Was told that I need to replace the clutch fluid in my 1998 VFR800 that I bought two weeks ago. Opened up the clutch reservoir and whoa, saw this.
What the hell? tried to clean it up and put in new fluid and tried to bleed it, but this stuff is sticking to the reservoir. Meanwhile the clutch is now very spongy, don't know if there is debris or just air, but when i pull in the cluch in first, it is still in gear. Any help would be appreciated?
its gelled brake fluid.
clean it out.,, flush the line.
fill MC. bleed brakes and your good to go.
Brake / clutch fluid might be one of the most overlooked maintenance items. Brake fluid is hygroscopic - it absorbs moisture and what you've got is the result. A can of brake cleaner (any auto parts store) can help dissolve the residual sludge. Be careful with brake cleaner and fluid - it's murder on paint, so cover anything vulnerable. If you can't get the gunk out, you may end up disassembling the master and slave cylinders to get things working.
While you're at it, chances are the previous owner didn't service the brake fluid either. Pull the brake m/c cover and see what you've got . . . probably needs the same cleanout.
Man, that is a real mess. I think you'll have to disassemble everything to get that mess cleaned up. Sucks, but IMO that's the only way to be sure you get all that crud
out of the system. Might be that someone screwed up and put in some silicone brake fluid at some point by mistake or without cleaning all the regular fluid out. Make
a mess, not like that, but it will gel and clump up.
I'd agree that you need to check the brakes, both front and back. Just as a precaution.
You will also have to clean out the clutch slave cylinder.
Let's begin at the beginning. A brake system is not a
sealed system. A physics principle known as Boyle's Law in a
round-about way establishes that a fluid cannot leave a container
unless air can follow it. If the vent in your gas tank plugs up, for
example, fuel will eventually stop flowing. Similarly, a brake system
is, like a fuel tank, vented to atmosphere, usually at its highest
point, the reservoir. (Ever notice that little notch?) Thus a brake
system has continuous access to air.
The Problem with Moisture But that means it also has continuous access
to moisture, for air naturally has moisture in it, to varying degrees.
All brake systems have moisture in them, all the time, and this is
unavoidable. There are two inherent difficulties with this that brake
system designers must contend with. First, as moisture increases in
the brake fluid, it tends to collect around the system's moving parts,
particularly the pistons. If this moisture is allowed to increase, the
pistons and surrounding areas will begin corroding and brake function
will be seriously impaired. Corrosion is a big deal in brake systems,
as anyone who has restored a vintage vehicle will attest. Nasty.
The other problem with this continuous exposure to moisture is that
moisture makes the brake fluid more compressible. You don't want any
compressibility in a brake system. For every millimeter that the lever
or pedal moves, you expect a proportionate movement of the brake pads
against the disc. If you don't have that, you have an unreliable and
dangerous brake system. Unfortunately, brake fluid becomes more
compressible as it increases in water content. Water contains
hydrogen, and in response to heat cycles the brake fluid soon has air
mixed into it as well as moisture.
Consumer-Friendly Brake Fluid Brake system designers consider these
issues thoroughly. To reduce the effect of both corrosion and
compressibility, virtually all vehicle manufacturers use and specify a
kind of brake fluid that is designed to not only accept significant
amounts of moisture, but even to neutralize it by dispersing this
moisture evenly throughout the system, thus preventing its
concentration in any one area. It's actually kind of amazing what
brake fluid does, when you think about it.
What Does the D.O.T. Rating Mean? Eventually, however, because of this
designed-in moisture management, the fluid gets overloaded and must be
replaced. So important is this fluid replacement point that vehicle
manufacturers have traditionally called for a maximum of a two year
period of use of the fluid. By that time, the fluid will have started
to turn golden, then light brown, indicating that it has absorbed
progressively more moisture. Eventually, if left unchanged beyond the
recommended service interval, the fluid will become dark brown,
indicating high amounts of water absorption and thus badly
contaminated fluid.
The importance of monitoring brake fluid's water content is further
demonstrated by the fact that in the U.S., a brake fluid's most
important classification is determined by the Department of
Transportation, an arm of the National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration. The D.O.T.'s rating communicates how contaminated with
water the fluid can be and still work properly. In essence, how
consumer-friendly it is. This is where the numbers 3, 4, and 5
actually come from. The D.O.T.'s rating focuses on the compressibility
issue, and measures a brake fluid's ability to resist boiling into a
very compressible gas even when new. This of course reflects upon its
compressibility over time as well, after it has aborbed moisture and
become incrementally more compressible. This is the fluid's so-called
boiling point, which for most brake fluids centers around nearly 500
degrees Fahrenheit when new, and rapidly decreases with water content.
Incidentally, D.O.T. 3 brake fluid is for all practical purposes
obsolete. D.O.T. 4, a rating that came about in response to the
emergence of sintered metal brake pads during the early 1980s, has
replaced it, being still a glycol fluid but with a slightly higher
boiling point. Glycol brake fluid containers now are labeled "D.O.T.
3/4," presumably to eliminate confusion, as the two fluids are nearly
the same. However, this seems to have merely raised more questions in
most people's minds. The short of it is, if using purely organic
(almost exclusively aftermarket, and usually, racing) brake pads,
D.O.T. 3 will suffice. Otherwise, use D.O.T. 4.
Glycol Brake Fluids
Virtually all vehicle manufacturers specify one kind of brake fluid,
whose base is alcohol. As we have already explored, this eminently
ubiquitous alcohol (actually glycol) brake fluid is suited to the
realities of vehicle ownership. It neutralizes moisture, turns color
in direct proportion to moisture content, disperses moisture so that
it doesn't concentrate, and resists heat related degradation that
leads eventually to increased compressibility. Glycol brake fluid is
clearly extremely forgiving, maintenance-wise. In fact, vehicle
manufacturers use it because they are quite aware that the average
owner will never change his brake fluid, let alone do so at the
recommended maximum two-year intervals!
There are disadvantages to glycol brake fluid however. For one thing,
the very attribute that enables it to accept moisture actually causes
it to attract moisture, as any alcohol product will. For this reason,
brake fluid suppliers recommend that only small amounts be kept on
hand, and that a tight seal be kept on any unused fluid. (In the old
days, it used to be available only in metal cans.) Another
disadvantage, and a significant one, is that glycol fluid is
chemically caustic, meaning that it damages other materials. It
effortlessly removes paint and does strange things to plastic. (Even
after it is wiped off, glycol fluid causes catalytic embrittlement, a
chemical reaction on the molecular level that leads quickly to deep
cracks. The ABS plastic used in motorcycle bodywork is especially
susceptible.)
Silicone Brake Fluids
In years past, all brake fluids were glycol. Then D.O.T. 5, a silicone
fluid having a higher temperature rating, emerged, initially to meet
the higher boiling point requirements of racing use. (Race car brake
systems include oil-cooler-like heat exchangers and ceramic pads.)
Silicone fluid was able to withstand the most heat of any brake fluid,
so it earned a reputation as a racing brake fluid. However, silicone
brake fluid has properties very different from glycol fluid, and has
its own pros and cons. On the advantage side, silicone fluid will not
harm paint or plastic, and does not aggressively attract additional
moisture as glycol fluid does. On the disadvantage side however,
silicone fluid aerates easily. Harley-Davison, one of the sole current
OEM users of silicone fluid, warns buyers to let the fluid sit at
least an hour before using it. The trip home in the saddlebag is
enough to aerate silicone brake fluid until it looks like a freshly
poured soft drink. Silicone fluid is also slightly more compressible
than glycol fluid, does not change color to tip the user to its
moisture content, and worst of all, neither accepts or disperses
moisture, making systems using it more corrosion prone, and requiring
much more frequent fluid changes. Silicone brake fluid also lacks
glycol fluid's naturally occuring lubricity, making it incompatible
with the mechanical valving in some antilock braking systems.
A third brake fluid category could be included, if we were to consider
bicycles. Their hydraulic brake systems use mineral oil, that is, baby
oil. About the same consistency as glycol fluid, mineral oil is still
not the best thing around paint, but in most other respects it is
fairly non-corrosive. Like silicone fluid however, it does not deal
well with moisture.
Which is Best?
As you may have noticed by now, instead of looking at brake fluid as
D.O.T. 3/4 versus D.O.T. 5, we should see the issue as glycol versus
silicone. This represents the larger division of type, and comparing
D.O.T. ratings just isn't significant, especially since D.O.T. 5
fluids are now available in glycol formulation. Glycol fluids have
improved until they now meet D.O.T. 5 standards. D.O.T. 5.1 for
example, is a glycol fluid designed for certain ABS systems having
mechanically cycling proportion valves. So now we have D.O.T. 3, 4, 5,
and 5.1, with all but the 5 designation being glycol, while the 5 is
silicone.
The real way to compare brake fluids is by deciding what is important
to you. Is silicone fluid's safety around paint and plastic more
important than yearly changes and a softer action? Its higher boiling
point, the reason for its development and at one time its strong suit,
is now academic, since D.O.T. 5 glycol (5.1) fluids are now widely
available. Glycol fluid therefore is, for most of us, the better brake
fluid, and the best just may be the 5.1, if the highest boiling point,
which is really a moisture tolerance measurement, matters.
On the practical side, beware that glycol and silicone brake fluids
are hugely incompatible with each other. Mixing even small amounts
will create a sludge that looks amazingly like Italian salad dressing
and is about as effective as a brake fluid -- meaning, not. Of further
consideration is that, in some cases, the hardware designed for one
fluid will not accept the other. Brake caliper and master cylinder
seals, hoses, and other parts won't always work correctly when the
type of fluid is changed.
I'm currently using Motul 600 in all my customer's bikes...
Motul 600
Racing Brake Fluid 600 Factory Line 100% Synthetic Fluid –
DOT 4 For hydraulic actuated brake and clutch systems Very high
boiling point : 312°C / 594 °F
Motul DOT 5.1 Brake Fluid Long life 100% Synthetic Fluid For hydraulic
actuated brake and clutch systems DOT 5.1 NON SILICONE BASE Dry
boiling point 522ºF
Dry boiling point Wet boiling point 3% mositure
DOT 3 205 °C (401 °F) 140 °C (284 °F) Glycol
DOT 4 230 °C (446 °F) 155 °C (311 °F) Glycol
DOT 5 260 °C (500 °F) 180 °C (356 °F) Silicone
DOT 5.1 270 °C (518 °F) 190 °C (374 °F) Glycol
Mine had the same exact smegma in it when i flushed it first time this spring, just not that much. I bought the seals for the slave hopefully doing that within the next week, should be fun as the reservoir level was slowly going down over the years. Hopefully things clean up with a little effort for ya.
lovely, looks like I have some work cut out for me. Thanks guys for the info.
Can you elaborate on the snap ring pliers, trying to picture it from the diagram but i dont see it.
Yikes. I would strip that bike down to nothing and check everything from the front wheel bearings to the license plate bulb.
I have been down that road twice now. Use snap ring pliers to remove the piston and clean it. Clean the reservoir and pay special attention to the very small return port. Flush the line (I used compressed air). Clean the slave. Reassemble.
https://m.flickr.com...57633391186663/
My bad, i see now you are refering to the master piston not slave removal. Any issues reusing the master piston and cups? It appears they do not mention the return port, nice heads up. What did you use to clean things, brake clean or just new fluid per manual? Flushing a line with compressed air, make sure your tanks have been drained, seen lots of condensation come out a air hose, that might worry me.
Looks like a full rebuild to me. Take the master and slave cylinder apart, clean the rubber parts with a rag, and use liberal amounts of brake cleaner on everything else. Not sure how to make sure the line is clean other than liberal flushing after the rebuild, but that's just going to push any gunk back into the slave.
I hope your brake isn't that bad
Here:
What kind of pliers are those and/or where can they be bought? I need a QUALITY set - the ones I bought to pull snap rings out of the idler wheels on my sleds are so-so at best, and they're the best of all of the ones I could find for under $100 at local stores.
Thank you BLS. Your dissertation is very much appreciated.
Considering the condition of the clutch mc (possibly brake master cylinders, front and rear), plus the clutch slave cylinder and the brake calipers. I don't know that I'd be satisfied all the muck was cleared out w/out dismantling the entire system. There are hundreds of nooks and crannies where that, sight unseen, are impossible to verify. Can that muck even be pushed through a bleed valve? R3~
I always thought that the brake system was pretty much a closed system. That the "notch" was to allow air behind the rubber gasket in the master cylinder to allow it to move when the brake fluid lowers due to
brake pad wear. Seems to me that if that "notch" was open to the atmosphere that you would also have a bit of fluid seepage, but I've never seen that. And all containers of brake fluid say to not used them if they've
been left exposed to air due to the absorption of water into the fluid. Also the rubber gasket wouldn't follow the brake fluid as the level lowered if the system wasn't sealed.
I also operated under the assumption that the absorption of water into the brake fluid could cause reduced braking in extreme conditions due to the water boiling and causing steam which would introduce vapor
into the system and reduce the compressibility of the brake fluid. I don't believe hydrogen has anything to do with the problem.
Pretty good information, just nitpicking.
I always thought that the brake system was pretty much a closed system. That the "notch" was to allow air behind the rubber gasket in the master cylinder to allow it to move when the brake fluid lowers due to
brake pad wear. Seems to me that if that "notch" was open to the atmosphere that you would also have a bit of fluid seepage, but I've never seen that. And all containers of brake fluid say to not used them if they've
been left exposed to air due to the absorption of water into the fluid. Also the rubber gasket wouldn't follow the brake fluid as the level lowered if the system wasn't sealed.
I also operated under the assumption that the absorption of water into the brake fluid could cause reduced braking in extreme conditions due to the water boiling and causing steam which would introduce vapor
into the system and reduce the compressibility of the brake fluid. I don't believe hydrogen has anything to do with the problem.
Pretty good information, just nitpicking.
I was thinking the same thing about the "diaphragm" keeping the brake fluid separate from the atmosphere. This begs the question, where does the moisture actually come from? I've just assumed it comes from moisture ingress past the seals over time due to imperfect sealing at all pistons in the system.
I'm going to go and buy a used master and slave cylinder. Ugh, I'm kind of disapointed right now because I know the previous owner went to a dealer to get a service, I verififed it by calling the dealer. How they did not catch this is beyond me.
that's on my list for stuff later on. I know the bike used to reside near the beach so there's definite corrosion in certain parts. I'll be replacing bolts and screws as I work my way in.
It might be easier and less time consuming to just replace the entire system end-to-end with one that was looked after.
Can you elaborate on the snap ring pliers, trying to picture it from the diagram but i dont see it.
He's referring to the snap ring that holds the piston in place in your clutch master cylinder. If you remove the boot, you'll be able to see it if you shine a light in there. Snap ring pliers or a dental pick will get it out if it isn't rusted in place. Personally, I'd use a new kit and rebuild if I was going to remove it, but that's your choice. There's a good chance that the guts in there are from the factory and therefore have seen better days. If you see traces of dried brake fluid crud under the boot or seeping out, then I would definitely rebuild with a new kit.
What you've found is quite common and proof that flushing the brake system with fresh fluid is a good idea every couple of years.
I always thought that the brake system was pretty much a closed system. That the "notch" was to allow air behind the rubber gasket in the master cylinder to allow it to move when the brake fluid lowers due to
brake pad wear. Seems to me that if that "notch" was open to the atmosphere that you would also have a bit of fluid seepage, but I've never seen that. And all containers of brake fluid say to not used them if they've
been left exposed to air due to the absorption of water into the fluid. Also the rubber gasket wouldn't follow the brake fluid as the level lowered if the system wasn't sealed.
I also operated under the assumption that the absorption of water into the brake fluid could cause reduced braking in extreme conditions due to the water boiling and causing steam which would introduce vapor
into the system and reduce the compressibility of the brake fluid. I don't believe hydrogen has anything to do with the problem.
Pretty good information, just nitpicking.
I was thinking the same thing about the "diaphragm" keeping the brake fluid separate from the atmosphere. This begs the question, where does the moisture actually come from? I've just assumed it comes from moisture ingress past the seals over time due to imperfect sealing at all pistons in the system.
That's my thought too, gets past the seals. Maybe most of it from dampness from riding in the rain, and water getting past the seals in the calipers? Maybe if
you ride in the rain a lot you'll get more contamination? Can someone from Blighty tell us if their brake/clutch fluid gets contaminated and has to be changed frequently?
Here:
What kind of pliers are those and/or where can they be bought? I need a QUALITY set - the ones I bought to pull snap rings out of the idler wheels on my sleds are so-so at best, and they're the best of all of the ones I could find for under $100 at local stores.
The set I got was off Amazon. Never buy ones with the ends that you can change out.
Here is what I got.. http://www.amazon.co...nap ring pliers
If you need heavier duty, call a Snap On guy.
Here:
What kind of pliers are those and/or where can they be bought? I need a QUALITY set - the ones I bought to pull snap rings out of the idler wheels on my sleds are so-so at best, and they're the best of all of the ones I could find for under $100 at local stores.
The set I got was off Amazon. Never buy ones with the ends that you can change out.
Here is what I got.. http://www.amazon.co...nap ring pliers
If you need heavier duty, call a Snap On guy.
or go to sears.
The sears ones are terrible. The photo that was posted is of a fairly substantial looking set. The ones off of Amazon don't look very beefy.
The sears ones are terrible. The photo that was posted is of a fairly substantial looking set. The ones off of Amazon don't look very beefy.
Call up a local snap-on guy. You can get a good set ordered through them, it'll cost ya though.
How much more work is it to just thrown on a new braided line? If i decide to rebuild the master and slave seems logical to just put a new line in. Recommended retailers? Oh snap rings on idler wheels just suck, definitely keep some cold refreshments around.
Let's begin at the beginning. A brake system is not a
sealed system. A physics principle known as Boyle's Law in a
round-about way establishes that a fluid cannot leave a container
unless air can follow it. If the vent in your gas tank plugs up, for
example, fuel will eventually stop flowing. Similarly, a brake system.......I'm currently using Motul 600 in all my customer's bikes...
Motul 600
Racing Brake Fluid 600 Factory Line 100% Synthetic Fluid –
DOT 4 For hydraulic actuated brake and clutch systems Very high
boiling point : 312°C / 594 °F
Motul DOT 5.1 Brake Fluid Long life 100% Synthetic Fluid For hydraulic
actuated brake and clutch systems DOT 5.1 NON SILICONE BASE Dry
boiling point 522ºFDry boiling point Wet boiling point 3% mositure
DOT 3 205 °C (401 °F) 140 °C (284 °F) Glycol
DOT 4 230 °C (446 °F) 155 °C (311 °F) Glycol
DOT 5 260 °C (500 °F) 180 °C (356 °F) Silicone
DOT 5.1 270 °C (518 °F) 190 °C (374 °F) Glycol
I was just about the say the same! :wink:
Thank you BLS. Your dissertation is very much appreciated.
Considering the condition of the clutch mc (possibly brake master cylinders, front and rear), plus the clutch slave cylinder and the brake calipers. I don't know that I'd be satisfied all the muck was cleared out w/out dismantling the entire system. There are hundreds of nooks and crannies where that, sight unseen, are impossible to verify. Can that muck even be pushed through a bleed valve? R3~
You're welcome... you can start by cleaning the reservoir and adding fresh DOT 5.1... heat the engine up to operating temp because the warmer
the fluid the more flow... pump and bleed and see what is flushed out... test hop it and then make your mind to rebuild the system or not...
Let's begin at the beginning. A brake system is not a
sealed system. A physics principle known as Boyle's Law in a
round-about way establishes that a fluid cannot leave a container
unless air can follow it. If the vent in your gas tank plugs up, for
example, fuel will eventually stop flowing. Similarly, a brake system
is, like a fuel tank, vented to atmosphere, usually at its highest
point, the reservoir. (Ever notice that little notch?) Thus a brake
system has continuous access to air.
This is not entirely accurate.
Boyle's law states that as the volume that a gas occupies increases, its pressure will decrease. And, as the volume decreases, the pressure will increase.
In your example of the plugged gas tank vent, you now have a fully sealed and RIGID system (nothing flexes). So, as fuel exits the line in the bottom of the tank, with no air able to enter, the "pocket" of air above the fuel level will attempt to grow larger. Boyle's law states that, for this to occur, the pressure of that air pocket must decrease.
When "enough" of the fuel has been removed from the tank, the pressure exerted by the pocket of air will become negative (meaning that the fuel is attempting to pull away from it, causing the pressure to drop below a level which is possible). This will, in turn, pull back against the fuel and prevent it from further being depleted in the tank once the negative pressure of the pocket of air is sufficient to match the positive pressure of whatever is attempting to "pull" the fuel out (gravity, a fuel pump, etc).
The brake system is sealed, but it is not RIGID. So, as the fluid level drops in the master cylinder, there is no need to force the pocket of air to increase because the gasket (a "bladder") is able to provide the necessary 'lack of negative pressure' because the outside is vented, allowing the bladder to move with the brake fluid level.
Hmmmm...so Boyle's Law has nothing to do with heating water above 212* F (100* C)....who knew?
The sears ones are terrible. The photo that was posted is of a fairly substantial looking set. The ones off of Amazon don't look very beefy.
weird.. i may have an older one as it looks IDENTICAL to my snap on... . however its craftsman, meaning guaranteed for life. just like snap off , and it cost less and you dont have to wait for the truck
Depending on your skill level, it's not hard but it is time consuming. When I did the 6 Gen with HEL lines, it took me most of my Saturday and part of my Sunday, but I started late and didn't feel like working too late into the evening. My 5 Gen I did in less than a day, but I knew before hand what I was in for. Bleeding is another time consumer but with sipped bleeders and/or a Mity-vac it quickens the pace.How much more work is it to just thrown on a new braided line? If i decide to rebuild the master and slave seems logical to just put a new line in. Recommended retailers? Oh snap rings on idler wheels just suck, definitely keep some cold refreshments around.
This is how my Voyager was that I bought for $250. It was sitting for 7 years and this is pretty much how the clutch and brake line looked.
I basically scrubbed the inside of the reservoir, disconnected the line and ran brake cleaner through it. Bled and flushed a few times and that was that.
The clutch was a little more problematic since a relief port letting clutch fluid back into it kept getting clogged a few times. Clean as a whistle now, but I did go through a lot of fluids.
Depending on your skill level, it's not hard but it is time consuming. When I did the 6 Gen with HEL lines, it took me most of my Saturday and part of my Sunday, but I started late and didn't feel like working too late into the evening. My 5 Gen I did in less than a day, but I knew before hand what I was in for. Bleeding is another time consumer but with sipped bleeders and/or a Mity-vac it quickens the pace.How much more work is it to just thrown on a new braided line? If i decide to rebuild the master and slave seems logical to just put a new line in. Recommended retailers? Oh snap rings on idler wheels just suck, definitely keep some cold refreshments around.
Expect to pay $200+ for decent quality lines but there are others that can be found for less. My HEL lines were $400 and $449 for 6th and 5th Gen respectively (both with marching clutch line). The one thing I like about the HEL lines is that the banjo bolts and banjos themselves, are both stainless steel, unless you get the colored banjo bolts, those are aluminum but the colored banjos are stainless steel.
You are refering to all lines correct? Yeah i just mean the clutch line, the brake kit looks like a major PITA. My recent purchase of a mightyvac just disappointed in quality, fittings were junk made it a pain to use, not like what i remember using in the past. But as far as stepping outside my comfort zone my tools that i still cant afford for the starter valve sync arrived, planned on hitting that while i got things apart for the clutch.
Hmmmm...so Boyle's Law has nothing to do with heating water above 212* F (100* C)....who knew?
And I thought water boyled at 100C..... :goofy:
The one thing I like about the HEL lines is that the banjo bolts and banjos themselves, are both stainless steel, unless you get the colored banjo bolts, those are aluminum but the colored banjos are stainless steel.
The exact reason the F2 has HEL instead of any other brand. And they were priced the same as everyone else. Aluminum eventually corrodes, which is why I had to replace the existing lines.
Yes, I was referring to all lines. The HEL clutch line is only $50 on its own. BTW, use the term term "Mity-Vac" to mean any vacuum type bleeder tool. The current 'Mity-Vac' is plastic and is probably of lesser quality now. When I first tried to use mine (Actual Mity-Vac brand), the cover of the canister did not seal properly and it could not create a vacuum and therefore did not work. Once I figured out what was wrong and got it to seal, it's been working like a champ.You are refering to all lines correct? Yeah i just mean the clutch line, the brake kit looks like a major PITA. My recent purchase of a mightyvac just disappointed in quality, fittings were junk made it a pain to use, not like what i remember using in the past. But as far as stepping outside my comfort zone my tools that i still cant afford for the starter valve sync arrived, planned on hitting that while i got things apart for the clutch.Depending on your skill level, it's not hard but it is time consuming. When I did the 6 Gen with HEL lines, it took me most of my Saturday and part of my Sunday, but I started late and didn't feel like working too late into the evening. My 5 Gen I did in less than a day, but I knew before hand what I was in for. Bleeding is another time consumer but with sipped bleeders and/or a Mity-vac it quickens the pace.How much more work is it to just thrown on a new braided line? If i decide to rebuild the master and slave seems logical to just put a new line in. Recommended retailers? Oh snap rings on idler wheels just suck, definitely keep some cold refreshments around.
Expect to pay $200+ for decent quality lines but there are others that can be found for less. My HEL lines were $400 and $449 for 6th and 5th Gen respectively (both with marching clutch line). The one thing I like about the HEL lines is that the banjo bolts and banjos themselves, are both stainless steel, unless you get the colored banjo bolts, those are aluminum but the colored banjos are stainless steel.
I have an expensive Craftsman metal "mity-vac" and it sucks....or rather does not suck enough when in use.
If you have a small air compressor then you should look at the cheap $25 harbor freight brake bleeding kit, they are worth twice what I paid for the metal mity-vac.
I have an expensive Craftsman metal "mity-vac" and it sucks....or rather does not suck enough when in use.
If you have a small air compressor then you should look at the cheap $25 harbor freight brake bleeding kit, they are worth twice what I paid for the metal mity-vac.
we are talking about snap ring plyers if you using a mightvac on a a bike.. step a way from the bike and put it down!! stop wasting you time with those stupid things!!
grab your fav brew or drink of choice!! :beer:
bleeding the brake lines
.. its so damned easy a cave man can do it.
1st the the squeeze the lever over night crap... is crap!!
placing the system under pressure doesnt help move bubbles.
follow the manual for linked brake bleed order..
take a clear tube. and place on slave nipple. it should be snug or tight..
angle bars so the clutch MC is level.. take the top off..
.now angle bar so the the mc is angled with the banjo bolt at the lowest spot.
loosen nipple at the slave.. sit back and have a beer.. GRAVITY will do its job..
no squeezen , no bitchen , no yellin , no screaming , no fuzz, no muss.
have a sip.!! :beer:
look as fluid enters clear tube.. any bubble? or just fluid? add new fluid to the mc as it gets LOW...
tighten nipple when you feel enough fluid has gone through.. normally about 1/3 cup for me.
have a sip! :beer: . repeat with other side brake .
place cap on MC. squeeze lever. does the brake firm up? wheel stop? good!
if not....
tighten cap on MC ..remove MC FROM BAR.. angle so the hose is at the lowest spot. tap hard at the bolt with a screwdriver handle to move any bubbles trapped in the bolt area...which always seems to be the problem area..
have a sip :beer:
repeat on clutch..
place in 1st gear and give a squeeze.. it will not be anywhere close to the firmness of a brake.. does the bike roll? presto your done.
if doing a cleaned out or a new system.. prewetting internails with brake fluid before assembling will make bleeding time shorter. :beer:
Wow!! All this time with all my excellent results and I've been doing it all wrong. Who'd a thunk. :happy:
More than than one way to skin a cat
More than than one way to skin a cat
Absolutely! :fing02:
Yes, I was referring to all lines. The HEL clutch line is only $50 on its own. BTW, use the term term "Mity-Vac" to mean any vacuum type bleeder tool. The current 'Mity-Vac' is plastic and is probably of lesser quality now. When I first tried to use mine (Actual Mity-Vac brand), the cover of the canister did not seal properly and it could not create a vacuum and therefore did not work. Once I figured out what was wrong and got it to seal, it's been working like a champ.You are refering to all lines correct? Yeah i just mean the clutch line, the brake kit looks like a major PITA. My recent purchase of a mightyvac just disappointed in quality, fittings were junk made it a pain to use, not like what i remember using in the past. But as far as stepping outside my comfort zone my tools that i still cant afford for the starter valve sync arrived, planned on hitting that while i got things apart for the clutch.Depending on your skill level, it's not hard but it is time consuming. When I did the 6 Gen with HEL lines, it took me most of my Saturday and part of my Sunday, but I started late and didn't feel like working too late into the evening. My 5 Gen I did in less than a day, but I knew before hand what I was in for. Bleeding is another time consumer but with sipped bleeders and/or a Mity-vac it quickens the pace.How much more work is it to just thrown on a new braided line? If i decide to rebuild the master and slave seems logical to just put a new line in. Recommended retailers? Oh snap rings on idler wheels just suck, definitely keep some cold refreshments around.
Expect to pay $200+ for decent quality lines but there are others that can be found for less. My HEL lines were $400 and $449 for 6th and 5th Gen respectively (both with marching clutch line). The one thing I like about the HEL lines is that the banjo bolts and banjos themselves, are both stainless steel, unless you get the colored banjo bolts, those are aluminum but the colored banjos are stainless steel.
Not everyone here was talking about snap ring pliers so step back from the adult beverages for a minute and comprehend what was asked...
I have an expensive Craftsman metal "mity-vac" and it sucks....or rather does not suck enough when in use.
If you have a small air compressor then you should look at the cheap $25 harbor freight brake bleeding kit, they are worth twice what I paid for the metal mity-vac.
we are talking about snap ring plyers if you using a mightvac on a a bike.. step a way from the bike and put it down!! stop wasting you time with those stupid things!!
grab your fav brew or drink of choice!! :beer:
bleeding the brake lines
.. its so damned easy a cave man can do it.
1st the the squeeze the lever over night crap... is crap!!
placing the system under pressure doesnt help move bubbles.follow the manual for linked brake bleed order..
....
I am sure your way works great when you are being paid by the hour to work on someone elses bike and not rely on those brakes for your life but I will continue to perform my "squeeze the lever overnight crap" because my brakes are the best linked brake feel that I have ever experienced.
I am not sure what the heat transfer and fluid flow course curriculum that you were exposed to may have taught you but placing a zip tie over the front brake lever, thereby allowing the valve from the master cylinder to remain open, does not keep pressure on the system that would prevent air bubbles from rising to the master cylinder.
Trying your open the bleed valve and watch the fluid drain out while consuming beer had me through the better part of Red Brick flat and still nowhere when I first attempted this on my 5th Gen...we don't even want to talk about the amount of air your way could potentially introduce into the linked brake system at the rear if the person doing this doesn't have three hands and 4 eyes to keep everything just so.
Feel free to continue on about your snap ring pliers and beers. For me and many others either a hand vacuum pump (like the mity vac) or a similar air compressor driven vacuum is the better choice.
I guess I am just not as good as you in doing it that way.
I had the same issue with my old Hayabusa when I had braided lines installed.
Ordinarily I do my own work, but at the time I was working long hours, so...
The shop I took it to put the wrong diaphragm in, so it didn't seal properly.
Later, I noticed the clutch was getting hard to disengage, and on inspection, I found the same crud as the photo above.
Besides rather angry, I now had a big cleanup job ahead after the correct diaphragm came in.
It look quite a lot of bleeding to flush the crud out, and that was the clutch.
I cringe thinking what a job it would be on a linked brake system (which I don't care for, but it is what it is).
So i cleaned up the slave, i was surprised how much the piston was pitted, had i known I'd have replaced it. It had a little wear where it must have been binding. Got that back on, new braided line on and i went to rehab the m\c and after disassembly i realized i ordered the brake m/c rebuild kit...dammit! Now i wait again.
Edit: i should mention that there was only a little bit of shmegma in the slave, nothing like the m/c before the flush earlier this season. So does that mean crap floats up or is that shmegma sludge what brake fluid slowly turns into over time as it begins absorb water? The outter slave piston and the peg hole it went into was surprisingly clean.
I flushed the slave when the bike was new, couple thousand miles, (the stuff was nasty). since that time, Ive only drained and refilled the reservoir a couple times per year, well over 100,000 miles, clutch has been flawless, and its take 11,000 rpm fullthrottle shifts on many occasions.
So new line, m/c rebuild kit and rebuilt slave.....smooth! It feels "almost" like riding with the bleeder valve open.
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