Nasty Snatch?

[image: Maraetai 019.jpg] Note sure if it's me or the bike so maybe you can help. I'm a newbie and I've owned my 2001 for about six weeks. I'm returning to big bikes after about 20 mumble years not couting five years on 200cc Vespas because... it didn't seem to help.

Been on my 2001 for about a month and I've noticed it's hard to modulate the throttle in corners - specifically when I've gone into a tight corner on a trailing throttle then rolled it back on again. It's really hard to avoid a nasty jerk as the fuel flows again and the engine grabs it hungrily. That's not what I want when I'm cranked over. It's taken a few rides for me to get used to chucking a bike around again so faster riders might go straight past this issue but I wasn't left behind when on a blat with another guy on a 900 Hornet. I'll get better but don't think I'm just incompetant.

I've found myself trying to roll the throttle on very gently feeling for the catchpoint but I've been caught in no man's land, basically increasing the lag and maybe even increasing the chance of a jerk when the throttle is back on. It seems I can't do it gently enough to avoid a snatch. I feel like I'm trying to set a distance record for strangling a chicken with my thumb and forefinger.

There's only a small or reasonable throttle play between on and off, so it's not like there's too much slack in the cables although I'll look at improving this. People say there's a sharper response to the throttle on injected bikes but this doesn't feel right to me. It makes it hard to ride the bike smoothly and get a nice flow and that poetry is one of the things I went back to bikes for. Of course, my previous bikes, antiques now, (GS550 and GS1000S) had carbs.

I've seen other newbs wondering if their chains are adjusted right because you can find the same snatchiness thing changing gear. I've seen advice to not throttle off completely, and not pull the clutch in completely. I'd aready dsicovered this for myaelf (in fact I find clutchless upchanges are possibly smoothest of all) but I don't think I can keep the throttle partly open when engine braking into a corner. Has anyone else seen this? How did you resolve or mitigate it?

By the way the bike has done just 22,000 kays so its had long periods of little use but previous owner maintained it pretty carefully, I believe.

Look forward to hearing your views. Cheers, Parksey

Hi Parksey & welcome to the Viffer. You have discovered one of the VFR's real issues, but it was the same for all first generation EFI bikes. Throttle off in EFI = No fuel, so bike jerks when throttling on. this does not happen with carbs as fuel is always provided.

There are a couple of things you can do to make this better, one is lose the throttle free play, there is no need for it with EFI, just make sure it does not rev up from lock to lock. Next balance the throttle bodies, it makes the engine & pickup so much smoother.
If you still have issues, get a Powercommander & have it mapped by a competent shop, this will definately sort it out.

You might want to lose the PAIR air bleed system to.

Have fun.

Is the chain properly adjusted?

Put  1/2  can  Seafoam  in  and  run  tank  of  fuel thru  it.

Man, from the title I thought you had found my high school girlfriend.  :goofy:

I was warned about a "snatchy" throttle of a FI bike when I came from my Nighthawk. I honestly don't even notice it anymore though. But, the real trick here is making sure that it is just something you will adjust to or is there really an issue?

Everything said up to this point is standard. Seafoam won't hurt anything, so go ahead and try that. Adjust the throttle slack and see if that helps too and check your chain. After that, well I got nothing!

Part of it is your newbness, over time you will get better. But if it really bothers you, you can change the throttle tube for a slower throttle opening. (The vendor name escapes me for the moment, I'll find it. -- Or another member will chime in. )

My previous VFR was a 4th gen and that bikes fueling was butter smooth, I did notice the difference on the 5th gen. But having ridden for a bunch of years and lots of bikes, I quickly made note, and it really doesnt bother me.  

Nasty Snatch? Yeow!

Based on the thread title, I was expecting another post from Dutchy! Anyway, having an '01 and an '09 I have found that the '01 doesn't seem to have the "snatchy" throttle that I had on the '09 when I first got it (Power Commander now installed). That being said, the few suggestions already thrown out would be a good place to start. When I first brought the '01 home I knew I had a bit of work to do, as when riding it home it was very hard to shift and wasn't running as good as I knew it could.

The first few things I had to do was flush/fill all of the fluids, regardless of what the seller had said, even if the bike had just been serviced it doesn't mean it was done correctly. The first issue resolved was the hard shifting, apparently the PO or service technician had put too much oil in and after replacing the oil with the proper amount the hard shifting was gone. Next I ran two tanks of Seafoam through her and also replaced the chain/sprockets (well overdone). Did a basic tune up, changed air filer and spark plugs and double checked all the hoses and connections and tightened up the "slack" in the throttle cables and now she's running great!

Now everyone's experience can be different but you might try the following:

1. Check/change the air filter and spark plugs.
2. Check any air hoses, cables and connections related to throttle.
3. Check the chain/chain slack.
4. Check engine oil for proper level.
5. Run a couple of tanks of Seafoam (or equivalent).
6. If issue still exist, have the throttle bodies synced.
7. If issue still exist, install a Power Commander (or equivalent).

Man, from the title I thought you had found my high school girlfriend.  :goofy:

I was warned about a "snatchy" throttle of a FI bike when I came from my Nighthawk. I honestly don't even notice it anymore though. But, the real trick here is making sure that it is just something you will adjust to or is there really an issue?

Everything said up to this point is standard. Seafoam won't hurt anything, so go ahead and try that. Adjust the throttle slack and see if that helps too and check your chain. After that, well I got nothing!

Should  have tried  to  Seafoam  high school girlfriend  .

:goofy:

Assuming a good state of service, I've found my cornering to be a whole ton smoother if I keep the revs higher. Off/on throttle transitions at 3-4k suck a whole lot more than they do at 5-6 or 6-7. When I first got my vfr I was used to a carbureted 1200 kawi that was very smooth and perfectly comfortable pulling off a corner at 2000 revs, it took me a little while to adapt to the revier nature of the vfr. I mean obviously, check all the above mentioned stuff to be sure there isn't a mechanical problem, but a little tweak to riding style might be a big help too.

A snatchy title always guarantees lots of views!

Somebody needs to check on Dutchy.  I'm sure he must not be well.

Here's  the  Dutchy   ...

It  work   ....

Didn't  work  he  found  it  ..

You could try a throttle tamer.

The throttle tube has a cam profile that is lesser at the beginning, then ramps up.

Total throttle rotation stays the same though.

After of course, you do all the easy stuff like throttle cables, chain slack, and rear drive hub bushings.


http://www.g2ergo.co...-throttle-tube/

[image: G2_Ergonomics_Throttle_Tamer.jpg]

Looks interesting. I'll do the recommended maintenance but chain and throttle cables both seem pretty snug. I reckon there's more slack inside my hand than there is play in the throttle. And i know the previous owner. He's way more fastidious than me about his bikes and I know he's done all the fluids, although it's now time for an oil change - even though it's at the correct level and still a lovely gold colour.  The bike runs beautifully and butter smooth everywhere else. It's just the on-off snatch that's, um, rancid, right now. Even if it turns out there's nothing ' wrong' I'm confident some of these suggested changes will help. I like the idea of stifling the O2 sensors, balancing the throttles can't hurt, checking and possibly raising idle speed, is worth trying. If  I still haven't come to terms with it, this throttle tamer sounds interesting. I guess it must reduce fuel delivery more than I can manage with a standard throttle but even with the tiny amounts of fuel I feed in with a super careful twist i still  get a nasty snatch.  It's so binary - on or off, possibly compounded by the fact there's not enough fuel to keep the revs rising so there's an immediate death, making the blip more pronounced. Did you install one Veefer800Canuck?  I can see how it would change power delivery. How did you find it? I just wonder if we're asking the throttle tamer to do something about a problem at the border of its territory when within the throttle's actual range there's no real issue. The Power Commander seems to vying for attention again. I'm going to check out people's experience with those too. But as Superfunkomatic, says I'm sure more miles (and more revs) will help, because sometimes it's a more fleeting blip. Still a bugger if find myself in that no-man's land, waiting. there's no escaping it then. Love the bike on the sweepers but right now I'd be happier and probably faster in the twisties on a carburettored bike. Thanks tio everyone for providing so many things to try. I'm sure there's gains to be made here.

I'm going to spend a bit of time with the manual and scouring VFRD to understand some of these things but 'disabling the pair system"? Is there a quick description of what this is and why we don't need one? Mohawk mentioned this too, as well as tbzep, so I guess its a common mod.   And oxygen eliminators?   If there are threads on these I imagine I'll find them but just wondered if there's a simple explanation first.

The PAIR valve lets fresh air into the exhaust to help cheat emissions testing.  It opens and closes in various situations.  I don't think it is supposed to affect anything, but it does with my bike.  If the o2 sensor reads while it is open, it will think the mixture is leaner, if it reads when closed, it will think it is richer.   I did this mod before doing the o2 eliminators.  I imagine the o2 eliminators made the PAIR mod obsolete, but I didn't bother changing it back.

...

Just for clarity... the O2 sensors output only effects fueling when in closed loop operation and in that state the PAIR valves are not open.

You could try a throttle tamer.

The throttle tube has a cam profile that is lesser at the beginning, then ramps up.

Total throttle rotation stays the same though.

After of course, you do all the easy stuff like throttle cables, chain slack, and rear drive hub bushings.


http://www.g2ergo.co...-throttle-tube/

[image: G2_Ergonomics_Throttle_Tamer.jpg]

... Did you install one Veefer800Canuck?  I can see how it would change power delivery. How did you find it? I just wonder if we're asking the throttle tamer to do something about a problem at the border of its territory when within the throttle's actual range there's no real issue.

I did install a G2 Throttle Tamer after performing the suggested maintenance and mods and it helps on the closed throttle to small throttle openings in turns... I was especially plagued by very tight first gear turns due to a screw holding my right wrist together and my poor sensitivity for the small inputs necessary for this type of maneuver...

Don't forget that technique plays a big part in this too.  Chopping the throttle closed during entry then cracking open a bit mid turn will make this EFI snatchiness feel worse.  A little "maintenance throttle" and a gentle roll on as you progress through the turn will make it disappear.

I have yet to encounter a nasty snatch, so sorry I cannot be of help.....

+1 :goofy:

Yes it did help with on/off throttle transitions, and small throttle openings.

I got mine on Ebay, brand new in the box, for $40, because the packaging was crushed. But the throttle tamer was in perfect shape.

You could try a throttle tamer.

The throttle tube has a cam profile that is lesser at the beginning, then ramps up.

Total throttle rotation stays the same though.

After of course, you do all the easy stuff like throttle cables, chain slack, and rear drive hub bushings.


http://www.g2ergo.co...-throttle-tube/
 

Looks interesting. I'll do the recommended maintenance but chain and throttle cables both seem pretty snug. I reckon there's more slack inside my hand than there is play in the throttle. And i know the previous owner. He's way more fastidious than me about his bikes and I know he's done all lthe fluids, although it's now time for an oil change - even though It's at the correct level and still a lovely gold colour.  The bike runs beautifully and butter smooth everywhere else. It's just the on-off snatch that's, um, rancid, right now. Even if it turns out there's nothing ' wrong' I'm confident some of these suggested changes will help. I like the idea of stifling the O2 

What?? Your oil is still a lovely gold color and it's time to change it?!??! I've never seen that--mine turns "dirty"very, very fast--, but I don't know much about mechanics. Could you be so good as to explain it for people like me please???  

Thanks,

C

Colour is not an indicator. Diesel engines have black oil within days of changing it and it goes for tens of thousands of miles in over the road trucks using oil analysis.

And this is not another oil thread. For the love of Pete.

THIS is the official oil thread: http://www.vfrdiscus...ial-oil-thread/

Lets get back to nasty snatches. Thank you.

/rant

[image: 374444_396135423818881_1503495645_n.jpg]

And....he's back.

Hi from Birkenhead, Parksey.

I had exactly the same issue with the VFR's snatchiness when going from off-throttle to on, and what fixed it this: remove nearly all the throttle slack, fit some resistors to the O2 sensor cables to disable them, and keep the idle at 1300 rpm. That's it. The bike will be transformed.

I've had my '01 for over 9 years now (my third V4), and learned a lot about them, so if you want to catch up some time, let me know, and I'll PM you my cellphone number.

- Ian

And....he's back.

I  knew  it  would  not  last  for  long ..

You guys have no IDEA what throttle snatch is!

My '09 triumph bonneville I just sold had the WORST throttle issues I've ever experienced- basically between 5% and 6% throttle it would jerk you forward and start surging.

Compared to that, the vfr is a smooth angel :)
It's all about throttle control, don't let yourself be spoiled by carbureted systems

You guys have no IDEA what throttle snatch is!

My '09 triumph bonneville I just sold had the WORST throttle issues I've ever experienced- basically between 5% and 6% throttle it would jerk you forward and start surging.

Compared to that, the vfr is a smooth angel :)
It's all about throttle control, don't let yourself be spoiled by carbureted systems

Indeed. I'm surprised this is the first mention  of this in this thread. EFI is a bit of an "on/off" switch when opening the throttle... it comes with the territory. It's a all about clutch and throttle control at low RPMs. Once you get the hang of it, it'll become second nature.

Nothing says that you have to close the throttle while using the brakes either.

Nope, true, Snowcrash, I didn't have ongoing surging but did have a snatch that would jerk the bike forward, enough to straighten my arms, and even unstick me on the seat, which would cause me to button off and possibly repeat. Just rolling the throttle on and off  on the straights - gently mind -  could make it happen. A trailing throttle just seemed to turn it into a skittish horse. As for not closing the throttle right off, I don't know about your corners, possibly the same, but here in NZ a constant radius corner in the twisties is rare. Terrain is rough and <second equine analogy alert> roads seemed to have been formed in times gone by by horses bearing drunken owners finding their own way home. Drinking and riding has ancient roots here.

I agree you don't have to roll off all throttle to brake but when tiny movements are having a big effect on the fuelling (on my bike) modulating the brake can still induce that effect. I've spent quite a bit of effort trying to find a sweet spot that would allow a smooth roll on, but occasionally when the corner tightens and you want to dump even that tiny amount of throttle it puts you in that space. Maybe I'm not skilled enough to control that involuntary reaction. As taking video would only make the rider look indistinguishable from an idiot, I can simply assure you the whole scenario was spoiling my fun; it was bad enough to prompt me to seek help here and had me thinking if I can't fix it, I'd change the bike.

Anyway, better news. I've raised the idle as a couple of people suggested and that has fixed maybe 90% of the problem. It was idling at around 800-900. I've taken it to 1200-1300 as wagzhp and enzed_viffer suggested and the bike is soo much sweeter. It still has engine braking but it's less savage and that's another bonus. I'd noticed previously that instead of giving the bike time to warm up it was nicer to ride while the autochoke was still on and idle revs were higher - smoother shifting and so on - so, after checking chain and throttle cables, this seemed like a good first step. I wanted to do one thing at a time.

I still notice a slightly different response to roll-on roll-off at times which, to my way of thinking, could be the different states the PAIR system is responding to? So 02 eliminators are next, as tbzep and enzed_viffer suggested. However, even if that does nothing the issue is now a small detail which sits comfortably in the bike-with-character class. And I could always try a throttle tamer as mellodude, Rush2112 and Veefer800Canuck suggested, if I wanted to play more.  Thanks all for your help. I'll report back on developments.

One thing I do in parking lots sometimes is when I'm going real slow, instead of going from nearly a dead idle, rolling along in first gear, and then applying throttle, I will pull in the clutch instead, and give it gas while sliding the clutch slightly.

This, while already moving at a walking pace. Takes the on/off throttle transition right out of the equation.

Yeah, I do that too. I guess that's why I only noticed this at well above walking pace, but particularly in lower gears.

My last 2 cents.... Remember when you first started to ride and from a dead stop, was working to ease the clutch out? (Ok, I dont know if you did this, but as an illustration....) The more effort you thought about it and try to be smooth, the harder it was? And one day, you just got it and dont even notice the effort any more? 

I believe over time, your throttle snatch will end up the same.  (Although as a newish rider, the throttle tube is probly worth it.)

Yep, I know what you are saying. That loomed large on my second attempt to ride a bike at age 15 after my first effort on my brother's two-stroke Honda MT250 saw me being dragged down the road and hitting a stone wall at the end. (Told him the throttle had jammed open.)

I  was kicking myself for leaving that learning curve bit out of my summary above where I threatened myself with changing the bike. I should have added the other option of working on the strengths as others have also recommended. To be fair in my first post I allowed for the fact that it could just be me, and even if it wasn't all me then I was sure I'd get better. I am still going to do that but I also feel vindicated in raising this as an issue as the change in the idle speed has done more to tame this than I expected. I no longer feel wary of a nasty snatch, or disappointed or annoyed with myself when I've gone there.

This whole issue could now easily pass into that unconscious zone you talk about and that would be the end of it. But at the moment I'm inclined to stay aware and make more tweaks. If I can make it smoother still, so much the better, if not, it won't worry me any more. 

It  can be  work  out.  Mine  was  bad  when  first  got it mostly  when  the  bike  was real warm.  The  things  I  have   changed  over  the  years  has  eliminated  it.

Whelp, I met our new member today, and he's a really charming guy - a nicer person you couldn't hope to meet!

The picture he posted of his '01 doesn't do it justice - it looks like it just rolled off the factory production line, except it's got extras that weren't included ex-factory! I've seen brand-new bikes that didn't look this good (and it cost $5k less than mine did 9 years ago!). A really wonderful bike, and it will be even better once he gets the "nasty snatch" sorted. (Yes, I'm jealous...)

Cheers enzed, Enjoyed out chat too, and likewise really appreciated your kindness, hospitality and patience with my questions. Thanks too for the compliments on the bike although I will admit to giving it a damn good spit and polish for its first outing in VFRD company. Parksey.