better than Ti cans alone, although you may need to pay more to get a good custom map.  Lean surging might get worse if you just do the pipe.

[image: View Post]vfrqqq, on Nov 30 2007, 09:36 AM, said:

I was just looking to get a set of Leo Vince pipes and my choice is between getting the aluminum cans and being able to afford a PCIII or getting the titanium and not the PCIII, but still having a little $ left over.  Are there any long term issues with the Aluminum?  I know Aluminum is a little heavier than Ti but not enough for me to be worried about it.
Titanium Cans will be marginally lighter than aluminum cans but more prone to denting... only a full
Titanium system will save you enough pounds to worry about...

[image: Posted Image]

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on Nov 30 2007, 02:10 PM, said:

[image: View Post]vfrqqq, on Nov 30 2007, 09:36 AM, said:

I was just looking to get a set of Leo Vince pipes and my choice is between getting the aluminum cans and being able to afford a PCIII or getting the titanium and not the PCIII, but still having a little $ left over.  Are there any long term issues with the Aluminum?  I know Aluminum is a little heavier than Ti but not enough for me to be worried about it.
Titanium Cans will be marginally lighter than aluminum cans but more prone to denting... only a full
Titanium system will save you enough pounds to worry about...

[image: Posted Image]

I built a set of titanium cans for Bailey from .020" Ti-CP-2, and they weigh next to nothing...  :thumbsup:

[image: View Post]fallzboater, on Nov 30 2007, 01:15 PM, said:

Aluminum is less dense than Ti.  The weight of the cans will depend on the wall thickness, but the Al ones could well be lighter.
While this statement is technically correct, Titanium is much stronger than Aluminum and therefore the pipes can be made from thinner material.  The end result is pipes that are lighter than their Aluminum counterparts.

[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on Dec 1 2007, 01:50 PM, said:

[image: View Post]fallzboater, on Nov 30 2007, 01:15 PM, said:

Aluminum is less dense than Ti.  The weight of the cans will depend on the wall thickness, but the Al ones could well be lighter.
While this statement is technically correct, Titanium is much stronger than Aluminum and therefore the pipes can be made from thinner material.  The end result is pipes that are lighter than their Aluminum counterparts.
Really I was just trying to make the point that Titanium is not lighter than aluminum, which seems to be a common misunderstanding.  Whether you can make a Ti part lighter than an equivalent Al part depends on the geometry and other factors.  Aluminum bicycle frames, for instance, are made lighter than Ti, since the lighter material allows larger diameter tubing for increased bending and torsional stiffness with acceptable dent and buckling resistance.

Muffler cans are probably all made out of rolled sheet, and the geometry is pretty well defined by the desired volume and packaging constraints.  Al is about 40% lighter than Ti, so if you can get away with making the Ti sheet more than 40% thinner, you'll save weight (but probably not much).  Carbon tubing is really the way to go in this case.

[image: View Post]fallzboater, on Dec 1 2007, 06:03 PM, said:

[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on Dec 1 2007, 01:50 PM, said:

[image: View Post]fallzboater, on Nov 30 2007, 01:15 PM, said:

Aluminum is less dense than Ti.  The weight of the cans will depend on the wall thickness, but the Al ones could well be lighter.
While this statement is technically correct, Titanium is much stronger than Aluminum and therefore the pipes can be made from thinner material.  The end result is pipes that are lighter than their Aluminum counterparts.
Really I was just trying to make the point that Titanium is not lighter than aluminum, which seems to be a common misunderstanding.  Whether you can make a Ti part lighter than an equivalent Al part depends on the geometry and other factors.  Aluminum bicycle frames, for instance, are made lighter than Ti, since the lighter material allows larger diameter tubing for increased bending and torsional stiffness with acceptable dent and buckling resistance.

Muffler cans are probably all made out of rolled sheet, and the geometry is pretty well defined by the desired volume and packaging constraints.  Al is about 40% lighter than Ti, so if you can get away with making the Ti sheet more than 40% thinner, you'll save weight (but probably not much).  Carbon tubing is really the way to go in this case.

What kills me is the companies that make titanium cans, and then use big, thick, chunky, endcaps. Why bother in that case? Because some dummy will still pay an extra $250 just so they can say they have a "Ti" exhaust...   :offtopic:

To get back on topic, it's really just a matter of personal taste. Especially with the VFR, where those few ounces of weight make about as much difference as a nun wearing a thong instead of regular undies(my apologies to any nuns who may be offended by this). No one will ever notice!

On the other hand, if the dull silver look fits into a look you're trying to achieve, go for it. Personally I like polished aluminum better. The aluminum cans will last a very long time with normal use, they just need some shining up every now and then.

I don't like aluminum cans due to the scuffing, denting and polishing that is required.

I've owned them before and the long term beauty isn't great.

I'd far rather have Stainless steel or Ti or CF sleeves than Al.


I won't buy Al cans ever again, just for aesthetic reasons.

"Especially with the VFR, where those few ounces of weight make about as much difference as a nun wearing a thong instead of regular undies(my apologies to any nuns who may be offended by this). No one will ever notice!"

Sebspeed...that is some of the funniest shit I've ever read...please don't ever let that quote die off....

[image: View Post]David E., on Dec 1 2007, 10:40 PM, said:

"Especially with the VFR, where those few ounces of weight make about as much difference as a nun wearing a thong instead of regular undies(my apologies to any nuns who may be offended by this). No one will ever notice!"

Sebspeed...that is some of the funniest shit I've ever read...please don't ever let that quote die off....
Quote it into your signature line!!  :lol:

Aluminum will work just fine.  All metal will dent, get dirty and need to be cleaned/polished.  If you can get the pipe+PC III for the same price as the Ti unit, get the extra toys.

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on Nov 30 2007, 07:39 PM, said:

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on Nov 30 2007, 02:10 PM, said:

[image: View Post]vfrqqq, on Nov 30 2007, 09:36 AM, said:

I was just looking to get a set of Leo Vince pipes and my choice is between getting the aluminum cans and being able to afford a PCIII or getting the titanium and not the PCIII, but still having a little $ left over.  Are there any long term issues with the Aluminum?  I know Aluminum is a little heavier than Ti but not enough for me to be worried about it.
Titanium Cans will be marginally lighter than aluminum cans but more prone to denting... only a full
Titanium system will save you enough pounds to worry about...

[image: Posted Image]

I built a set of titanium cans for Bailey from .020" Ti-CP-2, and they weigh next to nothing...  :thumbsup:


Seb,

On that TI can, what would be a ballpark price to build me 2 cans 3" OD X 18" long? Maybe even flame colored?

Larry
VFRrider

[image: View Post]vfrrider, on Jan 31 2008, 12:31 PM, said:

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on Nov 30 2007, 07:39 PM, said:

I built a set of titanium cans for Bailey from .020" Ti-CP-2, and they weigh next to nothing...  :thumbsup:

Seb,

On that TI can, what would be a ballpark price to build me 2 cans 3" OD X 18" long? Maybe even flame colored?

Larry
VFRrider

Unfortunately for you(and me), that was a one-off I made at work, and I recently took a desk job here. I can still do "government work", but it's harder for me to pull it off now.

Pricewise, not much. I had Kevin send me his endcaps so I could clamp the sheet to them with hose clamps, then welded it(also had to hot roll them for initial shape).

If I ever win the lotto, I have a laundry list of equipment to buy and implement in a new building to work out of! Put my skills to some more relevant use... :thumbsup:

I would think the Ti cans would be less susceptible to dents than the AL ones.  Weight might be about the same given wall thicknesses in this application, but Ti should last longer due to its "give", whereas AL is more likely to crack or break after the same number of cycles.  (Think Ti vs. AL bicycle frames.)

Of course, I'm not metallurgist, so what the heck do I know?

I do like the looks of the Ti cans better tho, b/c they match the other "dull silver" looks of the passenger pegs and brackets and a few other parts.

The real test is to get three bikes that have exhaust sytems over ten years old together with careful owners that did all the required maintenance on their bikes, one with SS one with TI and the last with Aluminium. See what looks the best after those ten years......betcha it's the SS system, specially if it's a Staintune. My high right Staintune looks brand new after more than ten years on the bike. It's also been hit by various things (my boots, broom handles, tools and parts falling on it when I worked on the bike...) along the way but it has zero dents and scratches. and it weighs about half the OEM pipe. :thumbsup:

Beck
95 VFR

Exactly, get the aluminum the titanium is not worth it. I have the titanium and they don't look much different than the aluminum. The only reason I have them is that they came on the '04 when I purchased it and I transferred them to the '07 when I got it.

[image: View Post]vfrqqq, on Nov 30 2007, 10:36 AM, said:

I was just looking to get a set of Leo Vince pipes and my choice is between getting the aluminum cans and being able to afford a PCIII or getting the titanium and not the PCIII, but still having a little $$ left over.  Are there any long term issues with the Aluminum?  I know Aluminum is a little heavier than Ti but not enough for me to be worried about it.

[image: View Post]TimC, on Jan 31 2008, 01:30 PM, said:

I would think the Ti cans would be less susceptible to dents than the AL ones.  Weight might be about the same given wall thicknesses in this application, but Ti should last longer due to its "give", whereas AL is more likely to crack or break after the same number of cycles.  (Think Ti vs. AL bicycle frames.)

Of course, I'm not metallurgist, so what the heck do I know?

I do like the looks of the Ti cans better tho, b/c they match the other "dull silver" looks of the passenger pegs and brackets and a few other parts.
Depends on the grade, and the thickness. You can bead blast aluminum, and it will look like Ti. Aluminum has to be aged(heat treated) to the proper grade for the intended application.

ALUM CANS = lots of polish to keep them looking good. When you lube your chain
be ready to break out the polish...


FLITZ is my best friend, its a pain in the azzcrack :blink:


BUT my mistake some oil leaked out of the res for my shock and got on the can
I cleaned it up and the can looked like new again. I'mma have to find out just
what kinda erl that was cuz it sure would save some time! :warranty:

[image: View Post]TimC, on Jan 31 2008, 10:30 AM, said:

I would think the Ti cans would be less susceptible to dents than the AL ones.
I found out that the Ti cans dent far more easily than ally cans... I prefer carbon fiber over them all...

[image: Posted Image]

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on Jan 31 2008, 04:54 PM, said:

I prefer carbon fiber over them all... I love the looks of CF cans, too, but it kinda depends on the color of the bike.

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on Nov 30 2007, 01:39 PM, said:

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on Nov 30 2007, 02:10 PM, said:

[image: View Post]vfrqqq, on Nov 30 2007, 09:36 AM, said:

I was just looking to get a set of Leo Vince pipes and my choice is between getting the aluminum cans and being able to afford a PCIII or getting the titanium and not the PCIII, but still having a little $ left over. Are there any long term issues with the Aluminum? I know Aluminum is a little heavier than Ti but not enough for me to be worried about it.
Titanium Cans will be marginally lighter than aluminum cans but more prone to denting... only a full
Titanium system will save you enough pounds to worry about...

[image: Posted Image]

I built a set of titanium cans for Bailey from .020" Ti-CP-2, and they weigh next to nothing... :thumbsup:

Yeh, well you could just take the stock ones off and they'd weigh nothing....so there :warranty:

I wouldn't want aluminum in an exhaust application.  I've worked with al all my career and with high heat and enough cycles, it will harden then get brittle, on most alloys.  It has it's place but not on an exhaust, IMHO.

[image: View Post]Bent, on Jan 31 2008, 07:45 PM, said:

I wouldn't want aluminum in an exhaust application.  I've worked with al all my career and with high heat and enough cycles, it will harden then get brittle, on most alloys.  It has it's place but not on an exhaust, IMHO.
I don't think carbon fiber will hold out any longer. SS is the best bet for longevity. Not the lightest, however, see my post above(in reference to the nun) about my opinion on that.

I'm happy with my Staintunes, FWIW.

[image: View Post]Bent, on Jan 31 2008, 07:45 PM, said:

I wouldn't want aluminum in an exhaust application.  I've worked with al all my career and with high heat and enough cycles, it will harden then get brittle, on most alloys.  It has it's place but not on an exhaust, IMHO.
its light and is a nonstressed part..so you could have a diamond exhaust and it would just add weight.. lots of bling though.

overall.. it all comes down to choice... weight ,looks, and price are factors.... strength is non issue. if you want durablity for crashing.. get Aluminum... you can pop out a dent. weld a a crack cheap.. take a scotch bright a give it a burnished look.
as for my self.. i am going to try installing a couple of carbon fiber microns under the bike.

What about heat transfer (which one will be hotter to the touch)?  My main concerns would be for passengers and luggage.

I would suspect that the CF's would be coolest, followed by the titanium, aluminum, and SS in that order?  Would this be correct.

Anyone have direct experience with this they could share?

I have a Wolf CF underseat system which replaced a Staintune.You can pretty much rest your palm on a CF can after a spirited ride. You can't do that with stainless. Not sure about Ti or aluminium.

Regardless of material there's generally little to worry about re. heat for pillions or luggage, unless something is really wrong.

Well, are we opinionated here or what.  Nun thongs? Well, my "nun" has lost 30lbs, which includes the thongs.  Weight saving is a process that takes into account every insignificant bits and once added up, makes a difference. Trust me, my VFR didn't lose 30lbs with only one item.

As for your choice between aluminum and Ti, it could be a matter of durability.  The problem I've had with aluminum can in the past (which may or may not apply to the Leo's) is the holes where the rivets attached get bigger with time making the can loose.  Perhaps Leo's quality will prevent that, but I don't know.

Well, if you drill the rivets out properly, that won't happen.   :rolleyes: