5th-Gen fork Upgrades

Hello All--greetings from Madison, Wisconsin! While I'm certain this topic has already been beaten to death (and I've read many of the threads), I'm going to ask about it again. With something just over 3,000 miles on my '00 VFR since November, I've come to the same conclusion as many of you--the stock suspension is barely adequate to the bike it graces. I've talked with Jamie Daugherty (picked up the bike in Fort Wayne, too), and I'll definitely go with his re-tooled 929 rear shock. For the forks, though, there seem to be a plethora of options. If I stay with stock forks, Jamie's cartridge kit will go in my fork. However, there's also the brake de-link with Super Hawk lowers and brakes, or the RC51 build, with RC51 lower triple and Super Hawk upper triple. Has anyone here experienced more than one of these options? For someone like me, who's willing with a wrench but lacks welding, fabrication or engineering skills (sorry--bioscience, languages and healthcare background), is the RC51 mod too much for me to take on? As it obviously changes effective trail due to the changed fork offset, does it radically change the character of the bike? And for someone like me, who will never race but might do a few track days here and there, is the RC51 mod overkill? I have to change my upper tubes soon (bad pitting), so I'm trying to decide on the most sensible direction to take this wonderful bike. Thanks in advance, everyone, for your input!

Oh--here's a recent pic of my Yellow Bird...

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I haven't seen any yellow 5th gens on the streets of Fitchburg lately, a red 6th a few days ago tho...

I've got Jamie's internals, Superhawk lowers, and 929/954 calipers (4 piston, the superhawk only has 2 piston and it's a straight swap).  Out back I'm running a Nitron 3-way.  The setup is absolutely brilliant and I doubt I could use much more performance on the roads around WI.

If your uppers are shot, the RC51 choice is yours since you are basically buying new forks.  I don't really like servicing USD forks, so they weren't really on the table.  However, I have no plans to track the VFR.

My two cents, if you're fine with the 5 Gen brakes, then doing DMr fork internals is a very cost effective upgrade and is well worth the cost. I have had all three of my bikes redone by Jamie and all three have been revitalized! If you find that the brakes are in need of an upgrade, installing VTR forks and calipers would be the easiest upgrade and would most likely be worth the time and effort.

Although I track my 5 Gen, I kept the stock braking system and just updated the internals. As I mentioned above, it is now a very revitalized and capable bike. I'm sure a de-linking and installing better calipers would do even more for me, I am not that interested in doing all that work for something that I'm happy with already.

MadScientist I haven't seen any yellow 5th gens on the streets of Fitchburg lately, a red 6th a few days ago tho...
 
I've got Jamie's internals, Superhawk lowers, and 929/954 calipers (4 piston, the superhawk only has 2 piston and it's a straight swap).  Out back I'm running a Nitron 3-way.  The setup is absolutely brilliant and I doubt I could use much more performance on the roads around WI.
 
If your uppers are shot, the RC51 choice is yours since you are basically buying new forks.  I don't really like servicing USD forks, so they weren't really on the table.  However, I have no plans to track the VFR.

I'll move the Madison discussion to PM, but a follow up to Duc2v4

The real reason I delinked the brakes was because I hated bleeding them.  The 4 piston calipers are just a nice addition and were cheap enough with all the wrecked fireblades.  The pair cost me less than $100 with a MC on ebay.  They needed a rebuild, but I would have needed to buy and rebuild vtr calipers just the same.

My 2 cents is in a question How much do you not want to spend?   I've done Jamie's up grade as well,  best money spent.  but right with it is the Delink, bIMO another well spent money.  The process is pretty cut and dry. I didn't have really any thing major bite me.  only thing that slowed me down was how I wanted the new front brake line to route as it was ordered with a no money back guarantee, meaning we make,  it's yours,  so I looked it over a many times before hand. There's a many of these spelled out in google,  its your friend.  That said MY O My does the Viffer stop now.

RVFR My 2 cents is in a question How much do you not want to spend?   I've done Jamie's up grade as well,  best money spent.  but right with it is the Delink, bIMO another well spent money.  The process is pretty cut and dry. I didn't have really any thing major bite me.  only thing that slowed me down was how I wanted the new front brake line to route as it was ordered with a no money back guarantee, meaning we make,  it's yours,  so I looked it over a many times before hand. There's a many of these spelled out in google,  its your friend.  That said MY O My does the Viffer stop now.

I started with Jamie's compression valve and springs in the stock forks, then added VTR  adjusters and a rebound Gold Valve, then moved to VTR lowers and CBR600F4 brakes, now I have CBR600F4 forks in 6G triples with 6G bars.

I blame eBay. Don't tell my wife.

The biggest step change is to the damper internals, and will make a huge difference to the bike's ability to deal with bumps with confidence. The VFR stock front end is undersprung and has restrictive high-speed damping especially in compression, that stop it absorbing bumps nicely. I use 0.9kg/mm springs, and have replaced both the compression valves and rebound. If you are happy with the VFR brakes, I'd stop right there, IMHO that is 95% of the total improvement that you will get.

I got the urge to add adjustable rebound damping, so I bought some lightly bent VTR forks and used the fork caps and damper rod parts. Just so I could play with the rebound bleed adjustment. The damper cartridge parts, fork seals, fork bushes  etc are all interchangeable between VTR and VFR.

So I had some VTR lowers just laying about...add some CBR600F4 brakes and I had the de-link going. Used the VFR uppers. Made my own fender adaptor plates. The VFR wheel and axle slot straight in. The brakes needed to be shimmed off the fork mounts by 3mm to centre nicely on the discs. CBR600 calipers interfere with the lower fork mounts, and the latter need a little filing to fit nicely. Could you use a VTR mudguard? I'm going to say probably no, the guard slips over the outside of the fork mounts, and the VFR fork spacing is wider so these just won't fit. As far as I recall, the VTR uppers are near enough to the same length as the VFR, certainly within 5mm, so near enough to interchangeable.

I do prefer the separate brakes, but had no problem with the linked system either.

Then I had another urge, to upgrade to CBR600F4 forks; these are 43mm diameter, so significantly stiffer than 41mm forks, and came with adjustable compression damping, something I wanted to experiment with. The 5G wheel/axle fit straight in, and the 5G guard fitted perfectly at the lower mount, and needed a simple bracket to mate with the top fork mounts. 

The problem with modifying this stuff is knowing when to stop. I would find myself riding along and wondering whether a little more rebound damping might be good, or a little less compression damping. Within reason, now I can just stop and pull out a screw driver, but the reality is once you have taken out the junky OEM damper parts and got the shim stacks right, there's not much to be gained with further fine-tuning. Jamie's recommended set-up was close to but not quite the best for me, but I think that comes down to individual preferences, and I've learned that like pillows and mood lighting, I prefer my suspension on the softer end of the scale, as I (think) tend to ride fairly smoothly.

[image: IMG_3330.JPG]

Ah in my case with the brakes and forks,  it was kinda done in a two step process, but knew right off the bat the forks where to be done asap, so sent them off to Jamie, could I have done it?  Probably,  but time was kinda crazy and had a couple things to do with the VFR that was going to take the week, so shipped em off to Jamie to work his magic on.   it was during the next part of the re dos, when I saw the brake mess that I decided it too needed done.  it took a few months to gather the parts for the de link, but was very doable once the parts where here, I went 04 CBR600f41 master and calibers with SH lowers, rear brake was just a rear MC change didn't see the need to do the bridge line to work the 3rd pot,   so far so good.  On the fender brackets, that's easy,  it's  a Mello Dude VFRD member thing. speigler were the folks Iused for the front brake line.   As far as the forks go time wise,  send em off,  they'll be back in no time,  in my case 9 days. no fuss no mess.

[image: DSCF1027_zpstprpbnra.jpg]

MsRN98, I have an extra set of Mello Dude's 5th gen fender-to-VTR fork adaptors if you're interested.

RVFR and Terry, what was the turnaround time on your suspension projects with Jamie?

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After replacing springs to 0.95kg/mm, I went to a local well known suspension builder for a front high flow compression piston replacement and custom shim stack.

It was crap, went back, still crap.

Decided I could do better, or at least, no worse.

My end shim stack/oil choice was much better (many times dismantling forks and experimenting), but could not get it to what I thought it was capable off.

Then I went the VTR lowers (with the rebound adjustment) and 954 calipers.

I then went with high flow rebound pistons/shim stack, it was much better still (more times dismantling forks and experimenting). This actually helped the compression stack a lot more then I realized it would.

Now I have great suspension and even greater brakes.

But I can now notice the fork flex when pushed hard.

If I started from scratch again, I would go the 43mm swap, a bit more money but well worth it in my own opinion (not as much as going UD forks, and better geometry).

I received a lot of help from members here, specially Terry.

Getting ready made internals is an easy step, and JD has a good reputation in this forum, but I now realize how much doing it myself taught me about suspension.

If you have a bit of mechanical knowledge/time, and good tools, it's not too hard to do.

If you don't have a feeling for lack off or too much rebound/compression damping, it might be better to get it ready made.

Suspension is very personal. Nobody can build you the perfect suspension for you, they can only give you something that is ok for most, after that they need your feed back.

Either way, anything is better then stock (badly undersprung, badly damped).

Rear is even worse, but you really need to do both together, they need balance for good handling.

RVFR, nice picture of your machine...
A friend(mentor), long agony had a saying, "when I get the urge to work, I sit down and wait for the urge to pass" haha. Good advice, no? Who listens to good advice, time to play is better!
Do what you are comfortable/able to accomplish, anything is better than stock.

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2 hours ago, sfdownhill

MsRN98, I have an extra set of Mello Dude's 5th gen fender-to-VTR fork adaptors if you're interested.

RVFR and Terry, what was the turnaround time on your suspension projects with Jamie?

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[image: IMG_0574.JPG]

I live far, far away from Jamie. I ordered just the parts and did the rest myself. I have had a little experience with fork tinkering and fitted springs and Gold Valves to my RF900 forks. Jamie's parts are a very similar to Gold Valves, and generally cheaper, so in my view functionally they are interchangeable. Race Tech do however provide a lot of background info with their parts and these give useful recipes for shim stacks, and their spring rate recommendations are pretty correct too, and I used those to guide my changes.

Forks are easy enough to rebuild; the only bit that can give trouble is getting the bolts out of the bottom of the forks, as these screw into the dampers, which can spin in place if you are unlucky. An impact driver can overcome this, but I've mostly been lucky in that regard. If it happens, pulling up hard on the extended damper can add enough friction to stop the spinning, but some have had to resort to drilling off the bolt head.

If anyone wants advice I'd happily share what I've learned. I've had plenty of help with other bike issues from forum folks.

sfdownhill MsRN98, I have an extra set of Mello Dude's 5th gen fender-to-VTR fork adaptors if you're interested.
 
RVFR and Terry, what was the turnaround time on your suspension projects with Jamie?
 
[image: IMG_0573.thumb.JPG.24eb7e18c530c38c62b90ef37fd2f2fc.JPG]
 
 
 
[image: IMG_0574.thumb.JPG.c7dea601d7a9102e86d448be23971329.JPG]

Yes Mello is the man

his brackets mounted

[image: DSCF0974_zpsgwiiui0l.jpg]

   It took 9 days turn around sending the forks UPS to Jamie 

Here's a few more pennies to add. I have installed SS lines on both of my VFRs and the 5 Gen was a bit of a snap compared to the 6 Gen, probably because I didn't strip the rear sub frame off of the bike. That alone would actually suggest that the 6 Gen would require more work anyway as I didn't have to on the 5 Gen nor had the same amount of effort dealing with them.

As far as bleeding, I now have it down to a science and have actually had several people come over for my assistance with it and once you put speed bleeders on (Something I highly recommend linked brakes or not) bleeding is a snap. I think bleeding linked brakes might be intimidating at first, ultimately it just means more bleed points.

MsRN98 you are going out your project correctly - the more data points you have, the better your decision making can be. Over the past year I've learned to treat the advice of vfrd 'old hands' like Terry, Duc2V4, RVFR, and others as valuable advice from very experienced, very expensive lawyers, but without the cost. They have, without exception, had my best interest in mind when helping me with insights. I will PM you.

Oh, and +2 on Duc2V4's assessment of 5th gen stock brake hoses. Because of the number of brake hoses, it is critical that you fill and bleed carefully and, after the last step of filling/bleeding, zip tie your brake lever gently toward the handlebar and use a tiedown run through your center stand to press the brake pedal, then leave them that way overnight. This allows any residual bubbles to slowly escape upward while the system is under light pressure.

Thanks for the DMr info terry and RVFR.

My 2 cents worth on brake upgrades (assuming you go this path) is that my preference would be for early CBR600RR brakes, rather than the CBR600F4 set. The RR (and 954 and SP2) uses smaller 30/32mm pistons and a bigger master (17.46mm) which in my experience gives the best brake feel/power combo. The 600F4i uses a smaller master (15.87mm) and bigger caliper pistons (32/34mm) so is a more powerful set up (more pad pressure for a given squeeze) but with a soft lever feel. I have a 954 set on my VTR, and 600F4i on the VFR, and I much prefer the former, although I'm still using stock hoses with the VTR and braided hoses on the VFR. I swapped out the F4i master for the larger and visually identical 600RR master on my VFR, and that is an improvement.

I'm running SP2 calipers and master cylinder. Very happy with it....

The drive for me was to keep it stock looking,  which the f4i master is a dead ringer for what was coming off. I'm not sure what Terry is referring too being soft,  these bit hard and now,  it's probably a personal feel which i get. either way it's way better than what it was.  I'm still try to decide on working it to install a 8th gen rear caliber.   but for now it's ok. but just the size of the rear caliber is kinda like,  Really? 

I'd follow Terry and Mello w 30/32 front calipers and a 17.46mm master cylinder [11/16 cast into the reservoir] found on RC51 SP2s and early CBR600RRs. There is a close cousin to the 17.46mm front master available in the 15.875mm [5/8 cast into the reservoir] found on F4 and up CBR600's and others. I believe it was older ST1100s that had 16mm masters - not sure. I've gathered a bunch of data, all from guys on here who have been there, done that.

Speaking of master cylinders, my notes show VTR, RC51, and F4i all having the popular-for-VFR-delink 14mm rear master cylinders. Is this accurate? Since we are talking about a fork upgrade which possibly includes a brake delink, I hope this doesn't qualify as a thread hijack.

Are any of these rear master cylinders favored over the others? Do they all have pushrods that are too long for the VFR and need to be cut down?

RVFR I was just rereading your post from early in this thread - dang your bike takes a purty photo! Sorry I didn't see that you'd already stated your suspension turn around time before I asked. I might have missed the answer to this question too, but which rear master cylinder did you select?

sfdownhill Speaking of master cylinders, my notes show VTR, RC51, and F4i all having the popular-for-VFR-delink 14mm rear master cylinders. Is this accurate? Since we are talking about a fork upgrade which possibly includes a brake delink, I hope this doesn't qualify as a thread hijack.
 
Are any of these rear master cylinders favored over the others? Do they all have pushrods that are too long for the VFR and need to be cut down?
 
RVFR I was just rereading your post from early in this thread - dang your bike takes a purty photo! Sorry I didn't see that you'd already stated your suspension turn around time before I asked. I might have missed the answer to this question too, but which rear master cylinder did you select?

4 hours ago, RVFR

The drive for me was to keep it stock looking,  which the f4i master is a dead ringer for what was coming off. I'm not sure what Terry is referring too being soft,  these bit hard and now,  it's probably a personal feel which i get. either way it's way better than what it was.  I'm still try to decide on working it to install a 8th gen rear caliber.   but for now it's ok. but just the size of the rear caliber is kinda like,  Really? 

 Yep, all down to personal preference. I found the F4i master and brakes had a bit more grab than I wanted, I prefer to use a bit more force when I want more stopping. With braided lines, there is little flex in the system. 

46 minutes ago, sfdownhill

Speaking of master cylinders, my notes show VTR, RC51, and F4i all having the popular-for-VFR-delink 14mm rear master cylinders. Is this accurate? Since we are talking about a fork upgrade which possibly includes a brake delink, I hope this doesn't qualify as a thread hijack.

Are any of these rear master cylinders favored over the others? Do they all have pushrods that are too long for the VFR and need to be cut down?

RVFR I was just rereading your post from early in this thread - dang your bike takes a purty photo! Sorry I didn't see that you'd already stated your suspension turn around time before I asked. I might have missed the answer to this question too, but which rear master cylinder did you select?

I used a 600F4i rear master, and did have to cut the pushrod down to fit; a hacksaw makes short (see what I did there?) work of it. IIRC there was something in the mounts that needed modifying, maybe they were threaded and just needed to be drilled out? I know it was no big deal. 

You can leave the back caliper totally untouched, and just take both the stock brake lines to your new master, and use a double banjo bolt to connect them there. There is a suitable double banjo in the linked brakes that you can re-purpose for the job. The stock lines fit like they were made to have this done.

Terry I used a 600F4i rear master, and did have to cut the pushrod down to fit; a hacksaw makes short (see what I did there?) work of it. IIRC there was something in the mounts that needed modifying, maybe they were threaded and just needed to be drilled out? I know it was no big deal. 
 
You can leave the back caliper totally untouched, and just take both the stock brake lines to your new master, and use a double banjo bolt to connect them there. There is a suitable double banjo in the linked brakes that you can re-purpose for the job. The stock lines fit like they were made to have this done.

50 minutes ago, MsRN98

You are right about them being threaded, IIRC.

Doesn't the rear caliper have to be bridged or something?


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Not if you use both lines to new rear master. 

I used a 2010 CBR250RR rear master and only had to drill out the threads from mounting holes, length was spot on. 

Some guys use the two stock lines on the rear or some do the bridge thing. I did one stock line and the bridge ... .(I think I was first) 

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I too used the F4i rear. Like Terry, and the others that have done this,  one needs to cut off a bit off the plunger rod,   I used a diamond Dremel cut of wheel  as I found out after I installed it,  just made it a easier to do. I thought about doing what Terry did with just attaching both lines,  thing is, in my head when using the rear brake before you only activate two pots any way, so didn't think leaving more of the what I considered unnecessary was my view.  I'm still looking at the 8th gen rear caliber and or what ever may work there in place of this huge caliber. 

Great feedback gentlemen - thanks. Cutting an F4i rear master pushrod sounds mandatory and is no big deal.

Terry, I wouldn't say your humor has me rolling round on the ground, but I did laugh at your wordplay. You pointing it out made it even funnier.

OZ, as far as I know, your use of the CBR250R rear master is new to the party, and it's 14mm. Cool.

Old news, but when I was working mine, I had a 4th gen. I liked the rear brake on the 4th, so for calculations, I looked for mc combinations that would come close to a model of the rear 4th gen. The 2 answers via calculator were the 14mm and the 3 pistons and then 1/2"  and the 2 pistons.  

I feel a plan coming together, with CBR600 F4i forks, 6th-Gen clamps and bars (I assume these run essentially the same geometry as the 5th-Gen?). Not sure if I can easily run 600RR brakes; if not, F4i brakes/MC will do. I Iike the idea of the CBR250R rear MC and double banjo bolt to the stock caliper. That leaves sourcing new brake lines and a way of mounting the front fender, and eventually the rear shock.


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Terry I started with Jamie's compression valve and springs in the stock forks, then added VTR  adjusters and a rebound Gold Valve, then moved to VTR lowers and CBR600F4 brakes, now I have CBR600F4 forks in 6G triples with 6G bars.
 
I blame eBay. Don't tell my wife.
 
The biggest step change is to the damper internals, and will make a huge difference to the bike's ability to deal with bumps with confidence. The VFR stock front end is undersprung and has restrictive high-speed damping especially in compression, that stop it absorbing bumps nicely. I use 0.9kg/mm springs, and have replaced both the compression valves and rebound. If you are happy with the VFR brakes, I'd stop right there, IMHO that is 95% of the total improvement that you will get.
 
I got the urge to add adjustable rebound damping, so I bought some lightly bent VTR forks and used the fork caps and damper rod parts. Just so I could play with the rebound bleed adjustment. The damper cartridge parts, fork seals, fork bushes  etc are all interchangeable between VTR and VFR.
 
So I had some VTR lowers just laying about...add some CBR600F4 brakes and I had the de-link going. Used the VFR uppers. Made my own fender adaptor plates. The VFR wheel and axle slot straight in. The brakes needed to be shimmed off the fork mounts by 3mm to centre nicely on the discs. CBR600 calipers interfere with the lower fork mounts, and the latter need a little filing to fit nicely. Could you use a VTR mudguard? I'm going to say probably no, the guard slips over the outside of the fork mounts, and the VFR fork spacing is wider so these just won't fit. As far as I recall, the VTR uppers are near enough to the same length as the VFR, certainly within 5mm, so near enough to interchangeable.
 
I do prefer the separate brakes, but had no problem with the linked system either.
 
Then I had another urge, to upgrade to CBR600F4 forks; these are 43mm diameter, so significantly stiffer than 41mm forks, and came with adjustable compression damping, something I wanted to experiment with. The 5G wheel/axle fit straight in, and the 5G guard fitted perfectly at the lower mount, and needed a simple bracket to mate with the top fork mounts. 
 
The problem with modifying this stuff is knowing when to stop. I would find myself riding along and wondering whether a little more rebound damping might be good, or a little less compression damping. Within reason, now I can just stop and pull out a screw driver, but the reality is once you have taken out the junky OEM damper parts and got the shim stacks right, there's not much to be gained with further fine-tuning. Jamie's recommended set-up was close to but not quite the best for me, but I think that comes down to individual preferences, and I've learned that like pillows and mood lighting, I prefer my suspension on the softer end of the scale, as I (think) tend to ride fairly smoothly.
 
 
[image: IMG_3330.thumb.JPG.1903f013c6b4b278c9102850c39ee3a8.JPG]

The 600F4i forks use exactly the same crappy HMAS pistons in the cartridge as the 5G, and also use a similarly weedy set of springs, so at the very least I would replace the compression valve and springs, but preferable the rebound valves too. Hit Jamie up for some parts pricing, or go to Sonic for some springs.

The 600F4i forks are a touch shorter, maybe 10mm, than the 5G, so you will have slightly quicker steering, but I've had no instability and no shortage of ground clearance. I also have a Daugherty shock which is longer than stock so the geometry of the bike is at the faster end of the spectrum. Of course with decent springs, the forks will probably be riding a little higher than stock, so swings and roundabouts.

The benefit of the 600F4i forks is adjustability, stiffness, and the ease of fitting 4-piston brakes.They also use a wider set of bushings which I think make for less deflection/stiction.

6G triples are a direct swap, and the only adjustment I needed was to get the steering lock to align properly; the ignition barrel was sitting up a bit high so I added a couple of washers between the triple and the ignition to move the latter down a little.

The 5G mudguard fits nicely to the 600F4i forks and the lower mounts line up exactly. The 600F4i fork has a top mount behind the leg, and I riveted a couple of small aluminium strips to the 5G guard to mate with these; I drilled and tapped holes in the strips to accept the mounting bolts. The other option is to get a 600F4i mudguard of course.

As far as I can measure/feel, the 5G wheel, axle and spacers fit the 600F4i fork without any adjustment needed, and actually I think my bike tracks straighter now that it did when stock.

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4 hours ago, MsRN98

I feel a plan coming together, with CBR600 F4i forks, 6th-Gen clamps and bars (I assume these run essentially the same geometry as the 5th-Gen?). Not sure if I can easily run 600RR brakes; if not, F4i brakes/MC will do. I Iike the idea of the CBR250R rear MC and double banjo bolt to the stock caliper. That leaves sourcing new brake lines and a way of mounting the front fender, and eventually the rear shock.


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As far as I know, the 03-04  600RR brakes will be a direct fit to F4i forks, the castings of all of those 4-piston brakes looks to be the same across the 929, 954, 600F4i, SP1, SP2 and 600RR, with just some variation in piston size; they also all use the same pads. Later 600RR's use radial mount brakes which are of course unsuitable.

A better photo of the 5G guard on the 600F4i forks, showing the mount modification for the rear. I fitted the stock nut and bolt in the unused 5G top mount just for appearnces, but they don't do anything structural. I messed up slightly with the position of the rear mount, hence the slight downward angle of the front of the guard, I'm sure it made the aerodynamics better though!

[image: IMG_2733.JPG]

Terry A better photo of the 5G guard on the 600F4i forks, showing the mount modification for the rear. I fitted the stock nut and bolt in the unused 5G top mount just for appearnces, but they don't do anything structural. I messed up slightly with the position of the rear mount, hence the slight downward angle of the front of the guard, I'm sure it made the aerodynamics better though!
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600F4i fender on 600F4i forks??? That will fit just like Mr Honda intended. The fork leg spacing side to side on the 600F4i is exactly the same as the 6G.

I actually have 600F4i fender fitted right now (not needed, just more random eBay shopping when bored...).

Terry 600F4i fender on 600F4i forks??? That will fit just like Mr Honda intended. The fork leg spacing side to side on the 600F4i is exactly the same as the 6G.
 
I actually have 600F4i fender fitted right now (not needed, just more random eBay shopping when bored...).

Mud guard?   Do you ride in the Mud?    I see em as fenders,   you guys crack me up..  :goofy:

What do they fend off? Ships? Evil?


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Ha! One thing they do not fend off is deer! It might castrate a sheep though. If you hit it right.

Maxswell - have you ever heard Woody Allen's standup [audio] bit about hitting a deer in upstate NY?

MsRN98 I'm attaching a couple tables the guys here have shared. I believe Mello built the rear brake ratio chart. I don't recall the origin of the USD fork chart, but you're leaning toward F4i, so the USD fork data is just interesting reading.

[image: Rear Brake Ratios.jpg]

Copy of Inverted Fork Swap Data Excel 2003.xls

33 minutes ago, sfdownhill

Maxswell - have you ever heard Woody Allen's standup [audio] bit about hitting a deer in upstate NY?

Nope. Quick search finds nothing on utube

TerryWhat do they fend off? Ships? Evil?


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MaxSwell Ha! One thing they do not fend off is deer! It might castrate a sheep though. If you hit it right.

Seeing as how we are posting up tables, here's one I made earlier which shows the calculated ratio of the total front brake piston area divided by the master cylinder area. This is a crude way of comparing the force at the calipers for a given squeeze. The higher the number, the more pad force is generated, and conversely the more lever travel there would be. At the low end, brakes will feel firm, wooden and not very grabby. At the high end, there will be a softer lever feel, more travel, and a grabbier brake.

[image: Brake ratio calcs.png]

The numbers given for the 5G and 6G delinked assume that you can now activate all 6 pistons from the lever e.g. with a bridging hose or bored through caliper.

There's more to it than just this, the pivot point/arm length geometry of the lever over the master piston, the disc diameter, and the wheel rolling circumference all play their part. I can confirm that a 330kg ST1100 with the stock brake set up (=wooden, weak) is more exciting to panic stop than a 200kg VTR1000F running CBR954 brakes.The same ST1100 is less exciting with a smaller master (= bigger ratio) and some EBC HH pads, but still demands some respect...

And the project begins--just bought a set of nice CBR600RR calipers, and made an offer on a set of F4i forks.


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Thanks Terry - that is a table I've long thought would be of great value, and so it is. The various force ratios present some unexpected results, but your methodology is sound.

Speaking briefly of things that fend, does anybody have experience with the front fender extender products? How are they at reducing grime accumulation and road debris impact on lower cowls, front exhaust primaries, front cylinders, etc?

7 hours ago, MaxSwell

Nope. Quick search finds nothing on utube

My bad - it's a moose. I heard it on XM radio, so I thought it was an audio bit, plus all the discussion about deer activated my fixation complex. Hitting a deer while riding a VFR sucks only slightly less than hitting a moose...

Speaking from the perspective of an experienced twisty mountain rider with zero fabrication ability, I chose the following (for my 6th gen ABS):

1) Traxxion AK20 cartridges with Penske triple clicker because I wanted to maintain the VFR look with the benefits of some upgraded technology but without having to fabricate anything that added to the level of complexity.  These are pricey but able to dial in the balance of performance and comfort which I desired.  As a fellow medical professional, the cost of hospital bills far outweigh saving even a few hundred dollars on suspension.  It has paid for itself if it keeps me off the ground just once.  I don't think you can go wrong with any of the kits made by Traxxion, Daugherty, Cogent or any others.  FWIW, Daugherty seems to be the best for meeting a low price point.  There is certainly a black magic to suspension that requires a lifetime of dedication and expensive tools, and I would rather stand on the shoulders of giants for my baseline setup than try to cook up something, myself, just to save a few bucks or find some mythical level of performance and comfort that will be achieved to 90-95% of "perfection" even with extensive fine tuning that can only be done by the rider with knowledge of how adjustable parts work.  Sportrider has a fantastic article on fine tuning suspension that is worth memorizing.

2) Spiegler / LSL SS kit with EBC HH pads because I wanted a more upright riding position to limit the effects of being old and out of shape on a day of sport touring.  The brakes have much better feel which allows me to utilize the skill I have improved over the years and are more than enough to activate the ABS in dry conditions.

3) Don't forget tires, which are arguably the most important link to the road and make all of the above relatively pointless if the tire doesn't stick to the pavement.  I will forgo this discussion for obvious reasons.
 

All this being said, we reach a performance barrier the VFR simply cannot cross due to the laws of physics without infringing on ever important safety margins.  As mentioned, there are multiple options for modification, but I don't think any will allow me to run the Dragon faster than the local I chased on an R3 with only custom pegs and upgraded tires without infringing on safety margins (I rarely drag knee while touring).  A KTM supermoto will assuredly pass us all sipping a latte and this margin is even greater while riding roads that make the Dragon look straight.  Speaking from experience of another local on the Dragon and a member of this forum, going faster only ends one way and it isn't any more fun after a point. 

I know I am preaching to the choir on this forum, but without a doubt the best way to improve speed and safety margin is to become a better rider, through education and experience, along with the above mods.  If you haven't already, spend some time at California Superbike school or equivalent.  While riding their track-prepped S1000RR, you will become closely acquainted with the law of diminishing returns when you swing your leg over any VFR.  Nonetheless, I still ride one because speed isn't everything. 

I hope I didn't go too far off topic and you find your balance of cost and performance for your needs.

Very well said.007,  and agree to a point.  My thing is being one, I'd like to believe I know what I'm doing and my limits. Could I do better on another bike? Probably. But the VFR is such a great platform,  so close to being perfect in My Opinion, and for the money,  the VFR is a huge bargain, most don't know about.  Yes the wide open public roads that have a twist here and there is what it is all about , but in that comes a self awareness and control thing,  best have your a game on and your wits.. Couldn't agree more on getting ones selve to be better by taking a riding coarse at the track. From that you can start taking advantage and appreciate of all the up grades done to the VFR.  

007 Speaking from the perspective of an experienced twisty mountain rider with zero fabrication ability, I chose the following (for my 6th gen ABS):
 
1) Traxxion AK20 cartridges with Penske triple clicker because I wanted to maintain the VFR look with the benefits of some upgraded technology but without having to fabricate anything that added to the level of complexity.  These are pricey but able to dial in the balance of performance and comfort which I desired.  As a fellow medical professional, the cost of hospital bills far outweigh saving even a few hundred dollars on suspension.  It has paid for itself if it keeps me off the ground just once.  I don't think you can go wrong with any of the kits made by Traxxion, Daugherty, Cogent or any others.  FWIW, Daugherty seems to be the best for meeting a low price point.  There is certainly a black magic to suspension that requires a lifetime of dedication and expensive tools, and I would rather stand on the shoulders of giants for my baseline setup than try to cook up something, myself, just to save a few bucks or find some mythical level of performance and comfort that will be achieved to 90-95% of "perfection" even with extensive fine tuning that can only be done by the rider with knowledge of how adjustable parts work.  Sportrider has a fantastic article on fine tuning suspension that is worth memorizing.
 
2) Spiegler / LSL SS kit with EBC HH pads because I wanted a more upright riding position to limit the effects of being old and out of shape on a day of sport touring.  The brakes have much better feel which allows me to utilize the skill I have improved over the years and are more than enough to activate the ABS in dry conditions.
 
3) Don't forget tires, which are arguably the most important link to the road and make all of the above relatively pointless if the tire doesn't stick to the pavement.  I will forgo this discussion for obvious reasons.
 
All this being said, we reach a performance barrier the VFR simply cannot cross due to the laws of physics without infringing on ever important safety margins.  As mentioned, there are multiple options for modification, but I don't think any will allow me to run the Dragon faster than the local I chased on an R3 with only custom pegs and upgraded tires without infringing on safety margins (I rarely drag knee while touring).  A KTM supermoto will assuredly pass us all sipping a latte and this margin is even greater while riding roads that make the Dragon look straight.  Speaking from experience of another local on the Dragon and a member of this forum, going faster only ends one way and it isn't any more fun after a point. 
 
I know I am preaching to the choir on this forum, but without a doubt the best way to improve speed and safety margin is to become a better rider, through education and experience, along with the above mods.  If you haven't already, spend some time at California Superbike school or equivalent.  While riding their track-prepped S1000RR, you will become closely acquainted with the law of diminishing returns when you swing your leg over any VFR.  Nonetheless, I still ride one because speed isn't everything. 
 
I hope I didn't go too far off topic and you find your balance of cost and performance for your needs.
 
 

MsRN98, 5/21/2017 at 0:59 AM

I feel a plan coming together, with CBR600 F4i forks, 6th-Gen clamps and bars (I assume these run essentially the same geometry as the 5th-Gen?). Not sure if I can easily run 600RR brakes; if not, F4i brakes/MC will do. I Iike the idea of the CBR250R rear MC and double banjo bolt to the stock caliper. That leaves sourcing new brake lines and a way of mounting the front fender, and eventually the rear shock.


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This is what I did.  I have F4i forks, 6th Gen triple clamps, de-linked and repurposed the SS brake lines that came on my used bike.  I had to buy an F4i front fender -- repainted to match.  I also re-shimmed the fork internals (F4i) to a stack similar to one used by a dude on one of the SanFrancisco bike forums.  I have an Ohlins out back so I'm good there.  I have the F4i Front and Rear MC for braking duties and just re-used my front wheel.  I shimmed the calipers to center them on the rotors, but they even work OK without shimming.  It is probably the most straight forward way to get 43mm forks on the front end of a 5th Gen.  The only thing I might do differently is drop in Traxxion AK-20's in the front forks...

Matt

16 hours ago, MsRN98

There's nothing dumber than a deer in rut. Even a man in rut has something going on upstairs.


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Well most of us anyway.

MaxSwell Well most of us anyway.

4 hours ago, zupatun

This is what I did.  I have F4i forks, 6th Gen triple clamps, de-linked and repurposed the SS brake lines that came on my used bike.  I had to buy an F4i front fender -- repainted to match.  I also re-shimmed the fork internals (F4i) to a stack similar to one used by a dude on one of the SanFrancisco bike forums.  I have an Ohlins out back so I'm good there.  I have the F4i Front and Rear MC for braking duties and just re-used my front wheel.  I shimmed the calipers to center them on the rotors, but they even work OK without shimming.  It is probably the most straight forward way to get 43mm forks on the front end of a 5th Gen.  The only thing I might do differently is drop in Traxxion AK-20's in the front forks...

Matt

Matt - which front and rear calipers did you end up using on your final delink?

Terry 600F4i fender on 600F4i forks??? That will fit just like Mr Honda intended. The fork leg spacing side to side on the 600F4i is exactly the same as the 6G.   I actually have 600F4i fender fitted right now (not needed, just more random eBay shopping when bored...).

Also, 600RR MC arrived today. Waiting on 600RR calipers and 250RR rear MC. That leaves 6G triple, clip-ons, lines, fender and new brake lever (ASV). Getting excited!

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The bearings on nearly all Hondas are interchangeable, so that won't be an issue. Not so sure about the offset of the 600 forks compared to that of the 5G/6G, maybe suck it and see?

Terry The bearings on nearly all Hondas are interchangeable, so that won't be an issue. Not so sure about the offset of the 600 forks compared to that of the 5G/6G, maybe suck it and see?

I did a little bit of window shopping on EBay--looks like there's a good 1.5-2 cm of additional offset on the VFR versus the CBR. Good eye, Terry!

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In truth I cheated and used a calculator on Tony Foale's website which will calculate the offset given some nominal rake, trail and tyre radius numbers. The 600 is significantly different, but the 5G and 6G are nearly the same.

Got out and had a good blast on my toy today, truly an amazing handler and much better than me; as it should be.

Glad to hear people are out and riding their VFRs Terry.

MsRN98, go sixth gen top and bottom triples. Even good ones are inexpensive, and them you don't have to worry about matching top and bottom or doing any of that highfalutin' math to get the geometry correct. Where did you find straight F4i forks with only 2000 miles on them? [Great find]

If you get 6G triples you may find that the steering lock bolt won't mate with the sockets on the headstock; for whatever reason the 5G ignition in the 6G triples sits too high and will need a few washers inserted to move the lock down a little. 

sfdownhill Glad to hear people are out and riding their VFRs Terry.
 
MsRN98, go sixth gen top and bottom triples. Even good ones are inexpensive, and them you don't have to worry about matching top and bottom or doing any of that highfalutin' math to get the geometry correct. Where did you find straight F4i forks with only 2000 miles on them? [Great find]

Terry If you get 6G triples you may find that the steering lock bolt won't mate with the sockets on the headstock; for whatever reason the 5G ignition in the 6G triples sits too high and will need a few washers inserted to move the lock down a little. 

Question--does anyone have a pair of original 6th-Gen clip-ons they'd care to part with?


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sfdownhill, 5/22/2017 at 6:54 PM

Matt - which front and rear calipers did you end up using on your final delink?

F4i ones on the front and the stock caliper on the rear.  I used F4i master on front and rear...

It's Looking good here.  

Terry, 5/26/2017 at 11:34 PM

The bearings on nearly all Hondas are interchangeable, so that won't be an issue. Not so sure about the offset of the 600 forks compared to that of the 5G/6G, maybe suck it and see?

I think the F4i offset is 32.5mm vs. 40mm on the 5th/6th gens.  Not ideal, but could be worse.

Ciao,