Is This Chain Dead? :)

Hey everyone!

So my 6th gen VFR recently developed this noise when decelerating, being a noob in mechanics I turned to Google, and one of the first things to look at was the chain slack. Sure enough, my chain was quite a bit loose... Like hitting-the-center-stand loose :goofy:

I adjusted it so that it just touches the bottom of the swingarm, then as I was spinning the rear wheel I noticed there was this tight spot where the chain was getting so tight the wheel was quite difficult to turn by hand. I remembered I read somewhere the chain should be adjusted in a tight spot if there is one. So I readjusted it accordingly.

The bike itself is in good shape... the chain not so much.

[image: IMAG0265.jpg]

(I just had to show you that I do not abuse my bike, it's not in the same condition as the chain haha)

Now I have to warn you, the images are graphic. Hide your children! The chain has never seen any babying. In fact, it hasn't seen any cleaning products, period :D in its 34K+ km that's just over 21K miles. I never really cared about the chain looks. Plus good luck trying to keep it clean when you commute daily year round in Raincouver, British Columbia :D rain or shine or salted roads.

Lubing - yes, I was actually quite good with it until the last few months, not sure what happened. Time kind of ran away from me I guess. So the chain is of this wonderful orange colour now :goofy:

So anyway, looks like the chain is not at the replacement point yet according to the wear indicator (see photo). However, (see video below the photo) when I put the bike in 1st the chain is not rotating evenly. Is it because it is just rusty and basically ruined by now? I do not really mind replacing the chain and sprockets every three years / 20K+ miles, but do I need to replace it at this point? Or is it OK? Look at the axle nut cap @ 0:37 it's doing figure 8s :wacko:

Thank you for all the replies! Yes, even the ones giving me crap for doing this to the chain :beer:

[image: IMAG0674.jpg]

http://youtu.be/nT8ySBwhY_k

Your marker shows that it was long time ago to change the chain.

Been gone for a while !!!

Your axle nut is not doing a figure 8, the plastic cap in the hole is not inserted evenly.

With that chain slap I would not get in line with the chain again, you may lose more than a camera. :unsure:

New sprockets and chain. If you don't care about cost or rotational mass have your local Honda dealer do it with stock Honda parts. They sure seemed to last for you without maintenance.

The orange color you are seeing on the chain is the grease that packed between the O-rings to keep the pins lubed. Once you chain is worn out these O-rings no longer keep the grease inside.

I call it the red dust of death as the overheated grease now looks powdery.

If you want to do the chain and sprockets yourself, purchase a good quality X ring chain and have your local dealer pin the master link for you off the bike. Stock gearing is probably best as you commute on the bike.

ON SALE !!!!

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/910756/d/2003-honda-interceptor-800-drive

This is where I bought my last few sets. I prefer the DID's over the RK's.

http://sprocketcenter.com/index.php/street-sprocket-applications/honda/vfr-800f-2002-2009/sprocket-chain-kits.html

Take it to a shop or dealer, have them change your sprockets and chains, move on. If you really want, buy one of the chain sets linked above.

Thanks for all the replies, folks! I guess new chain and sprockets it is ! Though I have to say the bike sure rides like new after the chain adjustment!

But yes, that chain slap is not looking good.

I have a couple of follow-up questions :wink:

1. So with regards to comments how the chain has been gone for a while. Am I completely misreading the wear indicator? According to this screenshot from the manual, my sprocket is not at the wear indicator mark yet, at least the way I understand this picture.

[image: VFR%2520chain.JPG]

2. Now if I do decide to keep the next chain clean, how do you do that? Any good products to give the chain a quick wipe before lubing?

3. From the DID chain/sprocket set description: Average life on a well maintained chain kit is 20-25K miles

Mine lasted 20K miles. So this means I had a well-maintained chain? :491: :491: :491: .

Some squirt the chain with WD40 and then rag it and spray with chain lube. Some just spray with WD40 and wipe and go.

Nas

1. So with regards to comments how the chain has been gone for a while. Am I completely misreading the wear indicator? According to this screenshot from the manual, my sprocket is not at the wear indicator mark yet, at least the way I understand this picture.

[image: VFR%2520chain.JPG]

2. Now if I do decide to keep the next chain clean, how do you do that? Any good products to give the chain a quick wipe before lubing?

3. From the DID chain/sprocket set description: Average life on a well maintained chain kit is 20-25K miles

Mine lasted 20K miles. So this means I had a well-maintained chain? :491: :491: :491: .

Maybe it is hard to tell from the angle of your picture, but it looks like yours has been worn out for a while. Draw a straight line down from the "Replace Chain" line. From your photo, it looks like the teeth are at least 1/4" or 3/8" to the right of that line. A good chain should have the sprocket teeth to the left of the line.

I get 18k-20k out of my chains normally with just lubing on occassion. I might actually clean it once during the life, but not regularly. Other have reported getting double that mileage with good maintenance. I got 40k out of the chain on my VTR, but it had a Scottoiler on it.

wera803

This is where I bought my last few sets. I prefer the DID's over the RK's.

http://sprocketcenter.com/index.php/street-sprocket-applications/honda/vfr-800f-2002-2009/sprocket-chain-kits.html

Thanks for the link! The OEM size kit is $174.00 on that website, and I called a local stealership, they said $59 for the front sprocket, $115 for the rear, plus $203 for the chain :wacko: That's $374 plus 12% tax = $418.88 Holy crap.

I will definitely get it ordered from sprocketcenter.com instead.

wera803

Maybe it is hard to tell from the angle of your picture, but it looks like yours has been worn out for a while. Draw a straight line down from the "Replace Chain" line. From your photo, it looks like the teeth are at least 1/4" or 3/8" to the right of that line. A good chain should have the sprocket teeth to the left of the line.

I get 18k-20k out of my chains normally with just lubing on occassion. I might actually clean it once during the life, but not regularly. Other have reported getting double that mileage with good maintenance. I got 40k out of the chain on my VTR, but it had a Scottoiler on it.

LOL I am really an idiot. Now that I think about it, of course the indicator should be to the RIGHT of the sprocket teeth on a good chain!

Thanks for the explanation!

Nas

wera803

This is where I bought my last few sets. I prefer the DID's over the RK's.

http://sprocketcenter.com/index.php/street-sprocket-applications/honda/vfr-800f-2002-2009/sprocket-chain-kits.html

Thanks for the link! The OEM size kit is $174.00 on that website, and I called a local stealership, they said $59 for the front sprocket, $115 for the rear, plus $203 for the chain :wacko: That's $374 plus 12% tax = $418.88 Holy crap.

I will definitely get it ordered from sprocketcenter.com instead.

Order the DID VX I think it is and not one of the other chain brands. It should be right around $200 or so. I also occasionally go with the RK but not with Sunstar or others...

Keep in mind that a lot of riders prefer the OEM front sprocket because it's got rubber(like) dampening built in, where aftermarket ones are solid metal and seem to transmit more vibration.

TomP

Keep in mind that a lot of riders prefer the OEM front sprocket because it's got rubber(like) dampening built in, where aftermarket ones are solid metal and seem to transmit more vibration.

True but I never noticed more vibration, just a little more noise from the front sprocket.

I can't really hear it over the gear driven cams and the Wolf exhaust. :cool:

My last question is, should I park the bike until I replace the chain / sprockets?

The sprockets do not look mangled, and the bike feels fine when I ride it now that the chain has been adjusted. Though I think there is a bit of noise if I roll on the throttle suddenly, nothing if I'm smooth. I will park it if I have to, I wouldn't want to cause any further damage.

If I had to ride it I would be judicious with my throttle hand. smooth on and off.

I have seen guys riding with sprocket teeth so worn you could hear the revs spike as the chain jumped around the rear sprocket but no forward motion...

the main concern for me for your chain is the tight spot that may fail unexpectedly.

Nas...

2. Now if I do decide to keep the next chain clean, how do you do that? Any good products to give the chain a quick wipe before lubing?

Just use kerosene just like the manual says... spray, wipe, pour, scrub, whatever you want... let it dry then apply chain lube. It is cheap, dissolves grime and oily stuff well, and it is the recommended solvent for use on o-ring chains.

Switchblade

ON SALE !!!!

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/910756/d/2003-honda-interceptor-800-drive

1. Street Bike
2. Parts
3. Drive
4. O-Ring OEM Chain and Sprocket Kits

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So I won't show a pic of my 30,000 mile chain that looks brand new. But I will say that WD-40 is better than kerosene. The kero leaves a crappy residue the WD doesn't. I know it's recommended by lots of manufacturers for lots of things as a great solvent but it pales in comparison to WD.

When I clean my chain with WD (every ride) and lube it with ATF it always looks clean and wet. When I used kerosene it looked dirty and dry. Strange but true.

I have 3 bikes with a combined 80K on their stock chains. Common ingredients...never ever chain lube...WD40 cleaner and ATF/gear oil. If I had to choose one the WD would be it as I think it is the secret to a long lived chain.

For the record the OEM RK chain on my 07 VFR is the best I have ever had. On the CS at idle you can't even hear it and not a single tight spot anywhere.

KEB

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23801-MCW-D00 SPROCKET, DRIVE (16T) $60.35 $39.83 1

Chain threads are kinda like oil threads.

36K out of my last DID/Superlight set. Lubed warm with DuPont Teflon every 300 miles or so. Never cleaned with anything except WD40 on a rag occasionally. Chain saw quite a bit of rain, and dirt roads. Sometimes simultaniously.

At 36K the front 16T sprocket showed noticeable hooking. The 43T rear looked good for the mileage. The chain had a few stiff-ish links, but no missing rings or red dust. I adjusted the slack once in it's lifetime.

I went out for a ride last winter when the streets were dry. In my haste to get on the road I forgot to check my chain (it was bone dry and stiff as a thick board I later found out). While accelerating briskly onto the freeway I suddenly found twisting the throttle did not produce the expected forward momentum. Managed to coast off the freeway and found my chain laying on the swingarm inside of the chain ring. I felt very lucky the rear wheel did not lock up. That could have been a bit messy.

Moral: never neglect your chain!

My definition of a worn out chain is after the 3rd adjustment because that
is undeniable evidence that the factory installed grease is beginning to
fail to lube the critical pin roller junction hidden behind the X ring... the
length of the chain is growing because of this metal to metal wear... I can
not call a chain serviceable that is grinding metal... it's like saying that a
dry bearing that runs ruff is acceptable... the net result is another 2 to
3% drop in RWHP as more energy is lost grinding metal behind the X
ring...

After the 3rd adjustment happens at around the 8K mark the factory

grease thins out enough to begin metal to metal wear... you
may still claim the chain will last longer... but you may not claim there is
no the metal to metal wear going on... everytime you adjust the chain
you're in effect taking up slack caused by wear at the critical pin and
roller junction hidden behind the X ring... keep riding far enough and the
red oxides of harden metal exploded pass the X ring in the dreaded "Red
Dust"... but now you're guilty of chain abuse and possible breakage...

We don't have to guess about wear because Honda provided a handy
guide to monitor chain wear... stay with in the green and you'll be looking
for a new chain and sprockets at the 8 to 10K mile mark...



This is what we don't see behind the X rings... metal to metal wear
every time we adjust the chain that eats into our engine's available
HP... a new pin measures 206.5 and wears down to 205.5 at the 8K mile
mark... looks good to the naked eye but multiply that 1 thousand of an
inch times 108 links and you have 108 thousands of an inch wear or
about the range of the green marks provided by Honda's wear gauge...
202.8 show the very visible wear at the 12K mile mark... the pins are
turning red from extreme heat of grinding dry metal... a chain in this
condition may consume up to 6 to 8% of our RWHP... not to mention it
may snap into and cause case damage...

CornerCarver

The orange color you are seeing on the chain is the grease that packed between the O-rings to keep the pins lubed. Once you chain is worn out these O-rings no longer keep the grease inside.

I call it the red dust of death as the overheated grease now looks powdery.

.

Negative... what you see is not grease rather the Red dust are iron
oxides of harden metal that are exploding violently pass the X
rings... the safety margin of strength built in the chain is expiring
with every turn of the wheel... what a rider risk is tossing the chain
which may crack the primary cover or worst yet foul the wheel and
cause an unwanted skid...

Interesting take on the pin wear Larry.

I may purchase a less "robust" (read cheaper) X ring chain next time if I am to be changing it that frequently, a fat boy like me can't stand to lose 8% of my RWHP

i think I am on my third adjustment .....

Thanks for all the advice, links and comments :)

I've recently started to be plagued by random clunking sounds as my chain smacks against the underside of the swingarm (at least I think that's what's happening). It could do with a tighten but as they start to stretch like this I always feel safer with a loose chain rather than risk the tight spot letting go. The sprockets look to be reasonably fine and the chain is visibly ok just stretching like a mad man

First place I looked for new stuff is ebay, $130 for non o-ring sprocket and chain kits.. nope.jpg

$180 ish for o-ring.. ehh, heavy duty would be preferred. I don't like unnecessary extra maintenance.

$235+ for x-ring, some are questionable and over $250 was all legitimate brands with links to real stores

Some of the questionable ones either had no master link or o-ring ones which makes me think they'd fail before the rest of the chain.

Bit much, but this is Australia after all where everything is more expensive than it should be.. I found Motorcycle Accessories Australia had the best prices, using a discount code I found on another forum I got an EK X-ring chain, already at 108 links for me and OEM sprockets delivered for $216 AU

Just waiting on muh package now so I can install it

CornerCarver

Interesting take on the pin wear Larry.

I may purchase a less "robust" (read cheaper) X ring chain next time if I am to be changing it that frequently, a fat boy like me can't stand to lose 8% of my RWHP

Why, so you can ride alone? Weight and chain wear is just nature's way of letting you enjoy the company of others.

Looking at a 7th gen today so I can get away from these chain threads.

Kimball

The original RK oem chain, was a special chain, I was never able to find it as an aftermarket. It had specific diameters and specs. I found the chain on paper but never available for purchase. On a side note after many chains on the vfr, the only chain that matched and or exceeded the oem was the DID vm and ZVM series xring. These's are DID top of the line chains , many think just because the name is( DID) they are the same(nope), DID has cheap chains also in their line up. The VM series is now discontinued, but may be found as old stock, Otherwise the only DID chain worth bothering with is the ZVM xring line up for the vfr.

There is a new VXX line up for DID that competes with some of the less expensive chains, but go ZVM if you want the better set up.

[image: 525zvm-x-08.jpg]

Nickle no less ..

Switchblade

Some squirt the chain with WD40 and then rag it and spray with chain lube. Some just spray with WD40 and wipe and go.

As for WD40, If you use it as the a chain cleaner (as you use it) it's just fine, but it's not a lubricant. Anyone who uses WD40 and doesn't follow up with chain lube (or any lubricant..) is doing their chain a disservice.

Nickle no less ..

A dime is too much to spare? :goofy:

thtanner

Switchblade

Some squirt the chain with WD40 and then rag it and spray with chain lube. Some just spray with WD40 and wipe and go.

As for WD40, If you use it as the a chain cleaner (as you use it) it's just fine, but it's not a lubricant. Anyone who uses WD40 and doesn't follow up with chain lube (or any lubricant..) is doing their chain a disservice.

Maybe so but I've run chains 18-25K or so with just that approach. Maybe I've run them past their "best by" date, but it's kept me going the last 15 years or so. I do occasional use the Dupont dry teflon spray, when I remember.

VFR4Lee

Nickle no less ..

A dime is too much to spare? :goofy:

Don't you wish they could be bought for a nickle or dime ..

I bought a ZVM 530 (did) on clearance for $40, That was a steal I couldn't pass up , they actually had two available ($60 total), but the other have been installed and was missing the master link. I didn't want that many chains into the future. I'll install it whenever the present chain goes south, but that's at least $130 savings.

UPDATE:

Ordered an RK OEM chain + sprockets last week, got it from motorcycle-superstore.com

Sprocketcenter.com had a better price, but they wanted $50 (!!!) for a 2-day delivery, and I could not wait for free ground shipping. Still saved something like $150 compared to Canadian pricing.

With a friend's help, I think we did it in about 2 hours, at a quite a casual pace. No surprises, no issues getting any parts off or on. Did not remove the wheel, did not remove the chain guard completely. Only two annoying black little pins broken :491: Mind you, I still had my originals pins in from when I bought the bike 3 years ago, so that's quite an achievement! But this time the pins were really dirty and also covered in tar after riding through some road construction.

It sure looks better with a clean new chain and sprockets! :)Huge difference in throttle response though! Rides like a dream now ! it feels like I bought a new bike! :wheel:

We'll see if I can keep this chain lubed and clean now :goofy:

Update from my last post here..

I ordered OEM sprockets and 108 link EK-SRX chain

what I received..

OEM sprockets for a ~1982 CB750 and 120 link EK-SRX chain with no master link

After calling them up and explaining they apologised and said I would get an email with a printable return label to cover shipping, about 3 days later I received this, and sent it back

I'm now waiting for it to arrive a second time >.>

Also I dug through the item list for the importer that this company uses and found the item numbers for the VFR kit was ###-151 and the CB750 was ###-51, all other (6 ish) numbers were identical.. so I guess somebody was just in a hurry and didn't look closely enough. The missing master link was a mystery though.

It's become quite the time waste as I wanted to have this done before I go back to uni, but at least they're being friendly and apologetic about it

Lots of good info on this thread! (and some not so good...) :rolleyes:

Carver! Where the heck did you get... "that red stuff on the chain is the Special High Temp Grease they use inside the o-ring chains..." ??? That's funny. I had another MSF instructor tell a student that during a class a few years ago. When I explained to him that his Ninja 250 chain was getting ready to break and explode his engine cases he got very offended and swore up and down that the rust all over his link plates was the "Special High Temp Red Grease" and you don't have to lube the o-ring chain because of this new technology in grease! I think he probably went home and looked it up, he never said anything about it again. I don't know where the red grease myth got started, but I've heard it over and over again. :blink: IT'S RUST !!!!! :ohmy:

Like Busy said, the link pins are rusting because the chain was over heated from not being lubed, which toasts the rubber O-rings so they shrink and let all the grease leak out so the pins are metal to metal and start wearing out exponentially faster, rusting just from the condensation when they cool. If you see the rust, (red dust), on just one link, it's new chain time!

WD40 is NOT a lubricant in this application. Like Tanner said, great for cleaning the outer links, but burns off almost immediately. The rollers and sprockets have to have lube on them or they heat up the chain very quickly which cooks pins and O-rings. WD on a rag to wipe the grime off the outer plates is all you should use. WD40 is just kerosene, it will penetrate the O-rings and wash the grease out of the rollers. Some other products that people use to clean the chain also damage the O-rings. Sometimes "Safe for o-ring chains" , is just a marketing gimmick. :warranty:

I don't want to start a "______ is the only chain lube that works..." thread, but the one that I found works really well, even riding in rain all day, is S-100 Kettenweiss from Germany. Can't get it here easily because of EPA regs, but that stuff was fantastic. Motorex road lube was close, but not available in CA anymore for the same reason. All the recent lubes I have tried work ok, you just have to re-apply every 3-5 days if you ride at freeway speeds any distance, (you know, 80-100...). If you ride in the rain much you need to lube before and after.

If you think about it, the drive chain on a motorcycle is a nightmare, in a mechanical sense. You are asking pieces of metal to run at high speed against each other without constant lubrication, at high temp, open to dirt, dust, rocks, grit, etc., and dealing with a quarter of a ton or more accelerating and decelerating, sometimes over 100 mph, (what? who goes that fast???), and expecting it to do it for, oh 20 or 30,000 miles!!! Try that with any other metal part. Your camshafts would be welded together in a few minutes! Take care of your chain. Not that hard.

The old enclosed chain drives on earlier bikes ran in an oil bath and lasted as long as a driveshaft. They had problems sealing the enclosures and they often dripped oil everywhere, so became unfashionable pretty quick. Kinda like chain guards. People take them off and just run the chain dry so there is no lube to fly all over the bike, and the OEMs are now making them smaller and smaller. Funny! :tongue2:

Ok, I'll shut up now... :biggrin:

Ded
"

Dedofnite

Lots of good info on this thread! (and some not so good...) :rolleyes:

Carver! Where the heck did you get... "that red stuff on the chain is the Special High Temp Grease they use inside the o-ring chains..." ??? That's funny. I had another MSF instructor tell a student that during a class a few years ago. When I explained to him that his Ninja 250 chain was getting ready to break and explode his engine cases he got very offended and swore up and down that the rust all over his link plates was the "Special High Temp Red Grease" and you don't have to lube the o-ring chain because of this new technology in grease! I think he probably went home and looked it up, he never said anything about it again. I don't know where the red grease myth got started, but I've heard it over and over again. :blink: IT'S RUST !!!!! :ohmy:

Like Busy said, the link pins are rusting because the chain was over heated from not being lubed, which toasts the rubber O-rings so they shrink and let all the grease leak out so the pins are metal to metal and start wearing out exponentially faster, rusting just from the condensation when they cool. If you see the rust, (red dust), on just one link, it's new chain time!

WD40 is NOT a lubricant in this application. Like Tanner said, great for cleaning the outer links, but burns off almost immediately. The rollers and sprockets have to have lube on them or they heat up the chain very quickly which cooks pins and O-rings. WD on a rag to wipe the grime off the outer plates is all you should use. WD40 is just kerosene, it will penetrate the O-rings and wash the grease out of the rollers. Some other products that people use to clean the chain also damage the O-rings. Sometimes "Safe for o-ring chains" , is just a marketing gimmick. :warranty:

I don't want to start a "______ is the only chain lube that works..." thread, but the one that I found works really well, even riding in rain all day, is S-100 Kettenweiss from Germany. Can't get it here easily because of EPA regs, but that stuff was fantastic. Motorex road lube was close, but not available in CA anymore for the same reason. All the recent lubes I have tried work ok, you just have to re-apply every 3-5 days if you ride at freeway speeds any distance, (you know, 80-100...). If you ride in the rain much you need to lube before and after.

If you think about it, the drive chain on a motorcycle is a nightmare, in a mechanical sense. You are asking pieces metal to run at high speed against each other without constant lubrication, at high temp, open to dirt, dust, rocks, grit, etc., and dealing with a quarter of a ton or more accelerating and decelerating, sometimes over 100 mph, (what? who goes that fast???), and expecting it to do it for, oh 20 or 30,000 miles!!! Try that with any other metal part. Your camshafts would be welded together in a few minutes! Take care of your chain. Not that hard.

The old enclosed chain drives on earlier bike ran in an oil bath and lasted as long as a driveshaft. They had problems sealing the enclosures and they often dripped oil everywhere, so became unfashionable pretty quick. Kinda like chain guards. People take them off and just run the chain dry so there is no lube to fly all over the bike, and the OEMs are now making them smaller and smaller. Funny! :tongue2:

Ok, I'll shut up now... :biggrin:

Ded

"

Curious, with this approach, how many miles do you get out of a chain, assuming majority miles of normal riding conditions - no/very few race/track days, minimal rain riding, etc.

vfrcapn

Curious, with this approach, how many miles do you get out of a chain, assuming majority miles of normal riding conditions - no/very few race/track days, minimal rain riding, etc.

That's a loaded question, cause the type and brand of chain can mean a huge difference in life, on its own, barring any maintenance and rider input. I tend to be a chain eater , so only the top line stuff yields a decent mileage, but the average vfr chain, Im lucky to see 10,000 mile, before they need babying. The top line ones I get closer to 20,000 mile before they need babying.

Ive seen the best life and performance with the higher end DID's over Rk and Regina, but DID also offers cheaper stuff that fits in the life span of the RK and Regina.

Capn,

I get a pretty consistent 20,000 or so with a good, high end chain. Usually run the best from RK or DID, just like Spud said. I don't change sprockets very often, just watch them for wear. Stock, hi quality steel sprockets seem to hold up pretty well as long as they always have some lube on them. I've found that even the "miracle" moly, Teflon, zinc, whatever lubes, in this high stress situation they burn off about the same as white lithium type mixtures. The friction involved is just too high for anything to stay on there very long.

Ded

Thanks for the reply Ded. I'm at just over 3 years and about 22K on my DID xring. It's needing more cleaning and lubing (WD40) now but I'd expect another 4-5K based on previous experience. I don't think I'm too hard on chains, lots of commute miles year round, but the WD40 clean and forget approach seems to work fine for me, although I do spray down with the Dupont Teflon as the chain gets closer to EOL. I do replace sprockets with the chain as they're usually shot too. I'm just not in to cleaning the wheel, sprocket, swingarm of all the accumulated lube on a regular basis. Different strokes I guess...if I could find a lube that didn't fling off I'd consider working that in to my maintenance.