Hydrolocked By Left Rear Cylinder

The GDC 6G that we built last year has been plagued by an engine that will not start after a rain. We initially thought it electrical but found some water in the oil. We wondered about head gaskets as the engine has over 65k miles on it now. They are also good.

We have been getting heavy rain this year in the south. We have tried to find an area where water/rain could get into the engien and hydro-lock it unsuccessfully. This past week we confirmed that the only cylinder that is getting filled with water is the left rear.

We have fabbed up various brackets and gaskets to seal the COP's to the 5G heads and do not think that rain is getting in past the COP's.

We have had the airbox off more than 2 dozen times to search for issues and have had the throttle bodies off half a dozen times to look for loose hoses.

We placed the bike on a rear stand for the latest round of thunder storms to eliminate the thinking that leaning on the sidestand was somehow contributing to this.

We have found no loose hoses or vacuum lines that could funnel rain into the cylinder. After a heavy rain the engine will either not move at all when the start button is pushed or (if the left rear cylinder is close to the bottom of the bore) the engine will turn for less than a quarter revolution and then lock. That is not enough rotation to pull liquid in through a vacuum line or loose hose even if submerged in a container of water.

Any ideas or recommendations?

Our next step if we cannot solve this issue is to put the 4G back on the road for commuting and remove the engine from the frame to start over.

TIA

Now that's an odd one! Injector seals okay?

I just looked at an extra set of throttlebodies in the garage and the injector seal seems a little too small to let as much water in as we're finding. But i haven't actually inspected the throttlebodies that are on the bike so i'll check that out when i get a chance just to be sure.

It would seem that you have covered virtually all possibilities of where this water/ liquid is coming from.

If I were in your shoes, I would siphon some of the liquid out of the cylinder and inspect it. The questions I would need to answer:

1) is the liquid only water? Are you running water in your cooling system or a coolant/ water 50/50 mix? If the drained liquid is (essentially) the same as the coolant, then you know you have a head gasket/ cracked block/ cracked head. Have you completed a pressure test of the cooling system? Have you had to add coolant/ water to that system? You have indicated that this only happens when it rains; does this mean that if it is parked inside, the problem doesn't exist? I would think this would be relatively easy to reproduce with an average garden hose.

2) Is the liquid a mix of oil & water, or only rainwater? Is it possible that water has gotten into the crankcase and then somehow (bad rings, etc) gotten into the cylinder? There is a dye that can be added to oil that shows under a black light. It is used to spot oil leaks in engines (mostly in automobiles I think) but could also have an application here.

3) Have you done a compression test on all 4 cylinders? How did the results compare with specs and each other? Also, when running, I would spray carb cleaner (or something similar) near that area and see if you could spot some time of external leak by vacuum detection.

4) Lastly, how does the bike run when you are not dealing with this issue? is it running on all 4 or does it miss fire at all? Does it idle different when the carb spray is introduced?

CC - I have read numerous posts from you and know without a doubt that you know what you are doing.... I am hoping that my line of questioning points you to the resolution... please keep us informed of what the solution.

-TC

Potential points of water entry are the breather system, PAIR system, Evap system or a cracked Vacuum Chamber. Probably could pull the coils and seal the plug opening before it rains to rule this point of entry out if all else fails.

KEB

Very strange... I can't imagine how any liquid could get past a spark plug (or COP) and into the cylinder. (Provided the plug isn't defective.)

No water missing from the radiator ? I have heard of crack cylinder walls sealing up when heated and opening up when cool. Working the notion you did find some water in the oil.

Roll On ..

Yes; that's what I would like to know. How does the engine oil look?

Stop spining it. Water does NOT compress.

No further updates?

I was going to suggest the starter motor.

To try and answer some of the suggestions thus far:

It does only occur when it rains and we have not been entirely successful in replicating it with a garden hose but now that the heat of summer is upon we may be more diligent in our attempt at this.

The liquid is only water, no gas, no coolant and no oil come spitting out when we remove the coil and plug and push the starter button to remove the liquid. We have captured it many times on various clean rags and paper towels.

It runs really well when it starts.

It does not happen when the bike is parked inside even for a long period of time or when my son takes the cover for the bike to work and covers it there before the rain.

We don't think the rain is getting past the spark plug but perhaps filling the plug cavity and getting through some internal passageway in the cam cover but that seems more unlikely as well. Getting past the 6G COP's inserted into the 5G cam covers is more easily accomplished.

At this point we are going back to the pair block off plates and will order some new plates and reinstall them with the original pair covers this time.

The PAIR plate sounds like a very good place to go looking for the leak; I re-used the original rubber seal when I installed blanking plates. If there's a leak that lets water in, I would think you would also hear an exhaust leak. When I installed mine, I left the PAIR reed valves in place but on one the retaining screw fouled the blanking cap and that cap would not seal, and it was very obvious when started the bike. I removed the reed valves and just left the rubber seal in place, and have had no leaks in 20,000km or riding.

Unless your gas cap overflow is unhooked, I don't see how that much water gets past the tank and onto the top of the engine much less into the engine. Tell Mini to stop riding on rain days. Problem solved. You can buy me a beer later.

Not riding on rainy days, it's parking...

Had a big thunder storm blow through this afternoon so I put a handful of tools in the truck with the dog and rode over the Best Buy when Mini was scheduled to be leaving...he walks out and asks "Should we try it?"

I shake my head no and hand him the tools. Within 3 minutes he has the tank propped up and the COP and plug removed from the left rear cylinder. "Crank it over." I suggest. He does and we get about 3 ounces of rainwater from the cylinder as the bike roars to life...running on 3 and pumping air where the plug should be.

I wish I had recorded it.

Pop the plug back in and COP on, reconnect the tank and he almost beat me home.

Some how in your build you have created this channel for water to dump right on top of that plug. You know the 6th gen does have a rubber cover over the rear cylinder banks, you mite steal one off the other bikes your not riding and place it over the problem bike and see if it helps.

Roll On ..

This is just an idea - I don't recall anyone mentioning placing some small bits of absorbent material such as Kleenex in suspected locations to see what gets wet and what stays dry. I have used that method to find small coolant leaks by twisting a Kleenex to a sharp point and probing around hoses, weep holes, etc. Any liquid is immediately apparent.

Carvers - Plug your exhaust before it rains and see if that helps... it might be coming in through your exhaust valve or your rear cylinder bank PAIR valve. Engines tend to stop in one or two positions when they are shut off, kind of a balancing the pressures. My track bike 5th gen engine is stopped with #3 intake and exhaust in overlap so I have a passage straight through the throttlebody and out the exhaust. Your engine may stop with your #1 in the same config just finishing the exhaust stroke and when you crank it goes down pulling in water then trying to compress it and stopping... it's a thought.

A couple of butt plugs may solve your problem! :goofy:

If you redo your PAIR block off plates I believe the correct procedure is to remove the reed valves and screw... I thought I saw someone mention leaving them in.

3 ounces up the tail pipe . :goofy:

Roll On ..

CornerCarver

I shake my head no and hand him the tools. Within 3 minutes he has the tank propped up and the COP and plug removed from the left rear cylinder. "Crank it over." I suggest. He does and we get about 3 ounces of rainwater from the cylinder as the bike roars to life...running on 3 and pumping air where the plug should be.

I'm struggling with how the water is getting in the cylinder past the spark plug seal and threads. I guess over a long period of time it would weep past threads, but I would think it would be days for enough to get in there to hydro an engine.

Is there a rubber flapper over that stuff when stock? I know there is one back there somewhere. I think it hooks to the tank hinge bolt. Maybe that is to help divert water away from the spark plug area?

Gremlin?

[image: 519KceSuB8L._SY355_.jpg]

Diabetic mouse in the airbox?

wera803

I'm struggling with how the water is getting in the cylinder past the spark plug seal and threads. I guess over a long period of time it would weep past threads, but I would think it would be days for enough to get in there to hydro an engine.

Me too. If that much water easily leaks past a spark plug that normally seals the chamber when running at a pressure of 11.8:1, you would have blown the plug out clean out of the head by now.

Switchblade

Some how in your build you have created this channel for water to dump right on top of that plug. You know the 6th gen does have a rubber cover over the rear cylinder banks, you mite steal one off the other bikes your not riding and place it over the problem bike and see if it helps.

Roll On ..

The rubber flaps are all installed just as any factory 6G bike.

Cogswell

This is just an idea - I don't recall anyone mentioning placing some small bits of absorbent material such as Kleenex in suspected locations to see what gets wet and what stays dry. I have used that method to find small coolant leaks by twisting a Kleenex to a sharp point and probing around hoses, weep holes, etc. Any liquid is immediately apparent.

Have thought about placing a "tattletale" material but as the water is ingressing the combustion chamber I have not thought of a material that would not be either ignited or exhausted at those temps and pressures...any ideas?

Rush2112

Carvers - Plug your exhaust before it rains and see if that helps... it make be coming in through your exhaust valve or your rear cylinder bank PAIR valve. Engines tend to stop in one or two positions when they are shut off, kind of a balancing the pressures. My track bike 5th gen engine is stopped with #3 intake and exhaust in overlap so I have a passage straight through the throttlebody and out the exhaust. Your engine may stop with your #1 in the same config just finishing the exhaust stroke and when you crank it goes down pulling in water then trying to compress it and stopping... it's a thought.

A couple of butt plugs may solve your problem! :goofy:

If you redo your PAIR block off plates I believe the correct procedure is to remove the reed valves and screw... I thought I saw someone mention leaving them in.

Not coming in the exhaust via the tailpipe (Staintune 6G exhaust on a catless 5G header) and the engine rotation is never more than 1/16th revolution at most...often you only get an audible *click* from the starter solenoid and ZERO rotation.

wera803

CornerCarver

I shake my head no and hand him the tools. Within 3 minutes he has the tank propped up and the COP and plug removed from the left rear cylinder. "Crank it over." I suggest. He does and we get about 3 ounces of rainwater from the cylinder as the bike roars to life...running on 3 and pumping air where the plug should be.

Did you look down in the spark plug cavity before removing the plug? Just curious if the water was in the cavity and when you removed the plug, the water got into the cylinder.

I'm struggling with how the water is getting in the cylinder past the spark plug seal and threads. I guess over a long period of time it would weep past threads, but I would think it would be days for enough to get in there to hydro an engine.

Is there a rubber flapper over that stuff when stock? I know there is one back there somewhere. I think it hooks to the tank hinge bolt. Maybe that is to help divert water away from the spark plug area?

The water is not getting around or through the spark plug threads and into the engine.

No water in the plug/COP cavity prior to removal, in fact this time, the COP was dry as it was removed from the cavity.

Rubber flaps on the tank mount ass'y (both) are installed and flapping over the factory areas.

tbzep

wera803

I'm struggling with how the water is getting in the cylinder past the spark plug seal and threads. I guess over a long period of time it would weep past threads, but I would think it would be days for enough to get in there to hydro an engine.

Me too. If that much water easily leaks past a spark plug that normally seals the chamber when running at a pressure of 11.8:1, you would have blown the plug out clean out of the head by now.

Yes. As mentioned in TImmy's post water doesn't compress. :happy: But perhaps I under-estimated the sneakiness of the water.

It is very, very sneaky sir.

CornerCarver

The water is not getting around or through the spark plug threads and into the engine.

No water in the plug/COP cavity prior to removal, in fact this time, the COP was dry as it was removed from the cavity.

Thanks for the clarification. It seemed like several were speculating water was passing the spark plug threads.

I know you probably know the details of these bikes better than anyone else I know, but personally I thought looking at a picture would help me.

[image: bce199ea1de0c753a555aeb4d3192139.jpg]

So fresh air comes in the top of the air box (white arrows). Looks like the PAIR could let water in on the exhaust valve.

Blow-by gas comes thru the breather and into the air box as well. It shows the fresh air going through the air funnels and the blow-by gas going through some small passage along side the air funnel. Not sure why they show it like that though.

If water was getting in the breather system anywhere outside the airbox, it would end up in the oil, not in the piston. So it seems airbox or PAIR cover would be the logical spots.

Maybe you could stuff a wash cloth in the intake track, put it together, then use a hose to soak it down. Pull it apart and see if the washcloth is wet and if water is still in the cylinder?

Ken thanks for adding the diagram to the discussion! It really helps everyone visualize the possibilities.

We initially thought it was coming in through the airbox as I have been running a open lid airbox on my 5G for years and Mini copied this when he put his Frankenviffer on the dyno to program the PC to provide proper fueling for a 5G engine running a VTec ECU.

We now have one of the tightest airboxes I have ever seen on a motorcycle and no water is getting anywhere inside that.

I will circle back to Cogswell and your idea of a tattletale and place something in the intake tract as well as surrounding the plug and re-install the COP then soak sufficiently with a garden hose to see if we can recreate the issue.

For now Mini has ordered another set of Pair block off plates and we are waiting for them to arrive but this test would certainly give us more confidence in that as the solution.

CornerCarver

We now have one of the tightest airboxes I have ever seen...

No need to brag!

KevCarver

CornerCarver

We now have one of the tightest airboxes I have ever seen...

No need to brag!

The reason most people toot their own horn is because no one else knows the tune...

yet another reason to leave the pair alone.

Tight airbox and a good PAIR. What else could a guy ask for!

Haha, quality thread!

Never seen a problem like this before, but logically, it could only be coming in via the inlet or valves... Unless it is coming from inside the engine itself.

Hope you solve it, curious to see what it is!

You can visual inspect for a leaking head gasket by pulling the spark
plug and peering down suspect hole... if the top of the piston is black
then no leak that cylinder... if the top of the piston is a bright
shiny aluminum then leak detected... because a leaky head gasket
allows coolant in and that produces steam under the heat of
combustion... the net effect is a super clean piston dome instead of nasty
black...

wera803 [image: bce199ea1de0c753a555aeb4d3192139.jpg]

BusyLittleShop

You can visual inspect for a leaking head gasket by pulling the spark

plug and peering down suspect hole... if the top of the piston is black

then no leak that cylinder... if the top of the piston is a bright

shiny aluminum then leak detected... because a leaky head gasket

allows coolant in and that produces steam under the heat of

combustion... the net effect is a super clean piston dome instead of nasty

black...

Pretty sure the problem only occurs when the bike sits in the rain. PAIR system looks like the most likely culprit though looking at the posted diagram the blow-by gas path indicated is another prime suspect.

Also looking at the vacuum hose diagram in the shop manual the way the 5-way tee is configured if water were to get into the tee the majority of it would drain into Cylinder 1. That is based on the diagram and I don't have a VFR anymore to check it out. Be a great test to pull the number 1 hose and extend it with a fitting to a long section of tubing and then spray the bike down. Could also put some soft paper under the PAIR plate and do the same test to see if that is the point of entry.

It's supposed to rain here all day tomorrow. Ride the bike to Knoxville and we shall test it proper. Got plenty of VFR braintrust members that live within a few miles of each other up here, maybe a fresh set of eyes will help.

KEB

Water may be collecting in one location, then getting sucked in on first crank. Check after rain but before cranking.

CornerCarver

The GDC 6G that we built last year has been plagued by an engine that will not start after a rain. We initially thought it electrical but found some water in the oil. We wondered about head gaskets as the engine has over 65k miles on it now. They are also good.

We have been getting heavy rain this year in the south. We have tried to find an area where water/rain could get into the engien and hydro-lock it unsuccessfully. This past week we confirmed that the only cylinder that is getting filled with water is the left rear.

We have fabbed up various brackets and gaskets to seal the COP's to the 5G heads and do not think that rain is getting in past the COP's.

We have had the airbox off more than 2 dozen times to search for issues and have had the throttle bodies off half a dozen times to look for loose hoses.

We placed the bike on a rear stand for the latest round of thunder storms to eliminate the thinking that leaning on the sidestand was somehow contributing to this.

We have found no loose hoses or vacuum lines that could funnel rain into the cylinder. After a heavy rain the engine will either not move at all when the start button is pushed or (if the left rear cylinder is close to the bottom of the bore) the engine will turn for less than a quarter revolution and then lock. That is not enough rotation to pull liquid in through a vacuum line or loose hose even if submerged in a container of water.

Any ideas or recommendations?

Our next step if we cannot solve this issue is to put the 4G back on the road for commuting and remove the engine from the frame to start over.

TIA

Not coming in via a vacuum hose....no where near enough revolution to generate any vacuum. Actually usually no rotation at all.

If the PAIR system is letting water in, then it will also let blow by vapors out... any grimy areas near the system parts that would indicate a leak?

I am completely baffled by this.

Hope you figure this out Carvers.

Not sure if you've doneit already, but pur some water on the bike and see where it goes...

PAIR block off plate is VERY unlikely, unless you have an upturned funnel screwed into it.

Spark plug is also a no go, since there is a drain channel (presumably not blocked).

Vacuum is also not a problem since there is none while parked.

Air box? No way in hell.

Injector not sealed properly and letting water stream into the cylinder? Big Maybe.

Baffled, as I said.

Just for my satisfaction I would put that cylinder on TDC and pull the plug and insert a adapter and pressurize the cylinder. Then listen for escaping air. Don't know if it will enlighten the problem or not BUT we are fast approaching a brick wall .

Roll On ..

Allyance

Water may be collecting in one location, then getting sucked in on first crank. Check after rain but before cranking.

In Soviet Russia, crank sucks you.

kebrider

Pretty sure the problem only occurs when the bike sits in the rain. PAIR system looks like the most likely culprit though looking at the posted diagram the blow-by gas path indicated is another prime suspect.

KEB

At this point you want to eliminate every possibility...

Pair is the exhaust side... any water that collects there will be blown out... check the intake side... like the screw below the intake boot that seals off the throttle synch port...

BusyLittleShop

kebrider

Pretty sure the problem only occurs when the bike sits in the rain. PAIR system looks like the most likely culprit though looking at the posted diagram the blow-by gas path indicated is another prime suspect.

KEB

At this point you want to eliminate every possibility...

Pair is the exhaust side... any water that collects there will be blown out... check the intake side... like the screw below the intake boot that seals off the throttle synch port...

RC Forty-What? No, RC46.

PAIR has two tubes per bank that lead directly onto the inside exhaust valves of each cylinder. It is possible that the valve on cyl 1 is slightly blocked and not sealing. That would allow water direct access from the pair to the cylinder.

Same with intake ports. Even if there was a leak, the valve would have to be blocked from completely sealing. On either side, it would have to be an incredible coincidence that every time he parked it and it rained, that valve was sitting open.

Oh by the way, the spark plug tubes have drains just above the spark plug threads that drain directly out and under the exhaust ports.

Anything else looks like it would just allow water into the valve train area. That would only drain into the bottom of the crankcase. Even if it somehow filled up the valve spring seat, it would have to drain down past the valve guide seal. That would present burning oil in the exhaust far sooner than filling up a cylinder.

I've got a completely disassembled RC 46 engine in my garage, and there just aren't any more paths into the cylinder other than through the valves via intake boot leak, PAIR leak, valve guide seal leak, or head gasket leak (which would present other, bigger issues). Same with spark plug leaking. #1 there's a drain, #2 combustion would have done far worse coming out.

The exhaust ports are angled down, and have a lip over them. No way for rain water to counteract gravity.

May want to do a valve clearance check to see if one is way out of line. My vote is the inside exhaust valve on #1 cylinder.

Is there a chance you have a crack in valley in between the two air intake ports at the top part of the airbox ?

Roll On ..

Rained pretty hard here today (again - sorry California) so on my way to remove a spark plug and take some video so Mini can get home from work...BRB.

Can't wait .

Roll On ..

Long video ?

Roll On ...

Switchblade

Long video ?

Roll On ...

I'm dieing to know what is causing this... I logged on last night to see the video...

:lurk:

Maybe we'll get video of the house remodeling instead... :unsure:

:goofy:

That would be fun too. Is it also hydro locked?? ............ :ph34r:

I, too, keep checking back to see the progress.

C

KevCarver

Maybe we'll get video of the house remodeling instead... :unsure:

:goofy:

Hot dam that's funny ......

[image: 8101875c8ef85e62bc3ee42ff57812a4.jpg]

Your suppose to remove the motorcycle BEFORE entering the water ...

Roll On ..

Must be still raining!

That's funny ^^ it raining right now for sure .

Roll On ...

maybe a starter valve hose?

I say the god Neptune has decided to punish him for 30 years of bad jokes.

timmythecop

I say the god Neptune has decided to punish him for 30 years of bad jokes.

[image: 200w_d.gif]

timmythecop

I say the god Neptune has decided to punish him for 30 years of bad jokes.

So you're giving him credit for 20-something years of good ones?

Do the 6th Gen have intake runner boots? Injector seals as suggested before. You could always try the Lucas trick, add smoke then used compressed air to force it out and see where it escapes.

Pair valve plates...95% sure now.

The last time we pulled the left rear plug to start it turned about a 1/4 turn and stopped. Pulled the other rear plug and they both exhausted a good 2 ozs of water...I was in charge of the camera phone (Mini's phone so he needs to edit the video) and only caught the last of the water as it dripped from the underside of the tank.

We have ordered a set of pair valve plates from a member and will keep you posted on their efficacy at remediating this issue once installed.

For those of you in Rio Linda that means that we will let you know if it fixes the problem :wink:

CornerCarver

For those of you in Rio Linda that means that we will let you know if it fixes the problem :wink:

Pretty cold man. Funny as sh!t, but cold.

Remember to notify CNN and Fox the microsecond you have the results. Not exactly sure where the Vegas line is but I will look into it and post later today. It's gettin out of control CC. Hope you have time to make the Talk Show circuit when it's finally over.

Wait, what is the problem again, A PAIR of leaky spark plugs or something?

KEB

CornerCarver

For those of you in Rio Linda that means that we will let you know if it fixes the problem :wink:

Don't get the ref, but I'm not stoned on Oxy's... :wacko:

Switchblade

Just for my satisfaction I would put that cylinder on TDC and pull the plug and insert a adapter and pressurize the cylinder. Then listen for escaping air. Don't know if it will enlighten the problem or not BUT we are fast approaching a brick wall .

Roll On ..

Figured that was it .

KevCarver

CornerCarver

For those of you in Rio Linda that means that we will let you know if it fixes the problem :wink:

Don't get the ref, but I'm not stoned on Oxy's... :wacko:

We installed (the royal we) new pair valves sourced from a member here (Mello Dude) and they appear to be better made than the cheaper ones we had previously purchased on fleaBay.... Mello Dude gets $29.95 a pair for them plus shipping.

We are now 4 days without rain since the installation of the new pair valves so we don't know anything yet but I have a suspicion that we (again, the royal we but this time instead of meaning "MiniCarver" it means the collective of this amazing forum) have solved the problem.

Stuck a water hose on full throttle under the seat area and parked it on the kick stand for a couple of hours but that doesn't mean anything yet. Next chance of rain here is Wednesday.

Fingers crossed .

It's storming like we Royally (the royal we) pissed Zeus off and he's trying to bring our house down so i'll definitely know tomorrow if the new plates fixed the problem. Thanks again MelloDude.

MiniCarver

It's storming like we Royally (the royal we) pissed Zeus off and he's trying to bring our house down so i'll definitely know tomorrow if the new plates fixed the problem. Thanks again MelloDude.

This is all so scientific.

timmythecop

This is all so scientific.

Well it would be if there was beer.

Rain tonight me think !

MiniCarver

It's storming like we Royally (the royal we) pissed Zeus off and he's trying to bring our house down so i'll definitely know tomorrow if the new plates fixed the problem. Thanks again MelloDude.

You make it to work today?

KevCarver

MiniCarver

It's storming like we Royally (the royal we) pissed Zeus off and he's trying to bring our house down so i'll definitely know tomorrow if the new plates fixed the problem. Thanks again MelloDude.

You make it to work today?

:lurk:

Still raining ?

KevCarver

MiniCarver

It's storming like we Royally (the royal we) pissed Zeus off and he's trying to bring our house down so i'll definitely know tomorrow if the new plates fixed the problem. Thanks again MelloDude.

You make it to work today?

He did...after pulling the left rear plug and pumping about two ounces of rainwater out...

:sad:

Still diagnosing...may even resort to fabricating a dome cover for the rear head....not sure what to do next or where to look.

I think he is going to put some tires on his 4th Gen and commute on it while he takes the 5th gen engine back out of the 6G frame...

it realistically can only be 4 things:

pair

spark plug threads

intake

exhaust

one would think the exhaust could be eliminated, because water will not defy gravity. Then you go to what was modified...aha. Deduction has shown it to be the pair system.

BTW, you should really fill that jug with oil while you figure it out. That much water on top of the piston is scary.

The suspense is KILLING me...

I know this is going to sound stupid but why would you leave this bike out in the torrential rain. You could maybe put a cover over it or pull it into a garage. I mean c'mon.

One thing to think about is a good valve seal should keep out most water out of the combustion chamber, so I find it a little odd that i keeps filling up the chamber if it is coming through the intake or exhaust, what are the odds that the engine stops every time with same valve open. If you are trying to start it before checking, then it would have to be on the intake side since it would suck that side in and a blow the exhaust side out. Can you use some powder to check the flow of rain over the airbox and intake? That much water almost has to flow into on open hole or puddle up on a smaller leak.

Depends on how much water and gravity can be defeated .

I'll admit that I didn't read all 8 pages of this thread this morning, but has the cooling system been pressurized while the engine is cold, and while the engine is hot?

paulmeisterpk

I'll admit that I didn't read all 8 pages of this thread this morning, but has the cooling system been pressurized while the engine is cold, and while the engine is hot?

Only when outside and in the rain.

Damn, I had a nice long reply drafted and lost it!

Anyway, Not Spark Plugs. There is a drain to prevent water from building up on the threads. The plug would have to be removed. If the drain were clogged and water did sit there, it's going to be far more damaging for combustion gasses escaping. Plus the plug has been in and out so many times it would have been accidentally properly sealed by now, if it had actually leaked down at some point.

Getting an RTV seal on the PAIR plates is not a difficult task by any means. Even I got it done, and with basic ebay bought plates, not fancy ones. Hopefully you've done that, RTV sealed the block off plates. I've even seen the passage that leads to the exhaust valve blocked with solid metal dowel and/or welded. Could look into that for piece of mind.

Agree with Timmy, no way for water to defy gravity while parked to leak past exhaust header gaskets.

That leaves me agreeing with SamW and intake. But it still would have to be getting past the valves somehow. It's unlikely that it shuts off with the same cylinder intake valves open every time it rains. But it could be leaking past something in the intake tract and making it's way to the intake valves. Maybe one or both of the intake valves doesn't quite seat fully?

Just looked at my throttle body and the intake boot. Looks like an area that could have rain water running over it. Could be poorly seated or a crack in the boot.

I still think (the royal) you should check the valve clearances. I know video games don't play themselves, so it's tough to get the time together to clean out the garage to park inside... :wacko:

OK, so there are ONLY 4 normal ways for anything to get into the cylinder, these are as follows, via;-

1. The Valves

2. The Spark Plug

3. The Piston Rings

4. The Head Gasket

5. Crack in head or cylinder (not normal)

So working in reverse order we can exclude certain items. Head Gasket, would either consume fluid & the caught fluid would be coolant, or it would over pressure the cooling system &/or produce white smoke with the engine running. So not likely. Same for number 5, you would experience other issues probably !

Piston Rings, when on centre stand the oil level is just below the water pump shaft hole, when on side stand even with piston at BDC on #1, the level is NO WHERE near the base of the piston, thus the crankcase would need to fill with water to come up past the rings. So not an option.

The Spark plug, is generally a sealed item once located, so unlikely to be an issue. You would lose spark if the plug itself was leaking & you would experience blowby marks from combustion if it was loose, as well as damp on the plug cap sides & in the plug tunnel.

That leaves the valves, which strangely are where stuff is supposed to enter the cylinder from. As the throttle bodies are under the airbox & that is under the tank, then generally this area is shielded from water. Except for a few areas !

The tank filler has a drain/overflow which is connected to a stub under the tank front right on 5th gens, assume same on 6th & later.

If that stub does NOT have a hose attached &/or if the hose is blocked, then it will leak water onto the top of the airbox, around where the snorkel fits into the airbox.

If you have removed the snorkel & the bike is on the side stand, then this water could track along the inside of the airbox lid, following a gravity path it would meet the cross lid reinforcement & then potentially drip in the rear left area of the airbox. If you have a standard filter this would pass through the filter & may drip directly into the velocity stack for that cylinder ! Which is #1 at rear left !!!!!

The other areas, are drip into inside of airbox then runs across floor of airbox & seeps around outside of velocity stack into the #1 cylinder throttle body & into the cylinder. Alternately, if the airbox is NOT fitted properly, this water could track around outside of airbox following a gravity path to the rubber TB isolators that link TB to head, if the airbox, or the TB clamp is loose, then water could seep into the intake on #1 cylinder.

I'd expect it to be the first of these two as the issue. Can be determined, by lifting tank & opening airbox after a period of rain ! Use a chammy to dry the excess water off the tank before lifting to ensure only rain that has got there before you leaves wet marks.

As far as the PAIR suggestions go as an access point, it does not stack up, this is under the tank, you would detect wet around the PAIR head cover. Assuming PAIR is still enabled/attached. But it is an option for a water access point. You could always go as far as TDC/BDC parking that cylinder so exhaust or inlet only is open or neither & see what happens then. If PAIR exhaust will have water in it, if intake & valve seal is good, then water will appear below butterflies !

Switchblade

Switchblade

Just for my satisfaction I would put that cylinder on TDC and pull the plug and insert a adapter and pressurize the cylinder. Then listen for escaping air. Don't know if it will enlighten the problem or not BUT we are fast approaching a brick wall .

Roll On ..

Figured that was it .

Time to pressurize the cylinder .

Stuff that intake full of paper towel before you leave it in the rain, then (obviously) check it again before you start it up to see if it's wet.

Tamworth

I know this is going to sound stupid but why would you leave this bike out in the torrential rain. You could maybe put a cover over it or pull it into a garage. I mean c'mon.

I am sure when at work at the local Best Buy he should just roll it into the stereo installation bay or better yet right in the front door to the mobile phone department where he works.

Not trying to be a dick regarding your response and realize that most who didn't get involved early are not going to wade through 9 pages of a thread to offer helpful advice. His brother has had his bike backed over 3 TIMES in the parking lot across the street at Starbuck's where he works.

I guess he could purchase some hard bags and always carry a cover but that's not solve a problem that shouldn't be happening.

timmythecop

it realistically can only be 4 things:

pair

spark plug threads

intake

exhaust

one would think the exhaust could be eliminated, because water will not defy gravity. Then you go to what was modified...aha. Deduction has shown it to be the pair system.

BTW, you should really fill that jug with oil while you figure it out. That much water on top of the piston is scary.

We have stopped trying to start it after a rain and now he pulls the rear plugs in about 4 minutes and then cranks it over. He got tired of the $40 oil changes that lasted only a week or two this summer. If you try to start the engine with water on top of the piston SOME water will leak by and make the oil milky.

SamW

One thing to think about is a good valve seal should keep out most water out of the combustion chamber, so I find it a little odd that i keeps filling up the chamber if it is coming through the intake or exhaust, what are the odds that the engine stops every time with same valve open. If you are trying to start it before checking, then it would have to be on the intake side since it would suck that side in and a blow the exhaust side out. Can you use some powder to check the flow of rain over the airbox and intake? That much water almost has to flow into on open hole or puddle up on a smaller leak.

Sam I actually think that an engine with 50,000 miles on it may stop in close to the same or two on most shut downs. When you think about kick starting an old bike (you kids go look it up on the interweb) I seem to recall that many times the piston/valve relationship was very similar. I would have to rotate the crank about half a turn to get on a good compression stroke to start it.

Maybe I am all wrong on that aspect with a modern 4 cylinder engine but i bet it has favorite places to stop as well.

paulmeisterpk

I'll admit that I didn't read all 8 pages of this thread this morning, but has the cooling system been pressurized while the engine is cold, and while the engine is hot?

It has not. There is no coolant missing and the rain water only appears in the two rear cylinders after it rains.

Switchblade

Switchblade

Switchblade

Just for my satisfaction I would put that cylinder on TDC and pull the plug and insert a adapter and pressurize the cylinder. Then listen for escaping air. Don't know if it will enlighten the problem or not BUT we are fast approaching a brick wall .

Roll On ..

Figured that was it .

Time to pressurize the cylinder .

Probably is time to do that David.

BCmcrider

Stuff that intake full of paper towel before you leave it in the rain, then (obviously) check it again before you start it up to see if it's wet.

We can try that but it is a bit of a pain since he commutes on it to go out and remove the airbox to access the intake tract before and after each ride (2-4 times daily depending on lunch schedule and girl friend availability).

CornerCarver

Tamworth

after each ride (2-4 times daily depending on lunch schedule and girl friend availability).

Ahhhh.... to be young and not yet married...................

:goofy:

Time to study the diagram again. The areas I circled in red are possibilities but the purple one is intriguing because all kinds of possibilities with water dripping down into the intake either after pooling at the filter or in the cupped area. The top left red circled area could easily be where it is happening.

[image: post-1814-0-02732500-1437132407.png]

The purple highlights the crankcase breather which could NOT possibly deliver fluid of any kind to the top side of piston #1. For a start the 2D pic does not show you that it is located in the rear right of the airbox just below the split of top/bottom halves, so bike on side stand could NOT flow to that corner, against gravity & even if it was possible the hose leads to a baffle in the cam cover & then into the head, if water got in there the cams would be toast in short order !

I'll stick with my original path, that the tank filler drain/overflow pipe is missing from the stub on the tank under side & leaking rain water into/onto the airbox.

Mohawk

The purple highlights the crankcase breather which could NOT possibly deliver fluid of any kind to the top side of piston #1. For a start the 2D pic does not show you that that is located in the rear right of the airbox just below the split of top/bottom halves, so bike on side stand could NO flow to that corner, against gravity & even if it was possible the hose leads to a baffle in the cam cover & then into the head, if water got in there the cams would be toast in short order !

I'll stick with my original path, that the tank filler drain/overflow pipe is missing from the stub on the tank under side & leaking rain water into/onto the airbox.

Thanks for the clarification Mo. Your thought is close to mine except I originally suspected the tank drain/overflow was mistakenly connected to a vacuum port and they somehow tuned around it.

Time to reverse engineer the problem. Start first with air pressure. Take out the spark plug and inject air through the plug hole, and observe where the air escapes. If just compressed air is inconclusive, try using a smoke machine. If that doesn't pan out, use a liquid test medium.

CornerCarver

BCmcrider

Stuff that intake full of paper towel before you leave it in the rain, then (obviously) check it again before you start it up to see if it's wet.

We can try that but it is a bit of a pain since he commutes on it to go out and remove the airbox to access the intake tract before and after each ride (2-4 times daily depending on lunch schedule and girl friend availability).

What I meant was just take the filter cover and filter out and stuff paper towel into the horn, down to the throttle plate. You should see it get wet if it's coming in that way. Yes it would be a pain but what is the alternative, pull the plug every time? You could just put the tank bolts finger tight and put a bungee cord over the filter cover as a temporary measure.

I was going to say bad seal on fuel tank cap and water making it to throttle bodies vía overflow drain... Somehow, somewhere along that path... Maybe badly seated boot on #1 as well... Get some fluoro tracking powder, like the colorant used in rad coolant to trace leaks and pulverize it over the tank to trace where the water goes.

Enviado desde mi G630-U20 mediante Tapatalk

Things could be weirder.....like how late 90's VW Jetta as ended up with brake fluid in their rear tailight housings.....

True story, ask Some Jetta owners about it. Apparently the brake fluid level sensors in the brake fluid reservoir for the cars was actually siphoning the brake fluid through the wire it was connected to, which then worked it's way through the main wiring harness, then eventually to the tail light housings....

VW even issued a TSB on it and had to replace the related parts for free for the owners.....

This is the strangest thread I've ever followed.

In my mind, it can't be the plug, Pair valve or head/gasket.

It has to be coming through the throttle bodies, or more likely the rubber insulator bands (boots).

It's the only thing that makes sense.

Either way, you are going to have to remove them to find out.

Or just cover the damn bike with plastic when it rains.

VFROZ

This is the strangest thread I've ever followed.

In my mind, it can't be the plug, Pair valve or head/gasket.

It has to be coming through the throttle bodies, or more likely the rubber insulator bands (boots).

It's the only thing that makes sense.

Either way, you are going to have to remove them to find out.

Or just cover the damn bike with plastic when it rains.

Best suggestion yet

If this happened once you'd think it would be covered somehow to to make sure it never happened again. Instead this person leaves it out time after time with the same result every time. How anyone can do that to any bike is beyond me. Cover the damn bike when it looks like rain, doesn't matter where you work or where the bike is parked. This engine has been filled with water so many times it's junk now. Good f..ing grief

Simple way to check my theory, it to place a small cover over just the top of the tank, so that is stops water getting to the filler cap. If bike works after torrential rain then that is the ingress point !

Mohawk

Simple way to check my theory, it to place a small cover over just the top of the tank, so that is stops water getting to the filler cap. If bike works after torrential rain then that is the ingress point !

Tamworth

VFROZ

This is the strangest thread I've ever followed.

In my mind, it can't be the plug, Pair valve or head/gasket.

It has to be coming through the throttle bodies, or more likely the rubber insulator bands (boots).

It's the only thing that makes sense.

Either way, you are going to have to remove them to find out.

Or just cover the damn bike with plastic when it rains.

Best suggestion yet

If this happened once you'd think it would be covered somehow to to make sure it never happened again. Instead this person leaves it out time after time with the same result every time. How anyone can do that to any bike is beyond me. Cover the damn bike when it looks like rain, doesn't matter where you work or where the bike is parked. This engine has been filled with water so many times it's junk now. Good f..ing grief

I''m sure your helpful observations and practical suggestions will be taken under advisement since Keith and the boys seem like the type that would just give up and accept the inevitable. Probably why Keith never has anything interesting or funny to say whenever I see him.

Thanks for the help guys

Tamworth

VFROZ

This is the strangest thread I've ever followed.

In my mind, it can't be the plug, Pair valve or head/gasket.

It has to be coming through the throttle bodies, or more likely the rubber insulator bands (boots).

It's the only thing that makes sense.

Either way, you are going to have to remove them to find out.

Or just cover the damn bike with plastic when it rains.

Best suggestion yet

If this happened once you'd think it would be covered somehow to to make sure it never happened again. Instead this person leaves it out time after time with the same result every time. How anyone can do that to any bike is beyond me. Cover the damn bike when it looks like rain, doesn't matter where you work or where the bike is parked. This engine has been filled with water so many times it's junk now. Good f..ing grief

But that wouldn't fix the problem would it? Out of sight, out of mind, but will still come round to bite him on the backside at some point in the future, probably at the worst possible time. Best to investigate & fix it.

Personally, I really hope we get a resolution, this is one of the strangest things I've heard & would be very disappointed if he just said"oh well, we'll just cover it instead of getting to the bottom of it"

Tamworth

VFROZ

This is the strangest thread I've ever followed.

In my mind, it can't be the plug, Pair valve or head/gasket.

It has to be coming through the throttle bodies, or more likely the rubber insulator bands (boots).

It's the only thing that makes sense.

Either way, you are going to have to remove them to find out.

Or just cover the damn bike with plastic when it rains.

Best suggestion yet

If this happened once you'd think it would be covered somehow to to make sure it never happened again. Instead this person leaves it out time after time with the same result every time. How anyone can do that to any bike is beyond me. Cover the damn bike when it looks like rain, doesn't matter where you work or where the bike is parked. This engine has been filled with water so many times it's junk now. Good f..ing grief

Ahh so you're one of those "let's cover up broken things because they fix themselves" kind of guys aren't you? Like kebrider said, i'll put your suggestions into top advisement, i was gonna put your comment in the spam folder (where i keep "f...ing" stuff i don't want) but i thought i'd get it out of the way instead.

Thanks.

MiniCarver

Tamworth

VFROZ

This is the strangest thread I've ever followed.

In my mind, it can't be the plug, Pair valve or head/gasket.

It has to be coming through the throttle bodies, or more likely the rubber insulator bands (boots).

It's the only thing that makes sense.

Either way, you are going to have to remove them to find out.

Or just cover the damn bike with plastic when it rains.

Best suggestion yet

If this happened once you'd think it would be covered somehow to to make sure it never happened again. Instead this person leaves it out time after time with the same result every time. How anyone can do that to any bike is beyond me. Cover the damn bike when it looks like rain, doesn't matter where you work or where the bike is parked. This engine has been filled with water so many times it's junk now. Good f..ing grief

Ahh so you're one of those "let's cover up broken things because they fix themselves" kind of guys aren't you?

snip

I really can't remember saying that.

Of course you have to find the problem, but don't keep filling the engine with water to do it. I simply can't even imagine letting it happen more than the first time.

+1 on the "stop letting water get into the engine"

The damage being done is irreversible.

At least you have to look at where it could be coming from without saying "he's really good at removing the sparkplug now"

Nobody is having a personal dig at you, for goodness sake is everyone that sensitive now?

We are all watching to see where this is heading, I just gave you my educated opinion from having dismantled these motors many times.

I might be right or I might be wrong, but doing nothing is not fixing it.

Trust me there on top of it , I have seen them(Carvers) pull in at one of the TMac's with a half assembled VF500 that had not been start in years, work all night and by the next morning have it running with a tag on it . Ready for it's inaugural TMac ride.

VFROZ

+1 on the "stop letting water get into the engine"

The damage being done is irreversible.

At least you have to look at where it could be coming from without saying "he's really good at removing the sparkplug now"

Nobody is having a personal dig at you, for goodness sake is everyone that sensitive now?

We are all watching to see where this is heading, I just gave you my educated opinion from having dismantled these motors many times.

I might be right or I might be wrong, but doing nothing is not fixing it.

Switchblade

Trust me there on top of it , I have seen them(Carvers) pull at one of the TMac's with a half assembled VF500 that had not been start in years, work all night and by the next morning have it running with a tag on it . Ready for it's inaugural TMac ride.

I guess somewhere between doing nothing and on top of it is where we lie.

We have been doing everything we could think of and thought we had it corrected several times. That led us to ask for suggestions from the board knowing that along with thoughtful suggestions on what more we could do to troubleshoot the issue we knew we would get a dose of "what a dumbass" comments so no big deal.

Like most VFRD threads this is one is loaded with >90% good suggestions. It may be the weekend before we have time to dig in again but we will let you know when we find something.

Tamworth

I really can't remember saying that.

PUI?

I'm coming from an automotive point of view. So bear with me. Do you have access to a smoke machine? It is used to find Small leaks in emissions systems, .020" openings. Works by placing 'smoke' hose in to system you are checking and sealing the rest of the system [pair for example] turn it on if there is a leak you will see smoke coming out of leaking area. There is also a flow gauge to show if system is tight [no leaks] or flowing [leak]. Has save my onions plenty of times, manifold leaks, exhaust manifold, hoses you name it great diagnostic tool. Good luck in your search, makes things interesting as they say "Its the hunt not the kill". Hope you find your gremlins!! Dana

burnes45

I'm coming from an automotive point of view. So bear with me. Do you have access to a smoke machine? It is used to find Small leaks in emissions systems, .020" openings. Works by placing 'smoke' hose in to system you are checking and sealing the rest of the system [pair for example] turn it on if there is a leak you will see smoke coming out of leaking area. There is also a flow gauge to show if system is tight [no leaks] or flowing [leak]. Has save my onions plenty of times, manifold leaks, exhaust manifold, hoses you name it great diagnostic tool. Good luck in your search, makes things interesting as they say "Its the hunt not the kill". Hope you find your gremlins!! Dana

Sounds like a job for the 2-stroke blender.

Somebody say smokin ?

Well Mr.Carver any updates on the H2o producing VFR ?

Switchblade

Well Mr.Carver any updates on the H2o producing VFR ?

Yeah, cause that rain yall just started gettin stretches all the way over to my side of the state and beyond and it's moving nearly due east.

tbzep

Switchblade

Well Mr.Carver any updates on the H2o producing VFR ?

Yeah, cause that rain yall just started gettin stretches all the way over to my side of the state and beyond and it's moving nearly due east.

I fill your pain .

Switchblade

tbzep

Switchblade

Well Mr.Carver any updates on the H2o producing VFR ?

Yeah, cause that rain yall just started gettin stretches all the way over to my side of the state and beyond and it's moving nearly due east.

I fill your pain .

Dave your typos are nothing if not amusingly disturbing. :wink:

kebrider

Switchblade

tbzep

Switchblade

Well Mr.Carver any updates on the H2o producing VFR ?

Yeah, cause that rain yall just started gettin stretches all the way over to my side of the state and beyond and it's moving nearly due east.

I fill your pain .

Dave your typos are nothing if not amusingly disturbing. :wink:

opps "I feel your pain".

Carvers -

Has there been anything new on this issue?

Thanks a ton for sharing.....

-TC

There like big bears, they are preparing for winter by riding 18 hours by a day !

Switchblade

There like big bears, they are preparing for winter by riding 18 hours by a day !

I didn't think GA had a 'winter' to speak of???

The last few ice storms disagree with you.

SCguy

The last few ice storms disagree with you.

Just ask the Atlanta school kids.

Assuming he used the 6G throttle bodies, I wonder if there is a mating issue with the 5G engine?

Possible future input .

Looks like rain for a couple of days .

Yes... Mini purchased a cover for it, removed the rear cowl/seat cover and carries the bike cover around under a spider bungee now.

Has kept it covered for the past month at home and work while trying to get his 4th gen back to street-able condition.

He will take it down again this winter (remove the frame from the engine) and we will solve the issue over the winter while he rides the 4G for work daily.

We will update when we (finally) find the real cause.

CornerCarver

Yes... Mini purchased a cover for it, removed the rear cowl/seat cover and carries the bike cover around under a spider bungee now.

Has kept it covered for the past month at home and work while trying to get his 4th gen back to street-able condition.

He will take it down again this winter (remove the frame from the engine) and we will solve the issue over the winter while he rides the 4G for work daily.

We will update when we (finally) find the real cause.

Thanks for the update CC.

Switchblade and I helped out a Kentucky VFR rider this past weekend who had an oil hydrolocked CBR1000RR. Apparently parking a CBR upside down will cause such things, even if it is only a minute or two.

kebrider

CornerCarver

Yes... Mini purchased a cover for it, removed the rear cowl/seat cover and carries the bike cover around under a spider bungee now.

Has kept it covered for the past month at home and work while trying to get his 4th gen back to street-able condition.

He will take it down again this winter (remove the frame from the engine) and we will solve the issue over the winter while he rides the 4G for work daily.

We will update when we (finally) find the real cause.

Thanks for the update CC.

Switchblade and I helped out a Kentucky VFR rider this past weekend who had an oil hydrolocked CBR1000RR. Apparently parking a CBR upside down will cause such things, even if it is only a minute or two.

Gotta hear the rest of that story..!

kebrider

CornerCarver

Yes... Mini purchased a cover for it, removed the rear cowl/seat cover and carries the bike cover around under a spider bungee now.

Has kept it covered for the past month at home and work while trying to get his 4th gen back to street-able condition.

He will take it down again this winter (remove the frame from the engine) and we will solve the issue over the winter while he rides the 4G for work daily.

We will update when we (finally) find the real cause.

Thanks for the update CC.

Switchblade and I helped out a Kentucky VFR rider this past weekend who had an oil hydrolocked CBR1000RR. Apparently parking a CBR upside down will cause such things, even if it is only a minute or two.

First for me. I have at least 50 times over the years help pull bikes backup to the road and CBR1000(Marks) was the first to liquid lock and not start. Lucky Kimball had his jump battery with him ,

Rectaltronics

kebrider

CornerCarver

Yes... Mini purchased a cover for it, removed the rear cowl/seat cover and carries the bike cover around under a spider bungee now.

Has kept it covered for the past month at home and work while trying to get his 4th gen back to street-able condition.

He will take it down again this winter (remove the frame from the engine) and we will solve the issue over the winter while he rides the 4G for work daily.

We will update when we (finally) find the real cause.

Thanks for the update CC.

Switchblade and I helped out a Kentucky VFR rider this past weekend who had an oil hydrolocked CBR1000RR. Apparently parking a CBR upside down will cause such things, even if it is only a minute or two.

Gotta hear the rest of that story..!

Story for me was the Pirelli Angle GT rear tire on a 2014 CBR1000. Just dont think it was the right tire for a attempt at triple digit pass on the Dragon.

Ahhh, OK.

I low-sided my '97 and ended up with hydro-lock but I think it was gasoline that did it, not oil, as I was able to crank it an hour later.