Hi
I am looking for some help selecting a suspension upgrade for a 1998 VFR. Specifically, I am looking for someone local to Central MA that has installed a Daugherty suspension upgrade or GMD suspension (Peter Kates) upgrade that I could talk to and maybe take a short test ride. A lot to ask, I know.
I am being a little cautious with selecting the right upgrade for the VFR because of my experience with my 2002 GL1800 Goldwing. Nice bike, but a totally inadequate suspension. After a lot of research and many recommendations, I had the suspension completely replaced by a system made by Traction Dynamics. Traction Dynamics makes a GL1800 specific package including AK27 fork cartridges, straight rate springs, fork brace, custom valved rear Penske shock with straight rate springs and the overhaul of the hydraulic preload mechanism. Roughly about $3000 installed at the time. I have taken the motorcycle back to be tuned by two different Traction installers and never achieved the ride quality and handling improvement expected.
My son’s identical 1999 vfr has a Penske rear sport shock and Recetech gold valves in the front forks. These were installed by the previous owner and I have no idea what spring rates are installed. I’ve ridden his bike and the suspension is not significantly different from stock to warrant the cost of the upgrade. This could be simply because of different tires, spring rates or suspension setup. Maybe the previous owner did a poor install on the Racetech valves.
I would like to have some real data before dropping $1500 on a suspension upgrade for a 14 year old MC.
BTW, this is not a knock against Traction Dynamics – they do good work and make good stuff. It just didn't work out for me.
[image: View Post]joneill, on 08 October 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:
My son’s identical 1999 vfr has a Penske rear sport shock and Recetech gold valves in the front forks. These were installed by the previous owner and I have no idea what spring rates are installed. I’ve ridden his bike and the suspension is not significantly different from stock to warrant the cost of the upgrade. This could be simply because of different tires, spring rates or suspension setup. Maybe the previous owner did a poor install on the Racetech valves.
Are you saying that his bike doesn't feel significantly better than yours? That's a little curious as you should have felt a major improvement. When a PO is involved it's hard to say what is really going on. Probably a good place to start is to determine how the forks and shock are setup. More than likely it's time for a good servicing anyway.
As your bike, I think you would find a pretty big improvement by upgrading your suspension. Considering that it can be done for as little as $600 total (both ends) it is certainly money well spent.
I have to take back the comparison between the two VFRs. I just went out and ran back to back comparisons over the same 10 minute loop. The 99 with the Penske shock and racetech front end is compliant and well composed during mid corner bumps. My stock 98 by comparison rides like a buckboard with the much less compliant suspension. Also, the front and rear of the stock 98 seem to be working against themselves. Mid corner bumps induce a “hobby horse” effect and the front seems to bottom out and cause the front to take a different line through the corner.
Before the back to back to comparison I didn't realize how much my suspension sucked.
What would you suggest for an upgrade? If you want to take this off-line just send me a message though this board
The first step is to make sure the springs are right for your weight and riding style (and prefered riding roads). I fitted a Elka rear shock a few years ago (VFRD group buy) and fitted a pair of new Sonic springs in the front. I then had the front forks overhauled, with new bushes, seals, Racetech gold valves and shimstacks, and it was great on smooth roads or at speeds below 40mph or over 60 mph, but otherwise gave my arms a workout. Turned out the springs were too stiff for my weight (Sonic Springs' spring calculator was - like Racetech's - too track-oriented). So, I sent my forks back for another fettling, and softer Ohlins springs were fitted, and the shim stack adjusted slightly. HEAPS better, but now the Elka felt wrong. So... I took a long ride at the beginning of this year to NZ's Ohlins specialist (who did the fork work) and they did some measuring, found the spring on the Elka was spot-on for me, and replaced the entire ELka internals with an Ohlins shimstack, oil, and seals. It's now AMAZING - I've made one minor adjustment to the compression damping, and other than that, all I need to do is give the preload ring a tweak up or down to dial it in for load and/or what riding I'm doing. It's so compliant now, and a pleasure to ride.
I had a 929 shock resprung for my weight, and also revalved by Jamie.
Once I set the sag I played with adjustments a little bit it didn't take long to find a setting I liked, and they haven't changed since.
I got him to do my forks too. I rebuilt the front with RC51 forks, but you don't have to go that far.
Big improvement over stock! It used to be pretty sloppy in twisties, now it's rock solid. Both ends seem to react equally over bumps.
Of course you have to be sure tires aren't putting you off when testing. Proper pressures and good even tread so you aren't fighting the tires to turn in.
I re-sprung my 98, and installed a 929 shock. Rode it that way for a couple years, and thought it was pretty good. I recently installed a Penske 8987, and AK20 kit from Traxxion. The difference in the way the bike feels is simply amazing IMHO. My tire wear is better than it's ever been, and I find myself going much faster with less effort, and more comfort.
My only bitch about Traxxion was the install instructions for the cartridge kit/fork caps. I was able to figure it out without too much trouble though.
My bike is a sixth gen but here's what I did. I weighed about 225lbs at the time (4/11.) Traxxion Ak-20 cartridge kit installed in the forks with compression and rebound adjustment built into the fork caps and Penske 8987 triple adjustable shock, both the forks and shock with springs and setup for my weight and intended uses. The improvement in handling and confidence was immediate and so profound I haven't wanted to change a thing. The base line set by Traxxion and Penske have not been touched. I haven't even set the sag. But I'll bet it is pretty close to what it should be. http://www.vfrdiscus...sion-obsession/
I hope this helps despite your unsatisfactory experience with Traxxion on your Gold Wing.
[image: View Post]joneill, on 08 October 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:
My son’s identical 1999 vfr has a Penske rear sport shock and Recetech gold valves in the front forks. These were installed by the previous owner and I have no idea what spring rates are installed. I’ve ridden his bike and the suspension is not significantly different from stock to warrant the cost of the upgrade. This could be simply because of different tires, spring rates or suspension setup. Maybe the previous owner did a poor install on the Racetech valves.
I'm head scratching on your comments on the Penske shock and traxxion fork gear. -- I also have a '98 and the suspension was shall we say --- "loose" when I bought it at about 6k miles. The rear would bounce over bumps in corners and the front would push and the whole thing reminded me of a pogo stick. Just was not fun trying to hussle in the twisty bits. After the upgrade and the lowered front forks and raised rear, the bike feels like a totally different motorcycle. Rock solid in the corners. Want to change lines mid corner? No problem. Just stable as can be. I am still amazed how good it is as a street bike. The Traxxion/Penske upgrade turned out to be a phenomenol upgrade worth every penny.
There are things about suspension that do get lost in translation, there is a reason suspension tuning is called a black art. For example you can go to a suspension tech & state what bike you ride, your weight, the percentage of uses your bike performs road/track/sports road riding/touring etc & you can still have a bike that isn't up to your expectations. The problem is everybody is an individual with different riding styles & the suspension tech will use base line formulas to select spring weight & valving flow rates to try to suit the basic information you supplied.
Like most things experimentation maybe needed to tune your package to your needs & that can mean have components changed, there are governing guide lines that help because even if a shock or fork has 20 odd clicks of compression & rebound adjustment it doesn't mean that range is usable & the component will need internal valving changes to suit your needs doesn't matter if Ohlins/Penske or whatever. Using say Ohlins as a guide there is a rule of thumb they use that when you go past a certain number of clicks in the range you really need valving internally adjusted. I have after market suspension installed on every bike I own & not once has the suspension tech I use got it perfect first time & has needed to tweak the settings to suit my requirements, even spring rate isn't an exact science & just because the chart tells you this spring suits your need doesn't mean it does in real life use on your bike.
As average people we don't have the funds of full time suspension techs on hand to make changes like say in motogp/superbike but you just have to think about the quality of the surface on race tracks compared to the road surfaces we all ride on & there making changes many times to find the performance they want. For us average Joe's we need to find a base setup that we like that allows some adjustment for different conditions but mostly a setup that works most of the time. My advise is only use a suspension tech that backs there work with free rework till the suspension package you bought works to your individual taste within reason. It is worth asking other riders of the same model bike what they have but remember we are still all individuals so what one person may like someone else mightn't as all shocks, springs, valving you can buy don't have the same design philosophy..
[image: View Post]joneill, on 08 October 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:
What would you suggest for an upgrade? If you want to take this off-line just send me a message though this board
Thanks
The formula I use for the VFR front end is pretty straight forward: springs and a revalve. For street riders you don't need to change the stock rebound pistons, just new shim stacks to dial them in to the new springs. The biggest gains are by replacing the compression valving all together.
An aftermarket race shock is nice, don't get me wrong, but in all honesty it is really only valuable for expert track riders. For the street you can get the same level of performance with other options - at a much lower cost. Upgrades to your OEM shock are often overlooked but I believe are a very cost effective way to get great performance from the VFR. If you want more outright performance and increased adjustability something like a converted CBR929 shock would be a great option. I have every aftermarket race shock sitting in my shop that I could install on my bikes. What I actually run on my personal bikes is a revalved Showa shock, for whatever that is worth!
There is a reason why you can buy used F4i shocks on eBay for 15 bucks each, and it isn't because they are as good as or better than the aftermarket options.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I’ve been away reading tons of suspension thread on this board. I can’t believe the number of suspension upgrade posts! Might even be more than regulator failure posts. :smile:
So I don’t confuse anyone, I am only looking at 5th gen options.
My options seem to be;
1) New higher rate spring for forks and rear shock. (<$200)
2) Revalve the fork and install higher rate springs, revalve the OEM shock and install higher rate
Springs (~$600)
3) Revalved forks and higher rate springs and revalved 929 shock with an higher rate spring (~$700 – $800). This also provides the compression adjustment. Not sure if this is a direct drop in since some posts indicate a tight fit and interference with the battery box, some have no problems.
4) Penske sport shock (I guess it is now a 7500 series?) and spring and revavled forks and springs with Penske valves ($1600). This includes new seals and bushings not included in above. This is from my local suspension shop.
I haven’t included Traxxion AK-20 cartridges or higher end Penske or Ohlins shocks since they are outside what I would want to spend.
I am thinking that revalving the forks and using either the OEM shock or a 929 shock might be the way to go.
Good luck. No matter how you decide to go with the upgrade, it will certainly be an improvement, as you know from the comparison with your son's bike. Enjoy!
If you go with the 929 shock you will need to extend the upper mount to maintain ride height. I made mine a bit longer still to raise the rear, and the shock reservoir was right up against the undertail.
That's the only concern I have with the 929 shock. Some have had it fit with no issues others have reported either a tight fit and interference with the battery box. I assume that's what you found with your install. Other than that what's your opinion of the 929?
Thinking about the 929 shock install on a 5th gen I am not sure if the install requires the fixed reservoir to be oriented forward towards the engine/exhaust or oriented rear ward away from the engine. If oriented towards the engine are the comp and rebound adjustments accessible?
[image: View Post]joneill, on 11 October 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:
That's the only concern I have with the 929 shock. Some have had it fit with no issues others have reported either a tight fit and interference with the battery box. I assume that's what you found with your install. Other than that what's your opinion of the 929?
Can't speak for others, but it is a tight fit. The reservoir actually contacts the plastic "shelf" just in front of the battery box. Raising the rear gave me enough clearance that it wasn't an issue, and made the bike hold a line much better. I have long legs so the added seat height was not a problem for me. The shock itself worked fine for a couple seasons with a 1100lb spring. I ride a lot of bumpy roads, and I was surprised it lasted as long as it did.
[image: View Post]joneill, on 12 October 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:
Thinking about the 929 shock install on a 5th gen I am not sure if the install requires the fixed reservoir to be oriented forward towards the engine/exhaust or oriented rear ward away from the engine. If oriented towards the engine are the comp and rebound adjustments accessible?
If you rotate the shock with the the reservoir forward I'm not sure that the reservoir will clear the frame, and the adjustments will be hidden behind the exhaust.
I have a 929 rear shock from Daugherty Motorsports. My shock is mounted with the reservoir facing forward and pointing to the left and there might be a bit of a clearance issue with the wiring harness on the left side of the frame. The wiring harness on my bike did make contact with edge of the lip on the 929 shock's reservoir but I used a grinder and trimmed the flange back a bit and it fit fine. The shock reservoir just rested against the wiring harness and since the shock doesn't really move much, if at all, in full range of motion, I'm sure it would have been fine. I wanted to make sure there was no contact, hence I removed a bit of material from the shock reservoir. I think I ground about 1/8" off the lip of the reservoir on one side, just to create some clearance between the wiring harness and shock. Other than that everything fits fine. When I originally searched for install write-ups the one I found showed the shock mounted this way and so I installed it the same way. It was not until after I did the install of my shock and did a write-up on the install, that I found someone who had installed it facing the other way.
i have an 02 vfr vtec, and have gone the reworked oem route. the front end was built by myself using racetech internals with their valving specs. i am actually very happy with the front end. i weigh in around 148lbs nowadays(lost a few pounds since the rewok), and run .95 up front. it works great with the reworked oem shock on the rear.
i initially used a set up with racetech spring and valving. they rebuilt my shock with a 14.3kg spring. it was waaaaay too soft. so i sent it off to daugherty for himn to rework it with a 19.6kg spring. i got my sag set up(on the stiffer side) and havent look back since. i love this thing. rear rebound could maybe use a litte bit of tweaking, but i don't know enough or do enough testing to beable to really say. all i know is it rocks. and rolls. in a good way.
my bro has a zx14 with traxxion cartridges up front with a fancy ohlins on the back with all sorts of knobs and reservoirs and shiny bits. sure, it is light years ahead of the oem susp(it was a PIG in oem config), but it is still not as good as the setup i have. i think the balance of both the vfr's chassis and proper numbers(sag, spring rate, valving, oil visc. etc) add up to more than the sum of the parts. mind you, i compare the zx to a big turbo bentley coupe. big and fast, but no hiding its mass.
i think i can honestly say that i can go faster on the vfr through twisties than my ducati supersport. i havent rework the susp on that yet... the parts are sitting on the shelf right beside me. will try and get 'er done this winter!!! :)
That's good to know. I keep going back and forth between the 929 and reworking the OEM. The OEM is attractive because I know it will fit and install easily without modifying the battery box and I can use the existing pre-load tool. I wonder how much I will get out of having the adjustable compression on the 929 if I get the spring rates right. Still thinking.
[image: View Post]joneill, on 14 October 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:
I keep going back and forth between the 929 and reworking the OEM. The OEM is attractive because I know it will fit and install easily without modifying the battery box and I can use the existing pre-load tool.
If you have "reworking the OEM" in mind - in order to easily adjust preload - then see if you can pick up a second-hand OEM shock from an ABS model (perhaps from someone who upgraded to a Penske or such).
IIRC, the ABS models had a remote preload adjusting knob.
[image: View Post]joneill, on 17 October 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:
Thanks for the feedback on the OEM shock
Upgrades to the OEM shock perform quite well indeed. Certainly a shock with a reservoir has some advantages, but for the typical street rider the performance you can get from the stock VFR is more than adequate.
[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 17 October 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:
[image: View Post]joneill, on 17 October 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:
Thanks for the feedback on the OEM shock
Upgrades to the OEM shock perform quite well indeed. Certainly a shock with a reservoir has some advantages, but for the typical street rider the performance you can get from the stock VFR is more than adequate.
unless you are a self proclaimed supsension R&D god.
[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 17 October 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:
[image: View Post]joneill, on 17 October 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:
Thanks for the feedback on the OEM shock
Upgrades to the OEM shock perform quite well indeed. Certainly a shock with a reservoir has some advantages, but for the typical street rider the performance you can get from the stock VFR is more than adequate.
"Not as crappy" is better than "crappy", but is not necessarily "adequate" - much less "more than adequate."
[image: View Post]dirtbag, on 17 October 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:
[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 17 October 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:
[image: View Post]joneill, on 17 October 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:
Thanks for the feedback on the OEM shock
Upgrades to the OEM shock perform quite well indeed. Certainly a shock with a reservoir has some advantages, but for the typical street rider the performance you can get from the stock VFR is more than adequate.
unless you are a self proclaimed supsension R&D god.
Thank you for calling me god & honestly I don't mind one bit if people wish to run the OEM shock standard or modified, at least I have spent time testing it & found it to be rubbish compared to other offerings. Simple fact suspension techs make more money reworking your OEM shock than selling you an aftermarket shock, the money they make on aftermarket is there mark up (which isn't much) & maybe fit-meant, rework OEM they get to sell you parts & labour plus fit-meant cost. There is a reason you can buy secondhand OEM shocks on Ebay for next to nothing enough said.
A typical street rider needs the best shock possible surely, I mean come on the sole purpose of a shock is to keep the contact patch at all times all conditions. Maybe I'm wrong but let me see riding on the road has so many more variables in surface conditions compared to track your asking allot of your shock. OZVFR that I ride with has many riders who just cruse & most never go to the track with there VFR & we have a die hard element that have been riding on reworked OEM shocks for years 3rd/4th/5th/6th gens. Those that have taken my advise & saved there $$ & bought better shocks & if there is strength in numbers, everyone of them has later commented about the improvement & how stupid they were to not spend the extra years ago. Simple logic really if you have never had a good aftermarket shock set up for you on any bike you have owned then you have no idea about the improvements & on a VFR it is a significant improvement, unlike a bike that already has a higher spec shock fitted like a sportsbike.
Disclaimer: What I write is my opinion conveyed on a forum with other opinions, like all opinions the individual has to weigh up information for themselves.
[image: View Post]zRoYz, on 18 October 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:
[image: View Post]dirtbag, on 17 October 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:
[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 17 October 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:
[image: View Post]joneill, on 17 October 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:
Thanks for the feedback on the OEM shock
Upgrades to the OEM shock perform quite well indeed. Certainly a shock with a reservoir has some advantages, but for the typical street rider the performance you can get from the stock VFR is more than adequate.
unless you are a self proclaimed supsension R&D god.
[image: View Post]zRoYz, on 18 October 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:
[image: View Post]dirtbag, on 17 October 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:
[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 17 October 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:
[image: View Post]joneill, on 17 October 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:
Thanks for the feedback on the OEM shock
Upgrades to the OEM shock perform quite well indeed. Certainly a shock with a reservoir has some advantages, but for the typical street rider the performance you can get from the stock VFR is more than adequate.
unless you are a self proclaimed supsension R&D god.
Thank you for calling me god
L.O.L.!
being called a god and being called a self proclaimed god are two very, very different things.
but you can go on believing that it is the same!
:laugh:
Frankly it's not a different thing to me when I'm an atheist, but if that is all you have to add to a discussion your joke is really on you.
One glaring point you fail to see is I have zero to gain from voicing my findings as I don't sell suspension or in the industry, I'm simply an enthusiast that enjoys a bike that works the way I want it to & have a view others might wish to read a point of view from someone that has done allot of experimentation suspension wise on the VFR.
End of thread · 30 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 21 Oct 2012