5th & 6th VFR 800 Header build

Ok,  time to start a new thread concerning the VFR 800 5th gen header build.

For starters,  the who.  Gabe is a high end fabricator, that owns and operates Rampage Fabrication in Olympia & Tacoma Wa. His back ground is in high end turbo manifolds and inter cooler plumping, so tubes are his thing. He is the one actually doing the hands on creation. I'm just orchestrating the process  and handling the R&D and working the funds do to just that,  along with taking the funds for orders and answering questions as they come about. 

As it stands now,  this first round is to find out just what will work in creation and fitment wise, to make more HP. This is not a knock off replacement header,  but a true hand made performance header similar to what  Erion Racing and 2 Bros. have had available in the past.     Then once all that R&D  is done,  a final price can be made,   The target goal is $800.00,  but depending on how it goes will say for sure.  Then there's shipping to where ever.

The headers will at first have no 02 bungs,  but there will be an option for that for the 6th gens, or,  if so desired.    A side note; This will be center stand user friendly.

 Full exhaust could be an option. It's Only $$$   Gabe and I have talked about this,  as the exit will have a 2' OD and most stock systems only have a 50mm that matches the stock outlet.  So there's that to see if there is enough interests vs. making up an adapter.  I'm running around options in my head as I have a Stainetune that's staying put,  but as it is now, it won't fit.   

Anything you need to do on your end?  Nope  ;)  Just keep an eye out on how it goes here,  and be ready to pull the trigger when they're available,  first come, first serve bases

The Go fund me is up and usable,  but just recently I'm leaning on having available a direct way of taking contributions via a web site.  Hopefully sooner than later, I'm looking at what options there are in that. Till then,  drop me a PM and will work it out.

What is it we are trying to accomplish?   Basically making replication from the 2Bro header that's a proven design.    I'm a bit more motivated now as I just landed the unattainable, taking the guess work out of what there truly is,  just not hearsay.

  They will be made here in Olympia Wa. US of A

 Went up today to see Gabe and worked out some details.  He ordered up some tubes  and got the low down on the 2Bro I was able to get my hands on. So full steam ahead. He saw some parts that he could be improved upon,  thinking I'd see better numbers,  IDK,  until I do a Dyno run,  we won't know for sure,  but we're off and running.  Hopefully in a couple weeks we will have it where things can start being put together. That said  I'm Now on the hunt for a donor VFR to work from.  As I'll be installing the 2 bro on my vfr and doing a dyno run to see how it all compares shortly  But while my VFR is in that state, it would be way easier and faster if I had another VFR to work with for fitment reasoning's.   I also find the the center stand works,  so now we know that's not an issues to have in place.    In addition I find the 2bro weighs in at a hefty 7.1 lbs  vs. 9.8lbs  for the 98-99,  A bit of savings for sure.

 [image: DSC02184_zpswa8fmwuq.jpg]

Getting it figured out.

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Just a wee bit of difference huh. That's a 98-99 header on the bottom of the photo .

[image: DSC02181_zpsm8gr7w1m.jpg]

This is just beyond words! Something is actually happening [emoji3][emoji23]?

Sure is.     The infamous 2 Bro back from the media blasting guy,  My My,  looking good too.

[image: DSC02186_zpsewidogvc.jpg]

Holy shit this is actually happening. I'm a bit worried when it comes to cost for me though, I imagine $800 USD plus shipping is gonna put it out of reach for me for now.

Continuing on from your last thread, thanks for the info! Maybe editing your first post on here with that information would help out others who are wondering the same.

It looks like you're just now able to start this up after years of waiting. Because of that, I'll kindly wait for the logistics of this great project to be sorted out before I  move forward with this, but I am interested in a full system. At least mid-pipe fitment can be guaranteed and won't leak, since I'm sure mid-pipes from company to company are slightly different. Or, you could just make a shorty like RLS does with their exhausts for various bikes to simplify things. Just a thought.

I'm just thinking aloud, but I wonder if adding H-pipes on the primaries would help improve or balance the flow? Just something I thought of when looking at some FZ-09 headers. The Smaltmoto RSV4 headers use an H-Pipe as well, but on the secondaries.

But anyway, congrats on the startup! I'm sure a lot of folks on here will be happy to see some development on VFR800 headers.

Airisom thanks,  I'll do just that,  but know some of this will change a bit as it moves along.  

I have a donor bike if you need it but getting it to you might be a task. It doesn't run at the moment, there's a leak in the one of the heads (perhaps all 4) but it is a complete bike that can be rolled around and has all the body work and even a center stand!

SMH ;) if only you where closer,  as you did come to mind.  Thanks. 

27 minutes ago, RVFR

SMH ;) if only you where closer,  as you did come to mind.  Thanks. 

If it really becomes a must have, let me know and maybe we can find a volunteer who would be willing to transport it up to you.

[emoji1591] you are the MAN RVFR, thanks for all the R&D and being the technical guy that we need ta get her done



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Looks like collectors on 2bro is a place for improvement?

Nice.  I have $ in on the 'go fund me' site, can they be applied towards possible purchase?  The other thread is so long I can't remember if you've answered this question already, if so, sorry.

ACE

Def. interested but would need to have final info on the 02 bungs and outlet pipe dia for a workaround for the 6th gen.  I too have Staintunes and I'm not getting rid of them on my 07 RWB.

Check and make sure the exhaust studs are the same distance apart on 5th and 6th Gens. I was messing with a 5th Gen 2Bros on a 6th and the flange wouldn't fit over the studs. A slotted flange would solve that, as opposed to just round holes. 

On the other hand, these headers are so long out of production, and passed through multiple hands, so it's tough to say exactly what model they were originally intended for. 

Yea Kev,  interesting and good you brought that up on the 2bro i just got for the template, Gabe saw that the flange was bent like it was over tighten,  so he had it to make that part so that would happen. With that,  I'll make sure your concern is addressed  thanks ;)

51Nick,  do you have a photo of the Staintune there fitting up to what I believe would be the stock 6th gen mid pipe?  Like you. My Staintune is staying put. I All ready know it wouldn't just slip on like it does now,  so that's going to be fixed.   Thing is, here with the 6th gen is where to make that part work so it fits correctly.  Yes o2 bungs will be added on a as needed bases. as far as where,  pretty much going by where they need to be with the stock location. 

I hope you're not copying the TBR on the assumption that they had developed their system on a dyno... They weren't selling these headers to racers, so I'm sure TBR's product developers were mainly concerned with ease of installation, appearance and cost.  How much time do you want to spend optimising the design?  None of us are racers, either!

Ciao,

Does the staintune use the stock exhaust gasket?  Some slip on manufacturers (Micron for sure, IDK about others) went with a direct connection.

JZH.. well sorta,  they had something up their sleeve in the design to make more HPs.  or at the least have the engine run more efficient,  now had they done a dyno test?  After talking to them more than once, to different folks where I was trying to get them to make one of their designed headers,  OML,  they claimed they never made a full system.    SMH WHAT!  hells bells. there's even an add on the internet showing they did.  Just goes to show how unimportant the VFR is.  But afters seeing 3 other dyno pulls on other 5th gens. Mohawk for one,  shows a 8-10 hp increase.  just saying.    I'm planning on doing a dyno pull here on the header that gets built.  Speaking of that , I just landed a 99 VFR for the test mule  :)

MadS,    What gasket?  My Staintune slips on the stock outlet like the stock muffler does,  though they say use some high temp silicon in the install,  I just use WD40,  there's  no gasket required.  6th gens?  

5 hours ago, RVFR

51Nick,  do you have a photo of the Staintune there fitting up to what I believe would be the stock 6th gen mid pipe?  Like you. My Staintune is staying put. I All ready know it wouldn't just slip on like it does now,  so that's going to be fixed.   Thing is, here with the 6th gen is where to make that part work so it fits correctly.  Yes o2 bungs will be added on a as needed bases. as far as where,  pretty much going by where they need to be with the stock location. 

RVFR - I'll try to get you a shot in the next day or so.  My exhaust collector that the pipe connects to is under the bike so I'm not sure what mid pipe you're talking about.  The Staintune has a mid pipe that goes up to the underseat mufflers.  I'll get you shot of the connection of that pipe to the factory exhaust.

The gasket I believe that RS51Kick is referring to, would be on the exit pipe. You can just make it out on the 98-99 header on the bottom.

[image: IMG_3253_zpscf1hqn1k.jpg]

Gasket. This 1? 

[image: 20170325_103419.jpg]

Yep, that's the gasket in both of the above posts.  My micron low and mig high both attach without the gasket (the inlet to the midpipe is smaller in diameter). 

This will be an issue for systems that use the gasket (stock and aftermarket) if you intend to have a larger diameter outlet from the performance system than the inside diameter of the gasket.  Obviously now the gasket won't fit and the midpipe will need to be modified to fit whatever outlet comes from the performance headers.

This can be avoided if the outlet diameter of the header is the same diameter as the outside of the gasket.  Then you just run those systems gasketless.

Can then outlet just be the stock size please?  That way I can run my Micron or Staintune as was designed.

Art

Hi Jay - thanks for kicking the can further down the street than anyone before you.

I am curious how the 2" exit came to be. When this began on vfrw, the specified intent was an outlet compatible with stock position and size, ie it was to be built for your Staintune on your 5 gen, but this statement caused my curiosity:

Quote #1  " as the exit will have a 2' OD and most stock systems only have a 50mm that matches the stock outlet.  So there's that to see if there is enough interests vs. making up an adapter.  I'm running around options in my head as I have a Stainetune that's staying put,  but as it is now, it won't fit."

Question #1 The inference in this quote leads me to ask, "Does the Two Brothers header assembly has a different diameter and/or collector exit tube position than stock headers?"  [If so, please disregard questions #2 and #3]

Question #2 - Why would we want a different outlet diameter than stock? Wouldn't that cause fitment problems between the header assembly and midpipe for everyone, given that aftermarket systems are based on bolting up the stock collector exit pipe?

Quote #2 " I All ready know it [RVFR's Staintune] wouldn't just slip on like it does now,  so that's going to be fixed "

Question #3 Why do we plan on starting with a configuration that will require "to be fixed" instead of just fitting?

9 hours ago, MadScientist

Yep, that's the gasket in both of the above posts.  My micron low and mig high both attach without the gasket (the inlet to the midpipe is smaller in diameter). 

This will be an issue for systems that use the gasket (stock and aftermarket) if you intend to have a larger diameter outlet from the performance system than the inside diameter of the gasket.  Obviously now the gasket won't fit and the midpipe will need to be modified to fit whatever outlet comes from the performance headers.

This can be avoided if the outlet diameter of the header is the same diameter as the outside of the gasket.  Then you just run those systems gasketless.

When I installed my Staintune system (purchased used) I removed the stock gasket since it wouldn't allow the Staintune pipe to slip over it..  Just slipped the Staintune mid over the Honda outlet and clamped it down.  No issues and no leaks.

Three different slip-on pipes here. Two Brothers, Scorpion, and GPR. The latter is a high mount. The Two Brothers is the only one that requires the stock gasket as the mid-pipe clamp area is slightly larger than the others.

Thats what I wanted to hear Nick, thanks

SF.. Sorry to sorta make it confusing with that statement.   I'm in a spot where at the moment I'm kinda leaning one way or another with the 2bro & Staintune fitment. A re look has it there's only 2mm difference,  meaning the Staintune needs to be stretched a bit if that's even possible,  no way I'm I putting the Staintune in a clamp vise and get it all marred up,   or the 2bro needs to shrink ;)   my original thoughts where to run the size of the 2bro all the way out,  seeing I'm leaning on more flow.   LOL I'll be having a conversion with Mr. Valasco on this, but rest assured I'll figure this out for the best of all. 

I am against the stock size outlet.  If we want a performance system, diameters will have to increase.  It is easy enough to take your midpipe and have the outlet expanded, or just buy the tool from harbor freight.

We are talking 2ish mm here, which should be doable.

^ +1
That's what's it all about for me to! This is 90% engine breathing and 10% aesthetics for me at least.

+1 for me as well. Should be performance based and work with majority of slip on options straight away. Though I have a Wolf and have yet to even consider what that will mean yet.

Will go measure today/tomorrow.


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Awe.. cool,  just was able to confirm the use of another 5th gen VFR. Sweet,  that speeds things up,  plus this will allow me to do side by side dyno runs with out taking the bike apart again and again,  Shall be interesting what comes out of this.  Yep,  the whole idea behind all this is to get the most output of our VFR for the money. 

http://www.burnsstainless.com/bendquality.aspx

Found this while searching for exhaust pics. Anybody know who this is?? Interesting design.

[image: Honda V4 Side][image: Honda V4][image: Honda V4 Angle][image: Honda V4]

Just ignore my post please [image: emoji6.png]

Dead link and 2 missing pics. I have not seen this before, but looks good and left exit?

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9 minutes ago, RDMcD

http://www.burnsstainless.com/bendquality.aspx

Found this while searching for exhaust pics. Anybody know who this is?? Interesting design.

If memory serves me right, we did start discussion with Dan but they went silent after a few emails, then we went with Tyga...

Just thinking if someone has been down this road before it might be worth picking their brain and seeing if it was dynode.

After rereading it says the customers name was Dan Yoder .[image: dsc_8402.jpg?itok=o1-V4BDX]

9 minutes ago, RDMcD

Just thinking if someone has been down this road before it might be worth picking their brain and seeing if it was dynode.

After rereading it says the customers name was Dan Yoder .

Oops, it was Rod. His company is Hi/Perform

http://www.hiperform.com/exhaust.htm

Cool. Glad to hear that definite objectives are still being developed. Better to be making decisions than not. Getting stuck "ready, aim, aim, aim, aim" would be a drag.

Performance as a priority makes sense. My subjective opinion is that the wide powerband and amazing rideability shoudn't be sacrificed for even 4 or 6hp at redline.

RVFR and Mbrane, thanks for clarifying that we are talking about three distinct designs and exit collector locations / sizes.

RVFR, it sounds like you are considering using one loaner 5 gen to dyno a soecific exhaust configuration, then a 2nd 5 gen to dyno a second exhaust configuration with the goal being to compare the exhausts' performance. This saves the labor and time required to swap exhausts, but introduces many bike-specific variables. Just my $0.02

I thought the second bike was for fitment while the first bike was for Dyno runs.

One for the fitment, two for the dyno, three to get ready...go Vif go!

Well you two,  my vfr is getting the 2 bro on it as we speak. I'd like to get a dyno pull comparing what I have all ready    Thing is,  I also have a piper-rcross air filter to add,  so maybe just to know, I may if Mike is nice enough,  to do a a air filter comparo while at it.  But the goal here is to see how this 2bro does. Then from that start heading a certain direct with the header build. Yes the other VFR is for fitment. but if all goes as planned, Ha-ha when does that ever happen.  Since it will be all mounted up, might as well throw it up on the dyno as well. it's a good running stock 99 model,  so should be close to how mine is, less the PC tune I have all ready, would make for a good base line to go by,  I'll have to check it's air filter,  I want to make it as close to apples and apples as I can,  this saves me taking that header off and reinstalling on mi vfr,  which could happen if there's a big difference in the numbers. ;) it's all about the numbers,   Right?  On ward ho as they say. 

just a minor up date here. Gabe got call on a good offer to build a inter cooler for a GTR35 for a sshow on the 22nd a nissan feast of sorts so this week and next has been tight for him to do much. He has some of the bends now waiting on some free time. As mentioned,  I lined up a loner vfr a 99,  woot woot. but actually won't haven't in place till the 4-8 ,  so that will speed things up a bit. Things are still in the pipe moving forward,  just not much in the way of new news,  that and I decided to ride the viffer one more time before the tear down, that and played with what's needed for the de-link, But all is good.  stay tune,  it's a happening.

just requoting specs from rush from the initial thread (I haven't seen people pick it up) , in my eyes this was key for best performance:

Good to know I'm on the right path Rippie thanks    Things are moving along in the right direction,  slow , but moving forward. I got the Viffer torn down where the the stock exhaust is off,  now ready for the 2 Bro.  Only thing *&^@!   while in the process for the exchange,  I find the Penske shock I got last year is leaking in the adjustment area, :(  So while I have it all apart,  figure this is as good as it can get time to get that taken care of as well.  So while that's off being taken care of,  might as well start on the De link  ;)  Rest assured once its all back together,  we're heading to the dyno to find out just how well this 2Bro makes things run.   from that I'll know how to proceed with the Gabe header.

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Just a little difference huh.

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Finally had a moment  to check the 2Bro fitment. First the center stand looks doable,  but I tell ya, it took a bit of &^%! and stretch and push-pull to get into place.  This could be one item to address,  first off thoughts have it where the front primary's are like the rear,  separate.  Other wise,  it's still looking to be a close fit for the center stand.  The rest is looking ok.  More later.  I wore out a Dremel brush,  now need a new one to clean the rear exhaust ports before I attack the rears

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Updated list

 X - Still interested

N/A - 8G Not Applicable

* - Price dependent 

Rush2112 -             ?

RVFR                       X

JDMBird -               X*

CornerCarver -

CornerCarver -

jim v -                       X

Wera803

FJ12Ryder              X

MBrane -                 X*

MBrane -                 X*

dgordon                  X

AWP34                    X

Beesting unlikely 11/15 last sign in

Mello Dude

jnyquist unlikely 11/15 last sign in 

artpongs                 X

WackenSS              X

RazorWing

Kenn                        X

MadScientist -        X

sdouble (8th gen) N/A

HRCCBR -                X 

boOZZIE -                X

huntinggunns (8G) N/A

jerritt                        X*

VFRRR -                   X

smoke4ndmears (8G) N/A

Aimbot9000 -         X*

JZH                          X

Havelock                 X

Bret                          X

gmtech94               X

RC51Nick                X

3dcycle                    X

sfdownhill               X

interceptor69          X

Airisom                    X

Wow Jay - you've got that engine gleaming!

Airisom- X

I had a few minutes this afternoon,  just had to see how the rear was going to align up.   Cozy, yet looking good, now for the center stand. amazing what a couple 3mm makes.  I wouldn't want my pinky in the way . 

[image: DSC02219_zps4veydasi.jpg]

[image: DSC02220_zpszf4x9cic.jpg]

RVFR - Any chance your builder does ceramic coating?  If he can (or has a preferred local shop to do it before shipment) that would be convenient for me and probably some others on the list.  Can't hurt to ask, I figure.

Good question,  since this is Stainless, I didn't think about coating.  I'll ask. ;)

RDMcD, 3/25/2017 at 4:56 PM

http://www.burnsstainless.com/bendquality.aspx

Found this while searching for exhaust pics. Anybody know who this is?? Interesting design.

[image: Honda V4 Side][image: Honda V4][image: Honda V4 Angle][image: Honda V4]

Hey All!

Not sure what I can contribute here on this discussion other than building a full on custom exhaust for a VFR was the things nightmares are made of haha! That is my bike above and I did build the exhaust from scratch. This was my first exhaust build and I learned alot...particularly I learned not the build a V4 exhaust ever again. Mostly joking here, it was a blast to build. If you guys read the article on Burns site you read the issues I had with the first bends i bought...that set back back quite a bit. I did back purge all welds and used ZERO filler...just super tight fit ups and my TIG. I have a buddy of mine who welds stainless tubing for milk processing and they dont use filler either. If you have a good fit with no gaps its actually pretty easy.

I used a racefit can from John..at racefit. Of course I had to chop it down even more. It does exit from the right still My VFR sounds like a caged animal! Its not everyones tastes, especially how loud it is but I love it.

I went into this aiming to NOT loose any HP or Torque. I figured if I could at least get it as good as stock I would be in business. I was delighted to find I gained 10hp and 2.5ft/lbs of Torque!

This bike has been a work in progress over the last 4 years but I think its done now...I think.

Cheers!

[image: IMG_4532.JPG]

[image: IMG_2860.JPG]

[image: IMG_2869.JPG]

[image: FullSizeRender.jpg]

Nice,  thanks for sharing this.    LOL ain't VFRs fun to work with.  Looks good,  especially the numbers,  you did very good. IMO.  

RVFR, 4/11/2017 at 5:19 PM

Nice,  thanks for sharing this.    LOL ain't VFRs fun to work with.  Looks good,  especially the numbers,  you did very good. IMO.  

Haha...yeah they are a dream :pinocchio: Thank you!

After today's de link,    the header is a snap.

dailyrider Hey All!
 
Not sure what I can contribute here on this discussion other than building a full on custom exhaust for a VFR was the things nightmares are made of haha! That is my bike above and I did build the exhaust from scratch. This was my first exhaust build and I learned alot...particularly I learned not the build a V4 exhaust ever again. Mostly joking here, it was a blast to build. If you guys read the article on Burns site you read the issues I had with the first bends i bought...that set back back quite a bit. I did back purge all welds and used ZERO filler...just super tight fit ups and my TIG. I have a buddy of mine who welds stainless tubing for milk processing and they dont use filler either. If you have a good fit with no gaps its actually pretty easy.
 
I used a racefit can from John..at racefit. Of course I had to chop it down even more. It does exit from the right still My VFR sounds like a caged animal! Its not everyones tastes, especially how loud it is but I love it.
 
I went into this aiming to NOT loose any HP or Torque. I figured if I could at least get it as good as stock I would be in business. I was delighted to find I gained 10hp and 2.5ft/lbs of Torque!
 
This bike has been a work in progress over the last 4 years but I think its done now...I think.
 
Cheers!
 
[image: IMG_4532.thumb.JPG.3fc4c3669cec99343d918cdfd4e0e213.JPG]
[image: IMG_2860.thumb.JPG.d7696504f646c85339776a3c4b14ded0.JPG]
[image: IMG_2869.thumb.JPG.d95109ff9f514d6e849a1804766870a8.JPG]
[image: FullSizeRender.thumb.jpg.be0609ab9019ec9ed0b67c196c1c19e1.jpg]

Grr,  small bump in the road,  After a lot of fiddling it comes to my attention the #2 primary is stonkered, It won't seat. I took the 2bro off and  tired a many different ways,  Nope,  ain't going in,  and there's no way the exhaust studs can handle that much stress.  So it's looking to have to be cut and reattached in that is the trick since Gabe isn't portable,  the Viffer has to go to him.  Luckily the shock showed up last night, at least I can now get it on the ground rolling. Now to get the trailer back in shape. 

[image: DSC02241.JPG]

Have u changed something since 10 april, pics u posted had them fitting and buttoned up.....

Well mostly buttoned

Could u scribe the end to the angle and cut/grind?

Or is it a case of not enough length and the bend is out

Ah no,  nothing changed.   Yea those photos was a quick pop it in there just to see and share,  all seemed good until the final push for #2 , I went back to make sure it wasn't me going about it the difficult way, re did it all,  made sure all joints where going the way they where suppose too.  Nope.  that #2 primary is twerked some how.  so now it's down to a couple solutions,  cut and re weld are like a couple shops suggested or heat it up an twist it back in place.  Being it's on the VFR kinda going Hmm with the heat it up aprouch but makes sense to a degree as long as I don't cook the oil in the pan while at it nor burn through the header, little steps here,  even Gabe agreed the heat it up is probably  the way to go, cut and weld is second. That being said,  I had it in mind to cut both #2 and #4 making slip joints like the rear two, but can't find anyone with a 11/2"  tubing stretcher. Gabe says he can get one but may take a couple weeks,  I don't have a couple weeks, I have it planned to have this all button down and dyno'd,  know whats going on before the ride to S Ca.at the end of May

Well well that was fun  I see some more things to make better,  like header flanges.  SMH  With a few fine words going to 2Bro for making such a cheap product at a glorious price.    I was able to,  Fingers crossed they set right, get the header buttoned up. But it took some serious heat.     

[image: DSCF0983.JPG]

RVFR Well well that was fun  I see some more things to make better,  like header flanges.  SMH  With a few fine words going to 2Bro for making such a cheap product at a glorious price.    I was able to,  Fingers crossed they set right, get the header buttoned up. But it took some serious heat.     
[image: DSCF0983.thumb.JPG.8b644077c4251fe16d03130d176c80b1.JPG]

Well shes up and running. Now waiting on Gabe to figure out the Staintune connection,  in the mean time.    Oh what a sound, pure music. 

[image: DSCF0986.JPG]

:cheerleader:

I can't here it!! :wink:

Sorry the video I have is on my sons phone,  but if you have FB,  you could see it there ;)  talk about Moto gp like exhaust.  https://www.facebook.com/groups/hondavfr800/?multi_permalinks=1479788652095466&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&notif_id=1493509429832491

The Viffer is scheduled to be dyno'd next Tuesday the 9th, If you can, send a prayer all goes well and certain expectations are some what met.

April 29, 2017 at 10:24 AM, RVFR, Saturday

Well shes up and running. Now waiting on Gabe to figure out the Staintune connection,  in the mean time.    Oh what a sound, pure music. 

[image: DSCF0986.JPG]

Have u added a bit at the outlet there?

LOL what? ;)   That's the 2bro mid pipe that slips on to the collector,  kinda cool looking, almost.   it's kinda growing on me the way it is,  SMH,      Actually I will have the Staintune hooked up using part of that mid pipe.   as much as I like the rear wheel being all out there,  it's also missing something IMO 

Yeah sorry :wacko:

all the best for dyno time on Tuesday and are you gonna get it on video :491:

I'm still interested in the new header but after looking closely while changing my oil last week I'm concerned about getting the old ones removed safely.  That's what 19 years of Tennessee weather will do...

[image: 20170430_132450_resized.jpg]

[image: 20170430_132503_resized.jpg]

[image: 20170430_132516_resized.jpg]

[image: 20170430_132524_resized.jpg]

Ooo   ;)  spray em down a couple days before with some good ole Aerokroil,  then a little tap tap should, I say should, come off. 

Also wanted to share the glorious sound of those gear driven cams for those who don't have this Gen VFR.

20170430_132354.mp4

Ok another step closer. I got the Staintune hooked up. ;)  Boy is Gabe good.

[image: DSCF0997_zpsz2y9jzlk.jpg]

No close up, but looks like a cut and re-weld was necessary.  IIRC, the TBR collector output is positioned slightly different from OEM so simply expanding the midpipe was a no-go.  Job looks clean, you going to polish it back up?

Yep that it was,   cut the Staintune mid pipe, cut the slip on mid pipe from the 2Bro,  added new 2" tubing, bingo.   Ya know, I had planned to polish this up, But Gabe did such a really  fine job, one has to look close to find the welds, and the transition is behind the passenger foot peg hanger so you can't really see the difference at first,  IDK I kinda like it the way it is.. we'll see.

Here ya go,   a couple close ups ;)

[image: DSCF0999_zpsfogxis6l.jpg]

[image: DSCF1002_zpsu2dzll6a.jpg] 

and an extra for the fun of it.

[image: DSCF1003_zpsm5cuygfw.jpg]

Beautiful welds

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Your Gabe is a welding wizard-some of the nicest work I've ever seen. I'd leave it the way it is-nice contrast.

This is coming along beautifully. Cant wait to see some dyno action tomorrow!

Yea,  I'm pretty stoked to get the Viffer on the Dyno too. ;)   That being said, yesterdays outing was sorta enlightening, if this 2Bro & Piper set up doesn't make more HPs,  It surely makes the Viffe want to Rev right now.  Very fluid to the throttle response. Not sure about my Butt dyno,  but the way it pulled through 3rd 4th, & 5th makes me smile,  oh lordy, does she go. 

Not that this has anything to do with the header build, on the De- link, Wow!  This should be a first of to happen right there with suspension fixes IMO.   OMG does this Viffer stop now. Good thing too,  now that its got more get up and go. huh ;)

Do you think that you have unleashed all of the factory power? You could be in the history books!  I knew somebody would find the magic.  :goofy:

We will see about that tomorrow, but since there's a couple non factory up grades, I can't really call it unleashing the factory power can I?    ;)

On Our way to the Dyno...

[image: DSCF0998.JPG]

place your bets, some guesses from my side :+):

115-118bhp if you cant play with the advance, with short tuning run

118-122bhp if you can play with advance, and full tuning spectrum with 3-5h of tuning

122bhp+ if you can take the time to individually map each cilinder since they left back is 4% worse performing.

gogo ! veeeery curious

Yeah he isn't using a Rapid bike, so tuning will be the normal, single fuel map. No ignition timing or individual cylinder tuning will be done...

But adding 6-10 hp on top of his previous dyno should be within reason. I remember his last Dyno run being very cold, in the 40s or 50s, so that might count against this run (even though all runs will be converted to std conditions), so I am going with 112+6= 118whp.

Well Well,  not actually the first try out come I was looking for,  still doesn't explain how well the Viffer purrs. Still.  there's room for figuring out whats what.  one item of interests is the Piper cross air filter.  not that i'm thinking it's the total reason When Mike heard me say that I also added a new air filter he shook his head. It almost makes sense that its got a hold of the air wanting in.  so the next round,  next week hopefully,  I'll re install the KN and do a do over. I ain't done yet.

Green is before anything.  Blue is the 2bros and piper.  Red is the tune done last year with the stock header and KN.  Go figure huh 

[image: DSCF1024_zpsqgvynzra.jpg]

a video for your curiosity

Here's the fuel map for those interested.

[image: DSCF1025_zpsqhcdo5b1.jpg]

You should try a DIY air filter.  I'm pretty sure Mohawk or sa1713 pioneered this technique, but I'm having trouble locating the post.  Briefly, the stock filter backing plastic is used with the paper element cut out.  Ideally the hole is cut to the size of the largest K&N generic filter that will fit inside the backing plastic.  I wanted to find the thread, since it notes what K&N model fits best. 

It's known that the stock air filter has a much larger area than the K&N.  I believe K&N themselves have said that the replacement filter for the VFR is smaller in area, but flows more than stock paper.  This leads to roughly the same total airflow as stock.  As below from the gallery of Serenity_VFR:

[image: gallery_7252_5239_33484.jpg]

Thanks,  funny you bring this up.  I'm looking all over the inter net for what i thought was a newer style KN,  but it's a knock off with a larger surface area.  IDK what goes into making a filter do what it does. but that idea is a good one. Might just have to try this on for size. I also have an extra air box to play with too. First I'll give the KN another chance but something tells me it won't help,  if much,   it's all trial and error now.  Just hard to believe the results, especially after what Mike saw the results where,  everything points to better performance, smh. This wasn't his first rodeo,  so if he's surprised there's something a miss.     

I performed simulation and testing of HVAC systems once upon a time (google DARPA Immune Building).  Needless to say, there is no free lunch with air filters, even with fancy engineered synthetic fiber media.  At the scale of a motorcycle or automotive air filter, there is very little gain to be had as far as flowrate vs pressure drop by switching materials at a constant particle removal efficiency.  The only ways to make real flow gains are to a) increase filter area, b) increase pore size, c) increase the pressure across filter (pressurize unfiltered side).

So we are limited on filter area by the airbox itself.  Ideally, we would want to maximize the filter area within our constrained space.  A foam filter looks like it does this because it covers the whole opening, but this is false.  Pleated filters may appear to be smaller, but once you flatten out the pleats, the area can be much larger.  In order to flow more air with foam of less area, we must then make the pore size and porosity much higher wider and higher, but this kills the particle removal properties... so we add oil and multi-stage filtration to increase our capture efficiency and reduce the thickness of "fine" filtration which we can't afford to block with large particles.  This isn't free either though, we have to choose between clogging up every ride, or letting some particulate through. 

You can make design decisions to let particles smaller than a certain size through, and this is how gains are often realized with oiled cotton or engineered synthetics.  I didn't work on filtration for internal combustion engines, so I don't really know the design specifics but there is often (but not always) some sacrifice in filtration efficiency with a new filter because you want it to have a reasonable service life.

I just realized this is turning into an air filtration treatise, so I'm just going to post it.  But I'll get to the point real quick below

Dry Paper/Synthetic Fiber - Best choice for engine longevity, reasonable flow, and particulate capacity

Oiled Cotton/Synthetic - Sacrifices allowing some smaller particles in = (marginally?) decreased engine longevity, increased flowrate, theoretically higher total holding capacity

Foam - Major sacrifices in filtration efficiency because construction demands lower total area, flowrate? depending on pore size and porosity, lower total area = lower holding capacity

On racing machines that are rebuilt frequently and have fresh filters before every race, foam has some performance benefits.  If the foam is designed with the level of protection required by a daily driver, then you will be lucky to flow as much as stock even with reduced filtration efficiency.  For a daily rider, this would be my last choice.

Ideally I would have a dry, pleated, engineered synthetic fiber behind a foam pre-filter.  The foam would protect the expensive synthetic from large and macroscopic particles but would need to be washed monthly, allowing the much finer filter to have a reasonable service life.  I don't know of any filters like this on the market though.

Nice info right there [image: emoji4.png]

Whatever you do with filtration, there is not amounts of power hidden away due to OEM paper filters. The big aftermarket brands try to create this illusion.

But hey, if the 0.4 hp hunt is on, it's on! [image: emoji6.png]


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Found this of an interesting read..   your thoughts? 

28 minutes ago, RVFR

Found this of an interesting read..   your thoughts? 

Going for even more topend?

Well something to note here with Mohawks 5th gen,  info on his avatar looks to be he has a 2000 version, which we know all ready has the smaller primary's, to the 98-99, hence why with adding the 2Bro he did better,  I wonder what would be the results had he had a 98-99 header?  other wise the dyno at this time in his up grades compared to what I have ain't all that bad  Eh.  Just did better with the stock header  SMH go figure,  still what MadSc writes with foam vs pleated filter media,  this may shed some light,  after a look over of the fueling I think I'm running a tad rich. would the KN automatically fix this ?   I'm waiting on a contact at EBR to confirm my suspicion.     

47 minutes ago, RVFR

Well something to note here with Mohawks 5th gen,  info on his avatar looks to be he has a 2000 version, which we know all ready has the smaller primary's, to the 98-99, hence why with adding the 2Bro he did better,  I wonder what would be the results had he had a 98-99 header?  other wise the dyno at this time in his up grades compared to what I have ain't all that bad  Eh.  Just did better with the stock header  SMH go figure,  still what MadSc writes with foam vs pleated filter media,  this may shed some light,  after a look over of the fueling I think I'm running a tad rich. would the KN automatically fix this ?   I'm waiting on a contact at EBR to confirm my suspicion.     

If the K&N actually does flow more air than the Piper Cross, then technically it should lean things out due to more air but I'm not going to pretend I know anything about airflow and exhaust. That being said, Honda did implement the flapper valve to create different airflow/pressure for a reason. I assume that the flapper/snorkel mod were performed before the initial dyno run, yes? If it wasn't, and was done prior to this last run, maybe this also contributed to the difference in numbers.

Not sure Mohawk's current primary setup can be compared, I know he's got a build thread with various dyno graphs after certain mods. 

Anyway, I'm not sure that the pipercross flows more or less air than the stock/K&N replacement.  Depends on the specifics of the filter material, I'm just saying that to flow as much or more than stock with a foam filter, there would have to be compromises made that I wouldn't make on a daily driven street bike.  I don't have a flow bench or filtration box at my disposal any more; I already know how these tests can be manipulated to show things manufacturers want to advertise and comparing "specs" between manufacturers is almost impossible when they don't publish all the testing variables.  For example:

"High dust capacity

Our filters have undergone independant MIRA testing and results showed Pipercross foam has the ability to hold more than twice the dust particles of that held by cotton-gauze filters, without affecting the airflow efficiency."

Twice in what regard?  Filters of the same area or filters of the same weight.  If weight, is that with or without oil?  What size dust particles?  How much was the cotton gauze airflow efficiency affected?  See what I mean.  Multi stage filtration like that used by Pipercross will be able to handle larger particles better than single stage paper or cotton, but are these the particles that are most common in an on-road vehicle filter?  Are these the particles responsible for the most engine wear?  I can ask questions all day because of the lack of transparency.

I'm running a BMC  if that is any help....

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/18291/i/bmc-air-filter

20 hours ago, RVFR

Thanks,  funny you bring this up.  I'm looking all over the inter net for what i thought was a newer style KN,  but it's a knock off with a larger surface area.  IDK what goes into making a filter do what it does. but that idea is a good one. Might just have to try this on for size. I also have an extra air box to play with too. First I'll give the KN another chance but something tells me it won't help,  if much,   it's all trial and error now.  Just hard to believe the results, especially after what Mike saw the results where,  everything points to better performance, smh. This wasn't his first rodeo,  so if he's surprised there's something a miss.     

 I have one of those larger surface area K&N's. I read on the forums all about how the K&N was a lousy filter with a small surface area. Knowing the PO installed a K&N I went and ordered a Pipercross. 

When I lifted the tank to take a gander I saw this:
[image: TJ8mJC3.jpg]

Not the tiny surface area K&N I was expecting. The pipercross sits on the shelf. I was gonna install it but now after seeing your dyno.....hmmmmm

Good god.. I've looked high and low as there was a rumor that KN did have a lager version,  any chance you have a part number,  the one I see here looks like A-8098

3 minutes ago, RVFR

Good god.. I've looked high and low as there was a rumor that KN did have a lager version,  any chance you have a part number,  the one I see here looks like A-8098

That's the same part number on this filter. You can see it at the top right of the image. Above the K&N logo and beside the "MADE IN THE USA" writing.

Perfect  the hunt is on.  I just googled it,  nothing comes up,  then on KNs web site it says it doesn't recognize the number. Hmmm?

20 minutes ago, RVFR

Perfect  the hunt is on.  I just googled it,  nothing comes up,  then on KNs web site it says it doesn't recognize the number. Hmmm?

There might be an H infront of the A

I'll have to double check next time I take the tank off.

I say call K&N as their web site shows the HA-8098 but pictures look like the "original" size version that everyone seems to have. As most sirtes will tell you, pictures may not be of actual shipping product,

https://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?prod=HA-8098

19 hours ago, RVFR

Well something to note here with Mohawks 5th gen,  info on his avatar looks to be he has a 2000 version, which we know all ready has the smaller primary's, to the 98-99, hence why with adding the 2Bro he did better,  I wonder what would be the results had he had a 98-99 header?  other wise the dyno at this time in his up grades compared to what I have ain't all that bad  Eh.  Just did better with the stock header  SMH go figure,  still what MadSc writes with foam vs pleated filter media,  this may shed some light,  after a look over of the fueling I think I'm running a tad rich. would the KN automatically fix this ?   I'm waiting on a contact at EBR to confirm my suspicion.     

The thing is, his dyno is showing going from a Motad header (similar to the 98/99) to the Two Brothers header. Not that I am a big fan of Motad, but supposedly they are better than the +2000 factory headers. Maybe the Two brothers didn't make anymore power, maybe the Motads are just terrible lol.

Motad vs Two Brothers header. [image: 2f8bf35d58ed330ac900a510b5401b5f.jpg]

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ignitech ignijet ( ignijet05 ) got 115 bhp on my old tweaked vfr800 2000 , the guy tuning it, said he'd never played with it, but found it pretty amazing.

got to drive 20km per 1 liter and have 115bhp, the secret ponies seemed to be in the advance.

since u got the right bike , u might think of this controller as an option

i am trying to figure out how to wire that controller up on the VTEC.

1 hour ago, rippie

ignitech ignijet ( ignijet05 ) got 115 bhp on my old tweaked vfr800 2000 , the guy tuning it, said he'd never played with it, but found it pretty amazing.

got to drive 20km per 1 liter and have 115bhp, the secret ponies seemed to be in the advance.

since u got the right bike , u might think of this controller as an option

i am trying to figure out how to wire that controller up on the VTEC.

Wow is that a programmable stand alone ECU? Where was this 5 years ago when I really needed it lol?! I was searching desperately for a way to tune the ignition mapping on my 2007 vtec for years before I found Rapid Bike. Now there really isn't much need for it as Rapid Bike Racing can easily tune the fuel and ignition mapping on all 1998 and up VFR800's. I can tell you for a fact that the VTEC models respond even better to ignition advance than the older fi models. The fi models only seem to take up to 3 degrees of additional advance in the lowend, while the vtec models can take about 4-5 degrees through the whole low and midrange. I am wondering if that is why my bike and mohawks bike didnt lose any low and midrange with the Two Brothers header, because the advance brought it right back?

This is the Rapid Bike ignition map. It shows the added advance on top of the factory ignition map. This should add a decent amount of low end, some mid and little bit up top.

[image: 3bf13976445cb8620116b9feac3ae702.jpg]

I cant figure out why the picture quality is so low on here. It is perfect on my phone.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 

well that ignijet doesn't fit the VTEC , but i'm pondering on it. I have the wiring thought trough, but will have to create the connectors for conversion.

and then choose the RPM point where to engage the VTEC. I was thinking to set that at lower, maybe 4500/5500 rpm-ish.

you can still download the ignijet05 software to take a look what it can do

so rapid bike racing is also a standalone controller replacement?

17 minutes ago, rippie

well that ignijet doesn't fit the VTEC , but i'm pondering on it. I have the wiring thought trough, but will have to create the connectors for conversion.

and then choose the RPM point where to engage the VTEC. I was thinking to set that at lower, maybe 4500/5500 rpm-ish.

you can still download the ignijet05 software to take a look what it can do

so rapid bike racing is also a standalone controller replacement?

No, Rapid Bike is a piggyback controller. They are basically the Italian equivalent of power commander and bazzaz. The Rapid Bike Racing module has some extra features over anything offered by power commander and bazzaz though, because it is able to intercept and adjust the crank position sensor input, you can adjust the ignition mapping, add launch control and traction control etc. It is also self tuning via the factory narrow band o2 sensors or optional wide band o2 sensors. I have had mine for almost three years and its been great.

Here I will try to post up some higher quality photos of the ignition mapping:

6th gen ignition map from 4,200-12,200 Rpms. You can see there is 4 to 5 degrees of advance being added on top of the factory ignition mapping from around 3,000-8000 RPMs, so there is boat loads of extra low and midrange torque to be made on the 6th gens.

[image: Screenshot_20160810-164105_zpsaypzq2em.p]

6th gen ignition map from 1,600-10,000 Rpms

[image: Screenshot_20160810-164111_zps8ip9t0tz.p]

[image: Screenshot_20160810-164101_zpsrvnbq7tu.p]

5th gen Ignition mapping, which is a completely different story. The fifth gens will take 2 to 3 degrees in the partial throttle, low rpm range and when the throttle is open, 1 degree from 8500-redline.

[image: tapatalk_1492774468891_zps0fxxyyp1.png]

nice, i see cil 1-4 + 2-3 mapping , so the pairs are individually mapped, or synced?

cuz i remember seeing a honda pdf that shows the different mappings due to the different performing cilinders, maybe i can find that pdf again.

rippie nice, i see cil 1-4 + 2-3 mapping , so the pairs are individually mapped, or synced?
cuz i remember seeing a honda pdf that shows the different mappings due to the different performing cilinders, maybe i can find that pdf again.

found it! though it is not super detailed

2000_VFR800.pdf

Honda Programmable FI - How it works.pdf

I went to their website and it may be the most confusing I've yet tried to navigate. Do they offer a unit for the 1998 VFR?

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LOL ^  like you,  I find their web site kinda like not all that friendly.  But after a click here and there, looks like they are available for $444.00 if I read it right.   Hmm.  might just jump on one.   I mean why not right ;)

http://www.ignitech.cz/zdroj/en/ceniky/price list units usd.pdf

rippie nice, i see cil 1-4 + 2-3 mapping , so the pairs are individually mapped, or synced?
cuz i remember seeing a honda pdf that shows the different mappings due to the different performing cilinders, maybe i can find that pdf again.

21 hours ago, interceptor69

I went to their website and it may be the most confusing I've yet tried to navigate. Do they offer a unit for the 1998 VFR?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 

jep, I had one on my 2000 viffer , superduper :)  drove with it for 6 years, but that was waaay long ago

they do not have 1 for the vtec. i'm looking at making a wireharnass conversion for the vtec ... should be doable, hopefully i dont fry the bike haha.

All right Guys and gals,  yea it's been awhile huh,  sorry about that. Yes I've been sorta distracted,  over the Memorial weekend I went on a ride in S.Ca,   what a hoot that was. It also gave me insight to how the Viffer was running. 

[image: DSC02259_zpsc1wbbrff.jpg]

[image: DSC02266_zpsc1vpijqo.jpg]

Lets see here if I recall where I left off at. Ah yes,  so after the last dyno pull I find out the Piper cross was a tad better than the KN I had used a year earlier.  it's starting to look like the weather played a bigger part in the first tune. cold and dry air, than I would have thought. IDK the jury is still out.  What I know so far is this,  The 2 bro header is making around 4-5 hp more and a couple more foot lbs. torque,  more on the top,  where the stock header kinda gets choked off, while the 2bros makes it go all the way to 12,5K  it's still not what was recorded last year, but never the less a gain.  Now what's really fun. It's the throttle response and how it puts what gains are to use once out on the road. Oh yes,  it definitely improves acceleration big time, granted the tune in it's self help the throttle response as well,  but now it pulls seamless to redline line in 5th no problem, I mean bingo you're there,  6th, it probably would have if i hadn't run out of road. I Also did a a 6th gear roll on from 6k rpms, yea this Viffer gets up and goes.

Couple more things to throw in here.  I also was able to get my hands on what KN says they don't make, a larger filter, that in it's self is quite the story.

[image: DSC02273_zpsssidb96d.jpg]

So as of last week once back from CA,  I swapped out the piper for the new KN. I have a feeling the Viffer is in my mind running even better.  is it all in my head?  maybe, but we won't know until mid July for a another set of dyno pulls with another vfr that was in the same state of tune before the header.   So the question that's starting to show up is, is $1200 to much for this sort of gain?  

4-5 hp of top end on the Two brothers vs 98/99 header and 1 hp on KN vs Pipercross filter sounds about right. Nothing earth shattering, but definitely a noticeable gain. It will be interesting to see if the Big K&N can out the Pipercross. Worth noting, that big K&N looks to have about 24 pleats vs the smaller K&N's 15 folded pleats... More dirt capacity and more flow?

Is 1200 the final production cost?

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It's looking pretty close to that price when doing the math,  adding the KN air filter it's in the ball park  with freight and all.

My kn filter is cylindrical, and new as we speak.
So when does it ship? [image: emoji6.png]

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The one on the right has the same amount of pleats and looks to be the same size as the k&n I have for my 4th gen. The part number is HA-0003.

RVFR, 6/8/2017 at 0:42 PM

[image: DSC02273_zpsssidb96d.jpg]

Ok Moose,  you got me there, are you talking with a third 02 ?  I'll look into that,   thanks.. I think  :unsure:   Here's the deal on other use of cans of sorts.  I had to make a new mid pipe to hook up thy Staintune,  no way I was giving that up.   In that process two things, one the center-stand bummer plate. Two, Then the new angle to line up the Stainetune.  I had the the 2bros mid pipe that's used on the full system which is used with their end can, which is at the same location as the stock Muffler, so of coarse I used their mid pipe as it also has the spring slip on there as well as the bumper plate. luck had it the Staintune uses the same Diameter tubing, so it was a no hassle to do. That all said,  it may come down too what works the best for the masses, vs, may be that piece will need to be made as a special one of coupling of sorts, we'll see.  First lets get a header built ;)

I had a local muffler shop weld on two O2 sensors on my 98-99 headers for $40, don't see a need for 3 O2 sensors when one can be placed where you want it for less than a case of beer, well "good" beer!  :wink:

My feeling is that the main outlet should be placed where the stock one is located and that should cover the masses. Based on what we know, the 5 Gen headers work on the 6 gens and I'm sure vice verse but nobody I know has put a catted header on a gen that had no cat.

Since most aftermarket cans are meant to work with stock exhaust, building it like the OEM should net the greatest compatibility IMO.

17 hours ago, Duc2V4

I had a local muffler shop weld on two O2 sensors on my 98-99 headers for $40, don't see a need for 3 O2 sensors when one can be placed where you want it for less than a case of beer, well "good" beer!  :wink:

My feeling is that the main outlet should be placed where the stock one is located and that should cover the masses. Based on what we know, the 5 Gen headers work on the 6 gens and I'm sure vice verse but nobody I know has put a catted header on a gen that had no cat.

Since most aftermarket cans are meant to work with stock exhaust, building it like the OEM should net the greatest compatibility IMO.

Big +1 on Duc2V4's recommendation for OEM exit compatibility.

Hey RVFR put me down for 1 for my 6th Gen running a Rapid Bike and Leo Vince exhaust. As everyone else has been requesting I need the O2 bungs as well as I am running my center stand. Do you think early 2018 you will start production? Thanks for doing all the heavy lifting.

AWP34


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RVFR, 8/30/2017 at 8:35 PM

Ok Moose,  you got me there, are you talking with a third 02 ?

Yes. Or just one o2 instead of the two.

The thing is, with the rapidbike, you have to have a wideband sensor for the instant f/a adjustments. You can have one for all 4 cylinders, or you can even go nuts and have 4 individual ones like Candy did, but I really just want the one.

If you put one in an existing bung with stock or the chinese aftermarket systems, it only reads the average of 2 cylinders, and it's probably best to get the average of all 4.  My current solution is to weld a bung into the connector pipe that comes immediately AFTER the collector, which is the first point where you can read the average of all 4 cylinders' exhausts. There's a bit of space there to angle it up, still clear the suspension, and not lose the centerstand.

Anyway, if these are a sort of one at a time deal (as opposed to produced in large lots) I doubt it's a problem to eliminate the original o2 bungs and find a spot for a single sensor -- it's probably actually easier not to include extra bungs. Or if I'm wrong, and that's actually harder instead of easier, I'll just plug the bungs and have my local guy weld in a holder for the wideband sensor.

As for cans, if OEM exit is standard, then surely slip ons can work, right? That's a big deal as you're not trying to be a muffler maker, so we can use whatever cans we happen to have or have access to. I don't care how the problem is solved, just wanted to bring it up as I think it's an important detail for those of us not local, and I am curious.

I thought the whole sensor/outlet issue had already been settled i.e. bungs included stock outlet location.

Yea,  the can place fit thing shouldn't be more than just something to put into place.   I'm now after seeing first hand yesterday how the dudes at Aprillia lay theirs out on the RSV4,  Nice,  has me re thinking,  but theirs use a standard swing arm giving them more or less hassle in alignment where they come down through the swing arm making a nice transition into the maim collector, they also use 2 02s in the primary collector, talk about nice how they blend there in the middle making a nice 180 out.  Wish I had that kind of room for options.     Oh man is that RSv4 Touno  something else.....Oooooooo

[image: rsvr tubes.jpg]

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7 hours ago, MBrane

I thought the whole sensor/outlet issue had already been settled i.e. bungs included stock outlet location.

Just wondering whether the option is available.

This is a custom, hand made item, afterall. It's great to have bungs that suit people with stock setups, but some of us are going to have to add a separate one, regardless.

:unsure:  eta on production 

Well now, that's a good question, I have it now while jen is getting the donor 5th gen back on the road, SMH,  then add Gabe is moving his production to an actual shop,  yippee,  even closer, so with a bit of luck I'd like to think the end of October,  things will sorta slow down for me too, then I can put forth more time into the details on this, also now knowing the 6th gen group has a lot of interests, probably would be a good idea to find a done 6th gen while I'm a bit idle.  All is still good guys,  I know it's taking longer even by what I counted on,  but it's like good wine, Right ;) 

RVFR Well now, that's a good question, I have it now while jen is getting the donor 5th gen back on the road, SMH,  then add Gabe is moving his production to an actual shop,  yippee,  even closer, so with a bit of luck I'd like to think the end of October,  things will sorta slow down for me too, then I can put forth more time into the details on this, also now knowing the 6th gen group has a lot of interests, probably would be a good idea to find a done 6th gen while I'm a bit idle.  All is still good guys,  I know it's taking longer even by what I counted on,  but it's like good wine, Right ;) 

Any chance the photobucket pics at the beginning of this thread can be re-uploaded?

Ciao,

Not to hijack the thread but I read on the other VFR bike porn site that RVFR took a nasty fall of a ladder.  Best wishes for a speedy recovery sir!

It can't be a threadjack if it's reaching out to the original poster...

Dang, Jay! You know what they say about traction and gravity: It seems like there's never enough, and then, suddenly, there's waaayyyy too much. Good thing you do your exercises every morning - your strength and flexibility probably kept it from being worse. Best thoughts and speedy healing to you. Glad you've got family around you.

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Hey all. Been a while since I’ve chimes in. Just wanted to confirm that I’m officially still interested in ordering one unit for my 5th Gen. cheers.


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Thanks guys.  You heard right,  it's kinda rough,  don't sneeze, cough or laugh or lightly run into a door jam  but I'm hanging in there,  I mean whats ya going to do right get hook on pain meds....NOT!!    just lucky, it so could have been way worse. On the header front I"m still waiting for Gabe to get into his new shop and if,  jens 5th gen and now thinking who's got a 6th gen i can barrow to get this back on the road. it's good to hear your thoughts in that I'm still moving forward but of late very slowly.     now the Freaking )(*$ photo bucket deal SMH yea No.  I'll see if i might be able to do a re load right from the camera instead...maybe. 

May as well chime in, '01 5th gen here and very, very interested in headers!

I am very, very interested in headers for a '98 5th gen. Less interested in the shipping to Australia, but sacrifices must be made for shiny new toys.  :biggrin:

+1, interested. Excited to see final details, pics, price, weight, dyno #'s, etc. My vote is also that the outlet matches the stock location (5th Gen) so slip ons are usable. 

+1 still looking to get one 6 gen with stock exit location

Hey Jay maybe I should ship my bike to you seeing it's just going to sit in a garage for 4-5 months here in Cali-- thought just hit me upside the head


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Hmmm...  you riding it up?  train ride back?   :wink:   On the header front, seems as though there's a slight delay with Gabe getting in to his shop, he was suppose to be in it the end of Sept. but now the contractor/ developer has it where it's not available to be moved into it quite yet. when? is the question, and here's Gabe with a lot on his plate for this to happen so he can get back down to doing what it is he does best. 

On the header build,. Gabe and I have talked in length and he has landed a pretty good gig with making goodies on the high end level fo the GTR35.  Big Bucks too. can't blame him for taking a slight turn, he's worked hard for this.  It's the big  reason why he's moving to a bigger spot. That being, now things with the header build, financially and time wise is getting where he hasn't the time to play,  being he now has a commitment with some GTR parts. putting the header build on a not as important level when compering Moneys,   so it's starting to look now,   not that he won't build em,  but will need like 10 orders paid before he ties up his time plus materiel . He'd like to just schedule the time get em all built at once,  Makes sense.  Before he got the GTR deal he had the time doing a one at a time as they came. also had a lower over head and all.  Now Not so much.  So Now the question is, are folks willing to trust this and lay out the $$$$   I'm not in a spot to float $10K .  I know a lot of folks have said yes,  but at a $1000 a piece plus shipping,  I need to know for a fact.  Yes,  I have a couple lose ends here tie up in making sure the 6th gen is right with O2s,  no biggie,  yet needs to be nailed down as a fact what's what.  The 5th gen one is pretty much just lay it out. and on both lining it all up so what ever you may have in the way of a canister fits.   I really appreciate all you guys in what you have put up with,  kinda crazy,  yet I know I'm not going anywhere, you can trust me with this, now it's more a case of a time line. in that I haven't an answer ,  which I know you guys can't make a commitment until it's all  sorted out , still,  wanted to throw it out there whats been going on.  What say you?  It's all good,  just letting all know what's going on.

I'm in! Up front or not, I'm in! So, another year has gone by, this needs to be done by April 2018, I am so desperate now I actually am considering firing my tig and do this on my own... Hopefully I won't need to do that. Snow is falling in 2 weeks or so, so I could probably cool down now, yeah? [image: emoji23.png]

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So only $560 in the GoFundMe. A big chunk of that is mine. Time for peeps to put their money where their mouth is. Money is not the issue for me, but I want to be sure I get the goods.

Is Gabe prepared to give us a timeline for delivery once we have ten orders confirmed?

Still in for two sets if we can get this figured out.

I'm still in, but things still seem a bit tentative with Gabe and his shop and GTR35 contract.  Let's see how he gets on with the stuff he's already committed to.  I think it will be worth the wait!

Ciao,

20 hours ago, Voided76

"Hello Michael,

  funnily enough, we were discussing the option of re-developing the entire VFR750 and VFR800 range to our race spec tubing, ie bigger bore and light weight, spring fit etc just last week.   We agree that it maybe the time to revisit the VFR range, and give it a refresh.   All I can say at this stage is, we will not be doing any more in our old spec, but a higher spec has a high chance of being developed later this year, time permitting.   Best regards,   Black Widow Exhausts Ltd 8 High Barns, Roxton, Bedfordshire MK44 3ET Tel: +44 (0) 1234 871009

www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk"
________________________________________________________________

"Good Afternoon Gentlemen,

I see you already have the jigs for the RC46 header and can mass produce them.  Back in the early 2000's Erion racing and Two Brothers racing exhausts built an RC46 header that made between 5-8 extra horsepower by itself.  it wasn't vastly different from the original designs honda use but the primary inner diameters were much larger.  a 98 and probably your standard VFR Header utilize 33mm ID primaries.  the Vtec bikes use a catalyst and 31.5-32mm ID's in stainless.  Two brothers and Erion used 36,  and 38mm ID primaries respectively.  and Both achieved outstanding gains from 3k to redline.  No real suprize considering that's the specs of the RC45 the engine is based upon without respect to the different firing order.  I have at least a dozen gentlemen on the VFR discussion forums,  and perhaps half that more on the VFR World forums that are ready to buy at double what your company charges for their standard faire.

if your company can produce a race ready 36-38mm ID header for the RC46 with the same quality you put into your GSF650 header,  We're ready.

The consensus of gentlemen on the boards agreed on:
 

18 gauge 304 stainless steel with 1.5" tubing primaries, 1.63" tubing secondaries, 2.0" header collector discharge results in:

~35.6 mm ID primaries

~39 mm ID secondaries

~49mm ID header collector discharge

Can you help us?

Respectfully,
Michael Spence"

As much as I am not a fan of ebay headers, that would be a great option.

7 hours ago, CandyRedRC46

As much as I am not a fan of ebay headers, that would be a great option.

Consider me a +1 on this. Do you think that if we push a decent szied list of committed buyers at them they'd prioritize the work? Worth a shot, no? I would guess we'd still need a prototype to ogle and dyno results in order to get people to put down deposits... it that unrealistic? I know BW has a patchy history, would that keep people away even if they were willing to step up to the plate?

I think it would work, but they would have to promise/ ensure higher quality, actual performance merges and provide a legit dyno before/after. Also they could not ask more than a $100 over their standard header, any more than that for an ebay brand header, would be ridiculous. 

CandyRedRC46, 2/7/2018 at 8:22 AM

That has to be one of the most poorly designed collectors I have ever seen in my life. Why are people still buying these things?

Yeah, I kind of wondered about that picture, and thought maybe it was the angle of the shot, because that looks nasty.

Double post.

7 hours ago, CandyRedRC46

I think it would work, but they would have to promise/ ensure higher quality, actual performance merges and provide a legit dyno before/after. Also they could not ask more than a $100 over their standard header, any more than that for an ebay brand header, would be ridiculous. 

If (and I suspect it's a big "if") they were to actually make a performance header, and "if" it produced decent gains (10Hp/extra torque), and "if" it was reasonably priced, I'd probably consider buying in. That said, having waded through this - and other - header threads that become very lengthy, but ultimately end up nowhere, I'm not holding my breath...

In saying that, for those a little more financially "constrained", perhaps look at the never ending delays in someone producing a viable, marketable product as an opportunity to save some $$/offload un-needed stuff (that "spare" kidney you have lying around, for example ;) ), so that when a decent product becomes available, we're all ready to jump in and stump up a critical mass of orders...

ScottieDucati, 10/31/2017 at 4:02 PM

I'm still in for a 5th gen setup, but no way is 100% upfront payment for goods yet to be produced going to fly. At most, a 50% payment is fair to cover material costs, etc.

I'm just confused, should I go to the kickstarter? Is there a more official way to get this together? I'm happy to pay materials costs and some labor up front, but damn well expect a) a spot in line and b) a general timeline of availability.

Giving someone a grand on a whim that it may or may not happen later is ridiculous... almost as bad as giving them $500! But some of us are crazy enough to do that, just need things setup in a transparent way.

I may be new here, but this isn't my first rodeo. We have gone all the way to Cosworth to get custom pistons made for our VFR400 race bikes, and I've done a group buy with Sil Moto (a bit over a decade ago now) for 851/888 SBK Spaghetti Exhaust systems.

Yes, I get needing the "commitment" to do a small production run, but no the risk shouldn't 100% be on the buyers. Any good shop will happily make such an arrangement as above to cover materials, and recoup labor (or partial labor) after they're made.

I’m interested as well, but would have to be along the lines of what Scottie says here.

So.  I need someone to take point on this   (again)
Just like Tyga I'm facing down some real life stuff and I'm going to be gone until probably august.

I deploy in two weeks to the pacific with the US Navy.   ;)

 

6 hours ago, Voided76

So.  I need someone to take point on this   (again)
Just like Tyga I'm facing down some real life stuff and I'm going to be gone until probably august.

I deploy in two weeks to the pacific with the US Navy.   ;)

 

 I am happy to do the following:

- Start a new thread with a copy of your post containing the email from Black Widow and solicit names of interested (no monetary commitment) parties including what gen VFR they have

- After a reasonable period to collect names and info I will aggregate our info and send it to Black Widow, referencing their previous communication, and urge them to (re)design, produce and sell these new headers sooner than 'later this year/time permitting'. I will also inquire as to their willingness to produce these as a batch/group buy if they aren't willing to make a full production run or regularly available part. I will also stress the desire of the market to see a before/after dyno test (same bike, same dyno, etc), good pics of the collectors and joins, specific diameters of tubing used, etc. (I would communicate this as a mandatory pre-requisite for a group buy).

- Report progress and info back to the forum in the thread previously created. Facilitate communication of details, etc, I would not take on any risk or front any funds. 

If anyone would like to me to take this on, please respond and let me know. I don't mind being the communication middle-man in the least. 

well as long as you don't shit on black widow exhausts I'm sure you'll do fine.  :)

I got us off to a fine start,  just keep the faith.  

Well sorry to upset the apple cart here gents but I have a potential update. My engine builder (G-Force Engine Development) was talking with Tyga on this topic recently and they may well be turning around on this, but we're looking to G-force to lead the development effort and Dyno tuning. 

Mike would need a bike in No. Cal., and one in So. Cal. For different reasons. One in So. Cal. to 3D scan both bike and exhaust, and the other in No. Cal. to eventually Dyno tune. (I think I have that right way round). 

In in any event, what I do suspect is the end result would be of high quality, come with documented performance benefits and at a pretty reasonable price as are Tygas systems in general (IMO). 

It it seems things are a bit splintered here and I wouldn't want to piss anyone off, but this is a real company and storied V4 Honda tuner looking to collaborate, and seems the stars are a bit in alignment. 

I dont have much detail beyond that but idk, should we take a poll here? 

1 hour ago, ScottieDucati

Well sorry to upset the apple cart here gents but I have a potential update. My engine builder (G-Force Engine Development) was talking with Tyga on this topic recently and they may well be turning around on this, but we're looking to G-force to lead the development effort and Dyno tuning. 

Mike would need a bike in No. Cal., and one in So. Cal. For different reasons. One in So. Cal. to 3D scan both bike and exhaust, and the other in No. Cal. to eventually Dyno tune. (I think I have that right way round). 

In in any event, what I do suspect is the end result would be of high quality, come with documented performance benefits and at a pretty reasonable price as are Tygas systems in general (IMO). 

It it seems things are a bit splintered here and I wouldn't want to piss anyone off, but this is a real company and storied V4 Honda tuner looking to collaborate, and seems the stars are a bit in alignment. 

I dont have much detail beyond that but idk, should we take a poll here? 

I can be your So Cal Guy. I have a 5 and 6 Gen, let me know what’s involved.

Seeing what Mike Norman and Tyga can do with the NC30/35s, I'd take them over Black Widow any day of the week.

13 hours ago, ScottieDucati

Well sorry to upset the apple cart here gents but I have a potential update. My engine builder (G-Force Engine Development) was talking with Tyga on this topic recently and they may well be turning around on this, but we're looking to G-force to lead the development effort and Dyno tuning. 

Mike would need a bike in No. Cal., and one in So. Cal. For different reasons. One in So. Cal. to 3D scan both bike and exhaust, and the other in No. Cal. to eventually Dyno tune. (I think I have that right way round). 

In in any event, what I do suspect is the end result would be of high quality, come with documented performance benefits and at a pretty reasonable price as are Tygas systems in general (IMO). 

It it seems things are a bit splintered here and I wouldn't want to piss anyone off, but this is a real company and storied V4 Honda tuner looking to collaborate, and seems the stars are a bit in alignment. 

I dont have much detail beyond that but idk, should we take a poll here? 

I don't think we need to take a poll or feel splintered. My take: (If we exclude opinions of quality for a minute) Black Widow currently makes a full system on a production basis and it sounds like they are planning on a refresh or 'race' option already anyway, I don't know that pushing them will accomplish anything other than convince them to up the schedule. This Tyga system sounds like it needs organization and a committed group of interested parties, along with a few members to devote some time and subject their bikes to a bit of test fitting and dyno tuning. I would suggest that we jump on the opportunity for a chance at a small batch high quality header. We can also encourage Black Widow to follow through with their revised offering also, albeit less formally. Who knows, we could get lucky and these two potential products might both become available and offer a solution at different price points. All in all, I just want a stainless steel performance header for my 5th Gen (at a reasonable price point), I don't care who makes it.  

In all honesty, if both companies are thinking of doing this, it may actually be better, as what better motivation to build something, than yo beat your competition to market. Personally, I have no direct interest in the headers (ATM) but I am willing to help get these made. I was involved from the first attempt when Rush2112 had approached HiPerform, where I was willing to loan my bike for that build. I would really like to see these made and if they truly help the performance of our bikes, then I'm likely to buy a set. Not to muddy the waters, but I really prefer to have a left exit if its for my 5 Gen.

Wow, sounds great.  Mike has a huge rep in the small V4 racing world, so if he's interested enough to build it, I will buy at least one set!

Ciao,

Duc2V4, 2/14/2018 at 10:59 AM

In all honesty, if both companies are thinking of doing this, it may actually be better, as what better motivation to build something, than yo beat your competition to market. Personally, I have no direct interest in the headers (ATM) but I am willing to help get these made. I was involved from the first attempt when Rush2112 had approached HiPerform, where I was willing to loan my bike for that build. I would really like to see these made and if they truly help the performance of our bikes, then I'm likely to buy a set. Not to muddy the waters, but I really prefer to have a left exit if its for my 5 Gen.

Yes, that!

ScottieDucati, 14/02/2018 at 11:31 AM

Well sorry to upset the apple cart here gents but I have a potential update. My engine builder (G-Force Engine Development) was talking with Tyga on this topic recently and they may well be turning around on this, but we're looking to G-force to lead the development effort and Dyno tuning. 

Mike would need a bike in No. Cal., and one in So. Cal. For different reasons. One in So. Cal. to 3D scan both bike and exhaust, and the other in No. Cal. to eventually Dyno tune. (I think I have that right way round). 

In in any event, what I do suspect is the end result would be of high quality, come with documented performance benefits and at a pretty reasonable price as are Tygas systems in general (IMO). 

It it seems things are a bit splintered here and I wouldn't want to piss anyone off, but this is a real company and storied V4 Honda tuner looking to collaborate, and seems the stars are a bit in alignment. 

I dont have much detail beyond that but idk, should we take a poll here? 

Wow, back to TYGA. 

It sounds promising that someone else is doing R&D and TYGA maybe the manufacturer.

On another point of your post you mention your engine builder, do they do work on our v4s and what if any?

Cheers

KevCarver, 2/15/2018 at 9:26 PM

Yes, that!

(Left exit on 5th gen)

Is it even possible?  One challenge with left exit exhausts on SSSA bikes is clearing the swing arm at full extension--and the 5th/6th gen swings arms are even larger than the earlier versions, aren't they?  

Ciao,

ScottieDucati, 2/13/2018 at 4:31 PM

Well sorry to upset the apple cart here gents but I have a potential update. My engine builder (G-Force Engine Development) was talking with Tyga on this topic recently and they may well be turning around on this, but we're looking to G-force to lead the development effort and Dyno tuning. 

Mike would need a bike in No. Cal., and one in So. Cal. For different reasons. One in So. Cal. to 3D scan both bike and exhaust, and the other in No. Cal. to eventually Dyno tune. (I think I have that right way round). 

In in any event, what I do suspect is the end result would be of high quality, come with documented performance benefits and at a pretty reasonable price as are Tygas systems in general (IMO). 

It it seems things are a bit splintered here and I wouldn't want to piss anyone off, but this is a real company and storied V4 Honda tuner looking to collaborate, and seems the stars are a bit in alignment. 

I dont have much detail beyond that but idk, should we take a poll here? 

 Perfect.. Good to hear this.   I know I sorta dropped the ball here,  but,  I mean,  really the project I had/ have going is really dragging,  but not totally outa the picture,  we will see. Though that said,  On a side note,  I ran into a hic up with the headers with how they hook up to the exhaust recess in the head where the stock copper gasket goes. Yea as simple as that my seem,  guess what. The stock OEM gaskets won't work on  36mm tubes tubes,  in fact 36mm tubes just slip in place, but not a good idea to mate SS to aluminum. so a flat copper washer needs to be made.  which is another process to be taken into account $$$,  so the end user doesn't go WTF... I ended up use soft brass,  in which is a tricky bugger in it self.   This sounds great Scottie,  if Interested I can share info  on the little things I found.  just drop me a note, I'd be more than glad to help.  No apple cart here tipped over.

Small update - I emailed and got a response with a little bit more info from Black Widow:

________________

HI Nathan,

www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk

Welp, here's hoping another avenue pans out. Mike at G-Force may be very well starting a new chapter in his career (kick-ass opportunity) and I would imagine this (not being a full fledged ongoing activity yet) is going to fall to the back burner for quite some time. 

adkfinn, 3/5/2018 at 12:42 AM

Small update - I emailed and got a response with a little bit more info from Black Widow:

________________

HI Nathan,

  I can confirm that we have started the R&D on developing an upgraded exhaust for the 1990-1993 and 1994-1997 VFR750 models, we are also upgrading the VFR800 and the VFR800 Vtec.   They will all accept the original silencer/muffler or and that fits the original downpipes/collector.   They will be lighter with improved internal gas flow.   I do not expect to have anything ready for at least 4-6 months, please watch our Facebook page as we will announce any new releases there.   Kindest regards   Lincoln       Black Widow Exhausts Ltd 8 High Barns, Roxton, Bedfordshire MK44 3ET Tel: +44 (0) 1234 871009

www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk

---

From: Nathan 
Sent: 01 March 2018 20:03
To: sales@blackwidowexhausts.co.uk
Subject: Exhaust questions [image: cleardot.gif]       Hello,    I am a forum member on vfrdiscussion.com and saw in an exhaust related thread that you were discussing re-developing the VFR750 and VFR800 range to race spec tubing, big bore, spring fit, etc. I would be very interested in this product and would love to hear any more details you might be able to share about it. Do you think this system would still be compatible with the current silencer kits you offer (would the outlet location, tubing size be compatible,etc)? Do you have a time frame estimate for availability?    There has been a lot of discussion about the need and desire for a performance header / full system for VFR800's. I believe there is a market for the product and there is currently hasn't been a supplier for some time ( since the Two Brothers Racing header was discontinued). Many VFR owners are looking for a performance upgrade to replace their older, worn stock system. I would be happy to solicit interest from forum members, organize a group buy, or just to share info etc. If you are interested please let me know. 

If they actually do make these up, and if they're better than some of the "OEM replacement" parts I've seen pics of, I'd be interested in a set. In saying that, I already have ceramic-coated '99 headers, so if the replacements aren't going to flow any better than those (and exit where they currently do - on the RHS, as I want to keep my centre-stand) - I'll just keep the headers I have.

I don't see myself selling my 5th-gen for the foreseeable future, and so am happy to put a bit of money into it...but only if the parts I get are going to improve things over stock.

ScottieDucati, 2/13/2018 at 4:31 PM

. My engine builder (G-Force Engine Development) was talking with Tyga on this topic recently and they may well be turning around on this, but we're looking to G-force to lead the development effort and Dyno tuning. 

Say hello to my old friend Mike Norman...

34 minutes ago, BusyLittleShop

Say hello to my old friend Mike Norman...

Larry is like a total bike slut.

He knows everyone. LOL

CandyRedRC46, 08/02/2018 at 2:24 PM

I think it would work, but they would have to promise/ ensure higher quality, actual performance merges and provide a legit dyno before/after. Also they could not ask more than a $100 over their standard header, any more than that for an ebay brand header, would be ridiculous. 

Hey CR, yes the old Sandy Bikes spares pipes were crap. But the newer Black Widow versions appear to be much better quality. Practicle SportsBike Magazine in the UK, has been fitting a bunch of their refurb bikes with these & they seem impressed with the quality & the performance.  Performance Bikes magazine did a feature last year on dirt cheap endurance racing. They got a dog of a Bandit 600 & stripped, cleaned & adjusted everything whilst removing the few parts that are allowed in the race series rules. One item that you can change is the exhaust & air filter, everything else engine wise has to be stock. They used Black Widow exhaust & after finishing the build the day before the race meeting & then having an electrical problem that meant they missed most of practice. They rocked up on the Sunday & won their class !  The exhaust looked good in the mag pictures & performed better than stock !  And that is NOT a performance version, just the bog stock replace my rusted out version.

So it looks like they have got their act together as far as manufacturing is concerned. Only time & the dyno will tell if they nail it for the VFR's.

How's your 6th gen doing ?

Hello from the other side of the world!

glad to hear that the gears are turning in viffer world....

do me a favor gents:  keep your ears peeled for RVF400's for sale in Japan....  
I might crate one and bring it back on the ship.  ;)

That is all 

A few available on Yahoo Japan - http://buyee.jp/item/search/query/nc35/category/2084008672?sort=cbids&order=d&translationType=1

Bring back one for me :cool:

Mohawk, 3/13/2018 at 8:45 AM

How's your 6th gen doing ?

My 6th gen has been down for a while. My rear hub bearings failed and I was on the fence forever, trying to decide on whether to do a Ducati hub swap or rebuild the original. Eventually I rebuilt the original hub and cush drive, got halfway into installing it and then decided to tuck the brake line into the swing arm. Long story short, the ss line and banjos came in last week, so hopefully I can find some time to get everything assembled and back on the road shortly. 

I've been checking up on this for an entire month,  to see if your bike is back CR and you're not talking!  

RVFR, 2/17/2018 at 10:07 AM

 Perfect.. Good to hear this.   I know I sorta dropped the ball here,  but,  I mean,  really the project I had/ have going is really dragging,  but not totally outa the picture,  we will see. Though that said,  On a side note,  I ran into a hic up with the headers with how they hook up to the exhaust recess in the head where the stock copper gasket goes. Yea as simple as that my seem,  guess what. The stock OEM gaskets won't work on  36mm tubes tubes,  in fact 36mm tubes just slip in place, but not a good idea to mate SS to aluminum. so a flat copper washer needs to be made.  which is another process to be taken into account $$$,  so the end user doesn't go WTF... I ended up use soft brass,  in which is a tricky bugger in it self.   This sounds great Scottie,  if Interested I can share info  on the little things I found.  just drop me a note, I'd be more than glad to help.  No apple cart here tipped over.

As ever, the header thread lives on. RVFR, do you think your Two Brothers headers' form at exhaust ports is part of their performance advantage? I meanto ask, is it important to have the configuration that requires the custom gaskets you fabricated?

That said, if your man Gabe, Black Widow or Tyga do build a performance header, hopefully they can make a configuration that utilizes stock crush gaskets without compromising performance.

I've got to reconfirm - RVFR, when I rode your 5th gen it blew me away how much better pulls across the entire rev range than my 5th gen. Yours with 32000ish miles then I rode it, Power Commander III, Two Brothers headers, Staintune slip-on, dyno tuned to 112hp by expert technician. Mine at that time had 45000ish miles with Power Commander III, 98/99 catless headers, and Staintune slip-on, dyno tuned to 99hp.

As the years and posts pile up, I lose track of who is who, but thanks to Michael Spence for specifying what we've been seeking:

"Good Afternoon Gentlemen,

I see you already have the jigs for the RC46 header and can mass produce them.  Back in the early 2000's Erion racing and Two Brothers racing exhausts built an RC46 header that made between 5-8 extra horsepower by itself.  it wasn't vastly different from the original designs honda use but the primary inner diameters were much larger.  a 98 and probably your standard VFR Header utilize 33mm ID primaries.  the Vtec bikes use a catalyst and 31.5-32mm ID's in stainless.  Two brothers and Erion used 36,  and 38mm ID primaries respectively.  and Both achieved outstanding gains from 3k to redline.  No real suprize considering that's the specs of the RC45 the engine is based upon without respect to the different firing order.  I have at least a dozen gentlemen on the VFR discussion forums,  and perhaps half that more on the VFR World forums that are ready to buy at double what your company charges for their standard faire.

if your company can produce a race ready 36-38mm ID header for the RC46 with the same quality you put into your GSF650 header,  We're ready.

The consensus of gentlemen on the boards agreed on:
 

18 gauge 304 stainless steel with 1.5" tubing primaries, 1.63" tubing secondaries, 2.0" header collector discharge results in:

~35.6 mm ID primaries

~39 mm ID secondaries

~49mm ID header collector discharge

Brake line through the swingarm is so tidy, CandyRed, plus you're already elbow deep in there.

12 hours ago, sfdownhill

As ever, the header thread lives on. RVFR, do you think your Two Brothers headers' form at exhaust ports is part of their performance advantage? I meanto ask, is it important to have the configuration that requires the custom gaskets you fabricated?

That said, if your man Gabe, Black Widow or Tyga do build a performance header, hopefully they can make a configuration that utilizes stock crush gaskets without compromising performance.

I've got to reconfirm - RVFR, when I rode your 5th gen it blew me away how much better pulls across the entire rev range than my 5th gen. Yours with 32000ish miles then I rode it, Power Commander III, Two Brothers headers, Staintune slip-on, dyno tuned to 112hp by expert technician. Mine at that time had 45000ish miles with Power Commander III, 98/99 catless headers, and Staintune slip-on, dyno tuned to 99hp.

As the years and posts pile up, I lose track of who is who, but thanks to Michael Spence for specifying what we've been seeking:

"Good Afternoon Gentlemen,

I see you already have the jigs for the RC46 header and can mass produce them.  Back in the early 2000's Erion racing and Two Brothers racing exhausts built an RC46 header that made between 5-8 extra horsepower by itself.  it wasn't vastly different from the original designs honda use but the primary inner diameters were much larger.  a 98 and probably your standard VFR Header utilize 33mm ID primaries.  the Vtec bikes use a catalyst and 31.5-32mm ID's in stainless.  Two brothers and Erion used 36,  and 38mm ID primaries respectively.  and Both achieved outstanding gains from 3k to redline.  No real suprize considering that's the specs of the RC45 the engine is based upon without respect to the different firing order.  I have at least a dozen gentlemen on the VFR discussion forums,  and perhaps half that more on the VFR World forums that are ready to buy at double what your company charges for their standard faire.

if your company can produce a race ready 36-38mm ID header for the RC46 with the same quality you put into your GSF650 header,  We're ready.

The consensus of gentlemen on the boards agreed on:
 

18 gauge 304 stainless steel with 1.5" tubing primaries, 1.63" tubing secondaries, 2.0" header collector discharge results in:

~35.6 mm ID primaries

~39 mm ID secondaries

~49mm ID header collector discharge

Can you help us?

Respectfully,
Michael Spence" 

Hmmmm... those 304 SS dimensions look familiar 

Did you consider using the stock exhaust gaskets from an ST?  I believe they will align with the 36mm you are looking for... I forget if it is the ST1100 or 1300; I have a set in the garage I’ll see if I can find the part number

Ive just spoken to van demon exhausts here in sydney. Well, greater sydney since they are a couple hours from me.

They currently make systems for things like the kwaka H2.

They can make ones for us in stainless or ti.

Needs to have at least 20 orders to justify the labour to make the jig.

I have an OEM system hanging on the wall they can have to make the jig.

Are people still serious about making it happen?

Thanks for sharing the good news, keef! I am definitely interested in a full system, but I need to know cost of system and shipping from AU to USA. It ain't gonna be cheap for us over here. I would be more interested in the stainless exhaust than Titanium since Titanium will probably cost at least $2k if not more due to the more complex bends on a V4 vs. inline engines.

Do we have any updates on Tyga/G-Force and Black Widow?

RVFR, 2/17/2018 at 1:07 PM

 Perfect.. Good to hear this.   I know I sorta dropped the ball here,  but,  I mean,  really the project I had/ have going is really dragging,  but not totally outa the picture,  we will see. Though that said,  On a side note,  I ran into a hic up with the headers with how they hook up to the exhaust recess in the head where the stock copper gasket goes. Yea as simple as that my seem,  guess what. The stock OEM gaskets won't work on  36mm tubes tubes,  in fact 36mm tubes just slip in place, but not a good idea to mate SS to aluminum. so a flat copper washer needs to be made.  which is another process to be taken into account $$$,  so the end user doesn't go WTF... I ended up use soft brass,  in which is a tricky bugger in it self.   This sounds great Scottie,  if Interested I can share info  on the little things I found.  just drop me a note, I'd be more than glad to help.  No apple cart here tipped over.

Did you consider using the stock exhaust gaskets from an ST?  I believe they will align with the 36mm you are looking for... I forget if it is the ST1100 or 1300; I have a set in the garage I’ll see if I can find the part number

40 minutes ago, Rush2112

Did you consider using the stock exhaust gaskets from an ST?  I believe they will align with the 36mm you are looking for... I forget if it is the ST1100 or 1300; I have a set in the garage I’ll see if I can find the part number

I wonder what type of crush or flat gaskets were originally supplied with the Two Brothers headers? Rush, thanks for the ST gasket suggestion - I'm curious how that works. Have you used ST gaskets on a VFR before?

16 minutes ago, sfdownhill

I wonder what type of crush or flat gaskets were originally supplied with the Two Brothers headers? Rush, thanks for the ST gasket suggestion - I'm curious how that works. Have you used ST gaskets on a VFR before?

I found the ST exhaust gaskets referenced somewhere during my previous research into performance headers for the VFR800; unfortunately, I never got the chance to try them with a set of performance headers so they are still in the little plastic Honda pouches...

Hell, I'm in little plastic Honda pouches myself, at this point of the wild goose egg treasure hunt for VFR headers.

I just searched for Mohawk's build to see if he did 'before Two Brothers headers vs after Two Brothers headers' dyno runs. I found the 34 page long thread calledPotential Re-Release Of Two Brothers Racing Vfr800 Headers

where way back in 2014 Duc2V4, you [Rush2112], CandyRed, HighsideNZ, mello dude, Mohawk, voided76, Veefer800canuck, MadScientist, VFRcapn, KevCarver - basically everyone who's anyone on vfrd - was participating in a header thread. Fascinating header history.

6 hours ago, keef

Ive just spoken to van demon exhausts here in sydney. Well, greater sydney since they are a couple hours from me.

They currently make systems for things like the kwaka H2.

They can make ones for us in stainless or ti.

Needs to have at least 20 orders to justify the labour to make the jig.

I have an OEM system hanging on the wall they can have to make the jig.

Are people still serious about making it happen?

Depends on what $$$ they're asking. 

I'm kind of on the fence at the moment.

🤔Do I spend money on the 6g or keep saving coin for rvf1000? 

They're not asking for any dollars yet. They seem to be small enough to be interested in  niche markets, and big enough to actually make it happen.

6 hours ago, sfdownhill

I wonder what type of crush or flat gaskets were originally supplied with the Two Brothers headers? Rush, thanks for the ST gasket suggestion - I'm curious how that works. Have you used ST gaskets on a VFR before?

None supplied. I used GSXR750 ones as they open the port fully & seal better on the TBR Headers wider pipe, with less lip so it still fits the header port. The GSXR washers are the same size squashed as the VFR ones not-squashed.  The TBR headers added 8hp all other mods were left the same, just added the pipes & manually adjusted the fueling using a wideband sensor & gauge plus my memory whilst riding to tweak it before the dyno run.

Plus I was looking at a Ladybird RC45 HRC copy in Ti from Japan, but when I checked the pipework its the same ID/OD as the TBR, so apart from being 2x 2-1 compared to the TBR being 2-2-1 its about the same the. the HRC would be best for ultimate power, but the TBR is pretty close & the RC45 left exist will NOT fit without some monification.

YMMV.

Oooo, those Ladybird parts are usually pretty tasty! I don't think I ever saw an RC45 header, but I used to lust after the RC51 bits.

4 hours ago, boOZZIE

🤔Do I spend money on the 6g or keep saving coin for rvf1000? 

You do realise it will not be a VFR. It'll be a track weapon. I'd like them to produce a naked version, but I doubt they will. Either way, it won't be a VFR.

Naked versions of the Norton and Ducati V4s are intended and will be very interesting. There's always the Aprilia. Why not that? It's a very good bike. None of them VFRs though. Either track focussed or naked. If you want a bigger VFR, you'll be disappointed.

Hang on, there's already a big VFR. Without a doubt, brilliant bike. I like mine naked though 🙂

8 hours ago, sfdownhill

Hell, I'm in little plastic Honda pouches myself, at this point of the wild goose egg treasure hunt for VFR headers.

I just searched for Mohawk's build to see if he did 'before Two Brothers headers vs after Two Brothers headers' dyno runs. I found the 34 page long thread calledPotential Re-Release Of Two Brothers Racing Vfr800 Headers

where way back in 2014 Duc2V4, you [Rush2112], CandyRed, HighsideNZ, mello dude, Mohawk, voided76, Veefer800canuck, MadScientist, VFRcapn, KevCarver - basically everyone who's anyone on vfrd - was participating in a header thread. Fascinating header history.

Mohawk's motad vs two brothers header dyno.

[image: motad vs two brothers.jpg]

Voided76, 4/27/2018 at 11:01 AM

I've been checking up on this for an entire month,  to see if your bike is back CR and you're not talking!  

sfdownhill, 4/27/2018 at 11:57 AM

Brake line through the swingarm is so tidy, CandyRed, plus you're already elbow deep in there.

Whelp, so far I have opened up the two factory swing arm holes and bought some grommets. Then I tied string to the factory brake line, pulled the brake line out and string through the tail and then pulled the string through the swing arm. Next I am going to need to get the grommets in the swing arm and ss line through. Then I will need to cut the ss line, attach the banjo fittings and finally reassemble everything. It will get done eventually, I just don't have time like I used to.

15 hours ago, keef

Ive just spoken to van demon exhausts here in sydney. Well, greater sydney since they are a couple hours from me.

They currently make systems for things like the kwaka H2.

They can make ones for us in stainless or ti.

Needs to have at least 20 orders to justify the labour to make the jig.

I have an OEM system hanging on the wall they can have to make the jig.

Are people still serious about making it happen?

Yes, I'm still very interested. Shipping from Oz would be expensive but if that's what's necessary then that's what's necessary. When they say 20 orders do they mean 20 deposits? Or 20 fully payed?

I'm still in for the headers, but the price and shipping could make me step back. But I'm in

until I say I'm out.

Shipping?

You get used to paying for it when you live on a giant island.

Vandemon have full stainless systems for the mt09 for $890 aus, and full stainless car systems (mustang/toyota 86) for $2500aus.

Mohawk - very cool info about the GSXR750 crush washers.

CandyRed - glad to hear your brake line/swingarm project is moving forward. There was one guy on here [might have been our neighboring vfr site] who found a perfect grommet for the front hole in the swingarm - he even included a part number for it in his thread. It was a cone-shaped nipple that guided the brake hose into the swingarm nicely. I'll look around for it.

Keef, Vandemon's exhaust for the H2 looks great. It's good that they'll consider a run of 20 headers for our VFRs. Keep us posted as to progress with them. There have been issues in the past with multiple vfrd members contacting the same supplier, so it will be best if you remain the single point of contact.

12 hours ago, BiKenG

You do realise it will not be a VFR. It'll be a track weapon. I'd like them to produce a naked version, but I doubt they will. Either way, it won't be a VFR.

Naked versions of the Norton and Ducati V4s are intended and will be very interesting. There's always the Aprilia. Why not that? It's a very good bike. None of them VFRs though. Either track focussed or naked. If you want a bigger VFR, you'll be disappointed.

Hang on, there's already a big VFR. Without a doubt, brilliant bike. I like mine naked though 🙂

Hate to derail things here, but MHO is the new Duc SS is the VFR that we've all wanted.

keef, 5/1/2018 at 10:40 AM

Ive just spoken to van demon exhausts here in sydney. Well, greater sydney since they are a couple hours from me.

They currently make systems for things like the kwaka H2.

They can make ones for us in stainless or ti.

Needs to have at least 20 orders to justify the labour to make the jig.

I have an OEM system hanging on the wall they can have to make the jig.

Are people still serious about making it happen?

keef, 5/1/2018 at 10:40 AM

Mate, if they can make them - depending on the price not being TOO outlandish - I'll take a set. For once, I'm in a reasonable place (geographically speaking) to take full advantage, being "only" 3 hours down the road from them... :)

6 hours ago, sfdownhill

....It's good that they'll consider a run of 20 headers for our VFRs. Keep us posted as to progress with them. There have been issues in the past with multiple vfrd members contacting the same supplier, so it will be best if you remain the single point of contact.

+1

3 hours ago, KevCarver

Hate to derail things here, but MHO is the new Duc SS is the VFR that we've all wanted.

I rode a VFR1200,  my 2014 VFR800 and a demo Duc SS  the same day.

3 very different bikes. 

the duc is NOT a VFR replacement.  it isn't.  However!

it's light,  it feels like a hooligan ride when that twin lights up in first and it's always trying to lift the front,  but it's NOT faster than a VFR.  Certainly not a well tuned one either.  There's an enormous timing cut in the bottom end of the rev band that makes a 1000CC Vtwin feel gutless around town,  god knows why they would do that...  it kinda ruined the around-town riding I did in my opinion and I'd be looking to defeat that timing cut immediately on delivery of the bike.  It's super planted though,  on the highway it absolutely gets it.  Get it halfway to redline and it's a thoroughbred.  Being cheaper than a new VFR,  and cheaper than supersport 6's,  I would have been hard pressed to pass it up honestly if I didn't catch the 2014 VFR800DLX for $7k wave of last year.  🤨

The VFR 1200 is a MONSTER above 4k rpms.  It doesn't ride noticably different from an 800 around town and on ramps ect,  but that engine is something else.  There's a similar timing cut down low like the Duc,  but instead of being gutless it feels like the 800 til it feeds timing back into the engine around 5k or so. There are over the counter timing retard eliminators for the bike,  and the dyno graphed results are nothing short of comical. 

[image: VFR1200-stock-vs-Z-Bomb-2nd-L.jpg]

The mid RPM ramp up as stock makes your hair stand up on the back of your neck. 

Supremely stable. the Seat,  is TO DIE FOR on this thing.  There's just a little bit of gel and a nice saddle position,  it's night and day better than a stock 800's seat.  Any of them.  😌

And the new 800 is a lot like a cross between the 5th and 6th gen.  Except for the horn/turn signal placement riding it is like shaking hands with an old friend who's somehow gotten into better shape,  lost a few pounds, and gotten a good facelift since you last saw them.  Nearly everything perceptable about the new 800 is a lovely reminder of the old,  or is noticably better.  

Except the top-end pull.   😐
And the new header shape changing the sound of the V4  😐

23 hours ago, BiKenG

You do realise it will not be a VFR. It'll be a track weapon. I'd like them to produce a naked version, but I doubt they will. Either way, it won't be a VFR.

Naked versions of the Norton and Ducati V4s are intended and will be very interesting. There's always the Aprilia. Why not that? It's a very good bike. None of them VFRs though. Either track focussed or naked. If you want a bigger VFR, you'll be disappointed.

Hang on, there's already a big VFR. Without a doubt, brilliant bike. I like mine naked though 🙂

Yeah I'll probs be trading the cbr1k, which I quite like. 

I was seriously considering an Aprilia tuano, had a test ride lined up. Local  distributor nationally (PS) had only 1 tuano factory in their warehouse at the time (alarm bells).

Went down for the test ride on Saturday morning. "Sorry recall on Brembo brakes, no test ride." Thanks for calling 😠. "While you're here we will price up your trade in." ........ half hour later still waiting. 

F*&k this & f*&k your sh1t service.

So im waiting to see what honda can do

The Tuono 1100 is I think a cracking bike, but to be honest, any company that simply shuts down for the summer holidays (and to hell with customer service, parts etc) is suspect in my books.

I sure love the idea of a new RVF1000, but I actually think the Ducati or Norton V4s will be better road bikes with their larger capacity and none of them can possibly allow me to go any faster as that's governed entirely by speed limits and nothing to do with the bike's performance.

I've set myself a new rule. No more bikes that require tax and MOT. So apart from the VFRs, it's 40 year old classics for me. But there's a lot of interesting Hondas in that bracket now 🙂

Back on track!

What's the word from Black Widow Exhaust on doing a full on pipe?

1 hour ago, Voided76

Back on track!

What's the word from Black Widow Exhaust on doing a full on pipe?

The "word" is that they are working/planning on offering a race style exhaust for VFR's 1990-2009. I haven't heard anything since the email I posted about in March, but the ETA at that point was July-August at the earliest, and we all know how this goes. To save you some searching here it is again:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HI Nathan,

www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A few others have mentioned that their newer race style exhuasts look to be good quality and are getting some good press. A bit of searching or scrolling their FB page should land you on some pictures/articles/etc. 

adkfinn, thanks for monitoring Black Widow's intentions.

Here's a production exhaust question:

Would a single set of performance headers work for both 5th and 6th gen VFR800s? It would be much easier to talk a manufacturer into producing a single system for 1998-2013 VFR800s than to require the development of two exhaust systems.

The root of my question stems from user Hammerdrill and I recently fitting a set of 98/99 catless headers to his 2002 6th gen. We installed a Power Commander V and the PCV's O2 sensor bypass resistors, running through a gutted stock 6th gen exhaust and using a PCV map straight from Dynojet's website. His bike runs like a raped date.

It's clear that the 6th gen front primaries cross over before meeting the secondaries, but I've done a bit of research and have not found a clear reason for the crossover. Duc2V4 suggests that it might be because of a change in firing order or to improve gas flow for the 6th gen's catalytic converter. I also do not know if a single option O2 sensor placement could work for both 5th and 6th gens. With a Power Commander and O2 bypass resistors, this is not an issue, but for people running stock ECUs or Rapidbike tuning modules, O2 sensors and their placement are a factor.

Looking forward to learning what some of the more experienced here can observe about the viability of a single header sufficing for both 5th and 6th gen VFRs.

25 minutes ago, sfdownhill

adkfinn, thanks for monitoring Black Widow's intentions.

Here's a production exhaust question:

Would a single set of performance headers work for both 5th and 6th gen VFR800s? It would be much easier to talk a manufacturer into producing a single system for 1998-2013 VFR800s than to require the development of two exhaust systems.

The root of my question stems from user Hammerdrill and I recently fitting a set of 98/99 catless headers to his 2002 6th gen. We installed a Power Commander V and the PCV's O2 sensor bypass resistors, running through a gutted stock 6th gen exhaust and using a PCV map straight from Dynojet's website. His bike runs like a raped date.

It's clear that the 6th gen front primaries cross over before meeting the secondaries, but I've done a bit of research and have not found a clear reason for the crossover. Duc2V4 suggests that it might be because of a change in firing order or to improve gas flow for the 6th gen's catalytic converter. I also do not know if a single option O2 sensor placement could work for both 5th and 6th gens. With a Power Commander and O2 bypass resistors, this is not an issue, but for people running stock ECUs or Rapidbike tuning modules, O2 sensors and their placement are a factor.

Looking forward to learning what some of the more experienced here can observe about the viability of a single header sufficing for both 5th and 6th gen VFRs.

The thought process has merit.

I seem to recall someone here who was talking to one of the exhaust places mentioning that they'd have to do 2 different types; one for each Gen? Maybe that was specifically for the crossover? Maybe they were over-complicating things? Are you saying the 5th Gen headers bolt straight up to a stock 6th gen link pipe? Interesting.

As for the bike now running better via seat of the pants measure, it's a shame you guys didn't do before and after dynos to see definitively how much of a difference the catless headers make, versus the stock ones.

6 hours ago, sfdownhill

adkfinn, thanks for monitoring Black Widow's intentions.

Here's a production exhaust question:

Would a single set of performance headers work for both 5th and 6th gen VFR800s? It would be much easier to talk a manufacturer into producing a single system for 1998-2013 VFR800s than to require the development of two exhaust systems.

The root of my question stems from user Hammerdrill and I recently fitting a set of 98/99 catless headers to his 2002 6th gen. We installed a Power Commander V and the PCV's O2 sensor bypass resistors, running through a gutted stock 6th gen exhaust and using a PCV map straight from Dynojet's website. His bike runs like a raped date.

It's clear that the 6th gen front primaries cross over before meeting the secondaries, but I've done a bit of research and have not found a clear reason for the crossover. Duc2V4 suggests that it might be because of a change in firing order or to improve gas flow for the 6th gen's catalytic converter. I also do not know if a single option O2 sensor placement could work for both 5th and 6th gens. With a Power Commander and O2 bypass resistors, this is not an issue, but for people running stock ECUs or Rapidbike tuning modules, O2 sensors and their placement are a factor.

Looking forward to learning what some of the more experienced here can observe about the viability of a single header sufficing for both 5th and 6th gen VFRs.

Crossover started in 2000, and I've seen it on a Euro model from '98 or '99 that also had a Cat/Con. My best uneducated guess is the Cat. Better flow as you suggested, or something else. Also in 2000 is when it changed to stainless from mild steel. Probably due to the high heat generated by the Cat.

A while ago I was messing with a Two Bros 5th Gen set that was in need of repairs. I was trying to get it to fit a 6th Gen, but it didn't bolt up. It wasn't my bike or exhaust, btw. The exhaust stud distance was different, and we determined that the stock 5th that everyone successfully swapped onto 6th Gens has slotted holes while the Two Bros had round holes that were slightly too narrow. 

Can anyone else confirm that the exhaust studs are different? The ports are the same, and the headers occupy the same physical space, but there is that slight hiccup I don't think I've seen anyone else comment on, but should be easily rectified by using slotted holes.

I don't currently have any unmounted headers in my garage, or a 6th Gen engine. So I can't compare at the moment. 

6 hours ago, sfdownhill

It's clear that the 6th gen front primaries cross over before meeting the secondaries, but I've done a bit of research and have not found a clear reason for the crossover. Duc2V4 suggests that it might be because of a change in firing order or to improve gas flow for the 6th gen's catalytic converter. I also do not know if a single option O2 sensor placement could work for both 5th and 6th gens. With a Power Commander and O2 bypass resistors, this is not an issue, but for people running stock ECUs or Rapidbike tuning modules, O2 sensors and their placement are a factor.

Looking forward to learning what some of the more experienced here can observe about the viability of a single header sufficing for both 5th and 6th gen VFRs.

OK so the cross over on the front pipes is a just a confusion caused by Honda messing with the rear pipes. On a 5th gen the #1 exhaust goes through the outer loop pipe by your right foot, on the 6th gen they realised that that made that primary pipe much longer than the rest, so they swapped it to the inside loop pipe, but that would have merged with the wrong front cylinder, so they had to add the crossover to the front pipes to keep the cylinder pairings the same for best flow. so basically its the same cylinder matching on the 2-1 headers as the 5th gen. But it is what causes the different vacuum settings on the 6th gen to the 5th. One 5th gen cylinder has a much lower vacuum setting (#4 IIRC) because of the exhaust flow. the 6th gen has equal balance, as in theory all the headers are very close to the same length.

On the exhaust manufacture, 5th+6th gen use the same basic exhaust layout, the only difference being the rear pipe connections & front cross over. I can't see it making much difference, as many people have put 98 pipes (or stainless copies) on their 6th gens with no issues. Be nice to know if they kept the 5th or 6th gen rear headers though !

On the O2 issue the stock ECU only issues any error warning if BOTH narrow band sensors lose their HEATING line voltage. You only need ONE O2 eliminator to avoid this, does not matter which as the base map has different setting for front & rear & all fuel modules add a +/-% to the injection duty cycle. So if #1 has say 55 & #2 has 50 as stock, then adding 10% more via PC/RB/Bazzaz etc only corrects the totals, so #1 now has 65 & #2 has 60. The AFR differences are still maintained & the closed loop cycle only does the same thing as a PC, by trimming the fuel delivery by a small amount whilst the engine is running in steady state because the narrow band sensor only sends a Rich or lean signal NOT an AFR like a wide band sensor.  So if it says RICH, the ECU reduces the injector cycle a bit, until it says LEAN, then increases a bit & continues to chase that around the ideal AFR.

If you use a wide band sensor for a PCV or Rapid Bike fueling module, then I just tapped into the narrow band sensors power supply via the stock connectors so that BOTH feed power to my wideband sensor, thus no need for O2 eliminators nor additional power cables to the wideband sensor !  NOTE;- You must USE BOTH power feeds for a wideband sensor, as they draw twice the power of a narrow band sensor & may melt a single feed !

Neat & avoids Fi fault codes.  But please NOTE the ECU still logs a narrow band sensor failure as its never receives a signal from it, but that is a secondary fault code, so does NOT activate the Fi warning light !  Only primary fault codes do.

YMMV 🙂

1 hour ago, KevCarver

A while ago I was messing with a Two Bros 5th Gen set that was in need of repairs. I was trying to get it to fit a 6th Gen, but it didn't bolt up. It wasn't my bike or exhaust, btw. The exhaust stud distance was different, and we determined that the stock 5th that everyone successfully swapped onto 6th Gens has slotted holes while the Two Bros had round holes that were slightly too narrow. 

Can anyone else confirm that the exhaust studs are different? The ports are the same, and the headers occupy the same physical space, but there is that slight hiccup I don't think I've seen anyone else comment on, but should be easily rectified by using slotted holes.

I don't currently have any unmounted headers in my garage, or a 6th Gen engine. So I can't compare at the moment. 

I put a two brothers header on my 6th gen and I didn't have any of those issues.

OML...  Wow   good to read folks here are still in the wth is going on. Good to know Mohawk on the washers,  I just turned some off on the lathe,  though they where soft brass not copper that and they need to be sorta non crush able as that's just asking for trouble IMO.  On the home front here, Gabe has now has had a slight change of whats important now that his latest  business partner flew the coop. He still has it at needing 10 folks for him to jump on it,  and at a grand a piece that's a tall order  for me to take on considering.   That and the way I understand it as now there's more 6thgen folks interested than 5th gen owners which is what I started with  ;) but know the header fits more a question about what will fit afterwards.    Good to hear those folks out of Sidney could jump up to the plate, but like me, sounds like they need 20 to get on board.  which begs the question will it pan out?  Knowing all to well it's a money game. 

Well, if Gabe is back on board, then that's likely our best bet. You've already contributed a lot to header development, and picking up from where we left off seems like the best idea. Perhaps we should compile an updated list of everyone who's in?

However, I believe one of the obstacles was that we were contributing to buying a header whose performance was unknown. Having just one proof of concept with some comparison dynos would speed up progress a lot. My guess is things would go 100% smoother after we have some photos and data.

but the flip side of that is, no manufacturer wants to outlay the time and money to make just one.

Van demon said 20, as they have about 10K of labour/tooling costs to cover.  If they know they'll sell 20, that's worth it. 20 deposits would make sense, but I haven't asked that question.

spending 10K to make 1K is kinda pointless from a business perspective.

Points from my point of view-

 even slightly better performance, but even less weight (ti?) would be pretty bloody good.

vandemon prices in aus dollars, people.

performance exhaust with centre stand seems counter intuitive. Performance takes precedence for me.

We should make sure we merge the front two together, and the back two so its better for rapid bike. Because I have one.

Stock outlet location so any aftermarket can works, even though VD make cans too. and my MT09 akra would need to be modded again.

I wont spend $1000US on a stainless exhaust system. I would for a Ti system, though.

Well, we have to start somewhere! At the very least, we need at least 10 people who are in or we're getting nothing. If we get 20 or more, then that will open up more possibilities. I want a header, so I'm in!

15 hours ago, KevCarver

Crossover started in 2000, and I've seen it on a Euro model from '98 or '99 that also had a Cat/Con. My best uneducated guess is the Cat. Better flow as you suggested, or something else. Also in 2000 is when it changed to stainless from mild steel. Probably due to the high heat generated by the Cat.

A while ago I was messing with a Two Bros 5th Gen set that was in need of repairs. I was trying to get it to fit a 6th Gen, but it didn't bolt up. It wasn't my bike or exhaust, btw. The exhaust stud distance was different, and we determined that the stock 5th that everyone successfully swapped onto 6th Gens has slotted holes while the Two Bros had round holes that were slightly too narrow. 

Can anyone else confirm that the exhaust studs are different? The ports are the same, and the headers occupy the same physical space, but there is that slight hiccup I don't think I've seen anyone else comment on, but should be easily rectified by using slotted holes.

I don't currently have any unmounted headers in my garage, or a 6th Gen engine. So I can't compare at the moment. 

Spinning flanges  were mentioned  at some stage to account for the slight differences between models iirc

2 hours ago, sfdownhill

KevCarver asked "Can anyone else confirm that the exhaust studs are different?"

Answer - CandyRed bolted up TBR headers to his 6th gen, and the 98/99 headers we bolted to a 6th gen had round-not-slotted holes - they went right onto the 6th gen's studs.

I'd still feel better if someone could give accurate measurements on the exhaust stud spacing between 5th and 6th gens. Those headers would not fit the 6th Gen I had in my garage at the time. I have a 5th Gen engine on the floor, so I couldn't fit them as a unit, but the removable rear pipes fit the studs on the rear. Maybe the tolerance on the 5th OEM flanges is loose enough to account for the difference? I don't know if they made a 6th Gen specific 2 Bros that CRRC46 used, or if it had larger holes for some reason.

Again, I didn't own either the 6th Gen or the TBR headers nor do I have them in my garage anymore.

I don't have quality, super accurate calipers, but I measured 55mm on the 5th Gen. It's 49mm inside, 61mm outside, 6mm stud to the best of my measuring abilities.

7 hours ago, KevCarver

I'd still feel better if someone could give accurate measurements on the exhaust stud spacing between 5th and 6th gens. Those headers would not fit the 6th Gen I had in my garage at the time. I have a 5th Gen engine on the floor, so I couldn't fit them as a unit, but the removable rear pipes fit the studs on the rear. Maybe the tolerance on the 5th OEM flanges is loose enough to account for the difference? I don't know if they made a 6th Gen specific 2 Bros that CRRC46 used, or if it had larger holes for some reason.

Again, I didn't own either the 6th Gen or the TBR headers nor do I have them in my garage anymore.

I don't have quality, super accurate calipers, but I measured 55mm on the 5th Gen. It's 49mm inside, 61mm outside, 6mm stud to the best of my measuring abilities.

It certainly makes sense to pay close attention to getting stud spacing between 5th and 6th gens right.

Great discussion.

Mohawk, your data dumps are always rich in valuable information and steeped in your extensive experience. Thanks for clearing up the reason for the primaries crossing over, and the functionality of the O2 sensors with OEM ECU vs PC/RB.

RVFR, I was bummed to find photobucket no longer hosts the photos you posted of your headers. Do the primaries of the TBR headers crossover like 6th gens?

It is my subjective opinion that the prototype should be built for smooth maximum torque and power curves from 6000rpm to 10000rpm, not max peak hp at redline.

Just a note in what I know, is the 98-99 header fits 6th gen,  and since as noted the Two bros header fits the 6th even though it was made for a 5th. only thing here I ran into as I started all this using my 5th gen, then was lucky enough to land a Two bros,  prior it was all speculative. Back to the performance side of things on the 5th gen it's been figured out there is around a 5-8hp gain with a PC3 and a dyno tune involved,  Not so sure on what is what with out those, other than my stock base run was 108, with KN air filter and stainetune,  it was also 45 degrees in Feb,  and used chevron premium,   I was heading to get the best no matter what, so it made sense to get it dialed in. But there's a bigger part to this than numbers,  the way the VFR now runs is as SF said " Harmonized"  pulls smooth from just about any rpm  plus pulls to a full 12K plus with no hesitation. It's hard to put in words, but just transformed the VFR totally   so there's really not much in question if it's for a 5th gen.   Now the 6th gen, that's different you have 02s and a different engine VTEC 😉  then add in the exhaust outlet deal,  I don't have a 6th gen to monkey with or this wouldn't be a question,  but if it's any where near what the layout of the two bros gives the 5th gen,  then yea its good.  BUT $1000 Good?  Now as far as the header flange goes,  IMO since I haven't looked at a GSXR gasket, the tubing used is thin wall 36mm, the port casting on the 5th gen  is like 36.5mm The Two bros header just barely slipped in,  I had the factory copper donuts,  what happen is they are made for 32mm tubes, hence what happen here was they where sucked into the center of the 36mm tube, LOL that won't work, So I made new ones out of soft brass that are a flat washer type, so far with 1500+  miles with this set up, no issues. But thats another process to figure out for the 6th gen.  Any who,  thought I'd share.  

Photo of said 2 bro header in place  just in case folks haven't or would like to see.

[image: 2bro.jpg]

I can take measurements of an 01 and an 09 this weekend of at least the front headers.

Delkevic sells the cooper donuts by the mm. i used 2mm larger then OEM 5th gen donuts for the TwoBros headers. 

10 hours ago, RVFR

Photo of said 2 bro header in place  just in case folks haven't or would like to see.

[image: 2bro.jpg]

Sharp photo, RVFR, made to order - clearly shows no crossover. Thanks for posting that.

Duc2V4, learning the measurements you offered to take will be muy informative.

gig, that’s great intel about Delkevic gaskets, made to order, working w your Two Brothers.

sfdownhill, 5/4/2018 at 11:33 AM

It certainly makes sense to pay close attention to getting stud spacing between 5th and 6th gens right.

IIRC... it isn’t the stud spacing but clock orientation of the exhuast studs; the 6th gen studs are clocked different to the 5th gen, that’s why spinning flanges solves the issue.

3 hours ago, Rush2112

IIRC... it isn’t the stud spacing but clock orientation of the exhuast studs; the 6th gen studs are clocked different to the 5th gen, that’s why spinning flanges solves the issue.

That sounds right, Rush. On both my 5th gen and Hammerdrill’s 6th gen, the flanges on the 98/99 headers would only match up in one orientation...some of ‘em had to get spun around to fit.

Hey all, I wasn’t able to get to the measurements this weekend but will try later this week or next weekend, I had family obligations on Saturday and other things to resolve today. To get proper measurements it looks like I’ll need to remove the front wheel and body panels so I’ll need some time to do that to both bikes.

So I touched base with Black Widow this morning:
 

www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk

Voided76, in your next communication with Lincoln, you might gently clarify that 5th gen 98-01 and 6th gen 02-09 are slightly different, then ask if the upgraded header they are developing is intended for one, the other, or both gens. Also, Honda produced 6th gens for Australia and some other countries through 2013.

I recognize your motivation to acquire a header for your 8th gen - I’d want one too - but I don’t see it being productive to ask Black Widow to double their current development efforts. Previous attempts to get VFR headers into production have been derailed by less.

Has anyone fitted 5th or 6th gen headers to 8th gen 2014-2018 VFRs?

The header shape would be different to  clear the lower front mount rad.

Keef's right.  but that's about the only thing actually different.  

The 8th gen primaries merge early on the back half then run to the collector,  but Delk's "new" 8th gen header runs two primaries all the way down in the same manner as a 5th or 6th,  so there's still aparently room to do it.  
'14-

[image: s-l1600.jpg]

'02-'13

[image: s-l1600.jpg]

Crazy Similar,  I'll bet it'd match right up.  

I wonder if you could in theory run a new school style header, use 3 rads on a 5-6th gen,  and have much improved cooling for a higher horsepower application?

Considering that Black Widow is still selling their "Sandy Bike Spares"-era 3rd-gen header/abomination, I wouldn't get your hopes up too high...

Ciao,

JZH, 5/13/2018 at 3:37 AM

Considering that Black Widow is still selling their "Sandy Bike Spares"-era 3rd-gen header/abomination, I wouldn't get your hopes up too high...

Ciao,

+1

... and on the 8th gen headers pictured they have the rear down pipe slip fit connections backwards; the upstream pipe should fit inside the downstream pipe for optimum exhaust flow.  In addition, with this configuration you are more likely to have leaks and blow by past the slip fit connection. It looks pretty the way they have it but for exhaust gas flow performance it is backwards.

2 hours ago, Rush2112

+1

... and on the 8th gen headers pictured they have the rear down pipe slip fit connections backwards; the upstream pipe should fit inside the downstream pipe for optimum exhaust flow.  In addition, with this configuration you are more likely to have leaks and blow by past the slip fit connection. It looks pretty the way they have it but for exhaust gas flow performance it is backwards.

Sharp eye, Rush. Evidently they put engineering on par with a residential central vacuum system into their headers.

Duc2V4, 5/6/2018 at 6:39 PM

Hey all, I wasn’t able to get to the measurements this weekend but will try later this week or next weekend, I had family obligations on Saturday and other things to resolve today. To get proper measurements it looks like I’ll need to remove the front wheel and body panels so I’ll need some time to do that to both bikes.

So I was able to look at both a 5 Gen (1999) and my 6 Gen (2009) as well as my 2001 and took rudimentary measurements. Both appeared to be the same. Considering I put a set of 98-99 cat-less headers on my 09 the day I took these, I can say that I did not have any issues with things fitting.

I took pics of the 5 and 6 gens for giggles.

5 Gen (1999)

[image: 41340103385_b32921d6ac_k.jpg]

6 Gen (2009)

[image: 42194711862_eb1941cd7c_k.jpg]

Don't forget the 8th Gen front pipes go wide around the lower radiator fan so as a completely different shape to the 5th/6th Gen.

Also, as I found when making up my own pipes from a set of RC45 ones, the rear headers need more room for the 6th/8th Gen cam chain tensioner as it sticks out a fair bit from the rear of the head.

Voided76, 5/12/2018 at 2:59 AM

So I touched base with Black Widow this morning:
 

[image: AIbEiAIAAABECI2GqanJr8zixAEiC3ZjYXJkX3Bob3RvKihkZjhlOWMzZTMyZDVmZjkyMDc0NDVhODFjNzU0MjZkOTllYmYyYjk3MAFuxUJA9dpWQMcF_az_ZyE-HI9kiQ?sz=24]

Michael Spence <voided76@gmail.com>	11:50 AM (11 hours ago) [image: cleardot.gif]		[image: cleardot.gif] [image: cleardot.gif]
to sales [image: cleardot.gif]

Good Afternoon/Evening

So it's been 3 months since I pitched the idea/specs,  how has everything been going for the project?
I'm currently near Sri Lanka so I apologize for any weirdness in time or delivery.  Another thing to consider with the header is:  
The rear two cyls,  merge and exit to midpipe/silencer on the brand new 14-18 VFR are all nearly identical.  The front two pipes would need to be made to clear the new frontal radiator, while facilitating the change of the oil filter.  

Considering I now (only) own a 2014 VFR,  while I'm super interested for my buddies to finally get a header, a worthwhile adaptation for the new VFR is of particular interest to me now 🙂

Respectfully,
HM3 Michael C Spence
US NAVY [image: profile_mask2.png]

sales@blackwidowexhausts.co.uk <sales@blackwidowexhausts.co.uk>	3:55 PM (7 hours ago) [image: cleardot.gif]		[image: cleardot.gif] [image: cleardot.gif]
to me

Hi Michael, We are developing an upgraded VFR800 1997-2002 header at the moment. Thanks for your specs but we have our own data that we will be using. Please watch our Facebook page for updates. Best regards   Lincoln   Black Widow Exhausts Ltd 8 High Barns, Roxton, Bedfordshire MK44 3ET Tel: +44 (0) 1234 871009

www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk

From: Michael Spence [voided76@gmail.com]
Sent: 11 May 2018 06:50
To: sales@blackwidowexhausts.co.uk
Subject: Re: VFR800 Race Headers [image: AIbEiAIAAABECI2GqanJr8zixAEiC3ZjYXJkX3Bob3RvKihkZjhlOWMzZTMyZDVmZjkyMDc0NDVhODFjNzU0MjZkOTllYmYyYjk3MAFuxUJA9dpWQMcF_az_ZyE-HI9kiQ?sz=24]

Michael Spence <voided76@gmail.com>	10:55 PM (0 minutes ago) [image: cleardot.gif]		[image: cleardot.gif] [image: cleardot.gif]
to sales [image: cleardot.gif]

Hello again!

By any chance are you willing to release any info on your specs?  Inner diameter of the primary tubes?
The gents on the VFR boards are literally beside themselves waiting on data, let alone results.

The 98-02,  also fits all the way up to 2009...  🙂

BW Not willing to share specs then?

I haven't heard back from them,  so my guess is no,  at current.

So I touched base with BlackWidow on their FB page to see where they're at with production of the 5th/6th race header.

Waiting on an answer,  but scrolling back a month or so I have seen a LOT of race quality stuff coming out.  K7 GSXR,  ZX6R 2010, SV650,  ZRX11/12,  others as well.on the way.

It seems like a real possibility that the VFR header is at least developing along with the steady new releases coming out.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed boys.  

Not sure if this is their bike or whose this is, but it was Also featured on their webpage.

Could be their test and jig mule for the header though.  time will tell considering I'm pretty sure from the tone of the steel, it's a 6th gen header on that 5er.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2141146822830310&id=1574792279465770&comment_id=2141602119451447&notif_t=feed_comment&notif_id=1530396895659930&ref=m_notif

So!

In case you can't get that to open:
"Good Morning Black Widow Exhausts,

I was advised a number of months ago to inquire about a race-spec VFR exhaust?
I've been deployed to the middle of the pacific and this is the first I have been able to inquire about this.
Any progress to report on this?  inquiring VFR owners want to know!"

"Hi Michael,
the VFR 98-01 header race specification header is nearly past our R&D stages of development.  A few minor changes,  and the last test set will be bent and laid next week.  Some more testing and we will hopefully get our anticipated results we are expecting.  

If approved in the next 2-3 weeks we will have headers to market in 2-3 months time.  We apologise for the wait,  but these will be the best VFR headers ever made."

Here.  We.  Go.  
I like being persistant. I really do.😎

Oh my God! Rocking horse poo available before Christmas! Could it be to good to be true?

we'll certainly see,  won't we.  

my poking and prodding and emails I think might have finally paid off.  

...it only took 5 years.  😐

Now if we can just talk Dan in to reopening production of the 5th gen SC kit . . . well, ok - we can all fantasize, can't we??  :laugh:

fantacizing is exactly what a good third of the forums has been accusing us of when we wanted a legitimate race header for our bikes.

"just buy a faster bike" 

Never say never.

If Dan would build the 8th gen torocharger I would buy one in a heartbeat

and an  8th gen to put it on, I mean that package needs something to push air into...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VFR800-VFR-800-02-13-V-TEC-RC46-SILENCERS-CI23R-CARBON-TITANIUM-END-SILENCERS/152650127825?epid=624854342&hash=item238aa819d1:g:0lUAAOSwIclZhGJp&vxp=mtr

So that must be the race inspired can setup for the 6th.

Is that globby looking thing of a header the header?

Or is that the old stuff?  I have no idea.

Update:

I poked them with a stick like I said I would,  And BW has indicated their racebred header for the VFR will be a next year release now.
🙁  far cry from "Just a few months now!" back in july.

That's disappointing, "next year" is a very small step from "not in our plans"

I wonder if multiple VFR header questions would get them moving.......

I went ahead and pinged BW, got the following reply -

Quote

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your email. We do have the bike and are working on it now. The 2002-2013 is still in development, we do not have a date for the release as there is still a lot of R&D to be done. Best regards Lincoln

One more tidbit - I also touched based with BW again and received this:

~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Nathan,

8 hours ago, adkfinn

One more tidbit - I also touched based with BW again and received this:

~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Nathan,

  We have successfully completed all of our R&D on the 1998-01 VFR800 performance headers and will be doing a production run on them in the next 8-12 weeks.   They will be ready for Jan-Feb 2019 and are a a greatly improved and upgraded design. We have made some major changes to the design to improve the look, performance and fit while being compatible with the original muffler.   Please watch our Facebook page as we will announce the release there.   We will also be adding an email me when in stock option to our website nearer the completion date.   Kindest regards   Lincoln ~~~~~~~~~~~   Hopefully they come through and this is a legit performance pipe with some dyno testing to back it up. I am really pleased with the BW high mount I installed and it'd be nice to find some performance (a tall order) and weight savings over the stock pipe. 

**** Whoa!!! **** :beer:

8 hours ago, adkfinn Hopefully they come through and this is a legit performance pipe with some dyno testing to back it up. I am really pleased with the BW high mount I installed and it'd be nice to find some performance (a tall order) and weight savings over the stock pipe. 

Yep, this.

I would hope their "R&D" has included back-to-back dyno runs against the (hopefully) 98-99 catless header, so there is empirical evidence of any claimed power/torque increases.

"If" there are reasonable gains, and "if" the header is demonstrably lighter than OEM, I could be talked into a set. 

Holy smokes, this is looking good.  I will be buying one as soon as it is released, getting it ceramic coated and will Dyno this beauty.

33 minutes ago, kave

Holy smokes, this is looking good.  I will be buying one as soon as it is released, getting it ceramic coated and will Dyno this beauty.

Good news. Make sure you dyno your existing one first, so we can all see back-to-back figures.

Ok, got me watching now

Just saw this on eBay: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F382587019138

Looks like Lextek are on the game too. I believe they are a Chinese outfit but make decent end cans (almost as good as Akrapovic but not quite, according to online reviews). 

I like the collector but downpipes look a bit square from the mandrel. No idea what size the tubes are but they don’t look thin. 

Stray 

Ya know,  that ain't a half bad looking system, way better than what's coming out over in Europe by what I've seen. Had I need one, I'd jump on this, if ,one they can be trusted to get it here. Looking at the bends and welds,  then how they did the rear collector tubes, very interesting.  then look at how they increased the size of the tubes. IMO this was thought out and look to be better than decent. Question now is,  who's buying one?  They also state what years, LOL   97 is a 4th gen,   02 is a 6th,  doh....But have O2 ports. No Cat... If one is needing a header, one should seriously be thinking about this one,  and at a price that seems way reasonable.  again who's game.   Nice find Stray  .  

The only problem I see with them pipes is that they pair the two rear and the two front. 

Very different to stock 5G two right and two left pairs. 

Tube size looks to be larger and well made.  

Looks like Lextek doesn't ship to the usa. Too bad. Guess I'll wait for BW's header, but that Lextek one does look nice though. 

3 hours ago, VFROZ

The only problem I see with them pipes is that they pair the two rear and the two front. 

Very different to stock 5G two right and two left pairs. 

Tube size looks to be larger and well made.  

VFROZ, I’m not a fluid dynamics expert so I ask out of pure curiosity: does it matter which downpipes are linked together?

I know it’s best to alternate the pulses at the link (you don’t want both pulses getting to the link at the same time as they’d collide and impede flow) but is there a reason to pair left and right rather than front and back? 

I believe the best way to achieve smooth linking is to make one pipe slightly longer than the other so the pulses enter the link at different times, although you also need to consider firing order too. 

Thats why race headers have some downpipes with more severe curls than others - the really curly one is the longer downpipe.

If you’re trimming air/fuel mixture with an O2 sensor for each bank of cylinders then splitting front and rear is best as I believe the rear cylinders run richer than the front. On OEM pipes the O2 sensor is picking up a mix of rich rear and lean front cylinder. On the Lextek your O2 sensor only picks up the two rich rear cylinders or two lean front cylinders. The Lextek gives better scope for tuning, no? 

On the other hand the stock ECU probably only has a single stoich setting. So getting one lean reading sensor (front) and one rich reading sensor (rear) will drive it mad. 

Conclusion: if you’re running a fuelling module (Rapid Bike, PC or Bazzaz, for instance) with per-cylinder tuning then you want a front/back split header. If you’re running the OEM system with two probes then you want the more balanced left/right split header. 

Have I messed this theory up? Does anything I say make sense any more? 

Again, please forgive my ignorance - I’m genuinely curious. 

Stray

9 hours ago, RVFR

97 is a 4th gen,   02 is a 6th

RVFR, my 5th Gen is a1997. Must have been one of the first off the production line (Irish import I think, as it came in KPH rather than MPH). 

Do do you think it looks better than Delkevic? 

There’s a Motad system on eBay too. These are no longer made as company went bust. 

2 hours ago, Stray

RVFR, my 5th Gen is a1997. Must have been one of the first off the production line (Irish import I think, as it came in KPH rather than MPH). 

Do do you think it looks better than Delkevic? 

Oh yes. No question. But that doesn't necessarily mean it works any better.

Yes.. But looks are subjective..   jury is still out, but will say there's more thought in this one,  so did they do us right?  That still needs to be answered.    Awe, my Viffer was built 11/97 ,  My 4th gen was built 04/97

I have noticed that all the performance headers for the Tuono V4 are set up the same, including the Akra. 

Anyone with the know how who want to take lead on this possibility? Exhaust are not my area of expertise, neither is English!

Edit:

Yes I have made contact with the shop manager, and yes they where interested.

Stumbled upon this company on one of the engine tuning places I spend my lazy days on Facebook.

The pics attached is what he sent me, proving quality of work, was built for a Ducati 888.

I think he can end our never ending headers project, and for the guys focusing on weights, they do titanium and inconel as well...

As always, these nice things never gets produced in my backyard (Norway) but I suspect there are some UK guys her as well. Had I been in England I'd sure put my bike with him this winter!

What do you think?

Links

https://www.cskraceexhausts.co.uk

https://www.facebook.com/CSKRaceExhausts

CSK Race Exhausts Unit F T: 01759 307 042Pocklington Ind Estate E: info@cskraceexhausts.co.ukPocklington S: @CSKRaceExhaustsYork YO42 1NP[image: 3112ef8e87f3150616978ea29a2c6901.jpg&key=afba3ce7d39be06a4d849cfd4bb2700974a4d1bdb94eb1fc220dc1cdff8b33b5][image: 9a514f1f8b7588c2e8f21c8ed61c8965.jpg&key=c2c80756ea219803f3f7b149688a55c795d1b46d442caba9383ac2e61baa62e7][image: da24e13511e21ea8c3d0829991f9e279.jpg&key=393f96b26885b11822dae18b98d59dfac4f0c3458488c4a83af732a690d2c0b8][image: c1db2fb29244a65d38ed69571b2ba458.jpg&key=745aade753b4dc417881f14e5ca76d948594f57b8def8450c1c017f8fb7891ca]

We're definitely happy to help you guys out with this and try get some performance headers made up. 

Sorry for being lazy and not reading through the thread to get caught up (don't have the time).

If you would like us to develop some headers we would need a bike to develop on ideally and the specs you guys think will produce the best figures. 

My direct email is Louis@cskraceexhausts.co.uk 

Man, those do look cool, but I don't think I can budget food and those pipes too. 🙂

Stray, 10/22/2018 at 8:32 PM

Just saw this on eBay: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F382587019138

Looks like Lextek are on the game too. I believe they are a Chinese outfit but make decent end cans (almost as good as Akrapovic but not quite, according to online reviews). 

I like the collector but downpipes look a bit square from the mandrel. No idea what size the tubes are but they don’t look thin. 

Stray 

Although it looks nice, gonna remain skeptical on this one till I see borescope pics of the merge. The reason the SBS headers were crap is they had a merge like that, but the tube was cut and fit over a roughly cut hole that was severely undersize vs a quality, fit-for-flow merge. 

2 hours ago, FJ12Ryder

Man, those do look cool, but I don't think I can budget food and those pipes too. 🙂

A man can last up to 31 days without food.

You might have to strech it to 91 days though.

19 minutes ago, VFROZ

A man can last up to 31 days without food.

You might have to strech it to 91 days though.

That would help drop weight too. 🙂

3 hours ago, LouisWhiteCSK

We're definitely happy to help you guys out with this and try get some performance headers made up. 

Sorry for being lazy and not reading through the thread to get caught up (don't have the time).

If you would like us to develop some headers we would need a bike to develop on ideally and the specs you guys think will produce the best figures. 

My direct email is Louis@cskraceexhausts.co.uk 

Here it is, folks. Time to put up or shut up about the headers. Get them a donor bike and make it happen!

1 hour ago, thtanner

Here it is, folks. Time to put up or shut up about the headers. Get them a donor bike and make it happen!

Well I definitely tried to "put up" once before. I volunteered both my 5 and 6 Gens to the builder who was located in Corona, California, unfortunately that went nowhere. Also unfortunate, CSK is in the UK, too costly to get my bikes there for the cause!

7 minutes ago, Duc2V4

Well I definitely tried to "put up" once before. I volunteered both my 5 and 6 Gens to the builder who was located in Corona, California, unfortunately that went nowhere. Also unfortunate, CSK is in the UK, too costly to get my bikes there for the cause!

Come now, you don't want to spend twice the value of the bike getting it there? 😉 

It is for our UK friends to step up on that one.

hell for a system like that it would almost be worth it to just buy a old rough vfr and have it dropped off for fitment ( would be cheaper than shipping mine there anyways)

7 hours ago, thtanner

Come now, you don't want to spend twice the value of the bike getting it there? 😉 

It is for our UK friends to step up on that one.

If it didn't already look like we had a good as certain header on the way, I would have made the journey this weekend and dropped off my 5g.  If it doesn't materialise, I will indeed do so.

1 hour ago, kave

If it didn't already look like we had a good as certain header on the way, I would have made the journey this weekend and dropped off my 5g.  If it doesn't materialise, I will indeed do so.

If the other fabricators don't pull through with a quality part we're happy to get cracking on this once we have someone willing to donate a bike and pay for the first set. 

The bonus of us producing them is that we can then supply in Inconel and Titanium by request. 

Keep me updated 👍🏽

LouisWhiteCSK If the other fabricators don't pull through with a quality part we're happy to get cracking on this once we have someone willing to donate a bike and pay for the first set. 
 
The bonus of us producing them is that we can then supply in Inconel and Titanium by request. 
 
Keep me updated [image: emoji1417.png]

We need to know a few details before we get moving just so everything is understood and clear for us as well as you guys. 

Preferably we would want to develop them on a bike as there may be a slightly better route than the one which the stock headers take a and also it is better for us to perfect the fitment and clearance of other parts. 

- What material (304, 316, titanium, inconel)

- Material thickness

- Bore size

- Collector style (Pressed or properly cut and fabricated race collectors)

- Slip joints, with springs or with clamps?

- Finish (seamless un-welded finish, brushed finish, fully polished finish, brushed with raw welds)

Price point? All of these factors will account into costing.

The production of the jig will cost us hours in time to produce also.

Realistically the cheapest variant we could produce from Stainless would be around the £900-1000 unless we had 10+ upfront orders with deposits paid then we could workout a better cost.

Thanks for jumping on this, Louis. Your company makes good gear. 

I’m based over 2 hours from you but the bike (1998 5th Gen) is in bits and not roadworthy. It won’t be finished for another two months. 

If someone on here has a van/flatbed and willing to drive the bike from Loughborough to Pocklington I’m willing to lend it to CSK.

Failing that, I’ve just bought a spare engine (that I could drive up myself) but I feel CSK would prefer the bike for routing/clearance purposes. Also have my rusty old 1998 OEM headers (still attached to the bike, but I could remove them for this project). 

Just to be clear I cannot afford a header like this - not even close. But I’m happy to lend my bike as a jig so others with deeper pockets can purchase. 

Louis, when you say a better price can be had via group buy (10+ deposits etc), what sort of money are you talking? What’s the price differential between stainless (304-316), inconel and titanium? What are the benefits of clamps vs springs or the various metals? 

Finally, is there a performance difference between mandrel bent vs welded segment headers? The system is not visible with fairings so bling doesn’t really matter. Whatever is cheaper would probably be best. 

Best, 

Stray 

I'll put my hand up and say that - if the headers are produced, AND make measurable gains (HP), and losses) weight), I'll stump up a deposit for a set.

As you'd imagine, it would only be a deposit (I wouldn't be handing over big $ in advance of something which may never materialise, and would only hand over any $ with the understanding that the deposit is fully refundable if the headers don't every actually get produced.

Can't lend my bike, given exorbitant shipping costs between Oz and the other side of the world.

Naturally, there's a lot of water to go under the bridge before anything happens on this front.

As a start, can one of the experts on exhaust flow pipe up with some indicative specs (I think some primary ID and OD sizes have been posted elsewhere in one of the header threads). 

I'm guessing that most - like me - would prefer to retain the centre stand (or at least have the ability to have it there if required)?

Just a refresh of sorts here in what happen.  In the short of it, the gentleman that was able to make the header at the time was going to make them up as ordered.  on a one on one.   Then as time had it,  it was taking longer to confirm what was what.  Gabe then had the opportunity to launched his full time business out of his garage to his shop, Then it got down to for him to proceed here,  he would need 10 paid up front orders to makes this happen. if that wasn't enough, the 6th gen that was going to be used as a mock up bike didn't materialize, so all i was left with is what I had come up with, and that for the most part was for 5th gens. I have the tubing size how it goes etc, etc.  But the hang up was $10,000  as these where also going to run  $1000 plus shipping. So it fell to the way side.  That said, I do know the header with a ECU up grade will add like 3-5hp, 2 ft of torque.  I know that doesn't sound like much,  but it's more than that. it actually transforms how the engine behaves all through out the RPM range.  But as it would be,  things just fell off the grid to the point now Gabe isn't interested in doing this.  if you have Instagram, you can see his work go here https://www.instagram.com/rampage_fab/    would of loved to see this happen.  So close. 

I'll try to cover everyone's responses here...

@Stray We would ideally need the bike yes, nice of you to offer on behalf of the group. 

Price wise for 10+ we would have to work out once we had a bike and the first set made up just so we know exactly how long it takes to produce and how quick they could be made in batches.

Price difference is as follows for stainless, inconel & titanium.

304 - £18/m 

316 - £22/m

Inconel - £129.99/m 

Titanium - £129.99/m

Titnanium and inconel take approx 1.5x more manufacturing time. Pie cut systems can be even more so. 

The only difference between clamps and springs is that you get a little more movement in the system with springs. 

We don't have a mandrel bender as there is only 3 people to our team. Everything would have to be made up of sections, The good thing is that with our welds being back purged and fully penetrating it leaves the same clean join on the inside as it does on the outside which won't limit the system noticeably at all.  

@EX-XX In regards to taking deposits I think we need to get a bike in before anything so we can price it accurately and calculate the time we would need to create the jig too, but we don't mess around with jobs as we have tonnes to do so if a bike appeared and someone is paying for the headers they will be built 100%.

How is the exhaust involved with the centre stand? I don't know the bikes so not sure on where everything sits. If there is a mount that's needed we can make it work. 

Finally @RVFR please could you get the spec list over to me for tube sizing, tube length, basically everything you've got on the matter would be awesome. 

Thanks.

@LouisWhiteCSK Yes, probably best you get hold of a 5th Gen to measure up etc. One of the considerations in designing headers for these - and any other "Sports Touring" motorcycle which has a centre stand - is the need to route the exhaust so it allows the centre stand to be used and stored through the full range of motion.

21 hours ago, RVFR

Just a refresh of sorts here in what happen.  In the short of it, the gentleman that was able to make the header at the time was going to make them up as ordered.  on a one on one.   Then as time had it,  it was taking longer to confirm what was what.  Gabe then had the opportunity to launched his full time business out of his garage to his shop, Then it got down to for him to proceed here,  he would need 10 paid up front orders to makes this happen. if that wasn't enough, the 6th gen that was going to be used as a mock up bike didn't materialize, so all i was left with is what I had come up with, and that for the most part was for 5th gens. I have the tubing size how it goes etc, etc.  But the hang up was $10,000  as these where also going to run  $1000 plus shipping. So it fell to the way side.  That said, I do know the header with a ECU up grade will add like 3-5hp, 2 ft of torque.  I know that doesn't sound like much,  but it's more than that. it actually transforms how the engine behaves all through out the RPM range.  But as it would be,  things just fell off the grid to the point now Gabe isn't interested in doing this.  if you have Instagram, you can see his work go here https://www.instagram.com/rampage_fab/    would of loved to see this happen.  So close. 

bummer on this front, like throwing away money, donated $$$ for nothing.

on a side note of that, Louis if this happens I am on board for a system for my 6 gen. money has been set aside for 2 years now

19 hours ago, LouisWhiteCSK

We don't have a mandrel bender as there is only 3 people to our team. Everything would have to be made up of sections, The good thing is that with our welds being back purged and fully penetrating it leaves the same clean join on the inside as it does on the outside which won't limit the system noticeably at all.  

Finally @RVFR please could you get the spec list over to me for tube sizing, tube length, basically everything you've got on the matter would be awesome. 

Louis,

I'll jump in here to give a bit of background... This super header wish list has been going on for around 3 years. Originally there was about 25 members saying they would pony up a deposit on a performance header set. It has been passed around by a handful of members that were out to get it done. The original model was simular to the 2 Brothers Racing company that made a header for our bikes for a few years and quit. Somewhere in the hundreds of posts/threads here is a preferred spec on tube diameters. Also part of the wishlist is to be able to use the header on the 5th gen and 6th bikes - generally 1998 to (help me guys) 2010 VFR800s. The architecture of the engines is near identical, but the 6ths are slightly different on the rear ports. (Again, help me 6th genners.) 

A consensus on anything is tough going. Possibly some of us may want to ceramic coat the header for heat control so that points to a stainless construction. Inconel or titanum is way too costly for us..... Also plenty of us want to use the current aftermarket silencer exhaust we already have. 

General question... you mentioned you dont have a mandrel.... producing 1 of anything is ok for a prototype build, but can you build 25 (or 40) identical copies? Your work is beautiful, but I know from experience, its a tough job on a small production run. 

- Can you guys do any CAD work? If you could look at making this for the 2014 to current 8th gen, (different front downpipes) you would have a bigger market. CAD models of the 3 bikes would probably help greatly. 

Cheers  :beer:

I'm just gonna jump in to mention that Delkevic uses the same rear downtubes and collector parts in their system for all the 800 models. 

They swap out the front tubes for 2014+ models (which are curved to the outsides like the RC30 vs forward like 98-09 VFR800). They use 35mm OD 1.5mm wall tubing for 1998+ VFR systems.

Their collector sucks but the bends are nice, and the modular concept is a smart move for production. 

Taking a page from their book re: modularity and tubing size but replacing the collector with a proper set of triple Y merges would be ideal.

Hi Louis - welcome to vfrd and the VFR community. We are glad to see that you have joined up. As many have expressed, we are also happy to discover a proficient exhaust fabricator who is interested in our project.

Following on to mello dude's recap and Sebspeed's suggestions in posts above, there does exist a 'consensus design' that generated interest in the form of a  list of 25 members who wanted to purchase headers. The consensus is old and may be subject to revision, but it was what VFR owners wanted at one time. Louis, the bullet points below are suggestions, and are presented for your consideration and evaluation. Here are the specs, in no particular order:

[1] header final collector exits at OEM position, with the same o.d. as o.d. of the sleeve gasket that fits between

     OEM header and OEM muffler

     [allows use of aftermarket midpipes and mufflers built for OEM headers]

[2] header designed to fit both 5th gen and 6th gen VFR800s

      [a] see note below regarding fitment similarities between the gens

      8th gen with its front mounted radiator can be accommodated with modular front primaries. 5th and 6th

      gens have side mounted radiators

 [3] header assembly has two short primary stubs mounted to front cylinder head with spring fitting connection

      to modular front primaries

      [see Sebspeed's post]

[4] rear J-shaped primaries bolt directly to rear head with OEM-type flanges [no stubs]

[5] header constructed of 18g 304 stainless steel tubing with 35.6mm ID primary tubing, 39mm ID secondary

      tubing, 49mm ID collector discharge

     [diameters derived from TBR headers and VFR community]

[6] header is constructed with two bungs for O2 sensors in OEM positions, supplied with plugs for those who

     won't be using O2 sensors

     [OEM bungs are located on secondary tubes downstream of primary tubes' merge point]

[7] header design maintains placement and operation of OEM center stand

[8] connections at tubing joints are slip-fits with spring tension

[9] final header assembly connects to muffler assembly by band-type clamp with threaded bolt tension

The Two Brothers racing header - now out of production and extremely difficult to obtain - is used as a reference because it is a known quantity; a number of members have TBR headers and greatly enjoy the performance gains they produce. This header does not produce an enormous leap in top-end horsepower or torque, rather, its primary benefit is a meaty boost in midrange power, torque, and throttle response. The benefit is felt strongly between 6000rpm and 10,000rpm - the exact range where we enthusiastically revel in our modest road-going machines and the power delivery of their V4 engines. Note - 5th and 6th gens both redline at 11,800rpm.

One member has a TBR header assembly in good condition, off the bike, and has graciously offered to provide it for measurements and modeling if it advances the production of a performance header for our VFRs.

Fitment notes:

Hi Louis - welcome to vfrd and the VFR community. We are glad to see that you have joined up. As many have expressed, we are also happy to discover a proficient exhaust fabricator who is interested in our project.

Following on to mello dude's recap and Sebspeed's suggestions in posts above, there does exist a 'consensus design' that generated interest in the form of a  list of 25 members who wanted to purchase headers. The consensus is old and may be subject to revision, but it was what VFR owners wanted at one time. Louis, the bullet points below are suggestions, and are presented for your consideration and evaluation. Here are the specs, in no particular order:

[1] final header collector exits at OEM position, with the same o.d. as the o.d. of the sleeve gasket that fit

     between OEM header assembly and OEM muffler

     [allows use of aftermarket midpipes and mufflers that fit OEM headers]

[2] header fits both 5th gen and 6th gen VFR800s

      [a] see note below regarding fitment similarities between the gens

      8th gen with its front mounted radiator can be accommodated with modular front primaries.

      [5th and 6th gens have side mounted radiators]

 [3] header assembly has short primary stubs mounted to front cylinder head with spring fitting connection to

     modular front primaries [see Sebspeed's post]

[4] rear J-shaped primaries bolt directly to rear head with OEM-type flanges [no stubs]

[5] 18g 304 stainless steel tubing with 35.6mm ID primary tubing, 39mm ID secondary tubing,

     49mm ID collector discharge [diameters derived from TBR headers]

[6] two bungs for O2 sensors in OEM positions, supplied with plugs for those who won't be using O2 sensors

     [OEM bungs are located on secondary tubes downstream of primary tubes' merge point]

[7] maintain placement and operation of OEM center stand

[8] connections at tubing joints are slip-fits with spring tension

[9] final header assembly connects to muffler assembly by band-type clamp with threaded bolt tension

The Two Brothers racing header - now out of production and extremely difficult to find - is used as a reference because it is a known quantity - a number of members have TBR headers and enjoy the performance gains they produce. This header does not produce a significant increase in top-end horsepower or torque. Its primary benefit is a fat boost in midrange power, torque, and throttle response. The benefit is felt between 6000rpm and 10,000rpm - the range where we enthusiastically revel in our modest machines and the power delivery of their V4 engines. 5th and 6th gens redline at 11,800rpm.

A member has a TBR header assembly in good condition, off the bike, and is willing to provide it for measurements and modeling if it advances the production of a performance header for the VFR.

Fitment:

[image: gallery_2785_5165_562057.thumb.jpg.d2350993954a14335b79bf9e5b4ee578.jpg]

A look at TBR from another angle:

[image: 1792880196_TwoBrothersheaders1.thumb.jpg.8ef699416d2eb0be1efd75bb9ba376f3.jpg]

And the song goes "A little bit closer now"

[image: e4f88d9cc133f0eec635aa25ac04a484.jpg.65ef3ab8bc1d1ab212e5165bf400b7a3.jpg]

Here are 1998-1999 OEM VFR headers

[image: 98_99_header_1.thumb.JPG.95c417b445438ca94ba6a14932797b17.JPG]

[image: 98_99_header_2.thumb.JPG.893b845cf5146e4fd8a149da34b21c3f.JPG]

Last, and probably least, 6th gen headers [Sorry 6th gen dudes, these could just as well be 2000-2001 5th gen headers]:

[image: 6th_gen_header_1.thumb.JPG.2ec80b34379cdeefa3a9ba106db0e583.JPG]

[image: 6th_gen_header_2.thumb.JPG.36b8d68ba497c55eb7bfdc967edab7ce.JPG]

6 hours ago, SEBSPEED

I'm just gonna jump in to mention that Delkevic uses the same rear downtubes and collector parts in their system for all the 800 models. 

They swap out the front tubes for 2014+ models (which are curved to the outsides like the RC30 vs forward like 98-09 VFR800). They use 35mm OD 1.5mm wall tubing for 1998+ VFR systems.

Their collector sucks but the bends are nice, and the modular concept is a smart move for production. 

Taking a page from their book re: modularity and tubing size but replacing the collector with a proper set of triple Y merges would be ideal.

Seems to me this is crucial for any prospective manufacturer. The problem is always going to be cost of design/manufacture vs size of market and since in this case it wouldn't impact on performance, modularity just HAS to be the way to go.

I could do with some clarification though. Is the collector outlet the same on the 5th Gen as the 6th Gen? Obviously completely different systems downstream, but is the collector actually interchangeable?

The reason I ask is because my requirement for such an exhaust is to suit an 800 special I'm building which will have the 6th Gen high level rear end, but as a naked bike will need the front rad of the 8th Gen and hence the wide spaced front downtubes. Seems to me from what Seb says, this could be done by piecing together Delkevic parts. But how do they use the same collector, unless the outlet is actually the same for the 5th and 6th Gens. Or do they use the same actual collector but have different outlets that can be attached?. Hence my question.

Actually another thought. Why do Honda cross the pipes over. Since they cross both front and back it doesn't change the merge order, so why do it. I can't see any obvious reason. Anyone?

Thanks for all the information guys.

In terms of production we could probably make 10 per week and they would all be identical or near as dammit due to the jig and the measurements that partner with the jig. Much higher quality than any factory produced exhaust systems. 

Basically for us to move forward now we need a bike, preferably a 6th gen. 

Also we would need someone willing to foot the bill for the first set and the jig production. If we had orders in place we could probably ignore the cost of the jig production. 

If we can arrange a bike to be here we can start work on this on the 26th November and have a jig by Friday the 30th so people can have them under the Christmas tree!

These are an example of our collectors, we produce everything in house and don't like to use pressed ones.

They can be made to any size so we would need to calculate the ideal length of the merge.

[image: CSK-Y-Piece-3.jpg]

Rush2112, 5/15/2018 at 3:49 AM

+1

... and on the 8th gen headers pictured they have the rear down pipe slip fit connections backwards; the upstream pipe should fit inside the downstream pipe for optimum exhaust flow.  In addition, with this configuration you are more likely to have leaks and blow by past the slip fit connection. It looks pretty the way they have it but for exhaust gas flow performance it is backwards.

As far as I can make out, you +1'd JZH's comment about Black Widow, but then commented on the Delkevic which indeed seems to have their 8th Gen rear slip joints backwards.

It does seem wrong to me, but in reality, does it actually make any difference. Not to the flow as there is the same small gap in the otherwise smooth internal bore. Where that gap then leads is surely incidental. Also, would it affect potential sealing of the joint? Since static pressure is going to be exerted in all directions equally, the only difference would be due to the movement of the gas and like the flow, I don't see how the direction the gap takes could make any difference. Indeed with a perfect seal, it could make no difference.

As I said, it does seem wrong to me, but is that in fact just a misguided concern.

VFROZ, 10/24/2018 at 9:46 AM

I have noticed that all the performance headers for the Tuono V4 are set up the same, including the Akra. 

I think this is something that needs to be settled. Honda pair the Lefts and the Rights as did TBR and Erion before that (same guy I think). Although the Tuono is Fronts and Rears paired, that may not be relevant to our requirement. The Aprilia has a different cylinder angle and I've no idea what the firing order, nor crank angle is. So what works best for Aprilia V4 power may not work for the VFR.

So I would tend towards thinking the original Honda merge style would be best. Everyone holds up the TBR as the system to copy and that's what they use so does it not make sense to stick with that?

Has this been discussed with BW? Any idea what their intentions are with regard to this aspect?

5 hours ago, LouisWhiteCSK

Thanks for all the information guys.

In terms of production we could probably make 10 per week and they would all be identical or near as dammit due to the jig and the measurements that partner with the jig. Much higher quality than any factory produced exhaust systems. 

Basically for us to move forward now we need a bike, preferably a 6th gen. 

Also we would need someone willing to foot the bill for the first set and the jig production. If we had orders in place we could probably ignore the cost of the jig production. 

If we can arrange a bike to be here we can start work on this on the 26th November and have a jig by Friday the 30th so people can have them under the Christmas tree!

Nailed it, Louis - getting a 6th gen into your hands should be our primary objective. Of course, also getting a 5th gen to to your facility to compare fitment wouldn’t hurt. And it borders on sinister of you to get us thinking about headers under our Christmas trees...you really know how to speak to motorcyclists!

As far as raising the funds for the first header,

1 - if  this initial prototype is a single order for one exhaust, what will it cost, including jig production?

2 - how many orders with what amount deposited per order would you need to have in place to offset the cost of jig production and keep the cost to 900£ or less?

3 - what will be your method for testing/refining the initial prototype header to optimize performance and appearance?

Question 3 comes up  because a person or persons willing to cough up  the $ £ € ¢ ¥ ₩ or ₽ for a prototype header (several of us here on vfrd and others on vfrworld.com fit this description) wouldn’t want to bear the full brunt of development costs and jigs, then end up with a version 1.0 that doesn’t perform as well or perhaps look as nice as subsequent revisions.

@sfdownhill

1. It's really difficult to put an exact figure on it without having a bike here as we can only guess at whats involved. (£1000-1500)

2. 10+ would need to be in place as jig production can take up the majority of a day to get perfect.

3. We would let the buyer do the testing as we're strictly an exhaust fabrication shop and don't have the facilities.

The initial investor can have the end product in exchange for the original and we will sell the original to whomever would like it (someone who hasn't got the £900 budget). 

What do you think of that idea?

Just as a data point, I was very interested in the header development for the VFR's, and actually ponied up a few bucks. But

honestly I just can't see my way clear to being able to seriously consider a new header at the price point that it appears to be

headed towards. It would be nice, no doubt about it, but $1500-$2000 or more, plus shipping from the UK, is too rich for my

blood. I simply don't ride enough to make it realistic. You guys will just have to move on without me. 😞

2 hours ago, FJ12Ryder

Just as a data point, I was very interested in the header development for the VFR's, and actually ponied up a few bucks. But

honestly I just can't see my way clear to being able to seriously consider a new header at the price point that it appears to be

headed towards. It would be nice, no doubt about it, but $1500-$2000 or more, plus shipping from the UK, is too rich for my

blood. I simply don't ride enough to make it realistic. You guys will just have to move on without me. 😞

I may well be in the same boat, unfortunately...Notwithstanding that I'll be storing my bike for ~3 years from next June, I already have '99 headers on my '99 5th Gen, which are ceramic coated and backed by a less restrictive Hi-mount slip on. Not at the level these headers would be at, but a reasonable low-cost compromise nonetheless

For the few HP gains I might get, I'm not sure I could justify somewhere in the order of $AUD1750-2600 before shipping (which wouldn't be cheap either).

Will likely be a viable option for the UK contingent, and well-monied enthusiasts from elsewhere, but I'd struggle to justify it.

😞

Reference point, for better or worse...

Full titanium header with Ti can & midpipe for the RSV4 from Austin Racing is 2000GBP.

Performance isn't cheap, custom fab is even less cheap, and V4 headers are a lot more difficult to make than I4 systems. 

Sounds fair for full Ti.

@sfdownhill - epic post, well done!

To reiterate, despite how superlative the work Louie and his crew look to produce, I would like to wait and see what BW have to show for themselves, as that's looking a certainty given the recent noises they have been making. 

If nothing worthwhile spending money on comes of it, i.e poor quality, poor design, unsubstantiated claims, I will be, without any doubt, dropping my 5th Gen off with the good folks at CSK for some smoking gains.

Few more months gents, not long now

41 minutes ago, SEBSPEED

Reference point, for better or worse...

Full titanium header with Ti can & midpipe for the RSV4 from Austin Racing is 2000GBP.

Performance isn't cheap, custom fab is even less cheap, and V4 headers are a lot more difficult to make than I4 systems. 

I genuinely don't doubt it. But there is a point at which the $ outweigh the gains by enough to make you think twice.

As I said, if I were actually there (so didn't have to worry about shipping and possibly Tax added on top), I'd be looking at it a lot more seriously, assuming of course that there were measurable gains etc.

But where the total cost to me starts to look somewhere in the order of $3K, for a possible gain of around 5hp...? I'd likely have to draw a line under it.

That said, I hope it does get built, and people are able to take advantage of it.

The overall value proposition is pretty subjective and a very much individual thing...some will jump at it, others (depending on circumstance) perhaps not.

That right there was the actual tipping point, a $1000 for what may be 2-3 hp for the average Joe.  Me, I was on a mission, still sorta am. Then landed the unicorn to play with on a dyno with a pc3 and a few air filters.   But when it came right down to it,  VFR folks just wanted a better header at a value price,  didn't get the feed back that told me they care about if the HP was better. vs. those that wanted more ompf was minimal at best.  IIRC I had right around 10 folks that would like to get what I was after once it was proven, and of those 10, 6 where 6th gen owners, so that needed to be worked out.  Gabe was sure after he saw the Two Bros version and  thought he could get it do do a wee bit better.  but even at that at what price?  Now that I have what it does I'm pretty happy.  Cams and possible porting head work are next  😉 Yet the VFR demographics say I'm a rare breed, so?   Funny thing is $3k for a R1 or RSV4 header is no big deal to those folks,  so this tells me where the VFR really is as sad as it is to say.   My hat is off to you to stay the coarse if ...   That said, the basic tubing size is 36mm or 1.50 in. on the Two Bros and Erion version. (that's the same).   21" to 24" inch primary's.  Honda must of had something in the think tank here as the longest is # 1.  We where also going to looking into if that was a build and fit thing with the primarys and or something they did to get more mid range. Gabe thought making them even would be the better, but we didn't get that far to find out.      We where getting ready to also play with mid collector length vs. bends when all was coming down,   that and there's a small hurdle to jump over getting 36mm tubes in the head,  then there's making gaskets,  stock copper donut gaskets won't work here,  It's a very tight fit.  Best of. 😉

I'm with you in the camp of a small number of VFR owners who are/have chased additional HP in larger volumes.

Me with my 825 5th/6th Gen and Mohawk with his 5th Gen.

Both with cams, me with a big bore and head work as well.

My fix for the header situation was to buy an RC45 Shark header and mod it to fit and now with me not running side pod radiators the front splayed headers from the RC45 were a good choice. The only way to overcome the small gasket issue for me was to not run any.

Good luck with your mods and I hope it all works out as well as mine did.

Cheers

Phil

Just to note for everyone the price of £1000-1500 was for the initial development and the jig production. 

We aim to be able to produce them for approx £900 or less if we can. 

900 GBP

1150 USD

1620 AUD

Basically without making a set we don't know what time and materials are involved to give an accurate price so please do take everything at this stage as guess work and approximations. 

23 hours ago, BiKenG

I think this is something that needs to be settled. Honda pair the Lefts and the Rights as did TBR and Erion before that (same guy I think). Although the Tuono is Fronts and Rears paired, that may not be relevant to our requirement. The Aprilia has a different cylinder angle and I've no idea what the firing order, nor crank angle is. So what works best for Aprilia V4 power may not work for the VFR.

So I would tend towards thinking the original Honda merge style would be best. Everyone holds up the TBR as the system to copy and that's what they use so does it not make sense to stick with that?

Has this been discussed with BW? Any idea what their intentions are with regard to this aspect?

Thinking further on this merging issue, Honda merge the Lefts and Rights and then merges the resulting Left and Right (as does the TBR) on all bikes I've checked that use a 180° crank (VFR750 and VFR800), but on the bikes with 360° cranks (RC30, RC45, NC30, NC35) they merge Fronts and Rears and then Front and Rear.

I think this gives a clear indication of what is the best for the bike under discussion here, i.e. the VFR800. Which rather leaves a question over the Lextek system. Unless the picture is actually of a 400 (or RC30/45) system. Again, do we have any idea about BW's intentions regarding this?

As far as I'm concerned, the CSK system is way out of reach pricewise. It appears they do fantastic work, but even at the regular price indicated by Louis it's not appropriate for me and let's be honest, if you're that keen on spending money to get a fast V4, buy the Aprilia, or Ducati, or Norton. For my purposes the Lextek price makes more sense.

That's not to denigrate CSK in any way. Fabulous looking work and Louis has jumped in here and been very accommodating, but it won't be for me.

The biggest hurdle I see here is the division of the target audience over 3 or 4 continents or geopolitical areas:

1. USA/Canada

2. Australia.

3. UK

4. Europe

CSK are located in the UK so probably economically viable for groups 3 & 4 as above.

Numbers-wise the greater interest will surely reside in group 1.

Anyone in group 2 will pay through the nose due to tax and shipping, unless they locate a manufacturer in situ.

Group 1 might be able to offset costs and make the final price point attractive IF they could finally get together in a cave and groove with a pict all at once, split a deposit for the prototype, then have 10+ of the final product whacked in a crate and slung onto a slow boat through China with a declared value inferior to the real bickies forked out (in order to lower possible customs duties and insurance costs, only if, I repeat only IF, willing to sacrifice on eventual insurance payouts if something did go astray on the way over).

Sincerely though, a US manufacturer would surely be able to make some business out of this. Otherwise, the viability pales.

The aforementioned geographically limitating factors, general fluctuations in consensus, ebb and flow of VFR800 owners who just come and go, have me in a big comfy armchair with a megalarge tub of popcorn here... don't mean to be a party pooper.

I was one of those who put in some $ for the 'RVFR' header build way back when.  I've also been keeping an eye on the various VFR header build discussions, just hoping for something reasonable.  I think it's been fairly well established that even moderate HP gains for a 5th/6th gen VFR for moderate $ (subjective, I realize) just isn't happening (browse various projects on the site).  The 'tipping point' of $1000, as pointed out by RVFR, is where I drew the line.  A full system for up to $1000 for the VFR was reasonable to me, considering that just a decent 'can' costs from $300 up.  I was also an early adopter of the Rapidbike offering (very happy with it still), which was costly then and doesn't really make economic sense for VFR owners, just my opinion.  My intent at the time was to be able to add Nitrous (and wanted timing adjustments) for use as a 'passing gear', so occasional HP gain was the goal then.  I dropped that idea long ago.

Considering that my VFR is now worth maybe $4K, depending on source used to estimate, spending 25% of that on a header system is not easy to justify.  The VFR is still a very competent all-rounder as she sits.  All that being said, I will continue to follow the saga and see where things end up.  Who knows, I may still be riding when something actually materializes.

@Auspanglish - "get together in a cave and groove with a pict all at once" ... Pink Floyd reference? 😁.

ACE

8 hours ago, carlgustav

I was one of those who put in some $ for the 'RVFR' header build way back when.  I've also been keeping an eye on the various VFR header build discussions, just hoping for something reasonable.  I think it's been fairly well established that even moderate HP gains for a 5th/6th gen VFR for moderate $ (subjective, I realize) just isn't happening (browse various projects on the site).  The 'tipping point' of $1000, as pointed out by RVFR, is where I drew the line.  A full system for up to $1000 for the VFR was reasonable to me, considering that just a decent 'can' costs from $300 up.  I was also an early adopter of the Rapidbike offering (very happy with it still), which was costly then and doesn't really make economic sense for VFR owners, just my opinion.  My intent at the time was to be able to add Nitrous (and wanted timing adjustments) for use as a 'passing gear', so occasional HP gain was the goal then.  I dropped that idea long ago.

Considering that my VFR is now worth maybe $4K, depending on source used to estimate, spending 25% of that on a header system is not easy to justify.  The VFR is still a very competent all-rounder as she sits.  All that being said, I will continue to follow the saga and see where things end up.  Who knows, I may still be riding when something actually materializes.

@Auspanglish - "get together in a cave and groove with a pict all at once" ... Pink Floyd reference? 😁.

ACE

hell I should be getting my $1100 full system for my 86 750 soon, so spending this on my 6 gen is what it is for me, I would even buy one from gabe that way my RVFR money went to something other than a few dyno runs. either way I am on board with who ever produces something on par or better than two brothers

15 hours ago, LouisWhiteCSK

Just to note for everyone the price of £1000-1500 was for the initial development and the jig production. 

We aim to be able to produce them for approx £900 or less if we can. 

900 GBP

1150 USD

1620 AUD

Basically without making a set we don't know what time and materials are involved to give an accurate price so please do take everything at this stage as guess work and approximations. 

 Sounds about right, as towards the end Gabe was thinking closer to $1200,  I was saying no to that,  Also what played into that was how many?  What really shot me in the foot was Gabe making his move as he did.  I get what he was up too, just lousy timing,  I know his work, still keep in touch for those special needs,  he's a true artist and knows his trade.  None better that I know of and that was that. If I knew of someone else that could do what he does and was close by I'd be all over this.  That said there's a reality piece to do this,  so may be better off to let the big boys eat this up.  but did find out whats the what. VFR owners area fickled bunch,  I say that tongue in cheek as I've always thought the VFR as a sport bike that does very well at all things, where the majority  that's also 6th gen as the VFR as a smaller FJ that's got legs that likes to make a turn here and there.  I get it.   It ain't in a CBR market, so is it a really a good business model?  That's where I get the rub.  it should be.   Yet?     I'll be definitely still be watching this, as it's a hot button I want to push.

7 minutes ago, 3dcycle

hell I should be getting my $1100 full system for my 86 750 soon, so spending this on my 6 gen is what it is for me, I would even buy one from gabe that way my RVFR money went to something other than a few dyno runs. either way I am on board with who ever produces something on par or better than two brothers

 LOL Gabe and I talked about You and a couple others,  but it didn't fall on good ears to build just 3-4,  then in his eyes it's all about time  the  money when hes building  goodies for the R35 crowd,  which spends big bucks. so to him it's simple math. 

20 minutes ago, 3dcycle

hell I should be getting my $1100 full system for my 86 750 soon, so spending this on my 6 gen is what it is for me, I would even buy one from gabe that way my RVFR money went to something other than a few dyno runs. either way I am on board with who ever produces something on par or better than two brothers

Wait... so a bunch of people pooled $ for a header build that didn't happen, and didn't get their money back?  :blink:

50 minutes ago, 3dcycle

hell I should be getting my $1100 full system for my 86 750 soon, so spending this on my 6 gen is what it is for me, I would even buy one from gabe that way my RVFR money went to something other than a few dyno runs. either way I am on board with who ever produces something on par or better than two brothers

Hey 3D - are you actually having a full system built for your 86, or is that reference an effective [and much appreciated] gesture of humorous tongue-in-cheek sarcasm?

8 hours ago, sfdownhill

Hey 3D - are you actually having a full system built for your 86, or is that reference an effective [and much appreciated] gesture of humorous tongue-in-cheek sarcasm?

Just got a email confirmation this morning it’s in the mail.

ripplerock out of Canada is making it backed by hindle I think, or something like that. I asked them about the 6 gen but not really interested at the moment. But it was a proper system with dump runs and everything, had to pony up $350 18 month ago, then once they got the r&d done I paid the remainder 6 month ago.

https://www.ripplerockracers.com/

Most excellent - hope your ripplerock 

rips!

Just had a chat to the seller of that Lextek system on eBay UK. I asked if the picture was of the actual correct system as the Fronts and Rears merging is really for a 360° crank motor and not the VFR800 which is 180°. To cut a long story short, he knows nothing about it and just sells them. Apparently Lextek say VFR800s run ok with it and it didn't need changing (from what though).

Looks to me like they used an existing collector and bodged it to fit the VFR800 and as it does actually run (which it would of course) didn't look into it any further.

While I think spending loads of cash to try to extract every last hp from a VFR is probably a mug's game, actually saddling it with a fundamentally badly designed pipe system is equally daft. Everyone can make their own choice of course, but IMO the Lextek system is to be avoided at all costs.

4 hours ago, 3dcycle

Just got a email confirmation this morning it’s in the mail.

ripplerock out of Canada is making it backed by hindle I think, or something like that. I asked them about the 6 gen but not really interested at the moment. But it was a proper system with dump runs and everything, had to pony up $350 18 month ago, then once they got the r&d done I paid the remainder 6 month ago.

https://www.ripplerockracers.com/

I've ogled a few of the Hindle licensed cans that Ripple Rock has produced on CB1100F's - they are beautiful and sound great. The quality looks top notch and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one if I was in the market. I would be surprised if your new system was anything other than outstanding. Cheers!

Thanks for doing the legwork on Lextek, Ken.

It looks like the 750 header was done right from ripple rocks, it took so long to get it coming because the paired the fronts and rears and it ran poorly so the switched to right and lefts paire... or vise versa. But dyno tuned and jet recommendations. Will post pictures when I get it

FWIW  man those guys at Lextek must be getting a boat load of questions, as I too have been exchanging emails.  LOL  I'm not sure who over there is running the show, photos say one thing, videos another, then there's the who did what with what and they don't seem to know.  I may have to get one for the VFRonster as it is reasonable cost wise,  then I'd know what's what. but until, yea I'm guarded, yet very curious as there are a couple things worth seeing just how they went about it. time will tell.   In the mean time I'm still on the fence where to take what I know would work for what market there really is vs. a mission of.    

8 hours ago, BiKenG

Just had a chat to the seller of that Lextek system on eBay UK. I asked if the picture was of the actual correct system as the Fronts and Rears merging is really for a 360° crank motor and not the VFR800 which is 180°. To cut a long story short, he knows nothing about it and just sells them. Apparently Lextek say VFR800s run ok with it and it didn't need changing (from what though).

Looks to me like they used an existing collector and bodged it to fit the VFR800 and as it does actually run (which it would of course) didn't look into it any further.

While I think spending loads of cash to try to extract every last hp from a VFR is probably a mug's game, actually saddling it with a fundamentally badly designed pipe system is equally daft. Everyone can make their own choice of course, but IMO the Lextek system is to be avoided at all costs.

Great post! My thanks also for actually following up.

Seems like there are a few choices:

1) Pay middling prices for a poorly designed thing (this, of course, depends on what BW come up on their system, and it's cost)

2) Pay relatively big $ for a well-designed system (if enough people can be encouraged to stump up deposits), and noting a reasonably long lead time to get things organised.

3) Stick with what you have, noting that it isn't ideal, but that the alternatives will either deliver small gains (2), or potentially run worse (1).

On the Lextek thing; If I received answers like "I don't know, I just sell them", I, too, would walk away!

Curious - why does a 180 degree crank engine (4th/5th/6th gen) need lefts/rights and then fronts/backs merged header and 360 degree crank engine (rc30/rc45) need backs/fronts and then lefts/rights merged header?

I’m genuinely curious and don’t understand why it makes any difference unless you’re running richer rear cylinders and want the o2 sensors to read an average of the lean fronts/rich rears. 

Otherwise it it shouldn’t matter, no? Exhaust pulses are exhaust pulses. 

After all, VFROZ is running an rc45 header on his 5th gen (please correct me if this is wrong) and it pulls like a horny teenager. That’s a 360 crank header on a 180 crank motor. 

The Lextek exhaust looks well made but you can’t expect there’s any dyno time behind it. It’s made in China by skilled people at a great price. Worth taking a punt if you need a header cheap - I’d be very surprised if your bike runs poorly with it. You may even make some gains (looks lighter than stock 5th gen header and the bends look nice). 

The CSK header look amazing but really £1000/$1200 is crazy for a 20 year old bike with underpowered motor. Also, that is just fab work - no dyno tuning involved. 

In this respect its its exactly the same as the Lextek at 5x the price - a nice looking header with no dyno work. 

Someone needs to try the Lextek and see how it fares. 

6 hours ago, Stray

Curious - why does a 180 degree crank engine (4th/5th/6th gen) need lefts/rights and then fronts/backs merged header and 360 degree crank engine (rc30/rc45) need backs/fronts and then lefts/rights merged header?

I’m genuinely curious and don’t understand why it makes any difference unless you’re running richer rear cylinders and want the o2 sensors to read an average of the lean fronts/rich rears. 

Otherwise it it shouldn’t matter, no? Exhaust pulses are exhaust pulses. 

After all, VFROZ is running an rc45 header on his 5th gen (please correct me if this is wrong) and it pulls like a horny teenager. That’s a 360 crank header on a 180 crank motor. 

The Lextek exhaust looks well made but you can’t expect there’s any dyno time behind it. It’s made in China by skilled people at a great price. Worth taking a punt if you need a header cheap - I’d be very surprised if your bike runs poorly with it. You may even make some gains (looks lighter than stock 5th gen header and the bends look nice). 

The CSK header look amazing but really £1000/$1200 is crazy for a 20 year old bike with underpowered motor. Also, that is just fab work - no dyno tuning involved. 

In this respect its its exactly the same as the Lextek at 5x the price - a nice looking header with no dyno work. 

Someone needs to try the Lextek and see how it fares. 

The way exhaust pulses are combined can have a very significant effect on the power of the engine. For the 2000 FireBlade (CBR929RR) Honda used a (cast Titanium) combiner valve that joined 1+4 and 2+3, or 1+2 and 3+4 under different conditions specifically because to maximise power under all conditions required the different merge styles. It was their first exhaust 'power valve'.

So the way the pulses are combined can make a big difference and the pulses from a 180° and a 360° V4 occur in a different pattern which Honda (and other exhaust engineers) have found require the different merging for each of the crank designs in order to maximise power. Let's face it, the way they merge Lefts and Rights on the 800 is much more complicated than Fronts and Rears, with more pipework required etc. They wouldn't do that if they didn't think it necessary.

Using the wrong merge style isn't going to make the bike unrideable, or even be particularly noticeable to some riders, but on a dyno it would be very noticeable and with the main thrust of this topic being to source a good high quality, high power replacement to the TBR system, going the other way to something that makes less power than stock is probably not what people here want.

This exhaust tuning should not be dismissed. When Honda were racing their multi cylinder 4 strokes back in the 60s, current thinking was that a separate pipe for each cylinder allowed freest gas flow and gave the most power. It has since been discovered that combining the pulses in the right way means one cylinder's pulse can help scavenge the exhaust of the other(s). This is one of the main reasons for the huge increase in specific power output of modern race engines.

I cannot help but think that anyone who tries to tell you that a Fronts and Rears merged system works well on a 180° crank 90° V4 is trying to sell such a system that they made because it was the cheapest way to do it and I'd need to see dyno comparison charts to convince me otherwise.

A clue to this discussion is the fact that on 5G/6G they merge left and right. 

On the 8G they merge front and rear. 

The 8G lost top end power but gained low end torque. 

14 minutes ago, VFROZ

A clue to this discussion is the fact that on 5G/6G they merge left and right. 

On the 8G they merge front and rear. 

The 8G lost top end power but gained low end torque. 

Can the lost top end power be regained by increasing the diameter of the tubing?

NOT asking for a friend. 😉

I didn't see any post on the mods you made to the RC45 exhaust with your big bore VFR800.

After a bit of re thinking the Lextek system,  I might as well make a duel pipe left side exit system using  the mate the two rear, as that's what the rc45 does then add this is on a CA. 99 version, doubt I'll notice much power loss,  as the idea is simpler to create something for the VFRonster

VFROZ, 11/2/2018 at 9:25 PM

A clue to this discussion is the fact that on 5G/6G they merge left and right. 

On the 8G they merge front and rear. 

The 8G lost top end power but gained low end torque. 

Interesting! But is that down to merge design or tube diameter/cat? Or even the different front down pipes for front mounted rad? HighsideNZ, did your 5th gen lose top end and gain torque with the rc45 headers? Your answer to this question should tell us a lot. 

The Delkevic system for 5th, 6th and 8th gen is exactly the same except for different front downpipes on the 8th (for front mounted rad). 

If 8th gen guys find the Delkevic system gives them more top end and less lower end, then we have our answer! 

If not, then the power delivery differences must be down to other factors (pipe diameter, cat, sprocket gearing, airbox etc). 

Of course, I could be talking out of my behind. It’s been known to happen...

I hadn't noticed that the 8th Gen uses a Fronts and Rears merge style, but it does indicate how the different merging affects power and torque. Personally I'd be more interested in healthier mid range torque than top end power and if that's the effect of a F&R merge on a 180 crank, then it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. Although for those wanting the max. top end power, L&R merging remains the more desirable.

So many options :)

For mid range torque then, the Lextek may well be ok. Anyone want to try one and put it not the dyno so we can see the result?

The Delkevic system is often dismissed for its poor collector joint internals, but has anyone actually tested on a dyno? Ideally a bike with standard system, then swapped for Delkevic to get a good comparison on same dyno, same day etc?

It would be particularly interesting to see this for their 8th Gen system as they use the same L&R merging of earlier Gens rather than F&R as Honda use for that model.

Stray, ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 4:54 AM

Interesting! But is that down to merge design or tube diameter/cat? Or even the different front down pipes for front mounted rad? VFROZ, did your 5th gen lose top end and gain torque with the rc45 headers? Your answer to this question should tell us a lot. 

The Delkevic system for 5th, 6th and 8th gen is exactly the same except for different front downpipes on the 8th (for front mounted rad). 

If 8th gen guys find the Delkevic system gives them more top end and less lower end, then we have our answer! 

If not, then the power delivery differences must be down to other factors (pipe diameter, cat, sprocket gearing, airbox etc). 

Of course, I could be talking out of my behind. It’s been known to happen...

3

In this regard, the 8G exhaust actually mirrors the RC30/45 exhaust.  They also splayed out to the side a bit to allow for fitment of a front low mount rad.  I am adopting something similar for the track bike under construction.

1 hour ago, CornerCarver

In this regard, the 8G exhaust actually mirrors the RC30/45 exhaust.  They also splayed out to the side a bit to allow for fitment of a front low mount rad.  I am adopting something similar for the track bike under construction.

Sounds like a badass V4 trackbike!

LEXTEK UPDATE

Hello chaps, 

Since I posted the Lextek link Jeff at Simmi Performance has had rather a lot of interest - hurray for forum power! 

I’ve been in contact with Jeff from the start and spoke to him about setting up a group-buy to fill the void of the Tyga saga. 

We've been talking about the concerns/questions on here and Jeff has been really accommodating. So much so, he has agreed the following: 

1. A 15% discount for forum members who use my name (Spiros) in the group buy;

2. A 20% discount if we reach 25 orders for members who use my name (Spiros)

3. He has agreed to get the header dyno tested! He wants one of our members (someone in Barnard Castle where he’s based) to bring their 5th gen (non-cat standard ORM header, ideally) for before-and-after runs to compare!! The member needs to get their stock system dyno-tested, buy a header from him (he will post it to you), member fits the header and shows up for a second dyno run. At this point Jeff will REFUND THE PRICE OF THE HEADER!!! Can’t really argue with that, eh? Jeff has a friend with a private Dyno (some race outfit) who does his tuning for him and the runs will be free 

Wish I could take the offer but I’m too far and bike isn’t roadworthy. He who hesitates loses a free header. 

If you're close to Barnard Castle, have a standard 5th Gen non-cat header and fancy a FREE Lextek stainless system then please PM me for details. Only one offer available I’m afraid - first suitable pilot to apply gets the gig.  

Those living in the north of England may have come across Jeff before. He used to own and manufacture Simmi Performance exhausts (mostly cans, baffles and link pipes - not to be confused with SP Engineering) until he sold it. He now works for the new owner who is the second-largest Lextek distributor in the world.  

Back in the day Jeff was famous for his excellent craftsmanship (he’s been compared to Yoshimura quality in many periodicals and online if you search) and his outstanding customer service. Having spoken to him several times I can personally vouch for the second. 

Lextek are just finishing up their inhouse dyno system for testing exhausts going forward, but it won’t be ready until early next year. Jeff has relayed our interest in this header to them. He has also received some disobliging comments from people who doubt this header will perform - Lextek have taken this quite seriously and want the dyno test run ASAP to prove their product works. Hence the offer on here. 

Apparently one of their top guys commutes to work on a 5th gen...

In addition to the the above I am compiling a list of questions to send Jeff tomorrow. Please chime in with anything I may have omitted: 

a. How much does the header weigh

b. Pictures of the inside of the tubes to show quality of welds and cutting

c. What is the internal diameter of primaries/secondaries on downpipes

d. Will rear down pipes interfere with cam chain tensioner on 6th gen? Jeff says we can do some measuring and if the current setup touches the CCT, Lextek have agreed to modify the rear tubes (all models will then come with 6th gen rear tubes as these also fit 5th gen, no? Please correct me if this is wrong?). He said they would also look at providing modified front tubes for 8th gen. Not sure these would fit 5th/6th gen bikes though so please educate me

e. Is rear exit OEM size so we can run existing link pipe/can

f. What is cost of shipping to US/Europe/Australasia etc

Please post any missing questions so I can send them all in one go. 

Most important thing is to find that ideal 5th gen de-cat bike in Barnard Castle and a pilot willing to fit a Lextek system for the dyno test. In my opinion a bike with Power Commander/Rapid Bike tuning module would be ideal as we can get the most out of both setups this way. 

Please let let me know your thoughts ASAP so we can get this show (dyno) rolling! 

Link to Lextek header here again if you missed it last time: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F382587019138

Once the ball gets rolling I will run a poll of interested members on here so we can achieve the full discount. Please express your interest informally to give an indication of numbers. 

Best, 

Stray

Nice deal for someone

 I am still in for two systems provided they perform as well as or better than the TBR, and come in around the $1K mark. I would gladly provide a test bike, but as I am in SoCal shipping is likely a deal breaker on that given recent developments.

 Hoping this finally comes to fruition.

9 hours ago, Stray

If you're close to Barnard Castle, have a standard 5th Gen non-cat header and fancy a FREE Lextek stainless system then please PM me for details. Only one offer available I’m afraid - first suitable pilot to apply gets the gig. 

Someone (Stray) should post up in the UK Facebook group... surely someones up there.

Honda VFR Owners Club ™ UK

Well I am in the UK, but down south:-(

However, I have a good trailer and a suitable bike and the time :-)

Also, I'm very interested in this whole issue so would be prepared to truck the bike up there, especially if it got me a system to use. Then I just need to buy one more.

I've started to make contact with Jeff to take this further. I'll update you all when I know more.

Two more things.

My bike is a Gen 5.2, i.e. with cat. So ideally need to source a regular system for comparison. Anyone got any Gen 5.1 headers kicking around we could borrow?

If international shipping becomes an issue with this or anything else, I am prepared to accept items delivered here on behalf of members and ship them on to the final destination. I don't have any special deals with shipping companies and the original supplier may well be able to do it better and cheaper. But if for some reason they won't offer Int. shipping, I would help, obviously only at whatever cost the shipping company charges. You could even make your own arrangements and just have it collected from here.

Anyway, just offering in case it helps anyone get hold of the VFR parts they want.

I am still trying to establish how Delkevic can use the same collector for 5 and 6 Gen systems. Is the outlet angle and position the same on these bikes with just a different link from there to the low can of the 5th Gen or the high level stuff under the seat of the 6th Gen?

As I said, I'm needing the splayed front pipes of the 8th Gen with an outlet suitable for the 6th Gen's high level and although modification of the pipes to suit may be necessary, the less needed the better. So just trying to understand what might be required.

Anyone know for sure about the outlets?

Folks have been putting '98-'99 headers on 6th Gens for a while now to eliminate the cat/con, so I guess they fit the same.

Yep,  the outlet is in the same place,  it's what happens after that is obviously different.  If only this wasn't a international shipping  thing.   Good luck,  sounds like a good time. 

2 hours ago, BuzznerSuntrusts

Folks have been putting '98-'99 headers on 6th Gens for a while now to eliminate the cat/con, so I guess they fit the same.

Yep, I had no issues with the 98-99 fitted to my 6 Gen. However, the differences I found with my '01 and my '09 headers, is the front pipes cross over on these two but not on the 98-99. I had originally thought the cross over was from 2002+ but nope, 01 has the fronts crossed as well. I cannot speak for the 2k model but I would imagine it is the same as the 01 as that's when they added the cat and O2 sensors.

BiKenG, you’re first in line mate but PLEASE GET A CATLESS HEADER! We need to know how the Lextek stacks up against the best OEM setup with wider pipes and free flow. Comparisons to a catted header are not really helpful for a performance system. 

Do you have a fuel tuner (Power Commander or Rapid Bike sort of thing)? If not can you get your hands on one just for the test? 

Can someone borrow BiKenG a catless header to fit? And a fuel tuner too maybe?  

As for trailering your bike up north, it would be easier if Jeff ships you the header and you test your bike at a local dyno. Power runs are only about £20 - a fraction of the fuel and time it would cost you to drag the bike halfway across the country. What do you think? 

Sent you PM with my number so we can get this sorted.

As for crossover pipes on later VFRs, I can only think of one reason - to give them more length (oooh!). Perhaps Honda thought longer front pipes were optimal? 

14 hours ago, Vee-Ef-Ar

Someone (Stray) should post up in the UK Facebook group... surely someones up there.

Honda VFR Owners Club ™ UK

That’s a very good idea but I don’t have an account! Could BiKenG (or someone else) do it and link to this thread? Warn them only to read the last couple of pages though or they’ll de-friend you...

If we combine the intetested parties from FB, VFRW, Bikersoracle (never been on that one) and VFRD we should drum up rather a lot of buyers. 

Everything hangs on how well the Lextek performs on test which is why it is so critical to get the right bike with correct header and fuel tuner. Every VFR 5-8th gen owner worldwide will be interested in the outcome - has to be done right for everyone’s sake. 

I’ll discuss international shipping with Jeff tomorrow. Should be a good way to do this. Might ask Lextek to ship direct to a nominated member in each country or something. Will update when I know more. 

Best, 

Stray 

11 hours ago, Duc2V4

Yep, I had no issues with the 98-99 fitted to my 6 Gen. However, the differences I found with my '01 and my '09 headers, is the front pipes cross over on these two but not on the 98-99. I had originally thought the cross over was from 2002+ but nope, 01 has the fronts crossed as well. I cannot speak for the 2k model but I would imagine it is the same as the 01 as that's when they added the cat and O2 sensors.

11 hours ago, RVFR

Yep,  the outlet is in the same place,  it's what happens after that is obviously different.  If only this wasn't a international shipping  thing.   Good luck,  sounds like a good time. 

That's all good to know,. So I need a 5/6 Gen collector and rear downpipes, with 8th Gen fronts. Simples.

SURPRISE NEW DEVELOPMENT ON LEXTEK HEADER TEST: Jeff has gone and bought himself a 2000 5th gen!!!! 

Here is Bike he bought: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/277093886239865/

This means dyno testing will happen imminently - hurray! 

Jeff was also gracious enough to answer our questions in detail and with photos. 

System weight is 5.7kg with link pipe (no muffler). 

Internal weld quality is great - see those nice fillets...

[image: 5430E49A-0866-4326-9B50-964B0F5AD769.thumb.jpeg.4cbbbff49730c0f821bacef8ed1401c1.jpeg]

[image: CA3314E4-428E-4991-BEAA-875DC70F323A.thumb.jpeg.c4c86b4020cbb98d8a3ed9a667f7f872.jpeg]

Downpipes internal diameter starts at 32mm and goes up to 38mm. 

[image: 7B5FF8E4-7118-4981-8485-439FBA4DB20D.thumb.jpeg.e0149ed7b6eef6ba2dbda393ab8bae14.jpeg]

Exit tube is 50.8mm - same as standard I believe? 

[image: CD959E1C-104E-434D-AA08-7EC77CDD23F7.thumb.jpeg.50f0bf2f5065016cb6ca72b280f4bbca.jpeg]

He is happy to post overseas: box size is 58cm x 32cm x 15cm for calculating costs. He is happy to ship batches in one go to save costs but you will have to add another 15cm (height) for every extra system. So three systems would measure 58 x 32 x 45cm (3 times 15cm). Box weighs 5.7kg as stated above. 

Jeff will do a generous discount on first 25 orders. Thereafter the same deal in batches of 5. Please PM for price (Jeff doesn’t want to publish it here). 

If anyone wants a full system (with brackets, gaskets and muffler) please look on the Lextek website and let Jeff know what you’d like - he will apply this same discount to the entire system. 

He prefers payment by BACS (direct bank transfer) as margins will be very small on this offer and he doesn’t want to incur PayPal/CC fees. 

Jeff will also ask Lextek to make adaptations for 8th gen front tubes and (if necessary) 6th gen rear tubes once his initial stockholding is exhausted and they need to produce more. Currently there are 45 systems in stock. 

Jeff has very graciously agreed to dyno his new bike with both the OE system and Lextek header. He will use a Lextek muffler on both runs. Results should be in by end of next week. 

Big apology to BiKenG who will miss out on a free header. Sorry it turned out this way for you, mate. 

On the other hand it means we have a fellow VFR800 owner, who is an excellent exhaust builder, setting up a dyno test and cheap group-buy deal for us. He bought a bike just to service our needs - that’s pretty hard to beat, I think you’ll agree! 

Jeff may join our forum shortly as Kawaman (long time Kawasaki fan) and answer questions directly himself. Mods, please fast track his application if you see it!

Best, 

Stray

Unless it's a late-registered FiX (and I don't see a choke lever on there), he's bought himself a set of cat'd-headers, though...

Ciao,

JZH

JZH Unless it's a late-registered FiX (and I don't see a choke lever on there), he's bought himself a set of cat'd-headers, though...
 
Ciao,
 
JZH

27 minutes ago, WackenSS

32 minutes ago, JZH Unless it's a late-registered FiX (and I don't see a choke lever on there), he's bought himself a set of cat'd-headers, though...
 
Ciao,
 
JZH

Pretty sure I see HISS there, so he will probably find an O2 sensor here as well...

Yes I can see the HISS module as well. It's even advertised as a 2000, so that makes it a Gen 5.2 and the same as my bike. Oh well. I'm still available.😀

Pity this bloke isn't here in Oz...

I'd have been pretty keen to see how these headers would compare to the ones on my bike. Mine is a "stock" '99 (well, internally at least ;)) but has ceramic-coated headers ('99s, as you'd expect), and a PCII, existing through a custom semi-oval hi-mount slip-on.

I reckon that in terms of exhaust, that's about as good as a VFR gets, aside from rocking horse poo TBRs or rec-crafted RC45 gear...Would have been a pretty worthwhile comparo.

Buckleys chance of getting an exhaust place here interested in doing that kind of fab work for 20 year-old bikes, though. Or at least in anything like mass production.

So kudos to Jeff for putting his hand up. 

I'm actually quite keen to see how this system compares to the stock catless headers...

I know a couple places in sydney that could do it- not mass production, but one offs.

2 hours ago, keef

I know a couple places in sydney that could do it- not mass production, but one offs.

No doubt with attendant one-off production costs...

Yep, its why i have a delk and custom link pipe and can,  not a glorious, custom, hand made setup.

Huge respect to Jeff who has gone as far as buying a VFR just to dyno test the Lextek for us. Worth noting he is a lifelong Kawasaki fan so he really has made s leap!

Does anyone know what power/torque increases are with other header systems (same muffler)?

I’m thinking of Sandy Bike Spares/Black Widdow; Delkevic, Motad and Two Brothers. Also, does anyone have a comparison between 5th gen catless and catted headers? Is there a difference in power/torque? 

If memory serves the TBR needs a retune as primaries are quite a bit larger. Bike will run poorly without some fuel adjustments.

Am I talking cr@p here? Please chime in so we can put together a benchmark against which to compare the Lextek. 

Dyno results should be with us in us in a matter of DAYS - how cool is that! 

Once again, I am absolutely stunned by how accommodating Jeff has been with us: no other supplier has ever been as generous or as quick to act! 

PM me for prices if interested. 

Best, 

Stray 

Hello All, 

I know it’s been a while but Jeff has finally got the green light to drop the VFR off with his dyno/tuning guy on Monday. 

Hopefully we will have side-by-side comparisons by end of the week! 

Big thanks to Jeff for sticking with it. 

Stray

Not to take away momentum from the Lextek/Stray/Jeff header (which sounds great by the way) - but Black Widow just released the pics and pricing and some details on the performance header they've been working on:

FB Link - 

And the order page on their website with pricing and some details (shows as OOS at present): https://www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk/vfr800f-vfr-800-1998-2003-rc46-exhaust-collector-down-pipes-228-p.asp

I don't see where they list diatmeters for the primaries or secondaries, just that they are 304 stainless, 1.5mm wall tube. It is clear that the primaries step up in diameter and appear to use a very factory looking mount/flange. I will email them and ask for tubing specs. Thoughts?

Edit - After a bit more looking, these things look very similar to the Lextek headers to me

52 minutes ago, adkfinn

Not to take away momentum from the Lextek/Stray/Jeff header (which sounds great by the way) - but Black Widow just released the pics and pricing and some details on the performance header they've been working on:

...

Edit - After a bit more looking, these things look very similar to the Lextek headers to me

Yes, remarkably similar. Coincidence? 🤨

Interesting that they exclude the 6th and 8th Gen.

Hmm, they claim suitable for both Carburettor and Injected models. That's a bit worrying.

I'm still interested, and it seems we actually have a prototype this time.  If someone is compiling a list, go ahead and add me.

12 minutes ago, MadScientist

I'm still interested, and it seems we actually have a prototype this time.  If someone is compiling a list, go ahead and add me.

Don't hold your breath. 😉

Lol, I've lost count of how many of these header builds have fallen though...

Interesting - Black Widow is merging cylinders 1 with 3 [both rear cylinders] and 2 with 4 [both front cylinders], while TBR and Erion merge 1 with 2 and 3 with 4. And BW is only $377.01 at today's exchange rate. Still, I find it a bit sticky that after "18 months R&D" Black Widow states their exhaust system is for 1997-2003 VFRs - the last year of 4th gen through the second year of 6th gen. Nit picking, but with that level of attention to detail on their own website...

[image: image.png.09832d3a3d7842d81fa80a42e16c659a.png]

So, what do you all think? Lextek or BW? Merge differences aside, both look pretty good to me. Only nitpick is the BW doesn't have a center stand bump stop.

20 minutes ago, Airisom

So, what do you all think? Lextek or BW? Merge differences aside, both look pretty good to me. Only nitpick is the BW doesn't have a center stand bump stop.

 The BW center stand bump is on the link pipe, at least on mine.

Heck, at this price point, even with shipping, I may be very interested again. They sure look good, to me anyway.

2 minutes ago, adkfinn

 The BW center stand bump is on the link pipe, at least on mine.

Oh yeah...duh. I forgot it was on the mid-pipe...

2 hours ago, sfdownhill

Interesting - Black Widow is merging cylinders 1 with 3 [both rear cylinders] and 2 with 4 [both front cylinders], while TBR and Erion merge 1 with 2 and 3 with 4. And BW is only $377.01 at today's exchange rate. Still, I find it a bit sticky that after "18 months R&D" Black Widow states their exhaust system is for 1997-2003 VFRs - the last year of 4th gen through the second year of 6th gen. Nit picking, but with that level of attention to detail on their own website...

[image: image.png.09832d3a3d7842d81fa80a42e16c659a.png]

The year thing is because of the UK. 

5th gens were released late 1997 so there are 1997 plated bikes. It's appropriate given the region. 

To my untrained (jaundiced) eye, they look press-bent.

Probably won't make a huge difference (assuming everything else stacks up). just an observation...

I would not buy this system before receiving visual evidence of the fab work on the joint indicated here. At the price point I can't see these being fitted very well, and it wasn't that long ago that the Sandy Bike Spares headers were found to have a huge issue in this area.

It appears removal of the O2 sensor block offs would allow inspection of the workmanship in the joint. 

[image: 20181207_000920.jpg]

More pics of the same system

[image: vfr800f-vfr-800-1998-2003-rc46-exhaust-collector-down-pipes-228-p[ekm]320x213[ekm].jpg]

[image: vfr800f-vfr-800-1998-2003-rc46-exhaust-collector-down-pipes-[3]-228-p[ekm]320x213[ekm].jpg]

[image: vfr800f-vfr-800-1998-2003-rc46-exhaust-collector-down-pipes-228-p[ekm]320x213[ekm].jpg]

14 hours ago, adkfinn

Not to take away momentum from the Lextek/Stray/Jeff header (which sounds great by the way) - but Black Widow just released the pics and pricing and some details on the performance header they've been working on:

FB Link - 

And the order page on their website with pricing and some details (shows as OOS at present): https://www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk/vfr800f-vfr-800-1998-2003-rc46-exhaust-collector-down-pipes-228-p.asp

I don't see where they list diatmeters for the primaries or secondaries, just that they are 304 stainless, 1.5mm wall tube. It is clear that the primaries step up in diameter and appear to use a very factory looking mount/flange. I will email them and ask for tubing specs. Thoughts?

Edit - After a bit more looking, these things look very similar to the Lextek headers to me

With regards to what Seb said, see if they can get a clear picture through the o2 holes and at the flange so we can see what those welds are like

And where 1/3 and 2/4 join as well.

The original Sandy Spares was atrocious, with a tiny hole where the joints were that looked like was cut with an oxy torch.

So just like buses, you wait forever for one, then 2 turn up.

I've been studying the photos and there are minor differences, but the Lextek and the BW are uncannily similar. Interestingly, they both use the Fronts and Rears merge scheme, but is this simply for cost, or did they find that worked best on the dyno? In which case, what were they trying to achieve? We have established that Lefts and Rights each merging make best top end power whereas Fronts and Rears merging gives better mid range (according to the results of what Honda and others have used), so why have Lextek and BW ended up the same? Did they independently determine that better mid range was more desirable, or was some other factor (like cost) of greater significance?

Whatever, we need to see dyno results for both of these systems. Something that is noticeably lacking from both suppliers at present.

There are other questions though. As Seb said, we need to know the joints (merges in particular) are clean inside. From what we have seen the Lextek are good, but we need to confirm this for the BW. There is also the question of whether the Rears clear the V-Tec cam chain tensioner. I'm not sure if we confirmed that yet with the Lextek, but as yet we have no idea about the BW in this regard and do the flanges rotate to accommodate different head bolt orientation? Yes for Lextek, but also need to confirm that for BW. With both these 2 points confirmed, then to the best of my knowledge that would mean a system could be used on any 5th or 6th Gen or have I missed anything?

I think we also established that the same system could be used on the 8th Gen with simply different (splayed) front downpipes to clear the rads and maybe a different outlet? I'm not 100% on this but if we can confirm it, then that's something else to discuss with both Lextek and BW. It has to be in their best interests to have a system that's applicable to the widest range of models.

So a few questions to resolve and dyno results to be viewed and then looks like we'll have a choice of 2 systems. Could be worse. 😀

3 hours ago, VFROZ

And where 1/3 and 2/4 join as well.

The original Sandy Spares was atrocious, with a tiny hole where the joints were that looked like was cut with an oxy torch.

I've certainly mentioned this a few times, too, but to be fair to BW, their SBS days were a long time ago.  They're making the effort to produce something decent for an old bike, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt.  (But of course, verify!)

Ciao,

JZH

30 minutes ago, JZH

I've certainly mentioned this a few times, too, but to be fair to BW, their SBS days were a long time ago.  They're making the effort to produce something decent for an old bike, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt.  (But of course, verify!)

Ciao,

JZH

I'd be interested to know what their current VFR750 system is like. Is it still the original SBS product with the rough/restrictive internals or a better made product altogether.

1 hour ago, JZH

I've certainly mentioned this a few times, too, but to be fair to BW, their SBS days were a long time ago.  They're making the effort to produce something decent for an old bike, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt.  (But of course, verify!)

Ciao,

JZH

I agree with you, just pointing out that just because a system looks good, doesn’t mean it actually works. 

I deffinetly want a good system for cheap. 

Or an ok system for cheap, even though I love my bike, I don’t think it’s worth spending too much on an exhaust system for marginal gains when there are so many great new bikes out there. 

Briing on the dyno results. 

Spoke to Jeff today and he says VFR is next in the queue for dyno testing - we are almost there! 

He has sold a KTM 640 Adventure that needs sorting on the dyno ASAP and that’s next in the queue, so I can’t see this delaying much longer. 

One small request:

Please don’t approach Jeff about selling off eBay as it’ll get him in trouble with Lextek. Certainly don’t ask him questions about the group buy he is not supposed to be doing for us! If you’ve reached out to him on eBay recently don’t be offended if he doesn’t respond. 

He is doing us a favour (and a very generous discount) so let’s not get him in trouble with his corporate paymasters. 

Also please don’t pepper him with questions directly as he is feeling rather harassed of late. If you need any info PM me instead and I’ll get you an answer. 

Sorry if this comes across rude - not my intention at all. Just trying to shield Jeff from the many passionate VFR owners who’ve been waiting several years for a decent header and are understandably passionate about it arriving at last. 

Jeff’s doing his best (he doesn’t own the dyno business - it’s getting done as a favour by a friend) so let’s give him some room. 

The dyno results will be in very, very soon and we can get this group buy underway. 

In the meanwhile please let me know by PM if there’s anything you need. Please don’t publish prices etc openly - we don’t want Jeff getting in trouble. 

Best, 

Stray 

Latest update: 

Jeff’s tuner mate, Keith, just snapped three front head studs off the VFR! 

Keith will drill them out no problem but this will cause some delay. He’s going to cut the rest of the original system off. 

Situation is slightly more  complicated as either Keith or Jeff has just become a grandfather to a baby boy. Message is s bit confusing so I’m not sure who the new grandfather is: Jeff or Keith...

Needless to say the next couple of days will be chaotic and the lads will crack on with the job ASAP. 

Stray 

sfdownhill, 12/6/2018 at 9:57 AM

Interesting - Black Widow is merging cylinders 1 with 3 [both rear cylinders] and 2 with 4 [both front cylinders], while TBR and Erion merge 1 with 2 and 3 with 4. And BW is only $377.01 at today's exchange rate. Still, I find it a bit sticky that after "18 months R&D" Black Widow states their exhaust system is for 1997-2003 VFRs - the last year of 4th gen through the second year of 6th gen. Nit picking, but with that level of attention to detail on their own website...

More proof of the UK numbering. This is for pre-cat converter 5th gens, notice how it starts at 97

[image: No automatic alt text available.]

For those wanting Sandy Bike Spares/Black Widow dyno numbers, I'm going to paste an excerpt from an emailed response I had from them on this topic.

" We do not release Dyno results on any of our exhausts as these can vary due to the age, mileage and set up of the bike, we are happy to post owners results as these are specific to their bike and are unbiased. Please see our Facebook page for owners results from some of our other designs, they are excellent. "

Sorry, but that's crap.

For the record, I asked for dyno comparisons between a stock, "catless" header, and their design. They refuse to provide this info.

Also, not sure how relevant "seeing a Facebook page for owners results from some our other designs" actually helps one form an opinion as to the gains/design eficiency of this new header...

Maybe I'm missing something...?

Or not.

No. I won't be purchasing either of these until I see empirical, back-to-back dyno testing. Same bike, same dyno, "catless" headers vs these new ones (obviously with the same slip-on fitted to both headers).

Pretty simple, really. They either provide them, or they don't.

1 hour ago, thtanner

More proof of the UK numbering. This is for pre-cat converter 5th gens, notice how it starts at 97

...

Well I remember first seeing the VFR800 as a new model at the UK Motorcycle Show that is traditionally held in Nov/Dec and that must have been '97. They usually show new models slated for release and availability the following year, but it is possible some bikes made it to the UK and were sold actually in '97. But they would have been '98 model bikes so despite some early sales, the VFR800 did really start from '98 year model.

BTW, don't rely on Haynes for ANYTHING. 😁

BiKenG  
 
BTW, don't rely on Haynes for ANYTHING. [image: emoji16.png]

25 minutes ago, BiKenG

Well I remember first seeing the VFR800 as a new model at the UK Motorcycle Show that is traditionally held in Nov/Dec and that must have been '97. They usually show new models slated for release and availability the following year, but it is possible some bikes made it to the UK and were sold actually in '97. But they would have been '98 model bikes so despite some early sales, the VFR800 did really start from '98 year model.

BTW, don't rely on Haynes for ANYTHING. 😁

Pretty sure that people here (in Oz), have 1997-plated bikes. I'm almost certain that, like you, I saw a 1997-plated bike (a silver one) at the end of 1997.

11 hours ago, EX-XX

For those wanting Sandy Bike Spares/Black Widow dyno numbers, I'm going to paste an excerpt from an emailed response I had from them on this topic.

" We do not release Dyno results on any of our exhausts as these can vary due to the age, mileage and set up of the bike, we are happy to post owners results as these are specific to their bike and are unbiased. Please see our Facebook page for owners results from some of our other designs, they are excellent. "

Sorry, but that's crap.

For the record, I asked for dyno comparisons between a stock, "catless" header, and their design. They refuse to provide this info.

Also, not sure how relevant "seeing a Facebook page for owners results from some our other designs" actually helps one form an opinion as to the gains/design eficiency of this new header...

Maybe I'm missing something...?

Or not.

No. I won't be purchasing either of these until I see empirical, back-to-back dyno testing. Same bike, same dyno, "catless" headers vs these new ones (obviously with the same slip-on fitted to both headers).

Pretty simple, really. They either provide them, or they don't.

I cannot disagree with you but I think getting that info presents something of a problem. BW apparently refuse to provide any such thing which is disappointing and makes me think they're hiding something and although the Lextek is soon to be on the dyno, they do not have a catless header to compare.

Indeed, when I spoke to Jeff (Lextek supplier) he tried to convince me that a one-off dyno run of his system was all that was required as dyno results are corrected for atmospheric conditions etc so can be compared with any other results from other bikes on other dynos. But although correction factors are applied, as we know results can vary significantly and the only way to get a true understanding of the effect of changing an exhaust is same bike, same dyno on same day and only the exhaust swapped. Sadly, I don't think we're going to get that with either of these systems.

Having said that, an independent dyno run with just the exhaust change should give us some idea of how well they work or not and let's face it, we're not talking race track fine tuning here.

I have to say though that I am still suspicious of how similar the 2 systems are. Same bore size change, done in the same way, same sensor positioning etc. and then there's the merge scheme. Previous (performance) systems have used the same scheme as Honda, now 2 systems appear that take a different approach and while that may indeed work ok for the road, it is surprising that 2 manufacturers simultaneously (and supposedly independently) both decide to go against accepted (and Honda's) wisdom and opt for this alternative merge scheme. Coincidence? As someone once said, "there's no such thing as coincidence".

In any case, changing the merging from Honda;s original VFR800 scheme (Lefts and Rights) to the alternative Fronts and Rears is even more reason to want to see a dyno comparison of the new system against the Honda original. So we're back to that problem again.

Still, I suppose this is a better problem to have than "who can we get to make a system". 😀

20 hours ago, thtanner

More proof of the UK numbering. This is for pre-cat converter 5th gens, notice how it starts at 97

[image: No automatic alt text available.]

It's still wrong.  Motorcycle models change with "Model Years", as reflected in the bike's VIN, not calendar years, so the fact that some MY 1998 bikes were sold in late 1997 has nothing to do with the specification of the motorcyle, which is tied to the Model Year, and reflected in the bike's VIN.  But you can rest assured, that isn't the only error in the Haynes manual...

Ciao,

JZH

Seems like there's no absolutes. You can have 1998 year models, sold and licensed in 1997. Models are usually introduced in the fall, so there's no reason

for that not to happen. So you can have a 1997 VFR800 that is a model year 1998, just like you can have a 2010 VFR800 that is a model year 2008. It's all a

question of semantics. Licensing is much different than actual model years.

1 hour ago, JZH

It's still wrong.  Motorcycle models change with "Model Years", as reflected in the bike's VIN, not calendar years, so the fact that some MY 1998 bikes were sold in late 1997 has nothing to do with the specification of the motorcyle, which is tied to the Model Year, and reflected in the bike's VIN.  But you can rest assured, that isn't the only error in the Haynes manual...

Ciao,

JZH

It's not wrong, it's just the way it was sometimes labeled in the UK and some other countries. Yes, I lived in the UK too I'm not just some dumb American, and it is NOT the first instance of this I've seen. The real model year is ofc 1998-2001 but bikes were sold late 1997, to early 2002. Some companies chose to base the dates on the first/last year reg, not the "model" years.

To say that the company is stupid or didn't do their research because they chose to use the year scheme many others have in the region is a bit disingenuous. 

It's been like that since.. well 1997 and nobody complained then 😉

Stray, 12/7/2018 at 6:43 AM

Latest update: 

Jeff’s tuner mate, Keith, just snapped three front head studs off the VFR! 

Keith will drill them out no problem but this will cause some delay. He’s going to cut the rest of the original system off. 

Situation is slightly more  complicated as either Keith or Jeff has just become a grandfather to a baby boy. Message is s bit confusing so I’m not sure who the new grandfather is: Jeff or Keith...

Needless to say the next couple of days will be chaotic and the lads will crack on with the job ASAP. 

Stray 

Hopefully Keith did the baseline dyno run with the stock, albeit catted exhaust before attacking the exhaust fixing stud nuts to remove said stock exhaust.

4 hours ago, sfdownhill

Hopefully Keith did the baseline dyno run with the stock, albeit catted exhaust before attacking the exhaust fixing stud nuts to remove said stock exhaust.

I really hope he did. Jeff didn’t give me too many details on Friday. Was more focused on the new grandchild, understandably. 

Let’s see what next week brings. 

Sorry i can’t offer any more details guys. I know this is nerve wracking. 

Stray

16 hours ago, thtanner

It's not wrong, it's just the way it was sometimes labeled in the UK and some other countries. Yes, I lived in the UK too I'm not just some dumb American, and it is NOT the first instance of this I've seen. The real model year is ofc 1998-2001 but bikes were sold late 1997, to early 2002. Some companies chose to base the dates on the first/last year reg, not the "model" years.

...

Well I don't think this has anything to do with Honda. They manufacture a certain design and spec of bike and it gets labelled as an 'J' or 'L' etc which is a simple code to denote its 'Model year'. When it actually gets sold and registered is largely nothing to do with them. It may creep in before the end of the previous year (during which it was actually introduced) or it may sit in a dealer's showroom for years so the date of first registration is not necessarily equivalent to the 'Model Year'. This is something a lot of people seem to find hard to understand, or use to deliberately misrepresent the age of a bike - even dealers sadly. But in reality it's not that complicated.

The '98 model year was 'W' which to the best of my knowledge was applied to the very first VFR800. As far as I know there was NO VFR800FI-V. Ergo, the first VFR800 was a '98, even if sold at the back end of '97.

I have to take issue with the statement that it was labelled as a '97 in the UK. So who labelled it? The press? Maybe and some dealers possibly and certainly Haynes, but the reality is it was never labelled by Honda as a '97 - anywhere. Not at the time, although younger employees with less concern for accuracy (as is the trend these days) may have subsequently implied otherwise.

Back when I worked at Honda UK these actual age questions did not seem so important as it was all a lot newer and fresher in the mind. Now we're talking many, many years ago and memories fade and get distorted over time. But unless anyone can provide any evidence of there being a VFR800FI-V, we can all settle on the first VFR800 being '98-'99, then with added HISS (not USA) and Cat. '00-'01 and then V-Tec from '02. Please, don't get sidetracked by press and/or Haynes into believing anything different.

There is one glaring anomaly to the above. The CBX1000. Back when it was introduced, Honda didn't have such a structured annual model naming system. 1980 was to introduce 'A' as the model year and although the CBX was actually introduced in '78, it carried the 'Z' designation which was used as a 'catch-up' to bring all models into line. So continuing with the 'Z' through '79 means 'Z' was actually used for 2 years. Once everything was in sync, they changed to 'A' for '80, 'B' in '81 etc and have carried that on until today, although running out of letters caused a swap to numeric code '1' in '01 which continues to this day.

It's a bit like part numbers. Honda don't just throw out random numbers for all parts. There is a carefully structured system for naming of parts - even more important now than when first introduced with the number of parts growing year by year. Model Codes also follow a structured scheme. The RC46 is the 46th model of that type (road sports) in that capacity range (I forget the limits, something like 600 - 900cc). It is not some randomly cool code that the use of RC30 seemed to suggest. Likewise the model years. There is a system to all this that Honda do. They have to have a system or soon they wouldn't know what they were doing. Well they know in theory anyway. 😀

how are you people arguing that these headers are any different from one another?

they both have the same seams and expanded joints in the same places,  when no other header before does that.

they both had the same idea at the same time and posted their "different" headers months apart from one another eh?  Hmm.

They both have concurrent/faulty dual o2 sensor placement in the same spot in the merges, .... nah.

same manufacturer.  they're just resellers for this.

Does the Lextek also have the indention on the rear downpipe?

I ordered my RC36-2 (VFR750F) in August? 1997 while on assignment in Finland. My dutch dealer imported it from France since no red ones were available anymore.

Then the RC46 VFR800fi  got introduced and it took me all but 15 seconds to realise I didnot want to cancel my order...  :tongue:

Registered my redslut on 9 september 1997.

So I assume it was possible to buy and register a '98 in '97  :tongue:

For me, the RC36-2 is 1994-1997. The RC46-1 is 1998-2001

RIP redslut...

[image: IMAG1166_1-640x598_1.jpg.4072e6fc277632195b88009a3119cadf.jpg]

Airisom,  you think that makes it inherantly different?
There is so much more like with these two headers than different.

no header has had these things since ever, and your refute is a dent?
 

2 hours ago, Voided76

how are you people arguing that these headers are any different from one another?

they both have the same seams and expanded joints in the same places,  when no other header before does that.

they both had the same idea at the same time and posted their "different" headers months apart from one another eh?  Hmm.

They both have concurrent/faulty dual o2 sensor placement in the same spot in the merges, .... nah.

...

Yup. That's what I said. And both at roughly the same price. It is kinda suspicious.

31 minutes ago, Dutchy

I ordered my RC36-2 (VFR750F) in August? 1997 while on assignment in Finland. My dutch dealer imported it from France since no red ones were available anymore.

Then the RC46 VFR800fi  got introduced and it took me all but 15 seconds to realise I didnot want to cancel my order...  :tongue:

Registered my redslut on 9 september 1997.

So I assume it was possible to buy and register a '98 in '97  :tongue:

For me, the RC36-2 is 1994-1997. The RC46-1 is 1998-2001

Yes, as I think we can agree, the first VFR800 was a '98 year model, but first ones were sold at the end of '97. Still a '98 bike though. It's the Model Year that crucially defines the bike, not when it was first sold and/or registered.

1 hour ago, Voided76

Airisom,  you think that makes it inherantly different?
There is so much more like with these two headers than different.

no header has had these things since ever, and your refute is a dent?
 

No, I'm just asking a question. Calm down. 

It must be winter.

1 hour ago, MBrane

It must be winter.

My 96 "identifies" as a 2015... I don't dare ask its gender... we just leave it at "sexy b!tch"... lol

Airisom: Don't misunderstand my position,  I'm not trying to heckle or flame you,  I'm questioning your thought process in case you had examined both headers sets of sales pictures as I have.  if I seem hot under the collar it's because we've once again been purposefully lied to.

black widow didn't develop shit.  both headers obviously were designed in the same house.  Any differences are exceptionally minor when you consider the way they are welded together,  the steps of the primary tubes lining up as if the same thought process brought them about,  and the same two o2 bungs in the same (wrong) spot on the main collector all point to the same house slapping them together.

And while it's not a bad design all in all,  it's disingenuous as fuck telling VFR owners for an entire year that you're designing a racing header and get handed something that is 98 spec primaries and nothing more.

Even after we gave them the data.  even after they'd seen the dyno curves laid out.  

it's disingenuous pretending you have a pulse on what a bike needs and then deliver a stock ass header.  

I haven't asked BW about their ID's but I'm 99% certain I don't have to.

The good news is:  
That's two EU and one USA sources
Might be able to find it on aliexpress and haggle a bigger bore setup from them directly.  

resellers and pretenders never do anything about their products.

Nah, it's all good. My thought process was simple: Does the Lextek also have the indention on the rear downpipe? Nothing more than that. Two generally equal systems should perform generally equally to each other. Bashing headers to fit V8s in some cars doesn't do anything to horsepower, so one small cave-in on one pipe shouldn't do much as well.

Looking at the pics, the primary indicator the BW is a BW is the indention, but since the pipes are turned around the other side in the Lextek pictures, I was wondering if there was a chance the Lextek had it as  well. Regardless, they're of the same design, so performance is going to be within margin of craftsmanship anyway. 

The Lextek is cheaper, comes with a mid-pipe, soon to come dyno results, and a seller is willing to hook us up on a group buy, so I'm just waiting to see how this unfolds.

18 hours ago, Voided76

Airisom: Don't misunderstand my position,  I'm not trying to heckle or flame you,  I'm questioning your thought process in case you had examined both headers sets of sales pictures as I have.  if I seem hot under the collar it's because we've once again been purposefully lied to.

black widow didn't develop shit.  both headers obviously were designed in the same house.  Any differences are exceptionally minor when you consider the way they are welded together,  the steps of the primary tubes lining up as if the same thought process brought them about,  and the same two o2 bungs in the same (wrong) spot on the main collector all point to the same house slapping them together.

And while it's not a bad design all in all,  it's disingenuous as fuck telling VFR owners for an entire year that you're designing a racing header and get handed something that is 98 spec primaries and nothing more.

Even after we gave them the data.  even after they'd seen the dyno curves laid out.  

it's disingenuous pretending you have a pulse on what a bike needs and then deliver a stock ass header.  

I haven't asked BW about their ID's but I'm 99% certain I don't have to.

Probably why they're coy about releasing dyno data.

In the email I posted an excerpt from, the BW salesperson was waxing lyrical about "how much better their new system would be than my old '99 one."

Really?

Prove it (with empirical evidence) and I'll consider a purchase. Genuinely not fussed one way or the other. My ceramic-coated headers will probably last the life of the bike, given that I live in an environment that doesn't experience heavy snowfalls/salt on the roads etc.

So, for me to consider changing them out with something else...well, I'd need to be convinced that the "something else" was demonstrably better, wouldn't I?

So...who on the forum is going to be first to grab a set of these things and "back-to-back" dyno test them against a control set of '99 headers?

10 hours ago, EX-XX

Probably why they're coy about releasing dyno data.

In the email I posted an excerpt from, the BW salesperson was waxing lyrical about "how much better their new system would be than my old '99 one."

Really?

Prove it (with empirical evidence) and I'll consider a purchase. Genuinely not fussed one way or the other. My ceramic-coated headers will probably last the life of the bike, given that I live in an environment that doesn't experience heavy snowfalls/salt on the roads etc.

So, for me to consider changing them out with something else...well, I'd need to be convinced that the "something else" was demonstrably better, wouldn't I?

So...who on the forum is going to be first to grab a set of these things and "back-to-back" dyno test them against a control set of '99 headers?

With the greatest respect gentlemen, have you considered that our public forum might be frequented by Lextek (and BW and others) and that this general “venting of spleen” is not really endearing us to them? 

For a start we need to put a few very important things in perspective:

1. We ride 20 year old bikes with rotting headers for which there is no real market as a parts supplier

2. The Lextek is a Chinese made header cheaper than three full tanks of petrol. It’s not a BSB race system and NEVER CLAIMED TO BE! 

3. Jeff from Lextek has gone considerably out of his way to provide info and test a system for us - as a courtesy. He even bought a VFR motorcycle specifically for the purpose. That’s nothing short of heroic in my book! 

Now as Jeff stares in despair at the three snapped exhaust studs on his bike I wonder how motivated to help us he feels with all this negative clamour in his ears. I’d have downed tools a long time ago. Hopefully Jeff is a more patient man than me. 

This is not a race header designed to win the TT. It’s a nice mass-produced item designed to serve our ageing fleet of bikes. Despite this it boasts a lot of advantages:

a. Stainless steel construction

b. 5th gen diameters

c. Neat welds (see pics)

d. Catless

e. Probably lighter than stock

f. IT IS REALLY CHEAP!!!

Did I mention that it’s CHEAP? Oh, and steeply discounted for us too. That, just in case anyone missed it, makes it REALLY CHEAP! 

In light of all this can we please stop beating on those who have chosen to help us, while they’re helping us? Lextek (and BW) have endured a thrashing for even daring to offer us a system. No one else is offering us any alternatives. 

Let’s manage our expectations, show a modicum of courtesy and pray Jeff follows through with his project for us. 

Stray

Well said.

Right on Stray. Thanks for perspective, and all the time you are putting into this.

Please pass along to Jeff that his extra effort is also appreciated. We’ve all experienced the failure of a critical bolt or part in the midst of a mechanical project - it’s never any fun. We’re rooting for him.

Good luck Stray, people on the internet are complete jerks. Fully agree with what you have said, but at the same time disappointed that multiple attempts to get a descent header for the VFR, due to companies total lack of interest & modern emissions rules/legal ramifications. 

Most of of the people that cause the trouble by annoying the vendor will probably never buy a system, which makes it all the worse !

Good luck with it & I hope you get reasonable numbers on the Dyno.

11 hours ago, Stray

With the greatest respect gentlemen, have you considered that our public forum might be frequented by Lextek (and BW and others) and that this general “venting of spleen” is not really endearing us to them? 

For a start we need to put a few very important things in perspective:

1. We ride 20 year old bikes with rotting headers for which there is no real market as a parts supplier

2. The Lextek is a Chinese made header cheaper than three full tanks of petrol. It’s not a BSB race system and NEVER CLAIMED TO BE! 

3. Jeff from Lextek has gone considerably out of his way to provide info and test a system for us - as a courtesy. He even bought a VFR motorcycle specifically for the purpose. That’s nothing short of heroic in my book! 

Now as Jeff stares in despair at the three snapped exhaust studs on his bike I wonder how motivated to help us he feels with all this negative clamour in his ears. I’d have downed tools a long time ago. Hopefully Jeff is a more patient man than me. 

This is not a race header designed to win the TT. It’s a nice mass-produced item designed to serve our ageing fleet of bikes. Despite this it boasts a lot of advantages:

a. Stainless steel construction

b. 5th gen diameters

c. Neat welds (see pics)

d. Catless

e. Probably lighter than stock

f. IT IS REALLY CHEAP!!!

Did I mention that it’s CHEAP? Oh, and steeply discounted for us too. That, just in case anyone missed it, makes it REALLY CHEAP! 

In light of all this can we please stop beating on those who have chosen to help us, while they’re helping us? Lextek (and BW) have endured a thrashing for even daring to offer us a system. No one else is offering us any alternatives. 

Let’s manage our expectations, show a modicum of courtesy and pray Jeff follows through with his project for us. 

Stray

Thanks for your input.

No-one (least of all me) suggested that it should be a "race header".

What I (and others - not quoted, BTW) was after was some kind of empirical data on the headers when actually fitted to a motorcycle.

My comments weren't directed at Lextek. They were directed at BW which, as most know (and has been photo-documented in this forum in other threads), has had issues in terms of construction quality (particularly around merge welds etc.) The current (seemingly collaboratively designed) versions "appear" to have less than optimally placed O2 bungs, which may or may not have 00/01 bikes throwing codes/requiring spacers/fitting of O2 eliminators etc.

So, I'd have thought it natural to want to see how the system tests on a bike, rather than simply buying it "sight unseen", wearing freight and exchange costs, only to (potentially) wind up with a system that's no better (and potentially worse) than the one I currently have. I'm not suggesting it would be. What I am suggesting is that I don't know one way or the other.

 I

I also take umbrage at the comment about "people whinging about the product probably wouldn't buy it anyway". What would you know about what I would/wouldn't buy?

All because I (and others) wanted to see a bit more rigour around the product's sale than "here it is, buy it".

Good on them for (co)designing it. No issue there. If it turns out to be a decent system, I'll be more than happy to put my hand up for a set, noting that people here in Oz will wear (significantly) higher freight, and exchange costs, than will the UK and US-based people. (And likely pay a GST on top of all that). It won't be as "dirt cheap" as you suggest, by the time its landed here.

But in BW's case anyway, I'd suggest that they have some goodwill to make up from the "SandyBike Spares" days...and some empirical testing on a bike would go some way to restoring that.

I have to say I can see both sides of this. On the one hand, we really don't want to piss off suppliers who are being helpful and offering a good deal, but it is also true that the customer deserves to know what they're buying and so far, we don't.

Yes, Jeff is putting his on a dyno (he didn't have to buy a bike as he knew I was prepared to use mine so that's down to him, no actual brownie points gained) and we are (probably all) very keen to know the outcome of that. But so far we still have nothing, so I think it's not unrealistic of those waiting for this information to get impatient.

However, when it comes to BW it's a slightly different story. They have a chequered history and although that may be behind them, we have long been assured they are working on the BEST system ever for the VFR yet it now very much looks like they are simply buying in and re-selling someone else's product. Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that, just that it's not what they've been telling us for the last few months and now to cap it all, they seem reluctant to release any actual dyno results. Instead appearing to try and deflect such requests with very dubious claims that it's impossible to produce truly comparative data and we should simply look at figures from their different systems on different bikes as that should give us an idea. Sorry, this is disingenuous bunkum.

I have no previous experience with BW, but right now I feel we've been somewhat led up the garden path. They can easily correct this situation by coming clean about the source of their product and doing some real tests and/or discussing it with us on here. No, we're not looking for race track performance, but right now we have NO idea whatsoever how this system even runs and I think (potential) customers deserve to know more than what we've been told so far which is quite frankly, not a lot.

This is not having a dig at potential suppliers, just asking very reasonable questions, prior to stumping up any actual hard cash. How can they expect anything less?

So now that everyone has had the opportunity to air their views, we can let it go. And wait to see what comes our way.

Perfect.

I've been following along here just out of interest. My bike came with a Delkevic header. My butt dyno can't tell you a thing about it because this 07 is just so different than my 03. One day, I might need to replace it.  Anyway, I decided to follow up on some things and came across this....

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/VFR800-factory-direct-selling-motorcycle-stainless_60684155091.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.450.494e5b5a5Dbphs

From the pics, they appear to have a very capable factory. The page says they will work with your drawing or specs. Maybe someone has already done the leg work and is selling a system. I'm not passing judgement, just thought it might be of interest.

4 minutes ago, Sweeper

I've been following along here just out of interest. My bike came with a Delkevic header. My butt dyno can't tell you a thing about it because this 07 is just so different than my 03. One day, I might need to replace it.  Anyway, I decided to follow up on some things and came across this....

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/VFR800-factory-direct-selling-motorcycle-stainless_60684155091.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.450.494e5b5a5Dbphs

From the pics, they appear to have a very capable factory. The page says they will work with your drawing or specs. Maybe someone has already done the leg work and is selling a system. I'm not passing judgement, just thought it might be of interest.

LOL, doesn't that look familiar...Anyway, if I ever meet anyone with an RC49 (VFR800P), I will be sure to let them know that Gzying Hui Muffler in Guangdong has got 'em covered!

Ciao,

JZH

12 hours ago, JZH

LOL, doesn't that look familiar...

Ciao,

JZH

That's what I thought initially, but in the picture the front pipes cross over, whereas the BW (and I think the Lextek but cannot now find the pictures) do not cross at the front. That's not to say though that these are not the actual manufacturers of said systems.

22 hours ago, JZH

LOL, doesn't that look familiar...Anyway, if I ever meet anyone with an RC49 (VFR800P), I will be sure to let them know that Gzying Hui Muffler in Guangdong has got 'em covered!

Ciao,

JZH

Coincidentally, I saw an RC49 for sale on the Japanese auctions last night. A cool $AUD24K (~$USD17500)...

Wikipedia’s entry on Honda RC motorcycles doesn’t list an RC49...what, pray tell, is a VFR800P/RC49?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Police_motorcycles_by_brand#/media/File:Japanese_HONDA_VFR800P_police_motorcycle.jpg

It's the Japanese Police version of the 5th gen VFR.

Has raised bars, bags, and fittings for crash bars, etc, but is fundamentally the same as the VFR800

Super fun youtubes of the VFR800P in action, too. Like this:

I thought it had non-linked brakes? It always looked to me like F4i forks and brakes.

Yeah, I think you are right, though I only know that by reading here so...

Cool - thanks Moose.

2 hours ago, TheLimey

I thought it had non-linked brakes? It always looked to me like F4i forks and brakes.

 You could be right about the non-linked brakes, I'll have to double check (i.e. go through pictures of the parts until I find some of the brakes etc. 😉 )

They were - apparently - produced from 2001-2008, and have a number of differences to the standard 5th Gen.

"Ventilated" rear rotor (presumably for low-speed work with lots of rear braking), ABS, completely different instrument panel (all digital), and quite a few differences in plastics etc. given the intended (Police) use, plus some other stuff I've forgotten.

[image: 38430034_10209784795137052_8289663283623]There is a VFR800 owners forum on Facebook and a member who bought one at an auction. He was restoring it, I'll post a pic...

*cracks knuckles*

Here.  we.  go.

https://www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk/vfr800f-vfr-800-1998-2003-rc46-exhaust-collector-down-pipes-228-p.asp

"An all new design concept from the Black Widow Performance Department."

Meanwhile after a BW rep send me the specs as measured......

that's a 29mm ID primary at the port boys.

[image: s-l1600 (1).jpg]

while I believe that it does neck up to 36mm,  is 29mm a match for the cyl head or is someone smoking crack at BW causing exhaust gas to rapidly slow down after it exits the cyl head?

3 hours ago, Voided76

while I believe that it does neck up to 36mm,  is 29mm a match for the cyl head or is someone smoking crack at BW causing exhaust gas to rapidly slow down after it exits the cyl head?

:blink:  it makes no sense, why wouldn't they just use the same 38od for the primary, we know 38 fits at the cylinder head. 

But I guess we'll just have to wait to see what those dyno figures say

Voided76, 12/17/2018 at 1:29 PM

while I believe that it does neck up to 36mm,  is 29mm a match for the cyl head or is someone smoking crack at BW causing exhaust gas to rapidly slow down after it exits the cyl head?

22 hours ago, boOZZIE

:blink:  it makes no sense, why wouldn't they just use the same 38od for the primary, we know 38 fits at the cylinder head. 

But I guess we'll just have to wait to see what those dyno figures say

i.d. of the 5th gen exhaust port where it exits the head is 32.45mm

id of the sleeve on the outside of the 5th gen head is 41.10mm [Measured closest to the exhaust port]

This id represents any header primary's maximum possible od where it meets the 5th gen head.

This sleeve is part of the head casting. It is narrowest at the exhaust port and widens to maximum id at the end of the sleeve, away from the port.

id of the same sleeve at its widest point is 42.43mm [Measured furthest from exhaust port]

It's a guess about the widening of the Lextek/BW primaries a few inches away from the head, but in theory, the velocity of a gas moving in a tube decreases when it encounters an increase in tubing diameter. It appears the Lextek/BW header keeps the primary diameter smaller from the port several inches down the primary, probably to keep gas velocity higher before widening the primary diameter. Higher velocity through and past the exhaust port increases scavenging of exhaust gases from the cylinder.

Impatiently waits for someone to post dyno results from any header what-so-ever. So many headers, so little data.

1 hour ago, sfdownhill

i.d. of the 5th gen exhaust port where it exits the head is 32.45mm

id of the sleeve on the outside of the 5th gen head is 41.10mm [Measured closest to the exhaust port]

This id represents any header primary's maximum possible od where it meets the 5th gen head.

This sleeve is part of the head casting. It is narrowest at the exhaust port and widens to maximum id at the end of the sleeve, away from the port.

id of the same sleeve at its widest point is 42.43mm [Measured furthest from exhaust port]

It's a guess about the widening of the Lextek/BW primaries a few inches away from the head, but in theory, the velocity of a gas moving in a tube decreases when it encounters an increase in tubing diameter. It appears the Lextek/BW header keeps the primary diameter smaller from the port several inches down the primary, probably to keep gas velocity higher before widening the primary diameter. Higher velocity through and past the exhaust port increases scavenging of exhaust gases from the cylinder.

So that's a step at the exhaust port 32.45 down to 29.3 to the exhausts?

Stray, 11/9/2018 at 5:51 AM

[image: 5430E49A-0866-4326-9B50-964B0F5AD769.thumb.jpeg.4cbbbff49730c0f821bacef8ed1401c1.jpeg]

[image: CA3314E4-428E-4991-BEAA-875DC70F323A.thumb.jpeg.c4c86b4020cbb98d8a3ed9a667f7f872.jpeg]

Downpipes internal diameter starts at 32mm and goes up to 38mm. 

[image: 7B5FF8E4-7118-4981-8485-439FBA4DB20D.thumb.jpeg.e0149ed7b6eef6ba2dbda393ab8bae14.jpeg]

Exit tube is 50.8mm - same as standard I believe? 

[image: CD959E1C-104E-434D-AA08-7EC77CDD23F7.thumb.jpeg.50f0bf2f5065016cb6ca72b280f4bbca.jpeg]

In the post above, with photos forwarded to Stray from Jeff of Simmi Performance - distributors of Lextek - it appears someone is holding an actual header in an actual hand upon an actual desk. It's a stretch, but because two different measuring tapes can be glimpsed in these photos, my subjective response is to give Jeff the benefit of the doubt: he has derived a 32mm id at primary inlet point of the Lextek headers.

On the other hand, I lean toward directing skepticism in the direction of BW - the company who has put a self-proclaimed 18 months into excruciating R&D on a proprietary header, posted a video of a bike on a dyno, declined to publish any resulting performance data, and sent a photo with a specific measurement of the header's primary inlet od as 31.5mm...somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.95mm smaller than the id of the exhaust port.

And let's not forget the other recent hat thrown into the ring  - the alibaba supplier.

We are simply receiving data from multiple sources about multiple products that appear quite similar.

"Downpipes id of 32mm at the inlet point"  that would then step to 29.3mm at the weld?

Is that correct?

[image: id_.jpg]

:dry:
honestly though,  I was mad,  but they're close.

chop them at the first weld,  and put some 35.5mm ID tubing in there, which is cheap and cheerful,  and you're golden.

at some point, it's all custom.  I am more than likely going to have to contact someone to bend and weld similar front primaries to get it to work on my RC79 (Oh yes I will.) so there's that.

at some point there's going to be some silly dyno after I've gotten all the factory power out of the '14 VFR

As regards the widening of the pipe after it leaves the cylinder heard, have we not established that in top level racing this has been found to be very effective? Whatever the reasons, a header pipe that widens from the port diameter to a larger size is what seems to work best. Admittedly we're seeing here a series of different diameter pipes welded together, rather than a nice tapered pipe section, but that will mean a big cost difference and may not affect the efficiency of this design to any measurable degree.

So I don't think the basic premise of this aspect of the design is a problem and neither do I think any fractions of a millimetre in diameter will have any significant impact by itself. However, the overall performance of this system, which is after all radically different from Honda's best design, can only be determined on the dyno and for that, we are all eagerly awaiting some real data.

I'm not sold on BW having gotten me the correct facts, as a matter of fact.

I'm however sold on Alibaba,  BW,  and Lextek all having the same header.  lol

https://message.alibaba.com/msgsend/draftPo.htm?spm=a2700.details.maonnacta.dorder.24056eeaTg7LJG&productId=60684155091&id_f=IDX12py7w2pdIxXHePTpPfiPgPCW9USkE8CWQnjD0LsJexWZchrvPrFJ_JHtYEStDmBZ&mloca=po_en_detail&tracelog=from_detail

go ahead.  click that.  lol

"please add additional details and specifications"

 

22 minutes ago, Voided76

....
I'm however sold on Alibaba,  BW,  and Lextek all having the same header.  lol

Well, from the pictures we’ve seen, they’re not the same. The Alibaba front downpipes cross over whereas the other 2 do not. That’s not to say they’re not all manufactured at the same factory though, but let’s not see things that aren’t there. 

They're all coming from the same shed.

Every process is so extremely similar regardless of how they're crossing.

Needless to say though now that I have an alibaba source I can get a header made at actual spec.  or at least request it and see what they say.

As in:  Suggest to the actual manufacturer of these headers:  aka,  not lextek or BW.  let's not mix that part up.   to put the O2 sensors per bank,  instead of stacked in the collector as if that would actually make useful data for the ECU.

We'll see.  I'll post them some things and see what they say.   my experience with ali manufacturers for fairings has been pretty much stellar.  

I hope these guys are just as reasonable and flexible.

As I keep reading,  they also offer the header in titanium.  Hmm.

@Voided76, I'd be interested to know what kind of shipping quote you get for San Diego.  I went through most of the process to find that it is cost prohibitive to order a single unit for delivery to Milwaukee.  The quote I got was over $800 for shipping alone, not including import duties and taxes or the actual product itself.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

[image: image.png.5b8457d74059a3f1389ed4f496bf5b1a.png]

Jeepers fellas - a real exhaust on a real motorcycle!

[From the Ali Baba site]

13 hours ago, MadScientist

@Voided76, I'd be interested to know what kind of shipping quote you get for San Diego.  I went through most of the process to find that it is cost prohibitive to order a single unit for delivery to Milwaukee.  The quote I got was over $800 for shipping alone, not including import duties and taxes or the actual product itself.

  

Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

That's entirely possible.  that sounds like them trying to extract extra monies THROUGH shipping charges.

So,  we'll see.  they asked me to send them a 2014 header for reference if they were going to make me one.  

Ebay to the rescue.

tossing some low-balls around to see if I can score a header for cheap,  then drop ship it to wherever these guys are.  lol

If they see just how close '14 headers are to their own jigs I imagine they'd just fab up some '14 style front primaries and 8th genners would have a header worth spending money on.

Still hopeful for some good results from Jeff's dyno testing. One small update - the BW header is now in stock and available for purchase, I just received the email notification. 

Yeah, me too. The price is sure right, but I don't know what the shipping and customs fees will be, on top of the price. MadScientist was

saying he got quoted around $800 for shipping alone.

Don't know if it has been mentioned yet but I don't seem to see a stop for the center stand

52 minutes ago, boOZZIE

Don't know if it has been mentioned yet but I don't seem to see a stop for the center stand

The center stand pad is on the link pipe. For BW at least, this comes with the end can, not the header ( think this is common, although it is pictured in the lextek listing). 

3 hours ago, adkfinn

The center stand pad is on the link pipe. For BW at least, this comes with the end can, not the header ( think this is common, although it is pictured in the lextek listing). 

Ah yes you are correct because it is for the 5g not the 6g (BW 6g headers have the stop just before the exit) so something else us 6gers may have to consider &/or those with stock headers & aftermarket silencers

FJ12Ryder, 12/21/2018 at 12:43 PM

Yeah, me too. The price is sure right, but I don't know what the shipping and customs fees will be, on top of the price. MadScientist was

saying he got quoted around $800 for shipping alone.

Just to clarify, that was for the Alibaba supplier.  I did go through the BW order process when I got the email and their shipping is fairly reasonable (I think like $50, but I don't remember).  This deal may get better or worse for everyone outside the UK depending how Brexit proceeds.  That said, the exchange rate is actually pretty good right now, so it might be something of a gamble to wait.

Thanks MS, I was seriously considering ordering it, but the site is down for the Christmas holidays and won't be open until January 2nd.

From what I can tell, the total price, including shipping, would be $367. Not too shabby.

[image: 765448509_smallwork1.jpg.3846b3fed1f9d8f0c7ac8a1704954f28.jpg]

[image: 1730889884_smallwork4.jpg.8713a92380ad4f1677f5d93d04ca49c3.jpg]

517 replies and just shy of Christmas!

Well done guys!

10 hours ago, sfdownhill More good news, gentlemen. In addition to the exciting BW/Lextek/Alibaba offering, we have a new header to add to the mix, and it's a bona fide performance header at that:.........

sfdownhill, that's amazing stuff, sending you a PM right now.......

I have followed this thread even though I have a header and won't likely buy as my old ass is slowing down. I just wanted to say WELL DONE!  This is what makes this place great.

:lurk: mmmm dyno results

Fantastic stuff Sfdownhill and VFRD contributing  members.

A couple of questions about payments,

1. how? PayPal or other 

2. International shipping cost

🍻

Ps will there be a center stand stop?

Color me surprised, someone actually did it.

Once they start shipping I'll pickup a high mileage 5th gen to beat on and grab a set for it. 

I have an old trusty Power Commander 2 ready to go 😄 

Oh man, I'd just about talked myself out of the whole thing, but that thing looks so cool...

after how many of my great effort / completely failed attempts at headers.  

[image: de2.gif.05f81eccf4c009dfb5b756063d0890a2.gif]

Well, the truth is that it's still an egg, not a chicken. But I went to Wade's shop Wednesday Dec 26, and there were CC's TBR headers, nestled in a well-made, nicely welded jig, being modeled for the prototype. Duc2V4 and I have held off making any mention of this header attempt until something was happening for certain, because as anyone who's watched this thread at all knows, complications do arise and fabricators/suppliers do drop out. Like others, we ran into several dead ends and had interested exhaust firms drop out 1/2 way along.

They deserve their own thread, separate from all the bs here. 

16 minutes ago, SEBSPEED

They deserve their own thread, separate from all the bs here. 

I agree there is alot of bs, however I wouldnt start a new thread until testing is finished and production is ready to commence so that the company manufacturing it can be shielded from external interferences

46 minutes ago, SEBSPEED

They deserve their own thread, separate from all the bs here. 

Good call, Seb. We're just now starting the new thread to get a little separation from the history.

27 minutes ago, boOZZIE

I agree there is alot of bs, however I wouldnt start a new thread until testing is finished and production is ready to commence so that the company manufacturing it can be shielded from external interferences

boOZZIE, we're going ahead with the new thread so folks interested in this project won't shy away from the 500+ posts and 22 pages of this existing thread. Because there's a ton of data from past efforts here, in the new thread, we will reference this existing thread.

I have been waiting for something to eventuate for a long time, it has been a long time, With regards to headers and getting rid of the cat, I have an RC 46 gen 6.My first road bike was a VF750 FD then some years later a VF1000R then I bought the Gen 6 then I saved for years and got the ultimate an RC 30 and had it painted in Rothmans colours and unfortunately had to sell it... I would personally like to see the exhaust on the Left hand side.as per RC 30 and RVF for tradition. But understand it has to come out out on the right. I cant wait to get rid of the weight of the twin pipes from under the seat and fit a single pipe.

Somebody should link the new page to the VFRD FB page. There are folks there who may not be here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

33 minutes ago, Sweeper

Somebody should link the new page to the VFRD FB page. There are folks there who may not be here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good idea Sweeper. Posting a link/info about these headers on FB is on our to do list. I'm a member of FB VFR Owner's group, but didn't know VFRD had it's own FB page. Does VFRD have a dedicated FB page? If so, I'll check w Duc2V4 and see about getting us up there, too.

Here's a link to the VFRD "New headers' thread. Just pointing folks toward it in hopes of lightening thread-tending duties a bit. Thanks!

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/88463-new-5th6th8th-gen-performance-header-now-in-production-in-usa/&tab=comments#comment-1091360

1 hour ago, sfdownhill

Good idea Sweeper. Posting a link/info about these headers on FB is on our to do list. I'm a member of FB VFR Owner's group, but didn't know VFRD had it's own FB page. Does VFRD have a dedicated FB page? If so, I'll check w Duc2V4 and see about getting us up there, too.

Here's a link to the VFRD "New headers' thread. Just pointing folks toward it in hopes of lightening thread-tending duties a bit. Thanks!

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/88463-new-5th6th8th-gen-performance-header-now-in-production-in-usa/&tab=comments#comment-1091360

I think one of the things that has slowed the chatter here is that a lot happens on VFRD FB. It is obviously more on the social side of things VFR. 

Stray, 12/8/2018 at 5:20 PM

I really hope he did. Jeff didn’t give me too many details on Friday. Was more focused on the new grandchild, understandably. 

Let’s see what next week brings. 

Sorry i can’t offer any more details guys. I know this is nerve wracking. 

Stray

Happy New Year Stray!

Any word on the dyno results from Jeff? Even though the other new header has caught most of the buzz, I am still very interested in the dyno results of the Lextek header. If the Lextek header can post results at least as good as the stock non-cat 5th gen header I think it is still a good option for those that don't want to pay the premium price for the other 'small batch' header. It would be nice to have info on both options and I don't think the work you and Jeff have put in is in vain. 

1 hour ago, adkfinn

Happy New Year Stray!

Any word on the dyno results from Jeff? Even though the other new header has caught most of the buzz, I am still very interested in the dyno results of the Lextek header. If the Lextek header can post results at least as good as the stock non-cat 5th gen header I think it is still a good option for those that don't want to pay the premium price for the other 'small batch' header. It would be nice to have info on both options and I don't think the work you and Jeff have put in is in vain. 

I am with adkfinn - Stray, the perseverance you’ve demonstrated deserves to bear fruit. I was literally this close (thumb and index finger 1/4” apart) to purchasing a Lextek when the other project swung into action. I still may get a Lextek for a second 5th gen.

Hello All, 

Spoke to Jeff yesterday and he apologised for the delay. 

Unfortunately the grandson situation has got quite setious for Keith who has gone to ground since the lad was born. Very ominous. 

Jeff’s VFR is in Keith’s workshop with the Lextek fitted. They got as far as running it (not under load) and Jeff says it sounded awesome! No more progress since then. 

Dyno testing will have to wait until the grandson situation resolves. 

Sorry to be a wet blanket folks. I’m afraid there’s no working around this one. 

There will be a dyno pull but I can’t say when. Sorry again for the delay! 

Stray

Dyno results are finally here!!!

Hello Folks, 

Jeff finally got his 2000 with Lextek header (and Lextek OP1 muffler) tested on a Dynojet machine. 

Results are good:

[image: E3F59710-B17A-4E8F-B6CE-05AB7BC0D7E2.thumb.jpeg.5c4e57c231b115a47e5821fd70034f1c.jpeg]

Blue with baffle - 101hp

Red without baffle - 104hp

Conditions were less than perfect (open workshop with cold Northern wind blowing through). Jeff says it’s a bit lean so might have done a bit better with more fettling. Nice flat power curve! 

Setup is Lextek header with Lextek OP1 muffler. 

Great results considering this is not a performance header - it is a stainless replacement header at a very good price! 

Prices are same as Lextek website with a very generous discount. PM me for details as Jeff doesn’t want prices published where his suppliers can see them. Discount applies to headers and mufflers/complete systems. 

Shipping is extra. 

Payment ideally by bank transfer or PayPal (buyer covers fees). 

If you’re interested please let me know by PM with name, address and system required. I’ll put the list together for Jeff and see how many buyers we get. 

Any questions just let me know! 

Stray

Yes!  Good work Stray.

You sure he said Lean? Those numbers look pretty rich to me.

That said, this is good data. Shows a reasonable, usable power delivery, so nothing awful is happening there. These should be a bargain at this price.  Thanks for posting!

8 hours ago, MooseMoose

You sure he said Lean? Those numbers look pretty rich to me.

That said, this is good data. Shows a reasonable, usable power delivery, so nothing awful is happening there. These should be a bargain at this price.  Thanks for posting!

Thanks for spotting that Moose - you’re right it looks quite rich at 11.4 as opposed to 13.5 (for power) and 14.5 (for low emissions). There’s probably a few ponies left on the table here. 

I was also impressed by the smoothness of the curve. This header uses different merge pattern from stock and a few folks were worried about that but looks OK to me! 

On the US header build thread the stock 5th gen with catless header, aftermarket muffler and aftermarket air filter posted 107hp after tuning with a PC3. 

Jeff’s bike is in the same ballpark at 104hp with less tuning time and running slightly rich. Not sure if he has a fuel module installed - I’ll ask and report back. 

The TBR-style system is of course a different animal entirely at 114.72hp. Very, very impressive results and I’m looking at an 8th gen version when it gets released. 

But the Lextek is 1/3 of the money for catless header performance and I’m sorely tempted...

I don't want to be the downer on this thread, but even though the dyno chart looks flat, it's not the same as a normal 5G, or 6G.

They normally have a fat mid range which is missining with this header.

From my enterpretation of this chart, it lost a whole heap of mid range grunt. which is the best part of our V4's.

Happy to be told I'm wrong.

PS, forget top rev horse power, that means nothing unless your racing, torque is where it's at.

I really was hoping to see a before & after chart comparison, that would have sealed the deal. 

27 minutes ago, SEBSPEED

I really was hoping to see a before & after chart comparison, that would have sealed the deal. 

x2 on this, with torque figures included as well. Stock vs. modified would be ideal.

Way to go with follow through Stray - it's a tough line to toe between getting someone to put their bike on a dyno and 'over-encouraging' them into retirement from the project.

Do the 'with baffle' and 'without baffle' dyno graphs refer to with or without the quiet insert that can be installed in the canister/muffler's exit?

The lextek isn't that encouraging at all,  TBH unless you're ready to buy a budget header than start hacking and mandrel bending it and re welding the first 8 inches of all 4 primary tubes.  

Pretty obvious that the multi-stage primary tomfoolery evident in the lextek/bw/alibaba header isn't working.  I'd say it's in way better shape than any of the delk/black widow/sbs/motad crap headers,  because for around 100 bucks at a legit speed shop they can be turned into something very much like what we're designing here.   But again.  as it sits it's yet another OEM replacement with a few perks until you chop it up.  

But at least it has that going for it.

Proper primaries on these bikes pick up power just off idle.  The graph you've provided is great testament that they got the merges right.  it's 90% there but they fucked up the primaries.  which is what I've been saying since I saw them/aquired some data through email about them.  at the outlet of the head they're no different from Vtec/8th gen pipes.  and it's why they aren't making More power until later more than likely.

They pick up that immediate 3.5-4 ponies similarly but they don't do it from 3 grand on like the 35.5mm inners do.  

 

[image: 1269798220_Attackmidrangecomparison1012619.thumb.jpg.d9a7af5620ee8ed849ca46ea206d50d6.jpg]

SEBSPEED, 2/1/2019 at 4:36 PM

I really was hoping to see a before & after chart comparison, that would have sealed the deal. 

Hey Seb come on, give the guy a break, EVERY stock 5th gen Dyno run I have seen shows mid 90’s he, as in 94-97, regardless where in the world they were done. The Motad is a copy of the 98/99 model headers which are larger bore than the 00/01 versions, just with or without O2 bungs. They normally push max power up to around 101-102hp.  If this system is significantly less in $$$ terms, then it’s a good replacement system & by the looks of it should last the lifetime of the bike.

7 hours ago, Mohawk

Hey Seb come on, give the guy a break, EVERY stock 5th gen Dyno run I have seen shows mid 90’s he, as in 94-97, regardless where in the world they were done. The Motad is a copy of the 98/99 model headers which are larger bore than the 00/01 versions, just with or without O2 bungs. They normally push max power up to around 101-102hp.  If this system is significantly less in $$$ terms, then it’s a good replacement system & by the looks of it should last the lifetime of the bike.

I totally agree with you re: good value as a replacement system. Also, I am thankful for the efforts made to obtain & provide info! All I meant with my comment was that the additional data point could have put the kibosh on any further speculation re: overall performance. I'm a sucker for data  :biggrin:  

I agree with both Seb and Mohawk. The Lextek looks like a reasonable system at a good price and depending on your individual requirements, may indeed be the ideal choice. But...

I would have liked to see a back to back comparison with the same bike fitted with the standard system. In isolation, that dyno chart is let's say, not as useful as it would be if we had the standard one to compare. Maybe that bike on that dyno just produces higher figures and the standard system might produce higher/better results, showing the Lextek as perhaps significantly inferior. I'm not suggesting it is, but without the comparison, let's be honest, we don't actually know.

I guess we could try looking at another chart of a standard bike and see how that compares. Not ideal, but probably better than nothing at all. Anyone got one to hand?

A group could gather funding and offer to pay for Jeff to have the stock header/muffler put back on, then run the same bike on the same dyno. With nothing out of pocket, he'd have a hard time saying no.

Mohawk, 2/3/2019 at 10:39 AM

Hey Seb come on, give the guy a break, EVERY stock 5th gen Dyno run I have seen shows mid 90’s he, as in 94-97, regardless where in the world they were done. The Motad is a copy of the 98/99 model headers which are larger bore than the 00/01 versions, just with or without O2 bungs. They normally push max power up to around 101-102hp.  If this system is significantly less in $$$ terms, then it’s a good replacement system & by the looks of it should last the lifetime of the bike.

You've nailed it Mohawk - it’s a very good value replacement that makes 5th gen catless power in stainless. It’s also better than the existing offerings from Motad/SBS/Delk...and cheaper! 

Youre not not going to win any GPs with this system (your TBR is optimised for that) but it’s a good replacement. 

BiKenG, 2/4/2019 at 12:12 PM

I agree with both Seb and Mohawk. The Lextek looks like a reasonable system at a good price and depending on your individual requirements, may indeed be the ideal choice. But...

I would have liked to see a back to back comparison with the same bike fitted with the standard system. In isolation, that dyno chart is let's say, not as useful as it would be if we had the standard one to compare. Maybe that bike on that dyno just produces higher figures and the standard system might produce higher/better results, showing the Lextek as perhaps significantly inferior. I'm not suggesting it is, but without the comparison, let's be honest, we don't actually know.

I guess we could try looking at another chart of a standard bike and see how that compares. Not ideal, but probably better than nothing at all. Anyone got one to hand?

Good point re comparison but I don’t think anyone can really argue the Lextek loses any power against the catless 5th gen. Yes, torque figures and before-after comparison are missing but the power curve is nice and flat. 

See notes below regarding torque. 

SEBSPEED, 2/3/2019 at 5:50 PM

I totally agree with you re: good value as a replacement system. Also, I am thankful for the efforts made to obtain & provide info! All I meant with my comment was that the additional data point could have put the kibosh on any further speculation re: overall performance. I'm a sucker for data  :biggrin:  

Agree. Jeff went to a 3rd choice dyno to get this done because it was dragging on and he wanted to put this to bed. 

Unfortunately that dyno didn’t provide torque values. 

On the the other hand I seem to recall the group saying the Lextek merge pattern is optimised for torque instead of top-end power (correct me if this is wrong?) so we should be fine there. 

VFROZ, 2/1/2019 at 12:25 PM

PS, forget top rev horse power, that means nothing unless your racing, torque is where it's at.

VFROZ, didn’t someone post earlier that the Lextek merges are optimised for torque rather than top-end power? 

Voided76, 2/3/2019 at 6:31 AM

The lextek isn't that encouraging at all,  TBH unless you're ready to buy a budget header than start hacking and mandrel bending it and re welding the first 8 inches of all 4 primary tubes.  

Pretty obvious that the multi-stage primary tomfoolery evident in the lextek/bw/alibaba header isn't working.  I'd say it's in way better shape than any of the delk/black widow/sbs/motad crap headers,  because for around 100 bucks at a legit speed shop they can be turned into something very much like what we're designing here.   But again.  as it sits it's yet another OEM replacement with a few perks until you chop it up.  

But at least it has that going for it.

Proper primaries on these bikes pick up power just off idle.  The graph you've provided is great testament that they got the merges right.  it's 90% there but they fucked up the primaries.  which is what I've been saying since I saw them/aquired some data through email about them.  at the outlet of the head they're no different from Vtec/8th gen pipes.  and it's why they aren't making More power until later more than likely.

They pick up that immediate 3.5-4 ponies similarly but they don't do it from 3 grand on like the 35.5mm inners do.  
 

[image: 1269798220_Attackmidrangecomparison1012619.thumb.jpg.d9a7af5620ee8ed849ca46ea206d50d6.jpg]

Voided76, don’t bigger diameter pipes make power at the top and lose torque at the bottom? If the concern is that the primaries are too narrow (and I accept they are narrower than the TBR header) then how are they, “making More power until later more than likely”? I suspect the narrower primaries IMPROVE torque lower down, no?

The Lextek top end power is a known quantity but torque and midrange shouldn’t suffer with these primary sizes (same as catless 5th gen, I believe?). 

sfdownhill, 2/4/2019 at 6:43 PM

A group could gather funding and offer to pay for Jeff to have the stock header/muffler put back on, then run the same bike on the same dyno. With nothing out of pocket, he'd have a hard time saying no.

Good point but I fear Jeff is done with this now. This saga has worn him out and I can’t see him going to any further efforts. He runs a very busy exhaust business and frankly has bigger fish to fry. 

We could always pick one up and do our own dyno testing. Anyone want a good cheap header?

I know lots of us are hooked on the TBR project in the US and I am among those. But the expense and performance aren’t for everyone. I’ve seen decent VFRs sell for less than £1000 on eBay (probably cheaper in the US?) so installing a system that costs £1000 (after shipping and taxes) doesn’t make sense for everyone. 

Thats where the Lextek comes in. 

Thanks to everyone for their input - let’s keep the discussion lively. I’ve learned more about exhausts on this thread than anywhere else. If I got any of the theory wrong please let me know. Every day is a learning day. 

Stray 

1 hour ago, Stray

Unfortunately that dyno didn’t provide torque values. 

We could calculate that. If someone was prepared to enter the power figures (read from the dyno graph) into a spreadsheet that could then be used to calculate and show the torque curve.

Further, if other data from other dyno runs with different exhausts was also entered, we could build up a set of torque/power stats that would provide the perfect comparison chart. The only issue with that would be differing parameters like actual bike and dyno used and atmospheric conditions etc. However, it WOULD be better than nothing.

To address what you think about what I make of the lextek:
The primaries make a big difference in the midrange to where the cross of HP/Torque  happens.  

You can SEE the effect of enlarged primaries in Delkevic's own dyno results.  a pretty decent midrange bump,  and then the awful merges of it's POS 4-1 hodge podge cause a net loss of 5 hp or so on the topend.

They used to have the dynosheets up,  and they've since taken them down.  lol.  If you do a search around here you'll find them.  I might have one,  but I have to go to work.  to be continued.
 

[image: 1920548509_product79307_5-600x600(2).jpg.2cebb0615da7c12c6e5f20eaefb1072d.jpg]
Case in point.  This is the '14 VFR with a Delk header.  Stock muffler.  picks up great in the midrange,  and then the complete shit merges and collector design causes it to LOSE high rpm horsepower to even the stock header and it's T junction merges,  if that tells you anything.

I'd have no issues recommending a delk header except:  it causes the VFR to completely fall on it's face after 9 grand.  

it's why I roll my eyes at delk headers,  it's why I'm actually very very angry about the BW/Ali/Lextek headers.  they're so close to nailing every aspect that it would've been likely cheaper,  to run the 36-38mm ID primary the whole way.  and make more power.  but they didn't.  It comes out of the header with the same squashed down ID as the stock '14 VFR,  which you see here get LEFT in the midrange by even 98 spec primaries.  Because that's what delk is running here,  32mm ID vs 30-29mm for the vtec era.  

They left (lots of) horsepower on the table.  for what,  so you could use the stock exhaust gaskets?  So they could save 10-20 dollars a header instead of doing a decent set of merges and slip joints?

lmfao  goddamn these companies.  
 

All fiddling and speculation and likelyhood aside,  How's the SoCal header doing?

4 hours ago, Voided76

All fiddling and speculation and likelyhood aside,  How's the SoCal header doing?

Here is the thread for the US header (up to date info / pics / dyno ) : https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/88463-new-5th6th8th-gen-performance-header-now-in-production-in-usa/&page=9&tab=comments#comment-1093004

Hello All, 

Looks like interest in the Lextek group buy has gone badly south. There are only have two names on the list of willing buyers. 

On Tuesday I will ring Jeff and give him the final tally so we can put this thing to bed. If anyone else is interested in a very well-priced replacement header please get in touch with your contact details ASAP. 

Hopefully Jeff will honour the original discount but no guarantees as it has been so long and we are significantly below the number of units requested.  

Best, 

Stray 

Voided76, 2/3/2019 at 7:31 AM

The lextek isn't that encouraging at all,  TBH unless you're ready to buy a budget header than start hacking and mandrel bending it and re welding the first 8 inches of all 4 primary tubes.  

Pretty obvious that the multi-stage primary tomfoolery evident in the lextek/bw/alibaba header isn't working.  I'd say it's in way better shape than any of the delk/black widow/sbs/motad crap headers,  because for around 100 bucks at a legit speed shop they can be turned into something very much like what we're designing here.   But again.  as it sits it's yet another OEM replacement with a few perks until you chop it up.  

But at least it has that going for it.

Proper primaries on these bikes pick up power just off idle.  The graph you've provided is great testament that they got the merges right.  it's 90% there but they fucked up the primaries.  which is what I've been saying since I saw them/aquired some data through email about them.  at the outlet of the head they're no different from Vtec/8th gen pipes.  and it's why they aren't making More power until later more than likely.

They pick up that immediate 3.5-4 ponies similarly but they don't do it from 3 grand on like the 35.5mm inners do.  

 

[image: 1269798220_Attackmidrangecomparison1012619.thumb.jpg.d9a7af5620ee8ed849ca46ea206d50d6.jpg]

I am actually very interested in at least one Lextek system but currently not really in a position to do much about it having been knocked off my bike and only just returned from hospital. Uppermost in my mind right now is suing the idiot in the van who tried to execute a rapid U turn right in front of me, throwing me to the ground and puncturing my lung - not to mention the damage caused to my beautiful eVo4. Anyway...

A couple of question about this system. First of all, what is Jeff's special price for us on this and is it suitable for 8th Gen bikes? Specifically I want 2 systems for what will be 5th Gen motors with front rads and high level exhausts. So that means 8th Gen front headers with 5/6th Gen collector and outlet. After all the discussion, I'm no longer sure if the Lextek caters for the 8th Gen front rads?

I sent Simmi/ Jeff an email to see if I could still get a set sent to the US, since I haven't been able to find a supplier over here, but have yet to hear back from them.  If I can get a hold of a set, I plan on getting it on the dyno for tuning.  Might as well do a before and after too  (05 with 7k miles on it at sea level).

14 hours ago, Stobl

I sent Simmi/ Jeff an email to see if I could still get a set sent to the US, since I haven't been able to find a supplier over here, but have yet to hear back from them.  If I can get a hold of a set, I plan on getting it on the dyno for tuning.  Might as well do a before and after too  (05 with 7k miles on it at sea level).

If anyone needs help with forwarding a system to the US (or elsewhere), I would be prepared to have it delivered here to me in the UK and send it on to the buyer who would have to make the arrangments and any payments as I'm not currently fully mobile. Obviously it would be simpler for the seller to ship it direct, but if that proves impossible I would do what I can to help.

Not sure if I am allowed to hijack this thread but here goes anyway. Apologies for TYGA taking so long to getting around to making the VFR system. Those pesky KTM RC390 owners butted in front of the queue. Something to do with them needing to go racing in 2019...Anyway, we are now on the VFR system full time so the prototype is only a few days away from completion. The starting point was the TBR  system as requested but we've made some changes, some for better flow, some to suit our tooling, and some changes for better installation and clearance so the final result will be somewhat different but hopefully what owners want. We took a bit of a guess on the configuration and based on what owners had told us, we decided to make two versions. One will be a left exit, high level so will require removal of passenger pegs. The other version, will also be a high level but on the right and be tucked behind the passenger peg hanger for those wishing to  keep the passenger carrying capabilities. If there is another configuration, (toying with the idea of dual exit right and left) then let us know. We would also like a bit of input on the silencer (muffler) design. We have a few ideas but welcome input on materials, dimensions, shapes budgets etc. Anyway, I guess photos will be nice and they will be coming soon 🙂 Appreciate your patience!

Welcome TYGA, awesome news. I thought you had abandoned this project, so looking forward to see what you have done.  

As an FYI I checked with a colleague in Japan what dimensions the Ladybird HRC RC45 uses. Turns out they are 38mm OD & 36mm ID albeit in Titanium, same as the TBR I have fitted to mine. I'll be interested in your dyno results . 

Keep up the good work 👍😀

5 hours ago, tyga

Not sure if I am allowed to hijack this thread but here goes anyway. Apologies for TYGA taking so long to getting around to making the VFR system. Those pesky KTM RC390 owners butted in front of the queue. Something to do with them needing to go racing in 2019...Anyway, we are now on the VFR system full time so the prototype is only a few days away from completion. The starting point was the TBR  system as requested but we've made some changes, some for better flow, some to suit our tooling, and some changes for better installation and clearance so the final result will be somewhat different but hopefully what owners want. We took a bit of a guess on the configuration and based on what owners had told us, we decided to make two versions. One will be a left exit, high level so will require removal of passenger pegs. The other version, will also be a high level but on the right and be tucked behind the passenger peg hanger for those wishing to  keep the passenger carrying capabilities. If there is another configuration, (toying with the idea of dual exit right and left) then let us know. We would also like a bit of input on the silencer (muffler) design. We have a few ideas but welcome input on materials, dimensions, shapes budgets etc. Anyway, I guess photos will be nice and they will be coming soon 🙂 Appreciate your patience!

🍿

Left and right high mount? 🤔

Is this a 5g only version?

Yay TYGA :cheerleader:

more options for vfr

Like Mohawk said, I thought you abandoned us...it's been a minute

Oooh, left high mount would show off my lurid green 1098s rear wheel nicely...[image: imageproxy.php?img=&key=7efb97be9d19f7a0737d0938b42b793bdaef]

Tyga yes !!! Right side dump that will work with undertail exhaust for 6gen please and perhaps a true dual under-tail exhaust with proper splitter or dual piping 🤤. Here is a picture of my Make shift Panigali undertail exhaust. 

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Left side dump for single high mount and custom subframe and tale section would also be amazing 😉 

Also pleas keep us posted on progress 👏

5 hours ago, PetoRC

Tyga yes !!! Right side dump that will work with undertail exhaust for 6gen please and perhaps a true dual under-tail exhaust with proper splitter or dual piping 🤤. Here is a picture of my Make shift Panigali undertail exhaust. 

As a 6th gen owner this is my vote as well.........

7 hours ago, jim v

As a 6th gen owner this is my vote as well.........

Same here - standard position right side outlet for 5 & 6th gen.  Also interested in an 8th gen setup with standard right side outlet if available.  Seems like there could possibly be other 8th gen interest particularly if the "Wade Brand" headers will no longer be produced. 

My boys from Tyga 🙂

I'm proud to see you guys back in the discussion.  It's been 2 years since I've even owned a 6th gen but I have admired and wanted your work since probably 2014.  
 

A left-exit 5th/8th gen exhaust system would certainly be unique.  It's probably the best way to show off the SSSA--but I'm not sure there's enough room for the link pipe to pass under the beefy swing arm.  I believe HRC had to deform the link pipe and bevel the swing arm on the RC30 to get enough clearance.  

Ciao,

JZH

I’m really keen to see what Tyga come up with. Have seen a few custom left exit 5th gen systems so it’s doable. 

Some splayed 8th gen style front headers would be great for front mount radiators. 

Whats the progress report, please? 

Stray

Yes please keep us posted 👍👍!