Throttle Body Isolator Boots

I've had to remove the throttle body to gain access to a problem I discoverd changing the coolant. (pic to be posted)

My question is, since my bike is 14 years old do you folks replace the isolators if you have removed the throttle body?

I will replace the coolant hoses associated and the thermostat of course. ?

(Edit)

Upon removing the coolant recovery tank I found an unoccupied mouse nest in the "V" of the engine. "Oh nooo!" Sure enough the furry infiltrator did this...

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If the throttle body boots are not cracked or hardened, you can keep on using them.

Thanks veefer. I have always replaced them on the 1st gen Magnas but was curious to know if newer products lasted much longer.

Il

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A bit of good news....I found a harness on ebay. $15.00 shipped. :)

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The boots need to be replaced.....bummer.

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The boots on my 98 with 74K on it aren't cracked, but they feel like they are made of ABS! New ones ready to go on. Nice 'n flexible.

I am in process of replacing my coolant pipes and clean my injectors. Found a similar problem - the wires were in similar start ... i just created new wires and soldered them on.

the boots are heard...i had purchased new after market ones sometime back so ...they came in handy.

I just put new ones on mine, TB popped right on. Was worth the $25 or so for new ones.

how difficult was it to replace the boots? I know on the 6th gen I have seen some posts about it being a real pita to get the TB off the boots.

I bought new boots and new clamps for my 6th gen. I just don't want to take it all apart just for that........I have a new thermostat as well and so I am sorting of waiting until i need to replace the thermostat and then just do it all at once.

On the 6th gen at least, there is very specific gaps for the clamps, one spec for the lower clamps (engine) and one for the upper clamps (TB). If you over or under tighten these I have heard you could have leaks.

signal

how difficult was it to replace the boots? I know on the 6th gen I have seen some posts about it being a real pita to get the TB off the boots.

I bought new boots and new clamps for my 6th gen. I just don't want to take it all apart just for that........I have a new thermostat as well and so I am sorting of waiting until i need to replace the thermostat and then just do it all at once.

On the 6th gen at least, there is very specific gaps for the clamps, one spec for the lower clamps (engine) and one for the upper clamps (TB). If you over or under tighten these I have heard you could have leaks.

The longer you wait the harder it gets. A liberal application of WD40, and a heat gun will help.

I was surprised to find my thermostat in good shape, but I replaced it anyway. I found more nasty corrosion on the water neck o-ring grooves, and the o-rings were pretty much done. I imagine it gets pretty damn hot in there when the temp sensor is reading 245°F.

I had the entire engine apart so it just made sense to replace all that stuff on a 16 year old bike.

vfrcapn

I just put new ones on mine, TB popped right on. Was worth the $25 or so for new ones.

$25.00 for OEM boots? That's half what I paid....ouch.

signal

how difficult was it to replace the boots? I know on the 6th gen I have seen some posts about it being a real pita to get the TB off the boots.

I bought new boots and new clamps for my 6th gen. I just don't want to take it all apart just for that........I have a new thermostat as well and so I am sorting of waiting until i need to replace the thermostat and then just do it all at once.

On the 6th gen at least, there is very specific gaps for the clamps, one spec for the lower clamps (engine) and one for the upper clamps (TB). If you over or under tighten these I have heard you could have leaks.

Now I'm wondering if I should have the injectors checked....how much would that cost?

I had mine cleaned/tested by a place right hear me, it was $20 per injector. If you just want flow testing its $12.50 per injector (the cleaning however includes flow testing, an new seals, etc):

http://fuelinjectorclinic.com/fuel-injector-cleaning

Wow!! That's a very reasonable price. Did you remove the injectors yourself or give them the throttle body with injectors still attached?

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JeffInFranklinTN

vfrcapn

I just put new ones on mine, TB popped right on. Was worth the $25 or so for new ones.

$25.00 for OEM boots? That's half what I paid....ouch.

I mis-remembered, they were $12.11 ea. I bought two pages worth of parts, forget the details at my age. :wink:

JeffInFranklinTN

Wow!! That's a very reasonable price. Did you remove the injectors yourself or give them the throttle body with injectors still attached?

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I pulled them myself. Once you remove the air box, the injectors are super easy. It included 2 of the 3 rubber seals that are used on our injectors, I think the "cushions" aren't included, so I had bought those. There are many injector places that are mobile too, they will come to your house. I am pretty sure the place I used you can mail them your injectors and they will mail them back as well.

For the record, mine were tested with a clean bill of health. I was (And still am) trying to nail down some surging issues I am having, and so I replaced all the fuel rail seals, Fuel Pressure Regulator, Fuel Filter, and had the injectors tested/cleaned, as just a regular part of my troubleshooting.

Of course, our bikes rely heavily on electronics (fuel injection), and so any weird electrical gremlins can also cause weird symptoms that may appear to be fuel system related. I can say positively my fuel system is good to go...

Thought I found a local guy but he sold his company two years ago. So today I shipped mine off to a company in NY.

http://injectorrepair.com/injector-service/

$17.00 each sonic cleaning, flow test, seals, etc. $73.75 includes return shipping and usually shipped back within 24 hrs of receiving them.

Might as well have peace of mind.

Jeffrey

Its a good idea to perform preventive maintenance anytime you have accesses under the throttle bodies..

Mr.RC45 at 50K miles mark before and after

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Not only were all the throttle bodies boots replaced all the hoses and O rings were also replaced for obvious reasons...

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I am hoping that having the injectors cleaned will give it a smoother throttle response and fix a slight "spark knock" when you are taking off from a dead stop or blipping the throttle. (Used to be worse) I suspect at least one injector is the culprit. Although the bike averages 41 mpg

Got the injectors back today. He said they were good as is when he got them. The flow rate balance of 4℅ which is within specs. After cleaning, they now have a flow rate balance of 2 1\2%

Maybe I'll have it back together by tomorrow night. :)

Installed new battery this morning. Started it up...flooded itself and died. Got it started again and will stay running but is difficult to rev up (spits and sputters but no back fire). Temp gauge flashing at 270 but it's not over heating. Remains at high idle. (Wax unit model) Pretty sure air is out of the cooling system. Hoses at the water pump are hot and both radiators are hot.

Any suggestions?

Temp gauge at 270 sounds a bit insane.........maybe thats a bad reading/sensor? Where does that number come from the ECT?

lol That's what it was showing on the instrument panel. It started flashing at 250. Within two minutes after starting it was over 220 and kept climbing. Cooling fan never came on and I know it is woks. I haven't touched the wires for the fan.The FI light does not stay on or flash.

I need help.....please.

Jeffrey

lol That's what it was showing on the instrument panel. It started flashing at 250. Within two minutes after starting it was over 220 and kept climbing. Cooling fan never came on and I know it is woks. I haven't touched the wires for the fan.The FI light does not stay on or flash.

I need help.....please.

Jeffrey

Bad luck Jeff. The temp sender is screwed in to the back of the front head left cylinder under that darned throttle body. I think you've got an electrical fault with the temp sensor wires as I doubt the engine could get that hot that quick. At 2k warm up I reckon it takes my VFR 2 minutes to get to 120F. The FI system uses the temp measure to adjust fuelling so a screwy temp will mess with fueling.

The fan uses its own switch on the left radiator and is not dependent on the coolant temp sensor.

Just seems so weird you would have an issue with the temp sensor after just being in there. Do you think maybe you knocked something loose, stretched/cut a wire or something like that? Sucks you may have to take the TB off again........I guess if there is anything else down there you haven't replaced (hoses, o rings) may want to just do that this time since its such a chore to get in there.

signal

Just seems so weird you would have an issue with the temp sensor after just being in there. Do you think maybe you knocked something loose, stretched/cut a wire or something like that? Sucks you may have to take the TB off again........I guess if there is anything else down there you haven't replaced (hoses, o rings) may want to just do that this time since its such a chore to get in there.

Bike was running fine without any electrical issues before I tore it apart. :(

I have replaced hoses and t-stat while I was in there.

Is there an elecrical test you can do to check the temp sensor?

This is just not fair. :(

Terry

Bad luck Jeff. The temp sender is screwed in to the back of the front head left cylinder under that darned throttle body. I think you've got an electrical fault with the temp sensor wires as I doubt the engine could get that hot that quick. At 2k warm up I reckon it takes my VFR 2 minutes to get to 120F. The FI system uses the temp measure to adjust fuelling so a screwy temp will mess with fueling.

The fan uses its own switch on the left radiator and is not dependent on the coolant temp sensor.

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Here you go, hope it helps, best of luck.

As I read the instructions, it says the resistance of the sensor drops as temperature increases. If you have a short in the wires going to the sensor the resistance would drop and display an artificially high temp like you are seeing, so I'd suggest your harness is more likely the problem, rather than the sensor. Maybe a pinched wire?

Would this also play into the high idle?

Gentlemen, thank you for the support and input.

More input is welcome, welcome, welcome.

It's gonna be a late night...sigh.

I'm not sure about why you'd get a high idle. That should only be controlled by the wax unit which is moving the starter valves, which admit air to the engine when the throttle is closed. The wax unit should close the starter valves when the temperature is at a normal operating level.

The manual states that "The volume of fuel injected is compensated according to the coolant temperature" and I assume it adds less fuel when hot (or in your case, "thinks" it is hot...) so would run lean, but I don't think that would change the idle.

JeffInFranklinTN

Are we allowed to curse on here? :)

Yes, apparently they are called "Garage Words".

Keep your chin up!

It was the temp sensor connector. I should have taken a closer look at it. Geez, surely I couldn't have done that. So I just taped up the wires on the orignal harness and used it.

Seems to rev better before I took it apart. :-)

I'm thinking the isolater boots were leaking before hand. I had to back the starter valves out to get the idle back down. It was idling at 3000 rpm. Maybe I shouldn't have done that. I hadn't touched anything on the wax unit. I will resync them tomorrow .

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just curious, what makes you think the boots were leaking (symptoms)? I am guessing your saying its running much better now, I wonder if that had to do with the starter valve sync more than boot replacement. Did the boots show any evidence of leaking? Were the insulator bands good and snug on them? When you attached them, did you gap them to the specified gap in the service manual (insulator bands)?

Get some sleep Jeff .

signal

just curious, what makes you think the boots were leaking (symptoms)? I am guessing your saying its running much better now, I wonder if that had to do with the starter valve sync more than boot replacement. Did the boots show any evidence of leaking? Were the insulator bands good and snug on them? When you attached them, did you gap them to the specified gap in the service manual (insulator bands)?

Still haven't got this right yet. Took it apart to check the wax unit. Wax unit is okay. So put back together and ran it but it took a long time for it to slooowly reach normal idle.

On the wax unit...does it matter how the coolant hoses connect to it?

Standing on the left side of bike facing the wax unit, the hose coming off the engine block is connected to the right side nipple on the wax unit and the hose coming off the t-stat is connected to left side nipple. Is this correct? Does it matter? I can't synch the starter valves until this is working like it's suppose to .

Jeffrey

is the starter rod or whatever its called, that thin metal rod that connects to the wax unit, bent? Its easy to bend those things screwing with the vacuum hoses and all that.

Also if memory serves me right the wax unit has white paint on its adjuster screws, not sure if you can mess with those or if you do how to know its "correct".

signal

is the starter rod or whatever its called, that thin metal rod that connects to the wax unit, bent? Its easy to bend those things screwing with the vacuum hoses and all that.

Also if memory serves me right the wax unit has white paint on its adjuster screws, not sure if you can mess with those or if you do how to know its "correct".

Weird that it would function normally and now operate very slowly.

I have checked the "acuator" for the starter valves(what the rod attaches to) and it moves freely no fuel lines or hoses obstructing it

I have read comments about them not working correctly after a coolant change.(searching Google)

I will order a rebuild kit for it.

i have heard about people getting hydro lock near the wax unit, basically an air bubble in the system that can be difficult to remove, i wonder if that could be the case

Will the bike run with the airbox removed?

JeffInFranklinTN

Will the bike run with the airbox removed?

It will run, but if the sensors on the airbox are disconnected when the engine is run, it will set FI codes.

Shutting the bike off and then reconnecting the air box and then restarting the bike will clear that, right? [image: emoji51.png]

Yes !

Switchblade

Yes !

Sorry to hear that .

lol me too David me too. I can see a wet hose that drops down along the front of the engine. It connects near the bottom on the front of the engine. ????

Radiator hose ?

Switchblade

Radiator hose ?

Is it the fuel tank air vent? It terminates in a loop of metal at the left side of the engine

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Terry

Is it the fuel tank air vent? It terminates in a loop of metal at the left side of the engine

It will be lt later tonight before I can take a look and post pic. Bowling night.

It would smell like gas if that the one .

there are two pipes routed from the Tank ... one is overflow while other is a vent.

AnikMankar

there are two pipes routed from the Tank ... one is overflow while other is a vent.

AnikMankar,

I thought that even on bikes that did not have the EVAP canister, the vent tube still runs down the right side of the bike, across the front, and then into the tube stay on the left side of the bike. I have never been able to confirm this, but pictures such as the one you are showing above certainly make me see it that way. Does anyone know for sure?

I dont have EVAP so the tubes goes all the way thru as per the image

Anik

Ahh, after manipulating my head better to get a better look, it is the positive battery cable to the stared. [image: emoji16.png] probably can't see t in the pic it's not leaking at the moment and is drying up, I can see that the leak is coming from higher up and leaks only when the engine is running. I believe I have an injector leaking. Mother Trucker!![image: post-26694-1410877438855.jpg]

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Well I found the source of the leak. Hard to see in a pic. The reflection is fuel puddling on the intake valves.

This means the injector is bleeding down correct?[image: post-26694-14109208594432.jpg]

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You may have to pull throttle body out to verify that.

Yep looks like it.

David,

My life sucks. So, should I...

A. Send it back to the guy who serviced it?

B. Try to fix it myself?

C. Run it like it is and see if fixes itself?

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Does anyone know how the coolant hoses are SUPPOSED to connect to the wax unit? (2000 model)

JeffInFranklinTN

David,

My life sucks. So, should I...

A. Send it back to the guy who serviced it?

B. Try to fix it myself?

C. Run it like it is and see if fixes itself?

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Yes, it is running fine other than the wax unit.

I'm new with fuel injectors. I'm assuming they can easily be disassembled?

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you can replace the seals/cushions thats about it. You really don't disassemble them. You replace them or have them professionally cleaned. Thats it. They are pretty easy to remove. Don't live with dripping fuel, could lead to other conditions that cause you more problems.

So, fuel from leaky injector that's deposited on the intake valves is finding its way to the outside of the bike to manifest as a fuel leak? How is that happening?

Well that's the thing, they just got back from a cleaning. Fixing one problem has created two more. It's disappointing.

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did you replace all seals AND the cushions? typically the cleaning places don't give you every seal you need, just 2 of them i believe.........if you pull the injectors on an older bike you should replace the seals and cushions imho

if memory serves me right, you are not the first with this issue. Search up something along the lines of injectors leaking after cleaning.

I believe Kaldek had this issue. I think he sent his injectors in for cleaning, and when they came back they were worse off! I think if you search his posts up you will find it, and I think he even mentions it in one of his youtube videos. He gives an explanation for what was going on there. I think in the end he had to replace them, and you could have a similar issue.

The seals and seats including the "filters" inside them.were replaced. The cushions were not. I checked all the injectors for external leaks...no sighns of anything externally.

Here you go:

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/59801-testing-for-leaking-fuel-injectors/

Also Kaldek has at least 5 videos that have to do with VFR injectors here:

https://www.youtube.com/user/KaldekBoch/videos

I will find Kaldek's post. Thank you.

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Thank you very much. The guy who cleaned them wants me to call him. He guarantees his work and it sounds like he wants to help me with this. I will watch those videos for sure.

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Jeff that's the best way .

Switchblade

Jeff that's the best way .

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if your injectors are hosed after cleaning, its not necessarily the injector guys fault. I think Kaldek explains things well in his video and posts.

Used injectors are pretty cheap, but I would definitely have any used injectors re-cleaned and new seals for sure.

I was hunting down fuel system issues and I must have replaced every damn thing I could think of:

cleaned injectors, new seals and cushions

new FPR

new fuel rail seals (hell once your taking off the FPR etc may as well replace these)

new fuel filter

I am even going to remove my EVAP can, cap off the TB ports and re-route my vent hose.

I really hope you get this fixed, no doubt its driving you crazy

JeffInFranklinTN

Switchblade

Jeff that's the best way .

Send them back?

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Yeah Jeff I would you can not ride like that, all of that raw gas drains down to the oil.

You are correct David and I have checked the oil level.

Another late night so I can get them in the mail in the morning.

Someday you and I will meet.

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For sure .

Here's a valuable tip idiots like me....when installing your fuel injectors put them in the fuel rails first. I damaged two o-rings when I assembled it. I'm still sending them back to Jim because of the one injector that leaked down. Although that may be of my stupidity also. I will call him and offer to pay for new seals and o-rings. He did intact replace the cushions.

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Make sure you apply some engine oil before if fitting

I did that but....dumb....dumb...me.[image: emoji107.png]

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Question for the gurus...

Since a previous owner has "adjusted" the wax unit how would you go about setting it up like they did at the factory during assembly?

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I can't help with any specific settings for the wax unit, but I can perhaps help you understand how it functions, as I would assume it is automating the function of the fast idle lever which my 99 model has.

The idle speed of the VFR is controlled by the starter valves. These bypass the main butterflies, which are closed at idle, and allow a controlled amount of air to reach the cylinders. To make the idle speed higher, the starter valves open more. The starter valves also have a synchronisation function whereby three of the valves can be independently adjusted in reference to the fixed fourth one, to even out the airflow between the cylinders.

The starter valves are opened as a bank by the starter valve lever. The idle adjustment screw sets the resting point of the starter valve lever.

For a cold start, the lever is opened in my case by the fast idle cable, in your case by the wax unit. When operating temperature is reached the starter valve plate should be returned to its resting point set by the idle screw, in my case by releasing tension on the cable and in your case by the wax unit.

I would approach this by getting the bike and wax unit good and hot (so normal operating temp of around 80C/176F) and set the idle with the idle adjuster, and then make sure the wax unit is not applying any force to the starter valve lever (equivalent to some slack in the fast idle cable), so that the starter valve lever position is only due to the idle adjuster screw. But you would not want the wax unit to be sitting too far away from applying force to the lever, otherwise when it is cold it might not open as far as you need to get a stable idle. To me, that should be the only adjustment that you'll need or want.

Take a heat gun to it and see if it's still applying pressure to starter valve's.

No!!!

The wax unit should be applying pressure to the starter valve lever plate when cold. When hot it should apply no pressure so only the idle screw holds the starter valves open.

Sorry Switchblade, maybe I'm misreading your post and that's what you meant.

Switchblade

Take a heat gun to it and see if it's still applying pressure to starter valve's.

Terry

No!!!

The wax unit should be applying pressure to the starter valve lever plate when cold. When hot it should apply no pressure so only the idle screw holds the starter valves open.

Sorry Switchblade, maybe I'm misreading your post and that's what you meant.

Or-r-r-r-r ... you're both correct.

As in, check out the wax unit and it's operation while it's cold ... and then use a heat gun *CAREFULLY* to see if you can get the fast idle to change right away?

(just thinking out loud ....)

I did try a heat gun on it...it moves very slowly. Like Signal had stated it could have an air bubble in it. I have a rebuild kit for it. I'm going to try to bleed the air out of it by pulling off one of the hoses right after I start it. I need to know which hose is the outlet side. Anyone know?

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How about changing it out to a '98-'99 fast idle lever and doing away with that wax thing.

Terry

No!!!

The wax unit should be applying pressure to the starter valve lever plate when cold. When hot it should apply no pressure so only the idle screw holds the starter valves open.

Sorry Switchblade, maybe I'm misreading your post and that's what you meant.

Should have a been a little more clearer.

I thought the wax unit was "relaxed" when cold and applies pressure as it gets hotter to close the starter valves?

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No I think you have this backwards, sorry. As I said I don't have a wax unit but I did look at Kaldek's 6th gen wax unit video. That showed the wax unit shaft extending out (so lengthening) as the unit heated up, which allows the starter valves to close. The starter valve plate should be sitting on the end of the idle screw when hot, or being pulled open by the wax unit when cold. I would expect there is a nut on the end of the wax unit shaft where it pulls on the starter valve plate. When the bike is hot there should be a little freeplay between the nut and the plate so that the plate position is only governed by the idle screw, not the wax unit.

I think the wax unit consists of a plug of wax that expands and contracts in response to temperature. This pulls the shaft inwards when cold, and pushes it out when hot.

Terry

No I think you have this backwards, sorry. As I said I don't have a wax unit but I did look at Kaldek's 6th gen wax unit video. That showed the wax unit shaft extending out (so lengthening) as the unit heated up, which allows the starter valves to close. The starter valve plate should be sitting on the end of the idle screw when hot, or being pulled open by the wax unit when cold. I would expect there is a nut on the end of the wax unit shaft where it pulls on the starter valve plate. When the bike is hot there should be a little freeplay between the nut and the plate so that the plate position is only governed by the idle screw, not the wax unit.

I think the wax unit consists of a plug of wax that expands and contracts in response to temperature. This pulls the shaft inwards when cold, and pushes it out when hot.

The wax unit closes when its cold. It "pulls" on the plate, which moves the starter valves. On the opposite side of the plate is the idle screw which "pushes" the plate.

Got the injectors back from Jim again and they all check out fine. This past Thursday night I got back together and running again.(no fuel leaks now) As for the wax unit...I tried another suggestion about bleeding the air out of it. With the two coolant hoses disconnected from the wax unit, I filled coolant system until there was coolant coming out of both hoses. Slipped one hose on the wax unit so that it would push the air out of the wax unit and then slipped the other hose on. Well apparently just removing the throttle body made the wax unit fail. How the hell is that possible? It worked great before removing the throttle body. Friday night I pulled the tank and air box...again, removed the wax unit and got it apart only to find out that the new kit I had has vanished. Looks like I'll be ordering another wax element again. I did ride it over the weekend and she runs great other than at idle because the starter valves are out of synch and can't synch them until I get the wax unit working again. What a run of bad luck and expense this has been.

Jeff

Better days a head Jeff ..

New wax element ordered today. Hopefully I'll have it by Thursday because this Friday is the Level 1 Total Control Advanced Riding Clinic that I would absolutely hate my life if I missed it.

curious as to how you "calibrate" the new wax unit. If it were simple enough you think they would mention how to do it in the service manual. I always wondered about how I would do it if I ever replaced the wax unit.

Well my approach will be to set the fast idle speed with the wax unit first engine running. Then after the engine is warm synch the starter valves. The # 1 starter valve is not adjustable(factory pre-set and y'all know that I'm sure) so setting those up should not be an issue.

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Success!! No fuel leaks. Starter valves synched. New wax element installed and is working although it is sluggish to close the valves but seems to be getting better. I was able to make it to David's class this past Friday!! Learned many things I need to work on. Maybe next spring I can take level II

THANKS FOR ALL YOUR SUGGESTIONS INVOLVING THIS THREAD.

Jeffrey

I believe I speak for all of us in saying: [image: banana.gif]

Cheers! E-Ticket

:cheerleader: :cheerleader: :cheerleader:

Thank you thank you thank you

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Jeff, thank you for sharing your journey. I have just scratched replacing the injectors off my list :biggrin:

LOL Well the problems I had reinstalling were my fault. A very good learning experience. Next time it should be a walk in the park.

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Knock on wood. [image: emoji16.png]

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JeffInFranklinTN

LOL Well the problems I had reinstalling were my fault. A very good learning experience. Next time it should be a walk in the park.

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Knock on wood. [image: emoji16.png]

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Are you volunteering to help others ?

:goofy:

Do you think they'll sign a waiver? [image: emoji16.png]

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I may ask for your help if that's the case. I have a '99 so I don't have a wax unit although I feel that replacing or cleaning the injectors is a good idea as part of my overhaul. Does anyone have any suggestions? Bike is running and the injectors seem to be OK, only 10000km on this V. BTW when I say running ..I have only had it running on the center stand in neutral :unsure:

i will sign a waiver..lmao

If it has not run in a while I would consider a cleaning. I can send you info to the guy I used. He is in New York State. Great guy to communicate with.

Yes I'll help you if I can.

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Great! Thanks Jeff. I'm not there yet but when I am I may reach out to you. Cheers

Okie dokie

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ideally adding injector cleaners from STP into the tank should do the trick. When I got down to clean the throttle body - i did take it all apart, replaced all tubes (local), oiled all the moving parts.

Update:

No fuel leaks. Bike does run well except for some surging under 3000 rpm's.

Either the synchronizer gauge I have is inaccurate or I have done it wrong.

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