Honda Announces Dual-clutch manual transmission
and the tidbit that affects us VFR folks the most is this quote at the end of the first paragraph
Honda said:
A new VFR large-displacement sport bike equipped with the new transmission will be released in Europe and North America in 2010, with sales to commence in Japan at a later date.
Now, when are we gonna see what it really looks like?
Edit to add
Found a video about it on Facebook, not sure if its available to non-FB folks or not.
V4 fansite video - Facebook
Cool, seems awfully complicated, but cool. At least there's a manual mode.
Looks like the oil filter might at least be accessable. Not sure what to think on the auto tranny.
I have to admit that paddle shift would be a lot of fun..... sorry.... dont kill me.
Nice find. Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like the new vfr gives you 3 choices full manual, push button manual and fully automatic.
Other things we can see is the instrament panel. Which looks nice. Rpm limit of about 11- 11500 rpms. H.I.S.S ingnition system which I've heard of before but can't recall its significance. Gear selection indicator.
Things I didn't see. avg or current mpg readings or readouts such as tire preasure
Also to add the bike looks really small, about the same size as the 6th gen
[image: View Post]tx_vfr, on Sep 8 2009, 10:34 AM, said:
Found a video about it on Facebook, not sure if its available to non-FB folks or not.
V4 fansite video - Facebook
Cool! HondaMatic 2.0 !
The thumb shifter does look pretty fun... Just like my mountain bike. Not only would my passenger dig the smooth shifting but just think, you can ride on the balls of your feet full time. Nice.
WTF no cup holders or DVD player. :(
[image: View Post]silkysmooth, on Sep 8 2009, 04:28 PM, said:
WTF no cup holders or DVD player. :(
Honda knows they have to leave some things for us to farkle with ;p
I guess the advantage would be that it makes the bike accessable to more riders, as some are intimidated by having to coordinate your hands and feet with the clutch, throttle and gear lever to ride a motorcycle.
Would be nice if they made a standard model without all that gee whiz gagetry for those of us who prefer the standard operation at all times, and would rather not pay for all of the extra complexity of the auto trans options.
[image: View Post]johnmark101, on Sep 8 2009, 11:34 AM, said:
I guess the advantage would be that it makes the bike accessable to more riders, as some are intimidated by having to coordinate your hands and feet with the clutch, throttle and gear lever to ride a motorcycle.
Would be nice if they made a standard model without all that gee whiz gagetry for those of us who prefer the standard operation at all times, and would rather not pay for all of the extra complexity of the auto trans options.
Not only extra cost but all that gadgets adds weight which is my main grip anyway.
Are we sure this isn't the new ST1300???
[image: View Post]elevation, on Sep 8 2009, 04:39 PM, said:
Are we sure this isn't the new ST1300???
it looks pretty small with a non adjustable windscreen to be the ST replacement
I think the main question is going to be, how reliable is it? With all the tech going into this bike if it brakes it is going to be expensive to repair. Any quality issues equal to or less than the 6th gen will not be acceptable to me. I will defintely be one whe waits a year or two after it comes out to see how the bike holds up.
Darn, still no 7th gear :(
I'd definitely be open to trying this new beast.
As long as it is priced right and not too heavy. Something tells me it will be out of reach though, with all the gadgets and all.
Honda presentation on the Dual Clutch transmission
The link points to an executable file (self extractring flash presentation) so some of you will not be able to access it due to security reasons.
For those that can't see the FB video but can watch youtube vids:
VW has been using this technology for years now in their cars. AFAIK it is a very reliable unit, if costly to manufacture. I rented an EOS to take a trip to Northern California a couple of years ago, and can honestly say the system in that car worked amazingly well. Would definitely select it over a normal automatic in a car, but still not sure I'd want it in a VFR.
Cool video in action:
Looks like it's an electric over hydrolic control. This means your charging system or battery condition may affect your ability to shift. Probably why they have the manual shift option.
I'm not a big fan of electronic wisardry. But if they do it right and it works, it does look like a nice way to shift once you get used to it.
You're lookin' at the same thing as my DN-01 Folks....Fully Automatic, Sport Automatic, Electric Manual Shifts.....I told You it was comin' to other models "eventually"......."Hi-Tech" and the "Future"......... :rolleyes: :fing02:
After watching the video all I can say is the pilot needs to learn how to shift. :rolleyes:
It looks like a cool concept but like the automatic did for the cager industry it will open the doors to yet more people who shouldn't be allowed any where near something with a motor attached to it. You think motorcyclists have a bad reputation now wait until all those Torque fans get a hold of a bike they can actually "drive".
And yet I still find myself attracted to the paddle shifting concept. I would test drive this. :fing02:
[image: View Post]vanion2, on Sep 8 2009, 11:47 AM, said:
After watching the video all I can say is the pilot needs to learn how to shift. :rolleyes:
It looks like a cool concept but like the automatic did for the cager industry it will open the doors to yet more people who shouldn't be allowed any where near something with a motor attached to it. You think motorcyclists have a bad reputation now wait until all those Torque fans get a hold of a bike they can actually "drive".
And yet I still find myself attracted to the paddle shifting concept. I would test drive this. :fing02:
It makes for a really nice all-day ride............... :fing02: :beer:
[image: View Post]skuuter trash, on Sep 8 2009, 12:38 PM, said:
You're lookin' at the same thing as my DN-01 Folks....Fully Automatic, Sport Automatic, Electric Manual Shifts.....I told You it was comin' to other models "eventually"......."Hi-Tech" and the "Future"......... :rolleyes: :fing02:
I didn't think the DN-01 had the manual/manual (tradtional) option... least the one I was lookin over this past weekend didn't have that.
[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Sep 8 2009, 06:36 PM, said:
HISS is a keyless ignition system. You have to have the key in proximity to the bike, like in your pocket.
HISS comes standard on Euro 6th gens (and other Hondas) for quite some time now and it is not a keyless system, rather an anti theft device (immobiliser). You can only start the bike with keys that are (electronically) recognised by the ECU.
In the "Auto" portions of the video...where did the clutch lever go? It was very visible in the manual mode, but I didn't see it in the auto modes.
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on Sep 8 2009, 12:08 PM, said:
In the "Auto" portions of the video...where did the clutch lever go? It was very visible in the manual mode, but I didn't see it in the auto modes.
two different bikes is what I gather. I'm not sure what to think yet. If it is truly a benefit to the rider great, but the marketing guys really scare me with this idea that it is now a more accessible sports bike. The last thing we need is a bike that is more accessible to ride with a 1.2 L engine!
[image: View Post]skuuter trash, on Sep 8 2009, 09:38 AM, said:
You're lookin' at the same thing as my DN-01 Folks....Fully Automatic, Sport Automatic, Electric Manual Shifts.....I told You it was comin' to other models "eventually"......."Hi-Tech" and the "Future"......... :rolleyes: :fing02:
Same concept, different execution. The DN-01 uses a CVT transmission AFAIK. The gear positions in a CVT transmission in "manual mode" are pre-selected by Honda, but they're not actually separate gears like the DSG AKA Dual Clutch.
I've driven an Audi with a CVT transmission running in its normal variable mode, definitely not for me. The engine RPM hardly changes with speed, so it basically drones...
Very efficient transmission though from what I've read, nearly infinite gearing does make sense.
I'm really starting to like the new VFR though. I think it will be perfect for its intended purpose. If I can afford one, then I can turn my 5th gen into a track only bike!
[image: View Post]TX_CLG, on Sep 8 2009, 11:24 AM, said:
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on Sep 8 2009, 12:08 PM, said:
In the "Auto" portions of the video...where did the clutch lever go? It was very visible in the manual mode, but I didn't see it in the auto modes.
two different bikes is what I gather. I'm not sure what to think yet. If it is truly a benefit to the rider great, but the marketing guys really scare me with this idea that it is now a more accessible sports bike. The last thing we need is a bike that is more accessible to ride with a 1.2 L engine!
Yep, notice the video starts off with a banner 'manual transmission vs. dual clutch transmission'.. I think you get the manual trans on the 'sport' model and the auto trans on the 'touring' model, not all three modes on one bike. Everything is pointing to two new models being released.
[image: View Post]kostritzer, on Sep 8 2009, 01:33 PM, said:
[image: View Post]skuuter trash, on Sep 8 2009, 09:38 AM, said:
You're lookin' at the same thing as my DN-01 Folks....Fully Automatic, Sport Automatic, Electric Manual Shifts.....I told You it was comin' to other models "eventually"......."Hi-Tech" and the "Future"......... :rolleyes: :fing02:
Same concept, different execution. The DN-01 uses a CVT transmission AFAIK. The gear positions in a CVT transmission in "manual mode" are pre-selected by Honda, but they're not actually separate gears like the DSG AKA Dual Clutch.
I've driven an Audi with a CVT transmission running in its normal variable mode, definitely not for me. The engine RPM hardly changes with speed, so it basically drones...
Very efficient transmission though from what I've read, nearly infinite gearing does make sense.
I'm really starting to like the new VFR though. I think it will be perfect for its intended purpose. If I can afford one, then I can turn my 5th gen into a track only bike!
Same here....soundin' like a really nice Sport Tourer........ :fing02: :beer:
Now that you guys mentioned it, it appears we will have two bikes to choose from. 1. being are standard manual trans with nothing else. 2. Electric push button shift, with ability to be in full auto upon selection.
So does that mean the standard manual transmission bike does not have a dual clutch?
[/quote]
It can not be. An auto box has a torque converter which gives beautiful clutch slip characteristics. This has no torque converter so; does it slip the clutch hydraulically when pulling away slowly?
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If it's anything like the VW DSG, then yes absolutely. The clutches can be controlled with precision by the ecu depending on throttle position, wheel speed, etc. Will probably even use a G sensor so it will know if you're going up or down a hill etc. You guys should really go test drive a VW/Audi with this system if you haven't already, it's pretty amazing. Your average driver probably doesn't even realize it's not your typical "slushbox". Some of the all wheel drive Audi's with this system even have electronic launch control from the factory!
[image: View Post]kirbster, on Sep 10 2009, 02:27 AM, said:
One thing nobody's commented on yet is what it sounds like in that youtube clip. To me it sounds, um, a bit uninspiring... more like a twin than a V4.
But then it occurred to me some time later, that maybe at the time it
was a twin, because the VCM trickery that's also supposed to be on it had turned half the engine off... :huh:
All the shift points in the video are no greater than 4000 RPM. I suspect this is on purpose for a few reasons, one being they aren't yet ready to shows us how the 3 and 4 cylinder operation sounds like...yet. They are handing out info piecemeal at this point.
I'm a bit leary of the fully auto tranny operation. The video says that the shift points are past solely on bike speed. This doesn't seem right and would seem to lend itself to some very boring riding. Again, either they may be handing out info piecemeal and the AT shift points are also dependent on RPM and TPS.
The DN-01 has 3 modes. Drive, Sport, and Manual. I suspect this would be the same. Drive would give relaxed, low RPM shifts, and sport much higher shift points.
[image: View Post]magicman, on Sep 13 2009, 08:52 PM, said:
The DN-01 has 3 modes. Drive, Sport, and Manual. I suspect this would be the same. Drive would give relaxed, low RPM shifts, and sport much higher shift points.
The DN-01 is a CVT transmission, drive mode holds it at a certain RPM, sport holds it higher, and manual simulates set shift points. This is a different set-up in that there are no shift points because there are no gears in the DN-01, but yes, the shift points will be lower in drive than in sport.
I'm a little late to the party but I think it's fantastic - the engine sounds and seems so smooth too.
After watching the dual clutch video I noticed a couple of things I had not the first time.When doing the comparison between manual and DG, the video refers to each as a model and not as a different mode of one model,as if the DG may be on an option as in the 6th generation's optional brakes. I would imagine the ST version and new Goldwing will come with DG as standard.
Not so sure with the VFR
The second thing is the amount of rise from the rear end in the manual mode.The test was obviously on a dyno,which would exaggerate the effect, but I kind of thought that an up to date shaft drive linkage and geometry would have suppressed this a little more.
I understand the fall of the rear end of the Bike with manual shift changes,but why no rise on acceleration with the DG.
Perhaps the DG throttle application was a little more gingerly for demonstration purposes?
[image: View Post]jmac1957, on Sep 15 2009, 05:39 PM, said:
After watching the dual clutch video I noticed a couple of things I had not the first time.When doing the comparison between manual and DG, the video refers to each as a model and not as a different mode of one model,as if the DG may be on an option as in the 6th generation's optional brakes. I would imagine the ST version and new Goldwing will come with DG as standard.
Not so sure with the VFR
The second thing is the amount of rise from the rear end in the manual mode.The test was obviously on a dyno,which would exaggerate the effect, but I kind of thought that an up to date shaft drive linkage and geometry would have suppressed this a little more.
I understand the fall of the rear end of the Bike with manual shift changes,but why no rise on acceleration with the DG.
Perhaps the DG throttle application was a little more gingerly for demonstration purposes?
Not sure what DG stands for, but it looks like both models actually use a dual clutch, one uses a manual dual clutch, and the other an automatic.
[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Sep 15 2009, 09:57 PM, said:
[image: View Post]jmac1957, on Sep 15 2009, 05:39 PM, said:
After watching the dual clutch video I noticed a couple of things I had not the first time.When doing the comparison between manual and DG, the video refers to each as a model and not as a different mode of one model,as if the DG may be on an option as in the 6th generation's optional brakes. I would imagine the ST version and new Goldwing will come with DG as standard.
Not so sure with the VFR
The second thing is the amount of rise from the rear end in the manual mode.The test was obviously on a dyno,which would exaggerate the effect, but I kind of thought that an up to date shaft drive linkage and geometry would have suppressed this a little more.
I understand the fall of the rear end of the Bike with manual shift changes,but why no rise on acceleration with the DG.
Perhaps the DG throttle application was a little more gingerly for demonstration purposes?
Not sure what DG stands for, but it looks like both models actually use a dual clutch, one uses a manual dual clutch, and the other an automatic.
Actually I should have put all three letters in DSG(direct shift gearbox) which is a early term for dual clutch.....
End of thread · 38 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 8 Feb 2011