Oh. My. God. Damn are you lucky to not have gone down. Between the chain flapping around, its a miracle the rear wheel didn't lock. And then the oil coming out the cases...
3d is right though, that's a very bad sign. I have no idea what would cause such a catastrophic failure of the hub/ sprocket/ cush drive. I have never seen that before.
You need it fully inspected. I've heard of RC51s breaking a chain and taking out the lower engine case. They share the same basic architecture there with the sprocket cover/clutch cylinder area. Best case scenario, the clutch pushrod is bent or the oil seal for the pushrod is damaged.
They must have over tightened the chain and stressed the rear cush drive cover, especially over bumps.
I'm thinking #15 on the Crankcase Diagram. But, look at the dividing line between the cases in relation to the sprocket cover, which isn't plastic by the way. Too much force into the cover can be transmitted to the cases where it bolts and crack them. Especially because they split right there.
That's what it looks like on the diagram, hard to be 100% sure. You should at the very least clean the entire area as best you can to see where any fresh oil is coming from. I can maybe see a drop of oil on the end of the pushrod in your pic, so maybe just that seal is damaged. Be sure the rod hasn't been bent by rolling it on a flat surface.
Clean it and put it back on the sidestand to see where any oil is dripping. It probably isn't now because you have it on the C stand.
Like I said #3 is a cover (metallic) and from what I can gather, seeing as it has a gasket, it can be removed and changed. The guide, #2, would also have to be changed, like anything else that might be damaged.
The metallic cover to the right of the gasket is #3... which includes #22+#23... bearing+seal.
Its part number is 11630-MW4-000 worth about US$80
But like Carver says, you'll have to tear it down and inspect well. Any sideways lashings may have cut into other areas.
I see now what you were asking. That would be a generally positive outcome, versus replacing the whole engine due to cracked cases.
I've been back and forth in the garage looking at the spare engine out there and your pics and the fiche trying to piece together all the possibilities. The spare engine doesn't have that #3 cover on it. The shift star is behind it, and there is the bearing and seal for the shifter shaft in that cover.
It's "staked" normally, meaning there is a small notch in the axle and you hammer a punch into the sleeve of the nut to "stake" it in place. Plus, the normal rotation of the rear wheel means the very little momentum of the nut would serve to tighten it. If no one has ever taken off the nut to service the cush drive or rear bearings, it would have been done at the factory.
My thought is that the chain was too tight and that broke the cover and it all fell away including the sprocket. But seeing that the nut is gone, it's hard to say the nut didn't come off first. Can you go back and look for parts?
That's the beauty of the VFR rear hub, the chain and sprockets can be changed without touching the axle nut at all. The only reason to take the axle nut off is to take off the cush cover to get to the rubber dampeners or pull the axle completely out to service the bearing in the hub. I've only had mine apart once in 102k miles to see if the bearings were ok and to change the rubbers.
I can't recall which direction it is on the 5th gen, it's the opposite on the 6th gen, but if the 17 mm pinch bolt that secures the eccentric on that rear hub is not tightened down properly after adjusting the tension on the chain, riding the bike makes the chain tighten even more on one model and loosens it on the other. Perhaps the mechanic who tightened your chain failed to tighten the pinch bolt adequately... Food for thought?
Sorry for your misfortune. :sad: There was a thread about a year ago with this same issue - IIRC on a 6th gen. Same thing - just going down the road and the rear sprocket departed. He was lucky enough to not have any case damage. Like yours - nothing gave away the cause - somehow the nut backed off and the sprocket, cover and cush drive were just gone. Hopefully this can be fixed an you'll be back on the road soon.
Wow no one mentioned you might have lost your rear wheel ! The only thing holding it in the hub is the brake caliper & associated fittings !
You lost the cush AFTER you lost the axle nut, once it had departed there is NOTHING holding the hub on & due to the shape of the cush rubbers they will push the two halves apart & hey presto.
If a bike EVER loses drive or locks up, you should pull the cluth in & coast to a stop immediately, stop the engine then inspect. The "fiddling about with the shifter" is probably what destroyed the case, the steel chain retainer in front of the front sprocket will contain the chain briefly.
He said it felt only like it jumped out of gear. Sort of natural to put it back into gear. I honestly think maybe the chain was worn out. Either stretched or several stiffened links to where it start to climb up the sprocket. I will bet the sprocket and hub imploded under the stress of comression from the chain becoming super tight and the suspension hamering it tighter. The nut would have nothing to hold to if the hub was collapsed and would effectively be loose.
I just did sprockets and chain on my FZ1. Last adjustment I found the lowest spot of sagging and adjusted it. When I tightened it all back up and turned the wheel by hand it locked up under load from the chain climbing the sprocket teeth. I knew I was dealing with an older chain so called it quits and ordered all new stuff.
A stock 530 chain on steel sprocket can create some awesome destructive forces.
I think it can be fixed and if any one on here has some spare parts they would donate for that rear hub assembly we may be able to help Lee out.
I know it does no good to speculate, but at this point what else is there to do? :D That's why I asked if he could find the parts. I'd love to know if the hub was whole or shattered. Whole would suggest the nut departed first. I just can't understand how that would happen if no one had ever touched it. If the hub broke, then the chain may have caught it and wound it off.
Just for fun, you could take the opportunity to buy a '14 five lug axle and wheel and have something different!
Wow no one mentioned you might have lost your rear wheel ! The only thing holding it in the hub is the brake caliper & associated fittings !
Also gunged up grease. With the sprocket carrier and all else removed it is sometimes very hard to remove the axle from the bearing carrier.
8 hours ago, Mohawk
You lost the cush AFTER you lost the axle nut, once it had departed there is NOTHING holding the hub on & due to the shape of the cush rubbers they will push the two halves apart & hey presto.
If the sprocket carrier was pushed sideways, off the axle splines, the chain would have eaten through the chain guard and also would have to significantly increase in length.
It is the third time I have seen this happen here on VFRD and would sure like to have some clue as to what is the cause.
This is totally different than I pictured happened. A few years ago a VFRW member had posted how his sprocket bolts had come undone and the bolts actually started cutting into his swing-arm (2nd Gen VFR). According to the post, he used the correct amount of torque as he used hin mini sledge hammer to tighten them. This lead to the term used over there "use a torque hammer"!
Glad you didn't have a worse experience Lee but wow! That's something that's going to stick in my mind for a while. I'm going to have to be more diligent on doing my pre-ride inspection. It's saved me a few times, mostly with low tire pressure i.e. nail in the tire and a backed out bolt or two.
Also gunged up grease. With the sprocket carrier and all else removed it is sometimes very hard to remove the axle from the bearing carrier.
If the sprocket carrier was pushed sideways, off the axle splines, the chain would have eaten through the chain guard and also would have to significantly increase in length.
It is the third time I have seen this happen here on VFRD and would sure like to have some clue as to what is the cause.
If you over tighten a chain on a standard swingarm bike, the sprocket is much bigger and bolted much more substantial stuff and the chain gives out first.
Maybe the cast aluminum in our rear assemblies aren't aging well? Or just more susceptible to cracks and breaks?
Also agree on your other points. Getting the axle out on purpose is tough enough! I'm sure it would be pretty difficult to remove the hub with the chain on, as well.
I would suggest that everyone check their axle nuts frequently. I recently found mine had backed off nearly a full turn. Fortunately all I had to do was re-torque, and stake.
The back wheel btw, seems to be held on just fine by its 4 lug nuts.
I think you misunderstood. When the left side axle nut is removed, there is NOTHING designed to hold the axle in the hub. The only parts stopping it departing are the rear brake caliper mounting bracket circlip & the torque arm, neither of which is designed to take side loading. If you induced a hard side loading, like going through a chicane or a flip flop turn, the wheel could depart stage right, with the 4 lug nuts tight & the whole axle attached !!!
I just did sprockets and chain on my FZ1. Last adjustment I found the lowest spot of sagging and adjusted it. When I tightened it all back up and turned the wheel by hand it locked up under load from the chain climbing the sprocket teeth.
That was your problem you used the WRONG technique !
You are supposed to find the TIGHTEST part of the chain then adjust with that part on the lower run clearance, that guarantees that ALL of the chain will never be tighter than the tightest part. By adjusting to the loosest part you will either lock up or overload the bearings in the drive shaft or sprocket/cush, more so during suspension compression.
I think you misunderstood. When the left side axle nut is removed, there is NOTHING designed to hold the axle in the hub. The only parts stopping it departing are the rear brake caliper mounting bracket circlip & the torque arm, neither of which is designed to take side loading. If you induced a hard side loading, like going through a chicane or a flip flop turn, the wheel could depart stage right, with the 4 lug nuts tight & the whole axle attached !!!
OK, I did not quite follow that before. Now you make me worry about rolling it out to the street for degreasing.
I'm sure not doing it in the garage or driveway.
I have half a mind to unload it to someone who wants a project, because I have enough things to do.
If you wanted to take it out on purpose, with the swing arm off the bike with wheel and brake parts removed, you'd wonder why it was secured with a nut.
I'd love the project, but you're a continent away...
Some of the parts on the rear wheel diagram are shown as not available. Even if they were it looks like several hundred dollars of parts. Bought new. Fak. :comp13:
Glad you are safe Lee...I am about 70 miles away from 100,000 miles on a rogue trip up to South Dakota. .will check mine in the morning at the hotel. 2002 here.
With the chain on the sprocket, the sprocket carrier is held onto the axle by the chain. In other words, with everything in place (other than the nut) you cannot ordinarily get the carrier to clear the end of the axle. But, with no nut holding it together I could see the play in the cush rubbers allowing the outer part of the carrier to skew and thus be destroyed in short order. Too bad we'll never know for sure what happened.
I recall once trying to find a lost hubcap on a lonely stretch of 101...the freeway seems much longer when you're on foot!
It will be fine to wheel about, just don't be surprised if you hear the rear brake rubbing. If the axle has never been serviced, then it may be lightly seized in the left side bearings !
It's difficult to describe the rear hub if you haven't seen one. That's all cast aluminum and there are rubber bits that fit between them and similar wedges on the outer hub. The drive sprocket pulls the chain, which pulls the rear sprocket, which is bolted to the outer hub. That's all metal to metal contact, so then the outer hub acts on the rubber cush drive which acts on those wedges you see to drive the rear axle. The idea being to dampen the forces involved.
My personal theory is that because cast metal is very brittle, the tightness of the chain caused it to shatter as it tightened and loosened as the swingarm moved up and down. It went away, and the chain moving over the nut unwound it as well.
Some of the parts on the rear wheel diagram are shown as not available. Even if they were it looks like several hundred dollars of parts. Bought new. Fak. :comp13:
Other bits and pieces (cush's, bolts, nut, etc.) might be ordered from Partzilla, ProCaliber or similar and get the whole job done for a reasonable sum. Sometimes when something like this happens I set it aside for a while so I can cool off and reflect on it before making a decision. I hope you get it running again. Best of luck with it.
That was your problem you used the WRONG technique !
You are supposed to find the TIGHTEST part of the chain then adjust with that part on the lower run clearance, that guarantees that ALL of the chain will never be tighter than the tightest part. By adjusting to the loosest part you will either lock up or overload the bearings in the drive shaft or sprocket/cush, more so during suspension compression.
Kudos for Mohawk for catching my mistake. Yep. I said that backward but did it correctly. the problem and the point was that my chain had more than a couple tight links and it and the rear sprocket were worn beyond safe service life. My problem was a stretched out chain and rear sprocket teeth that were J'd out and they no longer meshed. Thanks for correctly pointing out proper technique. More important is to not over use a chain and sprocket set and double check your adjustment before riding.
Lee pointed out to me his chain was still reasonably serviceable. So who knows. If the thing just felt like it jumped out of gear it had to be a very quick departure.
Lee, I for one would not blame you one bit if you decided to sell it off and maybe one of your Tuono's and bought an 8 gen. Hell I may just join you after I sell my RC51. I think they are brilliant bikes and I do miss owning a VFR already. Super glad you didn't crash too brother from another mother.
Picked out some of the worst grunge. Got the chain guard off. Pulled out another piece of the broken inner cover with my fingers. Looks like the gasket was green. The thing appears wider than I thought. I guess the sprocket needs to come off to see more. The stand on the brake to prevent the sprocket turning while you remove bolt is obviously not working. Hmm...
a large crow bar or pry bar jammed into the teeth while pinned to the bottom of the swing and and the ground below may get it to hold while you torque it loose.
DO NOT round off that bolt head! Use a quality short socket and a long breaker bar. You should be able to stick it in first gear, sit on the bike, put on the brakes and push the bar down with your foot. With a long enough lever (and a place to stand, of course), you can move the world!
Lee, I put a piece of wood to hold the wheel against one of the spokes. Then I used an 18" break bar (longer is better). That nut came right off with a loud snap with very little effort.
You can also try and put a screwdriver through the chain links, basically make a closed loop and jam the screw driver against the foot peg. In all honesty, the number of post here telling you what you can do is actually taking longer than it should take you to do it!
I'm stalling cuz I don't want to deal with it, and it's 102 degrees out now. :comp13:
Don't get me wrong I wasn't making fun of you for not doing the work yet, just the time it took for the number of post that have been made on how and what to do.
I have an idea. The weekend of the 10th and 11th I should be free to come have a look and help some. Lets take a ride up Little T to the Rock Inn for breakfast then head back to your garage and see what's AFU on your VFR.
You're confusing me. The bolt heads are countersunk but a 12mm socket fits fine. 14mm for the nuts. If they break on removal it's OK. The replacement parts have those 4 bolts and nuts included.
It was a couple years back, after SumSum2 I believe, when I did it so my memory is not real clear but I believe I tried several different 12mm sockets and it seemed to want to carve or round off the bolt head. Perhaps it needed something extra like heat or penetrating oil.
I'll keep that in mind if I ever do it again. And I may have to have a word with my service advisor.
Veefer800Canuck There's an idea. chop a few mm off the end of a socket so it's absolutely square.
You can get perfectly square edged sockets, without the chamfer or scalloping most have for "ease of use".
Those bolt heads are low profile so yes, you need the square edged sockets, an impact socket wrench and a big heavy mallet (plus steady hands and good hand-eye coordination). That's how I did it.
I called a guy from Craigslist who turned out to be an excellent guy.
Got the most important stuff put back together, attach the Bolt power pack, and she fired right up.
Just gotta get a battery, put on the chain guard and side fairing, air tires, lube chain, figure why the odo and clock is not coming on, clean it up and ride. :beer:
On my knees, on my feet, where's that tool? Repeat 2 or 300 times over 6 1/2 hours. I'm worn out. :wacko:
Hey, I'm ready to give you back the 46mm socket. And Bob his chain tool and stuff. Thanks again for those. :beer:
No way I would have got this done by my lonesome. Gotta give some props to Jose Q whose number I found on Craiglist. He is better with this stuff than I am.
When he came and looked at it yesterday, he was not wanting to get involved with this basket case that he did not take apart, and did not know how to put back together w/o a lot of RTFM. I think he never worked on a VFR before either. But he agreed to help me, and I paid by the hour, since I knew mostly how it went together, and had the manual. So, the hard stuff is done. Too bad it's supposed to rain tomorrow. :wink:
Hey, I'm ready to give you back the 46mm socket. And Bob his chain tool and stuff. Thanks again for those. :beer:
No way I would have got this done by my lonesome. Gotta give some props to Jose Q whose number I found on Craiglist. He is better with this stuff than I am.
When he came and looked at it yesterday, he was not wanting to get involved with this basket case that he did not take apart, and did not know how to put back together w/o a lot of RTFM. I think he never worked on a VFR before either. But he agreed to help me, and I paid by the hour, since I knew mostly how it went together, and had the manual. So, the hard stuff is done. Too bad it's supposed to rain tomorrow. :wink:
No worries, glad it came in handy for a VFR owner, as I bought it to work on a friend's Ducati Street Fighter. I also had to buy a 28MM socket for his front wheel, had to be the one socket I didn't already have! Not sure if Bob or I will be able to see you first but if possible it would be cool to meet for a ride and then get it from you directly. If Bob happens to be meeting up with you first, you can just hand it to him and I'll meet up with him. He's only a few miles from me.
Awesome Lee. So much has come up between work, home and the FZ1 electrical gremlin infestation I feel bad I couldn't come by and help finish the vfr with you.
Believe it or not you are well on your way to being a basic MC mechanic. Great idea to have a pro finish it so you know it is safe and sound. Let's ride soon.
Wow, look at you, or the VFR Nice, see, that wasn't so hard now was it ;) congrats. anything worth it seems to take time. Sorry to hear about the rain though, in that I can't help you.
Congrats, man. I've been following this thread from afar, and although it's beyond my skill level, it's very inspiring to see someone tackle a problem beyond their skill level and see it through.
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