New 5th/6th/8th gen performance header now in production in USA

A pre-production prototype header assembly with specifications nearly identical to the Two Brothers Racing [TBR] 5th gen VFR 800 header is now being constructed in southern California.

This is a new thread duplicating a post on the VFRD '5th & 6th VFR 800 Header build' thread. The objective of this new thread is to give the project described below an opportunity to stand on its own four cylinders. There is a metric ton of valuable data and opinion on the old thread, so if you're new to VFR headers and curious about the gestation of this project, don't deny yourself the pleasure of reviewing it.

*Background:

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Thanks for the heads up!

Where in So Cal - is there a reason why the name of the shop is not listed/mentioned?  I'm assuming it's in Orange or San Diego county?

Re: Note a - Can an 8th gen order be included in the initial group order or does he require an additional 15 orders solely for 8th gens? 

Do the two O2 sensor locations from the 6th gen also work properly for the 8th gen?

Also just curious, will the exhaust system differ based upon what kind of fuel management, what kind of muffler, or whether or not dyno tuning will be performed?

1) Re: Note c - can we have Wade perform the expansion of our midpipe connector for an additional fee? (applies to local members only I'd imagine)

1a) Re: Note c-  Possible to pay extra to have the 49mm midpipe connection as modifying a Staintune may be out of the question for me.

2 hours ago, Samuelx

Thanks for the heads up!

Where in So Cal - is there a reason why the name of the shop is not listed/mentioned?  I'm assuming it's in Orange or San Diego county?

Re: Note a - Can an 8th gen order be included in the initial group order or does he require an additional 15 orders solely for 8th gens? 

Do the two O2 sensor locations from the 6th gen also work properly for the 8th gen?

Also just curious, will the exhaust system differ based upon what kind of fuel management, what kind of muffler, or whether or not dyno tuning will be performed?

Good questions, Samuel.

1 - we have chosen not to list the fabricator’s website or exact location because, in the past, several potential manufacturers and distributors of headers have been driven away when multiple enthusiastic VFR owners - with only the best of intentions - went around the member already in contact with the supplier, directly calling and emailing the supplier into a frustrated state of disinterest.

2 - on Note a, we have discussed with Wade  the differences between 5th/6th gen headers and those for 8th gen. Because the headers will be constructed on an assembly line in jigs/fixtures that facilitate a specific confguration, production runs of 15 units will happen for one configuration at a time. Part of producing the 8th gen header will probably be making the front primaries modular so that a rear primary/collector assembly can be designed to fit all three gens - 5th/6th gen or 8th gen front primaries can then be selected depending on which gen the customer has requested headers for. Getting Wade to buy in to the viability of this project was tough. The more we demonstrated a fully developed objective with no complicating variables, the more willing he became to participate. As a result,  distilling the first production run to a single configuration that matched the sample TBR we had on hand was mandatory.

3 - nope, each 5th/6th gen header will be exactly the same. Detailed specs are listed in the original post.

1 hour ago, thtanner

1) Re: Note c - can we have Wade perform the expansion of our midpipe connector for an additional fee? (applies to local members only I'd imagine)

1a) Re: Note c-  Possible to pay extra to have the 49mm midpipe connection as modifying a Staintune may be out of the question for me.

Hi Tanner

1 - on Note c, yes, purchasers of headers can send or bring their midpipe/slipon to Wade’s shop to have it expanded. Expansion is literally a 5 minute task with the right tool - a hydraulic pipe expander. I’ve watched Wade do it. It will be much more cost and time efficient to stop by a quality local exhaust shop that has a hydraulic expansion machine and hire them to expand a midpipe as described in OP.

1a - the tough answer is that no changes will be made to the specifications of units in the first production run. It will help if all of us, as a single community, think of our group as being in a position to respect the fabricator’s process and continue to earn his trust as we simultaneously motivate him to take on a second production run of VFR headers. There may be a possibility of opting for a 49mm exit pipe in later production runs, but probably not.

The pleasant answer is that like you, I have a Staintune slipon and will be having its clamp end expanded to fit the new headers. I will report back to you as soon as my pipe has been modified. For expanding mine, I plan to use a known auto muffler shop within 2 miles of my home that has done automobile catalytic converter work for me, friends, and family members.

I'm in for the 8th.  no questions asked.

Also let wade know I have the modded airbox,  rapid bike race with ignition timing/fuel control,  pipercross air filter,  short med. and long mufflers standing by for tuning once he gets the 8th header out.  I could take some leave maybe if you guys need a bike.  or if you had a VFR in trade for a week or two while fabbing.  ^_^ Cause I daily drive the '14

Wow Lance and Duc2V4 - you guys are AWESOME! 

Congratulations on succesding where so many others (including myself!) have failed. You’re a credit to us and I’m very grateful - I know you’ve been beavering away at this for a long, long time. 

When the 8th gen run begins I’ll put my name down for one (want a front-mount rad on my 5th gen). 

Once more: WELL DONE AND THANKS! 

Stray

Hi guys

Great going with this.  It has been a looooong road to get to this point.

I too am interested in an 8th Gen set due to my modded radiator setup with now no side rads at all.

Keep us informed as to when it is getting towards the 8th Gen set heading to production and I'll chip in my deposit.

I'd need to get is shipped to New Zealand, would that be possible?

Cheers

Phil

Voided 76, Stray, and HighSideNZ - we are getting a lot of responses from 8th gen owners, which is very cool! I'll add you three to the list I'm about to start; the B-list [no offense intended if you end up on the B-list] which will consist of people who are interested in purchasing a header, but would prefer to wait before placing a deposit.

Check out my response to Samuelx 3 or 4 posts up from this one - it includes information about developing this header for the 8th gen.

HighSideNZ - I'm sure shipping to NZ can be arranged. Maybe you could PM with some coaching on the best way to accomplish this?

In for 5th gen full system. What's the muffler gonna be? I like the sound of my Delkevic 8" slip-on, so I'd like something similar with minimal baffling.

1 hour ago, Airisom

In for 5th gen full system. What's the muffler gonna be? I like the sound of my Delkevic 8" slip-on, so I'd like something similar with minimal baffling.

Hi Airisom - thanks for your interest! As Note h in the OP vaguely states, we have not pinned down the 5th gen full system specs or pricing beyond "It can be high or low mount, and the muffler canister can be metal or carbon". Sorry. We're doing our best not to tip the boat with any variables until we have the prototype in our hands, but we'll get on the 8th gen header, 5th gen full system, and, if at all possible, a 6th gen full system once the prototype testing is done and the first production run is under way. [ps on the QT, I'm leaning toward a full system for my 5th gen and once we get to that point, will attempt to nudge the design toward spring tension fittings between the header and the midpipe]

PM for info on making a deposit or to be added to the B list, which is the' interested but not quite ready to make a deposit' group. Include answers to the informal survey so we can keep our thumbs on the pulse of the project.

Like highside NZ, since ive got a front mount rad, and low mounted oil cooler, the 8th gen splayed pipes would come in handy for me  and my 5th gen too.

Nice work, we are almost up and running.

SFD I have the money up front if need be.  again.  I got money,  AND time,  currently.

2 hours ago, Voided76

SFD I have the money up front if need be.  again.  I got money,  AND time,  currently.

Cool - thanks Voided76. PM sent.

sfdownhill, ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 12:10 AM

Good questions, Samuel.

1 - we have chosen not to list the fabricator’s website or exact location because, in the past, several potential manufacturers and distributors of headers have been driven away when multiple enthusiastic VFR owners - with only the best of intentions - went around the member already in contact with the supplier, directly calling and emailing the supplier into a frustrated state of disinterest.

2 - on Note a, we have discussed with Wade  the differences between 5th/6th gen headers and those for 8th gen. Because the headers will be constructed on an assembly line in jigs/fixtures that facilitate a specific confguration, production runs of 15 units will happen for one configuration at a time. Part of producing the 8th gen header will probably be making the front primaries modular so that a rear primary/collector assembly can be designed to fit all three gens - 5th/6th gen or 8th gen front primaries can then be selected depending on which gen the customer has requested headers for. Getting Wade to buy in to the viability of this project was tough. The more we demonstrated a fully developed objective with no complicating variables, the more willing he became to participate. As a result,  distilling the first production run to a single configuration that matched the sample TBR we had on hand was mandatory.

3 - nope, each 5th/6th gen header will be exactly the same. Detailed specs are listed in the original post.

Thanks for the reply/info!  Will PM you over at VFRW...

Duc2V4 and I are looking for a set of used 6th gen performance slip-on midpipe/mufflers to purchase, borrow, or have donated for use dyno test/tuning the prototype new VFR800 performance header. Our test 6th gen has gutted OEM mid pipe/mufflers, and those won't flow enough exhaust gas to take best advantage of the new header.

A cosmetically damaged 6th gen slip-on would be great if fully functional. Any brand or model that is open flowing is fine; Two Brother Racing, Delkevic, Micron, Leo Vince, Akrapovic, Scorpion, Staintune, etc

We would prefer to accept a generous donation or loan and will pick up in southern California or pay for shipping [pay shipping both ways if the slipon is a loan], but we are willing to purchase.

WE ARE NOT PICKY. Thanks for considering this.

Probably worth noting that the donated/loaned slip on will not be usable after being loaned, unless it is then used in conjunction with one of these headers or a custom gasket is made to fit the newly expanded end. On the up side, a good way to ensure good fit is having the fabricator fit them personally. lol 

I have a set of Remus carbon pipes hanging on the wall in my shop. I'm thinking about it, but, I couldn't really be any further away. I'm also unsure if I want the 5/6 gen configuration or the 8th, as I haven't sorted my cooling system plan 100% yet. 

Thanks for considering it Seb. I'll PM you in case it works out to purchase your Remus mufflers or use them for testing and fit a new set of headers to them for your 6th gen. Here's a thought - Wade suggested that one way to properly match the large outlet of the new performance header would be for him to fabricate midpipes.

Remus sounds great in two ways [1] just the sound of the VFR V4 running through them [2] as an outlet for our test 6th gen's burned gases.

I hope you noticed that we corrected our grave error of leaving you off our initial 'grateful thanks' list...you're first on the list now!

Like (many) others, I'm pretty happy to see something like this looking like eventuating. It's taken a long time to be potentially this close (not for lack of effort on behalf of a number of people!)

While I've put my hand up as interested in the headers themselves, "if" there is a full system eventually available with Carbon slip-on, I'd almost certainly be interested in the whole thing. (Will need to get a handle on shipping to Oz, though).

Given that the $AUD is falling against the $USD, I'd also be very keen to pay for the header/system in $USD if at all possible. (I guess the question there revolves around methods of payment available).

Hi EX-XX  - sorry to hear about the $AUD tipping downward. I'll PM you and let's set something up to preserve your valuation.

HighSideNZ informed that NZ Post has a 'drop point' [for lack of a better term] in Portland Oregon USA, where private US shippers can have parcels sent. Then the NZ Post relays the packages through customs and on to New Zealand at reasonable cost. Perhaps there is a similar Australian service available for us small independent shippers and receivers?

2 hours ago, sfdownhill

Hi EX-XX  - sorry to hear about the $AUD tipping downward. I'll PM you and let's set something up to preserve your valuation.

HighSideNZ informed that NZ Post has a 'drop point' [for lack of a better term] in Portland Oregon USA, where private US shippers can have parcels sent. Then the NZ Post relays the packages through customs and on to New Zealand at reasonable cost. Perhaps there is a similar Australian service available for us small independent shippers and receivers?

Aus Post refers to a service called "ShopMate" for this purpose. I haven't used it, as I'd either have the person ship it direct, or use another service (Shipito etc.) for the purpose.

Have any of the other Oz members used ShopMate for US-based purchases...?

32 minutes ago, EX-XX

Aus Post refers to a service called "ShopMate" for this purpose. I haven't used it, as I'd either have the person ship it direct, or use another service (Shipito etc.) for the purpose.

Have any of the other Oz members used ShopMate for US-based purchases...?

I haven't used it but I just read thru it and we would need the boxed dimensions and weight for shipping rate. From what I also understand is that if a single item is valued at over a AU$1000 additional import duties apply, so at our current exchange rate maybe we could separate into 2 parcels. 10% Gst is also applicable ontop of purchase 

EX-XX and boOZZIE, the dimensions of the shipping package for one set of headers will be 95cm x 60cm  x 45cm [or slightly less] and will weigh 7kg [or slightly less]. 7kg includes 1kg of protective packing material and the box.

Thanks for being willing to check out shipping to Australia!

1 hour ago, sfdownhill

EX-XX and boOZZIE, the dimensions of the shipping package for one set of headers will be 95cm x 60cm  x 45cm [or slightly less] and will weigh 7kg [or slightly less]. 7kg includes 1kg of protective packing material and the box.

Thanks for being willing to check out shipping to Australia!

I punched those dimensions into the Auspost shipping calculator and they are to big. Will not ship. So not sure, ill call them and see if they can do something else or point me in another direction.

Just to be clear

95cm is the length

60cm is the. ...?

45cm is the. ...?

Call it 95cm length, 60cm width, and 45cm depth.

If that's still too large, try 95cm length, 45cm width, and 40cm depth.

1 hour ago, sfdownhill

Call it 95cm length, 60cm width, and 45cm depth.

If that's still too large, try 95cm length, 45cm width, and 40cm depth.

The acceptable dimensions are 95x45x55 / 95x44x56 at a cost of approximately  $415

"Approximate" because I'm not sure how much shipping will be from the manufacturer to Auspost warehouse in the states.

So going this route thru Auspost is going to be approx au$1500 to the door

6 hours ago, boOZZIE

The acceptable dimensions are 95x45x55 / 95x44x56 at a cost of approximately  $415

"Approximate" because I'm not sure how much shipping will be from the manufacturer to Auspost warehouse in the states.

So going this route thru Auspost is going to be approx au$1500 to the door

Wouldn't you be better served by checking the cost to ship via USPS? 

5 hours ago, SEBSPEED

Wouldn't you be better served by checking the cost to ship via USPS? 

Package is to big thru usps.

I tried ups but I think I did something wrong as that quote was us$1300

4 minutes ago, boOZZIE

Package is to big thru usps.

I tried ups but I think I did something wrong as that quote was us$1300

For that kind of money, you'd be better off swimming over there to collect it.

Can you get mine while you're there?

Thanks. 😉

27 minutes ago, EX-XX

For that kind of money, you'd be better off swimming over there to collect it.

Can you get mine while you're there?

Thanks. 😉

Now wait for it....Australian import duties for these dimensions of a value over au$1000 , drum roll...$920

How many ozzies are on this list, How much would a shipping container cost?

13 minutes ago, boOZZIE

Now wait for it....Australian import duties for these dimensions of a value over au$1000 , drum roll...$920

 I'm sure the "dutiable value" will be less than $1000 when shipped 😉

Sorry to have been away - I had to get my heart restarted after hearing the cost of getting a set of pipes to AUS.

I’ll run a quote from USPS and through my Fedex account and see what they come up with.

1 minute ago, sfdownhill

Sorry to have been away - I had to get my heart restarted after hearing the cost of getting a set of pipes to AUS.

I’ll run a quote from USPS and through my Fedex account and see what they come up with.

I got reasonable quotes thru myus shipping however they don't include postal clearance(whatever that is?)

Wow, thank you guys for bringing this to fruition!

It seemed to be the old 80/10 rule, where the last 10% never gets done - until now.

i will need five sets.

1. 5th gen with PC2 and Wolf exhaust, can upgrade the fuel management with the new O2 bungs and would probably forward my midpipe to be expanded for fit by Wade.

2. 5th gen engine in 6th gen chassis with 2007 body (35th anniversary edition with 8th gen front forks and swinger) PCV with Staintune 6th gen exhaust.

3. 6th gen with Torocharger, will need 8th gen front downpipes to add additional 8th gen lower rad for engine temp control, Rapid Bike fuel management and Staintune for 6g

4. 5th gen track bike in 6g chassis - will need 8th gen front downpipes for removal of all sidemount rads for track day exploration of the envelope. Rapid bike and some can TBD...toying with paring front and rears only to run under tail exit for rear and under mount exit for front cylinders ala RC211V

5. 6th gen with rapid bike controller and stock exhaust.

Let me know how to forward the deposit. 

Shaping up up to the a great ‘19 !!!!

Keith

5 hours ago, boOZZIE

I got reasonable quotes thru myus shipping however they don't include postal clearance(whatever that is?)

That will most likely be import duties plus handling plus admin fees....  😞

9 hours ago, CornerCarver

Wow, thank you guys for bringing this to fruition!

It seemed to be the old 80/10 rule, where the last 10% never gets done - until now.

i will need five sets.

I believe that makes 15...

Ciao,

JZH

sent a pm, add me to the list.

need at least one. talking to a buddy about him getting one as well.

6 gen

who do I send a deposit to??

13 hours ago, CornerCarver

Wow, thank you guys for bringing this to fruition!

It seemed to be the old 80/10 rule, where the last 10% never gets done - until now.

i will need five sets.

1. 5th gen with PC2 and Wolf exhaust, can upgrade the fuel management with the new O2 bungs and would probably forward my midpipe to be expanded for fit by Wade.

2. 5th gen engine in 6th gen chassis with 2007 body (35th anniversary edition with 8th gen front forks and swinger) PCV with Staintune 6th gen exhaust.

3. 6th gen with Torocharger, will need 8th gen front downpipes to add additional 8th gen lower rad for engine temp control, Rapid Bike fuel management and Staintune for 6g

4. 5th gen track bike in 6g chassis - will need 8th gen front downpipes for removal of all sidemount rads for track day exploration of the envelope. Rapid bike and some can TBD...toying with paring front and rears only to run under tail exit for rear and under mount exit for front cylinders ala RC211V

5. 6th gen with rapid bike controller and stock exhaust.

Let me know how to forward the deposit. 

Shaping up up to the a great ‘19 !!!!

Keith

Thanks, Keith, you were a big part of making this happen! Lance will be updating the list later this evening. I think we are at 18 with yours and 3DCylces request. That was quick!

Just to give the group an update. We have scheduled the Dyno tune with Yosef at Attack Performance for Saturday January 26th (Yes I know, that's a ways off) They came highly recommended and he was very helpful and seems very knowledgeable. This, plus logistics of it made it our best option. Yosef said will be investigating with Dynojet to determine if making the best of a PCIII or getting a PCV to work would be worth while. If the latter works out, this opens a door for others who have been having trouble getting the PCV to work with a 5 Gen...

For the curious, Google Attack performance, WSBK, MotoGP, Josh Herrin...

I'm in for: (1) 5th gen and (1) 8th gen system, will send details in pm in a bit

Hope this isn't a dumb question, here goes: It seems to be assumed that every VFR getting one of these exhaust systems will also have some sort of tuning box/device.  I haven't gotten into tuning either of my 5th Gen VFRs, is it a necessity with this exhaust? 

I was just going to buy the exhaust as a replacement for the ugly, rusted OEM exhaust that's on my '99 without any thought about tuning the bike for more horsepower.

Am I thinking wrongly about this thing?

7 minutes ago, GreginDenver

Hope this isn't a dumb question, here goes: It seems to be assumed that every VFR getting one of these exhaust systems will also have some sort of tuning box/device.  I haven't gotten into tuning either of my 5th Gen VFRs, is it a necessity with this exhaust? 

I was just going to buy the exhaust as a replacement for the ugly, rusted OEM exhaust that's on my '99 without any thought about tuning the bike for more horsepower.

Am I thinking wrongly about this thing?

Bottom line, the bike will run, but it would be to your advantage to add a tuning device. You don't have to tune it for "ultimate powah" if you don't want to. You could instead tune it for efficiency if that were your preference. 

10 minutes ago, SEBSPEED

Bottom line, the bike will run, but it would be to your advantage to add a tuning device. You don't have to tune it for "ultimate powah" if you don't want to. You could instead tune it for efficiency if that were your preference. 

Guess I'll have to start reading up on the various boxes available for the 5th Gen, unless you're going to tell me that there's a clear winner in the group, an obvious choice that everyone agrees is the way to go.

Question... what is the final finishing process on these? Is it straight off the welding jig and into a shipping box, or is there a final finishing process such as chemical cleaning followed by satin brush/polish? 

3 hours ago, GreginDenver

Guess I'll have to start reading up on the various boxes available for the 5th Gen, unless you're going to tell me that there's a clear winner in the group, an obvious choice that everyone agrees is the way to go.

Greg - w the amazing restorations you’ve done on those motorcycles, you owe it to yourself to tune up the fueling. It means more money, but PCV w auto tune or Rapid Bike w auto tune will take care of customizing the fueling to your specific machine. The simplest, lowest cost route would be to find a used PC3 for the VFR800 (Dynojet PC3USB part # for 1998-2009 VFRs is 101-411EX) and try a couple of the maps available free from the Power Commander website.

Duc2V4 and I are guessing there will also be a fair bit of map swapping done here once dyno tuning of the new headers starts. A lot of vfrd members have very similar setups and could benefit from the same map.

EX-XX, 1/1/2019 at 2:36 PM

Like (many) others, I'm pretty happy to see something like this looking like eventuating. It's taken a long time to be potentially this close (not for lack of effort on behalf of a number of people!)

While I've put my hand up as interested in the headers themselves, "if" there is a full system eventually available with Carbon slip-on, I'd almost certainly be interested in the whole thing. (Will need to get a handle on shipping to Oz, though).

Given that the $AUD is falling against the $USD, I'd also be very keen to pay for the header/system in $USD if at all possible. (I guess the question there revolves around methods of payment available).

EX-XX, you and jimv have expressed interest in full systems [me too], and full systems for 5th gen are officially available. Add $275 to the cost of header for low mount system with aluminum muffler, $325 for carbon muffler. Add $25 for high mount because of additional structure required beyond the low mount's hanging loop support. Full system includes header assembly as described, midpipe, and muffler/canister [curses and swear words - I forgot to ask if header-to-midpipe would remain clamp fastened or be spring tension fittings. I'll find out]. Wade builds cylindrical mufflers of 4" diameter - picture the dimensions of a Staintune muffler which is also 4" diameter. He has a limited amount of carbon fiber on hand, but will be ordering more at a later date. Aluminum muffler materials are not in short supply. Those interested in full systems may specify the length of their muffler.

I have sent detailed photos of a 6th gen slipon and requested a quote for a 6th gen dual canister full system, but I haven't received that price yet. For 6th gen, he's leaning toward a single operational exhaust pipe and canister, with a dummy second canister to preserve 6th gen aesthetics - a la TBR.

CornerCarver, 1/2/2019 at 7:30 PM

Wow, thank you guys for bringing this to fruition!

It seemed to be the old 80/10 rule, where the last 10% never gets done - until now.

i will need five sets.

1. 5th gen with PC2 and Wolf exhaust, can upgrade the fuel management with the new O2 bungs and would probably forward my midpipe to be expanded for fit by Wade.

2. 5th gen engine in 6th gen chassis with 2007 body (35th anniversary edition with 8th gen front forks and swinger) PCV with Staintune 6th gen exhaust.

3. 6th gen with Torocharger, will need 8th gen front downpipes to add additional 8th gen lower rad for engine temp control, Rapid Bike fuel management and Staintune for 6g

4. 5th gen track bike in 6g chassis - will need 8th gen front downpipes for removal of all sidemount rads for track day exploration of the envelope. Rapid bike and some can TBD...toying with paring front and rears only to run under tail exit for rear and under mount exit for front cylinders ala RC211V

5. 6th gen with rapid bike controller and stock exhaust.

Let me know how to forward the deposit. 

Shaping up up to the a great ‘19 !!!!

Keith

Hey Keith - your quiver of VFRs is intriguing! You only mentioned a couple of your V4s when we met in CA. It's a relief to learn someone has finally put an 8th gen front end on a 5th or 6th gen; I've long hoped to see that. Your 5th/6th candidates have been added to the first production run and your 8th gens to the B list, which is giving every appearance of morphing into a second production run consisting of 8th gen headers. PM sent with deposit info.

If you get a chance, please chime in with how your two 5th gen engined bikes that run PCVs are performing for you. Darryl and I have been researching whether to upgrade the 5th gen test bike from PC3 to PCV for the dyno testing. All we've unearthed is a few VFRD and VFRW members struggling to get their 5th gens running right with PCVs - a couple of those guys removed the PCV altogether!

[If anyone else has a solid recommendation - with supporting reasons, please - whether to go PC3 or PCV for dyno testing the new header on a 5th gen, do share it soon!]

And of course, Keith, we can't wait to see the build thread on the VFR track weapon you're having built!

20 hours ago, JZH

I believe that makes 15...

Ciao,

JZH

Hey JZH - we're having to segregate the 5th/6th and 8th gen headers, putting 8th gen into the second run for now. So we might not be at 15 quite yet, but it's close! Cheers!

12 hours ago, SEBSPEED

Question... what is the final finishing process on these? Is it straight off the welding jig and into a shipping box, or is there a final finishing process such as chemical cleaning followed by satin brush/polish? 

Hi Seb! You bring up a very good point. I have not asked Wade what finishing treatment, if any, he applies to his exhaust products. I had assumed the headers would be finished as the 3 cylinder headers shown in the OP images. I'll follow up with him. Should we specify the chemical cleaning followed by satin brush/polish you describe if he does not intend to clean or brush the headers?

I did ask him about ceramic coating the headers, and he strongly recommend not ceramic coating them, because the high heat retained by the coating beings a degradation process on the stainless steel He pointed out that the TBR headers show signs of having been run lean enough long enough to begin very slight damage. The surface of the headers have a light surface roughness and coloration because of being subjected to higher than optimum heat.

On a separate topic, I could use a little guidance on VFRD etiquette; would it be more appropriate to post multiple answers to multiple posts in a single post, with answers to questions/information from multiple individuals? Or is it better to continue responding with a separate post to  answer each question? Thanks!

10 hours ago, sfdownhill

Hi Seb! You bring up a very good point. I have not asked Wade what finishing treatment, if any, he applies to his exhaust products. I had assumed the headers would be finished as the 3 cylinder headers shown in the OP images. I'll follow up with him. Should we specify the chemical cleaning followed by satin brush/polish you describe if he does not intend to clean or brush the headers?

I did ask him about ceramic coating the headers, and he strongly recommend not ceramic coating them, because the high heat retained by the coating beings a degradation process on the stainless steel He pointed out that the TBR headers show signs of having been run lean enough long enough to begin very slight damage. The surface of the headers have a light surface roughness and coloration because of being subjected to higher than optimum heat.

On a separate topic, I could use a little guidance on VFRD etiquette; would it be more appropriate to post multiple answers to multiple posts in a single post, with answers to questions/information from multiple individuals? Or is it better to continue responding with a separate post to  answer each question? Thanks!

I agree on not coating or wrapping stainless headers. Satin brush/polish would surely raise the price if it's not already included. It looks nice, but not sure what it's worth to Wade vs what premium folks here might pay for that. 

More important than looks however, is restoring the anti-corrosion properties at the weld joints. The high heat from welding removes the chromium oxide layer which is the element that prevents rust in/on SS. Mechanical cleaning (grinding/wire brushing/scotchbrite brushing) can accomplish this as the material will auto-passivate, but this only helps the outside of the joint. Dipping in a citric or nitric/hydroflouric acid bath would clean inside & out. Citric won't etch the material & will preserve the raw finished look while nitric/HF will etch and create a uniform silver (clean) look. 

That may be information overload there... and not hugely essential for production... but it would be nice. 

RE: your separate topic... do whatever's easiest for you... and thanks for the efforts so far!

Seb, would nitric/HF be the preferred option? 

Sfdownhill, yep the choice of response is upto you, whatever is easiest. 

4 hours ago, boOZZIE

Seb, would nitric/HF be the preferred option? 

Sfdownhill, yep the choice of response is upto you, whatever is easiest. 

Nitric/HF dip (full immersion) would be the best option for "ultimate" corrosion resistance with a bare/bright metal finish on this unsealed tubular construction.  

Whether it is the best option for this run of headers remains to be seen. It could add a lot of cost if the parts have to be shipped in bulk to a chem processing facility and back again for distribution.

In reality it may not be overly important, as Honda themselves don't even do this - you can see the weld joints are the first place our headers usually start to rot. I was really just curious if there was a finishing process planned for them, and I went and complicated things from there. lol

😀No no I think it's a valid point, as I see it, most of us that are in this consider the/our vfr (s) as keepers and would not  want to be going thru this process again in the years ahead.

4 hours ago, SEBSPEED

Nitric/HF dip (full immersion) would be the best option for "ultimate" corrosion resistance with a bare/bright metal finish on this unsealed tubular construction.  

Whether it is the best option for this run of headers remains to be seen. It could add a lot of cost if the parts have to be shipped in bulk to a chem processing facility and back again for distribution.

In reality it may not be overly important, as Honda themselves don't even do this - you can see the weld joints are the first place our headers usually start to rot. I was really just curious if there was a finishing process planned for them, and I went and complicated things from there. lol

1% HF and 12% HNO3 by weight could be painted on the welds...dipping the whole thing may not be necessary...

6 minutes ago, zupatun

1% HF and 12% HNO3 by weight could be painted on the welds...dipping the whole thing may not be necessary...

Right. It's only needed if one wants to treat the back side/inside as well. 

9 minutes ago, SEBSPEED

Right. It's only needed if one wants to treat the back side/inside as well. 

It can't hurt to ask if an HF/HNO3 dip is included with the basic spa treatment - we'll checkum it out. My guess is treatment and brushing or other finishing is not included at the price the header is offered. If not, it is likely that Wade knows of, or one of us can find a qualified facility to treat individual headers if so desired.

Seb, in your experience, what might one expect to pay for dipping a set of headers in nitric/HL?

And here is an oversight we're now addressing - a center stand stop on the header is needed for 6th gen owners who will be using their own slipons and not a full system from our fabricator. Note - we are still waiting on a price quote from him for a 6th gen upgrade to full system. He has been provided  with photos of the OEM 6th gen muffler assembly for purposes of pricing a full 6th gen system. If / when a 6th gen full system is quoted, it will include a center stand stop on the midpipe. The quoted price for the new header does not include a center stand stop because we asked Wade to price a replica of the TBR with the specs listed in the OP. Neither the TBR nor our additional specs have a center stand stop, so the price quote does not include a center stand stop. I have sent a request asking what it would cost - per header - to add a small bracket to the production header that would hold a center stand stop in the OEM 6th gen stop position. Last week we delivered a set of OEM 6th gen headers to Wade's shop, so he does have an example of a 6th gen's center stand stop placement. Updates will be provided.

Unfortunately, my experience was on the processing end, so I'm of no help with pricing references. All I can really add is that it will likely be more cost efficient to process a batch of headers at a chem processing facility vs doing one or two. 

There are a couple guys on the list of individuals who placed deposits that haven't yet placed their deposits. At end of day Friday January 11, we will update the A list to accurately represent deposits actually received so get 'em in.

12 hours ago, sfdownhill

There are a couple guys on the list of individuals who placed deposits that haven't yet placed their deposits. At end of day Friday January 11, we will update the A list to accurately represent deposits actually received so get 'em in.

I didn't see details in the OP... how do I "get it in"?

Hi Seb - I apologize; I should have reponded to your PM w how and where to place deposits. I will do so now. 

On another note - CornerCarver has order 5 headers, 2 of which (could be 3 - I have to check) are 8th gens. Are either the 5/6th or 8th headers you are ordering  intended  for him? Thought I’d pipe up to avoid a potential doubling of your intended order.

1 hour ago, sfdownhill

Hi Seb - I apologize; I should have reponded to your PM w how and where to place deposits. I will do so now. 

On another note - CornerCarver has order 5 headers, 2 of which (could be 3 - I have to check) are 8th gens. Are either the 5/6th or 8th headers you are ordering  intended  for him? Thought I’d pipe up to avoid a potential doubling of your intended order.

Thanks, got it. 

And no - the headers I have requested are for my own projects. Our (CC & me) orders will be separate but there is potential for crossover with shipping. I'll explain in PM. 

Can Nick Gamuranes please PM me or post here and let me know what your username is so I can accurately associate your deposit with your person? Thanks

This is nick checking in.

Copy that - you are checked in as deposit received. Thank you sir.

There are a few updates, but first for the important stuff...pipe porn sent today!

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The GSXR750 crush gaskets arrived yesterday, and I had a chance to measure and install/crush them today.

[image: 2024418500_GSXR750gaskets1.thumb.jpg.d1f3da4a784c3f7aec8816f51afe90ff.jpg]

[image: 1673286340_GSXR750gaskets3.thumb.JPG.747ab1fda9fa609c80f9f36393384ffa.JPG][image: 1440607522_GSXR750gaskets4.thumb.JPG.d664ef331c6458b1fbfb9f91f9faf5d3.JPG]

I couldn't get the gaskets to fit into the exhaust mounting sleeve in the head, even after judiciously Dremeling at opposite sides to get them past the header stud bosses, then putting a little chamfer on one edge, hoping it would start into the sleeve - no joy.

Mohawk - do you recall how you got these crush gaskets to fit into the sleeve? Perhaps some very careful high speed grinding of their edges?

[image: 836721983_GSXR750gaskets5.thumb.JPG.78a2fed228e5a56e98037d0fc4482b1d.JPG]

I was going to try using the force of torquing the header flange nuts to squeeze the gaskets into place before crushing them, but I coudn't get a nut started onto the threads.

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Next topic - earlier in this thread, Sebspeed, boOZZIE, and zupatun discussed passivation - chemical treatment of newly welded stainless steel exhausts.  After passivation, the chromium oxide surface layer that inhibits corrosion of stainless reforms when exposed to air...YAY! Finally a component of this project that is FREE! I called a local metal finishing firm and spoke with their estimator George, who was very helpful. They use a citric acid dip to passivate metal structures. The citric acid process they use exceeds milspec, and they use it for medical stainless steel structures and many other products. I asked George if they use citric acid because it's illegal to use nitric acid/hyrofluoric acid in California, and he said no, it's not a state or regulatory issue. They get best results from it, exceeding specification and certification requirements. George said that the size of our header assembly requires a double-dip [His term, not mine, but it does make a chemical bath sound like more fun].  So treating a single header assembly would cost $110. They would consider a lower per-unit cost if greater quantities were processed, and would quote 'batch pricing' after passivating the first header.

I spoke with Wade today, and we covered several checklist items:

1 - He doesn't do polishing or finishing of his products, nor does he send his products out to be passivated.

2 - He will make a midpipe to fit the new headers to an existing slipon for $50. I neglected to ask if he'd need the slipon to be shipped to him, but I'll ask him next time we talk. We are having a full system made for the 5th gen that will be used for dyno testing, and Wade will make a $50 midpipe to fit from the 98/99 headers currently on the bike to the muffler he will build, so we can do the baseline run with the same muffler that will be used for the tune.

3 - on the topic of coloring stainless exhaust systems black or other colors, like ceramic coating [As mentioned in an earlier post, ceramic coating retains too much heat which damages stainless steel], he is not familiar with any coloring processes that work with stainless steel exhausts. He recommended calling CeraKote - the big dog in the manufacturing of ceramic coating products.

4 - Regarding adding four M18 O2 sensor bungs - one in each primary - to allow each cylinder to be tuned independently; in his opinion, the intrusion of four bungs into the primaries' gas flow path would hurt performance more than it would help improve a dyno or auto tune.

5 - The connection of header collector to midpipe in full systems and on midpipes he builds will be by clamp. He has a supplier of T-bolt clamps that he describes as 'bitchin'

[I'm not sure if this means the T-bolt supplier is a hot woman, or the clamps are of high quality]

6 - For 6th geners who will be using their existing slipons: Wade compared the location of the center stand stop [CSS] on OEM 6th gen headers at his shop to the TBR. On the 6th gens, the CSS extends a significant distance out from the back from the catalytic converter. It would have to extend even further back from the TBR, whose collector is further forward than the OEM cat. He doesn't think welding a CSS onto the new headers will be structurally sound. He suggested clamping a CSS onto the midpipes of existing 6th gen slipons [Duc2V4 uses this method for his 6th gen with 98/99 headers and TBR slipons]. Wade thinks there might be a possibility of attaching a CSS to some point on the cush bracket or another structure 'down there' - we will check that possibility when he gets his hands on the fitment bike.

Hi Lance, I see where the problem is there. Not sure in the USA, but over here we have two types of exhaust gaskets. The cheap nasty things you have there which are square section metal coated asbestos substitute, or round section copper gaskets, which look like a bulls nose ring, thus the 42mm OD is the outside of a circlular edge. This gasket type is much thinner & will fully deform to fit the port, crushing from an original thickness of 5mm+/- down to 1.5mm & conforming to all irregularities. The ones you have are quite stiff & don't  deform much, plus being square section they have to have a square section port to fit into !  Apologies for not making that clear, but I never use the square ones, I've had leaks with them in the past, so never even consider them ! 😞  The TBR has a very small flange lip compared to other systems, not sure what yours will be like, but worth considering the OD of the flange, has to fit the port obviously.

[image: copper-EX-gaskets.thumb.jpg.1a9d8aa2acf2915b623e3698706abeb1.jpg]

46 minutes ago, Mohawk

Hi Lance, I see where the problem is there. Not sure in the USA, but over here we have two types of exhaust gaskets. The cheap nasty things you have there which are square section metal coated asbestos substitute, or round section copper gaskets, which look like a bulls nose ring, thus the 42mm OD is the outside of a circlular edge. This gasket type is much thinner & will fully deform to fit the port, crushing from an original thickness of 5mm+/- down to 1.5mm & conforming to all irregularities. The ones you have are quite stiff & don't  deform much, plus being square section they have to have a square section port to fit into !  Apologies for not making that clear, but I never use the square ones, I've had leaks with them in the past, so never even consider them ! 😞  The TBR has a very small flange lip compared to other systems, not sure what yours will be like, but worth considering the OD of the flange, has to fit the port obviously.

[image: copper-EX-gaskets.thumb.jpg.1a9d8aa2acf2915b623e3698706abeb1.jpg]

Thanks for the pointer Mohawk - I will jettison the remaining square section gaskets. The round section type in the photo you posted is the type I'm used to, mostly because that's what the VFR800 and CRF450R use as OEM. Glad I only ordered 3 of the square for testing. Do you recall if you sourced your 42mm round section gaskets from a dealer? I looked up the GSXR750 part number, trotted into the local Suzie dealer [Friendly bunch that are also the nearest Honda dealer], ordered the parts, and square was what came in. Delkevic sells round section 41mm, 43mm,, 44mm, and a few larger sizes, but no 42mm.

I got mine off ebay, advertised for a whole raft of Suzuki's but its the OD that matters. Measure the ports on your head, 42mm was the largest I could get in mine & the TBR flange is a welded on larger diameter tube.  You can see the differences here between TBR on left in black & Motad on right. I had a the O2 sensor boss welded onto the TBR for wideband sensor use.

[image: IMG_0282.JPG]

I bought mine 42mm, from delkevic a couple of years ago. Not listed on the website, so I emailed them to see if available.

1 hour ago, Mohawk

I got mine off ebay, advertised for a whole raft of Suzuki's but its the OD that matters. Measure the ports on your head, 42mm was the largest I could get in mine & the TBR flange is a welded on larger diameter tube.  You can see the differences here between TBR on left in black & Motad on right. I had a the O2 sensor boss welded onto the TBR for wideband sensor use.

[image: IMG_0282.JPG]

Cool - I’ll check out ebay’s raft’o’gaskets. It’s interesting to see you’re running a single O2 sensor on your TBR. Is that the configuration you have your Rapid Bike auto tune sniffing?

1 minute ago, gig

I bought mine 42mm, from delkevic a couple of years ago. Not listed on the website, so I emailed them to see if available.

I messaged Delkevic too, but I made the mistake of telling them I had a VFR800 - their response was “use the 41mm gaskets”

Yes, MyTuningBike (MTB) connected to WideBand sensor. The new MTB support the lastest Bosch 4.9 sensor which is miles better than the older 4.2 that I have. I'll upgrade to one this year as I already have the sensor from when I was manually tuning the O2 before I added the MTB.  The nice thing about the MTB is it corrects on the fly, you don't have to add its corrections to the base map, but you can. I did a trackday last year & was to noisy at 109.5db, so had to put a spud in the can, it passed noise testing fine, I was OK with this as the MTB would adjust the AFR to suit the new pipe configuration !

Deposits for 2 sets sent, sorry for the delay. 

35 minutes ago, SEBSPEED

Deposits for 2 sets sent, sorry for the delay. 

Thanks Seb - PM confirmation sent.

3 hours ago, Mohawk

Yes, MyTuningBike (MTB) connected to WideBand sensor.

I'm doing the same, currently, on a delkevic system. Had a bung welded into the pipe just behind the collector, where the two stock sensors are installed.

As an aside, how do I know which sensor I have? I just bought the MTB kit and installed it, but didn't realize they have a newer, better sensor. Not that it matters much, but now I'm interested to know.

Whatever, on the new headers I will definitely do something similar. Need an exhaust bung on the midpipe as close to the collector point as possible -- whether wade does that for me or I deal with someone nearby.  it is super nice to have.  Taking the silencer plug out of my can or putting it back in is mindless. It just works.

5 hours ago, sfdownhill

I messaged Delkevic too, but I made the mistake of telling them I had a VFR800 - their response was “use the 41mm gaskets”

I cut a 43mm with dremel cutting wheel slightly opened and closed ends to get a 42mm or maximum width of exhaust port.

May be an option 

[image: IMG_5938.jpg]

Can a 5th gen be made to run well with the Power Commander V?

Duc2V4 and I would like to reemphasize our request for examples of or hearsay about any 5th gens or 5th gen power plants running happily and performing well with a Power Commander V. We will have a Power Commander IIIUSB and a Power Commander V on hand for the dyno testing of the prototype header, but will only use one or the other for all baseline runs and test/tuning. At this time, all our research indicates that the PCV causes problems with basic rideability on  the 5th gen. Though the PCV offers finer tuning across more parameters, it would be counterproductive to waste $125/hr dyno time getting the bike to run right.

Thanks for any input.

As far as the PCV goes - I would say maybe.  From the discussion here, there seems to be some kind of issue with the newer firmware and 5th gens.  I have been running mine with no issues since 2010, I have also never updated the firmware.  I run autotune all the time with a vacuum switch hooked up to turn the autotune off during overrun - I was getting really wonky trim values at low throttle openings until this was performed.  I have tried running with autotune disabled and noticed no ill effects; of course this is just running the stored map built from the autotune data.  If it is of consequence, I have calibrated the internal "gear indicator" and adjusted target AFRs for each gear, throttle position, and RPM.  My O2 sensor is positioned in the 2nd merge collector (all 4 cyl) and I don't run any special offsets for the front vs. rear banks.

I've been strongly considering MyTuningBike for the ability to run O2 sensors in each bank, but what I have works fairly well and the cost of entry for MTB is steep. 

Thanks MS! I love the smell of empirical data in the morning...smells like...victory.

(pardon the Apocalypse Now paraphrasing)

Sounds like a possible course of action would be to install the PCV well in advance of the fast-approaching dyno date (Jan 26), road test it with a zero map, then with a map from the Dynojet website, and see how she rolls.

We’re still open to additional input, data points, suggestions, or warnings.

Let.  Me. Know.  when you plan to do dyno stuff with the 8G.

I have my stock,  3 different lengths of mufflers,  a stock and a modded airbox with candyred's  glued-and-sanded-smooth R6 velocity stacks installed,  clean stock,  and <500 mile pipercross filters,  the RapidBike Racing module,  with the "override back to stock for CARB compliance" module on standby along with a bluetooth kit and my own laptop with the rapid bike tuning software on it.  

we could do all sorts of different stages of tune. 

I'd even kick around the idea of whether or not changing the drivetrain gearing picks up measurable power.  could pick up a stock 520,  and +1 520 front to measure up to 9 rear teeth's worth of drive gear adjustment.

I would adore being involved,  but I need a few months of advance time so I can put in leave with the navy to spend the odd 2-4 days wrenching and dyno pulling if I had my way.  

9 hours ago, MadScientist

As far as the PCV goes - I would say maybe.  From the discussion here, there seems to be some kind of issue with the newer firmware and 5th gens.  I have been running mine with no issues since 2010, I have also never updated the firmware.  I run autotune all the time with a vacuum switch hooked up to turn the autotune off during overrun - I was getting really wonky trim values at low throttle openings until this was performed.  I have tried running with autotune disabled and noticed no ill effects; of course this is just running the stored map built from the autotune data.  If it is of consequence, I have calibrated the internal "gear indicator" and adjusted target AFRs for each gear, throttle position, and RPM.  My O2 sensor is positioned in the 2nd merge collector (all 4 cyl) and I don't run any special offsets for the front vs. rear banks.

I've been strongly considering MyTuningBike for the ability to run O2 sensors in each bank, but what I have works fairly well and the cost of entry for MTB is steep. 

MadScientist, can you please expand on the 5th gen 'internal gear indicator', how to calibrate it, and how a PCV receives this data? I was under the impression that our beloved 5th gens have no means of keeping track of gear selection other than neutral. Love to learn otherwise.

17 minutes ago, Voided76

Let.  Me. Know.  when you plan to do dyno stuff with the 8G.

I have my stock,  3 different lengths of mufflers,  a stock and a modded airbox with candyred's  glued-and-sanded-smooth R6 velocity stacks installed,  clean stock,  and <500 mile pipercross filters,  the RapidBike Racing module,  with the "override back to stock for CARB compliance" module on standby along with a bluetooth kit and my own laptop with the rapid bike tuning software on it.  

we could do all sorts of different stages of tune. 

I'd even kick around the idea of whether or not changing the drivetrain gearing picks up measurable power.  could pick up a stock 520,  and +1 520 front to measure up to 9 rear teeth's worth of drive gear adjustment.

I would adore being involved,  but I need a few months of advance time so I can put in leave with the navy to spend the odd 2-4 days wrenching and dyno pulling if I had my way.  

Yessir Voided76! And it appears you and I are almost neighbors - I'm in north SD county [Let's ride some time - I'll PM]. Your collection of assorted oomph-adding devices for the 8th gen would make an interesting test bed for tuning the new headers to the motorcycle's particular characteristics.

At this time, Wade is focused on test fitment of the 5/6th prototype, dyno testing and moving into the first production run of 5/6th headers. It appears that a second run of 8th gen headers could very well be phase 2, but until testing of the 5/6th gen is completed and production underway, it's unwise to forecast timelines. Wade has expressed interest in prototyping the 8th gen for testing, but he is disciplined and his process is to focus on one project at a time, through completion.

13 hours ago, sfdownhill

Can a 5th gen be made to run well with the Power Commander V?

Duc2V4 and I would like to reemphasize our request for examples of or hearsay about any 5th gens or 5th gen power plants running happily and performing well with a Power Commander V. We will have a Power Commander IIIUSB and a Power Commander V on hand for the dyno testing of the prototype header, but will only use one or the other for all baseline runs and test/tuning. At this time, all our research indicates that the PCV causes problems with basic rideability on  the 5th gen. Though the PCV offers finer tuning across more parameters, it would be counterproductive to waste $125/hr dyno time getting the bike to run right.

Thanks for any input.

I think the issue was with the later version of the 5th gens: Y2k-'01  At least, that's what I have, and I am one of those who could not get the PCV to work (PCIII USB works fine).  The best way of resolving the issue would be for DynoJet to deal with it using their expert knowledge of the PCV's operations and Honda PGM-Fi systems, but despite others having solicited their help, they don't seem especially interested in solving the problem. 

The Power Commander website still lists the same PCV part number for all VFR800s from 1998 to 2009 (i.e., all RC46), and notes that the PCIII USB has been discontinued for these models.  Unfortunately, DJ has form on this: when they discovered problems getting the Power Commander working with the (then new) ST1300, DJ eventually just discontinued their support for that model, rather than solve the problem, so I would expect they will just write off the RC46, which has now been out of production for about ten years...

Ciao,

JZH

6 hours ago, sfdownhill

MadScientist, can you please expand on the 5th gen 'internal gear indicator', how to calibrate it, and how a PCV receives this data? I was under the impression that our beloved 5th gens have no means of keeping track of gear selection other than neutral. Love to learn otherwise.

The bike doesn't know what gear it is in, but the PCV has vehicle speed and RPM inputs.  I calibrated the PCV  by entering the speed:rpm ratios for each gear by, you guessed it, riding around with a laptop stuck in a tank bag.  This would be trivial to do with a dyno, however.

You can purchase a display from powercommander that interfaces with the PCV and displays vehicle data, including the calculated gear position.  I called it an 'internal gear indicator' because I can't actually see what gear it thinks I'm in, unless I have a laptop hooked up while riding.

13 hours ago, JZH

I think the issue was with the later version of the 5th gens: Y2k-'01  At least, that's what I have, and I am one of those who could not get the PCV to work (PCIII USB works fine).  The best way of resolving the issue would be for DynoJet to deal with it using their expert knowledge of the PCV's operations and Honda PGM-Fi systems, but despite others having solicited their help, they don't seem especially interested in solving the problem. 

The Power Commander website still lists the same PCV part number for all VFR800s from 1998 to 2009 (i.e., all RC46), and notes that the PCIII USB has been discontinued for these models.  Unfortunately, DJ has form on this: when they discovered problems getting the Power Commander working with the (then new) ST1300, DJ eventually just discontinued their support for that model, rather than solve the problem, so I would expect they will just write off the RC46, which has now been out of production for about ten years...

Ciao,

JZH

Hi JZH - thanks for adding your input. Your experience with 5th gen and PCV is one of the tales that worry us, because you definitely know your way around a VFR, and if you couldn't get it to play nice, it doesn't bode well. We have had the same experience as you when speaking with/emailing Dynojet; "What do you mean it doesn't work correctly? Of course it works correctly. No, we don't have any application notes or data suggesting there may be an interface issue between the OEM ECU and the PCV. Do you have any other questions that I can not help you with at this time?"

9 hours ago, MadScientist

The bike doesn't know what gear it is in, but the PCV has vehicle speed and RPM inputs.  I calibrated the PCV  by entering the speed:rpm ratios for each gear by, you guessed it, riding around with a laptop stuck in a tank bag.  This would be trivial to do with a dyno, however.

You can purchase a display from powercommander that interfaces with the PCV and displays vehicle data, including the calculated gear position.  I called it an 'internal gear indicator' because I can't actually see what gear it thinks I'm in, unless I have a laptop hooked up while riding.

MS - love the workaround you developed to identify gear selection! I picture you in full kit, laptop strapped to the tank bag on  your 5th gen [Talk about distracted riding], ripping around in one gear at a time then stopping to tell the PCV "And that was second gear," before moving on to third. I'll ping our dyno tech and confirm that he'll be able to perform gear mapping during our session. The PCV should arrive by Tuesday and I'll connect to it and see which version firmware it has. Perhaps we'll get lucky and it will have a version comparable to yours, AND that firmware will be compatible with current Dynojet dyno software.

MooseMoose, 1/10/2019 at 6:36 PM

As an aside, how do I know which sensor I have? I just bought the MTB kit and installed it, but didn't realize they have a newer, better sensor. Not that it matters much, but now I'm interested to know.

Do a search for Bosch LSU 4.2 connector and/or 4.9..  The 4.9 is the latest, it uses a fixed reference circuit for a zero mark, where the 4.2 uses fresh air which it rarely sees in an exhaust. The 4.2 zero can drift over time, where as the 4.9 is electronically fixed, and it has a faster response time, which is better for a bike engine. But the 4.9 did not exist when the first MTB was designed ! 

If if you have a recent MTB which is not old stock it should be on the 4.9, as they were introduced about 2 years ago.

Regarding single point wideband sensor, you don’t need to worry about front rear cylinder trims. The factory ECU map sends different trim values to the injectors already. IIRC the rear cylinders always run a bit richer than the fronts, to compensate for their warmer position and in the airflow.  So if you use a single sensor you are adjusting both banks equally.

To explain, let’s say at X rpm & Y throttle position the stock ECU sends front value 50 & rear value 55. Your internal or external (on dyno) AFR probe, decides you should have +5 added for the ideal AFR you have set the system for (13.2/1 for Dynojet, adjustable in RapidBike) , so all the injectors get a +5 signal added to the base ECU value, so the fronts now see 55 & the rears 60 !  So the offset trim values are maintained, regardless of which piggy back system you use. 

Hope me that makes sense.

gig, 1/10/2019 at 12:55 PM

I cut a 43mm with dremel cutting wheel slightly opened and closed ends to get a 42mm or maximum width of exhaust port.

May be an option 

[image: IMG_5938.jpg]

Gig, I like your approach - did a couple circumference calcs and it makes sense. When you say you slightly opened and closed the ends, did that allow you to insert one end into the other, thereby eliminating any gap and possible leak point?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/KAWASAKI-ZX7R-NINJA-42MM-EXHAUST-GASKETS-REPLACES-PART-11060-1103/281094910176?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&amp;_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

8 hours ago, sfdownhill

Gig, I like your approach - did a couple circumference calcs and it makes sense. When you say you slightly opened and closed the ends, did that allow you to insert one end into the other, thereby eliminating any gap and possible leak point?

Correct 

19 hours ago, Mohawk

If if you have a recent MTB which is not old stock it should be on the 4.9, as they were introduced about 2 years ago.

I'll search for it. I got mine a couple of years ago so I'm on the cusp. Now I wonder.  Thanks for the info.

Unfortunately the electronic support circuits for each version are NOT compatible, so if you have a 4.2 version you have to buy a complete new MTB to get the 4.9 version !

Yeah, seems that's the case. I think I have 4.9, but I'm going to look just because I want to know. It's all moot, the system works well right now and I expect it'll be perfect with the new exhaust either way. The benefit really comes in that I can swap cans, or fit a silencer plug, or do whatever repairs as I fix up the bike and have no need for a new  dyno run. Even imperfect but pretty darned close beats the heck out of dropping a couple hundred on dyno runs to make rich and lean maps every time I fix something.

The 4.9 version has a smaller plug that is completely oval where the 4.2 is bigger and has a flat side to the oval.

I use 4.9's on the VFR and also on the MV F3 I work on.

Also, just make sure that if you are sealing the headers up stream of the O2 sensor, use a sealant that is O2 sensor safe.  some HT silicones are not.

On that note, making sure that there are no air leaks in to the headers, up stream AND down stream of the sensor is extremely important in getting the best and most accurate results.

Make sure that the PAIR system is completely removed and well sealed.

Bit of memory loss :wacko: , for 6g, The MTB wideband sensor is in addition to the 2 factory O2 sensors?

13 hours ago, boOZZIE

Bit of memory loss :wacko: , for 6g, The MTB wideband sensor is in addition to the 2 factory O2 sensors?

Yes. Same as for the 5th gen 00-01 bikes.

The sensor goes in separately, after the merge.  There's a checkbox on the software to fudge the data if you leave the stock sensors in place, and they remain in place so nothing silly happens at the ECU.

On my 5th gen I just had a local shop pop a bung in the mid pipe as close down stream of the merge as I could fit it.

18 hours ago, HighSideNZ

Make sure that the PAIR system is completely removed and well sealed.

 Absolutely! Mine was a leaky mess as is. I yanked that BEFORE I did the MTB and my idle changed a touch, which tells me it wasn't exactly working per spec anyway. You can argue about flapper mods, and I can see both sides, but I will ALWAYS recommend yanking the PAIR, regardless.

But if it's letting fresh air in you straight up won't get the right readings. Probably run rich and fluctuate based on how you're riding and how much air those valves are leaking in.

3 hours ago, MooseMoose

Yes. Same as for the 5th gen 00-01 bikes.

The sensor goes in separately, after the merge.  There's a checkbox on the software to fudge the data if you leave the stock sensors in place, and they remain in place so nothing silly happens at the ECU.

On my 5th gen I just had a local shop pop a bung in the mid pipe as close down stream of the merge as I could fit it.

In this position?  Re Mohawk's pic p3

[image: Mohawk's.jpg]

I'd get 3 bungs put in the pipe myself.  Like this.

[image: image.thumb.png.a42dd82f7ebd3f8aad68bc305fbcaf7c.png]

A single one past the last collector and one each just past the other collectors.

Then you can tune each set individually if you want.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Thanks highside, yep just using Mohawk's pic to visually check the posi of MTB o2 sensor. 

OP

:wacko: header will have two O2 sensor bosses at 2000-2009 OEM header's O2 sensor locations: one O2 sensor boss on secondary tube after left front/left rear primary merge, one O2 sensor boss on secondary tube after right front/right rear primary merge

Cheers  

I have a PC5 on my ‘98 and it runs perfect. 

In response to “Voided76” being curious about gearing affecting horsepower readings, it does not. It only aids in the engine’s mechanical advantage over the wheel, but, does not change engine output or horsepower numbers read by a dyno. 

47 minutes ago, ducnut

I have a PC5 on my ‘98 and it runs perfect. 

In response to “Voided76” being curious about gearing affecting horsepower readings, it does not. It only aids in the engine’s mechanical advantage over the wheel, but, does not change engine output or horsepower numbers read by a dyno. 

Thanks ducnut - that's a relief to hear. It sounds like you have connected the pink speed wire for speed/gear sensing, correct? Have you also connected the temperature sensor input to the PCV? 

PCV clearly offers significant advantages, but if it presented any headaches/delays during the dyno sessions, it would quickly lose favor. I'll get the PCV installed and test run early next week.

Here it is...a real header made of real molecules.

There are a number of extra welds - especially in the primaries - because this is a built-from-scratch prototype. The welds along the primaries, secondaries, and collector will not be present in the production headers because the bender vendor will be setting up a mandrel to bend all the tubing to Wade's specifications, so he won't have to weld shorter sections together as he did on the prototype.

We'll be heading over to pick up the prototype tomorrow afternoon or next Wednesday. We've got the exhaust off of an innocent donor 5th gen and will take the bike to Wade's shop to confirm fitment or make adjustments on site. It was a little nerve wracking that he built straight from the TBR without confirming fitment, but if he's not worried about it, we're not worried about it!

[image: 1433751036_originalprototype1.thumb.JPG.c7a6e28909a0e735d4df0d431b4beb9b.JPG]

[image: 472539107_originalprototype2.thumb.JPG.ed1c46489f51586275a00514b4a5f875.JPG]

44 minutes ago, sfdownhill

Thanks ducnut - that's a relief to hear. It sounds like you have connected the pink speed wire for speed/gear sensing, correct? Have you also connected the temperature sensor input to the PCV? 

I bought it used with the map in it. The only connections I made were to the EFI interface and battery. It came with no instructions, download cables, etc; just the module itself. 

Can’t wait for the results. 99% I’ll be in for a 5th gen header.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

May I please tap into the collective knowledge base about O2 sensor bung placement?

Jozef, the dyno tech/engine builder/tuner at Attack Performance, recommends an O2 sensor in each primary 7 inches from the port for optimum tuning. Jozef has Bosch 4.9 wideband sensors that he installs to facilitate his tuning. The O2 sensors will be removed and the bungs plugged after the dyno tuning process is completed.

Wade - the man actually building the headers - does not like the idea of an O2 sensor protruding into each of the four primaries, and strongly recommends against installing them. He does find it acceptable to install a sensor in each primary if the bung height is set such that the sensor's business end does not extend into the gas flow path in the primary. Whether we enable Jozef to tune each cylinder individually, or tune the fueling of all four cylinders together, we will have him set up the PCV's gear sensing and optimize fueling for each gear.

In pursuit of optimized tuning of the new header, I seek wise counsel from Mohawk, HighSideNZ, CandyRedRC46, MadScientist, and others who have experimented with O2 sensors for tuning via autotune, dyno, or laptop-strapped-to-bike:

[1] Would O2 sensors in all four primaries interrupt the exhaust flow enough to be detrimental?

[2] Would Jozef's Bosch 4.9 wideband sensors function correctly if their bungs were placed at a height such that the sensor tips did not extend in to the gas flow?

[3] Would the advantages of Jozef being able to tune each cylinder's fueling individually outweigh the potential penalty brought by the O2 sensors' position in the primaries?

[4] On a Bosch 4.9 wideband O2 sensor, what is the measured distance from its deepest thread point [where it seats against the bung] to the end tip of its sensor?

[5] Should I cease and desist attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist and have Jozef shove a single sniffer down the tailpipe, then tune a single map for all four cylinders combined?

Thanks for kicking in suggestions

20 minutes ago, ScottieDucati

Can’t wait for the results. 99% I’ll be in for a 5th gen header.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sounds good Scottie. BTW, you have discerning taste in race bikes!

Outstanding sfdh

#applause

sfdownhill  
Sounds good Scottie. BTW, you have discerning taste in race bikes!

All the high-end stuff has sensors in the individual runners. What I can’t say is how far they protrude into exhaust flow.

Richard and Jozef know their stuff, given they’ve went so far as to try and campaign a prototype bike in MotoGP (no matter what platform it was based off of), have built some the fastest bikes on the planet and in any paddock, and have bikes that currently remain at the pointy end of any grid. I’d be most inclined to follow their advice, since they’re on the frontline and have firsthand knowledge of what does what. 

Re 4 o2 sensors, 

I think that's the best tuning option for that bike but how does that effect the end  user that will have a different setup? 2 stock + 1 wideband 

 I will not be buying 4 MTB modules. Maybe if I was going down the path of diff cams , bigger pistons etc.

A Flipping prototype  :cheerleader: :bliss: :woohoo:

37 minutes ago, ducnut

All the high-end stuff has sensors in the individual runners. What I can’t say is how far they protrude into exhaust flow.

Richard and Jozef know their stuff, given they’ve went so far as to try and campaign a prototype bike in MotoGP (no matter what platform it was based off of), have built some the fastest bikes on the planet and in any paddock, and have bikes that currently remain at the pointy end of any grid. I’d be most inclined to follow their advice, since they’re on the frontline and have firsthand knowledge of what does what. 

Agreed, ducnut. You don't pay a lawyer $300/hour then ignore their advice. I'm working to reconcile Wade's concern as the builder with Richard and Jozef's thoroughly vetted tuning procedure. To fly in the face of Wade's direct recommendation at this point would send a message to him that our community does not intend to send.

We are talking about road bike here not bleeding edge WSBK or MotoGP machines.

I would just stick with the 3 bungs as I outlined on my earlier marked up image.

I've had good results with this set up in the past.

we also need to keep in mind that most add on modules like the RB Racing and PCV will possibly have only 2 maps that directly relate to the OEM ECU and the way the fueling was originally laid out.  EG: What headers were merged etc.

My 2c worth.

I'm of the 3 bungs camp.

Here's the deal, I think the ONLY person here who has a quad of sensors on a VFR is @CandyRedRC46 , and he already has a TBR exhaust.

I seriously doubt any of us are going to do more than one, or two, of these lambda sensors. It would be best to just sniff down the exhaust  and get the 4 cylinder average, just like we're all going to do. PCIII folks are going to dyno it with a sniffer in the tail, rapidbike MTB and PC Autotune folks are going to stick with our current sensors.

As for the question of whether 4 sensors will destroy the flow, I understand the concern. But @CandyRedRC46 had one in each downpipe and has posted impressive dyno runs. We're talking RC45 race bike level numbers on a 6th gen. 120hp is pretty impressive for a VFR. I don't think that's a problem, though if he's still paying attention maybe my tagging him will let HIM tell us of his reasoning. 

That said, I still don't think it's worth the effort for this particular exercise as most of us just want a nice header that isn't rotten or a chinese piece of marginal quality. A little gain in the high end is a nice benefit, I think most of us will be happy to see it, but the last 2% of horsepower or mileage you get from PERFECTLY balanced cylinder fueling can be left on the table.

Oh, also, note that a map on one bike is not going to be the same as a map on another. They may be close, but fine tuning each cylinder on a test bike won't match a differen't bike's airflow, fuel injector condition, etc.  If you're looking for a base map for PCIII or non AutoTune folks, I doubt it'll really be helpful for folks who want to build a map for their own bikes. After 20 years, they're all kind of snowflakes, especially with wear and mileage.

4 hours ago, sfdownhill

In pursuit of optimized tuning of the new header, I seek wise counsel from Mohawk, HighSideNZ, CandyRedRC46, MadScientist, and others who have experimented with O2 sensors for tuning via autotune, dyno, or laptop-strapped-to-bike:

[1] Would O2 sensors in all four primaries interrupt the exhaust flow enough to be detrimental?

[2] Would Jozef's Bosch 4.9 wideband sensors function correctly if their bungs were placed at a height such that the sensor tips did not extend in to the gas flow?

[3] Would the advantages of Jozef being able to tune each cylinder's fueling individually outweigh the potential penalty brought by the O2 sensors' position in the primaries?

[4] On a Bosch 4.9 wideband O2 sensor, what is the measured distance from its deepest thread point [where it seats against the bung] to the end tip of its sensor?

[5] Should I cease and desist attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist and have Jozef shove a single sniffer down the tailpipe, then tune a single map for all four cylinders combined?

Thanks for kicking in suggestions

I can't say anything helpful about the first 3, so I'll just leave it alone.

For number 4 - the PCV + AT uses the LSU 4.2 sensor (yes, 4.2), I'm not sure if this has been updated on newer units.  They only sell one replacement regardless, so I'd assume they are all 4.2.

Dimensions of the LSU 4.2 tip in mm given on picture.  The only part with holes for sampling is the conical part at the very tip.  I can think of no reason that any part further back would need to go in the exhaust stream.

Number 5 - When it comes to me, I'm still just going to use the one sensor in the final merge.  If I was a racer looking for every advantage, then I'd certainly tune by cylinder.  YMMV.

[image: O2 sensor.png]

Thanks for the solid input everyone. Between the solid recommendations here, the guys at Attack, and Wade, we’ll get an accurate result.

Separate note: it’s a good thing we had the injectors serviced - see printout below. Valve adjustment is taking place now.

[image: F8C135FB-9B9A-4CEB-B790-C67123EF8FFE.thumb.jpeg.31c002967acbe5d61135ac6e57bb9a5f.jpeg]

I’ve got a tech support ticket opened up w K&N to engage them in the search for the big mouth HA-8098. Even after putting photos of the two animals that both have K&N part number HA-8098 stamped into them, K&N is having a hard time getting their arms around the concept.

I haven't been following closely, so forgive me if this has been discussed, but pipercross filters have complete filter coverage like the elusive HA-8098  

16 minutes ago, gig

I haven't been following closely, so forgive me if this has been discussed, but pipercross filters have complete filter coverage like the elusive HA-8098  

I think candyredrc46 mentioned that pipercross was his preferred filter..

...just for info, I'm running a BMC filter, that's full width - seems to be fine.....----skip the k&n..

3 hours ago, gig

I haven't been following closely, so forgive me if this has been discussed, but pipercross filters have complete filter coverage like the elusive HA-8098  

2 hours ago, mello dude

I think candyredrc46 mentioned that pipercross was his preferred filter..

...just for info, I'm running a BMC filter, that's full width - seems to be fine.....----skip the k&n..

The 5th gen that will be used to dyno test the new header is currently equipped with a Pipercross air filter. The Pipercross was clean and still moist with oil when last checked 2378 miles ago.

There was a thorough discussion of foam vs pleated filter mediums on an earlier header thread. RVFR relayed solid input from his dyno tuner, Mike Velasco, a legendary Honda V4 tuner [Mike tuned for Freddie Spencer, Fred Merkel, Bubba Shobert, etc]. RVFR, please chime in if I've gotten the information from Mr. Velasco wrong. I do recall that his recommendation was to get rid of the foam filter. The discussion begins in the link below, starting with the May 9 2017 post. MadScientist delivers an authoritative, experience-based treatise on the relationship of filter area, pore size [filtration], and pressure across the filter:

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/85354-5th-6th-vfr-800-header-build/&amp;page=4

Checking it out the link he posted back in 2017 reveals that once again, mello dude is one of the best guys on the VFR planet to listen to; the BMC appears to have nearly [exactly?] the same oiled multi-layered cotton filter medium area as the mysterious big mouth K&N. BMC claims 'several layers' while K&N claims four. And the BMC is readily available - no manufacturer scavenger hunt required:

https://www.bmcairfilters.com/eng/standard-bike-filters/fm187-04-01/1440/art

[image: image.thumb.png.c5bdc9c5fc71c0d7aae5d026f511ef78.png]
 

Here's the big mouth K&N HA-8098, next to the standard K&N HA-8098:

[image: 1241631143_KN2.thumb.jpg.c8723d78d91ff36d8fe7246519105d9d.jpg]

13 hours ago, sfdownhill

[1] Would O2 sensors in all four primaries interrupt the exhaust flow enough to be detrimental?

[2] Would Jozef's Bosch 4.9 wideband sensors function correctly if their bungs were placed at a height such that the sensor tips did not extend in to the gas flow?

[3] Would the advantages of Jozef being able to tune each cylinder's fueling individually outweigh the potential penalty brought by the O2 sensors' position in the primaries?

[4] On a Bosch 4.9 wideband O2 sensor, what is the measured distance from its deepest thread point [where it seats against the bung] to the end tip of its sensor?

[5] Should I cease and desist attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist and have Jozef shove a single sniffer down the tailpipe, then tune a single map for all four cylinders combined?

Hey Lance,

So unless you have a system that can modify the fuel pulse on a per cylinder basis (i.e. a Rapid Bike Racing) then its pointless having per header O2 measurements.  The TBR was run & used with a PC3, one fuel pulse adjustment for all cylinders. The extra benefit for per header O2 tuning is negligable unless you have an injector that is way out of spec.

So in answer to your questoins;-

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. No

4. I can get this later as I have one in my garage in a box.

5. YES

Just run a bike with stock exhaust, then with new exhaust, it does NOT matter how the bike is configured, i.e. airfilter etc, you want to measure does this new exhaust increase the HP, anywhere with no or minimal losses everywhere else !?  Let the exhaust do the talking, first run it with NO fuelling mods & see how that goes, only stop if it is dangerously lean.

I had an issue with the fuel trims of my very modified bike & Dimsport advised to start with a zero map on the RBR unit, so I did. It ran fine & was only running a smidge warmer than before, so was not critically lean ! Possibly due to the narrow band O2 sensors being removed forcing the ECU to revert to the default rich backup map !

Again, as to the air filter.

As long as ALL dyno runs are done with the same filter in generally the same clean condition that is all we can hope for.

We are building an exhaust system and not the total bike, so:

1.  Keep ALL other parameters static apart from fueling changes.

2. If it is an oiled filter, clean and oil it and run the bike with it for say 50/80 km BEFORE the first dyno run.

3. DO NOT alter the air filter between runs unless it has become contaminated in some way.

Honestly, to get the most consistent readings, a new standard paper filter would probably be the best way to go.

Remember, we are testing exhausts and nothing else.

So, get the fueling right with the standard pipes, read the power curve, then rinse and repeat with the new pipes.

9 hours ago, MooseMoose

As for the question of whether 4 sensors will destroy the flow, I understand the concern. But @CandyRedRC46 had one in each downpipe and has posted impressive dyno runs. We're talking RC45 race bike level numbers on a 6th gen. 120hp is pretty impressive for a VFR. I don't think that's a problem, though if he's still paying attention maybe my tagging him will let HIM tell us of his reasoning. 

Hi MooseMoose,   do you have a link to CR46's dyno charts ?  I've been trying for years to get him to do a dyno run, but he always refused unless someone with a stock bike would rock up on the same day to be the standard to measure by on the same dyno, next/previous bike.  Perhaps you are confusing these with my dyno charts which have been on this site for years &/or HighSideNZ's from his 825cc big bore !?

^^what highside said

PS on the O2 sensor per header, I think you will find that your guys are living in the old world !  All modern O2 sensors are electronically heated so can operate anywhere in the exhaust system. The old ones were heated by the exhaust flow, so were best placed in the first 10"' of the header to ensure they heated up quickly & maintained an operational temperature. The new ones, can be anywhere in the header & get the same result. Resessing them from the header, so that the sensor tip is flush with the ID of the pipe, actually creates an eddy zone that should in theory make their reading more average, but they are best placed with just the triangular tip section protruding inside the ID of the pipe, being offset to one side they will not cause a full reflective pulse & should not hinder gas flow.  But if mounted on a standard bung, they can protrude quite a ways into a primary header, much less so in a secondary or later collector, thus one sensor where mine is has a very minor impact on flow, as the pipe cross section is much larger.

4 hours ago, Mohawk

Recessing them from the header, so that the sensor tip is flush with the ID of the pipe, actually creates an eddy zone that should in theory make their reading more average, but they are best placed with just the triangular tip section protruding inside the ID of the pipe, being offset to one side they will not cause a full reflective pulse & should not hinder gas flow.  

I've been working on do-it-yourself motorcycle fuel injection projects for about 10 years now and the above post pretty much describes how I mount my Wideband O2 sensors.  I always use an "extended length" O2 sensor bung.  You can see in these build-up pictures how far the O2 sensor protrudes beyond the end of the bung (when you visualize how far it will protrude into the exhaust remember to include the wall-thickness of the exhaust header itself) .  This amount of protrusion (or even a little less) allows the sensor to work properly.

[image: DSCF0278_zps8fy8xe1o.jpg]

[image: DSCF0290_zpsc4l1oedo.jpg]

[image: DSCF0325_zpspeepgw9p.jpg]

I'm very grateful for all the sage advice and constructive suggestions offered here, especially in the last day or so.

Mohawk, when you capitalized 'YES' in answer to me asking if I should cease and desist, it had me rolling around laughing - well said! Your reminder that today's O2 sensors do not require external heat from the exhaust, therefore are less sensitive to placement than past sensors was also highly valued.

HighsideNZ, good input on air filter choice, preparation, and not modifying or changing anything on the motorcycle between the baseline and tuning except the headers..

GreginDenver, you chimed in with exactly the info I was seeking at just the right time - how cool that you work in and around injection systems and motorcycles. Wait until you see our donor/fitment bike...it's in serious need of the full GiD [Greg in Denver] treatment. After the dyno dust settles, the fitment bike will get the best version of your rebuild I can muster.

Duc2V4 and I are in agreement with the fundamental objective everyone is voicing: exercise discipline in changing only the headers between the baseline run and the dyno tuning session because we are all seeking only accurate information on the changes the new header produces. Nothing else. Peripheral tweaking and tuning will only diminish the validity of our findings.

Because the dyno tune needs to be performed, it makes sense to optimize the configuration of the test bike prior to arriving at Attack Performance, then change absolutely nada, zero, nothing in this configuration except the headers between the baseline and the tune. Thorough preparation will allow the best tune and be best for the bike in the long run. If the bike is prepared for the baseline run with new spark plugs, recently calibrated fuel injectors, a fresh valve adjustment, starter valves synched, new coolant and thermostat, a new air filter, new oil/filter, , fresh fuel, and PCV, then, after the tuning session, it will be a complete package dialed in for the second half of its life.

Jozef measured the Bosch wide band sensors he uses with the Attack dyno for tuning and came up with 27mm from the base/seat of the sensor’s threads to the sensing tip. This would be the same measurement as from the top of the bung to the sensor’s tip when installed. If anyone has a different measurement for the Bosch 4.9, please let me know.

1 hour ago, sfdownhill

Jozef measured the Bosch wide band sensors he uses with the Attack dyno for tuning and came up with 27mm from the base/seat of the sensor’s threads to the sensing tip. This would be the same measurement as from the top of the bung to the sensor’s tip when installed. If anyone has a different measurement for the Bosch 4.9, please let me know.

27mm sounds like an accurate measurement of the sensor's tip-to-seat distance (1.063 inches),

The pictures I posted (above, in this thread) are of a Bosch 4.9 (5-wire, heated) O2 sensor being installed into an Innovate Motorsports Extended O2 Sensor Bung which has a 1 inch total length, and in one of those pictures you can see how far the tip of the O2 sensor protrudes beyond the bung. 

In the top picture the extended bung has already been heavily contoured to fit tightly against the exhaust's mid-pipe section, but the upper-right hand end of the bung is still very close to the original total length. 

Sorry that the best picture I have (the top pic of the 3 that I posted) is a slightly angled viewpoint of the assembly and that this picture was taken when I was already well into the process of contouring the end of the bung so that it would closely mate to the outside of the exhaust's mid-pipe, but at least you can see well enough to get a good comparison of the lengths of the bung and the sensor tip.  

6 pages already.

Honestly this needs 2 threads. An official update/build thread, and the discussion thread. Otherwise I don't know if I want to bother sifting through multiple pages to try to find the updates. 

10 minutes ago, thtanner

6 pages already.

Honestly this needs 2 threads. An official update/build thread, and the discussion thread. Otherwise I don't know if I want to bother sifting through multiple pages to try to find the updates. 

[image: Screen%20Shot%202019-01-19%20at%2012.16.]

2 hours ago, thtanner

6 pages already.

Honestly this needs 2 threads. An official update/build thread, and the discussion thread. Otherwise I don't know if I want to bother sifting through multiple pages to try to find the updates. 

Yeah probably,

For updates on the build though refer to the dates on the op, or skim thru looking for pics of exhausts....exhaust on m/c...

(not yet)...exhaust on m/c on dyno... (not yet)...😀... (not yet)

Or sfdownhill can just hyperlink all updates on the first post. 

12 hours ago, GreginDenver

27mm sounds like an accurate measurement of the sensor's tip-to-seat distance (1.063 inches),

The pictures I posted (above, in this thread) are of a Bosch 4.9 (5-wire, heated) O2 sensor being installed into an Innovate Motorsports Extended O2 Sensor Bung which has a 1 inch total length, and in one of those pictures you can see how far the tip of the O2 sensor protrudes beyond the bung. 

In the top picture the extended bung has already been heavily contoured to fit tightly against the exhaust's mid-pipe section, but the upper-right hand end of the bung is still very close to the original total length. 

Sorry that the best picture I have (the top pic of the 3 that I posted) is a slightly angled viewpoint of the assembly and that this picture was taken when I was already well into the process of contouring the end of the bung so that it would closely mate to the outside of the exhaust's mid-pipe, but at least you can see well enough to get a good comparison of the lengths of the bung and the sensor tip.  

Thanks Greg. I've ordered stainless and mild steel bungs with 25mm height [What can't you find on Amazon?], like the contoured bung you are using. I don't know welding, whether bungs have to be stainless to weld to stainless, and I forgot to ask Wade this question when I spoke to him, so I ordered bungs in both  materials to have both bases covered for the fitment test this Tuesday Jan 22. Wade didn't have any tall bungs on hand at his shop, and I try to keep things easy for him.

12 hours ago, thtanner

6 pages already.

Honestly this needs 2 threads. An official update/build thread, and the discussion thread. Otherwise I don't know if I want to bother sifting through multiple pages to try to find the updates. 

I hear you thtanner - sifting through posts for updates is tedious. People who are planning upgrades/updates around their new exhaust might find value in the thread having a linear progression. There probably won't be much until Tuesday night, after the fitment session.

Tuesday we'll be at Wade's shop [1] testing 3 different crush gaskets to see which works best with the new headers [2] swinging the new headers into place on a fitment 5th gen [praying the TBR they were modeled from were in good shape]

[3] checking the new header's collector exit location and angle on the fitment bike with a selection of OEM and aftermarket slipons [4] checking center stand installation/fitment and exploring possible 6th gen CSS location [5] making a midpipe to fit between the new headers and a TBR slipon. The TBR slipon canister is probably going to be used on dyno day [Sat Jan 26] because Wade isn't sure if he'll have a full system ready in time for testing.

You can weld either bung to the stainless header, ss to ss would be preferred with ss filler rod. Could also weld the mild steel bung to the header using ss rod or silicon bronze brazing wire. 

Re the crush washers I was just having a tidy up in the garage & one of the things I found was the sample crush washer I had pulled out of the exhaust port when I fitted the TBR. So it was a standard sized crush washer of the round section copper type I prefer. I measured it in it’s crushed state, the OD was 39.5-40mm, the ID was 30mm +/- 0.5mm.

Thanks for input Seb and Mohawk

I have 10 of the 42mm crush gaskets from UK pictured below. Uncrushed it measures 41.67od 33.61id. Its leading edge can be wedged into the exhaust sleeve on the head, but will probably be deformed by the header before bottoming out in the sleeve:

[image: 1879061350_UK42mm.thumb.JPG.fc8ba40fb54876e9e4b2a5c0c62328a9.JPG]

This is what the same gasket looks like after being chucked up in a lathe in an attempt to shave the od for a better fit.                     So score=1 sacrificial lamb gasket, 9 gaskets remaining for testing:

[image: 1296379432_UKlathed.thumb.JPG.d58c1a03b6249a8d1c9a87e7904656ed.JPG]

I have not been able to locate the perfect round section copper 42mm crush gasket described elsewhere, but have acquired 10 each of two more gaskets to be tested. The one on the left is billed as 41mm, but before crushing is 40.3od 31.7id, so id is too small. The one on the right is listed as 42mm, and before crushing measures 41.7od 36.3id and can be wheedled into the outside edge of the exhaust sleeve, so has potential [kinda skinny, though].

[image: 260229019_42mm41mmgaskets.thumb.JPG.05d8e47d7c91be87bd147988a72bc0df.JPG]

Another thing to keep in mind is that after welding the bungs will need to have a tap run thru them to clean up the thread as they shrink and distort during welding.

Also, make sure you use an anti-seize on the threads as stainless to stainless will gawl and lock up, especially once there is heat involved.

Don't get the anti-seize on the sensor end.  Apply it to the threads on the sensor and not in to the bung where it would get pushed out when screwing in the sensor.

Phil

Mohawk, 1/18/2019 at 2:08 AM

Hi MooseMoose,   do you have a link to CR46's dyno charts ?

He had some posted. Maybe it was on vfr world. I'll see if I can still find them

** Edit:  I can't find them anymore. Maybe they don't show what you wanted from him, but I do recall seeing some dyno runs.  If I find 'em later I'll post links.

Mohawk, I have this filed as CandyRedRC46's:

[image: 494431574_CandyReddynochart.thumb.jpg.5dacecffeedd675793a379a7f6f75bc1.jpg]

So...how'd the dyno run go (was going to be done on Tuesday, IIRC?)

Inquiring minds and all that... 😉

I think Saturday is Dyno day, today was fitment day.

29 minutes ago, jimmyp

I think Saturday is Dyno day, today was fitment day.

Bugger.

Wishful thinking on my part, perhaps...

Talked to SFDownhill today and I think he said the pipes lined up, so at least we know the prototype fits. It's all together.  I gave him my sync tool to use for the final tune up.

I'm excited to see what they come up with. I'm patient. Don't need an exhaust so when they're here they're here. But I'm  looking forward to seeing some data. Whets our appetite for deliveries down the road.

Yep, the new headers fit well onto the 5th gen fitment bike. Just finished unloading from yesterday's field trip, and recognize some data is due. Details to follow soon.

[image: 314422859_fitting9.1.thumb.JPG.3d5b80787726954e038deb10f752e147.JPG][image: 1782502260_fitting9.thumb.JPG.329aa105e19e1fea80bd8f2fe774c06e.JPG][image: 264064774_fitting7.thumb.JPG.9a92b1ecdacdaa7bc7b914070827c714.JPG][image: 1522248385_fitting9.2.JPG.14857e7f8145a6118b7e31c50b44b7a0.JPG][image: 405758808_fitting8.thumb.JPG.e007cd4d36de0c143a36e17ca340dacf.JPG]

sfdownhill, 1/21/2019 at 10:59 PM

Mohawk, I have this filed as CandyRedRC46's:

[image: 494431574_CandyReddynochart.thumb.jpg.5dacecffeedd675793a379a7f6f75bc1.jpg]

Well unless he left the sunny climes of Florida & moved to Keynsham in the UK (where JHS Raicing are based) then that's mine 🙂 Before I had the 300rpm limiter increase to 12500rpm which is a 9% load increase on the rods, its been fine up there on a few track days 😉

8 hours ago, sfdownhill

Yep, the new headers fit well onto the 5th gen fitment bike. Just finished unloading from yesterday's field trip, and recognize some data is due. Details to follow soon.

[image: 314422859_fitting9.1.thumb.JPG.3d5b80787726954e038deb10f752e147.JPG][image: 1782502260_fitting9.thumb.JPG.329aa105e19e1fea80bd8f2fe774c06e.JPG][image: 264064774_fitting7.thumb.JPG.9a92b1ecdacdaa7bc7b914070827c714.JPG][image: 1522248385_fitting9.2.JPG.14857e7f8145a6118b7e31c50b44b7a0.JPG][image: 405758808_fitting8.thumb.JPG.e007cd4d36de0c143a36e17ca340dacf.JPG]

Looking sweet & neat, go go go 🙂

[image: 54D1CF1A-F1C0-4847-93FE-BC30AFD1B66B.thumb.jpeg.a3db088ad43c73a7862c364e45b06f8d.jpeg][image: 5D09EBDC-EF2E-4CE0-98FB-E42AF082DCE6.thumb.jpeg.613b21cd45252cef6ed034919f977efb.jpeg][image: 54C9508D-8800-44BC-9632-ECA949A33CFF.thumb.jpeg.fbb3de2149811424d8a24f919b9160fb.jpeg][image: 5328F204-F5FE-44BC-B180-23BFA6AFE36A.thumb.jpeg.86297e4b33928c140653746a31bb2563.jpeg][image: 291663DE-638D-4E10-910E-A53B349B2723.thumb.jpeg.b34315e36404922db1b15996341e815d.jpeg][image: 1EBF9379-1314-468E-9451-4C0B1D2D84E1.thumb.jpeg.fd730e97a028899063e8ed0ffa1d29ae.jpeg]

Sure looks beefy, right up there with the 1000cc headers! [image: emoji16.png] But how does it sound?

How much does the new exhaust weigh?

Big shout out to moosemoose - thanks for loaning your carb synch suction tool gizmo so I can synch the starter valves!

Don't know how the new exhaust sounds yet - the fitment bike is a fair ways from running. I'm certainly among the curious about the sound.

Here are weights, based on bathroom scale technique, meaning I stepped on and off and reset the scale between readings until I got three identical readings, approximate to the tenth of a pound:

TBR with no springs installed [sorry, should have had the springs on to match up the weights, but a guy can only stand stepping on and off a bathroom scale so many times, and I didn't catch the missing springs until I was putting the TBR to bed]: 8.4 lbs [Is that really only 3.8 kg?]

Prototype with springs and O2 sensor bungs: 9.5 lbs 4.3 kg [again, only if my conversion math is correct]

Items that came to light with the prototype:

- the collector exit pipe is too close to the descending cylinder #1 primary. A factor here was the cylinder #1 primary should have stayed closer to the radius of the cylinder #3 primary as it swept down and forward toward the merge. This was partly because of modeling on the TBR, partly because of not having a fitment bike while building the jig. There will be more space between #1 primary and the collector exit on production headers.

- the vertical descending portions of #1 and #3 primaries at the slip joints are not parallel, which makes installation and removal a bit of a grunt. This also was attributed to modeling on the TBR. Upon inspection, sure enough, the TBR #1 and #3 primaries are not parallel where they are vertical behind the heat shield.

- how best to equip 6th gen owners with a center stand stop was not completely resolved. Possibilities are still being explored. Wade does not endorse welding on a bracket of the length that would be required to locate a stop in the OEM position [OEM stop bracket is fastened to the rear of the catalytic converter]. He is open to having midpipes sent to him to have a stop welded on, a la 5th gen [see photos]. He also can fabricate midpipes with  stops welded on.

- the 41mm crush washers [from Delkevic] closed down to 31.5mm id when the stud nuts were torqued - that's too small for our 32.5mm exhaust port.

- the skinny round cross section copper 42mm crush washers worked great [also from Delkevic but not listed on their website or ebay store]. You have to work them by hand into the id of the exhaust sleeve on the head, then the prototype primary just pushes the gasket down to the base of the the sleeve at the port and flattens it there. After crushing, the id of the gasket is 0.8mm larger than the exhaust port - there is space [0.4-0.5mm or precisely four hairwidths] between the inside perimeter of the the gasket and the exhaust port all the way around. I'll post photos of a successfully crushed gasket at the exhaust port once the prototype is removed from the fitment bike.

What are the group thoughts on header slip joint integrity? I've heard they may leak, but Wade doesn't seem concerned about that possibility. They aren't the easiest things in the world to pull apart, but that may be partly because the two slip joints aren't parallel.

Also, the fit of the midpipe into the TBR slipon canister is a little rattley. Would exhaust wrap tighten this up? Does anyone know of an exhaust sealing tape?

All the high temp exhaust sealants I've found require 24 hours to cure. We'll be assembling the headers and running them within a couple hours, so no time for slip joint sealant to cure. Anybody have a working solution or a 'why dontcha try' suggestion?

As you are only needing the seals to be tight 4 dyno run, can clamps be used on the joins

[image: 2019-01-25 15.45.15.jpg]

A few wraps of Nashua foil tape around the pipe that is too small would be an effective temporary fix. Not too hard to scrape off with a razor blade later, replace with sealant when timing is better.

IIRC, the vertical alignment was off on my 4th gen TBR also. 

Wrap aluminium foil around the loose fitting pipe several times until it is a snug fit into the slip on. It's Ugly but functional!

5 hours ago, sfdownhill

TBR with no springs installed [sorry, should have had the springs on to match up the weights, but a guy can only stand stepping on and off a bathroom scale so many times, and I didn't catch the missing springs until I was putting the TBR to bed]: 8.4 lbs [Is that really only 3.8 kg?]

Yes that is correct, my TBR weighed in at 4Kg complete, a massive weight saving over the stock sytem.  Your protype is right there on weight, well done.

Re the slip joints, these are supposed to bottom out in the expanded section & a little silicone exhaust paste will seal them I have not had any blow by on mine is 15K miles.

Keep up the good work, its nearly there 🙂

12 hours ago, SEBSPEED

IIRC, the vertical alignment was off on my 4th gen TBR also. 

3rd gen, too. Buddy had a left exit system on his 1990 and that was a bear to wrassle in to place. I guess it was always a little fussy from build to build with TBR pipes.

14 hours ago, sfdownhill

thanks for loaning your carb synch suction tool gizmo so I can synch the starter valves!

No problem. It's a little annoying getting them sync'd at first, but really not hard at all if you have a good vacuum guage and a little patience. Glad to see the tool put to good use.

pdf vs jpeg vs scanning utility [vs Predator?] issues. Any patience that can be contributed is appreciated.

FOR SALE - one Power Commander V, Dynojet part #16-005 for 1998-2009 Honda VFR800s. Like new, very little use. Produces dyno charts like this when installed on a 2001 5th gen VFR:

[image: 236359576_AttackPC5012619.thumb.jpg.8da8aad74fa9c4a48de7aef8d5ee7306.jpg]

The short story:

Success. 3.62hp increase after simply bolting on the new header with zero tuning. 7.63hp increase after tuning the new header with Power Commander 3 installed.

The long version including dyno charts:

Yesterday's dyno sessions ended up being very productive. At $775, It also cost quite a bit more than expected [See invoice below]. This will result in a $30/per header increase in cost for orders placed from here on out - meaning headers not deposited at this time will cost $790 plus shipping. We will honor original pricing of $760 plus shipping for each header on all orders for which deposits have already been received.

The day started early, meeting with Jozef [lead dynamometer technician] in Attack Performance's impressive lobby at their Huntington Beach CA headquarters. The lobby has several of Attack's MotoGP and championship winning motorcycles on display - badass hardware bristling with hardcore race tech.

After going over our plan for the day with Jozef, Duc2V4 and I set up our pits, unloaded the bike, and handed it over to the wizard. Jozef took the bike 'behind the curtain', as Attack's shop is off limits to customers. Here's where the first evidence of skimpy photo documentation surfaces - although Jozef snapped a shot of the 5th gen on the dyno with prominent Attack logos in evidence, I neglected to collect even a text of the photo. Massive thanks to VFRD member Hammerdrill for filling in with the much needed photos seen later in this post.

The 5th gen test bike started the day with 59877 miles, Power Commander V with zero map, a new K&N air filter, new Denso iridium plugs, PAIR system disabled/removed, ~1000 miles on Mobil 1 oil/filter,  a Two Brother Racing slipon muffler, and OEM Honda 1998/1999 headers installed.

The dyno chart at the top of the post is from the first set of dyno runs. After recording these, Jozef brought the bike back out to us - something was definitely wrong. To keep this account of the conversation brief, I'll just recount that Jozef said he'd never seen a bike run this wonkily with a PCV. The erratic readings were the result of electrical interference of unknown origin. Group deduction arrived at the possibility that the problem could be with the speed wire tapped into the Power Commander V, so we disconnected it and Jozef took the bike back into his cave. No dice, Jozef got the same misfiring and erratic results. Back in our sumptuous VIP pit area, troubleshooting arrived at disconnecting the PCV, so we did.

After disconnecting the PCV,  the bike ran well and these baseline runs were the result:

[image: 1270925646_Attackbaseline012619.thumb.jpg.1ff02f8ed33a4339a6743624d8ead955.jpg]

Having acquired a successful baseline and simultaneously possessing a fuel management system that consistently sent the test bike into a tizzy, it was vital to best martial our remaining time. This meant I would drive back to Vista and pick up the PCIIIUSB which had been strategically left at home, 70 miles away from Attack Performance. Can't blame the PCIIIUSB, it would have loved to have been on the first trip to Huntington Beach. Not even the PCV can be blamed...I had singlehandedly done all the forgetting. While I was gone from Attack, Duc2V4 would change out the 98/99 headers for the prototype, Hammerdrill would take photos, and Jozef would continue building engines for Attack, then take a long lunch.

Duc2V4 did a stellar job getting the 98/99 headers off and the prototype  header installed.

[All photos courtesy of VFRD member Hammerdrill - thanks dude!]

Special tools were required to disconnect the rear primaries:

[image: 1721322067_oldheaderencouragement.thumb.jpg.3c53893d92982158d6dddd5af366e2d7.jpg]

Who left these rings under my pillow?

[image: 900381266_crushgasket.thumb.jpg.9254dc3358140cf7d01e72d341da3e02.jpg]

And here's how he stuck 'em into the exhaust port sleeves:

[image: 1028643586_crushgasketinstallation.thumb.jpg.0dc633e75f8bf6f6332d6c41aee300c1.jpg]

This is one of the 42mm crush gaskets after being crushed by the prototype header. Note the space between the gasket's id and the port. [This is the photo I forgot to take on fitment day]:

[image: 1778052029_42mmaftercrushing.thumb.JPG.7c0ff9e1f718bf5aa47b20d6e9e3fea9.JPG]

Gaskets in place. Look ma, no grease! They stay in place on their own:

[image: 1130150094_crushgasketinstalled.thumb.jpg.216c7335ea7d57bcdb7a682f0912350d.jpg]

Prototype headers connected to a midpipe Wade built to fit the TBR canister.

[image: 379044921_midpipeandprimaries.thumb.jpg.74413b4f3a06da074ae1b95071bd7fb5.jpg]

Duc2V4 found a way to make a too-large T-bolt clamp fit onto the midpipe - note the spacer on the threads under the clamp's nut. Also note how frickin close the prototype came to the shock linkage. This would have been of concern if the bike wasn't on a rear stand when this photo was taken - the rear wheel was hanging at its maximum extension and still cleared the collector:

[image: 1580283240_clampandlinkage.thumb.jpg.c2dd980a7861013017d1b1eb54544449.jpg]

The incredibly hard-working pit crew:

[image: 1532320408_pitcrew.thumb.JPG.3c45682a9ba0d507132446b584d046dd.JPG]

After 'lunch', with PC3 and new prototype header installed [Connected to the same TBR canister used for the baseline] Jozef got down to business and completed an exhaustive [ouch again!] tune, resulting in the comparative graph below.

The bottom trace Run File 10 is the baseline 107.5hp / 57.01ft/lbs

The middle trace Run File 14 is the 'just slapped the headers on' with no tuning whatsoever 110.86hp / 57.82ft/lbs

The top trace Run File 77 is the result of Jozef's careful tuning 114.74hp / 59.82ft/lbs

[image: 1620439370_Attackpeakhp1012619.thumb.jpg.51891047215bb16e05606c66bfbd8b24.jpg][image: 137178045_Attackpeakhp2012619.thumb.jpg.13c1a70e5d2693850071826d55762719.jpg]

After the dust had settled, Jozef placed a midrange reference line at 8000rpm:

[image: 1269798220_Attackmidrangecomparison1012619.thumb.jpg.d9a7af5620ee8ed849ca46ea206d50d6.jpg][image: 625290698_Attackmidrangecomparison2012619.thumb.jpg.c8df4d823e9e86f49372442cf601b558.jpg]

And the ugly:

[image: 2068774578_Attackinvoice012619.thumb.jpg.452482613ad77b9a8873d5667f65397e.jpg]

Kudos for the effort men... Wow to the PCV dyno chart... yikes

A question for clarity's sake - was the PC3 connected for Run File 14 or no? 

2 hours ago, SEBSPEED

Kudos for the effort men... Wow to the PCV dyno chart... yikes

A question for clarity's sake - was the PC3 connected for Run File 14 or no? 

The PC3 was installed before the session during which runfile 14 was produced. Before that session, Jozef went in and zeroed the PC3’s map so it made no changes to stock ECU settings or actions. Part of his protocol is to get a reading on changes a modification makes by itself, with no tuning whatsoever. To be certain there are no contrary actions lurking in the PC3, he creates the zero map himself by entering zero values across the entire table (there is a command to enter all zero values - he didn’t have to enter them one cell at a time).

Thank you so much for posting the dyno graphs with the target AFRs, that helps me out for autotune.  Looks like Attack Perf is running slightly richer than what I've set my Autotune target AFRs at.  I'd be interested to see the full fuelling map, though it doesn't really apply to me (I'm running a 3 bar FPR).  I don't suppose they gave you a full map of AFR targets...

On that PCV graph, now I see what other people are talking about with surging on the PCV.  I wonder WTF is going on between 2000/01 ECUs and the PCV.  I've had no such difficulties with my 98.

Top work gents

Do you have before and after pc3 maps to compare what changes were made?

Cheers 

4 hours ago, MadScientist

Thank you so much for posting the dyno graphs with the target AFRs, that helps me out for autotune. 

I did a lot of research on this and opinions abound. But fundamentally, 13.1 is often considered optimal for power, regardless of RPM. Those charts are right there, between 12.9 and 13.2.

I'm not sure the default VFR tuning, but ideal AFR for mileage and emissions are well over 14 (a lot of modern cars default to 14.7:1) so I'm surprised those VFR  base readings are  lower than 13.1 to start with.  I find that interesting.

Anyway, I'm just setting my rapidbike to 13.2, which is the My Tuning Bike default, for my max power map and not worrying about it beyond that. Works now, power delivery is super smooth at all throttle. So I'll do the same with the new header. I assume Autotune is similar, just adjusting the map in real time depending on a wideband sensor.

Looks promising all around. 5% increase may not sound like much, but it will be noticeable. Especially the extra bit in the midrange. I'm fat and ride on the street, so a couple more foot lbs of torque between 5 and 9K is nice to have.  Mostly it'll be nice to have a quality, well made header that is better, as opposed to the same or worse like the Chinese ones of questionable qualities.

MadSci and boOZZIE - We ran out of daylight, time, and closed the Attack facility down on Saturday night, last car in the parking lot was us, packing up the pit and loading the bike, so I didn't get the files from Jozef then. He said he'd email them, and I'll be going back up there later this week, so I'll take some photos of the Attack bikes and get the fuel maps on a thumb drive if he hasn't emailed them by then. I did not ask him to save the original PC3 map, but hope he did - I'm as curious as you are about the difference in mapping. The original map was from a dyno tune back in 2006 done by the previous owner of the bike. At that time it had a California ECU, Staintune slipon, and OEM air filter which all combined to achieve 99rwhp on the dyno. In other words, the original map is probably going to be quite an apple compared to this recent orange.

MooseMoose, I agree with your observations; the AFRs are just a touch on the rich side, which is a fairly safe place to be. I suspect that the AFRs on the baseline runs stayed rich for two reasons: [1] during the baseline runs, the bike was never run in steady state throttle long enough for the ECU to go into closed loop fueling, which is where it would start paying attention to the O2 sensors and leaning the mixture to optimize efficiency, and [2] the O2 sensor leads from the ECU are terminated with Dynojet O2 Optimizers, which tell the ECU everything is hunky dory with the AFR, so even if it tried to go into closed loop fueling, it wouldn't perceive an opportunity to lean the mixture. And you are right about the end result being better rideability - most of us spend 90% of our fun riding time in the midrange rpms, and that is where throttle response is all different with the TBR. I was a skeptic about headers until I rode RVFR's 5th gen. When we traded bikes for 20 or so miles of twisties, his 5th gen was set up exactly as mine was except for the headers: both bikes had PC3, stock engine, and Staintune high mount slipons. He had installed a TBR header and the package had been tuned by an extremely good dyno tech. My mind was forever warped.

sfdownhill MadSci and boOZZIE - I was a skeptic about headers until I rode RVFR's 5th gen. When we traded bikes for 20 or so miles of twisties, his 5th gen was set up exactly as mine was except for the headers: both bikes had PC3, stock engine, and Staintune high mount slipons. He had installed a TBR header and the package had been tuned by an extremely good dyno tech. My mind was forever warped.

"Jozef took the bike 'behind the curtain', as Attack's shop is off limits to customers" . 

 Booooo, I could understand recording equipment, but gee whiz, paying that sort of $$$ and not letting you'll watch🖓

Were you able to hear her scream at least

3 hours ago, boOZZIE

"Jozef took the bike 'behind the curtain', as Attack's shop is off limits to customers" . 

 Booooo, I could understand recording equipment, but gee whiz, paying that sort of $$$ and not letting you'll watch🖓

Were you able to hear her scream at least

Yeah! A bit disappointing, but we could hear it howling on the other side of the concrete wall we were pitted against. We could hear him really putting it through its paces.

4 hours ago, ScottieDucati

I’m hoping this is where we are heading, meaning these headers + this tune will amount to a proven recipe... and I’ll take a heathy midrange over peak #s any day of the week. 

You are spot on, Scottie: we are cooking up a recipe with results that can be duplicated by other VFR owners.

5 hours ago, sfdownhill

 Dynojet O2 Optimizers, which tell the ECU everything is hunky dory with the AFR, so even if it tried to go into closed loop fueling, it wouldn't perceive an opportunity to lean the mixture.

Actually I understood this as everything is NOT hunky dory, so it makes the mixture rich because that's the safest default mode to be in. The resistors in there only tell the ECU that the heater coil on the sensor is active and up to temp (the resistance changes as the temperature rises so that resistor emulates the hot-coil resistance Honda expects to see)  so it won't throw a code for lack of sensors or bad sensors, but the data comes on the other wires, not the heater wire. If it isn't getting data it goes into a default rich fueling as going lean without data is dangerous, risking high cylinder head temps and possible detonation, thus the default rich mode. Anyway, with o2 eliminators in you will NEVER go into close loop fueling, no matter how you  run the bike, steady or up and down the throttle. It'll stay in the default rich fuel map forever.

That works for a PC though, because it provides a steady baseline to correct from. Don't know why my brain didn't realize it was a PC on zero map, not the proper Honda ECU mapping you started with. They are NOT the same, by the way.

4 hours ago, ScottieDucati

I’m hoping this is where we are heading, meaning these headers + this tune will amount to a proven recipe... and I’ll take a heathy midrange over peak #s any day of the week.
 

It'll be a good starting point, but don't count on it to be the best recipe for every bike. They're all snowflakes, especially at this age. Valves, injectors, throttle body will all have wear and work differently from bike to bike. Vacuum leaks (I had that one recently). Hell, stuff I am not thinking of could matter, but it all adds up. This exercise proves that, with a good tune, you get a few extra ponies over the default map, and that with the headers you get a little more grunt across the range. But to get the last pound of torque you'll still need to get your bike done, or get something with auto adaptivity.

One thing extra good reading those charts, though, is that you don't have to trade peak for midrange. The TBR headers were only lower at the lowest end of the range in older dyno charts I'd seen, and this one shows them with a pretty steady 5% more hp everywhere above 5K, and a couple of lb/ft across the board. I don't know why they didn't start measuring until almost 5000 rpm, though. That makes sense for a track bike, but it certainly doesn't show the whole picture. Especially for a "new" design of header.  But that's totally moot. These charts are good and it'll shows these do a good job all around.

So what Moosemoose said about O2 eliminators is correct, with them in ECU reverts to stored rich map (similar to what the 98/99 uses all the time !).

PC3 ZERO map means that NO correction to base ECU injector signal, so the same as running without the PC3 fitted.

Regarding a fuel map & why people never generally see the same result with a downloaded map, you need to read this http://www.robsdyno.com/injectors_tuning_massachusetts.html

Makes a lot of sense !

Remember YMMV.

Have fun.

Mohawk
 
Regarding a fuel map & why people never generally see the same result with a downloaded map, you need to read this http://www.robsdyno.com/injectors_tuning_massachusetts.html
 
Makes a lot of sense !

sfdownhill, 1/28/2019 at 7:22 PM

The dyno chart at the top of the post is from the first set of dyno runs. After recording these, Jozef brought the bike back out to us - something was definitely wrong. To keep this account of the conversation brief, I'll just recount that Jozef said he'd never seen a bike run this wonkily with a PCV. The erratic readings were the result of electrical interference of unknown origin. Group deduction arrived at the possibility that the problem could be with the speed wire tapped into the Power Commander V, so we disconnected it and Jozef took the bike back into his cave. No dice, Jozef got the same misfiring and erratic results. Back in our sumptuous VIP pit area, troubleshooting arrived at disconnecting the PCV, so we did.

I know there is sufficient interference in the electrical system on my Y2K bike to make cheap LED dashboards lights flash/flicker randomly and independantly. The flashing pattern changes with RPM.

The standard dash bulbs to not flicker.

MooseMoose and Mohawk - thanks for explaining further how the 2000-2001 5th gen ECU reads the O2 sensors. I did not have a clear understanding of it, or how the O2 Optimizers functioned. Always learning. It makes sense that the baseline runs were rich even with no fuel

management system installed: the O2 Optimizers were still installed because the 98/99 headers have no bungs. Thus the ECU defaulted to its rich map.

Zarquon, the interference issues when using a PCV on a 5th gen do seem to be limited to the 5.2 gens (2000-2001). MadScientist has a PCV rocking his 98.

Here’s the bike ready for action on the dyno. We were all surprised the coolant temp stayed between 170-180F throughout all the sessions. Even Jozef was expecting to see high temps with the side mounted radiators during power runs.

[image: E78B4D38-AC97-45D3-AB84-88CD5B42E962.thumb.jpeg.567695e6eec37558823474b99935c76e.jpeg]

I think you're cheating. that wheel isn't the stock black 2001 wheel. I bet the extra couple of ounces  you saved with the 3rd gen wheel translate to at LEAST 5 of  horsepowers you found! Mojo = Horsepower. If you'd added a few stickers you might have seen 120.

Seriously, It's good to know a normal fan on an average day is plenty to keep these safe on a dyno.  I am convinced there aren't issues with the radiators on the sides with no fairing. Or when moving in clear air, of course. The problem comes with fairings and no ram air coming in from the front as they seem to be optimized for moving air. Even being behind a car that disturbs the airflow will raise my cruising temperatures, it's nuts! I believe Honda engineers tested the whole deal in a wind tunnel and it worked wonderfully, but never  tried making the breeze turbulent.

I do wish you'd have been able to see the run. Just because it's deafeningly cool. But even with all the trouble and extra driving you got things done.

5 hours ago, Mohawk

Regarding a fuel map & why people never generally see the same result with a downloaded map, you need to read this http://www.robsdyno.com/injectors_tuning_massachusetts.html

Totally, this. Stuff just isn't a simple, static, perfect system. Heck, if it was, you'd never need adjustable starter valves to get per-cylinder flows sync'd at idle as all injectors would have identical flows at all cycle times. But duty cycling can vary. It can vary at different cycle times, too, so wide open might vary differently than 1/4 throttle, which is part of why the highest end race bikes do one per cylinder sensors, even when they're so meticulously maintained. But on the street no two of these will remain the same over the years. Even the spray pattern will eventually vary over time, regardless of how clean the injector is or how matched the flow is when you start out.

That said, a downloaded map on a PCIII improved my bike a lot. But there's a substantial difference with the RapidBike, which makes things ridiculously smooth no matter what idiot thing I'm doing with the throttle. It's even MORE better than the PCIII, which was better than stock with my crappy pipes and drippy injector.

That said, I get it if someone wants to DL a map and just go. They just dropped $800 on pipes and gaskets and whatever, and if the bike runs good it is good enough for the street.  Plus, I already invested the extra 3 bills on the my tuning bike, so I might be too strong an advocate to justify the expense.

5 hours ago, Mohawk

Remember YMMV.

Hah. Literally.

That's still an amazing price for some dyno runs and a tune. Geez. IIRC, the shop local to me charges $400 to tune including a power commander.

When I dynoed my 98' a couple years back, it was making 106.5whp with just a k&n big filter, slip on, and ngk iridium ix plugs. I think it had around 3k miles then, so the dyno test bike is running like new 👍

10 hours ago, Mohawk

Regarding a fuel map & why people never generally see the same result with a downloaded map, you need to read this http://www.robsdyno.com/injectors_tuning_massachusetts.html

Now that is enlightening reading. Thanks for sharing the knowledge-wealth, Mohawk. The Rob's Dyno article mentions RC Engineering's fuel injector selection table, which got me looking further into RC. Now I'm extra happy we used them for our injector service. Once again thanks are due to Duc2V4, this time for bringing RC Engineering Fuel Injection to our project.

Yeah that was an interesting read especially given the fact that we recently broke an apex seal on our rotary race car due to failure of a nearly 30 year old injector that was serviced, and given a clean bill of health. Not going there again. Fresh injectors with every build now.

Of course piston engines like the VFR are more tolerant of lean detonation, but it still gives one pause.

Also glad to see his reference to Marren Fuel Injection. I sent all 8 of my BMW 540i’s injectors to them when I did my timing chain and guides service. I was extremely happy with the results, and the car purrs like a kitten. So smooth... it’s hard to imagine for a 18 year old car with almost 200,000 miles.

Happy injectors are certainly a part of that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We finished up a second phase of R&D Thursday - dyno testing of the header - prototype #2 - in the photos below at Attack Performance. All this means is that one well researched attempt to improve on header #1 only proved #1 to be better. Production continues w header #1 the original TBR replica as scheduled.

I am driving out to Wade’s shop Tuesday to go over proper alignment of the collector exit, taking along 98/99 headers, TBR headers, a center stand, and maybe the fitment bike.

Here is header #2:

[image: 055BD752-6FF1-4960-A6B1-9720B92079E4.thumb.jpeg.9d5c259282925912a631e9bab7ef2d26.jpeg][image: AE1DBC45-A8EB-4979-9CD8-50EE0DBE0BED.thumb.jpeg.72fc957cf5a566ce37abc1b0ba21e6de.jpeg][image: FF08B3FB-CA53-4100-B24E-1610EE1AEBB8.thumb.jpeg.591897120da923fd351bcd7239b0199e.jpeg]

Based on (1) exhaust theory of keeping gas velocity high through the port by maintaining a slightly smaller diameter in the first few inches of the primaries, (2) Wade’s success with this concept on his dwarf car and Razr headers (3) Black Widow and Lextek’s use of this concept,

we had Wade build a second prototype with smaller 35mm od for the first 3.5 inches starting at the exhaust port.

The results are clear - header #1 we tested on Saturday Jan 26 is definitely better. This chart shows header #2 down a couple hp and ft/lbs across the entire range, especially in midrange[image: 264F88FC-F6E3-4B8F-95D6-466DA36A2A6C.thumb.jpeg.7219097ff09fdb865d8c7f59d6c9d362.jpeg][image: A3001160-E6E2-4363-9716-7DAC20C2FCFD.thumb.jpeg.7182a2e5ba47e08ba7d20759d1db9c6e.jpeg]

Note: Dynojet dynos/software correct temperature, humidity, and altitude to a standard density altitude. This means the software corrects to a standard the same way aviation performance calculations are made, ie “Can this aircraft generate enough power and lift to take off from this runway at this weight, altitude, temperature, and humidity?”

Dynojet’s correction calcs are not perfect, and neither is my spelling, but they are better than nothing. Here is an uncorrected  comparison of last Saturday’s run of header #1 against Thursday’s run of header #2:

[image: 64EE74CE-6D6D-4A9B-A233-A1A1D4EB6D29.thumb.jpeg.34971c9f171a847a96d99c6714f4ede7.jpeg]

[image: 8800AAED-4B1F-4193-9C8B-D37000977039.jpeg]

Great job guys, I didn't realize you all were going to do additional R&D.  Even though it didn't net any real gains, it is good to know that there isn't much left on the table with the original design.  I've done a lot of HVAC pressure/flow analyses and have run into some unexpected situations in real world vs simulation vs fluid dynamics modelling.  Matter of fact, you wouldn't believe how some simple things cause instability and pressure/flow oscillation.  There is a lot that goes into managing interactions between turbulent and laminar flow regions.

Just out of curiosity, are the welds/joints in the taper regions smooth inside?  A discontinuous change in diameter (step up or down) will lead to turbulence that disrupts the speed of the central laminar flow region.  Of course exhaust gasses flow in pulses, which contrasts with the relatively steady pressure of HVAC air handling fans, so there may be factors I'm not aware of.

Just wondering, doesn't matter either way,   are you doing a dyno run with the  finished mandrel bent headers on the 5g / 6g with o2 sensors and RB or PC,

Or just leaving it at that?

Hmmm, I wonder if anything else can be done to get some more power? Maybe adding h pipes between the primaries, or an h pipe after the 4-2 merge, or maybe a lextek design with tbr diameters? The latter would be a challenge without having one though.

MadScientist, your expertise goes right to the crux...at the welds inside the primaries of header #2 there are bits of weld material just barely protruding into the gas path around the internal circumference. I tried to reach in with the Dremel extension and hone down the intrusive weld material, but those bits are tough! They laughed at the high speed grinding tip. Yes, something in header #2 disrupted the combination of factors that make the TBR design so effective.

boOZZIE, I'm not sure when/if we'll be able to get a mandrel bent production header onto the dyno - we'd certainly like to do so soon. Wade ordered materials and sent his design specs to his bender vendor, so we'll see how quickly completed production headers get shipped out. I'm going to ask him for a timeline when I see him Tuesday. I hope it's not long before we all get to see a dyno baseline and tuning of a production header. This may be something a customer from the list of persons who have placed deposits gets to first, soon after they receive their headers.

At this time it appears the next known dyno baseline/tune on this project will be prototype #1 on VFRD member Hammerdrill's 6th gen, as he is purchasing those headers. Hammerdrill is having an exhaust shop open up the cans of his OEM 6th gen mufflers, gut them, install 1.5" perforated exhaust tubes and pack them. He's keeping the OEM muffler carcasses for their aesthestics. When the mufflers are done, he's going to get his 6th gen to Attack as soon as possible.

Note: Prototype #2 is available for purchase at this time.

Airisom, Mohawk's curiosity about a crossover header that matches the design of the 6th gen OEM headers but employs TBR tubing sizes and merges does get one pondering...

Sadly, we are not equipped with time or resources [read: dinero] to pursue further prototypes and testing.

Hey doesn’t matter, you have done a great job to date. Stick with numerono & let the tuning wars commence. Maybe after the first production run, variables may be possible. Kudos to Lance & Wade for making this happen. I’m not sure how many VFR800’s of all types have been sold,  but in the UK alone there are over 5000 still registered for the road of 5th gen variety & as many 6th gen. On my most recent commute, I used to see 4 or 5 distinct 5th gens during the past year, and a few 6th gens. World wide there must be a goodly number of these in the wild, all with mild steel headers that for 5th gens are at least 18 years old & between 5-17 years old for 6th gens. So there is a huge potential market, just need a means to get them known outside VFRD to improve sales. If everyone does their bit & promotes them outside VFRD on their local or national Honda or VFR forums sales should be good, we need a continuous sales stream to keep them in production for a while ! So people do your bit once production units are ready.

Yeah, Lance, good job keeping this project going. Honestly, there's no reason to spend more on testing, even if you had the cheddar. You know #1 works to buy performance -- pretty much across the entire usable range, not just top end -- and I'm confident the mandrel bent runs will be as good or better. And the header should outlast my bike.

It'll still be fun to see if folks get some increases once they get their new headers installed, of course.

It's my sincere hope that our guaranteeing enough to cover tooling and development has given Wade a big enough boost  to make post-group-order sets possible. They've done what seemed impossible, so when the final tooling is in place and we've all gotten our pipes, I definitely hope Wade feels rewarded. And, of course, willing to keep making for others who learn of these and don't want to go for the bargain  aftermarkets. There are a few of us, but it's definitely a lot more of a niche market than it was in 1999.

I can hardly wait for the 8th gen version data to drop, very exciting!

I'm with you SebSpeed.

Can't wait for an 8th Gen version.

It really is only the front headers that need to change.

Mine are 21 yrs old and look it....

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Update - there’s not a lot to update. Wednesday I dropped off Prototype #1 at the metal finsher’s to be passivated (acid dipped). They’ll do this first set of headers for $110, and batches of 5 headers for $95 each. I’ll post photos of the treated headers later this week.

Production headers are underway, but Wade was sick last week and bowed out of our Tuesday meeting. He’s feeling better (racing motocross sidecars in CA this weekend!) and I’m heading to his shop tomorrow. Objectives for this meeting are:

(1) refine our approach to collector exit matching OEM angle/position - relates to having had only TBR and OEM 6th gen headers on hand when making the jig for the prototype. The cat on the 6th gen headers didn’t allow an accurate measurement of the OEM exit angle/position, so I’m taking 98/99 headers to Wade to confirm production units match OEM angle/position (98/99 tubing and merges allow measurement & duplication).

(2) examine clearance required between the collector exit pipe and the bottom curve of cylinder #1 primary as relates to the header fitting over the diameter of the right side center stand leg during installation. Clearance at this point on Prototype #2 is enough to just squeeze over the right center stand leg, so the center  stand doesn’t have to be removed to install or remove the headers. Clearance at this point on Prototype #1 isn’t enough to allow the header to pass around the center stand during installation - we had to remove the center stand, thread it through the headers, then mount the center stand with the headers dangling down at the base of the stand like pants around one’s ankles, then mount the headers.

file

Thanks for the update. Appreciate the attention to detail you guys are performing. I'm not in a big hurry, and really need center stand compatibility for my '99 commuter/touring bike.

 Great job so far!

When the times comes, I wonder if the 8th Gen headers can be made so removing and reinstalling the center stand isn't an issue where the header bolts won't need to be loosened?

Lance, you and DucV4 are SMASHING it!

Thanks for the effort you’re putting into this. 

Stray

First of all, the good stuff: We are 4 weeks from shipping finished product. We thought finished units would be trickling out 3-5 at a time, but Wade's process is pure undiluted assembly line philosophy: he does the first phase prep and assembly for all the headers, then the second phase prep and assembly to all the units, etc until they are all done on about the same day.

***Please take note: If you have not sent a deposit, but want in on the first production run of 5th gen/6th gen headers, send a $200 deposit with your vfrd or vfrw username in the note section to the vfrheaders@gmail.com paypal account and PM us [in that order].

Do it post haste [real fast, right away]. Wade will be happy to make more than 15 headers in this first production run, but he has purchased materials and is having tubes bent for deposited orders only. I've gotten him to accept additional orders until 4pm pacific this Monday February 18 [Edited].

The second production run is going to be 8th gen headers.

It will be 4 months until another run of 5th gen/6th gen headers is ready to ship.

Second, the so-so stuff: I had a misconception that Wade would be shipping the headers from his location, but have learned that his price is FOB. We will have to pick up all the headers in the first production run, bring them home, box and ship. Crap. It was sounding so nice to just email him paid shipping tags and know the pipes were on their way to their eager new homes. Duc2V4 has volunteered to take on management of the shipping exercise - praises be! If I was going to have a first-born child, I'd definitely name him [or her] Duc2V4.

Stray, 2/13/2019 at 2:35 PM

Lance, you and DucV4 are SMASHING it!

Thanks for the effort you’re putting into this. 

Stray

Thanks Stray

flya750, 2/12/2019 at 4:11 PM

When the times comes, I wonder if the 8th Gen headers can be made so removing and reinstalling the center stand isn't an issue where the header bolts won't need to be loosened?

flya750 - check out the post after this one to see whassup with closed-captioning for center stands.

I met with Wade Tuesday and yesterday. The second trip [yesterday] was entirely my fault - I hadn't gotten the picture on what his game plan was to reset  the collector exit angle/position, and I didn't bring the prototypes with me Tuesday. Recall that the miscue on the prototype was that the jig was built from the TBR headers stem to stern - no adjustment was made to obtain OEM exit position/angle. Here's Wade's simple four-step plan to reset the collector exit position/angle to OEM:

Step 1 - cut the offending collector exits off of both prototypes

Step 2 - install OEM 5th gen muffler and trimmed prototype 1 sans collector exit on 5th gen fitment bike

Step 3 - fabricate a collector exit pipe that joins the prototype header to the OEM muffler with smoooooth flowing bends

[Rinse and repeat with Staintune slipon and prototype 2 - total of four fitment exercises]

Step 4 - cut apart the collector exit portion of the header jig and rebuild it to fit the prototypes with their shiny new, fully armed and operational OEM-like collector exits.

All production headers will have collector exits that are mandrel bent from a single piece of tubing. The segmented collector exit pipe seen in the photos below was welded in sections only for the prototypes.

Sebspeed, thanks for suggesting Nashua aluminum tape as material for making a custom donut gasket to fit between OEM-style slipons and larger-than-OEM exit pipes. The aluminum tape worked great, but you have to be sure to get the tape made of actual aluminum sheet with adhesive backing because Nashua makes a bunch of different tapes, many of which are called 'foil' but are not aluminum, just clear flexible plastic-ish sheet with a metallic sheen. Stay away from any tapes advertising flexibility. Ask me how I know this [Thank you Home Depot for making returns so easy]. I think the correct tape is called 'Extreme Weather' but I can't be sure because the roll I bought was the last one of its kind on the shelf, had no wrapper, no barcode, and I couldn't find a price or skew on the shelf that matched its 1.88" width and aluminum sheet construction:

[image: 856447674_Aluminumtape.thumb.jpg.5408fc2a1c7d89c3f8f43f584c454cf3.jpg]

It's easy to relate the photos below to the process described above. Note - the OEM muffler's midpipe at 2 3/8" od is the fattest of the fat midpipes [as far as any of us can recall] so it does get pretty dang close to the #1 cylinder primary, but there is a whisker of space there. The Staintune's midpipe uses more standard 2" od tubing and clears the primary with room to spare. For fitment, Wade volunteered my Staintune over the other two aftermarket slipons we had on hand because its canister and midpipe are built in one solid piece and its mounting points are fixed threaded brackets [Not bands looped around the canister] so it provides more precise alignment. I had been stubbornly waiting until some time way in the future to expand the front end of my Staintune's midpipe to fit the new headers, cuz there's no going back [Just ask RVFR]. I know members Tirso, wholepailofwater, and one other I can't locate in my memory were worried about permanently modifying their 5th gen Staintunes...it doesn't hurt a bit, and I'm glad I did it!

It is possible to slip a stack of as many as two sheets of paper between the OEM midpipe and the cylinder #1 rear primary:

[image: 545006582_RefitOEM1.thumb.jpg.ec7dbdb1ebb65ae1270a9c009b2040f2.jpg][image: 803151479_RefitOEM2.thumb.jpg.a2754b4afd88cc44234a8ea86c1e4d42.jpg][image: 671505485_RefitStaintune4.thumb.jpg.5b50a8d7ad8ef1f2644c00f96f7ffe73.jpg][image: 987892918_RefitStaintune2.thumb.jpg.378b7db9f9c0db7b86c1389fe9bacab5.jpg][image: 1846243470_RefitStaintune3.thumb.jpg.92725e312a94cdf12ae9948512aeea8f.jpg]

The Staintune's spacious fit:

[image: 2012274950_RefitStaintune5.thumb.jpg.ed54a2a0cc295ce06b47c9c567098db8.jpg]

Hi sfdownhill

As the second production run is going to be for the 8th Gen headers, when do you want the deposit?

I can send as soon as you say go!

Do you want it processed the same way as the 5th/6th Gen?

"send a $200 deposit with your vfrd or vfrw username in the note section to the vfrheaders@gmail.com paypal account and PM us [in that order]."

Cheers

Phil

Center stand findings:

Here is CornerCarver's original TBR header with strategically placed measuring tape to show the size of the gap between collector exit and cylinder #1 primary:

[image: 1351688841_TBRcenterstandclearance.thumb.jpg.33afb4d810eca03c2d495075c4de2fb2.jpg]

Here is the right leg of a 5th gen center stand:

[image: 1619537467_centerstanddiameter.thumb.jpg.bbc148d5430810762cf7658275c50a12.jpg]

TBR headers and replicas of them have a space between their collector exit pipe and the #1 primary that is too small for the headers to be installed over the VFR's center stand while the center stand is still installed. Once the headers are installed, the center stand fits and functions normally. Deconstructing the #1 primary and rebuilding the jig carries the risk of decreasing the header's performance because the primaries' shape and length are a critical components of a header's function. Making these changes would also incur a considerable expense. The production replicas will have the same spacing and interaction between their tubing and center stand that the original TBR has.

Here is how we've successfully installed these headers [And sometimes OEM 98/99 headers] with center stands:

[1] Put the bike [With headers removed] on a sturdy rear stand.

[2] Remove the center stand. Keep the stand's left and right side spacers, washers, and bolts in their correct stacking order and located on their respective sides of the bike.

[3] Place the right leg of the center stand through the loop made by the headers' rear primaries and collector exit pipe. 

[4] Leave the headers hanging around the stand and move the loosely connected headers and stand into position under the bike.

[5] Bolt the stand into place.

[6] Install the headers.

[7] Connect the center stand's springs.

A method we discourage requires bending the header collector exit pipe's trailing edge inward enough to allow the center stand's right leg to pass between the exit pipe and the #1 primary. After placing the bent section of the exit pipe over the still-installed stand, install the headers, then straighten the exit pipe's trailing edge. This method risks permanently deforming the collector exit pipe.

On to passivating, which as discussed earlier in this thread, is dipping in acid to remove ferrous welding contaminants. The process also etches, which removes heat damage to the surface layer. Here is prototype 1 after passivating:

[image: 1337444361_prototype1afterpassivation.thumb.jpg.6a78c2ecd90dd6573f684829db2b9eff.jpg]

12 minutes ago, HighSideNZ

Hi sfdownhill

As the second production run is going to be for the 8th Gen headers, when do you want the deposit?

I can send as soon as you say go!

Do you want it processed the same way as the 5th/6th Gen?

"send a $200 deposit with your vfrd or vfrw username in the note section to the vfrheaders@gmail.com paypal account and PM us [in that order]."

Cheers

Phil

Hi Phil - yes we are now accepting deposits on 8th gen headers. Welcome aboard! The estimated shipping date for 8th gen headers is 10 weeks from now [That's 4 weeks for completing 5/6th gen production, 2 weeks for prototyping 8th gens, and 4 weeks for the 8th gen production run.

Yes, the procedure for placing a deposit on 8th gen headers is the same. Please include "8th gen" along with your username in the notes section of the Paypal transfer.

7 hours ago, sfdownhill

On to passivating, which as discussed earlier in this thread, is dipping in acid to remove ferrous welding contaminants. The process also etches, which removes heat damage to the surface layer. Here is prototype 1 after passivating:

[image: 1337444361_prototype1afterpassivation.thumb.jpg.6a78c2ecd90dd6573f684829db2b9eff.jpg]

That's looking pretty darn good right there!

1 hour ago, SEBSPEED

That's looking pretty darn good right there!

Agreed, very tasty.......

Announcements:

[These are restatements from earlier posts regarding cost and scheduling]

[1] As stated on the Jan 28 post to this thread, headers with deposits received after Jan 28 cost $790 plus shipping [plus 7.75% sales tax for California residents].

[2] The deadline for receiving deposits to add orders to the first production run of 5th/6th gen headers is 4pm Pacific Time Monday February 18. This date/time was moved closer because it is Wade's last opportunity to call his tubing bender vendor and have more sets of tubing bent. The next production run of 5th/6th gen headers will probably be ready to ship 4 months from now. Please send your deposit via paypal to the paypal account of vfrheaders@gmail.com. In the paypal note section enter your VFRD or VFRW username and state '5th/6th gen'. Send your deposit as friends and family to avoid paypal charges, then send me a PM to let us know you've sent a deposit. I will respond with a confirmation that the deposit has been received.

[3] We are now accepting deposits on headers for 8th gen VFR800s. Shipping of finished 8th gen headers is estimated to be 10 weeks from now. This timeframe represents 4 weeks to complete the production run of 5/6th gen headers, 2 weeks for prototyping 8th gen headers, and 4 weeks for production of 8th gen headers. Please send your deposit via paypal to the paypal account of vfrheaders@gmail.com. In the paypal note section enter your VFRD or VFRW username and state '8th gen'. Send your deposit as friends and family to avoid paypal charges, then send me a PM to let us know you've sent a deposit. I will respond with a confirmation that the deposit has been received.

Just to clarify, is the $95 passivation an extra cost above the initial price of the header?

Also, is Wade willing to add a 3rd O2 sensor bung after the final collector?  If so, cost?  We can discuss by PM if you want, but I figured others may want to know.  Would be nice to have all welding done before passivation.  I'm not sure that the 3rd O2 sensor bung is even necessary, so this is just academic at the moment.

This has been a great thread to follow. Lance, your ambition, organization and problem-solving are impressive. We have to get the band back together and do a Sierra trip this year--just so I can see the finished product!
 

1 hour ago, MadScientist

Just to clarify, is the $95 passivation an extra cost above the initial price of the header?

Also, is Wade willing to add a 3rd O2 sensor bung after the final collector?  If so, cost?  We can discuss by PM if you want, but I figured others may want to know.  Would be nice to have all welding done before passivation.  I'm not sure that the 3rd O2 sensor bung is even necessary, so this is just academic at the moment.

Hey MadSci - yes the cost of passivation is extra above and beyond the cost of the header. We are having the prototypes passivated on behalf of their future owners - VFRD member Hammerdrill and some lucky individual who would like to own prototype 2 at a discount.

We did discuss bung placement with Wade, and arrived at offering purchasers their choice of one of three options included in the price of the header:

(1) no O2 sensor bungs at all (good for Power Commander owners that are not using autotune)

(2) two O2 sensor bungs in OEM positions

(3) one O2 sensor bung in the collector for users of autotune who run a single sensor.

MadSci, my sense of Wade’s approach to things is that he’d do a third sensor bung for an additional cost. I will pin down what that cost would be and report back.

Request - I would appreciate feedback from those 5/6 gen owners who use a single sensor in the collector: where and at what angle is it located?

The photos below feature the standard 1/2” tall M18 bung that will be installed unless the ‘no bungs’ option is selected. The OEM bung locations and sensor size are also shown. DO NOT neglect to liberally coat sensor AND bung threads with anti-seize every time you install a sensor or a plug! At the end of the dyno day, I hand-threaded mild steel plugs into the bungs of prototype1, and 5 days later they had galled so solidly that I had to soak them in penetrating oil overnight and use an impact wrench to get them out.

[image: 2F4547E0-0D53-4D81-9CE6-2D7F114EFC8E.thumb.jpeg.b796de99f9d54ff4d81bae9c32d43e48.jpeg]

Close enough to M18 for government work:

[image: 9BC73DBF-C2C4-4EE2-AD8F-EEF372BF190D.thumb.jpeg.ba0de5b833cdaa09042a81adc2d8115a.jpeg]

Positions everyone! (As in ‘here are the OEM bung positions’)

[image: F1BF4463-2D57-4267-88D2-12F4C3101BA5.thumb.jpeg.869d80f40f1fdd9263fcf372f0b9d0fc.jpeg]

Get yer frickin bird away from my pipes! Can’t you see that we are working on a header project here? No, I really, truly don’t care if he likes carbon fiber.

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1 hour ago, St. Stephen

This has been a great thread to follow. Lance, your ambition, organization and problem-solving are impressive. We have to get the band back together and do a Sierra trip this year--just so I can see the finished product!
 

So true sir - getting back to Brian’s ‘Greatest Hits’ road selection with the gang must happen again.

Am I correct to assume that you will be contacting the deposit list to get bung, and passivation options? 

*he said bung heheh*

Good question, MBrane. Yes, over the next few days, I will PM everyone who has placed a deposit to ask those questions and request a destination shipping address so we can start preparing to ship finished headers.

(Like you, I can’t help but snicker while trying to remain serious about anything bung-related)

7 hours ago, sfdownhill

MadSci, my sense of Wade’s approach to things is that he’d do a third sensor bung for an additional cost. I will pin down what that cost would be and report back.

I'd love to verify this.

I'm planning 3 sensors. Stock, with the third for my wideband o2. That's what I'm running now.

I can have my buddy do it, but I'll be as happy throw a few dollars at wade as well as at my local friend if it is an option. If it's too much a PITA for us rapidbike guys, definitely don't press it. I'll be happy just to have the good pipes with stock bungs and not be a pain in Wade's butt.

Lance, given the deadline for deposits on the first run is the 18th, can you please keep an eye out for the cheque I sent you. I also sent through tracking details via PM. 

Once the cheque is received, we'll need to discuss shipment options, as we are moving out of our place at the end of March, so if shipping is a 6-week proposition, I may have to provide an alternate address for shipment.

On the passivation side of things, I might have to wear the PayPal ripoff (on exchange rate) to have that done.

1 hour ago, EX-XX

Lance, given the deadline for deposits on the first run is the 18th, can you please keep an eye out for the cheque I sent you. I also sent through tracking details via PM. 

Once the cheque is received, we'll need to discuss shipment options, as we are moving out of our place at the end of March, so if shipping is a 6-week proposition, I may have to provide an alternate address for shipment.

On the passivation side of things, I might have to wear the PayPal ripoff (on exchange rate) to have that done.

Michael - I don't understand why you'd post this on the thread, as we have been corresponding successfully via PM. Your post here covers the same topic as the PM you sent yesterday. I responded yesterday that I'd been home since 9am, the mail hadn't arrived yet, and I have not received a notice from a carrier that a delivery attempt had been made. Later in the day yesterday I PM'd you with an update that the US Postal mail had been delivered and did not include an envelope or parcel from you. PM is the appropriate medium for our transaction.

23 hours ago, sfdownhill

Request - I would appreciate feedback from those 5/6 gen owners who use a single sensor in the collector: where and at what angle is it located?

Don't put it where mine is!  It barely fits in that location.  (This is an Erion, btw.)

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Ciao,

JZH

Thanks JZH - not putting it there gives us a lot of leeway. That Erion is a good-looking assembly - is that your 2000?

This is where I put my third bung when I made up my pipe.

Sorry I don't have a shot with it on the bike but as you can see I positioned it to clear all of the running gear on the 6th Gen.

[image: 20150523_123503.jpg]

Thanks Phil - that looks like a good place for an O2 sensor.

16 hours ago, sfdownhill

Thanks JZH - not putting it there gives us a lot of leeway. That Erion is a good-looking assembly - is that your 2000?

Yes, and I should mention that the outlet was cut down slightly to match the TBR's length, and to keep the link pipe from sticking out too much.

I'm hoping to get in on the second 5th/6th gen production run, assuming my finances then allow! 

Ciao,

JZH

Sorry it is not on the bike, but the landmarks on the old header will give a good idea.

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Hey sfdownhill, 

Any reply from K&N tech support about the big mouth airfilter, was there a solution for 6g center stand stop and what was Wade's view on 3 bungs? 

Cheers

Good question boOZZIE - I followed up w K&N 3 times after emailing them the photos of both of their HA-8098 filters and got the run around each time. Their last position statement was that ‘it’s been pushed up to a product manager”, and I haven’t contacted them since before the dyno testing Jan 26.

I’ll give it another go.

Looking good highside,  it'd be nice to have my wideband for the rapidbike there too.

The lists on p1 of this thread have been updated. Now there is a 'LIST 8' made up of those who have placed deposits for 8th gen headers.

Deposits are $200 and can be sent to the paypal of vfrheaders@gmail.com. In the note section of the paypal transfer, please enter your username and '8th gen'. Enter '5th gen' or '6th gen' along with your username in the notes section if you are placing a deposit for the third production run, which will consist of 5/6th gen headers.

VFRD member Hammerdrill has purchased prototype 1 and we'll be taking his 6th gen to Attack Performance Saturday March 23 to do a stock baseline and dyno tune.

Another VFRD member [I haven't yet asked him if it's ok to mention him, so mum's the word for now] located geographically close to Duc2V4's control and command center has volunteered his 8th gen for prototyping and fitment. We have April 6 reserved at Attack to do a baseline and tune on his 8th gen. One of the 5/6th gen production units is tagged to become the 8th gen prototype - we hope through building the 8th gen prototype from a 5/6th production unit Wade will get his mind around the concept of building modular front primaries.

Tonight a PM is going out to all who have placed deposits for the first production run of 5/6th gen headers.

For the new headers, a center stand stop for 6th gen owners will be a $50 add on [maybe less - I'm getting a fixed quote next week] and will consist of a tidy stop welded to a simple t-bolt clamp that will be fastened onto the 6th gen midpipe. The stop will be a single piece of 13g [2.4m] bar stock with two bends and a hole for a rubber stopper [not included]. The bolt tension section of the t-bolt clamp will be oriented on the backside of the midpipe - toward the tire - so all that will be visible will be the stop. We don't have a finished example yet, but the clamp will be one of these two types - Delkevic is on the left and Staintune is on the right:

[image: 991357811_StaintuneandDelkevic.thumb.jpg.152d2982e317c13b8ea124aa72f6c419.jpg]

The center stand stop for 6th gen will look and function like the one on this Staintune,  but it will be built on a t-bolt clamp instead of being welded onto the midpipe:

[image: 1834340097_Staintunestop2.thumb.jpg.b983585dbd6f9259097f030cf51b425f.jpg][image: 714847785_Staintunestop1.thumb.jpg.c5dee0da61fdbb5e3e21110c67827c24.jpg]

sfdownhill, 2/22/2019 at 2:37 PM

Good question boOZZIE - I followed up w K&N 3 times after emailing them the photos of both of their HA-8098 filters and got the run around each time. Their last position statement was that ‘it’s been pushed up to a product manager”, and I haven’t contacted them since before the dyno testing Jan 26.

I’ll give it another go.

I rolled the dice and placed a call to K&N to revive the discussion about the big mouth version of the  HA-8098 for VFR800s. My call was answered by a representative who was not only willing to help, but held the position of product specialist. She could find no trace in the K&N system of the previous calls or emails I had exchanged with other reps. So I forwarded the email thread and photos to her this past Monday and heard nothing back. I sent an email follow-up today and eventually received this response:

"Hello,

The filter you are speaking of in the plastic wrap [large aperture version] is the only one we manufacture now. The older one may have been from our UK facility when we manufactured them there. The only one available for purchase is the one in the in the plastic wrap. The new one has more filter media space and will flow more air. If you would like to become a distributor of the K&N products or purchase for resale fill out our Dealer application. You can also email or call our UK facility."

I sent a brief response thanking her for getting to the bottom of the puzzle and observed that part of the mystery stems from K&N's website photos featuring the small aperture filter and people who have recently purchased HA-8098 filters from K&N dealers receiving small aperture filters. There was no further response from her.

To verify the info she provided, I ordered an HA-8098 directly from K&N's website. If it turns out to be the large aperture/big mouth filter that so many of us are after, I'll post it up on VFRD, then install the filter on VFRD member Hammerdrill's 6th gen prior to his dyno baseline and tune March 23.

Wow,  just dropped in to catch up between flights and you guys have been very busy. The clever bung fitting references and not being a pain in Wades butt are only exceeded by the work actually accomplished.  

I can hardly wait, hope to get one installed before the Spring Memorial ride.

Welcome back to VFRD after its little vacation. Hispanic Slammer, thanks for keeping the forum up to speed - you're efforts are appreciated.

To purchasers of headers:

Duc2V4 and I are unable to access PMs at this time, but we are getting email notifications when you send a PM, and we can read what you wrote. Until VFRD is back to being a fully armed and operational battle station, you can email us at vfrheaders@gmail.com. A few of you have already done this and it's working well as a stop-gap measure.

K&N's large aperture [big mouth] air filter with part number HA-8098 is the only one they currently make for the VFR800. the big mouth is the filter we installed for dyno testing and tuning of the prototype headers. I was lucky enough to have purchased that particular filter from an individual in the UK for $85. Now the general public can purchase the same filter for $59.99 from K&N. The small aperture filter with the same part number is an old design, and is no longer manufactured. Confusion ensues because K&N on their own website and online retail dealers of K&N products all feature photos of the now defunct small mouth filter. Yesterday I ordered an HA-8098 straight from the K&N website and today a big mouth air filter arrived. I will attempt to attach a photo of the filter that arrived today:

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Wow. It's crazy how difficult it is to get a straight answer on this K&N filter issue. They claim the larger one is the current production but anyone that orders a K&N Filter gets the smaller version.

I remember posting a picture of my large mouth K&N filter almost 2 years ago now on the old 5th/6th gen header thread. K&N doesn't seem to have their shit together

3 hours ago, slowbird

Wow. It's crazy how difficult it is to get a straight answer on this K&N filter issue. They claim the larger one is the current production but anyone that orders a K&N Filter gets the smaller version.

I remember posting a picture of my large mouth K&N filter almost 2 years ago now on the old 5th/6th gen header thread. K&N doesn't seem to have their shit together

I ordered a K&N, last spring, and received the larger element. I believe, the issue stems from what each distributor has on their shelves. For instance, a smaller distributor may not stock it and orders direct from K&N at the time the customer (us) orders and they receive a large element. Whereas a large distributor may have stock sitting on the shelf from 5yrs ago and the customer ends up with a small element. I think, your best bet is to order direct. I feel like the K&N rep probably walked out to the warehouse and physically pulled a filter to double-check the element for their conclusive answer. 

Wish they'd allow us to return the restrictive filter for the new one; I have one taking up space on a shelf. No sense to run it over stock.

So, silly question. Is the big mouth K&N worth it over a piper cross?

Right now I have a gently used small mouth K&N in my toolbox and a pipercross in the bike (it's a long story). Don't know that either made a lick of difference, but I had been led to believe the piperX flows a little more air than the stock and smaller K&N. Am I wrong in that assessment?

Just thinking that getting another air filter might be a fool's errand if the difference is only slight.

I talked about this in the last thread.  Basically there is no easy horsepower in filters, we are talking the last percent and trading something to get it.

Edit: Found it

PMs are back on line, so communication regarding headers can resume there,

2 hours ago, MadScientist

I talked about this in the last thread.  Basically there is no easy horsepower in filters, we are talking the last percent and trading something to get it.

Thanks, that's what I thought. I really appreciate the confirmation, though.

At this point I have a new air filter,  reputed to have good flow, so I am comfortable just maintaining it going forward. One less thing to worry about.

On our heavily built NC30’s, full on SBK builds we are running stock air-boxes and stock air filters. The only setup that nets noticeable gains (we’re talking 2.5 HP on our 80 HP 428cc engines) is fully open air boxes with either proper ram air and a sealed tank to make a big volume air box or open trumpets and an open tray. Anything K&N ish tend to not make more power than stock and cause running issues on the carb’s bikes. My engine builder is running FI too and going back to stock-ish airboxes and filters until he can find something better. Can’t do open anymore because any crash ingests dirt.


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Well the small K&N when moved to the top of the air box in my big air box mod, added 5hp, the filter is NOT restrictive, it’s location is ! 

2 hours ago, Mohawk

Well the small K&N when moved to the top of the air box in my big air box mod, added 5hp, the filter is NOT restrictive, it’s location is ! 

Good point Mohawk. On your mod, I was impressed that the gap between the tank and the air box could flow so much air, and it certainly works well. Your ram air mechanism is cool, too - it makes sure the air supply to the filter is plentiful.

Hi all, just wanted to let you I am working on getting the totals for passivization, bungs, center stops and shipping together. I've been trying to do this when I had the time after work but after being in Montana all last week and coming back to a full plate of work this week, it's taking me some time to gather all the data and numbers for you all. Please be patient, I'll have the totals shortly, if only this work thing didn't get in the way all the time!Insert other media

Been working a bunch lately myself. No worries.

MadScientist, 3/6/2019 at 10:38 AM

I talked about this in the last thread.  Basically there is no easy horsepower in filters, we are talking the last percent and trading something to get it.

Edit: Found it

Thanks for reposting that Madscientist - good stuff.

MooseMoose, 3/7/2019 at 5:29 AM

So, silly question. Is the big mouth K&N worth it over a piper cross?

Right now I have a gently used small mouth K&N in my toolbox and a pipercross in the bike (it's a long story). Don't know that either made a lick of difference, but I had been led to believe the piperX flows a little more air than the stock and smaller K&N. Am I wrong in that assessment?

Just thinking that getting another air filter might be a fool's errand if the difference is only slight.

I've got the same filters, small k&n and piper cross. 

I clean 1 and put the other in while the 1st is drying . That way there is no downtime.

I wouldn't bother getting a third larger filter

my 2c

Updates:

1 - We are waiting to hear back from Wade about how the production run is progressing - it's scheduled to be done this week.

2 - This past weekend we fitted prototype headers to a 6 gen. We needed to trim 5/8" off the collector exit, then OEM 6 gen mufflers fit great. By early next week I will mount the now-trimmed prototype to my 5 gen to recheck fitment. I'll use an OEM muffler, TBR slipon, and Staintune slipon [Using both support brackets on the Staintune to lock down positioning] to confirm that proper fitment is maintained on 5 gens after the 5/8" trim.

3 - We have an 8 gen loaner in our sinister clutches. Monday Duc2V4 mounted new tires while I installed speed bleeders and new brake/clutch actuation fluid to get  acquainted with the 8 gen - neither of us have one [Yet]. We will be installing a PCV on the 8 gen. One of the production run 5/6 gen headers will be converted to the 8 gen by modeling the curves of the 8 gen front primaries. Wade will build a prototype, then we'll do a baseline and dyno tune April 6.

Thanks for your and Duc2V4's hard work, SF!!

6 hours ago, sfdownhill

2 - This past weekend we fitted prototype headers to a 6 gen. We needed to trim 5/8" off the collector exit, then OEM 6 gen mufflers fit great. By early next week I will mount the now-trimmed prototype to my 5 gen to recheck fitment. I'll use an OEM muffler, TBR slipon, and Staintune slipon [Using both support brackets on the Staintune to lock down positioning] to confirm that proper fitment is maintained on 5 gens after the 5/8" trim.

5/8" shouldn't be an issue on the 5th gen. I had to trim about that much to mount my TBR pipe on my '98. Reinstalling the stock pipe, and a Scorpion were no problem. The GPR I have is very similar to the Scorpion.

 Thanks for the updates!

5 hours ago, MBrane

5/8" shouldn't be an issue on the 5th gen. I had to trim about that much to mount my TBR pipe on my '98. Reinstalling the stock pipe, and a Scorpion were no problem. The GPR I have is very similar to the Scorpion.

 Thanks for the updates!

Hi Weirdo - it's good to hear first hand that 5/8" probably won't matter on 5 gen. If the same holds true for prototype 1, we'll just have Wade slice 5/8" off each production run header's collector exit.

Great to hear that the 8th Gen is getting closer.

Can't wait to see what it's like.

Good work guys.

Hi all, just wanted to give everyone an update. I finally got a lull in my work schedule and was able to get pricing and work with SFDownhill on all the costing numbers and options you have selected. On that vein, I will be sending out later today, PMs to all of you who have gave your deposit and shipping info with the information we have received. Ideally we have it all correct but that is where you will come in. Once you get the PM. please look over the info and make sure we got it right.

As far as the headers go, we spoke with Wade yesterday and this morning, he anticipated being able to deliver the first batch by early next week, we have no reason to doubt that will happen, so we anticipate being able to pick them up and get those that will have passivization done dropped off shortly after we take possession. I'm sure everyone is chomping at the bit as much as we are, all I can say is the last mile is the longest mile! Hard to believe this has come to fruition, let alone almost here!

Cheers,

D

Whoops, I just sent you and Lance a PM in case I missed something.  Should have checked here first.

I still can't believe this is actually happening.  Thanks for all your hard work!

I just sent out PMs, if you have made your deposit and are expecting a PM regarding this first round of headers and did not get a PM from me, please PM me and let me know and I'll make sure I get yours out to you. Getting closer folks!

Cheers,

D

NO FRICKIN' WAY! When a project hits a couple of the 'just one more week' cycles, it raises one's eyebrow a bit. But here is physical molecular evidence of the cause of giant ____-eating grins on the faces of 22 VFR owners:

Rows of cylinders 1-2 merges alongside rows of cylinders 3-4 merges:

[image: 628292685_productionheaders3.thumb.JPG.7ebeeea02313ab7154be992bd28bb6b1.JPG][image: 1914395031_productionheaders2.thumb.JPG.5807b718db2bf2c62c7d960832fc2c0a.JPG]

And here is a set of production headers just the way we like our women...almost fully dressed:

[image: 827568677_productionheaders1.thumb.JPG.c98181540778f7de5e7a230c6d9bb0ee.JPG]

....face down in the position 😆

:cheerleader: :cheerleader:

transferring money to paypal today !!!!!

This is nice to see.  It has been a great project, and y'all have done a good job seeing it through. But there's something to seeing the physical results that really makes it feel concrete. Satisfying.

I ordered gaskets last week and they're on their way. Got my shift star finally coming, too. Guess it's almost time to strip the bike down and really get in there.

I forget -- what's the deal with center stands? Can we remove and replace them with the headers in place, or do we have to drop the headers?   My current set (Delkovic) you have to disconnect a pipe to get at the bolt on the right side of the centerstand. Tempted to clean mine up and give it a fresh powdercoat. If I have to drop the headers to reinstall it I might do it before the exhaust.

1 hour ago, MooseMoose

I forget -- what's the deal with center stands? Can we remove and replace them with the headers in place, or do we have to drop the headers? 

Hi MooseMoose - yes, the headers need to be removed in order to remove or install the center stand [CS]. It's the same with OEM headers. Being able to remove just one pipe on your Delkevic to remove or install the CS is a nice feature. Alas, it will not be so with the new headers.

Another member was asking the same question you are - a lot of us like having the CS on for touring and off for sport or track riding. I mentioned to the guy asking the question that another member here - I'm pretty sure it was BusyLittleShop [One of our resident VFR gurus with an advanced degree in the RC45] had set his VFR up with a quick release system so that he could remove and replace the CS without removing the headers. It would be great if anyone has time to search out that thread and see what it says. Now that it's come up a few times, I'll PM BusyLittleShop and see if he can offer any insight.

I had another thought on removability of CSs: since only the right side CS fixing bolt access is hindered by the headers, and the bolt hole for the right side fixing bolt goes all the way through the cush bracket, there might be a way to run a tap all the way through the bolt hole to clear the threads, then thread a bolt of precise length through from the center of the bike outward to a nut on the outside of the CS where the bolthead usually resides. This would allow removal of the bolt without removing the headers.

NOTE - 6 GENS HAVE REVERSE [LEFT-HAND] THREADING ON THE RIGHT SIDE CS FIXING BOLT. 6 GEN LEFT SIDE CS FIXING BOLT HAS REGULAR [RIGHT-HAND] THREADING.

ADDITIONAL NOTE - 5 GENS HAVE REGULAR [RIGHT-HAND] THREADING ON BOTH THE RIGHT AND LEFT SIDE CS FIXING BOLTS.

[Please do not ask me why I'm so adamant about this or how I learned about the 5/6 gen CS bolt threading anomaly - it still stings a bit]

Here’s an important installation note about the new headers: using anti-seize on the head stud bolts (recommended) reduces friction enough that the 9 ft-lbs torque for the header nuts specified in the service manual has proven to be enough to bend even the thick, high grade stainless flanges Wade is using on our headers. We’re not sure if this happened because each of the two prototype headers has been installed and removed several times for fitment and dyno on both 5 gen and 6 gen motorcycles, or if 9 ft-lbs is just too much torque when using anti-seize. The flanges are still serviceable and nothing has broken, but bending where you don’t want it is always bad. As the flange bends toward the head, it likes to bend the head studs outward, which makes removal and future installations tricky. We’ll stay on top of this occurrence, try using less torque on future installations, and report back.

Thanks, this was just the discussion I was wanting to have.

Personally, I'm fine leaving it on once the pipes are on.  And I don't care about the weight savings.  I use it all the damned time, and 5 or 7 lbs dead center and low is not going to do a thing for me, as I'm a slow rider and fatter than the average bear.  I just thought it might be a good time to clean off some rust and pretty it up a little since I'm going to be ripping stuff off anyway. 

For others, a removable solution sounds interesting.

The delk's have slip fittings, so you can get that bolt out, but it isn't exactly a  feature. Slip joints are one way of avoiding weld cracks and the like, but taking them apart and putting them back multiple times is not a good thing. That's really leaks waiting to happen, which is why I haven't just yanked the pipe and pulled me stand off already.

49 minutes ago, sfdownhill

I'll PM BusyLittleShop and see if he can offer any insight

I sent a PM to BusyLittleShop asking about a quick release system for VFR center stands. Note - BLS has been logging pilot-in-command time in a P-51 Mustang lately, so he may be wonderfully preoccupied.

Anything that can be turned up about this by searching this site and VFRW will be welcomed.

sfdownhill Here’s an important installation note about the new headers: using anti-seize on the head stud bolts (recommended) reduces friction enough that the 9 ft-lbs torque for the header nuts specified in the service manual has proven to be enough to bend even the thick, high grade stainless flanges Wade is using on our headers. We’re not sure if this happened because each of the two prototype headers has been installed and removed several times for fitment and dyno on both 5 gen and 6 gen motorcycles, or if 9 ft-lbs is just too much torque when using anti-seize. The flanges are still serviceable and nothing has broken, but bending where you don’t want it is always bad. As the flange bends toward the head, it likes to bend the head studs outward, which makes removal and future installations tricky. We’ll stay on top of this occurrence, try using less torque on future installations, and report back.

Yeah, @WackenSS 42mm round copper gaskets are available from Delkovic USA, but aren't on their website. Just email them and ask for them specifically, or call them.

They are less than $5 each shipped in the US.   In the UK you can get them from the ebay.

MooseMoose Yeah, [mention=13175]WackenSS[/mention] 42mm round copper gaskets are available from Delkovic USA, but aren't on their website. Just email them and ask for them specifically, or call them.
 
They are less than $5 each shipped in the US.   In the UK you can get them from the ebay.

Still taking deposits for 5th gen headers? Not in a rush, but the progress shows!


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59 minutes ago, WackenSS

Did not find them on eBay.

Anyone have the part number?

Closest I found is https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F190691213429

You don't need Delkovic brand. Just search 42mm copper gasket.  Here's a store:  http://predatormotorsport.co.uk/EXHAUST-PORT-GASKET-ROUND-COPPER-42mm-O-D/

Less than three quid/3.34 Euro.  I think you still have a few weeks before they're out of the EU.

ZX7R gaskets appear to be the correct size, and type.

Yeah, and a few Suzukis are the correct size and type, too. 

82-92 GSXR1100 -- https://www.eeygoshop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=465599

the 1300s and large bandits are 42mm, too.

I don't know that the round section is the only good one (as opposed to the correctly sized flat ones). I just know that's what SFDownhill had good success with while the other sizes and options were less than optimal. So I'm sticking with what someone else proved works.

Just an FYI I have removed, and reinstalled the center stand on a 5th gen without removing the headers. It takes a bit of prying, and cursing but it's doable. Fortunately I have separate work, and play bikes now so don't have to do that again.

51 minutes ago, ScottieDucati

Still taking deposits for 5th gen headers? Not in a rush, but the progress shows!


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I believe the next run is for 8 Gens but sfdownhill can confirm whether we can squeeze in another 5 or 6 Gen or not.

2 hours ago, WackenSS

Did I miss the gasket discussion? Was it settled?

Having tried four different types of 42mm crush gaskets, we found the best option is 42mm copper crush gaskets from Delkevic (pictured in a couple places on this thread). The 42mm gaskets are not on Delk’s website and they do not sell them on ebay. I only learned of them because I was on the phone with Matt at Delk to order the 41mm gaskets they recommend for VFR800s (Hoping the 41mm gaskets would crush to a functional size) and Matt said they have and sell 42mm gaskets. The 42mm gaskets from Delk have a skinny, round cross section and crush to a perfect id that is larger than the VFR’s exhaust port. The Delk gaskets have a seam on one side - we put the seam side down, toward the head, to give the header’s collar a cleaner surface to press against. They create a good seal. All the other 42mm gaskets we tried were too big to fit into the head’s sleeve - where the headers seat - without grinding and/or cutting. I’m editing out reams of trial and error, grinding, cutting, splicing, and cursing data. Even the Delk washers are difficult to get started into the sleeve, but because they are so thin, they can be persuaded past the lip of the sleeve. After starting the gaskets in by hand, the headers do the rest of the job of escorting the gaskets into their final resting place, then crushing them. It’s a lovely kind of slow-paced violence.

Any way we can get the crush gaskets tacked onto the invoice?

9 hours ago, ScottieDucati

Still taking deposits for 5th gen headers? Not in a rush, but the progress shows!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Scottie - we have two of this production run tagged for prototyping as 8 gen headers. We may not need both, so there may be a spare 5 gen header. That won’t be determined for two more weeks.

When we suggested modular front primaries to Wade because they would allow simultaneous production of 5/6 and 8 gen headers, he stood firm - his process is to build one type of exhaust at a time, stem-to-stern.

The mention of schedule brings up the cancellation of tomorrow’s 6 gen dyno day. Over the past 6 weeks or so (In our spare time!) we’ve been doing surgery and 3D R&D on Hammerdrill’s OEM 6 gen mufflers (I’ll try to start a new thread on this effort). Bottom

line - we couldn’t get the mufflers done in time and decided to hold off on dyno tuning until we had the final configuration firing on all four cylinders - literally.

The current reschedule of dyno time puts us on April 6 and April 9. Whichever bike is ready first - 6 gen or 8 gen - will go on April 6, and the other will be dyno’d April 9. Gotta git’er’done in time to head down to COTA. We are working hard to have both bikes ready well before April 6, so we can flip a coin instead of being rushed.

8 hours ago, Airisom

Any way we can get the crush gaskets tacked onto the invoice?

Hi Airisom - good question. We've run through the Delkevic gaskets we purchased, but it makes sense to order another slew of them so we can toss them [figuratively] into the boxes with headers. Delkevic charges $5 per gasket plus shipping. If we took on this additional task, individual purchasers wouldn't have to find and order gaskets, then pay Delkevic's flat rate shipping - the very small box of 16 gaskets weighed nearly nothing, and cost $11 to ship from Delkevic in Colorado to CA.

The only downside here is that Duc2V4 has just finished doing an stellar job of putting together a master spreadsheet and individual invoices for each individual who has purchased headers. His thorough spreadsheets account for basic cost, shipping, insurance, passivation [if selected], extra bung [if selected], 5 gen or 6 gen configuration [5/8" difference in collector exit length], center stand stop [if selected], deposit placed, and sales tax where applicable. With headers set to be picked up next week, we can't introduce variables that could cause delays in gathering the funds we will need to pay Wade before receiving the headers.

Does anyone have a suggestion for including gaskets and their cost without re-invoicing or slowing down the payment/picking up headers process? Half of the purchasers of headers have paid their final balances, and I'm sure the rest are about to. We'll have a week after picking up the headers during which most of them will be at the metal treatment company for passivation, so we can work out the gasket options then, before shipping.

Duc2V4, 3/20/2019 at 11:28 PM

I just sent out PMs, if you have made your deposit and are expecting a PM regarding this first round of headers and did not get a PM from me, please PM me and let me know and I'll make sure I get yours out to you. Getting closer folks!

Cheers,

D

With that many PMs, should we start calling you PMaster? Or maybe Message Man, and get you a set of leathers with a bold 'PM' logo?

@sfdownhill, if I could get the thickness of the delkevic i can source them locally. don't want it to be crushed into the port when tightening.

I'd suggest a group-buy for lower cost and getting proven gasket, making sure it won't delay shipping, and then just have people PayPal that extra amount before it wraps up.

Well, they don't have to be tacked onto the invoice, but it would be nice if they were included in the package. Treating it separately would be fine for those who want them. 

I just figured that shipping a bulk of them to a single address would be a lot cheaper than shipping individually to multiple addresses. 

WakenSS' idea could work for me as well. 

19 hours ago, sfdownhill

I had another thought on removability of CSs: since only the right side CS fixing bolt access is hindered by the headers, and the bolt hole for the right side fixing bolt goes all the way through the cush bracket, there might be a way to run a tap all the way through the bolt hole to clear the threads, then thread a bolt of precise length through from the center of the bike outward to a nut on the outside of the CS where the bolthead usually resides. This would allow removal of the bolt without removing the headers.

NOTE - 6 GENS HAVE REVERSE [LEFT-HAND] THREADING ON THE RIGHT SIDE CS FIXING BOLT. 6 GEN LEFT SIDE CS FIXING BOLT HAS REGULAR [RIGHT-HAND] THREADING.

ADDITIONAL NOTE - 5 GENS HAVE REGULAR [RIGHT-HAND] THREADING ON BOTH THE RIGHT AND LEFT SIDE CS FIXING BOLTS.

[Please do not ask me why I'm so adamant about this or how I learned about the 5/6 gen CS bolt threading anomaly - it still stings a bit]

I had a similar idea for a quick release CS. I was thinking of trying to find an appropriate size clevis pin to replace the bolt and secure it with a hitch pin or split pin.

If you ever try to search ebay for a 6th Gen Rear Cushion (Thats the part that mounts the swingarm to the engine and what the CS is mounted to) they ALL have the right side bolt head broken off! LOL

3 hours ago, BuzznerSuntrusts

If you ever try to search ebay for a 6th Gen Rear Cushion (Thats the part that mounts the swingarm to the engine and what the CS is mounted to) they ALL have the right side bolt head broken off! LOL

So true. The irony in my case was that I had been working on a couple 6 gens and was prepared for and expecting the reverse threads. Then I went to take the center stand off of my 5 gen....I swear that bolt never even slowed down before it snapped off.

I really like your idea for a clevis pin in place of the right side CS fixing bolt.

Payment sent. Still hard to believe this is actually happening, might be able to get them on before riding season gets into full swing.......

PM’d, just keep me posted. This is too amazing not to get in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

fyi - 42mm copper crush gaskets are available from the Delkovic website -

https://delkevic.com/accessories/gaskets/copper-gaskets/

Awesome! That's a brand new addition. They weren't there a week ago.

Hold off on purchasing these, we are trying to put a deal together so they come with the headers 

Dropped my deposit.
I think you have my phone #.  Let me know when my bike can help you guys out.

Thanks   Voided.  The 8 gen  header is in the works - coming up with a date to build  and fit the prototype with Wade. 

 Update on crush gaskets –  over this past weekend, Delkevic sold all 50 of the 42 mm gaskets  they had in stock. They will have more in 1 to 2 weeks, which may  or may not line up with headers having been passivated. The math points to about half of those who have purchased headers having purchased crush gaskets.  It will be simplest for the remaining people who want to  purchase gaskets to contact Delkevic and place them on back order so they will have them on or about the date their headers arrive. 

 I ordered a couple sets of the ZX7R gaskets from the jungle, but I have no problem getting in on a group buy since I like to keep things like that in stock. Sucks to get hung up on a build or repair for lack of something so simple.

Definately let me know b4 may guys.  Mid-may it's more than likely I will be home (in ohio) on leave for a full month.
I can make arrangements,  but not if I can't plan ahead a little bit.
 

46 minutes ago, Voided76

Definately let me know b4 may guys.  Mid-may it's more than likely I will be home (in ohio) on leave for a full month.
I can make arrangements,  but not if I can't plan ahead a little bit.
 

Copy that, Voided. I’ll be home in 1/2 hour and PM you about schedule and a couple other items. Thanks

First off, Duc2V4 and I are very grateful to all the purchasers of headers. Thank you all for responding so promptly to our accounting details, shipping estimates, and requests for payment.

Second item - yesterday morning I got a text from Wade saying he wouldn't be able to deliver the headers this week. His text had a congenial tone and even joked about the "Many many many many varieties" ['Varieties" meaning different combinations of collector exit length and bung options]. We exchanged a few more texts - I was attempting to determine the exact cause of this 3rd [4th?] delay, but failed to gain any insight.

Duc2V4 and I discussed what the best way of dealing with this last of several delays would be. We decided that today [Yesterday, Thursday March 28] I would load up the 8 gen test bike and drive out to Wade's shop - two hours each way - to pop in unannounced and get to the bottom of the delays. We elected to take the 8 gen because Wade had indicated that he had down time, and if the down time was real, we could make progress on the 8 gen prototype headers.

At the shop, I found that all the headers in this production run have been completed, but none of them have had any bungs installed - lack of bungs is the cause of the delay [ See photos below]. This delay is my responsibility because three weeks ago, when exchanging information about bungs and bung locations with Wade, I asked him to use 3/4" tall bungs instead of the 1/2" bungs he has in stock. I specified taller bungs because I had just examined and measured OEM bungs on 6 gen headers; they are 3/4" tall. Also, we used tall bungs on prototype 1 to minimize intrusion of O2 sensors into the gas path, and the results were very positive.

3/4" tall bungs [Like OEM] are not common, so Wade contracted a local CNC shop to make stainless steel bungs to order for no additional cost. The CNC-equipped supplier of bungs has failed to deliver bungs. Wade and I charted an alternate course of action to obtain bungs if his local source failed to deliver by Monday. More importantly, we made a hard date of next Thursday April 4 for all the headers to be completed, paid for, and picked up. I have taken that day off work and will procure a vehicle large enough to transport 22+ headers.

Your age can be guessed by which parlor or board game you think the photo below resembles. If you say 'Pick Up Stix' you are probably in your 60s. If you say  'Jenga', you are probably in your 40s, maybe late 30s. If you do not recognize the names of either of these two games, you are probably a millennial.

[image: 273756922_productionheaders4.thumb.jpg.233962cd6216e059195dd3c6fa7cb399.jpg]

I told Duc2V4 that if he could find his own set of headers in this pile, he could have them for free. He blasted back "OK, they're all mine. Bazinga!"

[image: 547372339_productionheaders6.thumb.jpg.91b67d1c68633a8a55d48df929362bd4.jpg]

Yesterday the boxes and shipping materials arrived, so we are now prepared to strap, wrap, and slap shipping labels onto the suckers:

[image: 2114798863_shippingboxes.thumb.jpg.55ef7a3e79d2e6186dc25915d1c7a4bd.jpg]

Exhaust p0rn

:beer:  Sorry, it's all I could think of...

[image: Bung.jpg]

BuzznerSuntrusts BUNG!

Quick question about the 8th Gen version. it will need the splayed front headers to clear the rads, but will the outlet accept the 6th Gen high level pipe/mufflers?

2 hours ago, BiKenG

Quick question about the 8th Gen version. it will need the splayed front headers to clear the rads, but will the outlet accept the 6th Gen high level pipe/mufflers?

 

I am not aware of anyone mounting 6G pipes on an 8G bike,  though I have seen many 5G high mounts (Staintune and others) mounted on the 8G.

I dont think the undertail on the 8G would support the weight of hanging the 6G exhaust from it.

So, were they passivated before the bungs were installed?

1 hour ago, MooseMoose

So, were they passivated before the bungs were installed?

No, the bungs will be installed, then passivation will be done.

2 hours ago, CornerCarver

I am not aware of anyone mounting 6G pipes on an 8G bike,  though I have seen many 5G high mounts (Staintune and others) mounted on the 8G.

I dont think the undertail on the 8G would support the weight of hanging the 6G exhaust from it.

I cannot imagine any subframe capable of carrying 2 persons plus luggage would have any difficulty with any relatively minor weight increase due to a high level exhaust. Honda systems may be a bit weighty, but surely not that heavy.

Anyway, my requirements are not for actual standard models, but they will both be using front rads hence the need for splayed front headers while needing the outlet suitable for 6th Gen high level pipes and mufflers. The 5th and 6th Gen both use the same outlet dimensions, so either a 5th Gen low level or 6th Gen high level could be fitted to either (or so I am told), but is that also true for the 8th Gen? Is the collector outlet the same?  There was mention in here that the only difference for the 8th Gen would be the splayed front headers which implies the outlet is the same, but has that been determined?

One of my projects IS using a 6th Gen back end and high level exhaust, but with front mounted rad(s). The other will also be high level, but although not necessarily VFR 6th Gen, makes sense if both bikes use the same system.

 ...

7 hours ago, BiKenG

Quick question about the 8th Gen version. it will need the splayed front headers to clear the rads, but will the outlet accept the 6th Gen high level pipe/mufflers? 

If all goes according to plan, the new 8 gen headers will be the same as the new 5/6 gen headers from the collector exit all the way forward [including the rear primaries] until the front sections of the two front primaries.

Ken, yesterday Wade assigned us homework that pertains to your question about 6 gen fitment : to help foresee any fitment issues with the collector exit of the new headers for 8 gen, we are going to attempt to fit OEM mufflers and aftermarket slipons from both 8 gen and 5 gen to both of those bikes - gonna throw a multi-pipe mini-swapmeet party. Four mufflers, two bikes, no rules, best fit takes all. Even if the muffler hanger mount holes/brackets are in different locations, we will get a rough idea of whether collector exit length, angle, and position line up between the two motorcycles. If they line up as expected [Or should I say as hoped?], we can relax a tiny bit.

Fitment of 6 gen dual high mount mufflers can be extrapolated from the results of the 8-5 gen muffler exchange matrix because we had to cut 5/8" off the new 5/6 gen header's collector exit before the 6 gen OEM mufflers fit correctly on a 6 gen motorcycle. After the cut, OEM 6 gen mufflers fit perfectly.

50 minutes ago, sfdownhill

If all goes according to plan, the new 8 gen headers will be the same as the new 5/6 gen headers from the collector exit all the way forward [including the rear primaries] until the front sections of the two front primaries.

Ken, yesterday Wade assigned us homework that pertains to your question about 6 gen fitment : to help foresee any fitment issues with the collector exit of the new headers for 8 gen, we are going to attempt to fit OEM mufflers and aftermarket slipons from both 8 gen and 5 gen to both of those bikes - gonna throw a multi-pipe mini-swapmeet party. Four mufflers, two bikes, no rules, best fit takes all. Even if the muffler hanger mount holes/brackets are in different locations, we will get a rough idea of whether collector exit length, angle, and position line up between the two motorcycles. If they line up as expected [Or should I say as hoped?], we can relax a tiny bit.

Fitment of 6 gen dual high mount mufflers can be extrapolated from the results of the 8-5 gen muffler exchange matrix because we had to cut 5/8" off the new 5/6 gen header's collector exit before the 6 gen OEM mufflers fit correctly on a 6 gen motorcycle. After the cut, OEM 6 gen mufflers fit perfectly.

I look forward to the results of your 'swapfest' 😀

Couple of vfr 400 nc-30 pics taken today.
Don't know the firing order but both banks merged together. These are feckkin jewels![image: 5e16fde885961f9885cc76650fa6971f.jpg][image: f00bc9934b191d220837545f2ef2fd6c.jpg][image: 84e79151c52324b3c86125a68beae474.jpg][image: 2fed708828f4a52ab9814d222ad5afb3.jpg]

Nc30 is where my v4 obsession started.  They are magnificent machines.  Shame those examples have been "improved" with what looks like tyga fairings

kave Nc30 is where my v4 obsession started.  They are magnificent machines.  Shame those examples have been "improved" with what looks like tyga fairings

6 hours ago, sfdownhill

If all goes according to plan, the new 8 gen headers will be the same as the new 5/6 gen headers from the collector exit all the way forward [including the rear primaries] until the front sections of the two front primaries.

Ken, yesterday Wade assigned us homework that pertains to your question about 6 gen fitment : to help foresee any fitment issues with the collector exit of the new headers for 8 gen, we are going to attempt to fit OEM mufflers and aftermarket slipons from both 8 gen and 5 gen to both of those bikes - gonna throw a multi-pipe mini-swapmeet party. Four mufflers, two bikes, no rules, best fit takes all. Even if the muffler hanger mount holes/brackets are in different locations, we will get a rough idea of whether collector exit length, angle, and position line up between the two motorcycles. If they line up as expected [Or should I say as hoped?], we can relax a tiny bit.

Fitment of 6 gen dual high mount mufflers can be extrapolated from the results of the 8-5 gen muffler exchange matrix because we had to cut 5/8" off the new 5/6 gen header's collector exit before the 6 gen OEM mufflers fit correctly on a 6 gen motorcycle. After the cut, OEM 6 gen mufflers fit perfectly.

If it coincides with my picking up headers let me know it's not too much trouble to bring my variety of mufflers down with me for fitment experiments. Old school TBR, Scorpion, and GPR high mount. As long as the pipes line up bracketry/hangers is easy fab.

43 minutes ago, MBrane

If it coincides with my picking up headers let me know it's not too much trouble to bring my variety of mufflers down with me for fitment experiments. Old school TBR, Scorpion, and GPR high mount. As long as the pipes line up bracketry/hangers is easy fab.

Hi MBrane - if wade sticks to his commitment to hand over completed headers next Thursday, we can set up a time for you to pick up yours. If the 5/8 gen muffler fitment exercise hasn't yet taken place, bring your pipes, and we'll see how things line up.

This is prototype 2 packed and ready to ship to VFRD member carlgustav in Alabama. Once again I am confronted by my poor before-and-during photo-taking habits. That significant hunk of cardboard is 36x16x16" to allow minimum 2" on every side of the headers for protective packing material.

[image: 405540239_boxful2.thumb.jpg.6928cc0f25647c005a1e895c8c494008.jpg]

[image: boxful 1.jpg]

God bless U-Line. They have a box for everything!   You'll be getting fat, heavy catalogs pretty regularly now.

15 hours ago, WackenSS

Couple of vfr 400 nc-30 pics taken today.
Don't know the firing order but both banks merged together. These are feckkin jewels!

They are most likely 180 degree cranks like the VFR, NC13-NC24 had 180 degree cranks, NC30 & 35 had 360 degree (like the RC30/45 and early VFxxxF). 

Of course they could have later motor swaps or crank/cam swaps.  IDK if the earlier engines are compatible with the later parts though.

MadScientist They are most likely 180 degree cranks like the VFR, NC13-NC24 had 180 degree cranks, NC30 & 35 had 360 degree (like the RC30/45 and early VFxxxF). 
 
Of course they could have later motor swaps or crank/cam swaps.  IDK if the earlier engines are compatible with the later parts though.

18 hours ago, sfdownhill

Hi MBrane - if wade sticks to his commitment to hand over completed headers next Thursday, we can set up a time for you to pick up yours. If the 5/8 gen muffler fitment exercise hasn't yet taken place, bring your pipes, and we'll see how things line up.

This is prototype 2 packed and ready to ship to VFRD member carlgustav in Alabama. Once again I am confronted by my poor before-and-during photo-taking habits. That significant hunk of cardboard is 36x16x16" to allow minimum 2" on every side of the headers for protective packing material.

[image: 405540239_boxful2.thumb.jpg.6928cc0f25647c005a1e895c8c494008.jpg]

[image: boxful 1.jpg]

Do you have the boxed weight aswell.

I need that for some quotes on int. shipping.

I think those dimensions are  good, from memory max. was 95cm x 44cm x 44cm

I weighed it at a Postal Annex shop - 7.3kg / 15.9 lbs

pictures of the parrot helping with the packing process?

sfdownhill I weighed it at a Postal Annex shop - 7.3kg / 15.9 lbs

3 hours ago, WackenSS

And how much of that is just steel?

sfdownhill, 1/24/2019 at 7:22 PM

Prototype with springs and O2 sensor bungs: 9.5 lbs 4.3 kg [again, only if my conversion math is correct]

  

sfdownhill, 3/14/2019 at 12:28 PM

3 - We have an 8 gen loaner in our sinister clutches. Monday Duc2V4 mounted new tires while I installed speed bleeders and new brake/clutch actuation fluid to get  acquainted with the 8 gen - neither of us have one [Yet]. We will be installing a PCV on the 8 gen. One of the production run 5/6 gen headers will be converted to the 8 gen by modeling the curves of the 8 gen front primaries. Wade will build a prototype, then we'll do a baseline and dyno tune April 6.

Oh my, this is getting exciting!  :cool:

Sorry if I missed it, but has price been determined yet for a gen 8 header? 

That big pile of headers is beautiful don't ship them weld them together and make one big statue 🙂 

From the figues listed for the package size and weight, this is the approximate cost to get one to New Zealand.

this is in NZ$

[image: header-cost.jpg]

Not to beat this like a dead horse what was the thickness of the 42mm exhaust gasket? 3 or 5 mm see article below.

https://www.kzrider.com/forum/2-engine/560972-81-kz1000-csr-m1-exhaust-gaskets-needed

Just a heads up. delkevic has the 42mm gaskets back in stock now.

I have a feeling that the oem bent flange shownin the photo above is probably the result of overtightening the the exhaust nuts. The torque is only 9 lb.ft. 

 I’ve had my headers off a number of times for jet hot coating and a failed attempt of fitting Delkevic’s version 1 ss system. Their fixed front down pipes weren’t inline with the exhaust ports and the 2 rear pipes wouldn’t fit into the collector. If anyone’s interested, pm me. I’ll sell them cheap!

A note about the 6mm exhaust port studs and nuts. It’s possible/probable that one or more exhaust nuts will permanently attach itself to its stud resulting in the removal of the whole shabang! No matter what I tried, I could not unscrew the nut from the stud. Put anti-seize on the stud/nut assy to save future hassles.

In one post it was reported the 42 mm crush gaskets were not on Delkevic's website but in a much later post there was a link to a page of different gaskets, and there was a 42 mm gasket. I don't want to order the wrong gaskets- Is this the correct gasket pictured in the link?

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

4 hours ago, interceptor69

In one post it was reported the 42 mm crush gaskets were not on Delkevic's website but in a much later post there was a link to a page of different gaskets, and there was a 42 mm gasket. I don't want to order the wrong gaskets- Is this the correct gasket pictured in the link?

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
 

https://delkevic.com/copper-gasket-42-mm/

I apologize for the delay in posting updates - Duc2 V4 has been responsibly reminding me that header related things are happening and those who have purchased headers or placed deposits have a right to know.

The photos and brief details in this post will be supplemented with further information once I get to a peaceful place with a slower pace - the airport tomorrow.

Shipping - Duc2V4 and I discovered that the USPS Retail Ground shipping rates we quoted are only available in person in a US Post Office, after standing in line and filling out forms by hand. Luckily, Duc got busy with his corporate Fedex account and his careful cross-checking found that he can ship Fedex for about the same as the bargain basement price of USPS+insurance. With Fedex, specifying the package value establishes a coverage amount, so the headers shipped Fedex will be covered.

First shipped headers received - VFRD member carlgustav received prototype 2 headers today and we traded texts on fitment to his 6 gen [Prototype 2 was constructed and tested in January] . His install is looking good, but will have to wait until after a family celebration this weekend.

8 gen dyno day rescheduled - I made a mistake in thinking that the objective of last Friday's visit to Wade's shop was to produce a working 8 gen prototype. I was wrong - the actual objective was to fabricate a tacked-together 8 gen header from which Wade could build a jig, as he did with the original Two Brothers headers.

Temporary tack welds to hold assembly together:

I am nodding off, so will pick this up again tomorrow.

5/6 gen production headers are paid for and have been picked up - we visited Wade last Friday, counted up the 22 headers with various bung configurations, paid for them, and loaded them up into the rig to bring then home:

[image: 7819304_truckfull1.thumb.jpg.0a778abc073bd33ad60ac4517c1e6ee5.jpg][image: 1030350628_rig3.thumb.jpg.8d858fcc4ecaff3c9f678a176b3b31c2.jpg][image: 763982091_rig1.thumb.jpg.db5fb7aec09466d432ce7928501ef43c.jpg]

Second objective last Friday was check bung placement. Wade correctly observed that whether they were right or wrong, all the bungs were already done. Nevertheless, I test fit a 3-bung set of headers on our 5 gen fitment bike and all 3 bungs ended up their proper places. Here is the rear bung placement [Please pardon the accumulated rust and crud on the chain and center stand - this bike's rehab is off in the future a bit]:

[image: 954959261_prodbungrear1.thumb.jpg.efc036d4aca9d0e56d39c3689644be12.jpg][image: 1445094494_prodbungrear2.thumb.jpg.849bbd6104e4b3d734a8e0e30ed492d1.jpg][image: 894666204_prodbungrear3.thumb.jpg.a2c55f0206c7ed29fbcf3ad2678eae75.jpg][image: 740083501_prodbungrear4.thumb.jpg.a8d5a7f7b59e923dd1f306f858c912d9.jpg]

And here are the front two bungs:

[image: 2069996578_prodbungsfront1.thumb.jpg.097f85b7c9c66ab1fbd16df5ce5105dd.jpg][image: 450472805_prodbungsfront2.thumb.jpg.d8dc00c9a5bb185b0bd74427dcec0f74.jpg][image: 1083717558_prodbungsfront3.thumb.jpg.cbf9f053f73139d4e524a914d1fd4655.jpg]

Looking good.

One thing that people may need to be aware of is the bottom O2 bung is quite level so you need to make sure it cannot get and hold water vapour during start/warm up, especially when being warmed up on the side stand.

HighSideNZ Looking good.
One thing that people may need to be aware of is the bottom O2 bung is quite level so you need to make sure it cannot get and hold water vapour during start/warm up, especially when being warmed up on the side stand.

3 hours ago, HighSideNZ

Looking good.

One thing that people may need to be aware of is the bottom O2 bung is quite level so you need to make sure it cannot get and hold water vapour during start/warm up, especially when being warmed up on the side stand.

Yeah, I was concerned about this too when I saw it.  I think it will be ok, but I can't say for sure.  Some of the pictures look worse than others, but the one looking forward from the rear tire edge (picture 5) is reassuring.  The lower O2 sensor appears to be above the pipe midline and at a slight downward angle toward the tip, even on the sidestand.  It is close either way, that's for sure.

Standing upright, it looks like there should be no issues.  Just have to be careful with left lean until the exhaust is warmed up.  Also, don't fill the exhaust with water when washing...

6 minutes ago, MadScientist

Also, don't fill the exhaust with water when washing...

Then how are we supposed to get the inside of the pipes clean?

sfdownhill Then how are we supposed to get the inside of the pipes clean?

4 hours ago, sfdownhill

Then how are we supposed to get the inside of the pipes clean?

Italian overhaul. Hop on a freeway onramp and run it up to the rev limiter.

16 hours ago, HighSideNZ

Looking good.

One thing that people may need to be aware of is the bottom O2 bung is quite level so you need to make sure it cannot get and hold water vapour during start/warm up, especially when being warmed up on the side stand.

More angle on the next batch?

Last night's snoozefest continued:

5/6 gen production headers went to the passivators this week and will be ready to pick up end of next week. DucV4 and I have arranged to have a box-building and packing party as soon as we get the headers back, so shipping will take place April 22.

8 gen headers are under construction - Wade says we will have a working example ready for final fitment and the dyno at the end of next week.

The first objective on the 8 gen headers was to build a mockup set of headers from which he will build a jig [fixture] like the one he built around the original Two Brothers headers. This process was easier on the 8 gen than it was with the TBR, because the TBR were rare and sacrosanct - under no circumstances were they to be damaged. To build this mockup, Wade was free to cut, tack weld, sew, test fit, stitch back together, add length, change bends, etc. At his shop last Friday, he was making lots of sparks, loud metallic screeching sounds, and generating the smell of very hot metal all day [After disassembling the 8 gen, I hung around and kept busy with test fitting 5/6 gen headers to confirm bung placements].

Item #1 on his list was installing the upper rear primaries, and right off the bat, spacing didn't look great; they were too far apart from each other, and they ran into hard parts of the 8 gen. Part of this turned out to be the thick OEM crush gaskets that I neglected to remove - the gaskets were pushing the new primaries out of alignment. Most of the problem was caused by two other fitment/engineering conflicts we ran into. First, the 8 gen rear primaries are of much smaller diameter tubing and cross over each other before turning downward to where they merge. The left rear primary of the new headers, with larger diameter tubing and no crossover, runs into the inner heat shield - this is the curved sheet metal piece that resides between the left rear primary and the shock absorber. On the 8 gen fitment bike, we temporarily removed this piece. Second, the brake hose from the ABS controller to the rear caliper comes into contact with the new headers. We temporarily removed a bolt that holds two hard brake line fittings together so we could scoot the hose over - without disconnecting - and install the new rear primaries.

Refresher note:

8 gen OEM left and right rear primaries merge with each other, and 8 gen OEM left and right front primaries merge with each other.

5/6 gen OEM [and new performance headers] left front and left rear primaries merge with each other,

5/6 gen OEM [and new performance headers] right rear and right front primaries merge with each other.

Note the gussets Wade added here [and other places visible in other photos] to maintain spacing during assembly.

[image: 2145615071_8genfit1.thumb.jpg.a1e7ed142385218ae93b5b888146dbc4.jpg]

[image: 468962473_8genfit2.thumb.jpg.836611545cb1807e2b81410f0aebbb04.jpg]

Radiators off to start on the interesting part: crafting the front primaries. Here you can see the 'starter tubes' Wade made and installed into the front exhaust ports.

[image: 1584061464_8genfit4.thumb.jpg.05c13869201931036b6fc34b48cd4f9b.jpg][image: 642801654_8genfitfront1.thumb.jpg.a611dd85fb086e9d28c0b57f30b4c772.jpg]

[image: 2121338127_8genfitfront2.thumb.jpg.f70b45337b6e63f6b576bd142ded82f7.jpg]

[image: 784002610_8genfitfront3.thumb.jpg.b469f0816c27a2a78c882d451eec9999.jpg]

Note visegrips holding a spacer in place:

[image: 1649575437_8genfitfront4.thumb.jpg.49bda570ddf7592b25caa566a2a72781.jpg]

The collector exit was somewhat less trouble.

IMPORTANT NOTE: the 8 gen single OEM bung and O2 sensor are 12mm, not the 18mm fittings we've found with 5/6 gens and Bosch wideband sensors.

[image: 2019039002_8genfitcollector1.thumb.jpg.a50d56fc754a32f3d32b251acdb103a9.jpg]

Here is a nut tacked into the OEM bung location as placeholder:

[image: 900271440_8genfitcollector2.thumb.jpg.a729366adcc30595bb1eb701478e5bf7.jpg]

[image: 1105374821_8genfitcollector3.thumb.jpg.d84b1f755f7a0683ec60a39e0fb40c05.jpg]

[image: 1831145797_8genfitcollector4.thumb.jpg.00bfbec661099c50ac9da7c29fa50df8.jpg]

Everything was starting to look good, until we installed the fitment Staintune slipon and found it too far to the left, which meant the front end of the headers was misaligned. Think of the vertical sections  of the rear primaries [at the slip joints] as the center of a pivot; if the rear of the the header assembly is too far to the left - and it was - the front section of the assembly needs to be cut and reformed to bring the rear into alignment. Wade doesn't get phased by adjustments like this, he just chops off the offending appendage and gets busy making his mockup correct. In this case, cutting off the front pirimaries and realigning them correctly pivoted the assembly around the rear primaries' slip joints and the whole assembly came into front-center-rear alignment.

[image: 1988324558_8genfitexit1.thumb.jpg.325c03db14fcebcdd88b146c3ee5d70d.jpg]

Somehow this pipe looks good on any bike.

[image: 1798490466_8genfitStaintune1.thumb.jpg.be7bc7501b5986752fbecf8ab71ef4a6.jpg]

[image: 117098723_8genfitStaintune2.thumb.jpg.c56dd6a6b023cf6b941d526d2834dca0.jpg]

That's it for this update. I'll do 6 gen dyno day results in the next post.

[image: 8 gen fit 3.jpg]

[image: 8 gen fit exit 2.jpg]

[image: 8 gen fit front 5.jpg]

[image: 8 gen fit front 6.jpg]

2 hours ago, boOZZIE

More angle on the next batch?

Yessir - more angle on the next batch fersher.

It's a bit frustrating because I have OEM 6 gen headers and measrued their bung locations carefully. I put the OEM 6 gen headers in Wade's hands and specified that the two bung locations on the new headers' secondaries match the OEM. I'm in Texas [Yes for COTA motogp!] so won't be able to check the 6 gen headers until Monday night, but dang, I swear these new header's bung locations match OEM.

For the sake of those of us who don't yet know:

What problems are caused by water collected on and around an O2 sensor?

Increased wear/shorter lifespan. 

They can handle some water/moisture as is evident on cold morning start ups with drops of water coming out the exhaust.

Ideally the sensor should be on the top but that's not possible or practical to get at. So if they can be clocked around a little, that's all good.

Well stated Boozie.

I'm not thinking this will be a problem. For a couple of reasons.

1. The sensor tip won't be at the low point.

It is level, yes, but it's not at the bottom of the pipe and that's not the place the pipe will get a puddle in heavy condensation conditions. Above centerline is optimal, but what you really don't want is for the sensor tip to be where condensation can build up and enter the holes. I think that bung is high enough on the pipe that horizontal is not a problem.

2. Those sensors have a heater on them.

They're not like the olden days sensors where they rely on the exhaust heat to warm them up.

3. Those sensors really aren't used by a lot of us.

PCIII users unplug them and put a resistor in to simulate the heater coil and tune off of that.  3 hole guys like me, running Rapidbike with the wideband, flip on the RBo2 Active anyway, which spoofs the signal. If those aren't working optimally after 30K miles, for PcIII or My Tuning Bike users, no harm no foul.

All they do is tell the ECU when you're in steady state anyway so it can lean off the fuel and make the bike run like shit when cruising, causing you to have to roll on the throttle, which takes it out of lean mode and surges... fuck I hate that "feature" from Honda. Anyway, I think the only people who will actually use them will be rapidbike guys without MTB. Everyone else unplugs them or overrides them.

Delicious!  Looks like the mock up is gonna work with some fenagling.  might have to get creative with some pig-iron to semi-permanently scoot the brake lines out of the way.  

Have you guys tried a service?  

AKA being able to get the oil filter out with most of the fairings on?

It's a pita with the baby header  😬

If it's at all possible maybe you could push the shifter-side primary a wee lil closer to the block for a bit so you can easily get the filter inbetween the inner-fairing stay and the primary.  it'd make service life a HELLUVA lot easier than stock.

The normal positioning of O2 sensors, from the Bosch documentation, is that they should be a minimum of 10 degrees above the horizontal centreline.  See below:

[image: image.png.bb297a66c4bb9487bf0420c50eae23fc.png]

I'm probably wasting my time saying this but here we go anyway:  I have about a decade of experience with motorcycle fuel injection systems that use Bosch wide band O2 sensors mounted at a level angle.  On both of my do-it-yourself fuel injection motorcycles it turned out that I needed/wanted to mount the O2 sensor at a level angle.

So 10 years ago when I was building up my first FI motorcycle I was asking/worrying about this exact issue.  I ended up having the opportunity to have a back-and-forth email dialog with a couple of Bosch engineers from the division that produces these sensors.  You wouldn't believe how unconcerned these two guys were about the effect of mounting one of their O2 sensors at a level angle.  They basically said that the "mounting recommendation" drawing was produced because it had to be done, a requirement demanded by the management. 

Their opinion was that as long as you don't mount the sensor at a downward angle you won't have any problems.  My experience with my FI project motorcycles bears this out, no problems at all.  Every so often I remove the sensor from the bung to do a "free air" recalibration of the O2 system and the sensor always looks good, just light carbon coating that you would expect.

I understand that I might be asking a lot here... but is there a chance of doing a test fit of the new 8th gen header prototype on a 6th gen before they go into production?

1 hour ago, SEBSPEED

I understand that I might be asking a lot here... but is there a chance of doing a test fit of the new 8th gen header prototype on a 6th gen before they go into production?

A 6 gen fitment of the 8 gen exhaust is a great idea. The only obstacle is near-term availability of a  6 gen for this test. I'd be happy to take a 6 gen with me when I take the 8 gen up for final pre-dyno fitment, but the two 6 gens we have easy access to are Hammerdrill's, which is now totally dialed and dyno tuned with the new headers, and Duc2V4's, which is his 'daily driver' - it gets him to work projects all around socal and he can't afford for it to have a few days of downtime. We'd be open to any other 6 gen loaner on which to test fit the 8 gen headers. But we are deep in 5 gens, with four on hand.

25 minutes ago, SEBSPEED

I understand that I might be asking a lot here... but is there a chance of doing a test fit of the new 8th gen header prototype on a 6th gen before they go into production?

I'm with Seb on that.

DYNODAY II : V4 GOES VTECH!!

This is VFRD member Hammerdrill's 6 gen. It has all these components in black: forks, rotor carriers, frame, OEM mufflers, swingarm, drive hub, footpegs, radiators, etc. In the middle it has Sebspeed's clutch cover, up top it has an 8 gen cockpit [bars and triple clamps] and deeply red R157 bodywork. All this black and gold pops with contrasting with pearl white wheels. I can't get enough of this bike. And it's not just a pretty face, it runs and handles great, as it is suspended by a full DMr suspension that Jamie built for Hammerdrill's weight and riding style, and has a Power Commander V smoothing out the fueling.

[image: 932318746_Niels6gen2.thumb.JPG.a96fabf2162a89ff7bf5e0a5f294110b.JPG]

[image: 1874055054_Niels6gen3.thumb.JPG.55053e72a00401919e9445a943f22b85.JPG]

So raises the eternal question - what next mod would benefit this motorcycle and keep us out of trouble for at least a short while?

Answer: Put it on the dyno! Get a baseline, then put new headers on it and tune the living heck out of it. So we did.

Wednesday April 10, we showed up at Attack Performance prepared. We had test fit the headers two weeks prior, and brought all the accoutrements we'd need to put the bike in Jozef's capable hands for baseline and tune.

[image: 1590578346_6gendyno1.thumb.jpg.49e2db6f20f7e53aa3349826bd6ee28f.jpg]

[image: 904850119_6gendyno3.thumb.jpg.880994fdde7ec60dabff7e373263945b.jpg]

I've made myself late here, so will slam up dyno charts and try to explain my way out of the ticket later.

[Who can figure out the lean spike in AFR between 10k and 10.5k rpm?]

6 gen baseline with zero map in PCV compared to middle graph w new headers and zero map in PCV, compared to top graph after full tune:

[image: 72396314_Attack6gencomparison041019.thumb.jpg.1e61f031741df239659eeac8bf08d335.jpg]

Here is the same comparison with a midrange reference line:

[image: 1715118063_Attack6genmidrangecomparison041019.thumb.jpg.0cd03bdd3d32a8ca0eed7dde6910267f.jpg]

Conditions on the day [All runs occurred same day]:

[image: 231238466_Attack6gencomparisonconditions.thumb.jpg.67371c1584307c5f51d66265fe81bfc0.jpg]

Comparison of tuned 6 gen to tuned 5 gen, both tuned with the new headers:

[image: 1742622582_Attack6genvs5gen041019.thumb.jpg.8c7e6f841757f3753daba758259e669d.jpg]

6 gen vs 5 gen conditions:

[image: 709811309_Attack6genvs5genconditions041019.thumb.jpg.d3c5b339d218ef503ce299864b942cf3.jpg]

1 hour ago, sfdownhill

A 6 gen fitment of the 8 gen exhaust is a great idea. The only obstacle is near-term availability of a  6 gen for this test. I'd be happy to take a 6 gen with me when I take the 8 gen up for final pre-dyno fitment, but the two 6 gens we have easy access to are Hammerdrill's, which is now totally dialed and dyno tuned with the new headers, and Duc2V4's, which is his 'daily driver' - it gets him to work projects all around socal and he can't afford for it to have a few days of downtime. We'd be open to any other 6 gen loaner on which to test fit the 8 gen headers. But we are deep in 5 gens, with four on hand.

6th would be ideal, but fit to a 5th would suffice for my purposes, which is to run a lower front rad on my Torocharged 6th gen. 

40 minutes ago, SEBSPEED

6th would be ideal, but fit to a 5th would suffice for my purposes, which is to run a lower front rad on my Torocharged 6th gen. 

You and all the other guys with supercharged 6 gens!

4 hours ago, GreginDenver

I'm probably wasting my time saying this but here we go anyway:  I have about a decade of experience with motorcycle fuel injection systems that use Bosch wide band O2 sensors mounted at a level angle.  On both of my do-it-yourself fuel injection motorcycles it turned out that I needed/wanted to mount the O2 sensor at a level angle.

So 10 years ago when I was building up my first FI motorcycle I was asking/worrying about this exact issue.  I ended up having the opportunity to have a back-and-forth email dialog with a couple of Bosch engineers from the division that produces these sensors.  You wouldn't believe how unconcerned these two guys were about the effect of mounting one of their O2 sensors at a level angle.  They basically said that the "mounting recommendation" drawing was produced because it had to be done, a requirement demanded by the management. 

Their opinion was that as long as you don't mount the sensor at a downward angle you won't have any problems.  My experience with my FI project motorcycles bears this out, no problems at all.  Every so often I remove the sensor from the bung to do a "free air" recalibration of the O2 system and the sensor always looks good, just light carbon coating that you would expect.

Im thinking that a downward angle is needed so that if there is moisture on the sensor and the bike is hibernating, then the water can drip off.

So... looking at the charts it's the same. 5 easy horsepower. 10% HP possible, 7-8% torque.  Good numbers

I'm betting the bike feels great with that tune, and the bottom end looks good, too.   Could probably grab another HP or two with some ignition mapping, too.

2 minutes ago, boOZZIE

Im thinking that a downward angle is needed so that if there is moisture on the sensor and the bike is hibernating, then the water can drip off.

That's the theory.

But, practically, you just don't want it to stick out the bottom so water can pool on the sensor. As long as it is above the bottom you'll be fine.  I'm seriously not worried, and Greg having talked to Bosch engineers just puts me more at ease.

Hey sfdownhill, 

Has anyone done a video of those music makers 😆

SEBSPEED  
6th would be ideal, but fit to a 5th would suffice for my purposes, which is to run a lower front rad on my Torocharged 6th gen. 

it would be a cheaper road to fab a turbokit from a GSXR600 to the VFR.  and it would be a monster for quick spooling afterwards.

Voided76 it would be a cheaper road to fab a turbokit from a GSXR600 to the VFR.  and it would be a monster for quick spooling afterwards.

36 minutes ago, MooseMoose

So... looking at the charts it's the same. 5 easy horsepower. 10% HP possible, 7-8% torque.  Good numbers

I'm betting the bike feels great with that tune, and the bottom end looks good, too.   Could probably grab another HP or two with some ignition mapping, too.

 Yep - Hammerdrill only lives 6 miles from Attack, so he rode his VFR to and from the session. After he got home he texted “Hey! Now I can wheelie on this bike!”

And dang! Forgot about ignition mapping and how it helps the 6 gen. Does PCV have ignition mapping onboard, or does it require an add-on module?

41 minutes ago, boOZZIE

Hey sfdownhill, 

Has anyone done a video of those music makers 😆

We barely got the mufflers done in time, but we’d already test fit them two weeks ago after gutting them, before working on their internals. They will be finished in black and have black OEM heatshields trimmed and bead rolled to wrap around the trailing edges of the mufflers. Muffler mod will be covered in a separate thread.

Back on the 8th Gen headers

Someone mentioned that the front pipes merge together and so do the rears.  That is correct.  Look at this

[image: image.png.e3e0e40fb4d8c8cc06227a58ff1762de.png]

In my opinion Honda have gone on a cost saving drive with this and it is all about reducing costs in the pipes.

A single O2 sensor and crap merges.

The firing order is still the same between 5th, 6th and 8th Gen so our performance pipes will possible make a bigger gain on the 8th Gen

Just my opinion.

Phil

1 hour ago, sfdownhill

 Yep - Hammerdrill only lives 6 miles from Attack, so he rode his VFR to and from the session. After he got home he texted “Hey! Now I can wheelie on this bike!”

hah, Awesome!  Exactly the but dyno results we'd expect from those charts. It's between 5 and 10% pretty much everywhere from midrange up. Very nice charts, at least as exciting as the 5th gen runs.

Quote

And dang! Forgot about ignition mapping and how it helps the 6 gen. Does PCV have ignition mapping onboard, or does it require an add-on module?

I don't know for sure about PCV.   Rapid Bike Racing does for sure, I think PCV can do it, too, but I don't have first hand experience.  And rumor has it there is a lot of advance to play with on the 6th gens. It'll be fun to see a chart if anyone is willing to play with the advance after getting their headers.

PCV requires an ignition module.  Not sure if it is even compatible with the VFR800 PCV either - doesn't show up as an additional purchase option.

48 minutes ago, HighSideNZ

In my opinion Honda have gone on a cost saving drive with this and it is all about reducing costs in the pipes.

A single O2 sensor and crap merges.

This is true, HighSide. and as Wade and I discovered, getting a fat, non-crossover cyl #1 primary tube (left rear) past all the 8 gen hardware that Honda nestled in around the stock headers has proven to be a bit of a rub - solveable, but not solved yet.

Also to be noted is the difference in 02 sensor size - 12mm for stock 8 gen and 18mm for 5/6 gen and Bosch wideband sensors. We’ll have to get a plan together for 8 gen bung size. Wade is highly in favor of a single choice for 8 gen headers: get a single bung, single size, single placement or no bung at all.

Back to the 6th generation chart does anyone think the mufflers and the mid pipe had anything to do with the loss of power on top end.

Thanks for the update SF - have a great time in TX!!!

20 minutes ago, interceptor69

If you guys have any more gaskets and haven't shipped my headers I'd love a set of gaskets.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

If I got this correct, looks like SF sent me a text indicating the packages are now in the hands of FedEx! I think we can probably put some in a padded envelope for you. Hopefully SF chime in and let you know if he still has some available.

Well it looks like a majority of the packages are now in the hands of FedEx. I will be sending out PMs with tracking numbers soon. So be on the lookout. One note, FedEx wouldn't let me complete the shipping label without a recipient phone number, so I put my phone number down as the contact number. I assume this is in case they need directions or confirmation of address, if there is a concern for delivery issues. Anyway, once you have the tracking number, I believe you can go online and make delivery changes, like have them to hold the package at a FedEx location or even change the day you want the package delivered. That being the case, you might even have the ability to change the contact number. If so, I would say do that just for good measure.

Cheers,

D

Sounds great- thanks!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

VifferJ, 4/22/2019 at 6:26 AM

How does one go about ordering the 8th gen header and what's the cost? Or did you have to order in advance? 

Hi Viffer - got your PM, response sent. Cheers

 Just thought I'd chime in here too.

 Drove down to Duc2V4's place on Sunday to pick up my 2 sets. We had a good chat, and I left a case of ale for him & SF. The pipes look great! My GPR, and Scorpion mid pipes will need stretching, but my TBR will slip right on. I probably won't be able to mount 'em up for a few weeks as we have a race coming up, and there's a lot of prep to do on the car as well as the normal packing/RV related stuff. I'll post updates as things progress.

 Thanks again to you guys for making this happen. I still peek in the box in the garage with a bit of disbelief.

Duc2V4 and I got the first nasty surprise of this project when we went to pay Wade the balance due and pick up the headers VFRD members had ordered and paid for.

Our group had ordered a total of 24 sets of 5/6 gen headers, but the amount due was the balance on the cost of 25 headers. The extra cost - $760, equal to the price of one set of headers at the beginning of the project - was Wade's charge for building the fixture/jig from which the headers were built. This blindsided Duc2V4 and I more than a bit, but it became clear that Wade was not pulling a fast one; he simply charges one unit cost to build a jig. We simply had not understood this until the eleventh hour. We were 130 miles from home, and were not going to be able to take delivery of our 24 headers unless the fixture charge was paid along with the cost of the headers.

Duc2V4 stepped up big time and personally paid the $760 fixture charge. This was above and beyond the set of headers he was getting for his 5 gen. He saved us all from a minimum two week delay to sort out the additional cost and ask all purchasers for an additional payment.

Here is my request: Most of us are going to receive our headers this week, so this is a good time to ask that each of us who ordered headers now send Duc2V4 $32 per set of headers to pay him back. I used my personal paypal to send $32 to Duc2V4 at the vfrheaders@gmail.com paypal account.

[$32 is the nearest whole dollar amount to $760 divided by 24 - the number of headers we ordered]

Thank you very much, everybody.

On to 8 gen headers. The good news is that we now know Wade will charge us the cost of one set of headers for building the 8 gen header fixture/jig. Dividing this $790 cost by an estimated 20 sets of headers means the cost of 8 gen headers has become $830 per set.

As Duc2V4 and MooseMoose have described, we got the headers on their way to their happy new homes. I couldn't find any clowns to stuff into my van this past Monday, so instead attempted to find out "what is the maximum number of boxed headers that can fit into a Toyota Sienna?" Thank god motorcycling requires having tiedowns on hand...

[image: 260967128_boxesinvan1.thumb.jpg.2e6096fb292e8466138709c273455917.jpg]

The answer to the question "how many boxed headers fit into a Toyota Sienna?" is 15 if a human is driving, 16 if one of the boxes drives.

[image: A0CE9686-7F46-4642-ADB8-7E4015EA5D70.thumb.jpeg.97c16199f156678f0140e9b6b4c9157b.jpeg]

On to more important things. One look at the front primaries on these headers and you'll know what this means...

[image: 64CBD251-8C25-42BF-A9F4-6222E9B2A7D0.thumb.jpeg.d96c243acd90819b4e56cfd9ba2a7670.jpeg]

That's right - it's 8 gen time, and dyno day is just around the corner [EDIT - 8 gen dyno day was today 4/24/19]. Further updates will be available [posted] the following business day, or soon after that. Moosemoose, carlgustav, Hammerdrill, and Duc2V4 have helped compile a few pointers for installing the new headers and we will get those posted along with photos of 8 gen fitment sessions.

So briefly, here is the 8 gen dyno chart with Runfile 005 baseline, Runfile 011 new headers installed with zero map in PCV, and Runfile 034 the final result of tuning the 8 gen with PCV and new headers:

[image: 758108547_Attack8gencomparison042419.thumb.jpg.e8eecd2e935840c74d0421e693b6186b.jpg]

[image: 250416309_Attack8gencomparisonconditions042419.thumb.jpg.0fb97e7b6c6161766fb281291288ef85.jpg]

But that chart is not the best part of the dyno results, the chart below is the best part. Jozef inserted a reference line at 7000rpm to isolate the improvements in midrange. Horsepower at 7000rpm went from 62.11hp with stock exhaust to 71.90hp tuned with new headers - that's a huge bump right where a great deal of our fun is to be had. Torque at 7000rpm increased from 46.57ft-lbs stock to 53.92ft-lbs tuned. Schweet!

[image: 1844744579_Attack8genmidrange042419.thumb.jpg.6eb12d510f0bc069720a8dddf8f0ad58.jpg]

sfdownhill Duc2V4 and I got the first nasty surprise of this project when we went to pay Wade the balance due and pick up the headers VFRD members had ordered and paid for.
 
Our group had ordered a total of 24 sets of 5/6 gen headers, but the amount due was the balance on the cost of 25 headers. The extra cost - $760, equal to the price of one set of headers at the beginning of the project - was Wade's charge for building the fixture/jig from which the headers were built. This blindsided Duc2V4 and I more than a bit, but it became clear that Wade was not pulling a fast one; he simply charges one unit cost to build a jig. We simply had not understood this until the eleventh hour. We were 130 miles from home, and were not going to be able to take delivery of our 24 headers unless the fixture charge was paid along with the cost of the headers.
 
Duc2V4 stepped up big time and personally paid the $760 fixture charge. This was above and beyond the set of headers he was getting for his 5 gen. He saved us all from a minimum two week delay to sort out the additional cost and ask all purchasers for an additional payment.
 
Here is my request: Most of us are going to receive our headers this week, so this is a good time to ask that each of us who ordered headers now send Duc2V4 $32 per set of headers to pay him back. I used my personal paypal to send $32 to Duc2V4 at the vfrheaders@gmail.com paypal account.
[$32 is the nearest whole dollar amount to $760 divided by 24 - the number of headers we ordered]
 
Thank you very much, everybody.
 
 
 
On to 8 gen headers. The good news is that we now know Wade will charge us the cost of one set of headers for building the 8 gen header fixture/jig. Dividing this $790 cost by an estimated 20 sets of headers means the cost of 8 gen headers has become $830 per set.
 
 
As Duc2V4 and MooseMoose have described, we got the headers on their way to their happy new homes. I couldn't find any clowns to stuff into my van this past Monday, so instead attempted to find out "what is the maximum number of boxed headers that can fit into a Toyota Sienna?" Thank god motorcycling requires having tiedowns on hand...
[image: 260967128_boxesinvan1.thumb.jpg.2e6096fb292e8466138709c273455917.jpg]
 
The answer to the question "how many boxed headers fit into a Toyota Sienna?" is 15 if a human is driving, 16 if one of the boxes drives.
[image: 2118652220_boxesinvan2.thumb.jpg.3755d85ffec32eae0a8bbc2f0cc54610.jpg]
 
 
On to more important things. One look at the front primaries on these headers and you'll know what this means...
[image: 1395617983_8genheaders.thumb.jpg.c7c59a072b2da18ae92be797771ab255.jpg]
 
 
That's right - it's 8 gen time, and dyno day is just around the corner [EDIT - 8 gen dyno day was today 4/24/19]. Further updates will be available [posted] the following business day, or soon after that. Moosemoose, carlgustav, Hammerdrill, and Duc2V4 have helped compile a few pointers for installing the new headers and we will get those posted along with photos of 8 gen fitment sessions.
 
So briefly, here is the 8 gen dyno chart with Runfile 005 baseline, Runfile 011 new headers installed with zero map in PCV, and Runfile 034 the final result of tuning the 8 gen with PCV and new headers:
[image: 758108547_Attack8gencomparison042419.thumb.jpg.e8eecd2e935840c74d0421e693b6186b.jpg]
[image: 250416309_Attack8gencomparisonconditions042419.thumb.jpg.0fb97e7b6c6161766fb281291288ef85.jpg]
 
But that chart is not the best part of the dyno results, the chart below is the best part. Jozef inserted a reference line at 7000rpm to isolate the improvements in midrange. Horsepower at 7000rpm went from 62.11hp with stock exhaust to 71.90hp tuned with new headers - that's a huge bump right where a great deal of our fun is to be had. Torque at 7000rpm increased from 46.57ft-lbs stock to 53.92ft-lbs tuned. Schweet!
[image: 1844744579_Attack8genmidrange042419.thumb.jpg.6eb12d510f0bc069720a8dddf8f0ad58.jpg]
 
 
 
 

You rock Wacken - thank you!

Payment sent. Waiting on the header delivery like a 6 year old waits for Christmas  🙂

Payment sent. If I'd known I'd have handed you cash right there! Don't want you to be out of pocket after the scores of hours already contributed to this project.

Those 8Gen are good charts, especially around the vtec dip.  An honest 4% untuned and 7% tuned over stock is nothing to sneeze at on peaks, but that midrange is just lovely! Big, fat gains there.

[image: emoji383.png] sent [image: emoji1303.png]


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So... are these likely to stay in production for any length of time, or is it more of a "get in line now or regret it forever" situation? I ask because I missed this thread when it started, and now is a relatively tight moment, financially. It's not completely out of the question, but 6 months from now $800 would be a lot easier to come by.

5 minutes ago, Marvelicious

So... are these likely to stay in production for any length of time, or is it more of a "get in line now or regret it forever" situation? I ask because I missed this thread when it started, and now is a relatively tight moment, financially. It's not completely out of the question, but 6 months from now $800 would be a lot easier to come by.

I hear you, Marv! All my dreams of modifications/upgrades are temporarily on hold too. What gen VFR do you have? 8 gen headers are gathering orders for the next production run, probably 8 weeks to completion. After that, we’ll start another run of 5/6 gen headers, so somewhere along the line, headers will probably line up for you.

I've got an '06. Honestly, I have done most of the things to this bike I'm interested in doing (mostly reliability stuff) but a high performance exhaust is pretty tempting. I've got the money in savings where I could buy it at the moment, but that money didn't wind up there by making those sorts of choices!

Haha.... I was considering selling my VFR... but this header situation was too good to pass up. So header means I need a slip on, and a PC3... and shoot.... the shock is *right there* while you’re doing the headers so....


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Ah, see... I bought my bike with Leo Vince cans and a Power Commander, I did the shock last year (DMR), forks the year before... Upgraded to a modern r/r... Custom seat... 

Running out of low hanging fruit! 

Well done, gents I salute you for having pulled this off. Would I be right in assuming that the mysterious Wade will keep the jigs & after your group buys his contact details will be revealed, so people can order one offs from him ? Obviously the unit cost will be higher, but good for future buyers, or those like me that have no need of another set of headers yet, but may in the future.

All three 5/6/8 gens top out at 10500rpm, then flatline or decline. We know the restriction is not in the exhaust now, so you might like to try my big air box mod on one of those. When I did mine it added 5hp up top plus it let it keep breathing to the redline ! 🙂

Mohawk All three 5/6/8 gens top out at 10500rpm, then flatline or decline. We know the restriction is not in the exhaust now, so you might like to try my big air box mod on one of those. When I did mine it added 5hp up top plus it let it keep breathing to the redline ! [image: emoji846.png]
 

Got my pipes today! Can't thank all of you enough! What a damn good community we got going here, like seriously I don't think anything like this quite exists anywhere else! Sent my extra $32 to ya guys! Happy viffer Christmas y'all!!![image: 8ce64b43fd36dd70a8cbc4e2236a15fe.jpg][image: ec533d5c143b6b3398107fe8529b7d55.jpg]

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5 hours ago, Neo2122

You should add some pics of the mod and the scoop you made and all that, you had posted some diagrams but no straight up pictures of it from what I saw, and I am curious lol

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Lance,

Please let me know when the next batch of 5th and 6th gens are geared up to be made. I'm def ready to pull the trigger for the 2nd run of these.  Real curious to hear feedback from the guys running Staintunes on the 6th gen and how much of an issue it was getting the slipon midpipe to connect to the header (i.e. enlraging the end) Big thanks for getting these made.

Nick

With these headers is it possible to install the center stand AFTER the headers are installed? I have the headers but not the center stand stopper piece yet and was wanting to use my time this weekend to install everything. If i can install the center stand later once i get that piece then i will just do that. if not i may have to wait. So i'm just curious. Thanks.

You have to drop the headers to get the centerstand on.  They basically have to go on together, in fact, lower the headers and thread the stand up between, bolt on the stand, then put the headers back into place,  There's just no way to get the bolt in the right side space otherwise.

Soooo uh why did we have to remove the center stand..? The pipes go right through it without removing it... Unless I'm missing something here....[image: a90d239bafb043e1c319c837e1602e86.jpg]

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You CANNOT fit that centerstand through the gap between the downpipes and the outlet on a 5th gen. At least on mine you can't.  I just tried yesterday. You have to weave the centerstand up through it, which means taking it off, fitting it through, then ataching the centerstand before attaching the pipes.

I took illustrative pictures.

[image: assembly_190426_180720.jpg&key=360328019]

That's a 5th gen. I had to drop the stand.

I recon you could spring the headers past the centre stand looking at that photo.

Not sure if this would help any, just measured the cross member on the c stand and on the 6g it is 2.5mm less than the sides

Gee, I didn't think to try either of those things.

It's not as close as it looks and there's a whole lot of pipe out of frame. There are only so many angles you can get to and I had no leverage to expand anything.

Just plan on dropping the center stand on a 5th gen to feed it through. It's two fucking bolts and you probably should clean and regrease that mount anyway.

Just wanted to give an update for you all. I wanted to chime in earlier but I was helping a fellow VFR owner rebuild his entire 5 Gen braking system. That includes rebuilding all 4 master cylinders (3 brake and 1 clutch) and the secondary MC and all three calipers. Plus replacing the rear rotor (long story) and replacing the brake lines to stainless steel Galfer lines! Yeah long day and we got close but ran into a few SNAFUs and have to order a couple more parts, so we'll have to continue another day.

Anyway, on to my update, yes we were able to get the first lot of 5/6 Gen headers finally, Whew! that was fun but in regards to those who are waiting for center stand stops. That's a sore subject at the moment. The second party we approached to handle this said they needed a bike with the new headers on and some sort of mock up of what we were looking for. SF had made a template that was meant to be used with a T-clamp and would have been able to work with either gen. However, the folks who had the task did not seem to not understand that the template was a concept piece and not a fully functional piece, it needed work and figuring out, which was supposed to be their job.. Well they took it as "Here, make some of these and add them to the t-clamps"

So after keeping the bike for a week and producing useless components, which they determined wouldn't work after they made them, said "We tried but could get what you wanted to work. But we did provide you with parts we made from your template, that'll be $150 please". Needless to say, this was not what we were expecting, especially being handed cut pieces of steel that was pattered off of a "concept" piece! So now we are looking to try another shop that was too busy to handle the first attempt as well as another concept that might work just as well if not better!

In summary, those who ordered and are waiting for center stand stops, please be patient, we are working on it.

Cheers,

D

🤔Would it be easier for the stop to be attached to the c stand somehow?

MooseMoose [image: assembly_190426_180720.jpg&key=3603280190a423884b90dd79f68e76fe77813758c20937ee6738b5cc3811ede9]
 
That's a 5th gen. I had to drop the stand.

When I added my custom High mount pipe, I forgot to spec a stand stop. So I bought some 4mm wall silicone hose cut a 2” length then slit it along one side. Slid it on to the right leg of the centre stand, whilst the bike was on the side stand, adjusted it in place to centre on the contact with the exhaust & cut a little away to fit around the stand cross bar. Once all adjusted, I cable tied it in place. Worked a treat ! 

I think I had more space due to the fact that the 6th gen headers had that extra lil bit of length removed from the outlet ping for better fitment if I recall correctly, but what ever the reason, the headers I had for my 6th gen didn't require center stand removal [image: emoji2369.png]

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3 hours ago, MooseMoose

Gee, I didn't think to try either of those things.

It's not as close as it looks and there's a whole lot of pipe out of frame. There are only so many angles you can get to and I had no leverage to expand anything.

Just plan on dropping the center stand on a 5th gen to feed it through. It's two fucking bolts and you probably should clean and regrease that mount anyway.

Don't forget that the righthand centre stand bolt, looking from the rear towards the front, is a LEFTHAND thread.

There have been many, many that have been snapped off when trying to remove the stand!

Although I am going to put my set on m y 5 Gen, sans center stand, I am on the waiting list for Center Stand Stop for my 6 Gen.  When I put a set of 98-99 cat-less headers on my 6 Gen, I had to come up with a solution. I came up with a temporary one. I went to Home Depot and bought a conduit hanger and did a little adjustment to it. In order to keep the tension of the clamp, I drilled 4 holes in the bend and looped some safety wire through it. Instead of a rubber bumper, I ended up putting a zip tie mount on the bottom. It worked great but wanted something a little more elegant, hence being on the waiting list for a new one.

[image: IMG_4102.thumb.JPG.0bc7ba12a29c0937c3b942935ff7e2de.JPG]

[image: IMG_4103.thumb.JPG.316c1b04e83449f4cff18a06e4f7266d.JPG]

[image: 57802331804__2C872A7F-2124-4090-B81F-B9B5DCAF829C.thumb.jpg.11f7410e67367f74be20096f2d65ec30.jpg]

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When i bought the Vance & Hines titanium pipe it came with a piece that works as a centerstand stop. It wouldn't be difficult to fabricate. Here's a photo or two. U can see why I ordered new headers![image: 4b21d2bc522c4c70b5d539d4e6072d32.jpg][image: 44b042b3bc41925f32898e549a4a4f00.jpg]

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Sorry to hear about the trouble with the shop, that sucks. That seems to be a part I could produce. If a solution isn't found by the time I get my 8th gen headers on my bike, I'll be able to offer whatever part I make for myself to those that still need them. 

5 hours ago, HighSideNZ

Don't forget that the righthand centre stand bolt, looking from the rear towards the front, is a LEFTHAND thread.

There have been many, many that have been snapped off when trying to remove the stand!

6TH GENS! (ONLY?)

Not sure on 8th, but 5th is standard.

24 minutes ago, SEBSPEED

Sorry to hear about the trouble with the shop, that sucks. That seems to be a part I could produce. If a solution isn't found by the time I get my 8th gen headers on my bike, I'll be able to offer whatever part I make for myself to those that still need them. 

Hmm, I’ll talk to SF and see what he’s thinking. Definitely appreciate the offer!

38 minutes ago, interceptor69

When i bought the Vance & Hines titanium pipe it came with a piece that works as a centerstand stop. It wouldn't be difficult to fabricate. Here's a photo or two. U can see why I ordered new headers![image: 4b21d2bc522c4c70b5d539d4e6072d32.jpg][image: 44b042b3bc41925f32898e549a4a4f00.jpg]

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Exactly, this is what I saw yesterday on the friends 5 Gen I was working on. I sent a picture to SF and we think this is a possible solution. I was going to mock up something later today and see if I can fit it to my 6 Gen. Or at least try, since I was in the garage all day yesterday the wife is asking for her time time! 🙂

That looks like something prime to 3D print too... if someone has a drawing I could look into it...


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2 hours ago, BuzznerSuntrusts

6TH GENS! (ONLY?)

Not sure on 8th, but 5th is standard.

Beat me to it.   My 5th gen is standard.

Torque these to spec, too. They have  lot of threads for medium loctite, and a wavey washer. These do a great job at keeping them from vibrating out. There's nothing to be bought by overstressing the bolt.

Hard to see in this pic but best I have unfortunately. 

[image: 31F81FC3-948E-49E9-8B85-676BB7612E0B.thumb.jpeg.3936d08575cf295388cc32fc60baf075.jpeg]

Mohawk, 4/28/2019 at 12:17 AM

When I added my custom High mount pipe, I forgot to spec a stand stop. So I bought some 4mm wall silicone hose cut a 2” length then slit it along one side. Slid it on to the right leg of the centre stand, whilst the bike was on the side stand, adjusted it in place to centre on the contact with the exhaust & cut a little away to fit around the stand cross bar. Once all adjusted, I cable tied it in place. Worked a treat ! 

Best, simplest idea yet. And it wouldn't have to hang a single thing on the 6 gen midpipe.

23 hours ago, HighSideNZ

Don't forget that the righthand centre stand bolt, looking from the rear towards the front, is a LEFTHAND thread.

There have been many, many that have been snapped off when trying to remove the stand!

5 GEN RIGHT SIDE CENTER STAND BOLT IS REGULAR RIGHT HAND THREAD

HighSideNZ - you are correct about 6 gen

8 GEN RIGHT SIDE CENTER STAND BOLT IS REVERSE LEFT HAND THREAD [Recent experience with dyno test bike]

sfdownhill, 1/4/2019 at 2:35 AM

...

I did ask him about ceramic coating the headers, and he strongly recommend not ceramic coating them, because the high heat retained by the coating beings a degradation process on the stainless steel He pointed out that the TBR headers show signs of having been run lean enough long enough to begin very slight damage. The surface of the headers have a light surface roughness and coloration because of being subjected to higher than optimum heat.

So, not to beat a dead horse here, but I guess I'm a little dubious of the total dismissal of ceramic. I'll admit, you'd be better off without than having a poor job done, so maybe he's protecting himself from poor workmanship from a 3rd party - which is understandable. With ceramic, like all coatings, there is a lot in proper application, and there are definitely some shady types in the business. 

The reputable shop in my area routinely coats headers both inside and out. A properly applied coating inside the header seems likely to make up the difference in retained heat and the potential to drop the external temperature of the headers by 600 degrees has got to be worth considering... that's a lot of heat that is now flowing out the pipes and no longer trapped inside your fairings! If nothing else, your R/R may thank you at the next red light you sit through!

Quote from Hotrod.com Note: Admittedly, probably not the most impartial source you could find, but if they were really trying to sell the snake oil, they would have managed to find some magical horsepower in there somewhere...

Quote

The coated headers measured 258 degrees F dropping to 195 degrees F a minute after shutdown. In contrast, the uncoated header measured a scalding 870 degrees, retaining 520 degrees a minute after shutdown. 

Take it for what it's worth (talk is cheap, comments on the internet are cheaper...) but if I decide I feel rich enough to spring for the headers, mine will probably get coated as well.

I don't have enough experience to know if the SS tube would be compromised by retaining higher temperatures, but it doesn't look like our headers could be completely coated on the inside.

12 hours ago, Marvelicious

The reputable shop in my area routinely coats headers both inside and out. A properly applied coating inside the header seems likely to make up the difference in retained heat and the potential to drop the external temperature of the headers by 600 degrees has got to be worth considering...

This is from Swaintech: http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/race-coating-descriptions/white-lightning-exhaust-coatings/

Quote

On naturally aspirated motors (non-turbo), we will typically coat the inside of headers as deep as possible. However, if we think the coating will interfere with the fit of the header to the motor or the header to the mating exhaust part, we will typically mask off those surfaces. Remember our coating is about .015” thick, not a thin paint. If there is masking you want to have done, be sure to let us know by marking this right on the part with a marker so we know what you want. If you want us to coat the inside of the part, let us know so we can process the part the way you want. We do not coat the inside of mufflers, catalytic converters or expansion chambers because they are not very accessible and there is very little coating that would bond to the inside of the parts.

The most critical step in getting a coating to achieve a tenacious bond to the base metal of an exhaust part is by applying a good abrasive blast on the part at about a 90° angle to the substrate. Simply put, there are few exhaust parts that are open and accessible enough to apply this type of blast. If a good blast cannot be obtained there is no possible way a permanent bond will be achieved. This is why we take the time to mask off the interior surfaces of turbo parts. For the small amount of area that a good bond can be achieved on, it is not worth taking the risk of coating the inside where the coating could come off and damage the turbo.

If you look at the spec sheet on Jet Hot's exhaust coating page it says the same thing: https://www.jet-hot.com/thermal-barrier/

Maybe there's another way to do it, but if the entire inside can't be internally coated, I'm not sure I want to take the risk of having these headers rot out like my current ones.
 

7 hours ago, Funkotron

Maybe there's another way to do it, but if the entire inside can't be internally coated, I'm not sure I want to take the risk of having these headers rot out like my current ones.
 

Cracking due to thermal fatigue would be the damage mechanism here... so they wouldn't rot the like mild steel pipes, but garbage nonetheless. Incidentally, 304 stainless is theoretically rated for 1600°F, though thermal fatigue is more prevalent when there is a large thermal gradient.

I know there are blasting nozzles that are designed for 360° use inside pipe, but I would be curious to understand their application methods before pulling the trigger.

(I feel like the clueless kid at the back of class)

Can I ask why?  Exactly why are we talking about exhaust coatings here in this forum thread? 

I have to know, is there a specific reason or concern or flaw (in these new stainless steel headers) that has caused the discussion to be re-directed onto the topic of header coatings?

What is your reasoning for coating the headers?

They are stainless steel and consider the oldest Gen 6's around with their standard pipes!

Still in one piece I'd expect.  Not like the older mild steel pipes that Honda should never have used.

8 hours ago, GreginDenver

(I feel like the clueless kid at the back of class)

Can I ask why?  Exactly why are we talking about exhaust coatings here in this forum thread? 

I have to know, is there a specific reason or concern or flaw (in these new stainless steel headers) that has caused the discussion to be re-directed onto the topic of header coatings?

Maybe someone wants to coat their exhaust for aesthetics? 

Or temperature mitigation.


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21 minutes ago, ScottieDucati

Or temperature mitigation.
 

That's why I researched it. I'm still trying to figure out why my bike runs so hot and what can be done about it.

I chimed in because I don't think you can properly ceramic coat these on the inside, so there's a potential risk compared to leaving the SS on its own (which we know will last).

9 minutes ago, Funkotron

That's why I researched it. I'm still trying to figure out why my bike runs so hot and what can be done about it.

I chimed in because I don't think you can properly ceramic coat these on the inside, so there's a potential risk compared to leaving the SS on its own (which we know will last).

I've been running Titanium exhaust wrap on my 99 catless header and have seen a significant improvement to bike temp. someone had mentioned earlier in this thread that you "shouldn't" wrap SS headers so I contacted the manufacturer of the titanium wrap and they said it won't cause any issues with a SS header.

43 minutes ago, ScottieDucati

Or temperature mitigation.


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For my purposes, it's entirely about heat management. These bikes, especially the 6th gen, are known to run on the hot side and have electrical issues. Since the radiators, R/R, electrical connections, etc... would all be happier in a cooler environment, the idea of keeping every bit of heat inside the pipe you can seems like a good one to me. I've considered getting my stock 6th gen header coated for just these reasons. 

Anyhow, it was mentioned earlier in the thread, but was recommended against by the fabricator. I'm sure he has his reasons, and from his point of view they are probably very good reasons. If I had put the work into a set of pipes that he obviously has here, I wouldn't be eager to recommend that Billy Bob cover them with goo he bought off the interweb. 

Anyhow, I apologize if this was perceived as a thread hijacking. I've said my piece and believe my reasoning to be sound.

Hey I mean if heat’s an issue just ride faster [image: emoji41.png]


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1 hour ago, ScottieDucati

Hey I mean if heat’s an issue just ride faster [image: emoji41.png]


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I've tried that, but those guys with the lights on top of their cars get really mad at me...

Here's a simple solution for the center stand stopper guys. All I did is I took one of the old header clamps (2nd pic), flattened it out and removed the threaded end of the clamp. I then dropped out the hole in the one end slightly bigger so I could place the OEM rubber stopper in the factory headers into the hole, then I simply just secured it to the center stand with hose clamps![image: 5925c802b08fc31088f14cc59f998962.jpg][image: fa3ca5541fb8aa19c8a9152e7cef554f.jpg][image: 9cf1d5c414bb726e1190894c9945a170.jpg][image: 071b3e84b2de5fe2396b94eb4febe966.jpg][image: 0a9f3fc0a58e537d3c7fc3567d0f7f15.jpg]

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10 minutes ago, Neo2122

Here's a simple solution for the center stand stopper guys. All I did is I took one of the old header clamps (2nd pic), flattened it out and removed the threaded end of the clamp. I then dropped out the hole in the one end slightly bigger so I could place the OEM rubber stopper in the factory headers into the hole, then I simply just secured it to the center stand with hose clamps![image: 5925c802b08fc31088f14cc59f998962.jpg][image: fa3ca5541fb8aa19c8a9152e7cef554f.jpg][image: 9cf1d5c414bb726e1190894c9945a170.jpg][image: 071b3e84b2de5fe2396b94eb4febe966.jpg][image: 0a9f3fc0a58e537d3c7fc3567d0f7f15.jpg]

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Note that we have just reached out to Sebspeed to see if he can make a more elegant solution, so if you're still wanting something more than a temporary solution, please stand by.

As for your your setup. The only concern I have is the rubber stop sitting directly against the mid-pipe. Have you tested it under normal riding conditions? Not sure how much heat transfers to the stop in the OEM condition but would imagine much less than with direct contact. Perhaps mounting the stop to the mid-pipe would alleviate any potential melting issues.

BTW, here is what I did last night and is what I had forwarded to Seb (via pictures). Hopefully I am on the right track but I'm sure Seb's talent could easily surpass mine!

[image: IMG_4774.thumb.jpeg.bd0799c8523f0af4cda99e7f2a450528.jpeg]

I added a little twist to the V&N solution and put a little bend in the vertical section to give it a little more strength. Pay no mind to the looks, I did this with simple hand tools and a small vice.

[image: 57837444954__7A32E1B6-E2CD-44DE-BA22-ADE1034DBBAF_2.thumb.jpg.f98a81412f82b4426572ff0ec25ed609.jpg]

For my template, I added a bigger section on the bottom so a hole could be added to use the OEM rubber stop. Let's see if Seb finds this viable or if he can improve on it or come up with something even better.

[image: IMG_4787.thumb.jpeg.be056579f8450372602ddb069ea32b0b.jpeg]

1 hour ago, Duc2V4

BTW, here is what I did last night and is what I had forwarded to Seb (via pictures). Hopefully I am on the right track but I'm sure Seb's talent could easily surpass mine!

[image: IMG_4774.thumb.jpeg.bd0799c8523f0af4cda99e7f2a450528.jpeg]

Does that push against the frame?  So it has a nice hard stop?

This might be a great solution. One more bend for rigidity, a bump stop, and it'd be pretty elegant.  Paint it black and I bet it just sort of disappears into the frame, visually. Nobody would pay attention who wasn't specifically looking for it.

This is a nice proof of concept/hand tool prototype. I love clever little things like this.

Will this interfer with the 3rd o2 sensor as MooseMoose fitting thread says it's all pretty close there

For even more performance, you could remove the centre stand?

Yes, a little jelous i dont have a set.

keef For even more performance, you could remove the centre stand?
Yes, a little jelous i dont have a set.

1 hour ago, boOZZIE

Will this interfer with the 3rd o2 sensor as MooseMoose fitting thread says it's all pretty close there

I cannot say for sure, as this was done on my 6 Gen which has 98-99 headers. That being said, I did not experience any interference on my bike.

2 hours ago, MooseMoose

Does that push against the frame?  So it has a nice hard stop?

This might be a great solution. One more bend for rigidity, a bump stop, and it'd be pretty elegant.  Paint it black and I bet it just sort of disappears into the frame, visually. Nobody would pay attention who wasn't specifically looking for it.

This is a nice proof of concept/hand tool prototype. I love clever little things like this.

It pushes up against the cush or engine, I'd have to take a closer look but yes, adding a bend and/or use thicker metal would provide more rigidity.

5 hours ago, boOZZIE

Will this interfer with the 3rd o2 sensor as MooseMoose fitting thread says it's all pretty close there

I doubt it. It's outside the end of the sensor.   I mean, I don't have it on my bike, but I'm 95% sure it can be made to clear and do its job just as it is.

3 hours ago, Duc2V4

It pushes up against the cush or engine, I'd have to take a closer look but yes, adding a bend and/or use thicker metal would provide more rigidity.

I'm not picking on your prototype. I do my fair share of brakeless sheet metal bending as well, and there's only so much you can do with a vice and a hammer. That one's a perfect proof of concept.

I was just sort of thinking as I typed.  Since it buts up against he case there it is going to have no problem rotating with just one mounting bolt is what I was thinking about. I don't know what Seb's shop has for brakes, though, but he's good enough at solving problems I'm confident he will come up with something that he can produce out of this.

1 hour ago, MooseMoose

I'm not picking on your prototype. I do my fair share of brakeless sheet metal bending as well, and there's only so much you can do with a vice and a hammer. That one's a perfect proof of concept.

I was just sort of thinking as I typed.  Since it buts up against he case there it is going to have no problem rotating with just one mounting bolt is what I was thinking about. I don't know what Seb's shop has for brakes, though, but he's good enough at solving problems I'm confident he will come up with something that he can produce out of this.

Good question, based on the Vance and Hines sample I saw, it just uses one bolt as well. When the stand is in the up position, it causes the stop to push into the engine case and when using the stand, tension on the bolt seems to keep it in place.

It the 20 years I have had that pipe and center stand stop it has never moved a centimeter. And my bike stays on the center stand.

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Guys, don't stress over this. I'm not challenging it at all. I just wanted to know how it worked.

Engineering wise, you can't put something on one mounting point and expect it to not rotate. You have to have two points, preferably with some spacing, to create the leverage necessary, and that one creates it by butting up against the case as the second point of contact.

That's all the question was.  Idle curiosity about a different design that solves this problem in an innovative way.

What are my rusty '98 headers made of?

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53 minutes ago, interceptor69

What are my rusty '98 headers made of?

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Garden variety mild steel 

Finally got around to installing the pipe. The front was pretty far off and misaligned. CornerCarver had to lay on the ground and push the front right with his foot while I worked it into place. 

[image: IMG_20190505_153912.jpg]

Haven’t got round to mine yet and will be a while as I’m basically ticking off several boxes (R/R, VFRness, Ohlins, Headers, Staintune, PC3 & solo tail box mount)... but I’d expect a fair bit of fiddling to get a proper header installed. Rubber mallet and 2x4s are your friends.


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1 hour ago, MiniCarver

Finally got around to installing the pipe. The front was pretty far off and misaligned. CornerCarver had to lay on the ground and push the front right with his foot while I worked it into place. 

[image: IMG_20190505_153912.jpg]

That's exactly the way the original Two Brothers pipes they were patterned off of fit.   Everyone should expect this.

Mine were like that, it wasn't a problem at all tho just put one pipe in and pulled the other into place

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16 hours ago, MooseMoose

That's exactly the way the original Two Brothers pipes they were patterned off of fit.   Everyone should expect this.

I knew it wasn't be an exact perfect fit. Just letting everyone know what I had to do to get it in place. If you're trying to install this by yourself be prepared to become a novice contortionist. 

36 minutes ago, MiniCarver

I knew it wasn't be an exact perfect fit. Just letting everyone know what I had to do to get it in place. If you're trying to install this by yourself be prepared to become a novice contortionist. 

To be fair, I've seen your watch band size and IIRC your header could also wear your watch...  :goofy:  

24 minutes ago, SEBSPEED

To be fair, I've seen your watch band size and IIRC your header could also wear your watch...  :goofy:  

Yep, right at the mid-pipe connection lol

Fitting headers is always a bit of a battle. Beats trying to do em on a V8 car though....


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14 minutes ago, MiniCarver

Yep, right at the mid-pipe connection lol

:laughing6-hehe:

This was my center stand stop solution. 

[image: IMG_20190506_213943.jpg]

[image: IMG_20190506_214007.jpg]

BTW, In regards to a center stand stop, Seb has agreed to look into it for us.

What size are the copper gaskets for the headers? 

I remember reading that it's recommended that we purchase a particular size of the copper gaskets from Delkevic.  I skimmed back through this forum thread but couldn't find the exact size in millimeters or a serial number or product SKU.

I ask this question because I thought the correct size was 42mm in copper.  I ordered a set of these gaskets (42mm size in copper) from Delkevic.  Today I was trying to install the header and discovered that on my '99 5th Gen VFR these 42mm copper gaskets do not fit.  When I try to press-fit these 42mm gaskets into the header ports the gaskets end up going "out of round" because the diameter of the gasket is just too large.

42mm.

Mine did that, too. They're exactly as large as they can be, and one was even  difficult to get in there, but they worked like a charm. I had to cram them into the ports, but the headers pushed them into place and I'm leak free, first try.

30 minutes ago, MooseMoose

42mm.

Mine did that, too. They're exactly as large as they can be, and one was even  difficult to get in there, but they worked like a charm. I had to cram them into the ports, but the headers pushed them into place and I'm leak free, first try.

Okay, I'm still in the garage right now, just finished a trial install of the headers, went ahead and used the 42mm copper gaskets because I figured that when I remove the headers tomorrow I'll be able to assess how well the gaskets seated themselves when they were pressed into the cylinder head seats by the headers.

My trial install went really well, I used several cargo straps as strong and consistent helpers to pull the headers in the directions I needed and then hold them steady while I guided the headers into the cylinder head seats.  This strategy worked like a charm, with cylinder number 1 and number 4 requiring the most persuasion.  I'm going to leave the header installed overnight then remove it to have a good look at the copper gaskets.

I live here in Denver, not far from Delkevic's address, might call them and drive over to get more gaskets.

I'm considering experimenting with 41mm gaskets, I don't know if I can accept the fact that the 42mm gaskets were bending "out of round" on part of their circumference when I was pressing them into the cylinder head ports.  When I remove the header tomorrow I'll know for sure.

You want the larger gaskets so the Inner Diameter when squished isn’t sticking out into the airflow.

I think you’re overthinking this.


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53 minutes ago, ScottieDucati

You want the larger gaskets so the Inner Diameter when squished isn’t sticking out into the airflow.

I think you’re overthinking this.


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As I mentioned I'm concerned about the part of the circumference where the 42mm copper gasket was bowing a bit out-of-round as I was using my fingers to press-fit the gasket into the cylinder head ports.

No, not overthinking here, I'm going to come to a decision on this purely from the evidence provided by visual confirmation tomorrow when I remove the exhaust system.  

I'll take some pictures of the gaskets in the ports tomorrow after I've removed the exhaust system.  We'll see if the bowing-out resulted in and area where there's only a thin bit of the gasket crushed under the header.  And we'll see how close to the inner edge of the cylinder head exhaust port the 42mm gasket comes after being crushed in the install process.

I've just finished removing the exhaust system from yesterday's trial-fitting.  Here are pictures of the installation crush results with the 42mm copper gaskets from Delkevic.  (NOTE: I didn't fully torque-to-spec on the rear cylinders so I believe the front cylinders (#2 and #4) are the best representation of the install results with the 42mm copper gaskets.  And, obviously, I wasn't watching closely when I was pressing the gaskets into the ports, otherwise I would have installed all of them with the seam facing inward which is what I intend to do for the final assembly)

Here is Cylinder #2:

[image: IMG_20190508_113422_zpssaw7arvj.jpg]

Here is Cylinder #4:

[image: IMG_20190508_113600_zpszn3zbew7.jpg]

Here is Cylinder #3:

[image: IMG_20190508_113655_zpseggk9nxf.jpg]

Here is Cylinder #1:

[image: IMG_20190508_113842_zpshwn8gmlo.jpg]

Now that I've seen the above-pictured results I've decided to change to the 41mm copper Delkevic-supplied gaskets.  I live in Denver, 11 miles away from Delkevic and Matt (at Delkevic) has told me (via email) that I can order and pay for them at their online store and then drive over to pick them up in person at Delkevic in Littleton, CO.

Just an opinion from the cheap seats... It looks to me like #2 would have sealed fine and #1 would have worked if it were torqued. #3 and #4 failed mostly because of the seams... 

Take a look at the fit in this post... 

It's your money, but after spending that kind of dough on a performance header, I'd really hesitate to create a restriction with an exhaust gasket!

Just my 2 cents... it always seems easier when you're not the guy on hands and knees cussing the parts that don't want to fit like you think they should.

Looks to me like 1 and 2 (with the seams properly facing in) would have been just fine. 4 is the oddball here, I swear my ports look a little different on the front, but I still think 4 would have been fine if properly placed.

SF and Duc have done several header installs with 42mm, I'm using 42mm, all successfully. Mine sealed on the first try and have been through a dozen heat cycles and 100 miles, still good.  SF tried multiple sizes and types before coming to the 42mm Delk recommendation.

That said, You do what you need on your bike. You're a good mechanic and I'll be interested in your results. Please post what happens with the 41mm.

Cylinder 1 looks as they should but not squished at all?


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2 minutes ago, ScottieDucati

Cylinder 1 looks as they should but not squished at all?


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4 hours ago, GreginDenver

(NOTE: I didn't fully torque-to-spec on the rear cylinders so I believe the front cylinders (#2 and #4) are the best representation

I think that was expected Scottie. Greg didn't torque the rear cylinders so they are just started, not fully seated at all.

I saw and realized it wasn’t torqued was just hoping for an indent!


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I don't know if the cylinder castings of all of the 5th & 6th Gen VFRs are the same, but if you look closely at my pictures of the exhaust ports (above) on my 5th Gen you'll see why I was more worried about the front cylinders than the rear cylinders. 

The gasket seats for the rear ports have a retaining wall all the way around their circumference, but for some reason Honda decided that the front ports would have a long stretch of the circumference without a retaining wall.  I was concerned about what would happen in this section.

As you can see in the pictures, I got what I'd describe as some pretty weird looking gasket deformation on every cylinder: 

On both Cylinder #2 & Cylinder #4 the section that lacks a retaining wall allowed the slightly oversized gasket to bulge outward under the force of installation, on Cylinder #1 the partial crush resulted in the gasket catching the retaining sidewall and uncurling against it (don't know how far this effect would have gone with a full install crush), on Cylinder #3 the partial crush of the gasket with the seam facing outward shows a lot of stress bending and buckling.

I just finished the final install of the header, it's midnight here in Denver but I went ahead and rolled the bike outdoors to run it.  The install is a success, no leaks, sounds great.  I let the bike idle up to about 170 degrees on the temp gauge then shut it down and pushed it back into its parking spot in my garage.

In the end I decided to use the 41mm copper gaskets from Delkevic.  They are just a little less than twice as fat as the 42mm copper gaskets that Delkevic sells.  Because they are fatter I knew that during the installation "crush" they would probably end up spreading inward to about the same inner diameter as the original Honda OEM gaskets.

I didn't like how much the OEM gasket protruded into the exhaust flow and wanted my install to be better than that, so I decided to experiment a little.

I purchased 8 of the 41mm copper gaskets directly from Delkevic at their location in Littleton, CO.  Got to meet and chat with Matt (at Delkevic), he was very friendly and helpful.  I modified the 41mm gaskets by "pre-pinching" them inward, only by a little bit around the outside perimeter and then by as much as possible around the inner perimeter.  I did this so that when the crush of the install occurred the gasket would have a smaller starting point from which to spread.

The results were pretty good.  I practiced installing a couple of my "pre-pinched" 41mm copper gaskets on the front cylinders and after the crush they ended up with an inner diameter that was noticeably wider than the original Honda gaskets (although they do protrude slightly above the inner edges of the exhaust ports).

So I'm satisfied, the modified 41mm gaskets provide a very good, generous footing for the end of the header to bed into and their inner diameter is better (wider) than the OEM gaskets. 

Good enough for me.  On to other maintenance items...

I wish you'd taken some "after" pics!  

Ciao,

JZH

5 hours ago, JZH

I wish you'd taken some "after" pics!  

Ciao,

JZH

Depending on what you mean by "after" I might be able to show you something.  So what do you mean?

[image: IMG_20190427_090132_zpsxdcrcneu.jpg]

[image: IMG_20190427_090344_zpsy1xompaa.jpg]

[image: IMG_20190510_091634_zpsh19xhyvz.jpg]

[image: IMG_20190510_091618_zps17gr2ix9.jpg]

[image: IMG_20190510_091601_zpsgeyxxkk3.jpg]

Greg, looks like we have the same slip on. Did the pipe diameter match without any problem?

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7 minutes ago, interceptor69

Greg, looks like we have the same slip on. Did the pipe diameter match without any problem?

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Not sure what you mean by "match." 

I can tell you that I noted a very slight difference in the diameter of the New Header mid-pipe exit.  The New Header exit is just a tiny bit larger than the original 5th Gen exit.

When I had my Vance&HinesS4 mounted on the original 5th Gen exhaust I was able to slip it onto the exit using the standard Honda OEM carbon+mesh gasket.  When I installed the new header I discovered that due to the New Exhaust's ever-so-slightly-larger exit there was no way to use the Honda OEM carbon+mesh gasket, there just wasn't enough room (the carbon+mesh gasket is pretty delicate so you can't force it into a space that's too small without destroying it).

So I ended up using a do-it-yourself custom sized wrap of high-temp aluminum tape (stuff that's good to about 700 degrees F).  I don't know if I'll stick with this solution, I had the aluminum tape available at the moment and I wanted to take the bike out on a ride to hear what the New Exhaust + Vance&HinesS4 combo sounded like.

Let me know how your install goes, and if you can think up something that's a better substitute for the Honda OEM carbon+mesh gasket.  

GreginDenver Not sure what you mean by "match." 
 
I can tell you that I noted a very slight difference in the diameter of the New Header mid-pipe exit.  The New Header exit is just a tiny bit larger than the original 5th Gen exit.
 
When I had my Vance&HinesS4 mounted on the original 5th Gen exhaust I was able to slip it onto the exit using the standard Honda OEM carbon+mesh gasket.  When I installed the new header I discovered that due to the New Exhaust's ever-so-slightly-larger exit there was no way to use the Honda OEM carbon+mesh gasket, there just wasn't enough room (the carbon+mesh gasket is pretty delicate so you can't force it into a space that's too small without destroying it).
 
So I ended up using a do-it-yourself custom sized wrap of high-temp aluminum tape (stuff that's good to about 700 degrees F).  I don't know if I'll stick with this solution, I had the aluminum tape available at the moment and I wanted to take the bike out on a ride to hear what the New Exhaust + Vance&HinesS4 combo sounded like.
 
Let me know how your install goes, and if you can think up something that's a better substitute for the Honda OEM carbon+mesh gasket.  

12 hours ago, GreginDenver

Depending on what you mean by "after" I might be able to show you something.  So what do you mean?

Unfortunately, I meant pics of the crushed 41mm copper gaskets, to show how they had expanded...

Ciao,

JZH

6 hours ago, JZH

Unfortunately, I meant pics of the crushed 41mm copper gaskets, to show how they had expanded...

Ciao,

JZH

Yeah, sorry, you know how it goes, when you've decided on the solution you're going to use it puts the finish line in sight and you start looking forward to test-riding the bike. 

I definitely preferred the results I got with the 41mm copper gaskets over what happened when I tested the 42mm copper gaskets. 

This is still very much a situation that's "in play", it may turn out that another New Header purchase forum member will come up with the discovery of a completely different gasket solution that would be better than the 41mm copper gaskets from Delkevic.  But at this point I firmly believe in the 41mm as the best solution I had available.

I was very impressed by how neat and easy it was to install my New Header.  I used a "spreader" type clamp to ease the header around the center stand crossbar (which is slightly smaller than the center stand leg), this worked great.  My New Header matched up to the exhaust ports just as others have described, so I used a couple of Thule Rack cargo straps to put some pull force on where I needed it, like having an extra pair of hands.

After spending the afternoon looking at ideas for a center stand stop (here and my own), and realizing they weren't suitable for me, I took inspiration from pics that Duc2V4 posted earlier.

[image: KIMG0906.thumb.JPG.6cfd95e3b3ffd4b6dbc40ac411485c16.JPG][image: KIMG0905.thumb.JPG.5d2e7284a246fc3f448896fa1fa083d4.JPG]

Made a mockup out of some perforated aluminum that's easy to bend/cut.  This is working and holding the center stand where I want it.  Now I need to use this template to cut/bend some thicker aluminum I have that's a somewhat bendable alloy.  Or I may just get some sheet steel from the local hardware store, might be easier to work with.  In no way will this look as good as the stuff many folks on this forum are capable of producing, but once finished and painted matte black, the piece should fade into the background and not be very noticeable.  I may also put a piece of rubber on the end where the stand makes contact, we'll see.  I need to make sure I put the hole for the bolt in the right spot to eliminate, or at least minimize, pivot movement.  Even with the slot, it's pretty solid now, but over time a slot wouldn't work.  One could get carried away and add an additional bend, drill a hole for the spring post, giving the piece another spot to jam up against.  For me, that's more work than I want to do, and my fabrication skills are minimal.  Maybe this helps, maybe it amuses, either way I felt the urge to post 😄.

ACE

sfdownhill, 1/1/2019 at 12:17 AM

Duc2V4 and I are looking for a set of used 6th gen performance slip-on midpipe/mufflers to purchase, borrow, or have donated for use dyno test/tuning the prototype new VFR800 performance header. Our test 6th gen has gutted OEM mid pipe/mufflers, and those won't flow enough exhaust gas to take best advantage of the new header.

A cosmetically damaged 6th gen slip-on would be great if fully functional. Any brand or model that is open flowing is fine; Two Brother Racing, Delkevic, Micron, Leo Vince, Akrapovic, Scorpion, Staintune, etc

We would prefer to accept a generous donation or loan and will pick up in southern California or pay for shipping [pay shipping both ways if the slipon is a loan], but we are willing to purchase.

WE ARE NOT PICKY. Thanks for considering this.

If it weren't prime riding weather, I might consider pulling the Leo's off and sending them in return for a slight discount on the header...😉

...but it's WAY too nice out to have the bike out of commission!

Neo2122, 4/28/2019 at 12:16 AM

Not every header is 100% the same mine had plenty of space to fit that center stand through that gap, just an FYI

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6 gen headers have had 5/8" cut off the collector exit, so it may very well be possible to slip the headers on over an installed center stand. The three-point fastening of the 6 gen muffler system won't fit correctly with the stock 5 gen collector length. If you've ever wrestled a set of 6 gen mufflers onto a set of 98/99 OEM headers, you know exactly what I'm describing.

RC51Nick, 4/26/2019 at 9:24 PM

Lance,

Please let me know when the next batch of 5th and 6th gens are geared up to be made. I'm def ready to pull the trigger for the 2nd run of these.  Real curious to hear feedback from the guys running Staintunes on the 6th gen and how much of an issue it was getting the slipon midpipe to connect to the header (i.e. enlraging the end) Big thanks for getting these made.

Nick

Hey Nick - sounds good. Sorry to have taken so long to reply - I've been neglectful due to needing to get caught up with the day job and real life.

A few guys have placed deposits on 5/6 gen headers for the 3rd production run, so that will be the next undertaking after the 8 gens get finished.

MiniCarver, 5/1/2019 at 6:15 AM

Maybe someone wants to coat their exhaust for aesthetics? 

Yep, that's originally why I wanted to coat them. Vanity. Pure vanity.

Marvelicious, 4/29/2019 at 8:44 PM

The reputable shop in my area routinely coats headers both inside and out. A properly applied coating inside the header seems likely to make up the difference in retained heat and the potential to drop the external temperature of the headers by 600 degrees has got to be worth considering... that's a lot of heat that is now flowing out the pipes and no longer trapped inside your fairings! If nothing else, your R/R may thank you at the next red light you sit through!

And that is the rub - a question that was brought up is "How does a professional applicator effectively coat the insides of multiple, connected bendy tubes?"

Answer: A coating company Duc2V4 told me about [Thank you Duc2V4] has devised a simple method of coating the inside of headers. This is so simple and of such quality that at first I thought the idea must have come from Mohawk. They plug the ends of the headers and pour the tubes full of the same ceramic coating that they apply to the tops of pistons, then they pour out the excess material before curing the headers.

And yes, standard ceramic coating on the outside of headers is thin...so thin that it is described as mechanically delicate [scratches easily]. The coating place also explained that different colors of the same ceramic coating product have different mechanical strengths - silver is toughest and most scratch resistant, black is weakest and scratches easiest, titanium [the color, not the metal] is somewhere in between, but closer to silver in strength.

Here are a few notes spawned by MooseMoose's awesome, informative, and more than a little amusing installation thread. If you purchased headers, or think you might, or think you might ever install a set of any headers in your life, you can find MooseMoose's thread here:

And this is a bit of extension/extrapolation on his findings:

+1, +2, +3 on all the compliments for MooseMoose's detailed documentation of his header install odyssey! Great work, and thanks to him for all the extra time he put into sharing so much pertinent information with the community.

Here are a couple observations/additions that occurred while reading his thread:

- Header stud nuts, torque, and anti-seize

Confirmed: 9ft-lbs is more than enough to hold things together ESPECIALLY if using anti-seize. I bent flanges on the prototype headers when I used anti-seize and torqued the nuts to 9 ft-lbs. I suspect that at 9ft-lbs, the lubrication component of the anti-seize allows greater force to be exerted than 9ft-lbs on 'dry' threads with no anti-seize. I have chosen to wipe the anti-seize from the studs' threads on the 4 VFRs I've been using for the header project. I say 'wipe off' because I just remove what will come off with a rag and do not clean with any cleaner or solvent. Who knows, there might be enough residual a-seize left to do just enough good.

CAUTION 6 GEN OWNERS: in the list of torque values on page 2-3 of the 6 gen service manual, Honda states 'exhaust pipe flange nut' 15 ft-lbs. This is NOT the nut NOR the torque value of the header stud nuts we use to hold our headers to our heads. That sounded weird, but this problem with Japanese-to-English translation has caused one owner of new headers to overtorque the header stud nuts. Thankfully, no damage occurred.

Honda calls the header stud nuts 'Special Nuts', which sounds like a breakfast cereal one would eat while listening to MooseMoose's fictional band 'Overtorqued Nuts'. [Actually Honda calls them 'exhaust pipe joint special nuts' and specifies their torque value at the aforementioned 9ft-lbs]

Later in section 2 of the 6 gen manual the exhaust component torque values shown on the drawings are correct.

Be patient with the special nuts. As MooseMoose suggests, make circuits around all the nuts starting when they are all just finger tight. I've had 9-10 shots at removing and installing headers recently, and this procedure works best for me:

Once all 8 nuts are finger tight using a socket on extensions but no wrench, go through all 8 nuts in a circuit around the bike, adding 1/2 turn of tension. This takes a fair amount of time, but keeps all the exhaust components gently easing together into their happiest states. As soon as a  1/2 turn begins to require more tension - this will happen on one or two nuts before it happens on the others - switch to the torque wrench and set it at 5 ft-lbs. Go around another circuit of all 8 nuts, adding another 1/2 turn only where necessary until all 8 nuts reach 5 ft-lbs. Change the torque wrench setting to 6 ft-lbs and go around again, taking each nut up to 6 ft-lbs. Change the wrench's setting to 7 ft-lbs, rinse and repeat. On both 5 gen test bikes, going from 7 ft-lbs to 8 ft-lbs required only a tiny bit of wrench rotation, and going from 8 ft-lbs to 9 didn't produce any movement at all - I believe this is because the nuts were tight enough at 8 ft-lbs, and probably would have been safely secure at 7 ft-lbs. On the 8 gen test bike, the nuts stopped moving at 8 ft-lbs instead of 7 ft-lbs. Wade laughs at me when I crawl around the perimeter of a VFR with a torque wrench, carefully setting each nut. He says "Just tighten 'em until they stop crushing the gasket!". I guess with as much experience as he has, he can confidently 'feel' when the gasket stops crushing. I've chosen to stay with the torque wrench...it is my friend. 

Marvelicious, 5/11/2019 at 7:32 PM

If it weren't prime riding weather, I might consider pulling the Leo's off and sending them in return for a slight discount on the header...😉

...but it's WAY too nice out to have the bike out of commission! 

Thanks! It's super cool of you to consider loaning us a set of pipes as nice as your Leos. We did manage to get the 6 gen onto the dyno, and the associated muffler project was a trip which will be detailed in a separate thread soon.

carlgustav, 5/11/2019 at 5:33 PM

Made a mockup out of some perforated aluminum that's easy to bend/cut. 

Man, the folks on this forum come up with some of the coolest ideas! carlgustav, that perf metal is brilliant for prototyping - bends as easy as cardboard, but stays bent.

2 minutes ago, sfdownhill

Thanks! It's super cool of you to consider loaning us a set of pipes as nice as your Leos. We did manage to get the 6 gen onto the dyno, and the associated muffler project was a trip which will be detailed in a separate thread soon.

Well... It wouldn't have been entirely altruistic... I would have been insisting on cutting in line for a header to come back with the pipe... It just would have been a good excuse to not put it off! 

14 hours ago, sfdownhill

Man, the folks on this forum come up with some of the coolest ideas! carlgustav, that perf metal is brilliant for prototyping - bends as easy as cardboard, but stays bent.

Thx. I got the stuff to make a front brake res. mount for my R6, and to experiment with. The mount doesn't look great but it works, and track bikes occasionally fall down reducing good looks anyway. A caveat, for tight bends like 90, you get about one bend, as flexing this stuff will soon tear it.

Random thoughts. Whatever material I end up using on this side needs to be strong enough to handle repeated bashing by the center stand, I don't think 1/16" sheet alum, or even mild steel, will work.
Stronger material, looking at 1/8", is thicker, so the bolt sits out farther than designed. I wonder if strength is reduced too much with respect to the strain this bolt normally 'sees'?
The stand curves outward, so a slight dual bend in the piece to compensate is indicated, but is not easy to create. Without fab shop tools and skills, this is a tedious process for something so minor.

:biggrin:

ACE

Gentleman... I have a complete Remus Slip on and a Complete Leo Vince Slip On for 6th gen bikes if they are needed for testing purposes.

They are not currently being used on a bike and can be loaned for an extended period of time for testing and fitment.

Please let me know 

Dennis

I'm following now!  Nice job to all those involved in prototyping, testing and production!   Looks like I'm just in time for the 3rd (or 2nd?) 5/6 Gen batch run.  What is the timing for these to complete and ship and what is the deadline for the deposits?    Still wrapping my head around the cost and whatever else is needed for completing it.   Is the general consensus to go with no 02 sensors and a PC3?  What happens if I just do the headers for now without 02 sensors and do the PC3 later down the road?  Will I need a dyno run to dial it in?  Sorry for the dumb questions but I've never used an aftermarket fueling module or tuning a FI bike.   I'm mostly a carb guy. 

1 hour ago, urdrvideo

Gentleman... I have a complete Remus Slip on and a Complete Leo Vince Slip On for 6th gen bikes if they are needed for testing purposes.

They are not currently being used on a bike and can be loaned for an extended period of time for testing and fitment.

Please let me know 

Dennis

Thanks for the generous offer, Dennis. We were able to put together a 6 gen slipon muffler assembly and test the headers with it. I bet your pipes sound better, though.

23 minutes ago, eyrwbvfr

I'm following now!  Nice job to all those involved in prototyping, testing and production!   Looks like I'm just in time for the 3rd (or 2nd?) 5/6 Gen batch run.  What is the timing for these to complete and ship and what is the deadline for the deposits?    Still wrapping my head around the cost and whatever else is needed for completing it.   Is the general consensus to go with no 02 sensors and a PC3?  What happens if I just do the headers for now without 02 sensors and do the PC3 later down the road?  Will I need a dyno run to dial it in?  Sorry for the dumb questions but I've used an aftermarket fueling module or tuning a FI bike.   I'm mostly a carb guy. 

Hi eyrwbvfr - I've recently changed my subjective preference from new headers with no bungs and PC3 on a 2000-2001 VFR to one bung in the collector exit and PC3. I changed my mind when Jozef - the dyno tech at Attack Performance - was pleased to find an 18mm bung in the collector exit of the 8 gen test headers. He gets more accurate readings from his Bosch wide band sensor inserted into a bung in the collector exit than he does with a 'sniffer' inserted down the tailpipe.

A number of VFRD and VFRW members with 2000-2001s are getting good results with PC3, and some are happy with Rapid Bike fuel management systems. You may have read other posts in this thread that document the problems the 2000-2001s have with PCV - stay away from that device. An option would be to plan on headers with one bung for dyno tuning and obtain Dynojet O2 Optimizers to plug into your VFR's wire harness where the O2 sensors used to connect. There is a dyno chart earlier in this thread that has three graphs that pertain to your question: one graph line for baseline stock 5 gen, one with the headers installed but a zero map on the PC3 [zero map means the PC3 makes no changes to OEM fueling], and the third graph on the chart representing the headers with a custom tune done on the PC3.

The timing for the next production run of 5/6 gen headers depends on when we gather an order for 15 units or more. A rough estimate for delivery of the next group of 5/6 gen headers is 10 weeks from now.

[image: 20190519_171630.thumb.jpg.a3e6f75f9c1d1c10dce02b7b18e3174d.jpg]Finally put on exhaust on easy peasy the weight diffference is 3 pounds lighter than my delkevic. The delkevic header is powder coated the two brother exhaust is also for sale one dummy can. I might sell a leo vince beautiful bends no mufflers. I will weigh the stock header its in the attic thats for sale and so is a plethora of Vfr750f parts ie whole bike 86 some 93 also 8 spoke sold.

[image: 20190519_111803.jpg]

[image: 20190519_173510.jpg]

[image: 20160517_163158.jpg]

[image: 20190519_171630.jpg]

Does anyone know of this new header fits the RC45?

Technically the architecture is same but I believe the cam chain is in a different place (so maybe exhaust ports are too far out of alignment to match. 

I know HighSideNZ (Phil) fitted an RC45 header to his 5th gen engine but the archived thread mentions lots of welding and bending. 

Stray

Stray

The engine casting as the same between the RC45 and Gen 5 as far as what concerns header fitment.

My Shark RC45 headers fitted up without issues.

I modded them to allow use of the centre stand and to change the exit from left to right to suit me Gen 6 and the LeoVince cans I have.

Phil

Hi Guys

Any update on the Gen 8 headers please?

Cheers

Phil

If I may, could we also please get an update regarding an additional run of 5th / 6th gen headers?  Thank you.

^ +1

Hey guys, Sfdownhill has been AFK but I did reach out to him via text message to let him know there are inquiries, since he has been dealing with Wade, he would be the one to answer your questions.

Thanks Duc2V4 for flagging to sfdownhill; we can all appreciate he’s got his three rings full (while at the same time desperately waiting to see the 8th gens in the flesh!). 

Hey guys. Another week has gone by and still no word on progress on the 8th Gen headers.

Any chance that this can be followed up please!

Thanks

Phil

Last I heard, more buyers were needed to make the 8g system happen.

Now, I'm wondering how many buyers they have for the next run of 5th gen. headers.  I'm on the fence for them.  I'm riding my bike now and not sure about wanting to take it apart again.  Maybe, it'll be a winter project if they make more later..

My set might sit on the shelf for this season.... just didn’t want to miss out! First time in a decade someone actually pulled something like this off!


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HighSideNZ, 6/9/2019 at 3:24 AM

Hey guys. Another week has gone by and still no word on progress on the 8th Gen headers.

Any chance that this can be followed up please!

Thanks

Phil

Phil, sorry for the delay. I spoke with SFDownhill and he's been wrapped up with "Life" stuff (non moto related) but in short, what Seb said. We need a few more orders in order to make the minimum that Wade needs to order his parts and reach the tube benders minimum. Unless someone has PM'd SF directly, the last count I had for 8 Gens was 3, that is 12 shy of the minimum. SF and I discussed posting on other VFR or even generic moto related forums. If you know of any other forums or are part of one that are local to your region, perhaps post a link to this page to see if we can drive the numbers up.

NOTE: This also applies to 5/6 Gen pipes as well. If anyone is interested in either, perhaps you can convince your friends, whether on the forum or not, to invest in a set.

Hi Duc2V4

Thanks for the update.

Sorry, I thought there were more deposits than that seeing they had gone ahead with the prototype.

57 minutes ago, HighSideNZ

Hi Duc2V4

Thanks for the update.

Sorry, I thought there were more deposits than that seeing they had gone ahead with the prototype.

I believe Wade wanted to do the prototype while he had an 8 Gen available and while it was fresh in his head on how he wanted to build it, unfortunately we are still shy a few orders. 😞 

I might be a +1 to the 3 you count, Duc2V4 - I had PM'd interest and a deposit to SFDownhill back in April. I, too, thought there were more punters on board than just a handful. Disappointing. Let's put out the siren call everyone!

3 hours ago, Duc2V4

I believe Wade wanted to do the prototype while he had an 8 Gen available and while it was fresh in his head on how he wanted to build it, unfortunately we are still shy a few orders. 😞 

Do we know if 8th gen headers will be compatible with 5th / 6th gens?  I might be in for a set of so.  Otherwise I'd be holding out for a 5/6 set.   Or,  possibly are they similar enough that he would run a batch if the 5/6 and 8 orders together  totaled 15?

2 hours ago, Cogswell

Do we know if 8th gen headers will be compatible with 5th / 6th gens?  I might be in for a set of so.  Otherwise I'd be holding out for a 5/6 set.   Or,  possibly are they similar enough that he would run a batch if the 5/6 and 8 orders together  totaled 15?

I was just thinking the same thing.

If we only have a handful of 8g and handful of 5/6g , could we combine for the next run.

Maybe when sfdownhill is back we'll see what the numbers are, ie. as to how many have or are ready to pay deposits.

14 hours ago, Cogswell

Do we know if 8th gen headers will be compatible with 5th / 6th gens?  I might be in for a set of so.  Otherwise I'd be holding out for a 5/6 set.   Or,  possibly are they similar enough that he would run a batch if the 5/6 and 8 orders together  totaled 15?

11 hours ago, boOZZIE

I was just thinking the same thing.

If we only have a handful of 8g and handful of 5/6g , could we combine for the next run.

Maybe when sfdownhill is back we'll see what the numbers are, ie. as to how many have or are ready to pay deposits.

My recollection is that there was a little more modification needed to the 8 Gen pipes than the two front down pipes. The rears have a tighter fit and get close to the rear brake hose with the 5/6 Gen tubes, so probably not a direct swap. I do not recall however what Wade had to do but SF did tell me they both had a little frustration with how Honda put together the rear, more specifically, the rear sets and how they are installed /removed. Anyway, I'm also a bit busy with work (thankfully) but I'm hoping we can get time to try and get more takers so we can get the 8 Gen owners their sets as well as another run of 5/6 Gen sets.

Cheers

I would be interested in 6th gen depending on price! Message bme directly with details please and thank you 😊

I'm still in for a 5th gen set.

Ciao,

JZH

Is there anyone with a 6th gen that already got the pipes installed and then got a custom dyno tune?

I'm looking to get a PCV but curious if anyone would be willing to share the custom map or "sell" a copy of it lol

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I just test rode CornerCarver’s ‘98 with Wolf undertail mufflers, and Hooooly Smoookes! Wow! He’s running it with a PCII serial that hasn’t changed the map since he bought the bike. It’ll pull from 3k if you want it to, and run out all they way to redline without any dips or flat spots. 

BuzznerSuntrusts I just test rode CornerCarver’s ‘98 with Wolf undertail mufflers, and Hooooly Smoookes! Wow! He’s running it with a PCII serial that hasn’t changed the map since he bought the bike. It’ll pull from 3k if you want it to, and run out all they way to redline without any dips or flat spots. 

44 minutes ago, Sweeper

Glad to hear that bike is getting some lovin’!


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I like it better than the supercharged 6th Gen. 

Ok, I am definitely in for the next round of 5th Gen headers. I dropped my header to install a new rear shock last night and discovered that my factory header is already a mess. I just sandblasted and painted with VHT Flameproof header paint and clearcoat last year.... what a disappointment. The coating is failing on all fronts... some places rusting through already, some places just flaking off completely, and the 'clean' areas without defects look like shit anyway. 

Off to read about where to send my deposit.... I hope we can get enough folks for Wade to produce another run. 

I may be in for a 5G set too...

20 hours ago, vfrcapn

I may be in for a 5G set too...

This may bring us to around 8 or 9 for the 5/6 version.  Not far to go for a batch, but we'd need a formal count kept to be sure.  I seem to recall mention that "a few" had put deposits in on the 2nd batch, so hard to tell for sure where that's at.  One thing looks fairly certain - if a 2nd batch does happen, there probably won't be any more, so get 'em while you can. 

32 minutes ago, Cogswell

This may bring us to around 8 or 9 for the 5/6 version.  Not far to go for a batch, but we'd need a formal count kept to be sure.  I seem to recall mention that "a few" had put deposits in on the 2nd batch, so hard to tell for sure where that's at.  One thing looks fairly certain - if a 2nd batch does happen, there probably won't be any more, so get 'em while you can. 

So SF spoke with Wade and he’s trying to convince him to mix the 2 batches, 5/6 and 8 Gens. Trouble is Wade really wants to do one Gen batch at a time at 15 per, but since the 8 Gen number is so low, if we wait for 15, it looks like it would be a while. IF, and that is a BIG IF, we can get a mixed batch of 15, perhaps we can persuade Wade to do a mix batch. I know SF is away this weekend and will be away again most of next week but I’ll see if I can get an official count from him and post it up but in the mean time let’s put the word out and see if we can get 15 per Gen order! Or just 15 total...that would be nice too.

If the 8th Gen number of orders is only 3 or 4, then I'm fairly certain they are all custom jobs. Seems like no 8th Gen riders are actually interested...?

They seem like a group that is really satisfied with slip ons and their superior charging systems...😆 :beer:

5 hours ago, BuzznerSuntrusts

If the 8th Gen number of orders is only 3 or 4, then I'm fairly certain they are all custom jobs. Seems like no 8th Gen riders are actually interested...?

They seem like a group that is really satisfied with slip ons and their superior charging systems...😆 :beer:

At least 3 of those 8g headers are for 5th/6th gen bikes because we want the splayed front tubes to accommodate a low mounted front radiator. To me it makes more sense to batch these with the 5/6 header run. 

I owe an update on centerstand stops. I've been busy bouncing around other jobs in my shop but I will get to them!

1 hour ago, SEBSPEED

At least 3 of those 8g headers are for 5th/6th gen bikes because we want the splayed front tubes to accommodate a low mounted front radiator. To me it makes more sense to batch these with the 5/6 header run. 

I think that is what HighSideNZ is looking for as well.

4 hours ago, BuzznerSuntrusts

I think that is what HighSideNZ is looking for as well.

Has it been confirmed that the splayed 8th gen tubes will clear 6th gen bodywork?  My gut reaction is that they should ,  but it would be a major bummer to have them and find out otherwise.  

15 hours ago, Cogswell

Has it been confirmed that the splayed 8th gen tubes will clear 6th gen bodywork?  My gut reaction is that they should ,  but it would be a major bummer to have them and find out otherwise.  

I'm 99% sure the oem 8g  front pipes will clear, based on studying pictures and judging where the pipes are in relation to the motor.

It remains to be seen if Wade's pipes will leave enough clearance. I do have a plan A and B roughed out, just in case.

I currently have a set of Shark RC45 headers on my Gen 6 so if they clear the body work then the 8th Gen pipe should be a shoe in.

Remember that the 8th Gen does not have side rads so the body work is more narrow than a 6th Gen from the start.

What I'm after is to get the headers merging correctly for the 180 deg crank as my current pipes merge both fronts together and both rears together.

Not a biggie but it would be better for mid range if they merged correctly I feel.

I'm with SEB. It would be pretty easy I expect to run these splayed front pipes in with the 6th Gen batch.

Phil

Probably best off to see/beg/bribe 😉 sfdownhill  to test fit the 8g pipes to 6g as there were also some differences with the rear downpipes 

I must be that "1" 8th gen guy y'all speak of. Hope we can come up with a plan to get the next run done. 

I know these things are a pain and a lot of work/time to put together. The effort  is outstanding .

Thanks to everyone trying to come up with a solution.

Just finished bike for road america front right header melted plastic.  Incorrectly bent.  Disappointed

[image: 20190628_133137_Film3.jpg]

VFR750F3 Just finished bike for road america front right header melted plastic.  Incorrectly bent.  Disappointed
[image: 20190628_133137_Film3.thumb.jpg.49ded63c6afd15b57bd17d4c68b5808f.jpg]

2 hours ago, VFR750F3

Just finished bike for road america front right header melted plastic.  Incorrectly bent.  Disappointed

[image: 20190628_133137_Film3.jpg]

 Yeah, you're probably right; those headers are rubbish. I'll give you five bucks for them.

Not completely rubbish i can pop clutchless wheelies now.

You sure I can't tempt you? I mean, it melted your little plastic doofer and everything. Five bucks and a packet of Cheetos, that's my final offer.

^^^ What he said. They are performance headers NOT OEM replacements, there may be minor clearance issues. 

I’ve never looked closely at an 8th gen fairing lower V, but I’m stunned by your picture & how big those holes are, Honda must have no faith in their own exhaust manufacturing now, if you compare those with the pipe cooling holes on 5/6th gens !

What’s a little melted plastic when you get such benefits !?

YCMV. ( your clearance may vary !)

7 hours ago, Mohawk

^^^ What he said. They are performance headers NOT OEM replacements, there may be minor clearance issues. 

I’ve never looked closely at an 8th gen fairing lower V, but I’m stunned by your picture & how big those holes are, Honda must have no faith in their own exhaust manufacturing now, if you compare those with the pipe cooling holes on 5/6th gens !

What’s a little melted plastic when you get such benefits !?

YCMV. ( your clearance may vary !)

Pretty sure he's got a 5/6 - 8th has radiator down there and therefore larger holes in the vee, to allow air flow

There has been a lot of activity since I was last staying up with events on this thread - all good stuff, even the teething problems. I sincerely apologize to everyone here for being off the reservation. I am currently in the high Colorado mountains and clinging to a one-bar signal that literally blows away when the wind moves. I will be back on reliable internet Monday and will thoroughly flesh out the points below.

 I have not been idle...Wade and I have been talking regularly about:

(1) plans to finish the production run of 8 gen headers and sell from stock without waiting for 15 deposited orders. Wade is considering this.

(2) modifying his jigs to move cylinder #1 primary 1/4” to the right, as there is slight interference with the center stand at the bottom of its arc. This occurs on my bike and the 8 gen w prototype headers, perhaps others?[image: imageproxy.php?img=&key=2f13eb558190e64dcf425edcc36f26045780]

(3) gearing up further to do another run of 5/6 gen headers.

On 5 and 6 gens cylinder 4 (front right) clearance with the inner half ‘chin’ cowl is a problem. The TBR headers get very very close at this point, and our production headers touch the chin cowl. Here are the TBR installed on a 5 gen:

[image: BDBF9D83-1F23-49F1-9A33-073937D9FDFE.jpeg.bd9d8e3444894358863a966b9fbc59db.jpeg]

On my 5 gen heating the chin cowl with a heat gun and flexing it forward where the headers touch provided enough clearance to avoid melting plastic. The blue tape is how I marked the area to heat and flex:

[image: 31043DB5-274B-419C-BC48-7E09263453C3.jpeg.6a034622024e9c32ee91cbb98b6660d4.jpeg]

I just found out this internet connection can’t handle full res photos, so I’ll reduce the image sizes and insert then into this post as an edit later today.

More to follow.

vfrcapn, 6/21/2019 at 9:59 PM

I may be in for a 5G set too...

So, SFDownhill hooked me up with a Wolf exhaust and my thinking was it wouldn't mate to my TBros header so I'd need a stock or equivalent header replacement. No oem fitting pipe I ever tried would work with the TBros header outlet that is angled to work only with their mid-pipe.

But, with just a little fiddling, the two-piece Wolf pipe allowed me to get everything turned and lined up with the TBros.  :beer:

Long story short, I probably won't be in for one of the new headers but I'll keep an eye on developments in case a new 5G batch gets going.

[image: wolf.jpg.179e027b0779b313cc6a3fec08195ee0.jpg]

Many thanks to SFDownhill for the Wolf, it is literally like new and sounds great.

21 hours ago, SEBSPEED

Pretty sure he's got a 5/6 - 8th has radiator down there and therefore larger holes in the vee, to allow air flow

Doh, sorry I never looked past the plastic & exhaust, I’ll blame it on target fixation !   So same applies to 6th gen then. But being a long production model, then no worries, just buy a spare bit of plastic & be happy 😉

VFR750F3, 6/28/2019 at 6:15 PM

Not completely rubbish i can pop clutchless wheelies now.

That's the spirit, i'd take my little bit melted v-dam with these performance headers over a stock header with clean v-dam any day.

15 hours ago, vfrcapn

So, SFDownhill hooked me up with a Wolf exhaust and my thinking was it wouldn't mate to my TBros header so I'd need a stock or equivalent header replacement. No oem fitting pipe I ever tried would work with the TBros header outlet that is angled to work only with their mid-pipe.

But, with just a little fiddling, the two-piece Wolf pipe allowed me to get everything turned and lined up with the TBros.  :beer:

Long story short, I probably won't be in for one of the new headers but I'll keep an eye on developments in case a new 5G batch gets going.

[image: wolf.jpg.179e027b0779b313cc6a3fec08195ee0.jpg]

Many thanks to SFDownhill for the Wolf, it is literally like new and sounds great.

Looks great capn. I never got to hear the Wolf with the new packing installed and quiet inserts removed - I bet with the TBR headers it is schweeet!

Getting to have a listen to your bike is another reason for us to get out on a ride together.

I've put my deposit for a set of 5th gen headers!   Took plunge and will set aside for this winter project, along with upgraded suspension.     How many is this now on the 5g header list?

How about we just make an updated list and everyone who deposited just fill it out. Copy and paste and pass it on.

1. eyrwbvfr

2.

3.

4.

5.

6. 

7.

8.

9.

10.

52 minutes ago, eyrwbvfr

I've put my deposit for a set of 5th gen headers!   Took plunge and will set aside for this winter project, along with upgraded suspension.     How many is this now on the 5g header list?

How about we just make an updated list and everyone who deposited just fill it out. Copy and paste and pass it on.

1. eyrwbvfr

2. adkfinn

3.

4.

5.

6. 

7.

8.

9.

10.

What can i say i was just pointing out the obvious. I am vey happy with the header nevertheless i have purchased several headers for my other motorcycles  kerker, akra and hindle and never had clearance issues. I applaud the commitment to get the header into production and to rectify the issue in other runs. I just don't understand the snide comments.

I don't recall anyone jumping all over the guy who was aggravated over the exhaust gasket size.

2 hours ago, VFR750F3

What can i say i was just pointing out the obvious. I am vey happy with the header nevertheless i have purchased several headers for my other motorcycles  kerker, akra and hindle and never had clearance issues. I applaud the commitment to get the header into production and to rectify the issue in other runs. I just don't understand the snide comments.

I don't recall anyone jumping all over the guy who was aggravated over the exhaust gasket size.

I don't think anyone meant to come across as too harsh, mostly just having a poke. I think most people consider this small batch replica header to be a different animal than a production piece, hence the different expectations. The 'other guy' actually took way more guff in another thread, but you both seem to have weathered it just fine. If we all agreed all the time this place would be pretty boring. 

As others have already said, I like the "new header" enough that I'm willing to live with a little inconvenience.  Here are pictures of my work to provide clearance for the header from the #4 cylinder.

I imitated sfdownhill's solution to the problem, I used a heat gun to soften up the plastic so it could be re-formed with an outward bend that gives the #4 cylinder's header about the same amount of clearance as the #2 cylinder's header pipe.

[image: IMG_20190708_140106_zpsyhsip0n0.jpg]

[image: IMG_20190708_140115_zpsryordtmb.jpg]

[image: IMG_20190708_140125_zpsqoqvvkdw.jpg]

[image: IMG_20190708_140231_zpsnxtklcfg.jpg]

Installed on the bike you can see that I've managed to achieve the same amount of fairing-to-header pipe clearance on both the #4 and #2 headers.

[image: IMG_20190708_151121_zps34kfruv5.jpg]

[image: IMG_20190708_151257_zpsthueynzq.jpg]

I happened to have some high temperature heat reflecting tape on hand so I added it to the work I did.  I figured why not, regardless of whether the situation really needed this amount of protection

[image: IMG_20190708_140157_zpsz3a9f3o6.jpg]

Maybe I got a little carried away with the heat reflective taping...

[image: IMG_20190708_140212_zpsmlnnzwrw.jpg]

Good solution, but any reason not to just dremel out the sides of both openings ("speed holes") a little wider to allow the clearance and have a visual match?  Seems to me it may look better than bent plastic. 

Trying to save up the $ myself for a set for my 6g...

4 hours ago, rhoderage

Good solution, but any reason not to just dremel out the sides of both openings ("speed holes") a little wider to allow the clearance and have a visual match?  Seems to me it may look better than bent plastic. 

Trying to save up the $ myself for a set for my 6g...

I didn't want to cut away material. 

I gave some consideration to going the Dremel route but decided to keep all of the original strength that the fairing chin insert had.  I just wasn't in the right mood to start cutting on things (in the past I've done a lot of Dremel modifications to motorcycles, but so far I haven't done any to either of my 5th Gens, maybe that was a factor in today's choice).

My opinion on the Dremel vs. heat-bending situation is that neither solution will leave the chin insert "speed holes" looking as good as they did in their OEM profile.  So definitely go with your personal preference.  Either way the fairing chin insert isn't something I notice when I look at a VFR, it's pretty much out of view from almost any angle.

And if someone does notice the bent area it'll give me the perfect opportunity to bore the pants off them by telling all about my totally bitchin' stainless steel performance exhaust system.

Would bigger speed holes help your heat issues?

I just took a box cutter to it and was done in 60 seconds, looks just fine and it's not like anyone will be looking there anyway lol[image: 3a4fee5f6ed52dc1616f7644c7aa5e83.jpg][image: 8d634806ee479d1e496ae28672c5394e.jpg]

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

With all the talk of the one 5th gen pipe interference with the fairing cover, will it or can it be corrected in the next production batch run?

12 hours ago, eyrwbvfr

With all the talk of the one 5th gen pipe interference with the fairing cover, will it or can it be corrected in the next production batch run?

I had that talk with sfdownhill and we are going to bring this and a few other little quirks up with Wade. My guess is any issues we had will be resolved if/when we can get the next minimum order fulfilled.

Sorry if I missed it, lots of activity in this thread since I checked last, has anyone done a before and after dyno run and if so what were the gains? 

4 minutes ago, VifferJ

Sorry if I missed it, lots of activity in this thread since I checked last, has anyone done a before and after dyno run and if so what were the gains? 

Yes there were two done, one for a 5 Gen and one for a 6 Gen. Check pages 7 and 14. 

Dyno run done today 2002 vfr800 with a Tinyminds map, four short velocity stack, pipercross, new header and a Austin racing muffler.  Need to sort out fueling I assume.

[image: Scan_0001.jpg]

[image: Scan_0001.jpg]

Finally got around to installing the new headers on my 5th generation yesterday. My nephew helped me and it was still a pain in the ass. Is anyone else experiencing this pipe melting into the fairing? Also, knowing others had trouble aligning the fronts to the bolts my nephew just stretched those apart using brute force- they then lined up fairly well. 

[image: 20190803_170518.jpg]

Has there been any advance on the 8th Gen headers yet?

Cheers

Phil

Count me in for one of the 8th headers. Actually happy the first order didn't happen yet to be honest. And I wanted to ask if I can also get a custom stainless midpipe too? 

sfdownhill, 4/25/2019 at 3:42 AM

Duc2V4 and I got the first nasty surprise of this project when we went to pay Wade the balance due and pick up the headers VFRD members had ordered and paid for.

Our group had ordered a total of 24 sets of 5/6 gen headers, but the amount due was the balance on the cost of 25 headers. The extra cost - $760, equal to the price of one set of headers at the beginning of the project - was Wade's charge for building the fixture/jig from which the headers were built. This blindsided Duc2V4 and I more than a bit, but it became clear that Wade was not pulling a fast one; he simply charges one unit cost to build a jig. We simply had not understood this until the eleventh hour. We were 130 miles from home, and were not going to be able to take delivery of our 24 headers unless the fixture charge was paid along with the cost of the headers.

Duc2V4 stepped up big time and personally paid the $760 fixture charge. This was above and beyond the set of headers he was getting for his 5 gen. He saved us all from a minimum two week delay to sort out the additional cost and ask all purchasers for an additional payment.

Here is my request: Most of us are going to receive our headers this week, so this is a good time to ask that each of us who ordered headers now send Duc2V4 $32 per set of headers to pay him back. I used my personal paypal to send $32 to Duc2V4 at the vfrheaders@gmail.com paypal account.

[$32 is the nearest whole dollar amount to $760 divided by 24 - the number of headers we ordered]

Thank you very much, everybody.

This needed to be reposted as I've just learned that only a few people stepped up and took care of their extra burden. Lance and Darryl have put a huge effort into getting this done and I find it quite insulting that there are people in this community willing to take advantage of these 2 hardworking generous guys. How many other people here would literally spend thousands of dollars of their own money to get some cool stuff for the small group of buyers here? The answer is very few! 

Does it suck that the price went up? Of course! Is it fair to make these 2 nice guys bite the big one for the sake of a dozen ppl saving $32? Uh no!! 

Let's get this done folks.  It's the right thing to do, and it may just bring that wind back to the sails of additional header production.

I just sent mine.  My bad.

Duc2V4 I had that talk with sfdownhill and we are going to bring this and a few other little quirks up with Wade. My guess is any issues we had will be resolved if/when we can get the next minimum order fulfilled.

Btw I have 3 cooper gaskets left over if anyone wants them. [image: 7bbd9b7d87b86095085745bcf404cec9.jpg]

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Quote

I can’t believe I’m seeing what I’m seeing.... actual, live in the flesh (stainless steel), new performance headers for the VFR800’s!

I hope the more recent owners of VFR800s appreciate the gravity and significance of this accomplishment!  If I had any plans for more kids I would name them after these two fine gentlemen!

Thank you seems like too small an acknowledgment.... we should have a ride, throw a party, and consume mass quantities!

All I can do for now is thank you and acknowledge and support your efforts.  Next time I’m in your area of the country dinner and drinks are on me!

Please put me down for two sets of headers; a 5th gen full system and an 8th gen version... I already told the book keeper (wife) I’m getting them so let me know where to send the money.

I know I’ve been gone for a while... I’d like to let my friends on VFRD know that everything is ok now and I’m stoked to be back!

BTW... it took me three days to read through this thread!

.... and I loved every minute of it!

Good to have you back Russ and that everything is OK.

It sure has been a while, but it seems you're back rite where you left off, ready to purchase the unobtainium. 

Cheers bo 

Glad all’s well in Rush land, welcome home 👍😎

So still waiting to see how far off we are on kicking off the next batch for the 5g headers.    How many do we have with deposits or how many more do we need?   This season or next?

22 hours ago, eyrwbvfr

So still waiting to see how far off we are on kicking off the next batch for the 5g headers.    How many do we have with deposits or how many more do we need?   This season or next?

Sorry, life, work balance isn’t where we like it to be at the moment. SF and I have been busy with other things at the moment but we’ll be posting up soon, most likely in a new thread. We are also trying to negotiate with the builder to see if we can lessen the minimum order but that negotiation is still on going. If the minimum doesn’t change, then we will need 15 to get the next run in and depending on how soon we can collect 15 orders will dictate whether is this season or the next. Right now with the few inquiries being made, it looks like we are still needing double digits to complete a 15 order minimum.

I installed the new headers and I just want to thank the two fine gentlemen who generously donated their valuable time and not insignificant effort to get these headers fabricated, built and shipped. I cannot stress how much better the bike pulls now, especially after around 5k rpm. I hope everyone who ordered the 1st batch of 5G headers chips in to not only help defray the extra costs not anticipated but to reward these 2 guys who did all the hard work. And man these new headers look great!
[image: 1c8bf4ce2be50b09f2c40380fc9c4232.jpg]

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I got my bike back yesterday.  Hoping to take it out tomorrow or Friday.  Just wanted to say MUCHAS GRACIAS!! to SFDownhill and also to Duc2V4 for all their hard work, dedication, patience, and attention to detail.  It was a pleasure meeting and working through the process with SF and I'm looking forward to meeting up with him and Duc for a ride someday!  Crappy cell phone pic below, better pictures to follow...

[image: 1258387133_20190813_080144sml.jpg.ea9219a8c75b4b987fba214c42290f86.jpg]

Duc2V4, 8/10/2019 at 12:49 PM

Sorry, life, work balance isn’t where we like it to be at the moment. SF and I have been busy with other things at the moment but we’ll be posting up soon, most likely in a new thread. We are also trying to negotiate with the builder to see if we can lessen the minimum order but that negotiation is still on going. If the minimum doesn’t change, then we will need 15 to get the next run in and depending on how soon we can collect 15 orders will dictate whether is this season or the next. Right now with the few inquiries being made, it looks like we are still needing double digits to complete a 15 order minimum.

You can change my order to two (2) 5th/6th headers if that helps move the needle closer to production.  I’ll buy an 8th gen for front rads at a later date. Let me know where/when/how to place deposit or pay in full.

Rush2112, 8/8/2019 at 8:20 PM

I can’t believe I’m seeing what I’m seeing.... actual, live in the flesh (stainless steel), new performance headers for the VFR800’s!

I hope the more recent owners of VFR800s appreciate the gravity and significance of this accomplishment!  If I had any plans for more kids I would name them after these two fine gentlemen!

Thank you seems like too small an acknowledgment.... we should have a ride, throw a party, and consume mass quantities!

All I can do for now is thank you and acknowledge and support your efforts.  Next time I’m in your area of the country dinner and drinks are on me!

Please put me down for two sets of headers; a 5th gen full system and an 8th gen version... I already told the book keeper (wife) I’m getting them so let me know where to send the money.

I know I’ve been gone for a while... I’d like to let my friends on VFRD know that everything is ok now and I’m stoked to be back!

BTW... it took me three days to read through this thread!

.... and I loved every minute of it!

So glad to have you back! You were missed and we have some catching up to do when you get down (strike that now) up to the Eastern TN area ping me.

CornerCarver, 8/19/2019 at 12:14 PM

So glad to have you back! You were missed and we have some catching up to do when you get down (strike that now) up to the Eastern TN area ping me.

I’m glad to be back.  I can’t wait get back and ride the Smokies again...  eastern TN is where I wanted to move to for the riding but the wife wanted Florida.

... so we moved to Florida lol

i look forward to getting back and connecting! I’ll definitely look you up when I’m in the area!

Im actually a couple of hundred miles closer with my new address than I was riding from STL

Meh.

Samuelx I got my bike back yesterday.  Hoping to take it out tomorrow or Friday.  Just wanted to say MUCHAS GRACIAS!! to SFDownhill and also to Duc2V4 for all their hard work, dedication, patience, and attention to detail.  It was a pleasure meeting and working through the process with SF and I'm looking forward to meeting up with him and Duc for a ride someday!  Crappy cell phone pic below, better pictures to follow...
 
[image: 1258387133_20190813_080144sml.jpg.ea9219a8c75b4b987fba214c42290f86.jpg]

Hey all, were not ignoring you, just a bit hectic on our side of the fence at the moment. SF and I have not had a chance to pow wow and come up with a plan for the next run. Please be patient, not always easy with work and family obligations thrown in the mix.

Cheers,

D

Hey wait,  that was the white bike I saw in the minivan when I delivered the OEM muffler wasn't it?   lol...

2 hours ago, Voided76

Hey wait,  that was the white bike I saw in the minivan when I delivered the OEM muffler wasn't it?   lol...

Yes, it would have been. SF took delivery of it a while ago and done a few extra treatments to it on top of the headers. It was in his possession for a while. I'm sure Samuelx was happy to get it back!

I think i need to replace the muffler gasket. When installing the new headers the old one came off relatively intact but not completely so I believe replacing it is a good idea. I searched on Partzilla but there were 2 or 3 different gaskets listed. Does anyone know the correct one to order?

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Gasket discussion starts around post 70 or so of this thread.


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I think he’s asking about the muffler gasket not exhaust port gaskets. Usually when I see multiple #s the bottom one is the only one that is orderable. My Staintune doesn’t need one, so I haven’t bothered with it for a while now. 

I just looked at Ron Ayers fiche and only see one listed; #7. 

Doesn’t the new header have a larger diameter outlet? I thought people were saying the Staintune would have to be stretched. 

I'm fairly certain the new header outlet diameter is larger but the Vance & Hines pipe fit well, even with the remains of the old, original gasket wrapped around the outlet. My only concern is if the new header outlet is significantly larger the original Honda gasket will not fit. Weren't these headers based on the Two Brothers headers? If so are there gaskets still available from them?

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The Two Brothers header didn't use a gasket. Slip fit joint. 

Hello from greece,

I am really interested to buy the new headers. I own a 2001 5th gen vfr 800 with a tbr slip on black series.

Could we arrange to be sent to Greece?

Thanks 

2 hours ago, Johnpon

Hello from greece,

I am really interested to buy the new headers. I own a 2001 5th gen vfr 800 with a tbr slip on black series.

Could we arrange to be sent to Greece?

Thanks 

Johnpon, shipping to Greece shouldn't be an issue we have sent headers to England, Norway and even Australia. The shipping cost can vary greatly but what seems to be the same, a customs fee was charged to the recipients. The fee was typically based the value given on the customs form. So if the value is for the actual cost, roughly $800 USD, your fee could probably be determined by using that as your value.

SEBSPEED The Two Brothers header didn't use a gasket. Slip fit joint. 

FYI I finally got around to installing my second header on the bike with the Two Brothers muffler. Had to make a shim for it to fit correctly. The mid pipe is dated 5/98.

Gonna do a write-up on both bikes soon with pitfalls, and impressions.

 Centerstand stop solution info here:

So I really don't have time to read through all of this thread. Is there a dyno chart or something to see the hp changes. Thanks 

6 hours ago, zx9vfr800

So I really don't have time to read through all of this thread. Is there a dyno chart or something to see the hp changes. Thanks 

Yep, page 16 of this thread

Hi guys!  new here, this header is exactly what I was looking for to complete my pretty extensive build when is the next batch going to be made and how do I sign up for one ? Thanks!  And thanks for making a proper header! 👍👍. 

2003 6th Gen . 

16 hours ago, PetoRC

Hi guys!  new here, this header is exactly what I was looking for to complete my pretty extensive build when is the next batch going to be made and how do I sign up for one ? Thanks!  And thanks for making a proper header! 👍👍. 

2003 6th Gen . 

@sfdownhill

Rush2112, 8/20/2019 at 11:19 PM

I’m glad to be back.  I can’t wait get back and ride the Smokies again...  eastern TN is where I wanted to move to for the riding but the wife wanted Florida.

... so we moved to Florida lol

i look forward to getting back and connecting! I’ll definitely look you up when I’m in the area!

Im actually a couple of hundred miles closer with my new address than I was riding from STL

Rush2112, 8/20/2019 at 11:19 PM

I’m glad to be back.  I can’t wait get back and ride the Smokies again...  eastern TN is where I wanted to move to for the riding but the wife wanted Florida.

... so we moved to Florida lol

i look forward to getting back and connecting! I’ll definitely look you up when I’m in the area!

Im actually a couple of hundred miles closer with my new address than I was riding from STL

I've been away for the summer, good to see you both back 

Put the header on and love it love it love it! I took off the center stand when I put the headers on because it looked bad and wanted to get rid of some weight. Now I need some sort of stand to change the oil and clean the chain- any ideas?[image: 995e78f29cd061600732566899d99541.jpg]

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1 hour ago, interceptor69

Put the header on and love it love it love it! I took off the center stand when I put the headers on because it looked bad and wanted to get rid of some weight. Now I need some sort of stand to change the oil and clean the chain- any ideas?[image: 995e78f29cd061600732566899d99541.jpg]

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

If you’re like me and do pretty much all your own maintenance and service, then the ABBA Skylift is awesome, especially if you need to leave the bike on the stand more than just a day. The wheeled base makes it easy to maneuver around even when the bike is raised. If your budget doesn’t allow for the Skylift, then I say Pit-bull would be my next suggestion. I have the Pit-bull single side swing arm stand and the head lift stand for when I need to do simple stuff, like oil changes, chain cleaning/lubing and even tire and brake service. Solid stuff, bike is very stable and secure when using them.

12 minutes ago, Duc2V4

If you’re like me and do pretty much all your own maintenance and service, then the ABBA Skylift is awesome

I'd be afraid of having "Dancing Queen" stuck in my head while trying to do maintenance.  :goofy:

3 minutes ago, Marvelicious

I'd be afraid of having "Dancing Queen" stuck in my head while trying to do maintenance.  :goofy:

I’m always thinking “Mama Mia!”

The Abba superbike stand is also an option.

[image: abba.jpg]

1 hour ago, Duc2V4

I’m always thinking “Mama Mia!”

I do like those stands. A buddy and I both have those HF lifts and we both have the same problem: a long term project has more or less put down roots on them and various parts and other sundry have accumulated. They're a good lift for the money (at least for what I paid... they've gotten expensive since then), but that Skylift looks a lot more suited for normal maintenance tasks.

I texted a link to my buddy as well and he's been sending me ABBA lyrics back for the last hour...

Thanks for the replies.  Checked the PitBull site and the rear looks sturdy. Does it just stick into the axle?

Yes, should go on the sprocket side IIRC. Pit-Bull is quality stuff.


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On the Pit Bull you remove the small plastic cap on the drive side to allow the pin to slide in.  I like my Pit Bull, but honestly the ability to roll the bike around while in pieces would be awesome.  Once you begin a project on service stands,  it ain't movin till you're done. 

As for "Dancing Queen", it wasn't exactly music for guys,  but the music videos weren't difficult to watch, if ya know what I'm sayin . . .  :wink:

The Abba lift is $700....a bit pricey for me.

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Hi Guys

Has there been any advance on the 8th Gen pipes yet please.

My deposit has been with you since 18th February 2019 and I am starting to feel there is going to be no advance on this so it would be good to get my $200 USD back.

So, can someone get back to me please.

Cheers

Phil

There are at least 3 others among us in for an 8th gen set that match up with a standard 5th/6th gen exit position.  With Tyga now seeming to be in too, the "I'm interested in headers" contingent seems a bit split.  It's not clear to me if Tyga is only making 4th gen versions or if there will be versions for other gens.  Left exit headers will leave 6th gen owners stranded as that's not likely what they'll want.  Even 5th gen owners might not want to lose their center stand so hard telling if they'll want a left exit, either.   I remember counting up those that sat out the first batch of Wade headers and there were a fair number - maybe 10 or so - possibly enough to get another run if we can get organized.  Until the thread gets some new life it's not likely any more deposits are coming.  It seems doable, just need to get those interested to chime in.  I'm in for an 8th gen set with 6th gen compatibility and might also get a standard set for my 5th gen, too. 

Duc2V4, 8/30/2019 at 10:06 PM

Johnpon, shipping to Greece shouldn't be an issue we have sent headers to England, Norway and even Australia. The shipping cost can vary greatly but what seems to be the same, a customs fee was charged to the recipients. The fee was typically based the value given on the customs form. So if the value is for the actual cost, roughly $800 USD, your fee could probably be determined by using that as your value.

Inquiring the same for a delivery to Poland. Couldn't we just say that value is closer to $0 than $800? 😉

And if the package got lost you could only claim insurance for the stated value ! Just saying ☹️

Highside, try and keep the faith a little longer re. the 8th gen. pipes; we need the numbers to reach critical mass. DUC24 asked 2-3 weeks ago re. wanting passivating or not on the finished product, so I remain hopeful there's been some movement...like you, my deposit has been sitting for a while. I'm sure the lads are across it as time allows  (but would also like to see progress too).

Best to all.

I sent a deposit for a 5th/6th gen header a couple of weeks ago but haven't heard anything. Does anyone know how many deposits are in for that pipe. If it would help I'd take an 8th gen pipe with 6th gen compatibility. What's the difference between a 5th/6th gen pipe and the 8th gen with 6th gen compatibility. Thanks

I may be alone in this, but my sense of urgency is that for us in the Northern Hemisphere riding season is more or less over and the perfect time to do a major project (in my case maybe also an engine swap) on the bike is at hand.  If these don't become available until spring then in order to ride next year the project will have to be put off until this time 2020, losing a year.  So all things equal if it could be prior to year end '19 that would be awesome.  But time will tell . . .

Regarding 8th gen headers some of us want, the routing allows for mounting of the 8th gen lower radiator on earlier models.  It's been done on a 6th gen, not sure about on a  5th.  See HighSideNZ's thread on that topic here - take note of how the headers hug the block:

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/88558-no-more-side-radiators-period/&tab=comments#comment-1092357

Hey all, sorry for my lack of presence here on this thread. I will see if I can get a hold of SF and see where things are. He has been the one in charge of dealing with the pipe builder and I have been dealing with the shipping and coordinating with him in regards to who gets what. I know he was not available the past couple of days but I'll see if I can get a hold of him tomorrow.

Cheers

Cogswell, 10/8/2019 at 10:29 PM

I may be alone in this, but my sense of urgency is that for us in the Northern Hemisphere riding season is more or less over and the perfect time to do a major project (in my case maybe also an engine swap) on the bike is at hand.  If these don't become available until spring then in order to ride next year the project will have to be put off until this time 2020, losing a year.  So all things equal if it could be prior to year end '19 that would be awesome.  But time will tell . . .

Regarding 8th gen headers some of us want, the routing allows for mounting of the 8th gen lower radiator on earlier models.  It's been done on a 6th gen, not sure about on a  5th.  See HighSideNZ's thread on that topic here - take note of how the headers hug the block:

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/88558-no-more-side-radiators-period/&tab=comments#comment-1092357

Thanks for the link Cogswell

There has been progress.

First please allow me to thank Duc2V4 for his patience and persistence in supporting and encouraging continued effort on this project - he is a rock star in many ways, more even than are evident in his high quality participation on VFRD.

Second, please allow me to sincerely apologize to everyone - especially those who have placed deposits for headers - for not staying current with communication regarding this project. No excuse can suffice for me dropping the ball the way I have. I will be paying close attention, responding promptly, and doing my part from here on out, beginning with reading through/responding to all PMs and catching up on the many posts on this thread that I missed.

We have been able to arrange with Wade, the fabricator of VFR headers, to complete construction of fifteen sets of 8 gen headers, in spite of not having met his minimum quantity of fifteen orders. These 8 gen systems have been built on a jig that was modified slightly to provide better fitment when the center stand is down. Seven of these fifteen 8 gen headers are already sold to VFRD members and to a couple others who placed deposits. Again, thank you all for your patience.

[image: 401293619_8gencomplete1.thumb.JPG.224e3b672563b1da3243907946a9d20d.JPG][image: 875099269_8gencomplete2.thumb.JPG.19effe6bd4796c46d3b31a91bd8c9830.JPG]

Eight sets of these 8 gen headers are now available for purchase.

Going forward, Wade has also finally agreed to build runs of as few as 6 sets of headers, down from a minimum order of 15 units. Because of this, those who have placed deposits for 5/6 gen headers in the second production run will be seeing their headers built soon. This also means a much shorter time between production runs for all headers, 5/6 gen and 8 gen.

For upcoming 5/6 gen headers, Wade has modified the jig to provide better center stand clearance, as well as establishing clearance between the front right primary tube and the inner chin half cowl.

Ten of the 8 gen headers that have been completed are currently at the passivators being acid dipped for strength and longevity. Passivation costs $90 per exhaust and has been discussed in detail early in this thread, starting with Sebspeed's querie on page 2:

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/88463-new-5th6th8th-gen-performance-header-now-in-production-in-usa/page/2/]

The five remaining 8 gen headers can be passivated if the buyers chooses to do so.

To begin getting headers shipped out to their new owners, PMs with more detail will go out in the next 24 hours to all those who have placed deposits for 8 gen and 5/6 gen headers.

We have also checked in with Tyga about their upcoming headers, and received an interesting reply. Here is the email exchange [with names and personal emails removed]:

"> -----Original Message-----
> From: ______ _______ [mailto:____________]
> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 10:48 PM
> To: Tyga-Performance <Tyga@Tyga-Performance.com>
> Subject: Enquiry from TYGA-Performance: New Tyga headers for Honda VFR800
>
> Hello,
>
> I just saw the Tyga update on the vfrdiscussion.com website - it is exciting to learn that Tyga will be producing headers and exhaust systems for the Honda VFR800.
>
> Are you far enough along in the process to have pricing for a set of headers for the VFR800?
>
> Which version or versions of the VFR800 are your headers going to be built for? 5th gen with two side-mounted radiators is 1998-2001, 6th gen with two side-mounted radiators is 2002-2013, and 8th gen with one front-mounted radiator is 2014-2016.
>
> Thank you very much for following through on this project.
>
> Best regards,
>
> ____________

> On Sep 22, 2019, at 9:29 PM, tyga <tyga@tyga-performance.com> wrote:
>
> Hi _________
>
> Many thanks for the message. We are actually making the exhaust for the 1993-97 model. I am not sure if it will fit previous or subsequent models. I understand that the TBR one fits earlier models but not sure if they would be compatible with the 800. Our plan would be to get the 4th gen to market and see how they sell and hopefully, if it is successful, we can then adapt as necessary to fit earlier and or later models. Sorry, it looks like your wait will need to be a bit longer.
>
> Best regards
>
> Paul
>"

Postscript - we were able to work with VFRD member SamuelX and his beautiful 8 gen [Deluxe model] to develop this high mount exhaust to go with the headers. SamuelX wanted to keep his Yoshimura muffler, so we trimmed it to fit the bike's dimensions. I have had the privilege to ride this motorcycle on several of my favorite sets of twisted pavement. With the added performance, this bike was an awful lot of fun - thanks Samuel! For the first time, I starting thinking that perhaps the 5 gen is not the be-all, end-all of VFRs...

[image: 1554536046_8genhiDon2.thumb.JPG.d6eed418e872970b35e50ff63006070a.JPG][image: 1544436272_8genhiDon4.thumb.JPG.2323b779fc14ea3a9e34b3112de4edec.JPG]

[image: 1535586212_8genhiDon1.thumb.JPG.a520c715becca5149beb7154e2caf41f.JPG]

[image: 155579644_8genhiDon5.thumb.JPG.a4e7aaaaf3e15739741474fae2f2ec5b.JPG]

Hey SF, you da man (and Duc too)!  It took longer than we had originally anticipated but IMO it was definitely worth the wait!  As I told you in person, I very much appreciated your (and Duc's) hard work, dedication, diligence, and attention to detail - there was quite a bit of "stuff" that you had to deal with behind the scenes on these projects and I didn't envy you having to balance that load on top of everything else going on in your regular life.  I, for one, wouldn't hesitate to entrust my bike to and/or do business with you again!  Thanks for scrubbing my tires in - I'm still looking forward to riding with you (guys) some day (been super busy at work and also sick for the past week, sucks!). 

5 minutes ago, Samuelx

Hey SF, you da man (and Duc too)!  It took longer than we had originally anticipated but IMO it was definitely worth the wait!  As I told you in person, I very much appreciated your (and Duc's) hard work, dedication, diligence, and attention to detail - there was quite a bit of "stuff" that you had to deal with behind the scenes on these projects and I didn't envy you having to balance that load on top of everything else going on in your regular life.  I, for one, wouldn't hesitate to entrust my bike to and/or do business with you again!  Thanks for scrubbing my tires in - I'm still looking forward to riding with you (guys) some day (been super busy at work and also sick for the past week, sucks!). 

+1 (except for the being sick...). Hats off!!

23 hours ago, sfdownhill

> Eight sets of these 8 gen headers are now available for purchase.

What was the final asking price for the 8th gen?

9 hours ago, vfrcapn

What was the final asking price for the 8th gen?

I believe the current price is $830.00 plus shipping. This actually applies to 5&6 Gens too. 

Hi sfdownhill

Glad to hear all is going to plan and thanks to you and Duc2V4 for persevering with the build.

Let me know what I owe and how to pay to get things rolling.

I'll send you my US delivery address via PM once you contact.

Cheers

Phil

sfdownhill, 10/11/2019 at 1:55 AM

Going forward, Wade has also finally agreed to build runs of as few as 6 sets of headers, down from a minimum order of 15 units. Because of this, those who have placed deposits for 5/6 gen headers in the second production run will be seeing their headers built soon. This also means a much shorter time between production runs for all headers, 5/6 gen and 8 gen.

For upcoming 5/6 gen headers, Wade has modified the jig to provide better center stand clearance, as well as establishing clearance between the front right primary tube and the inner chin half cowl.

I'm getting excited now!  Thanks for the update and thanks for the whole team with all your efforts and hard work!!

Duc2V4, 10/12/2019 at 8:11 AM

I believe the current price is $830.00 plus shipping. This actually applies to 5&6 Gens too. 

PM sent re interest in 5/6 and 8th gen sets.

Cogswell, 10/15/2019 at 8:05 PM

PM sent re interest in 5/6 and 8th gen sets.

Ditto... I’m in for 5th gen and 8th gen sets.  PM sent.

I'm still interested in the tune for the 6th gen. There was some talk about does one of it being available for sale but I haven't heard anything about it since. Is this still a thing or no?

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17 hours ago, Neo2122

I'm still interested in the tune for the 6th gen. There was some talk about does one of it being available for sale but I haven't heard anything about it since. Is this still a thing or no?

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
 

PM sent

Pm me also. i am interested in the tune for the 6th gen.  Ty.

Hi Guys!

I have read this whole thread and I don’t recall if it is stated... what type of stainless steel is used in the construction of the headers?  Is it 304, 314, 409, 430, etc.?  I was thinking of having them electropolished and the metal finisher needs to know which stainless steel alloy is used.

Thanks!

3 hours ago, Rush2112

Hi Guys!

I have read this whole thread and I don’t recall if it is stated... what type of stainless steel is used in the construction of the headers?  Is it 304, 314, 409, 430, etc.?  I was thinking of having them electropolished and the metal finisher needs to know which stainless steel alloy is used.

Thanks!

This was in the first post of the thread.   I had probably read through this whole thing 3 times before I noticed it - lots of info to digest. 

Pm sent

Hi Guys,

Any update or possible ETA on next available lot of headers? Do we need to obtain additional orders?

Thanks!

PM'd SF on Saturday and have yet to hear back.

2 hours ago, Rush2112

Hi Guys,

Any update or possible ETA on next available lot of headers? Do we need to obtain additional orders?

Thanks!

Based on the current orders taken, I think we just made the minimum. SF and I are going to pow wow tomorrow and make sure we have everyone’s deposit accounted for and ensure we have everyone’s order covered. We’ll be posting up a summary to show who we have received deposits from and what they placed an order for.

1 hour ago, TheLimey

PM'd SF on Saturday and have yet to hear back.

SF and I are going to go over all the PMs and deposits tomorrow, please add me to your PM so I am part of the correspondence.

Cheers,

D

I owe a balance on my 8g header, I will take care of it this weekend. 

Sent my deposit. 

Same here.  PM the balance and I'll send it. 

Hi All,

Here is list of the 8 Gen folks that have deposits and should be expecting balance due notices this week.  There are a total of 9 sold and leaves us with 6 still available for sale.

• Sebspeed QTY.1
• Corner Carver QTY. 2
• Fz6wja QTY. 1
• Voided76 QTY. 1
• HiSideNZ QTY.1
• Wingate QTY. 1
• Cogswell QTY. 1
• Rush2112 QTY. 1
• mountainslide QTY. 1 (added 11/3/19)

Here is a list of the 5/6 Gen folks that have deposits. We did hit the minimum so we should be able to get these into Wade for building.

• eyrwbvfr 5 Gen QTY. 1
• urdrvideo 5 Gen QTY. 1
• urdrvideo 6 Gen QTY. 1 (added 10/30/19)
• Cogswell 6 Gen QTY. 1
• Rush2112 5 Gen QTY. 1
• boOZZIE 6 Gen QTY. 1
• johnpon 5 Gen QTY. 1
• ducnut 5 Gen QTY. 1
• TheLimey 6 Gen QTY. 1 (corrected)
• jkboyd 5 Gen QTY. 1 (corrected)
• PetoRC 6 Gen QTY. 1
• NarrowRider 6 Gen QTY. 1 (added 11/3/19)

If you see your name listed here but the info is incorrect, please PM me and sfdownhill ASAP.

NOTE: We are still taking deposits up until the end of this week, so if you want add your name to the list please send us a PM with with Gen you want built, if you want it passivated and where it will ship to.

Cheers,

D

What is being assembled as far as O2 bungs?    Is there options we need to decide on?   I know the question was asked but I can't remember the answer to it.

10 hours ago, eyrwbvfr

What is being assembled as far as O2 bungs?    Is there options we need to decide on?   I know the question was asked but I can't remember the answer to it.

If I recall correctly, the 5/6 Gens will have 3 bungs, 2 in the OEM locations and 1 after the collector. The builder decided it would be easier and more effective time wise just to build them all the same. SF will have to chime to confirm but I believe the 8 Gen will have 1 in the OEM location with the same bung size (12mm) and 1 18mm located post collector. 

Good, that's the most flexible route as unused ones can just be plugged with a cap.

Pm sent if its not to late

10 hours ago, NarrowRider

Pm sent if its not to late

Received and responded.

Jozef - our favorite dyno technician in the world and head of tuning at Attack Performance - has provided the maps he built on the dyno for:

5 gen VFR800 tuned with Power Commander 3

6 gen VFR800 tuned with Power Commander 5

8 gen VFR800 tuned with Power Commander 5

These maps will work well on any 5th, 6th, or 8th gen VFR800 with the new performance headers, a good quality hi-flow air filter [We prefer the K&N HA-8098 filter] and a good quality slipon muffler.

If you have purchased these headers and would like to utilize one of these maps to optimize your VFR's performance without trucking it out to a dyno shop, we can email the map for your gen VFR to you for a donation of $50. Please send 'sending to a friend' to the paypal account of vfrheaders@gmail.com, and in the note section of the paypal transfer, specify the email address you'd like us to send the map to.

Below are the dyno charts for the three maps. These maps were posted early on in this thread, but are included here to save people the trouble of locating them in the way-back portion of this thread. Each chart has three traces:

[1] a baseline run with OEM headers

[2] a run done with the new headers installed and a zero map, meaning no tuning and no changes to OEM ECU fueling were entered into the Power Commander map

[3] a final run after a complete tune was performed

There are two versions of each chart:

[1] a chart with a reference line at peak horsepower/torque

[2] the same chart with a reference line at midrange 7000rpm to demonstrate the midrange gains achieved with tuning the new headers [8 gen kicked butt at 7000rpm with 16% gains in both horsepower and torque]

5 gen Power Commander 3 map [peak]:

[image: 395067601_Attackpeakhp1012619.thumb.jpg.ded57767b8c0b26f632aac38d32ff26a.jpg]

5 gen Power Commander 3 map [midrange]:

[image: 471413747_Attackmidrangecomparison1012619.thumb.jpg.3224904af8b4ae925abfbb6f116cb848.jpg]

6 gen Power Commander 5 map [peak]:

[image: 1746326687_Attack6gencomparison041019.thumb.jpg.49446b7c296025bbb384ce598f2335bc.jpg]

6 gen Power Commander 5 map [midrange]:

[image: 1526218751_Attack6genmidrangecomparison041019.thumb.jpg.df7a7fb514f49bb0b4aac7a66ffe9142.jpg]

8 gen Power Commander 5 map [peak]:

[image: 2101616871_Attack8gencomparison042419.thumb.jpg.9edc317e55be6ad617036118226325ff.jpg]

8 gen Power Commander 5 map [midrange]:

[image: 1022751478_Attack8genmidrange042419.thumb.jpg.4c435668d6ecfef45795ba5b3ffe92d5.jpg]

Is there an expiration date for this offer?   I would rather hold off on the map until I get a PC3 and even install the headers, which may not happen until spring anyway.    I won't have a need for the map until then.

48 minutes ago, eyrwbvfr

Is there an expiration date for this offer?   I would rather hold off on the map until I get a PC3 and even install the headers, which may not happen until spring anyway.    I won't have a need for the map until then.

As far as I am aware, there is no explanation date. 

5 hours ago, eyrwbvfr

Is there an expiration date for this offer?   I would rather hold off on the map until I get a PC3 and even install the headers, which may not happen until spring anyway.    I won't have a need for the map until then.

4 hours ago, Duc2V4

As far as I am aware, there is no explanation date. 

Confirming what Duc2V4 said - the maps will be here and available on an ongoing basis.

Hi Guys, just confirming about the bungs on the 8th gen headers, and I preface this by saying I probably should've brought this up earlier, but why not 2X 18mm bungs rather than a (OEM size) 12mm and 1X 18mm? Wouldn't it have been more flexible to have 2X 18mm and just use a reducer if using OEM O2 sensors? (I ask as I have a Rapid Bike Race ready to install once the headers arrive, and would've liked the option of running wide-band sensors; with the 12 and 18 combo, I'll be stuck using the narrow-band, or am I missing something?).

Continued thanks to SF and Duc2V4 for their Herculean efforts shepherding this through.

2 hours ago, Wingate

Hi Guys, just confirming about the bungs on the 8th gen headers, and I preface this by saying I probably should've brought this up earlier, but why not 2X 18mm bungs rather than a (OEM size) 12mm and 1X 18mm? Wouldn't it have been more flexible to have 2X 18mm and just use a reducer if using OEM O2 sensors? (I ask as I have a Rapid Bike Race ready to install once the headers arrive, and would've liked the option of running wide-band sensors; with the 12 and 18 combo, I'll be stuck using the narrow-band, or am I missing something?).

Continued thanks to SF and Duc2V4 for their Herculean efforts shepherding this through.

With this arrangement You can use a single Rapidbike wide band O2 sensor in conjunction with your 2 stock O2 sensors. The Rapidbike will send a constant message to your ECU that everything is cool with the fuel mixture and and you won’t get any error codes for missing O2 sensors while the wide band sensor will adjust the actual A/F ratio to whatever you target. This will keep you from throwing “Check Engine” error codes and entering “Limp Home” mode because the O2 sensors are actually reading a too rich condition (if you target 13.1 A/F ratio for optimum power).

You are correct though, putting three 18mm bungs would have been more flexible because it would have allowed the use of two wide band O2 sensors for those who wanted too but you would have to have wired in resistors into the stock O2 sensors wiring harness to trick the ECU into thinking the stock sensors are still there.  
The current set up is the most user friendly and easiest to set up for the greatest number of people. 

5 minutes ago, Rush2112

With this arrangement You can use a single Rapidbike wide band O2 sensor in conjunction with your 2 stock O2 sensors. The Rapidbike will send a constant message to your ECU that everything is cool with the fuel mixture and and you won’t get any error codes for missing O2 sensors while the wide band sensor will adjust the actual A/F ratio to whatever you target. This will keep you from throwing “Check Engine” error codes and entering “Limp Home” mode because the O2 sensors are actually reading a too rich condition (if you target 13.1 A/F ratio for optimum power).

You are correct though, putting three 18mm bungs would have been more flexible because it would have allowed the use of two wide band O2 sensors for those who wanted too but you would have to have wired in resistors into the stock O2 sensors wiring harness to trick the ECU into thinking the stock sensors are still there.  
The current set up is the most user friendly and easiest to set up for the greatest number of people. 

Sorry, 5.5 gen and 6th gen have two stock O2 sensors... I think 8th gen has one. I apologize if I caused any confusion. The same explanation applies though. 

Hi Wingate - and thanks Rush for helping fill in a couple blanks.

Short version - we hope Rapid Bike autotune feature adapts to 8 gens the same way it adapts to 2000-2001 5 gens and all 6 gens - that RB leaves the single 12mm OEM O2 sensor on the 8 gen connected and employs a single added 18mm wideband O2 sensor to send air/fuel readings to the RB. This is what the headers are configured for.

But we are not certain whether this is the case. Yet. We hope.

We selected one 12mm bung so guys who bought the new headers could still use their single 12mm OEM O2 sensor. VFRD member Samuelx, owner of the 8 gen test bike, is using Power Commander 5 and has kept his OEM O2 sensor and all is well - no FI warning light or other flags. It is not an autotune system. On Samuelx's bike we were able to use the 18mm bung for Attack Performance's wideband sensor when the bike was on their dyno - this is more accurate than a 'sniffer' inserted into the tailpipe. We did have to purchase a 12" extension cable for the OEM O2 sensor to reach back to the new headers' collector exit, because placing the 12mm bung in the collector exit pushed it 12" further back than the front-of-catalytic-converter position of the OEM bung. This position allows air/fuel readings from all four cylinders combined. 

[The O2 sensor extension cable sells for $11 on ebay and is described as being for Honda Civic autos. Do NOT purchase the 12" O2 sensor extension cable for Acuras you might find on ebay, as it looks like it uses the same connector, but it does not. Ask me how I know].

We added the 18mm bung to 8 gen headers - also in the collector exit where it samples gases from all four cylinders - so that the wideband O2 sensor that Rush2112 described as a "single Rapidbike wide band O2 sensor" would function properly on 8 gen VFRs.

We know the Rapid Bike autotune can use the third [wideband] sensor along with the two OEM sensors on 2000-2001 5 gen VFRs and all 6 gen VFRs [Duc2V4 is using this setup on both his 2001 and on his 2009]. After checking in with Duc2V4, neither of us are certain that one must use three sensors with a RB autotune on 5, 6, OR 8 gen VFRs.

This is strictly a guess on my part, but it might be that RB sets up their autotune system to use the two OEM sensors on VFRs that have two OEM bungs/sensors simply because the two bungs are there, and they both happen to be full of sensors. I think I recall that with RB wideband sensors are an upgrade option, but OEM narrow band can be used - I could be wrong here. Duc2V4 can speak to this [And I hope he will - I'm floundering a bit].

What we hope for 8 gen owners who purchase new headers and are aiming for a RB with autotune is that RB sets up their system for 8 gen to use one 18mm wideband O2 sensor in conjunction with the single OEM sensor in the 12mm bung.

[Please note the amount of restraint required to not add 'hole' after 'bung']

Since I'm listing and describing things I do not know, I'll add that I do not know if the the 8 gen's single 12mm OEM O2 sensor is wideband or narrow.

The new performance 8 gen headers have an 18mm bung because 18mm is the size we know for certain that quality Bosch wideband O2 sensors come in; they are sold by both RB and Dynojet [Power Commander] and are used by most dyno tuning facilities.

Bottom line - more research is needed.

**Anyone who can help develop a definitive answer to how an 8 gen VFR implements a Rapid Bike autotune system, please do chime in here**

sfdownhill, 11/9/2019 at 1:53 PM

This is strictly a guess on my part, but it might be that RB sets up their autotune system to use the two OEM sensors on VFRs that have two OEM bungs/sensors simply because the two bungs are there, and they both happen to be full of sensors. I think I recall that with RB wideband sensors are an upgrade option, but OEM narrow band can be used - I could be wrong here. Duc2V4 can speak to this [And I hope he will - I'm floundering a bit].

What we hope for 8 gen owners who purchase new headers and are aiming for a RB with autotune is that RB sets up their system for 8 gen to use one 18mm wideband O2 sensor in conjunction with the single OEM sensor in the 12mm bung.

[Please note the amount of restraint required to not add 'hole' after 'bung']

**Anyone who can help develop a definitive answer to how an 8 gen VFR implements a Rapid Bike autotune system, please do chime in here**

You are correct, sir... the Rapidbike can use the narrow band OEM sensors with a standard map or the upgrade Autotune with a wideband O2 sensor.

Heh, heh, heh... Bung-holio!

Rush2112, ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 7:36 PM

Sorry, 5.5 gen and 6th gen have two stock O2 sensors... I think 8th gen has one. I apologize if I caused any confusion. The same explanation applies though. 

sfdownhill, ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 10:53 AM

Hi Wingate - and thanks Rush for helping fill in a couple blanks.

Short version - we hope Rapid Bike autotune feature adapts to 8 gens the same way it adapts to 2000-2001 5 gens and all 6 gens - that RB leaves the single 12mm OEM O2 sensor on the 8 gen connected and employs a single added 18mm wideband O2 sensor to send air/fuel readings to the RB. This is what the headers are configured for.

But we are not certain whether this is the case. Yet. We hope.

We selected one 12mm bung so guys who bought the new headers could still use their single 12mm OEM O2 sensor. VFRD member Samuelx, owner of the 8 gen test bike, is using Power Commander 5 and has kept his OEM O2 sensor and all is well - no FI warning light or other flags. It is not an autotune system. On Samuelx's bike we were able to use the 18mm bung for Attack Performance's wideband sensor when the bike was on their dyno - this is more accurate than a 'sniffer' inserted into the tailpipe. We did have to purchase a 12" extension cable for the OEM O2 sensor to reach back to the new headers' collector exit, because placing the 12mm bung in the collector exit pushed it 12" further back than the front-of-catalytic-converter position of the OEM bung. This position allows air/fuel readings from all four cylinders combined. 

[The O2 sensor extension cable sells for $11 on ebay and is described as being for Honda Civic autos. Do NOT purchase the 12" O2 sensor extension cable for Acuras you might find on ebay, as it looks like it uses the same connector, but it does not. Ask me how I know].

We added the 18mm bung to 8 gen headers - also in the collector exit where it samples gases from all four cylinders - so that the wideband O2 sensor that Rush2112 described as a "single Rapidbike wide band O2 sensor" would function properly on 8 gen VFRs.

We know the Rapid Bike autotune can use the third [wideband] sensor along with the two OEM sensors on 2000-2001 5 gen VFRs and all 6 gen VFRs [Duc2V4 is using this setup on both his 2001 and on his 2009]. After checking in with Duc2V4, neither of us are certain that one must use three sensors with a RB autotune on 5, 6, OR 8 gen VFRs.

This is strictly a guess on my part, but it might be that RB sets up their autotune system to use the two OEM sensors on VFRs that have two OEM bungs/sensors simply because the two bungs are there, and they both happen to be full of sensors. I think I recall that with RB wideband sensors are an upgrade option, but OEM narrow band can be used - I could be wrong here. Duc2V4 can speak to this [And I hope he will - I'm floundering a bit].

What we hope for 8 gen owners who purchase new headers and are aiming for a RB with autotune is that RB sets up their system for 8 gen to use one 18mm wideband O2 sensor in conjunction with the single OEM sensor in the 12mm bung.

[Please note the amount of restraint required to not add 'hole' after 'bung']

Since I'm listing and describing things I do not know, I'll add that I do not know if the the 8 gen's single 12mm OEM O2 sensor is wideband or narrow.

The new performance 8 gen headers have an 18mm bung because 18mm is the size we know for certain that quality Bosch wideband O2 sensors come in; they are sold by both RB and Dynojet [Power Commander] and are used by most dyno tuning facilities.

Bottom line - more research is needed.

**Anyone who can help develop a definitive answer to how an 8 gen VFR implements a Rapid Bike autotune system, please do chime in here**

Gents, Thank you both for your thorough replies. You both jogged my memory a bit (the RB has been sitting on the bench a while waiting for the headers) and, indeed, the RBR does work off the two OEM narrow bands (On the Rapidbike/Cyclepro website, it does state you must use the RBR in conjunction with the OEM sensors if your bike's equipped with them). Other experience on this forum suggests  run with wide bands only - via My Tuning Bike; apparently, as per Yaman, you can't hook the wide-bands directly to the RB module (from the RB.US website: "If the stock O2 (Lambda) sensor/s have been disabled by an ECU flash or with installation of a factory option race ecu or an aftermarket ecu  then My Tuning Bike Module/s can be used by itself").  So, I think your guess is correct, Downhill, and you can run one MTB in addition to the two (or one) OEM narrow. Finally, just to be clear, the RB doesn't actually need to have a wide-band connected to work; it is designed to work with the OEM narrow-bands but just requires more KM/miles to dial in. The wide-band allows for more instantaneous feedback.  CandyRedRC46 is one of the forum's resident knowledge boxes on all things RB, and there is a RBR vs. RB Evo thread here in the archives somewhere. Agree with Rush2112's observation the 12mm OEM narrow-band and 18MM wide-band bung combo are the most user friendly combo for many.

I’ve been using just wide Band for years with my RBRacing module. 
The narrow band sensors are just looped together on the RRR harness. I use both the original O2 sensor feeds to power the MTB wideband sensor, you have to use both as the Wideband sensor draws to much current for one feed to supply it.

As an FYI You only need power through on stock O2 sensor feed to keep the Fi light out. Because the alameda signal is not seen the ECU defaults to a rich map. It is this map you use the RBR or PC3/5 to correct.

Have fun 👍

Any update on the 5th gen headers?   Has it started yet?

I got a big box today... :biggrin:

eyrwbvfr, 11/18/2019 at 1:04 PM

Any update on the 5th gen headers?   Has it started yet?

I believe that Wade was given the quantity and may have ordered the material but I’ll have to defer to Sfdownhill, as he’s the one that handles that side of things. 

SEBSPEED, 11/18/2019 at 3:03 PM

I got a big box today... :biggrin:

Me too . . . amazing how great they look. 

11 hours ago, Cogswell

Me too . . . amazing how great they look. 

FedEx emailed that my 8th gens should be here today... so excited!

I'm still waiting for my headers and none of you are helping. Keep it to yourselves, will you? 😛

Duc2V4, 11/20/2019 at 12:06 PM

I believe that Wade was given the quantity and may have ordered the material but I’ll have to defer to Sfdownhill, as he’s the one that handles that side of things. 

......

Shop artwork. Installed new exhaust yesterday, went for a ride today.

[image: image.jpeg]

....and😆

How is it?

^^^In a word Awesome! The dyno graphs were dead on, midrange pull coming out of curve is defiantly noticeable. Sound is deeper (and louder especially when V-tec kicks in). The bike just pulls harder all the way up, you'll see 👍.

The fit of the exhaust is great, you can see the planning and work that went into this (Great Job!). When installing I worked the rear first (left side) then worked forward. Once you get rear turn downs made up all the way exhaust fits like a glove. I used belt sander & my old gasket to get my gasket fit right. No mods to bike needed except the O2 extension wire. 

Wish I would have taken pictures of the install, this system looks good with the fairing off. 

Very pleased.

Hello all, just bought a 6th gen today and was hoping to get in on the header buy.  Anybody able to help me find out?  

Never mind.  I just ordered a used 1998 exhaust instead for now.  Should be good enough for the first round of mods.  

1 hour ago, Drumagician

Never mind.  I just ordered a used 1998 exhaust instead for now.  Should be good enough for the first round of mods.  

Sorry for the lack of response, both sfdownhill and I were busy all weekend. That being said, the cut off was a little while back but it's possible that there could be another run, all depends on how the builder feels after this one.

Hi Drumagician, as Duc2V4 said, sorry for not reaponding sooner. I haven’t been getting vfrd updates properly, didn’t even get a notification of your post, so apologies there.

Not to push the product, but if you want to do the performance header, you’ll be happier the whole way through your upgrade path and can line up a Power Commander or Rapid Bike, maybe even autotune or one of the maps we have for 5th, 6th, and 8th gens. Your bike will pull like you wouldn’t believe. Fun stuff.

If you stick w the 1998 header, you will probably have an easier time fitting it to your 6 gen if you trim 5/8” - 3/4” off the collector exit.

Or it might be better to trim the 5/8”-3/4” off the header end of your 6 gen midpipe.

This trimming is what we have found gets the alignment of the 6 gen twin muffler assembly lined up w 5 gen headers.

It was all you guys SF & Duc, you da men! 

Money sent!   I can now start removing the old headers.   Hope everyone follows thru now!

Fingers crossed. I think your payment makes at least six, which is the minimum Wade will build. Come on people!

paid up too .  

love this forum and the passionate people in/on it.  ....

parts of what brought me back to a honda V4 all be it a 20yr old 5th gen. 

Thank you all

Hey guys

Back on the RapidBike Racing and the Gen 8 VFR.

Here is the RB Application table showing the Gen 8 does use the single 12mm narrow band O2 as long as you buy the correct kit and wiring loom.

I've highlighted the parts in question.

[image: image.thumb.png.8636b5537539d71e6d852fb8472cd6fc.png]

Cheers

Phil

PS. The new Gen 8 headers on my modded Gen6/5 are working really well after I added 2 18mm bungs to support the factory narrow bands.

The RB MyTuningBike unit is working really well and the power is much more spread compared to my home built system, based on the Shark RC45 system, I've been running for the past years.

Good investment all rounds.

Phil

Any update on 5/6g round 2 ?

15 hours ago, boOZZIE

Any update on 5/6g round 2 ?

SF and I were texting one another on Monday while he was meeting with Wade. Looks like he’s moving forward ordering the parts and pieces. Since SF was the one who last spoke with Wade, I’ll let him give the details as far as timelines and such.  Note that his and my work schedules are pretty full, so updates may be late evening or near end of the week. If not for having to wait for my client to show up, I’d probably not be lurking here right now. 
 

End of year always seems to through a wrench in the works but we’re looking good here now!

Read this whole thread and you guys are unbelievable, well done! I really want to buy a set for my 5th gen and would happily pay up now and have them sent to Australia if i'm not too late!!