4th gen clutch issues

Just when I thought I was done wrenching, the VFR needs a front tire (I have one here already) and apparently clutch plates replacement. 1st gear is fine when ridden hard to redline, but 2nd gear has it surging and slipping and sometimes grabbing pretty much every time @ 10k before I can get to redline. 3rd-6th is OK, and I can even get 2nd to get to redline occasionally if I get there gradually and not when I'm accelerating hard. The 2nd gear thing feels like someone is taking the spark plug wire off and then putting it back on....power up till 10k, then surging and bucking.

I can upshift pretty much from 1st to 6th without touching the clutch lever too by just briefly rolling off the gas.

I've also had 2-3k miles of sorta "slingshotting"....I'm behind a car that I need to get around, so I grab a handful of throttle, never touch the clutch, and it sorta spins up the engine noise for a second without much more forward momentum, then catches and slingshots me ahead. It feels like I was losing traction on ice or something where I was spinning the back tire in a straight line, and then it suddenly gained traction.

If it was a nitro Busa I could say it was lighting up the rear tire with hp. But it's not. It's a 18 year old, 100 hp bike with 55k on it.

I am pretty sure, based on knowing the previous owner, that it's the original clutch plates. 55K on these currently. Granted, I ride this thing hard. Really hard. Pretty much every launch is a hard launch, redline, shift, redline, hard on the gas, etc. I know I should take it easy on the old girl, but it's so much damn fun and sounds so damn good it's hard to resist.

So..sound to you like a new batch of clutch plates (steel and fiber all the way around, or re-use the steel ones?) and new springs as well? Do you recommend OEM, Barnett, EBC, others?

I plan on tearing it down this week to see if I need JUST the fiber plates, or the fiber and the steel plates. Apparently from what I've been told sometimes you can get away with re-using the steel plates if they are not blued from heat and are not warped (tip: lay them on glass or a mirror to check). So, before I order everything, I suppose I need to check into it to see exactly what I need. I'm told to get new springs, but...is that all: What's with this judder spring thing...should I swap them too?

And here's my main question, which concerns how I drive this thing: I gather that the small squares of pad material on each friction plate is what keeps the clutch engaging/disengaging...am I to assume that when a clutch slips, those small pads have worn away, leaving that particular clutch plate smooth (or smoothER that it was when new)? I'm asking b/c I'm wondering if it is normal when a clutch starts to slip that it slips in only one gear like mine is doing in 2nd? I guess I have worry creeping in my mind that the dogs on 2nd gear are gone and I may have to undercut the tranny gears on yet another motorcycle on yet another 2nd gear. I've done this on another bike...kinda a PITA. It seems odd to me (and lends me to think the tranny might need to be undercut) that only 2nd gear slips. And now it seems to be slipping & bucking at a different RPM than before...then: 10k. now: 8k. Again, 1st and 3rd - 6th still pull solidly like a freight train, just 2nd has me a bit worried now....

your thoughts?

Hmm, if the clutch was slipping, it should do it in all gears, not just second.

Slipping on second makes sense, especially if it happens when you are trying to redline the motor.
I believe that 2nd gear forks and sychronizers tend to be the ones that wear out first on a bike's gearbox as second gear is where a lot of torque is typically used when accelerating a bike from slow speed or a stop. That kinda relates to clutches slipping most on 2nd gear then.

Beck
95 VFR

[image: View Post]Beck, on 04 September 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Slipping on second makes sense, especially if it happens when you are trying to redline the motor.
I believe that 2nd gear forks and sychronizers tend to be the ones that wear out first on a bike's gearbox as second gear is where a lot of torque is typically used when accelerating a bike from slow speed or a stop. That kinda relates to clutches slipping most on 2nd gear then.

Beck
95 VFR

So...you're thinking that if it's slipping most in 2nd, then the 2nd gear forks might be gone as well?

If your 2nd gear forks were gone it would make an unmistakably horrible sound when you hit the power.

If your as aggressive in gears 3-6 as you are in 2, then I would expect a failing clutch to slip more as you upshift and roll on throttle.  It also seems like successfully shifting through all your gears without the clutch seems to indicate your tranny is not the problem.  Not that I think I know what your problem is.

If your gentle in 2nd but nail 3rd, what happens?

Mine had same issue. Replace clutch plates and get stiffer springs. Problem fixed.

[image: View Post]mk2davis, on 04 September 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

If your gentle in 2nd but nail 3rd, what happens?

Nothing but raw, unadulterated, earth-shaking, VFR power.

[image: View Post]GadiantonRob, on 04 September 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Mine had same issue. Replace clutch plates and get stiffer springs. Problem fixed.

Same issue on the same bike? Cool. You went with the OEM schtuff for replacement?

Yup. That or Vesrah plates. Guy who did the work (knowledgeable fellow, I may add) said stay away from EBC, and that Vesrah made alot of OEM plates for the manufacturers. Only thing that was different were the stiffer springs I had installed, since I read somewhere that the Viffer's are a little soft and wear out, which is probably what your experiencing.

If your clutch was slipping it would do it in all gears and be even more noticeable in higher gears as the load on the clutch is greater due to the increased gear ratio. Sounds to me like you have worn engagement dogs on the second gearset. It is likely that under heavy loads the dogs are disengaging due to sloped engagement surfaces. Aggressive upshifts, particularly without the clutch, would cause this.

I've only upshifted/downshifted without the clutch 2x since I've had the bike, and that was last week to test out this whole theory. All of my other agressive upshifts (mostly) and aggressive downshifts (few) have been with the full use of the clutch.

Yup. That or Vesrah plates. Guy who did the work (knowledgeable fellow, I may add) said stay away from EBC, .......

I had bad experiences with EBC too, but with their brake pads which ruined (quickly glazed and deeply grooved) the front disc on my Hawk back in the 90's. Maybe their clutches are wonky too...

Beck
95 VFR

I rode it home today from work and paid close attention to the shifting. 1st is still A-OK all the way to red line. 2nd is sometimes OK if I roll into it gently, and will stay OK longer if I ease it higher, but just by giving it gas and no clutch it went from about 8K all the way thru red line and to the rev limiter each time. 3rd was still fine and 4th - 6th were fine on the freeway @ speed, up to about 90 with no slip or issues.

mine shows small signs like that when cold.. . I'm guessing I've starting to glaze the plates a little... but if I'm cracking the side-cover, I'm just dropping new ones in at that point..

I guess I was unclear about this. When I said it went from 8k thru redline to the rev limiter, it wasn't b/c the bike was moving faster. It was like I suddenly pulled in the clutch handle and rev'd it to the moon.

I was @ a honda dealer getting my tire swapped yesterday, and I asked a tech about my bike and the slipping, and he said "start to worry about the transmission." He said if a clutch starts to slip, it will slip in all gears and all RPMs. He also said the oil will have a burnt small to it. Mine does not.

So now, I don't know what to think. I guess I should take the clutch pack out this weekend and see if anything looks out of the ordinary.

I would be looking at the clutch first before worrying about the tranny. Both the mainshaft and countershaft are splined, which along with the gear dogs, would prevent an individual gear from slipping unless the splines and dogs were worn completely smooth. If a splined gear was turning on the splined shaft it should make one hell of a noise and vibration and, I think, happen at any RPM not just high in the rev zone. I am no transmission expert, so take what I say any way you want, but I would look at the simplest solution (new clutch plates and springs) first.

You will likely come out cheaper just replacing the engine with a used one. Full disassembly and repairs of this sort can get quite expensive.

I'd do the work myself. I haven't had a bike in a dealership for many years.

Took the clutch pack out today, and looked at all the discs. The steel ones were not blue or black anywhere on any side, and the fiber ones still had some of the pad material on each and every one of them.

So....when the fiber ones are done, do they get completely smooth?

I have the OEM service manual, but didn't see any reference to tell if any of the plates are within spec or not. Any of you guys know if this info exists?

Everything looks good and clean in there. No obvious marks or scrapes or anything like that.

pm sent.

your mechanic is a moron.
.. well.. not thinking it all through anyway..
when you get the bike rolling your bike now slips a little.. you may not notice it..
you shift to second.. which is a BIG difference in power transfer .. so you notice..
now your bike is moving.. and you dont notice it too much as you shift higher, because the bike is moving


if it was your shift fork, it would drop out of gear.. and feel very sloppy until it got to that point.
in anycase.. yes.. there is a minimum friction plate thickness.
and NO its not wearing all the material off. :tongue:

yes it IS in the manual... ditto for the drive plates.
i dont have a 5th gen manual but i know its in there.. :fing02:

I found the service limit spec numbers.They are buried in the front of the manual. I measured mine, and even though the springs are not at the service limit, they are lower than when new. Same with the fiber plates. I put the steel plates on my glass kitchen table, and none are warped or show any bluing. I do have a slight corn row pattern on the edges of the clutch basket fingers. Just a small series of slight indentions. No metal in the oil...I have a magnetic bolt and it was clean.

Any chance it is an oil issue?



Clutch lubrication

[image: Posted Image]

[image: Posted Image]Energy Conserving (EC) oil can cause wet clutches to slip

Many motorcycles have a wet clutch, where the clutch plates are immersed in oil. Some oils make the friction plates in the clutch slippery so that the clutch does not engage properly when shifting gears, or the clutch slips when the engine exceeds a certain torquelevel. Some oils contain friction reducing chemicals. A properly specified motorcycle oil will still allow for the appropriate lubrication and cooling of a motorcycle clutch, whilst maintaining 100% of the drive to be transmitted by the clutch, even under arduous operating conditions. One element of the JASO-MA standard is a friction test designed to determine suitability for wet clutch usage.[2][1] An oil that meets JASO-MA is considered appropriate for wet clutch operations. Oils marketed as motorcycle-specific will carry the JASO-MA label.
[edit]References

• ^ a b Motorcycle Four Cycle Gasoline Engine Oil (JASO T 903:2011) Application Manual. JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel. May 2011.
• ^ a b c d "All About Motor Oil." Mark Lawrence. California Scientific. April 24, 2011. Retrieved March 8, 2012. <http://motorcycleinf....com/Oils1.html >

[image: Posted Image] Wikibooks has more on the topic of: Motorcycle oil

it NOT an oil issue... and use 10w 40 oil.. when you change it.,
most people use mobile 1.. but its up to you.. i use baby oil.. made from fresh squeezed babies :goofy:
this not an oil thread. :rolleyes:
now that you see the wear on the basket case carefully file them smooth.
remove as little as possible... but get the them smooth. this WILL make a difference.
in anycase.. order some new friction plates and springs and put them in. :fing02:

personally i use barnett.. the hold up to the crazy monster 150ci HDs very well.

For me, I can probably rule out the oil. Always Honda 10w-40 GN4. Changed it about 500 miles ago, and every 3000 miles with a new oil & honda OEM filter.

New parts ordered. Will report back when I get them in the bike.
Edited by wgregt, 10 September 2012 - 12:34 AM.

Update: new fiber clutch plates, new fiber B plate, and all new clutch springs installed. All OEM parts. Put 30 miles on it today going to work and....still slips. In 2nd gear @ about 9k, it surges briefly and immediately goes to redline (and past) and revs as if I'm in neutral, even though I am not. If I let off of it a little and it drops to 7-8k or so, it still pulls and rides fine. I think it's only in 2nd gear. Never saw the neutral light on the dash light up at all.

Is there some way this could be electrical making it cut out like this?

If not, I suppose the next step is to yank the engine and replace the gears in the tranny?

I don't see how this could be an electrical issue. Of course taking a peak at the tranny would answer a lot of questions, it doesn't seem like it's your gears. I know many people here know more than I, but usually gears missing teeth make horrible sounds. I wish I could help more.

There is no metal or shavings in the oil at all. I strained it coming out and going in. Nothing left in the pan. No grinding sounds, no clunking, no gearbox noise or vibrations.

If it were electrical, the engine would slow down, not speed up. As in the ignition cutting out or something.

You are hearing an audible increase in engine speed which corresponds to the tach reading, yes?

If it were electrical, the engine would slow down, not speed up. As in the ignition cutting out or something.

You are hearing an audible increase in engine speed which corresponds to the tach reading, yes?

Yes. It really sounds and acts like I pulled in the clutch lever @ 8-9k while still on the gas, and it revs to redline (and past it if I let it). I don't go any faster, the engine revs to the moon instantly. The whole time I don't touch the clutch lever at all. Only happens in 2nd right now (didn't have the room this am to try out anything above 4th, and I didn't get above about 5k in 4th today.)

If I let off the gas, it'll come back down to 7k or so, and resume riding and pulling like normal. Until I get close to 9k again, and then it repeats. At about 9k it has a stutter (which is me thinking it may be electrical when this happens?), then immediately and easily swoops right to redline, even though I don't move the throttle.

I rode home and when I shifted it into 2nd, I tried to keep it there with my foot, but it made no difference: it gets almost uncontrollably jerky from about 7k on up, alternatively moving forward, grabbing and letting go, and then reving high and going no where, all without touching the lever, and holding steady (not increasing noticeably) the gas. One time the neutral light popped on, I was in neutral (all revs, no forward movement) like I missed a gear, though I'm sure I didn't.

I tried to pull it into 2nd, then keep the shifter up, but all it did was go into 3rd.

When I got home I doubled-checked the tightness of the chain (all good) and noticed the shifter peg, while not rotating on the splined shaft, did have some play in it, so I tightened it up. Will ride tomorrow and see if it made any difference.

Sounds like someone abused the hell out of your bike. The stutter is your trans intermittently catching second. You have a worn/bent shift fork. Your fix is to take apart the motor and replace the fork, although, if I were in your shoes, I would look for a lower mileage motor and do a simple motor swap. Then sell the old one for parts.

Riding hard and shifting is abuse? I swear, I don't get it. I've never missed a shift on this bike...are they not meant to be ridden hard? Am I supposed to ride hard only in 1st, and 3rd-6th? Yeah, I've accelerated hard while in 1st, shifted to 2nd, then accelerated hard to 3rd, and so on....now & then when time/space allows. I thought it was a bike, not a mini-van. What a grand disappointment due only to...riding it like a bike.

Have you owned it since new?

Have you checked the clutch fluid? I had read somewhere there is a tiny opening in the reservoir that when plugged can cause the same symptoms, just an idea there might be some goo plugging up something? I agree with most others, if trans was the issue it would be constant, you replaced the clutch pack & its still doing the same thing..... Just a guess since I try the easiest thing first. I have not had any issues with mine yet & at 91K she still can make me smile when twisting the throttle :smile:

Good luck

Gary

I have not owned it since new, but I bought it from a friend (who bought it new in 94) when he decided motorcycling was not for him for the grand sum of....$300 (long story). He wanted it gone RIGHT NOW to make space in the garage for a Porsche he could race. Anyhow, he put about 15k on it over 10 years or so. I know the guy...he was not hard on it.

I keep all the fluids clean and neat, but it's worth a check. If it's something easy like that I will buy every person on this board a beer. Otherwise, I just rode it into work...and it is damn near unrideable at this point. I can short-shift and only stay in 2nd for a brief time, but otherwise it bucks too much (and too consistently in the same place on tach and in the same gear) to make me think it is anything simple. I can't imagine anything in the reservoir would cause it to be so spot-on in the same place every time, but it's worth a look. I'll report back.

I had it happen to my VF700F. It's the shift fork.

so said the edge off the clutch basket had groves worn in to it.. did you file them down?
thats important!
as the plates will stick if its not smooth.. and you did soak the new clutch plates.. right?

Yep. Did both of those things. Soaked for 48 hours (not needed, but I couldn't get back to it once I started putting it back together). Filed the grooves with a dremel.

I don't know if this is related to your problem but wanted to share my experience (and waste of money) in case it helps.

Long story short: My clutch slipped when the bike was hot. I spoke with Honda dealer to no avail.

New clutch disks (twice), steel plates, springs, clutch hose, rebuilt master and slave.

Problem persisted.

Solution per Moto Grand Prix Racer's suggestion. Took the Master Cylinder apart and cleaned the weep hole out using a needle (previously cleaned with pick). It had gunk blocking the hole which did not alllow the pressure in the line to relase and equalize. When things got hot pressure would build up in the Slave cylinder and the clutch would start to slip. Let it cool and the problem would go away.

Cleaned the hole, problem solved. Now, if I had read this post before spending $300. I paid for college, I guess this learning experience is no different.

BTW, the bike had 18,500 miles at the time.

If anybody is in need a good set of steels w/18k and a set of clutch disks with less than 1000 miles on them, give me a shout (sorry, no springs).

Good luck finding your Gremlin.

I'm not really sure what can be considered as "abuse" with a VFR engine. They are considered by many as quite bulletproof to start with....but then I kinda have to wince, every time you mention that you bounce your engine against the rev limiter and redline, and it seems quite often from what you had described to us.
I guess you can call me a redline wimp, but I don't think I hit the limiter on my bike more than twice or three times on my 4th gen since I bought it in 1995...... :rolleyes:

Beck
95 VFR

Oh, I take the bike to redline alright, but I shift before it hits the limiter and before it sweeps the red zone. And I use the clutch for every shift. And it got me...nowhere, in regards to longevity.

I don't use the rev limiter as a suggestion on when to shift though. I've ridden with guys like that. Too funny. I get out of it before it gets that far, and get into the next gear. But yeah, each gear is usually under load. I'm riding...I'm not in a parade procession. That's what Gold/Old Wings are for.

UPDATE: Sorry this update has taken so long, but here's where things are: I dropped the engine, split the cases, and found.....a bent shift fork. Pretty significant scarring/gouging on one side of one fork, and the peg/dog for 2nd gear that moves inside the long slot to engage the gear has been significantly rounded off on one side. So, all together I need about $500 in parts for o-rings, gears, gaskets, etc, which I have ordered, and I'm sending the tranny out to be up & down race cut so this won't happen again. Should have it rolling out of my garage in a week or so if all goes well timing-wise.

Couldn't find a used engine?

Didn't even look for one. Didn't want someone else's problems in addition to my own on this one. At least with mine, I know the history of it.

Didn't even look for one. Didn't want someone else's problems in addition to my own on this one. At least with mine, I know the history of it.

Buying a VFR engine is very unlike buying other motorcycle engines. These things are almost always ridden by older, respectful riders that take care of them.
I got a used 97 engine for $500 shipped to my door, I've done nothing but beat the wheels off of it, and all its done is smile and take it. Of course, if I had a great running engine with only a second gear problem, I would fix it myself.

Also, forget the clutch for up-shifting when you're really trying to get down the road, blip the throttle off and click the gear, your tranny will thank you.

yeah, I know that the demo for the Viffer rider is different than most. Still, it only cost me $500 in parts and a few hundred to have the tranny cut. No big deal.

While you're doing the rebuild, strip the clutch slave cylinder down as well - it can gunk up and cause the piston to stick halfway down the bore, so the clutch never fully engages.

to help prevent this happening again install Factory Pro shift kit. my '95 was trying to slip/skip occasionally (2nd). put the kit in& problem solved, hasn't been an issue for years & well over 150K km but your thread reminded me about it.

UPDATE: Sorry this update has taken so long, but here's where things are: I dropped the engine, split the cases, and found.....a bent shift fork. Pretty significant scarring/gouging on one side of one fork, and the peg/dog for 2nd gear that moves inside the long slot to engage the gear has been significantly rounded off on one side. So, all together I need about $500 in parts for o-rings, gears, gaskets, etc, which I have ordered, and I'm sending the tranny out to be up & down race cut so this won't happen again. Should have it rolling out of my garage in a week or so if all goes well timing-wise.

Good to know that our initial diagnosis was on the right track. At least the mystery's over and it's getting fixed! :fing02:
Hope you get it back on the road soon!

Beck
95 VFR

Hello All,

I am hoping to buy a 3rd or 4th Gen VFR in a not too distant future and stumbled upon this post ! V4 Fanatic: Your introuctory post was most amusing and I admire you wanting to get to the bottom of the problem without resorting to buying whole engines, (although you might want to think about purchasing engine # 2 to keep expanding your hard earned knowledge !).

I think Seb Speed was the only one that insisted on previous ownership issues. The only thing I would add is that problems relating to second gear are often due to pulling wheelies. As your friend sold it to you so he could go racing with a Porsche he might have been able to do quite a few wheelies in the 10k he rode it. Try asking him sometime when he is off guard !

Regards to All

So, all together I need about $500 in parts for o-rings, gears, gaskets, etc, which I have ordered, and I'm sending the tranny out to be up & down race cut so this won't happen again.

Glad you found your issue. Just for future reference, where in So.Cal. can you get gears race-cut?

Cheers,

The only thing I would add is that problems relating to second gear are often due to pulling wheelies. As your friend sold it to you so he could go racing with a Porsche he might have been able to do quite a few wheelies in the 10k he rode it. Try asking him sometime when he is off guard !

I know the previous owner quite well, I don't think wheelies were in his nature. As for me, I've kept both wheels on the ground. The whole bent fork is rare on a VFR, I'm sure, so I'll see how the next 55k go on it after this fix.

Glad you found your issue. Just for future reference, where in So.Cal. can you get gears race-cut?

APE. They up & down race cut my ZX-10 tranny a few years back when they were in Burbank. Now, they are out @ the track in Rosamond, CA. http://www.aperaceparts.com/ They really are the only ones in SoCal doing it at all. Even shops/dealers send all of their customer's tranny's there. They seem to be the only game in town, and the only one on the West Coast that does it that I could find.

Also, Orient Express out on Long Island does it too. I've had one cut there before too on another bike when APE was backed up more than a month.