Rhythmic Vibration

I hope someone has some clue why this is happening. Recently I have noticed at speeds over 85 to 90 miles per hour there is a rhythmic vibration coming through the handlebars. It is predictable and repeatable and happens constantly over a certain speed. You can actually see the mirrors vibrating as this occurs -there will be a strong vibration for a second or 2 followed by an equally long smooth period. Any thoughts?

Possibly a tire balance or out of round issue.

My 6th gen had a similar issue though also just shaked over 80 mph. Mine turned out to be front wheel alignment. Once aligned slowly went away as tire was by then worn by issue. Put a new tire on and no more shake or rhythmic vibration.  

thepretender My 6th gen had a similar issue though also just shaked over 80 mph. Mine turned out to be front wheel alignment. Once aligned slowly went away as tire was by then worn by issue. Put a new tire on and no more shake or rhythmic vibration.  

I've seen a situation where after installation of a new tire the chain was slightly overtightened.  This caused a vibration similar to what you're describing.

After the alinement didn't seem to work then as the tire wore it got better and better. I then put a brand new tire on and problem was solved. IF this is your problem you may not have ruined your tire yet. I'm no expert so no promises this is your problem just a possibility.  

2 hours ago, interceptor69

Brand new tire.

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So has it only happened since the new tire? Could well be possible they forgot to balance it! Agree with GreginDenver, have also experienced strange vibrations with a friends bike caused by an over tightened chain.

Aye, check the chain and sprockets

The front tire is new- the rear about ayr old. New sprockets and chain last year. So a too tight chain can cause a front end shudder? There are several weights on the front so it appears balanced. Also it started last year before I put new sprockets and a new chain on last summer.

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1 hour ago, interceptor69

So a too tight chain can cause a front end shudder?

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Too tight chain will moan under the stress... never experience a shudder because the rear sprocket cush drive absorbs any vibrations from migrating to the front...

More info:  the vibration started a year or so ago-so 2 front tires and the same problem.  today took a ride and noticed the vibration occurs even when the clutch is pulled in so not related to the engine.  I have some GoPro video shot of the mirrors at around 90 mpg-I can see it while riding but couldn't tell much looking at the video.  The odd thing is the vibration slowly builds in intensity, peaks, then decreases in intensity and it doesn't seem to change duration even when speed increases or decreases.  I will try to attach the 2 short vids.  I was staring at the mirror on the 2nd vid and wasn't watching the road as closely as I should have....

I'd be checking to see if there was a wheel rim out of round. Can't think of anything else!

"2 front tires and the same problem"! What was the wear pattern like?

Have you done a front wheel alignment? It's simple free and takes just a few minutes. 

7 hours ago, Grum

I'd be checking to see if there was a wheel rim out of round. Can't think of anything else!

"2 front tires and the same problem"! What was the wear pattern like?

the wear pattern was very "A" shaped when worn, but symmetrically worn.

6 hours ago, thepretender

Have you done a front wheel alignment? It's simple free and takes just a few minutes. 

No, never done that-how is that done on a motorcyle?  

1 hour ago, interceptor69

No, never done that-how is that done on a motorcycle?  

Curious to know the technique. Only thing I can think is to loosen the triple clamps to make sure the axle holes are in line as opposed to having the tops dead level. I've been told that is the best way to set up your forks.

duc2v4 did the actual work but it goes like this. Put bike on center stand push down on rear to lift front end (this was the extent of my help lol) loosen one side of the triple tree lower one on 1 side I think he also loosened the mud guard and brake and possibly the the axel. Then compress the front end a few time bounce it aggressively. If there was a problem this will correct it then tighten the triple tree. If I miss anything duc2v4 or someone else can correct me.  

Delboy does a good job of explaining the process as well as providing a video you can watch. The start of the process starts at 4:15.

That was a brilliant video, thanks for posting it.

I rebuilt the entire front end on my 97 this Spring, and by reading and trial and error finally got it right when re-assembled.

But nothing I read was as clear and concise as this was.

+1 ! 

At this junction I'd eliminate the items listed in the VFR shop manual...

[image: TroubleShootingHandling.JPG]

When you say rhythmic vibration, do you mean harmonic vibration ? This is when slightly out of balance parts vibrate in harmony with other parts thus producing a rhythmic pulsing effect, sometimes enhancing the effect & when out of sync suppressing it.

I would check both wheels are balanced correctly, then check your head race bearings, front wheel & rear hub bearings to ensure there is no play there. Also check your front spindle & swingarm spindle/bearings. Check your wheels spin freely at both ends with no brake drag. If you have brake drag then check out your callipers first. Last but not least check your wheel alignment.

Mohawk When you say rhythmic vibration, do you mean harmonic vibration ? This is when slightly out of balance parts vibrate in harmony with other parts thus producing a rhythmic pulsing effect, sometimes enhancing the effect & when out of sync suppressing it.
 
I would check both wheels are balanced correctly, then check your head race bearings, front wheel & rear hub bearings to ensure there is no play there. Also check your front spindle & swingarm spindle/bearings. Check your wheels spin freely at both ends with no brake drag. If you have brake drag then check out your callipers first. Last but not least check your wheel alignment.
 
 

Can’t help with the source but the phenomenon you are encountering is called “beats”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(acoustics)

OK the fact that it comes and goes is harmonics. If the engine is allowed to idle with clutch in rolling at speed & this is still happening then it’s likely the drive chain & sprockets causing the harmonics &/or the wheels. The stock 17/43 gearing means the front sprocket rotates 2.3 times for every one of the rear. Plus as chains wear they create slack areas.

You said this has persisted over tyre changes & before latest chain & sprockets. Then it’s likely to be wheels balance &/or worn bearings combining in a harmonic frequency. Just because tyres are X years/miles old & were balanced when new does not mean they stay that way or the tech that did them did a good job. Check all bearings & then remove both wheels & have them re balanced. While the wheels are off have your head bearings checked & regressed, when were they last done !?

Take your bike and whilst riding around 40 mph in a straight line... let go of the bars. Do they start into a headshake? This is a classic sign of worn out steering head bearings.

Mine were shot before 12k miles (when I bought it). Just had my ZRX experience the symptom from above and sure enough... with the front end off the ground I get some play.

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ScottieDucatiTake your bike and whilst riding around 40 mph in a straight line... let go of the bars. Do they start into a headshake? This is a classic sign of worn out steering head bearings.

Mine were shot before 12k miles (when I bought it). Just had my ZRX experience the symptom from above and dire enough with the front end off the ground I get some play.


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Mohawk OK the fact that it comes and goes is harmonics. If the engine is allowed to idle with clutch in rolling at speed & this is still happening then it’s likely the drive chain & sprockets causing the harmonics &/or the wheels. The stock 17/43 gearing means the front sprocket rotates 2.3 times for every one of the rear. Plus as chains wear they create slack areas.
 
You said this has persisted over tyre changes & before latest chain & sprockets. Then it’s likely to be wheels balance &/or worn bearings combining in a harmonic frequency. Just because tyres are X years/miles old & were balanced when new does not mean they stay that way or the tech that did them did a good job. Check all bearings & then remove both wheels & have them re balanced. While the wheels are off have your head bearings checked & regressed, when were they last done !?
 
 

And I’ll add that head bearings can also result in uneven front tire wear! Sounds like you’ve got an answer.

I went with tapered for my 5th gen as 12k miles seemed an unacceptable interval to me.


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Every one of five fifth gens I've had has needed steering head bearings. My first one developed a vibration at speed that was first diagnosed by my reliable Honda dealer as a cupped front tire; so I replaced it. The vibration remained. They nexted suggested checking the steering head bearings. Put the bike on the centerstand. Raise the front end by pressing down on the rear. (I put a couple of concreat foundation blocks on the pillion seat. Someone pressing down can also accomplish this if you have a helper.) Move to the clipons and slowly move the wheel/forks lock-to-lock. If you can detect a detent in the center of the back and fourth that indicates worn steering head bearings.

That was about 70,000 miles. Subsequent bikes (4) experienced the symptoms, one as low as less than 30,000 miles to as high as 50,000 miles. The reason is Honda used cheap ball bearings in the OEM version. The recommendation iis to use tapered roller bearings. Once installed, never any further issues of this problem. BTW the first bike was KIA by a dear at 105,000 miles. 

MaxSwell Every one of five fifth gens I've had has needed steering head bearings. My first one developed a vibration at speed that was first diagnosed by my reliable Honda dealer as a cupped front tire; so I replaced it. The vibration remained. They nexted suggested checking the steering head bearings. Put the bike on the centerstand. Raise the front end by pressing down on the rear. (I put a couple of concreat foundation blocks on the pillion seat. Someone pressing down can also accomplish this if you have a helper.) Move to the clipons and slowly move the wheel/forks lock-to-lock. If you can detect a detent in the center of the back and fourth that indicates worn steering head bearings.
 
That was about 70,000 miles. Subsequent bikes (4) experienced the symptoms, one as low as less than 30,000 miles to as high as 50,000 miles. The reason is Honda used cheap ball bearings in the OEM version. The recommendation iis to use tapered roller bearings. Once installed, never any further issues of this problem. BTW the first bike was KIA by a dear at 105,000 miles. 

There a bit involved but nothing beyond basic hand tools. Support the front end off the ground, pull off the fender, wheel and forks, undo the steering head nuts and the stem will slide out of the steering head. Next up is removal of the bearing cups in the frame, which requires some careful tapping out with a hammer and pry bar or similar. Reinstallation is the reverse, the new cups can be chilled in your freezer first but the key is carefully and squarely tapping these back in making absolutely sure not to damage the bearing face. Removal of the lower race on the steering stem can be awkward, heat can help as does cutting the bearing through with a dremel (but don' touch that stem!). You can use the old extracted bearings as surfaces to drive the new, if you put a sawcut through them first. Obviously there are proper bearing driver tools that can be used too (I'm too cheap to own these). Setting the bearing tension is best done by feel and the tapered rollers need very little nut torque, too much and the steering become sticky and feels terrible, but I believe they have more tolerance for being a bit loose than a ball bearing without dire consequences. 

I won’t relive that discussion but All Balls recommends the same as OE torque for their tapered bearings. Sounds nuts I know, I’d say safe bet is that’s the upper limit. Biggest thing to do is let the weight of the bike back on the front and help it all settle in before torque. Then with front end off the ground again, check steering lock-to-lock for smooth sweep and shouldn’t have loads of resistance. If it’s a bit sticky (like stuck in molasses feel), back off a tiny bit.

Always good to check the steering feel after some miles too. Often times they’ll settle further and need another quick tighten.


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ScottieDucati, 7/18/2019 at 4:33 AM

Take your bike and whilst riding around 40 mph in a straight line... let go of the bars. Do they start into a headshake? This is a classic sign of worn out steering head bearings.

Negative... letting go of the bars shimmy is not s sign of worn steering head bearings.

technically speaking its  a deceleration shimmy and it's normal...
some bikes may shimmy decelerating through the 45 mph range... keeping
your hands on the bars should arrest most of the front end shimmy...
some bikes shimmy more than others and it's no big deal with your
hands on the bars in the critical speed range... your bike should be
immune at speeds above 45 mph...

Deceleration shimmy is chiefly the product of non OEM or a worn
tires... it ain't the product of steering head bearings... because every

bike has this instability and it is held in check by damping forces

created mainly by the tire's self-correcting tendencies...

STEERING HEAD BEARINGS

If your steering head bearings are too tight the bike will weave and
not seek it own center... if you're steering head bearings are loose
you'll notice a pronounce clunk during braking...

Instead of employing a torque wrench to set bearing I raise the
front wheel off the ground and tighten the steering head bearings
until the bars lock then I back off the nut until the bars free wheel
with a slight drag... with this method you'll find that sweat spot and
avoid over tightening and under tightening even if you upgrade to
tricky to set right taper roller bearings...

Mohawk, 7/10/2019 at 3:05 PM

 Also check your front spindle & swingarm spindle/bearings. Check your wheels spin freely at both ends with no brake drag. If you have brake drag then check out your callipers first. Last but not least check your wheel alignment.

Good advice... I'd remove and clean and grease the rear spindle bearings... if you can't remember the last bearing service you have everything to gain and nothing to loose...

Here are my axle care notes that I send out to my fellow RC30/ RC45 owners...
 

Because the VFR and RC45 employ the same caged needle bearing that
rides directly on on the rear axle I offer my method to clean both the
axle and bearing...

[image: gallery_3131_51_61974.jpg]

Once you have the bearing removed you employ a two jewelers screw
drivers and carefully lift each roller from the cage...
[image: gallery_3131_51_49199.jpg]

Give the rollers and cage a bath in gasoline... you be surprised at
all the dirty deposits hidden in the old grease and every nook and
cranny... you're looking at the deposits after only 10K miles of
normal operation...
[image: gallery_3131_51_47395.jpg]

Once the bearing are really clean lay them out and inspect each roller
for scoring...
[image: gallery_3131_51_41593.jpg]

Dirt mixed with the old grease will leave a trail of deposits on the
axle at point B...
[image: gallery_3131_51_14606.jpg]

Spun in a Lathe... it's easy to remove the deposits employing a gray
micro fine 3M pad... it's soft enough that it does *not* remove any
precious metal...
[image: gallery_3131_51_40032.jpg]

What you'll end up with is an axle with the deposits remove plus
giving the metal a nice luster...

[image: gallery_3131_51_39038.jpg]

Great post on the rear spindle and a lesson I learned the hard way racing my NC30.

I’d contend on the deceleration shimmy but we’ll see how she feels after I replace my bearings (on my ZRX)...Which relatedly or not are visibly due.

[image: 115798270dd8aa2c8d31e23c939df483.jpg&key=72ffc21e5dea86fd0ce4c03fefb911d806f471a0cb5d9fa2fd14f02f97b3b7ae]

I plan to reassemble with new and no other changes and will see if the headshake improves. Could definitely be a worn tire, but an interesting test for posterity... I can then test again with new front tire fitted.

It’ll be a while tho.... 2 kiddos at home and one’s still fairly new!

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MaxSwell, 7/18/2019 at 12:19 PM

. The reason is Honda used cheap ball bearings in the OEM version. 

Every 4 stroke Honda racer namely the RC30 and RC45 and the 185K RC213VS share the
same angular contact or ball steering head bearings p/n 91062-MR7-003
so its false to characterize it as simply a cheap bearing...

$2,941 dollar RC213VS steering stem...

[image: RC213SteerStem.jpg]

1 hour ago, BusyLittleShop

Every 4 stroke Honda racer namely the RC30 and RC45 and the 185K RC213VS share the
same angular contact or ball steering head bearings p/n 91062-MR7-003
so its false to characterize it as simply a cheap bearing...

$2,941 dollar RC213VS steering stem...

[image: RC213SteerStem.jpg]

I agree. 

Tourers and commuters get roller bearings, race bikes and sport bikes get ball bearings. 

Nothing to do with price. 

Everything to do with steering response and feel. 

I stand corrected.

Thanks.

I believe my bike did "the shimmy" when new. I noticed today (over 85 to 90 mph) that when looking down the right fork I can see the axle begin to oscillate anterior <> posteriorly-this oscillation appears to be the cause of the vibration. But why is this happening? ? I do wonder how carefully the Honda shop balances the tires. 

You're close enough... Come by the house. I will computer balance your wheels.

It sounds more like harmonic from worn chain and sprockets.

Chain and both sprockets replaced last summer. 

That means absolutely nothing... 

You could have cleaned the chain with WD40 or Liquid Wrench and detroyed the grease inside the rollers and worn out the chain. It doesn't take long when the grease is bad in a sealed chain.

None of us on the forum know how you take care of your bike. We are just trying to help you pin point your issue.

It sounds like the chain is bad.

As far as we know instead of popping for a good chain, you could be sporting around on a top of the line Bikemaster chain driving your Shinko tires..

gr8vfr That means absolutely nothing... 
You could have cleaned the chain with WD40 or Liquid Wrench and detroyed the grease inside the rollers and worn out the chain. It doesn't take long when the grease is bad in a sealed chain.
None of us on the forum know how you take care of your bike. We are just trying to help you pin point your issue.
It sounds like the chain is bad.
 
As far as we know instead of popping for a good chain, you could be sporting around on a top of the line Bikemaster chain driving your Shinko tires..

Definitely a bit of a twat there. But a cheap chain can be bad or kink fairly quickly.


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This is the kind of douchbagery which makes owning a VFR suck.

When someone tries to give decent advice immediately a bunch of intitled cunts get all offended.

I hope your vibration get worse and the next owner has an easy fix.

F-king Azzholes - I am out of here.

It’s called the internet and tone. I’ve had my fair share of shit tone, just move on man.


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4 hours ago, interceptor69

Wow-snark central.

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Well, gr8vfr did offer his help in person... 

This forum can tend toward thin skins at times, but it bears keeping in mind that everyone here is trying to contribute in their own way. We don't all necessarily agree about all topics, but that is why it is called a forum.

The reality is that even brand new parts can be bad, as can the installation. You said the local Honda shop did all your work... let's just say that is not really a guarantee of workmanship. It seems like you're fishing for an out and out "this is your problem" diagnosis, but there are too many variables in play, that's why the suggestions you're getting are for methodical troubleshooting. I'm going to assume you aren't an experienced mechanic in your own right, but it sounds like you need the help of one, and not someone who is on a dealership's time clock.

I'd like to point out VFRD rules - especially regarding flaming. It seems to me that some owe an apology.

See: https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/guidelines/

gr8vfr, 8/1/2019 at 8:21 PM

You're close enough... Come by the house. I will computer balance your wheels.

It sounds more like harmonic from worn chain and sprockets.

Thanks for your offer but that's a bit far-appx 240 miles. 

Thank everyone for all the good advice and troubleshooting tips-I will just learn to live with it and go about my merry way. I'd there any method for deleting posts?