Pics Of New Honda V4 In This Week's Mcn

World exclusive official pics of the new Honda VFR in this week's issue of MCN. I know there are cynics among you, but these aren't mock-ups, they're proper pictures of the actual machine.

Honda V4

There's a sneak preview of the new issue here, but you'll have to wait until tomorrow to see images of the bike:

New MCN June 24: Honda V4 official pictures

james

I see the word shaft drive.

I see BatBoy's hand in this...

What ever happened to the VFR1000F and VFR1000GT bikes you guys said were coming in 2009?

Dirk

For all the times MCN's been dead wrong on this issue, I suppose they just might be right for once if only by statistical chance. :dry:
I'll go along, but only because of the human nature to believe in what one wants to believe. :rolleyes:

Having said that, I am not sure that H needs a "busa beater". There's plenty of that already... The picture 'leaked' a few days ago and now hidden by MCN does not inspire me too much as well. The X-men theme up front and the assorted bits and pieces borrowed from the current lineup... Hmmm...

However, if this new bike is not too heavy and is still as nimble in the turns and as comfortable touring and not overpriced and there are no major fueling or electrical issues and ..... I'll definitely look for one to pop up on eBay in a year or two.
Yeah, I'm a cheap bastige. :blush:

[image: View Post]MCNJamesKeen, on Jun 23 2009, 04:23 PM, said:

but these aren't mock-ups, they're proper pictures of the actual machine.
Like the photo of the computerscreen that shows the headlight? Next time do not forget to get the cursor of the drafting program out of sight and have 'em draw up some more modern lights, like HIDs or LED. :lurk:
[image: Posted Image]

:schla15:
[image: Posted Image]

[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on Jun 23 2009, 11:29 AM, said:

[image: View Post]MCNJamesKeen, on Jun 23 2009, 04:23 PM, said:

but these aren't mock-ups, they're proper pictures of the actual machine.
Like the photo of the computerscreen that shows the headlight? Next time do not forget to get the cursor of the drafting program out of sight and have 'em draw up some more modern lights, like HIDs or LED. :lurk:
[image: Posted Image]


V4 Rosso: First Expert Witness for the Prosecution :fing02:

If Honda's new V4 (and of course I mean "if and when") is 1200cc, will Big Red drop the ST1300? I can't see making both, esp. since I'm guessing the ST gets its butt kicked in sales figures by Yamaha's FJR.

I really don't see the need for a 1200cc V4, unless Honda is trying to compete with the Kaw. ZX-14, Suz. 'Busa and BMW K1300S. If this is the new VFR (or the player to be named) I hope it sells well. Would be nice to see more V4s on the road.

Also, if Honda really wanted to produce a V4 people have been calling for, it would make a V4 liter bike with touring capabilities but lighter than the current VFR.

On the other hand, like Jeremy said... :schla15:

I hope this is all 'much ado about something'. ;)

MCN - Are you telling the truth THIS time??

I'd be happy if the new V4 just had 200+cc's, 6th gen frame/style and err... well that's it really :rolleyes:

As the song goes...."Time's the revelator..."

Mac

[image: View Post]Vee-Ef-Ar, on Jun 23 2009, 09:42 AM, said:

I see the word shaft drive.

"Shaft" is right.

...says he who is three generations behind.

[image: View Post]Vee-Ef-Ar, on Jun 23 2009, 10:42 AM, said:

I see the word shaft drive.


WOW really?

I zoomed my interweb browser up 400% larger than standard and still could not make out any text.

I certainly hope it is not shaft drive, unless it keeps V-Tec then we know this is the sport tourer and I can hold out for the sport sport version to gert back to its roots. :cool:

Why do they say "World exclusive: official pics of new Honda V4 revealed in MCN " yet say "Its extraordinary V5-derived engine"

how can you have a v4 derived from a v5? err.... i'm sensing fake...... again!

[image: View Post]yikes, on Jun 23 2009, 12:38 PM, said:

Why do they say "World exclusive: official pics of new Honda V4 revealed in MCN " yet say "Its extraordinary V5-derived engine"

how can you have a v4 derived from a v5? err.... i'm sensing fake...... again!
Why would Honda release an all new-engined bike in the pages of MCN? They wouldn't, it'll be some more concept drawings.

This autumn Honda will kick off a marketing campaign like they did with the Fury, or when the DN01 was unveiled, etc.

from their comments:

"Im waiting to see how it will compare with MCN's exclusive give-the-teaboy-a-go-on-photoshop-and-see-what-he-comes-up-with pictures....

Remember how they mocked-up "exclusive" shots of the new 'Busa, looking all very GSXR...?

Wankers, take us readers for tits"

replied with:

"We might be wankers but when it's a mockup we say it's a mockup, and when it's real we're the wankers who get the story a country mile before the other publications, the ones that wait for the press packs to arrive."

[image: View Post]Vee-Ef-Ar, on Jun 23 2009, 03:42 PM, said:

I see the word shaft drive.

Shaft drive = VFR is finally dead, IMO!
They should call it an ST then, if they're going that way!

Beck
95 VFR

[image: View Post]MCNJamesKeen, on Jun 23 2009, 07:23 AM, said:

I know there are cynics among you, but these aren't mock-ups, they're proper pictures of the actual machine.

Us? Cynics?!# :ohmy:

[image: View Post]MCNJamesKeen, on Jun 23 2009, 09:23 AM, said:

World exclusive official pics of the new Honda VFR in this week's issue of MCN.
james

I'm not calling you names or saying anything one way or another. But I do have a question. After the issue comes out tommorrow, are you going to post photo here for us?

Fool me once, shame on � shame on you. Fool me � you can't get fooled again.

jeremy556, Jun 23 2009, 09:48 PMMCN is about as credible as the 2 guys that have a truck full of extra speakers they can't take back to the warehouse that they want to give me a screaming deal on.

What are you sayin'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) Those guys are no good? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

*yawn* It's a good thing HS has so much bandwidth and resources available for all this type of crap to be shoveled around without shutting him down. :rolleyes:

nuke, Jun 23 2009, 08:53 PM

jeremy556, Jun 23 2009, 10:30 AM(IMG:style_emoticons/default/schla15.gif)
(IMG:http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr260/Jeremy556/Humor/BatboyMCN.jpg)

I find myself rooting for Batboy, Go Batboy Go.
He will get away, you see he is riding the new VFR!!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Pretty sure he'll have no problem with the Mini Cooper

vfr_steve, Jun 23 2009, 01:21 PMMCN - Are you telling the truth THIS time??

I'd be happy if the new V4 just had 200+cc's, 5th gen frame/style and err... well that's it really (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

THere ya go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This all seems to be based on the MCN "interview" with Honda�s Senior Managing Director Shigeru Takagi. Did some Googling and all the reports reference back to this MCN interview, I couldn't find a second confirming source of Takagi's comments. Makes me wonder if any of it is legit; the autumn release, 2010 availability.

:unsure:

[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on Jun 23 2009, 08:29 AM, said:

[image: View Post]MCNJamesKeen, on Jun 23 2009, 04:23 PM, said:

but these aren't mock-ups, they're proper pictures of the actual machine.
Like the photo of the computerscreen that shows the headlight? Next time do not forget to get the cursor of the drafting program out of sight and have 'em draw up some more modern lights, like HIDs or LED. :lurk:
[image: Posted Image]



AND, I rest my case you Honor!! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

:lurk:

PPM

Like a lot of other folks on here, I've heard "wolf" cried far too many times over the last few years to believe this is anything but mere fantasy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pissed.gif)

On the other hand if

a) I see an official press release from Honda, or
b) I sit on the damn thing at the next Motorcycle show

I might get a bit more excited.

And even if it the best thing since sliced bread, I still like my franken 6th gen too much (and have too many other things to blow my cash on) to come up with the Oz 20'something grand that it would take to replace it. But by all means, bring it on so I can go thrash it at Eastern Creek at the offical HRCA launch day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wheel.gif)

Oh yeah, and I think that post on MCN summed up for me what I thought about that headlight design... Ribbit!! Maybe they'll make a green one and we can call the 7th Gen the Froggy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

If it is so great and amazing and something that we're all going to want, they would have released something real to really convince people that they want to start saving up for it.

What I can see is "Worlds (first look?) _covered_ of 2010's most exciting new bike _covered_ to BMW _something_ shaft drive."

And this is not the first time they have claimed a shaft drive, it looks to be a rehash of August 7th's 2008 one but they added 200cc to it, dropped a cylinder off the V5 and POOF! New VFR. :dry:

"If that's not enough, they've also linked it to a Ferrari-style push-button gearchange for the fastest, smoothest gearchange yet seen, running through shaft drive with a trademark VFR single-sided swingarm."

[image: View Post]jeremy556, on Jun 23 2009, 10:30 AM, said:

[image: Posted Image]

Awesome!!!
Bat Boy is back!!!!

(IMG:http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e81/Dutch9090/Photochop/MCN.jpg)

I'll beleive it when i take it for a test ride.
As if Honda would allow a rag like MCN to have sucha scoop (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

MCNJamesKeen, Jun 23 2009, 07:23 AMWorld exclusive official pics of the new Honda VFR in this week's issue of MCN. I know there are cynics among you, but these aren't mock-ups, they're proper pictures of the actual machine.

Honda V4

There's a sneak preview of the new issue here, but you'll have to wait until tomorrow to see images of the bike:

New MCN June 24: Honda V4 official pictures

james

It is now 6:30 a.m, Wednesday morning, June 24, 2009, in London. Still no story or pictures from MCN. Oh MCN, why do you taunt me?

Nothing about it being a VFR! :mad:

Vaporware!

[image: View Post]jeremy556, on Jun 23 2009, 10:30 AM, said:

:schla15:
[image: Posted Image]

I find myself rooting for Batboy, Go Batboy Go.
He will get away, you see he is riding the new VFR!!!!! :biggrin:

Hmm. Asphaltandrubber.com

[image: Posted Image]

Looks nice to me! ...but not if it's shaft drive! :(

[image: View Post]ZenMoto, on Jun 23 2009, 08:20 PM, said:

Hmm. Asphaltandrubber.com

*snip*

Looks nice to me! ...but not if it's shaft drive! :(

Nope, that's an old one, MCN had that for last year (along with others).

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/21585...FRONT-oct15.jpg
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/new...4-concept-bike/

[image: View Post]MCNJamesKeen, on Jun 23 2009, 07:23 AM, said:

I know there are cynics among you, but these aren't mock-ups, they're proper pictures of the actual machine.
This post must have been deleted or something? For good reason I think.

Are you familiar with the bullshit "content" your own rag has published in the past regarding the VFR? MCN is about as credible as the 2 guys that have a truck full of extra speakers they can't take back to the warehouse that they want to give me a screaming deal on.

First pic is up:

(IMG:http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/252662/images/cover.jpg)

Of course there are no other pictures on the web yet. MCN needs to get the hint and realise the era of print news is OVER.

I'm not buying their stupid rag as a matter of course now, and will gleefully check out the pictures when they hit the web. Which should be in a couple of hours.

Muppets.

kaldek, Jun 24 2009, 10:02 AMFirst pic is up:

(IMG:http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/252662/images/cover.jpg)

Yep, here it is, there's some more details about the bike too: Honda V4

dont mind the look of the bike, but

"That�s it�s variable-cylinder engine, which enables the rear bank of cylinders to shut down completely, leaving the bike effectively a parallel twin on light loads, which should dramatically boost fuel economy and emissions performance. "


WTF? if it is true, we will have jugtech transition threads from here to yonder.

timmythecop, Jun 24 2009, 07:09 PMdont mind the look of the bike, but

"That�s it�s variable-cylinder engine, which enables the rear bank of cylinders to shut down completely, leaving the bike effectively a parallel twin on light loads, which should dramatically boost fuel economy and emissions performance. "


WTF? if it is true, we will have jugtech transition threads from here to yonder.

Honda Australia better make sure they bring in ALL the features. For some stupid reason we never got the ABS 6th-gen model here, which just boggles the mind.

Personally I could really use the cylinder deactivation technology because my '02 is a gasoholic, especially at speed. The deactivation while cruising would nicely offset that.

Yay, Honda have given us....... a BMW?

New breed indeed... not.

At least it finally has 21st century radial brakes and USD front forks. And the shaft... hmm.. we can all chuck our scottoilers in the bin I guess. But that fugly exhaust has gotta go.

I could care less until Honda puts out a press release.

Maybe it's me but it looks huge (especially the upper part of the fairing) like the old BMW K1200RS.

Is that a shaft drive that I am seeing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) ?

New pics
But old news...

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=49803

kaldek, Jun 24 2009, 11:02 AMand will gleefully check out the pictures when they hit the web. Which should be in a couple of hours.

I don't think there will not be any more renderings unless MCN fires up their computer again to makes some from different angles or with different colors.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Dutch, that cover photo is hilarious (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

My parents named me Thomas and I don't know why but I have been a skeptic most of my life (something biblical going on here?) ........... I will believe it is real when I get to touch it and sit on it and ride it or at least hear it run at my local Honda dealer. Until then all this is merely a marketing ploy to induce yet another member of the generally stupid general public to purchase this months copy of the motorcycle rag.

I have maintained for many many years that the general public are stupid. The proof is all around us if we choose to acknowledge it. Gladly, the folks here are an exception to that rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fing02.gif)

I will say that the idea of two cylinders shutting down, when not needed to maintain speed, does seem like a great way to save fuel, I like it. If it comes out I'll take a look for one when the new RWB i bought two weeks ago dies....so not for a long time id say.

load of rubbish, theres nothing on the Honda sites...

pjm204, Jun 24 2009, 08:17 AMI will say that the idea of two cylinders shutting down, when not needed to maintain speed, does seem like a great way to save fuel, I like it. If it comes out I'll take a look for one when the new RWB i bought two weeks ago dies....so not for a long time id say.

Good concept in design, but the way I ride I would expect that feature would never be utilized (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Even riding above VTEC a majority of the time I am still getting around 42-44 mpg per tank using premium fuel. If that new system allowed higher 40's mpg on lower octane than it may be a good thing.

Still a photochop, and an ugly one at that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I'm going to withhold judgement on the proposed "new" bike until something concrete shows up. But I will say that the variable displacement part could be a reality. I remember reading an article from a credible website a year or two ago that discussed a Blackbird that Honda had modified to test their variable displacement technology.

I smell cow poop!

Is it me or did they steal vanion's paint scheme?

JHKolb, Jun 24 2009, 07:41 AM

pjm204, Jun 24 2009, 08:17 AMI will say that the idea of two cylinders shutting down, when not needed to maintain speed, does seem like a great way to save fuel, I like it. If it comes out I'll take a look for one when the new RWB i bought two weeks ago dies....so not for a long time id say.

Good concept in design, but the way I ride I would expect that feature would never be utilized (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Even riding above VTEC a majority of the time I am still getting around 42-44 mpg per tank using premium fuel. If that new system allowed higher 40's mpg on lower octane than it may be a good thing.

Didn't they try this in the 70's and realize it was a poor idea? You still have to move the pistons in those cylinders etc.

Batboy has been busy...

MCN must be having quite a laugh...

(IMG:http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/252650/images/v4-teaser-unblurred.jpg)

Here is the words we have all been looking for...From the so called rare interview with Shigeru Takagi...

MCN investigations suggest the bike will be a 1200cc V4 at the high-end of Honda�s range � more Super Blackbird than Fireblade.

They "suggest" gets them off the hook for being wrong come this fall when we see nothing new in terms of a 7th gen VFR. The world market is in the tank right now, I would bet sales are way down on bikes as they are an enjoyment item in life. So until things pick up I doubt anyone brings out something new this year.

I'd like to see a decent res version of that one posted above from the side with the mega size 1000RR can on it, but even from that, it looks like MCN really needs some new graphic designers if they are trying to pass these off as actual photos.

[image: View Post]Kestrel, on Aug 13 2009, 12:14 PM, said:

But then there are the thousands of us who wish that, rather than piling on more weight, Honda would go back to the roots and recreate a V4 based supersport. The VFR has absolutely gone in the wrong direction, piling on useless weight and straying far from its original mission. Why do you think so very many of the members here look for 2nd/3rd/4th/5th gen bikes? Nostalgia means so much... And it is arguable that "progress" has not been made with the 6th gen. It is quite clear that the spyshotted V4 is to compete with motos like the K1300S and so on. Dare I call it supersport touring? There's nothing we can do at that point to change that. I am not opposed to such a bike, though. The K13 will be 540-550 wet, but with over 175hp and 100ft/lbs of torque. That's perfectly acceptable... A Helluva sport tourer.. Bring that bike back. Bring that history back. Bring back the innovation that dominated Suzuka from the get-go, and continued on for the next 10 years.

Survey says.............. X X X

There is a glut of bikes that fill the niche that VFR was once in. If VFR goes back to that, most of us that ride the newer VFR's won't be buying another. The market does not need another sport bike, it needs a good sport tourer, emphasis on the SPORT, not the tour. That is why, having owned a 4th gen VFR, I much prefer my 6th gen.

[image: View Post]skuuter trash, on Aug 13 2009, 02:51 PM, said:

I understand all of these sentiments also (I owned two mid-80s VFRs also many years ago).....but knowing that after Scooter and Cruiser Sales, Adventure Touring, and Sport Touring are the next largest selling markets in Street Bikes, I figure Honda, like everyone else needs to pay the Bills.......maybe later, in a better economy, a lighter, full blown Sport version with a V-4 will appear......... :fing02: :beer:

The cruiser segment isn't going to last forever. Harley Davidson is finding that out the hard way. Aside from that, the Fury seems to be doing just fine. I see that you've got a DN-01, and while I'm not entirely sure what Honda attempted to do with it, I'm quite sure that it won't be around for too long.

I'm not knocking the VFR as a sport tourer in any form or fashion. There comes a point, though, when all of that weight adds up and the "sport" emphasis is lost. The bike simply becomes too heavy. For most, that point comes at around 550lbs wet. I'm not knocking the sport touring segment in the least. I am pleased with the direction that the new VFR has taken in comparison to the sixth gen. Necessary power was added. If the fuel efficiency is as realistic as Honda claims, and the power stays up there, they may be on to something. The weight cannot continue to climb, however. All of these electronic gizmos add weight, and that'll kill the bike in the end. There are already plenty of motorcycles out there like that. Why wreck the VFR and continue its overweight progression?

ST1300 is indeed long in the tooth. It needs replaced. I assume that Honda may detune the new V4 engine, and plop it into a new ST1300. Honda is of course going to charge a premium for the new viffer, or whatever they call it. Again - it has got to compare with the K13S. 550lbs wet, respectable handling, 175/105 hp/tq, and it gets 50+ mpg to boot. Such a bike absolutely destroys the current sixth gen VFR. There's no comparison, aside from cost.

When Honda releases the new V4, it should directly replace the 6th gen as it stands. There's no reason to keep the VFR around when the new V4 is released, assuming the mission of the bike is similar. More sport than tour...

If I had a choice? I'd say Honda should market the following bikes...

V4 Sport/Supersport - 700-750 CCs

V4 Sport Tour - Current Spyshotted V4 1200cc

V4 Tour - ST1300 Replacement, using a detuned 1200cc engine... Drop the overall top hp and add some torque.

Triumph is selling the Speed Triple 675 like hotcakes. I've ridden one. It is an absolutely fantastic bike. Incredibly agile, but also with TORQUE. The triple makes just as much HP, but much more torque than any of the other I4s. It competes *quite* well. Why will Honda not pursue a market segment that the 675 has clearly done well at? Make a V4 supersport. Make it light. Make it compete... Customers *will* appreciate that torque. The old VFR750s can pump out 100/55 without a problem. That's a heck of an old design, too. A light SS with those sorts of numbers would do QUITE well if Honda would bring it to market. Especially with a V4. Play hard on the old RC30/RC45 heritage. They will sell shitloads of them. At this point, you'll have to assume what this would do to CBR sales. Honda has a distinct history with both types of engines, of course.

So - we've got a problem... In that case, how do you proceed? Can Honda justify two types of SS lines of bikes? V4 and I4? That is of course where this get tough. It works for Triumph, as they are solely focused on the triple. That was a new market for them, and it didn't take sales away from anything else. But for Honda? Is there are market for that sort of thing? So close to the 600?

Suzuki has done well with the entire GSXR line... 600/750/1000. Technology is of course shared between those models, and this helps immensely to reduce the cost.

Could Honda justify the same though? I4 600/V4 750/I4 1k? Seems a bit screwy. The new 1200cc V4, if it is making the projected power, will absolutely replace the 1100xx as well as the current VFR, assuming the weight stays comparable. Remember - the blackbird was about 560 wet. The current Hayabusa weighs about 570 wet, for reference.

I want it to work. I'm sure that's obvious. Honda says that they want to shift toward a more V4 oriented future. But to what extent? That's what I'd like to know. Would a supersport oriented 750cc V4 work? There are a lot of guys on these forums working to take their viffers in that exact direction... Drop the weight, change forks / shocks to improve handling and so on... Again, part of me wants to say yes. It would work. There are those out there who do *not* want the 600cc bike, due to a lack of torque, but also do not feel it necessary to step up to a 1k. Again, look at the success of the GSXR750.

Could Honda scale the 1200cc V4 down and attack such a segment?

Argue with me here. Discussion is good stuff.

Quote

...... Argue with me here. Discussion is good stuff.
You're oogly and yo' mama dresses you funny...

[image: View Post]Kestrel, on Aug 13 2009, 11:14 AM, said:

Innovation used to be Honda's strong point... Things have been quite bland over the last few years... If you're truly a fan of the V4, then take a moment to appreciate the heritage... The endurance races... Isle of Man... and so on. It isn't the current image of the VFR that moves us... Getting heavier and heavier as the years pile on... It is the memories of 86/87.. The RC30. The 400cc variants.. The RC45. The NR750. Those bikes had soul. Honda broke free of the mold, and succeeded with the V4 when the competition stuck with the standard inline.

Execs have said that the new V4 is the first to come, as the company aims to shift back toward the V4 roots and differentiate itself from the competition. I can only hope a sportbike is included in such plans.

You're not the only one. Good post. I believe that a well-done 600 V4 supersport would be a dominant force in racing and that would translate into sales of street bikes. The CBR 600 is a fine bike. I have an '09 sitting in the garage. But it isn't really distinguishable from the competition. A V4 and good marketing would change that.

Dirk

Hey Kestrel.....Great Post......only gonna' argue with You on one point......The Cruiser Market is here to stay (Cruisers have withstood the test of time... ;p ).....it is the Way Vast Percentage of Bikes sold in the USA, and growing worldwide. Even the Chinese and Japanese are starting to buy Cruisers. All of the other Bike Types together barely put a nick in the Cruiser Market in the USA. Harley Davidson's problems are not slumped Cruiser Market Sales, it's Cruiser Market "Market Share Slippage" because of bad Loan Practices, and a younger Cruiser buyer wanting some changes, while the Company continues to play to it's "Longer-in-Tooth" crowd with Old, Traditional Designs that still even include air-cooled engines. Yes, I like Cruisers, but.....I just like all Motorcycles and Scooters..."most" all brands, types, models........I enjoy ridin' em' all.......... :fing02: :beer:

[image: View Post]skuuter trash, on Aug 14 2009, 11:02 AM, said:

Hey Kestrel.....Great Post......only gonna' argue with You on one point......The Cruiser Market is here to stay (Cruisers have withstood the test of time... ;p ).....it is the Way Vast Percentage of Bikes sold in the USA, and growing worldwide. Even the Chinese and Japanese are starting to buy Cruisers. All of the other Bike Types together barely put a nick in the Cruiser Market in the USA. Harley Davidson's problems are not slumped Cruiser Market Sales, it's Cruiser Market "Market Share Slippage" because of bad Loan Practices, and a younger Cruiser buyer wanting some changes, while the Company continues to play to it's "Longer-in-Tooth" crowd with Old, Traditional Designs that still even include air-cooled engines. Yes, I like Cruisers, but.....I just like all Motorcycles and Scooters..."most" all brands, types, models........I enjoy ridin' em' all.......... :fing02: :beer:


A lot of the cruiser market comes from the baby boomer generation. Right now, the USA's population graph has a bulge in the middle, thinning out toward the bottom as well as at the top. That same population chart tends to hold true in most developed countries world wide. Here's a couple charts for grins... Keep in mind, the USA's last census was back in 2000... The chart has thinned even more at the bottom as the birthrate continues to drop. Japan's is arguably much worse. They're got a helluva problem on their hands, but that's for another discussion...

[image: Posted Image]

[image: Posted Image]

Right now, all of those baby boomers between 40-50 are the one's with somewhat disposable income. They're directly responsible for the rise in cruiser sales during the last few years. Those are the bikes they always wanted as kids, and are finally able to purchase some 20-30 years later. The same will not hold true for today's younger generation. Our tastes are slightly different, and I'd argue that most of my peers have no interest in that style of motorcycle. I'd also argue that it isn't age related as much as a generational thing. Such an "image" isn't nearly as popular with younger folk today than those with a couple more years on them.

Here's a graph of just the United States' motorcycle sales...

[image: Posted Image]

The market share currently looks something like this...

Quote

Motorcycles
Harley-Davidson 28%
Honda 25%
Yamaha 17%
Suzuki 13%
Kawasaki 11%
KTM 2%
BMW 1%
Triumph 1%
Ducati 1%

Factor that in with this...

Quote

Demographics of a New Bike Rider

Age Gender
20 years and younger 1% Male 90%
21-25 7% Female 10%
26-30 9%
31-40 22%
41-50 30%
51-60 23%
61-70 7%
71 and older 1%

Again - look closely at that age bracket... The boost in cruiser sales has largely come from the exact generation of individuals I pointed out above. I don't need numbers to prove that, either. Take a look at all the bikes you see on the roads right now. Not hard to figure out what is most popular, no?

To borrow some more information...

Quote

The numbers aren't looking good for the first six months of 2009 compared to the same time period in 2008. Sources tell us that street bike sales for the first two quarters of the 2009 year so far totaled 212,130, down 46% from the same time period in 2008. Dual sport sales are down 47%; off-road motorcycle sales down 37% and scooter sales are down a whopping 67% from the first 6 months of 2008.

That's how the market stands right now, as of Q2 2009. I lived in Japan for a year between 2006 and 2007. Scooters *everywhere...* Believe it or not, when I arrived back in the USA late 2007, I was shocked to actually see scooters on roads in the USA. As we can all remember, gas prices were beginning to shoot up during that timeframe. Looking at those sales numbers above, notice that scooter sales have dropped 67% since the previous year, the heaviest drop out of any segment. Reason? Fuel prices have gone back down. That's the reason the segment rose in the first place, and also precisely why it dropped back down. When fuel prices rise back up again, and they will, I predict the scooter segment to rise once more. Absolutely. I will not disagree with you on that. It is definitely here to stay, and the market for it will continue to increase as long as fuel prices continue to rise. I've got nothing against 'em either ;) Fun as heck to bomb around town on.

Back to the cruiser portion though. Sales have indeed risen slightly in Japan, but the vast majority of bikes sold in Japan and Europe are standards, not cruisers, although the VFR800 has been flying off the floors in Europe for the last few years.

If the US economy continues its downward spiral, expect cruiser sales to drop dramatically. As it stands, HD offerings are entirely overpriced. As the bikes do not tend to change much, the used market is absolutely saturated at this point. Folks bought them expecting the bikes to rise in value, and they've unfortunately received quite the wakeup call.

One more thing to quote... This is *just* the USA btw.

Quote

2007 Totals 2008 Totals Unit Change % Change
Dual Sport 36,837 45,250 8,413 +22.8%
Off Road 209,739 146,779 -62,960 -30.0%
Street Bikes 647,633 611,133 -36,500 -5.6%
Scooters 54,255 76,748 22,493 +41.5%
Totals 948,464 879,910 -68,554 -7.2%

My prediction? Baby boomer generation stops spending, and cruiser sales drop. As fuel prices climb, scooter sales rise. Sportbike sales will remain the same, always toward the younger age bracket, but standards & adventure dual sport sales are going to take the place of cruisers once this generation's riders move into the later age brackets. They'll want a different, more relaxed motorcycle... But they're also used to a LOT more speed than the generation's of yesterday. You'll see more big bore touring bikes as well as a continued trend towards the adventure segment.

The VAST majority of cruiser sales take place in the US market... But we are SMALL in the world market.

[image: Posted Image]

If our economy doesn't recover, cruiser sales will drop dramatically. If it does recover quickly, cruiser sales will slowly fade out, replaced by what I specified above...

That's my guess, anyway ;)

Interesting data, observations and predictions, Kestrel. What I see locally everyday mirrors much of what you posted. Mostly older folks on cruisers, 20-somethings on sportbikes, mix of men/women and older/younger on scooters, but few people on standards.

IMO standards don't sell well here b/c too many Americans are sheep, esp. the casual motorcyclists. Unless they're hardcore touring or doing multiple track days per year, I think it's hard to argue with middle-weight standards (like the Honda 599,
Suz. SV650 and Yam. FZ6) as being the most comfortable, affordable and versatile motorcycles for everyday riding. But that's not what people here buy, because many bikes are bought as toys. We all know HDs are overpriced for what you get when compared to Big 4 cruisers, but many people are buying the name and into the Harley culture. Sportbikes are not ideal for most people, but many young riders are buying into the image.

Steering this back to the new 1200cc V4, I don't predict huge sale #s for this bike in the U.S, as most people here who want a big, very high-powered sportbike will continue to buy what their buddies ride: 'Busas and ZX-14s. The new V4 may have the same or even better power, etc. as those bikes but I don't think the typical 'Busa or Ninja buyer will be interested, b/c it's "different". Baaaa.

Regardless of what people buy and why, I'd love to see more of them become serious and trained motorcyclists, rather than treat these terrific bikes like toys only to be ridden on perfect sunny days with their friends a few times each summer.

That's my $0.02 anyway.

[image: View Post]Kestrel, on Aug 14 2009, 09:51 AM, said:

Right now, all of those baby boomers between 40-50 are the one's with somewhat disposable income.
All those boomers between 45-50? (pre-1964) 40-44 are Gen X. :warranty: :warranty: :cool:

And to add another twist ... companies are slowing laying off the older, well-paid boomers.

Ask me how I know. :mad:

E-Ticket

I teach new riders almost every week and no matter what the age, cruiser riders, or those that want to get a cruiser, out number every other segment in my classes.

[image: View Post]rad, on Aug 14 2009, 03:04 PM, said:

I teach new riders almost every week and no matter what the age, cruiser riders, or those that want to get a cruiser, out number every other segment in my classes.

I wonder if that's more a reflection of how people outside the sport, see motorcycling? Every time I tell a non-rider that I am a motorcyclist, they start talking about Harleys. From outside, cruisers are the face of motorcycling. People don't distinguish between different kinds of bikes. We're all bikers to them. Bikers dress like pirates and ride around on hogs.

When I first took up motorcycling, I waited several months to get into an MSF class. While I was waiting, I had a great time selecting the prettiest fringed jacket I could find. I didn't know that there were many different types of motorcyclists, and that I would turn out to belong to a category I had never even been aware of before I plunged into the sport.

Not all cruiser riders are noobs - some are experienced riders who have stuck with cruisers because they suit them well. But almost all noobs are cruiser riders - because they don't yet know there's anything else out there.

[image: View Post]elizilla, on Aug 14 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

Not all cruiser riders are noobs - some are experienced riders who have stuck with cruisers because they suit them well. But almost all noobs are cruiser riders - because they don't yet know there's anything else out there.

That's not entirely true, there's a whole segment of noobs on R1's and GSXR's...

[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Aug 14 2009, 04:49 PM, said:

[image: View Post]elizilla, on Aug 14 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

Not all cruiser riders are noobs - some are experienced riders who have stuck with cruisers because they suit them well. But almost all noobs are cruiser riders - because they don't yet know there's anything else out there.

That's not entirely true, there's a whole segment of noobs on R1's and GSXR's...


I blame the media, and cable show's like OCC, the bike build off shows and even superbikes. Although superbikes (the show) does do some stuff for safe riding awareness, the way they depict stunting to be so easy and so cool makes alot of the younger guys that work for me have the wrong idea about the way motorcyclists should behave in public.

On that note I'm tired of getting into motorcycling discussions with "noobs" who are relentless in thier opinions that 600's don't have enough power for a beginers bike.

I always suggest to them to start with something cosmetically damaged and cheep, so when they drop it it won't make them cry when they pay to fix it, and if they never do. they can probably get back out of it what they put into it if they sell it when they are ready to move onto something nicer.

btw I was just lucky when I bought my first bike, as it was an 86 VF500F for $1000 in '01

[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Aug 14 2009, 05:49 PM, said:

[image: View Post]elizilla, on Aug 14 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

Not all cruiser riders are noobs - some are experienced riders who have stuck with cruisers because they suit them well. But almost all noobs are cruiser riders - because they don't yet know there's anything else out there.

That's not entirely true, there's a whole segment of noobs on R1's and GSXR's...


OK, let's qualify that and say "most noobs who take MSF are cruiser riders." :)

Quote

standards & adventure dual sport sales are going to take the place of cruisers once this generation's riders move into the later age brackets. They'll want a different, more relaxed motorcycle... But they're also used to a LOT more speed than the generation's of yesterday.

I agree, very astute observations there Kestrel. You make a lot of good points that haven't occurred to me.

On the standards/adventures, I completely agree, but I think one of the driving forces behind this (esp. for dualsports) is the ever-increasing sophistication and deployment of speed surveillance gear. The only way around this eventually will be to hit the dirt (so maybe we should all invest in companies like Oneal, AXO etc. :) )

So, while I'm away with the fairies here's my prediction for the ideal bike for Gen X within a decade - sub-200kg 150hp dual sports with switchable maps to de-tune for dirt/rain, electronically variable suspension that can be stiffened for fast tarmac work, variable tool-less bar height adjustment, optional larger fuel tank with dry-break tool-less fitting system, modular luggage system. This is definitely possible today; surely there's a market for a bike like this? Maybe all these start-up superbike manufacturers should be thinking in more practical terms.

Really, if Honda HAS been reading our wish lists for the new VFR over the years and developed this new 1200 V4 based on what the thought we want - they must be scratching their heads if reading this stuff now...

[image: View Post]Kestrel, on Aug 13 2009, 01:46 PM, said:

If I had a choice? I'd say Honda should market the following bikes...

V4 Sport/Supersport - 700-750 CCs

V4 Sport Tour - Current Spyshotted V4 1200cc

V4 Tour - ST1300 Replacement, using a detuned 1200cc engine... Drop the overall top hp and add some torque.
So - we've got a problem... In that case, how do you proceed? Can Honda justify two types of SS lines of bikes? V4 and I4? That is of course where this get tough. It works for Triumph, as they are solely focused on the triple. That was a new market for them, and it didn't take sales away from anything else. But for Honda? Is there are market for that sort of thing? So close to the 600?

I want it to work. I'm sure that's obvious. Honda says that they want to shift toward a more V4 oriented future. But to what extent? That's what I'd like to know. Would a supersport oriented 750cc V4 work? There are a lot of guys on these forums working to take their viffers in that exact direction... Drop the weight, change forks / shocks to improve handling and so on... Again, part of me wants to say yes. It would work. There are those out there who do *not* want the 600cc bike, due to a lack of torque, but also do not feel it necessary to step up to a 1k. Again, look at the success of the GSXR750.

Could Honda scale the 1200cc V4 down and attack such a segment?

Argue with me here. Discussion is good stuff.

Some interesting thoughts here...

I think you nailed it in an earlier post: Honda needs to differentiate itself from the competition.

Somehow, I feel that they don't really want to "compete" with Japan Inc.�, and the cut-throat incremental one-upsmanship and slim profit margins that define those markets.
I think it pisses Honda off that Harley can sell overweight, underperforming old-tech cruisers for a premium. In the sportbike market, I think it pisses them off that Ducati sells it's bikes for much more than Honda gets. Same with BMW in the Touring Bike market.

How do the other manufacturers do it? Brand exclusivity - and Honda wants it in the worst way.
How will they get it? I think, by returning to their V4 roots with a whole new lineup of bikes.

I don't see two lines of Supersport bikes. I say scrap the I4 line of CBR's and roll out the V4's. We know Honda is the engine supplier in the new (600cc) Moto-2 GP class. I don't know what that engine configuration is going to be, but I think they would do well to make it a V4, and differentiate themselves from World Supersport. Or maybe it will the "next big thing" in WSS??

In Superbike racing, Yamaha has it's 90-degree-crank R-1, Kawi is rumored to be coming out with a Big-Bang ZX-10R. A V4 Honda Superbike is a no-brainer.
Let Suzuki keep the I4.

In the touring segment, it looks like we're getting a 1200cc V4 bike. Maybe they will also make a 750cc V4 all-rounder, and take the VFR back to it's roots.

One can only hope.

I still want a bike that can openly compete with the Busa and ZX-14 as next year I will be in the market to get back into racing and as of right now it's pretty much down to one of those two.

George

[image: View Post]Kestrel, on Aug 13 2009, 01:46 PM, said:

(Paraphrasing) Triumph is selling Street Triple 675's like "hotcakes"...why doesn't Honda do something like this?

Quote

The market share currently looks something like this...

Motorcycles
Harley-Davidson 28%
Honda 25%
Yamaha 17%
Suzuki 13%
Kawasaki 11%
KTM 2%
BMW 1%
Triumph 1%
Ducati 1%




So. presumably, the Street Triple 675 represents a small percentage of a 1% market share. And, you feel Honda should spend millions on R&D/tooling/etc. to attack that tiny market? Uhhhh, okay. Maybe they can take away some of the resources they spend on an actual HUGE market share that they consistently dominate: 600cc and 1000cc sport bikes.

Honda built an awesome naked bike and nobody bought it: the 919. They could have put ANY engine in it (V4 included) and people still would not have bought it. They would have bought a Speed Triple, a Monster, or Tuono, etc.

I hear ya, we'd all like to see a couple new V4's, but why would Honda or anyone else build a 750? 750's were built because Superbikes were 750's. Now they are 1000cc. so that is what people buy!

If I wanted a 100hp/55lpft bike, I just buy a 600rr which has considerable more horsepower (playing Honda marketing devils advocate here).


The glory days of the RC30, RC45, and NR750 were not that glorious. Well, unless you could bring between 30,000 and 70,000 dollars to the table!! I've seen even fewer examples of these bikes on the road than Street Triple 675's.......... :biggrin:


Also, while I'd agree the custom chopper market is going bust, the cruiser market will always be very strong.

As for the next generation in the US, let's teach them NOT to buy toys on maxed out credit cards.

:biggrin:

Also, while I'd agree the custom chopper market is going bust, the cruiser market will always be very strong.
[/quote]


I agree. I have had five bikes in the last 7 years. It's a hobby for me and my riding is short trips mostly for fun. Although I look forward to cruising on some long trips, I just don't have the time yet. But for short trips I think cruisers are the most comfortable but once the trips get to be an hour or so, touring bikes win out.

If I had a say in it, I would recommend Honda take the VFR up to 1000cc, keep the seat low and the bars high,(compared to the CBRs), and I'll buy one right away. Otherwise it looks like I'll be heading for a K1300S later this year. I also think going to a shaft drive on the VFR would be a good idea.

Just my 2 cents.


97 VFR
09 HD FLHX Streetglide

[image: View Post]Dutchy, on Aug 18 2009, 03:49 PM, said:

As for the next generation in the US, let's teach them NOT to buy toys on maxed out credit cards.

:biggrin:


I only buy toys on maxed out credit cards if they throw in a box of 12 gauge shells and a bottle of Jack Daniels. :cool:

You must be Brown81 from BARF? Guess who :laugh: :laugh:

[image: View Post]Brown81, on Aug 18 2009, 06:26 PM, said:

So. presumably, the Street Triple 675 represents a small percentage of a 1% market share. And, you feel Honda should spend millions on R&D/tooling/etc. to attack that tiny market? Uhhhh, okay. Maybe they can take away some of the resources they spend on an actual HUGE market share that they consistently dominate: 600cc and 1000cc sport bikes.

It isn't just Triumph who was successful with making a larger bore 600CC. Look at the Kwacker 636. The "cheater" engine made that bike quite successful. I don't consider the 675 as in a different market share than the regular 600 supersports. It competes head on, and in the last few years has won. Mags rave about the extra torque that the triple and additional displacement provides. Won bike of the year when it was released. Triumph provided an alternative to the Big 4, and it has done well.

Honda built an awesome naked bike and nobody bought it: the 919. They could have put ANY engine in it (V4 included) and people still would not have bought it. They would have bought a Speed Triple, a Monster, or Tuono, etc.

Unfortunately, the standard market is nowhere as popular here in the USA as it is in Europe, where riders seem to have a bit more common sense and appreciate a compromise between a full on sportbike and a more relaxed touring bike. The 919 was a decent bike, but again... That sucker was devoid of any soul. Nothing about it sets it apart. It is a fantastic appliance bike, but those don't sell too well. The Tuono, Monster, and Speed Triples have got a helluva lot more soul in comparison. If Aprilia puts the RSV4's engine into a Tuono, you'd better believe I'm going to find a way to get one into my garage... Unless Honda can arrange something first. A lot of guys here may very well do the same.

I hear ya, we'd all like to see a couple new V4's, but why would Honda or anyone else build a 750? 750's were built because Superbikes were 750's. Now they are 1000cc. so that is what people buy!

A valid point... But there are still plenty of riders out there who prefer the 750 as a good compromise. I still think a V4 750 superbike would differentiate itself enough from the CBR line... It isn't like the GSXR, where you simply scaled the I4 engine up through the range. A V4 would offer a completely different experience from the traditional CBR. The technology would be there. Borrow from the V4 project, and borrow technology from the new CBR1k and recent year 600. Chain drive, lightweight, scaled down engine etc etc. Would they sell as many as a typical CBR600? If it were much more sport oriented? Maybe.

If I wanted a 100hp/55lpft bike, I just buy a 600rr which has considerable more horsepower (playing Honda marketing devils advocate here).

Granted the VFR made that sort of power years ago, another 10 years of technology should make a significant difference. 700-750ccs and the V4 configuration should be able to put out a healthy 120 hp without too much stress. Keep it under 400 wet with decent suspension components and it would do well. That's exactly the kind of bike I'm aiming to buy, anyway.

The glory days of the RC30, RC45, and NR750 were not that glorious. Well, unless you could bring between 30,000 and 70,000 dollars to the table!! I've seen even fewer examples of these bikes on the road than Street Triple 675's.......... :biggrin:

I'd argue that the RC30/45 had quite a glorious history ;D Should Honda have continued with the V4 rather than the RC51, I wonder what would have happened.. Oh well. The NR750? Not so much ;) But if nothing else, it *was* somewhat responsible for the Ducati 916, and that in itself is a fantastic accomplishment ;)

Lastly,

One of my primary worries is that... With all the techno-wizardry, cylinders dropping etc etc etc that might be on the V4 1200, I have worries about that sort of thing scaling down. That isn't something you'd put into a 700-750cc bike... Not if you want to make it price competitive.

That said, Honda has again re-emphasized that they want to take the company into a more V4 oriented direction. I'd be all for differentiation in the marketplace... But I'm still not exactly sure what direction they mean.

Oh, hey dude! :biggrin:


Well, you make good points. To be sure, my favorite bikes were the RC 750's. It's just they they were cost prohibitive to the Joe Six Pack (to borrow from Crazy Sarah), which is what I mean by less than glorious. Sure they had glory galore for those that could get one. The NR was like Desmosedici we have today: unattainable.

If I had my druthers, it would be a V4 800cc to replace my VFR750. Something very sporty but a hair more use-able than a supersport. A bit more tour-able. I feel the 4th gen VFR has everything anyone could want excepting modern suspension and modern aesthetic appeal. Something where the all the valves and all the cylinders all work all the time.

Just give me the same thing I have now only good looking, with good brakes, adj suspension, and 135-145 hp. It would be a dream come true!

Unfortunately, I just can't imagine it ever happening. :angry:

[image: View Post]Kestrel, on Aug 19 2009, 02:41 PM, said:

You must be Brown81 from BARF? Guess who :laugh: :laugh:

[image: View Post]Brown81, on Aug 18 2009, 06:26 PM, said:

So. presumably, the Street Triple 675 represents a small percentage of a 1% market share. And, you feel Honda should spend millions on R&D/tooling/etc. to attack that tiny market? Uhhhh, okay. Maybe they can take away some of the resources they spend on an actual HUGE market share that they consistently dominate: 600cc and 1000cc sport bikes.

It isn't just Triumph who was successful with making a larger bore 600CC. Look at the Kwacker 636. The "cheater" engine made that bike quite successful. I don't consider the 675 as in a different market share than the regular 600 supersports. It competes head on, and in the last few years has won. Mags rave about the extra torque that the triple and additional displacement provides. Won bike of the year when it was released. Triumph provided an alternative to the Big 4, and it has done well.

Honda built an awesome naked bike and nobody bought it: the 919. They could have put ANY engine in it (V4 included) and people still would not have bought it. They would have bought a Speed Triple, a Monster, or Tuono, etc.

Unfortunately, the standard market is nowhere as popular here in the USA as it is in Europe, where riders seem to have a bit more common sense and appreciate a compromise between a full on sportbike and a more relaxed touring bike. The 919 was a decent bike, but again... That sucker was devoid of any soul. Nothing about it sets it apart. It is a fantastic appliance bike, but those don't sell too well. The Tuono, Monster, and Speed Triples have got a helluva lot more soul in comparison. If Aprilia puts the RSV4's engine into a Tuono, you'd better believe I'm going to find a way to get one into my garage... Unless Honda can arrange something first. A lot of guys here may very well do the same.

I hear ya, we'd all like to see a couple new V4's, but why would Honda or anyone else build a 750? 750's were built because Superbikes were 750's. Now they are 1000cc. so that is what people buy!

A valid point... But there are still plenty of riders out there who prefer the 750 as a good compromise. I still think a V4 750 superbike would differentiate itself enough from the CBR line... It isn't like the GSXR, where you simply scaled the I4 engine up through the range. A V4 would offer a completely different experience from the traditional CBR. The technology would be there. Borrow from the V4 project, and borrow technology from the new CBR1k and recent year 600. Chain drive, lightweight, scaled down engine etc etc. Would they sell as many as a typical CBR600? If it were much more sport oriented? Maybe.

If I wanted a 100hp/55lpft bike, I just buy a 600rr which has considerable more horsepower (playing Honda marketing devils advocate here).

Granted the VFR made that sort of power years ago, another 10 years of technology should make a significant difference. 700-750ccs and the V4 configuration should be able to put out a healthy 120 hp without too much stress. Keep it under 400 wet with decent suspension components and it would do well. That's exactly the kind of bike I'm aiming to buy, anyway.

The glory days of the RC30, RC45, and NR750 were not that glorious. Well, unless you could bring between 30,000 and 70,000 dollars to the table!! I've seen even fewer examples of these bikes on the road than Street Triple 675's.......... :biggrin:

I'd argue that the RC30/45 had quite a glorious history ;D Should Honda have continued with the V4 rather than the RC51, I wonder what would have happened.. Oh well. The NR750? Not so much ;) But if nothing else, it *was* somewhat responsible for the Ducati 916, and that in itself is a fantastic accomplishment ;)

[image: View Post]Kestrel, on Aug 19 2009, 02:44 PM, said:

Lastly,

One of my primary worries is that... With all the techno-wizardry, cylinders dropping etc etc etc that might be on the V4 1200, I have worries about that sort of thing scaling down. That isn't something you'd put into a 700-750cc bike... Not if you want to make it price competitive.

That said, Honda has again re-emphasized that they want to take the company into a more V4 oriented direction. I'd be all for differentiation in the marketplace... But I'm still not exactly sure what direction they mean.

One bit of good news buried in all the pre-run PR stuff: ".... the new VFR engine is dimenisonally smaller than the existing VFR ...."

If so, that does bode well for a sporty version. But as we know, only time will tell. Or Oct. 8th as it is.

Cheers! E-Ticket

[image: View Post]JBAXX, on Aug 14 2009, 11:15 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Kestrel, on Aug 13 2009, 01:46 PM, said:

If I had a choice? I'd say Honda should market the following bikes...

V4 Sport/Supersport - 700-750 CCs

V4 Sport Tour - Current Spyshotted V4 1200cc

V4 Tour - ST1300 Replacement, using a detuned 1200cc engine... Drop the overall top hp and add some torque.
So - we've got a problem... In that case, how do you proceed? Can Honda justify two types of SS lines of bikes? V4 and I4? That is of course where this get tough. It works for Triumph, as they are solely focused on the triple. That was a new market for them, and it didn't take sales away from anything else. But for Honda? Is there are market for that sort of thing? So close to the 600?

I want it to work. I'm sure that's obvious. Honda says that they want to shift toward a more V4 oriented future. But to what extent? That's what I'd like to know. Would a supersport oriented 750cc V4 work? There are a lot of guys on these forums working to take their viffers in that exact direction... Drop the weight, change forks / shocks to improve handling and so on... Again, part of me wants to say yes. It would work. There are those out there who do *not* want the 600cc bike, due to a lack of torque, but also do not feel it necessary to step up to a 1k. Again, look at the success of the GSXR750.

Could Honda scale the 1200cc V4 down and attack such a segment?

Argue with me here. Discussion is good stuff.

Some interesting thoughts here...

I think you nailed it in an earlier post: Honda needs to differentiate itself from the competition.

Somehow, I feel that they don't really want to "compete" with Japan Inc.�, and the cut-throat incremental one-upsmanship and slim profit margins that define those markets.
I think it pisses Honda off that Harley can sell overweight, underperforming old-tech cruisers for a premium. In the sportbike market, I think it pisses them off that Ducati sells it's bikes for much more than Honda gets. Same with BMW in the Touring Bike market.

How do the other manufacturers do it? Brand exclusivity - and Honda wants it in the worst way.
How will they get it? I think, by returning to their V4 roots with a whole new lineup of bikes.

I don't see two lines of Supersport bikes. I say scrap the I4 line of CBR's and roll out the V4's. We know Honda is the engine supplier in the new (600cc) Moto-2 GP class. I don't know what that engine configuration is going to be, but I think they would do well to make it a V4, and differentiate themselves from World Supersport. Or maybe it will the "next big thing" in WSS??

In Superbike racing, Yamaha has it's 90-degree-crank R-1, Kawi is rumored to be coming out with a Big-Bang ZX-10R. A V4 Honda Superbike is a no-brainer.
Let Suzuki keep the I4.

In the touring segment, it looks like we're getting a 1200cc V4 bike. Maybe they will also make a 750cc V4 all-rounder, and take the VFR back to it's roots.

One can only hope.


SO Very well said. I had hoped that the new VFR was going to be a sub-1000cc rational sportbike with hard-luggage optional (and lighter and simpler than my 6th gen). The sporting V4 was not invented by Honda, but Honda has a great racing history and knowledge base with the design, and I think that it would be something that that Honda would want to keep going.