5th gen "coil on plug" setup.

It never stops, does it? Moving onto my next project. Since I don't feel like modifying the 6th gen airbox, I'm just going to go this route.

Are you sure that's going to work mate? The three pins aren't "an extra ground", the third pin is the trigger. So, for example on the 6th-gen there is a constant 12 volts and ground provided to the coil and the third wire is the trigger. It's basically a simple transistor if I recall correctly; any 12v signal (regardless of strength) trips the transistor, which cuts the normal 12v source and causing collapse of the low voltage field and hence generation of the high voltage spark.

But anyway, are the 5th-gen coils also three wire? If they are, your two-wire coil-on-plug system won't work because the ECU only activates the high voltage coil by sending a trigger command to the coil as opposed to actually cutting the 12 volt signal directly in the ECU.

5th gens are just two wires. Out of all the bike coils I searched on ebay, the 6th gen vfr's were the only 3 prong coils.

rangerscott69

5th gens are just two wires. Out of all the bike coils I searched on ebay, the 6th gen vfr's were the only 3 prong coils.

That, and lots of cars, but yeah. Seems like you've picked a winner then!

Ya, these Denso's (without flap seals) are used on just about anything. The ones on my ER-6N look exactly like the ones used on other kawa bikes and gsxr 1000's. I was google imaging them and a lot of four banger import engines use them too. All look the exact same.

These new model gsxr's have the slick looking metal mid sections. It's bling you can't see. LOL

rangerscott69Ya, these Denso's (without flap seals) are used on just about anything.

Trust Honda to be "different" as always. Like everyone else using wideband O2 sensors now, except Honda.

Donor harness.

Modified connectors

Test start

Awesome mate! So is that now running with the 6th-gen throttle body and injectors as well?

Hey, right on!

Why not just use the CBR1000 stick coils then if they are 2 wire coils?

Were the Suzuki ones just cheaper on Fleabay?

Look at these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Denso-Pencil-Coil-Connector-Set-CBR-GSXR-Hayabusa-/280641084845?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4157831dad

I got em for $9.......so yea. LOL

kaldek

Awesome mate! So is that now running with the 6th-gen throttle body and injectors as well?

Yes. Just need to set the starter valves now.

What is the added advantage of moving to these coils ?

AnikMankar

What is the added advantage of moving to these coils ?

Coil on plug gives a higher voltage and better spark. However, the 5th-gen already had dedicated coils at least, so the difference isn't huge.

Cool! I know some of the RC51 guys have done this with the CBR stick coils. Nice work getting them at $9. :beer:

That is what I assumed. Those plug wires look short and sure to be exposed at the front side. Enure you use some silicon joint to water proof them

rangerscott69

kaldek

Awesome mate! So is that now running with the 6th-gen throttle body and injectors as well?

Yes. Just need to set the starter valves now.

Great job with this! And the videos are top notch also!

Mark

If someone with 6th gen coil on plugs could give me their Ohm (resistance) reading on theirs, I'd appreciate it.

rangerscott69

If someone with 6th gen coil on plugs could give me their Ohm (resistance) reading on theirs, I'd appreciate it.

Across which pins?

kaldek

rangerscott69

If someone with 6th gen coil on plugs could give me their Ohm (resistance) reading on theirs, I'd appreciate it.

Across which pins?

Beats me. The fsm doesnt state anything on ohms with the coils. On two prongs i just touch the two. No clue on the 3 prongs the 6th gens have.

Im getting around 3.1 ohms on the 5th gens and 1.6 ohms on the gsxr's.

rangerscott69

kaldek

rangerscott69

If someone with 6th gen coil on plugs could give me their Ohm (resistance) reading on theirs, I'd appreciate it.

Across which pins?

Beats me. The fsm doesnt state anything on ohms with the coils. On two prongs i just touch the two. No clue on the 3 prongs the 6th gens have.

Im getting around 3.1 ohms on the 5th gens and 1.6 ohms on the gsxr's.

Less resistance = more current. Are you concerned that the new coils are drawing more current than your ECU can provide?

She seems sluggish now at low rpms and taking off. I'm going to hook up the stockers tomorrow and see if it's the bike or just me. It would be nice to find some that are the same resistance just for the assurance. If you can test yours, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm going to test the ones on my '09 ER-6N and see what those are at. I'm gonna guess that these coil on plugs are gonna be lower than the old school styles.

rangerscott69

She seems sluggish now at low rpms and taking off. I'm going to hook up the stockers tomorrow and see if it's the bike or just me. It would be nice to find some that are the same resistance just for the assurance. If you can test yours, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm going to test the ones on my '09 ER-6N and see what those are at. I'm gonna guess that these coil on plugs are gonna be lower than the old school styles.

Verrry interesting. I'll check mine tonight but since they're 3-wire coils the results may not be comparable.

It could be that these new coils are pulling so much current from the ECU that it is suffering a brownout. Your old coils pulled 3.7 amps each (since they are 3.2 ohms at 12 volts), the new ones pulls 7 amps each. Granted, these are "pulse" figures but that's a doubling of current.

I've heard of people using ballast resistors to increase the resistance but then that might affect the spark, because each coil WANTS that 7 amps. More Googling required, methinks.

Have a look at this thread and let me know if anything rings a bell:

http://www.zxrworld.co.uk/zxr400oc/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7367&sid=14a3ead772aa3156a8009ba73cb59548

[image: Coilwiring.jpg]

Or this one:

http://www.rrzone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5894

Have a look at this thread and let me know if anything rings a bell:

http://www.zxrworld....8009ba73cb59548



[image: Posted Image]

I'll bust out the gsxr wiring schematics and see if they're running parallel or not. I've looked at the fische and it doesnt seem to have a separate wire harness for just the coils. Seems to be wired straight into the main harness.

The 6th gens seem to have the green wires tied together and the Bl/W wires. The different colored wires (positives) are all separate.

rangerscott69

I know but they might have different dwell times as you stated.

The dwell time is controlled by the ECU, it basically grounds the coil for a certain amount of time. The lower resistance coils, like the CBR coils, require less dwell than the higher resistance coil. I believe this is where the problems arise. If you have too much dwell with a low resistance coil, you could eventually damage it or the CDI/TCI/ECU. If you ran a high resistance coil with a short dwell, then you won't charge the coil long enough to get a powerful spark.

Wow. I was trying to do some peak voltage tests using my oscilloscope and just couldn't get a reading lower than 268 volts when it should apparently be 100 volts. I'm thinking WTF, but then I find out that my oscilloscope is more sensitive than the equipment generally used for peak voltage testing. So, why am I getting such a weird result?

Apparently, when the secondary coil magnetic field collapses, it generates a "high voltage flyback" pulse into the primary coil that lasts not longer than ten microseconds (not milliseconds - MICRO seconds). At the 1 million samples-per-second rate of my oscilloscope, I'm way faster than your average peak voltage detector at 1 million samples per second but I've seen evidence it loses the plot after about 150,000 and starts to alias the signal. That explains why I don't see the true peak which is somewhere around 400 volts. I'm seeing 268 volts, and a peak voltage tester would only see 100 volts because it can't sample fast enough to see the initial burst at all, instead measuring a peak of 100 volts because that's all it can see at its level of accuracy.

Check out how fast this pulse is:

[image: 3acb9f24642.gif]

You can see where that pulse narrows is where my oscilloscope loses its marbles and can't see that tiny 400 volt sliver. This graph was taken by a professional grade peak voltage tester somewhere above 20 million samples per second. Dayum!

100V is the minimum. The GSXR manual says: 80V and more. I'm wondering if these coils might not be strong enough? I would think so. Would you need a stronger spark with an low compression or high compression engine?

rangerscott69

100V is the minimum. The GSXR manual says: 80V and more. I'm wondering if these coils might not be strong enough? I would think so. Would you need a stronger spark with an low compression or high compression engine?

Stronger, if I recall correctly. Something to do with high compression making it harder to ignite the mixture.

I don't think your coils are a problem at all. The more I look into this, the more it seems to confirm that the problem is just going to turn out to be an incompatibility between the 5th-gen ECU and the newer coils due to the required dwell time.

It would be interesting to see what the spec is on the 6th gen coils. I have a feeling they have built in ignitors judging by the extra wire.

kostritzer

It would be interesting to see what the spec is on the 6th gen coils. I have a feeling they have built in ignitors judging by the extra wire.

They do! They're one of very few 3-wire coils that seem to be out there in use on bikes. Not sure what the VFR1200 uses.

I just realized, that I may actually have a set of CBR600F4i sticks in the bottom of my magical bin of wiring harnesses and electrical supplies... I'll dig around in there when I get home. If I find them, I'll measure the resistance and post up!

Got some riding vids. Their shakey since all I have is RAM mounts.

She road better today. Felt pretty much normal with the coil sticks.

Keep us posted on how things go.

Did you get the throttle bodies sync'd?

SEBSPEED

I just realized, that I may actually have a set of CBR600F4i sticks in the bottom of my magical bin of wiring harnesses and electrical supplies... I'll dig around in there when I get home. If I find them, I'll measure the resistance and post up!

Interested...... :lurk:

Sync'r up and put her on the dyno!

The best was on my way home. I was stopped at an intersection then took off slow when the light turned green. I held the throttle steady but fumbled and the rpms dropped some. I romped on the throttle and my rear just spun threw the intersection until I let off the throttle. These are rare occasions and I get gitty when they happen. The great thing is the rear never fish tails.

There's not a dyno even close to me so I use the "feel" dyno.

rangerscott69

She rode better today. Felt pretty much normal with the coil sticks.

I suppose this means the Viffer has a closed loop ignition dwell system then. Keep us posted.

Well, I'm running Raid 0 on my desktop and I think one of my harddrives just took a dump so my time is going to be switched. Yea! Happy birthday to me.

rangerscott69

Well, I'm running Raid 0 on my desktop and I think one of my harddrives just took a dump so my time is going to be switched. Yea! Happy birthday to me.

You didn't RAID-0 your OS drive did you? Naughty!!

Sorry to hear about your HD, but do let us know of your ECU takes a dump too with the new coils.

Hey rangerscott, what are the chances of finding someone in your area that could do a current test using a low amp current probe and an oscilloscope on your primary coil wires?

If you could run that test, we could confirm if the coils are being saturated or if they're working OK. 7 amps of current with a nice clean "ramp" on the waveform is what we'd be looking for.

kaldek

rangerscott69

She rode better today. Felt pretty much normal with the coil sticks.

I suppose this means the Viffer has a closed loop ignition dwell system then. Keep us posted.

Which would mean that 2 wire 1.6 ohm sticks will work fine? :unsure:

SEBSPEED

kaldek

I suppose this means the Viffer has a closed loop ignition dwell system then. Keep us posted.

Which would mean that 2 wire 1.6 ohm sticks will work fine? :unsure:

Yeah, it should mean that, if I'm anywhere near right. Which, I'm also :unsure: about. We either wait to see what happens with ranger's bike after a few weeks, or he manages to hook up a current clamp to one of the coils with an oscilloscope and we look for a good or bad waveform. All the material I can find points to a reading of 7 amps with a good waveform meaning it's all A-OK.

kaldek

Hey rangerscott, what are the chances of finding someone in your area that could do a current test using a low amp current probe and an oscilloscope on your primary coil wires?

If you could run that test, we could confirm if the coils are being saturated or if they're working OK. 7 amps of current with a nice clean "ramp" on the waveform is what we'd be looking for.

Ehhhh.......not sure. What type of business would most likely be using them?

rangerscott69

kaldek

Hey rangerscott, what are the chances of finding someone in your area that could do a current test using a low amp current probe and an oscilloscope on your primary coil wires?

If you could run that test, we could confirm if the coils are being saturated or if they're working OK. 7 amps of current with a nice clean "ramp" on the waveform is what we'd be looking for.

Ehhhh.......not sure. What type of business would most likely be using them?

Your best bet is a good automotive diagnostic shop. We have a Bosch MTS 5200 lab scope at the shop where I work, complete with a low current clamp, and a bunch of other interesting test adapters(even a pressure transducer for testing running engine compression!). There has to be someone in your area that does a lot of automotive driveability and electrical diagnostics.

Well, did it blow up yet? Enquiring minds want to know! :comp13:

Veefer800Canuck

Well, did it blow up yet? Enquiring minds want to know! :comp13:

:+1:

Just a thought here, mostly directed to rangerscott69

Did you change the spark plug gap at all?

the lower resistance in the primary winding of the COP will increase the potential high voltage in the secondary coil.

If you don't open up the spark plug gap, your going to get a long yellowish buzzing spark, which you don't want.

You want to open up that gap a few thousands (I'd try steps of .002"), to get that spark back to a nice bright blue white arc that "snaps".

I see it all the time with the younger guys in my car clubs.

The get new heavy duty COP's with low resistance primary windings and then complain that their rides are sluggish.

The ford/lincoln guys particularly seem to suffer from this as OEM ford COP's are crap.

No because I believe the gsxr uses the same gapping. I'll double check once I get back into town.

rangerscott69

No because I believe the gsxr uses the same gapping. I'll double check once I get back into town.

Never mind what the GSXR uses for a plug gap!!

IF you test one of these COP's connected to the VFR, what does the spark look like??

Is it bright blue white with a vicious snap?

JES_VFR

Never mind what the GSXR uses for a plug gap!!

IF you test one of these COP's connected to the VFR, what does the spark look like??

Is it bright blue white with a vicious snap?

Hang on. What you're saying means that you know that over-charging the primary coil results in a higher voltage in the secondary winding. Which also means that we're assuming that over-charging the coil is cool.

Shouldn't we focus on confirming that's fine first, and then worry about the spark gap adjustment to compensate for the higher voltage?

kaldek

JES_VFR

Never mind what the GSXR uses for a plug gap!!

IF you test one of these COP's connected to the VFR, what does the spark look like??

Is it bright blue white with a vicious snap?

Hang on. What you're saying means that you know that over-charging the primary coil results in a higher voltage in the secondary winding. Which also means that we're assuming that over-charging the coil is cool.

Shouldn't we focus on confirming that's fine first, and then worry about the spark gap adjustment to compensate for the higher voltage?

I wasn't suggesting overcharging the primary. I thought that Scott had already checked the peak primary voltage and current.

Yes lets make sure that the primary is operating at the correct current. Then look at the spark gap to peak the secondary windings output.

If I've jumped ahead, sorry my bad...

My point was that Scott has changed the coil, so he has to look at what he has on the VFR, not what the coil is supposed to work with on the GSXR.

JES_VFR

I thought that Scott had already checked the peak primary voltage and current.

Not yet - me and Kostritzer were giving suggestions on how to go about it locally. I mean, heck I've got an oscilloscope and low amp current probe but I'm a bit far away. :)

kaldek

JES_VFR

I thought that Scott had already checked the peak primary voltage and current.

Not yet - me and Kostritzer were giving suggestions on how to go about it locally. I mean, heck I've got an oscilloscope and low amp current probe but I'm a bit far away. :)

Oh yeah, you mentioned a small inexpensive oscilloscope didn't you.

Can you shoot me a PM with the brand and if possible a link of a vendor to purchase it from?

The shop ones I keep seeing are way beyond the tool budget for now.

JES_VFR

kaldek

JES_VFR

I thought that Scott had already checked the peak primary voltage and current.

Not yet - me and Kostritzer were giving suggestions on how to go about it locally. I mean, heck I've got an oscilloscope and low amp current probe but I'm a bit far away. :)

Oh yeah, you mentioned a small inexpensive oscilloscope didn't you.

Can you shoot me a PM with the brand and if possible a link of a vendor to purchase it from?

The shop ones I keep seeing are way beyond the tool budget for now.

DSO Nano on eBay.

Most of these are clone hardware - no big deal - but there is also a newer Nano V2 and also a DSO Quad which has four channels! All of them are limited to about 1-2mhz, mine realistically tops out at about 150khz before it starts to alias badly. Plenty good enough for auto electrical work though.

Hey guys. Sorry no updates. Im about to pass out from work and the heat. I wejt out of town last weekend to see family. We went pawn shopping and wouldnt you know. One place had a snap-on osci scope. Looked like a 60's tv on a roller stand. LOL. They wanted $600 for it.

[image: 2011-07-30_12-51-33_234.jpg]

[image: 2011-07-30_12-51-40_634.jpg]

[image: 2011-07-30_12-51-46_720.jpg]

I think itll play pong.

kaldek

JES_VFR

kaldek

JES_VFR

I thought that Scott had already checked the peak primary voltage and current.

Not yet - me and Kostritzer were giving suggestions on how to go about it locally. I mean, heck I've got an oscilloscope and low amp current probe but I'm a bit far away. :)

Oh yeah, you mentioned a small inexpensive oscilloscope didn't you.

Can you shoot me a PM with the brand and if possible a link of a vendor to purchase it from?

The shop ones I keep seeing are way beyond the tool budget for now.

DSO Nano on eBay.

Most of these are clone hardware - no big deal - but there is also a newer Nano V2 and also a DSO Quad which has four channels! All of them are limited to about 1-2mhz, mine realistically tops out at about 150khz before it starts to alias badly. Plenty good enough for auto electrical work though.

I saw those. It looks like they got cbeapy mp3 players and hot wired them and reprogrammed them. LOL

Im thinking about getting the cool quad one. Just need you to sell this to me because I dont know what else I would use it for.

rangerscott69

Im thinking about getting the cool quad one. Just need you to sell this to me because I dont know what else I would use it for.

That's why you buy the cheap single channel one. If you;'re not going to use it again don't spend more than $60.

So has there been a consensus as to whether or not CBR1000 coils are essentially plug and play?

-Jake

Waiting with baited breath to see if RangerScott has finally determined if the stick coils will play nicely with the 5th gen ECU........

I am always hungry for new education, and rarely say no to a mod with something to show for...

I feel pretty educated by this thread, but i just dont see why i should even consider doing this to my train-wrecked vfr still lying dormant in the barn, or the super-charged one standing on its own two wheels?

Is this what we call a healty persuit of undiscovered HP, or just the first signs of un- treatable boredom?

Please educate me further :)

WackenSS

Is this what we call a healty persuit of undiscovered HP, or just the first signs of un- treatable boredom?

Please educate me further :)

Hey man, everybody loves farkles. In ranger's case (and mine) though, I think we're at serious risk of contracting O.F.

OVER FARKLING.

I made a purchase on ebay for an item and they are gonna cancel the order. I should be getting a $50 coupon. So....if I do I might order the oriscope thingy. I still need to replace my vehicles clutch so we'll see.

bump

Veefer800Canuck

bump

Seconded.

What are the differences between the RC-51 stock coils and the VFR coils? Both utilize the same cannister type coil set-up, although I'm not sure what the voltage difference would be. If anything, I think that the RC would require a hotter spark because of the bigger piston/gas volume/displacement, but again, I'm not 100% sure of any of this, it's merely speculation on my part...

douglasthecook

What are the differences between the RC-51 stock coils and the VFR coils? Both utilize the same cannister type coil set-up, although I'm not sure what the voltage difference would be. If anything, I think that the RC would require a hotter spark because of the bigger piston/gas volume/displacement, but again, I'm not 100% sure of any of this, it's merely speculation on my part...

I was thinking the same thing. "Might" be a hotter spark. I know there are dirtbike guys that'll run a coil off a different bike to get a hotter spark. The only way to know for sure is to get both and put your tongue on them and see which one knocks you out longer.

Does the 5th gen run Irids, I thought Irids were spec'd in applications that use less voltage to fire the plug? maybe that has an effect with resistances used in the coils?

rangerscott69

The only way to know for sure is to get both and put your tongue on them and see which one knocks you out longer.

Well, it works with 9V batteries. :ohmy:

I would also like to do this mod if there is some more info regarding the resistance of the coils Vs the stockers, and how that may or may not affect the ECU.

Sure don`t want to fry the ECU some number of miles down the road.

FinnRC36

The Phantom

kostritzer

The Phantom

^ Well on a 750 you can lift one cam on each bank, rotate it laterally and reinstall it. That way each bank fires at the same time so you could in effect have both cylinders in each bank at TDC simultaneously.

The bike will run just fine like this, it's been done before.

I don't see how this would work on any of the 180 degree motors as one piston will always be at BDC when the other is at TDC per bank. I could see how it would work on a 360 degree motor though.

When you 'twin-twingle' the V4, your pairing changes from across the bank to across the V... so you do in fact get both paired pistons at TDC at the same time. Whether this is relevant to the discussion I'm not sure - I am only about 80% up on the content here so far, but will learn more because I want to run a coil on plug set-up too :)

You really can't have two pistons at TDC at same time with a 90º V4 with a 180º crank no matter how you you turn the cams. The piston position depends solely on the crank and the v-angle. So I can't see how that would work without changing the crank to a 360º or 90º one (which doesn't exist to my knowledge).

You're right, the piston diagonal to the one at TDC would be about midway through its stroke, so no paired cylinders. It would have to have split crank journals allowing it to fire every 90 degrees, or it would have to be a boxer engine.

So how does all this help us 5th genners who want to do the COP mod, but are unsure whether or not our bikes will explode and catch fire, and melt, then die some more?

Veefer800Canuck

So how does all this help us 5th genners who want to do the COP mod, but are unsure whether or not our bikes will explode and catch fire, and melt, then die some more?

Well it tells you that the bike is most likely TCI and that by merely looking at your wiring diagram you can confirm it. That means that the use of four Coil-On-Plug items of the same resistance as the existing coils will work fine, and a coil of any resistance should work fine if the EFI uses closed loop dwell control (which we haven't confirmed).

kaldek

Veefer800Canuck

So how does all this help us 5th genners who want to do the COP mod, but are unsure whether or not our bikes will explode and catch fire, and melt, then die some more?

Well it tells you that the bike is most likely TCI and that by merely looking at your wiring diagram you can confirm it. That means that the use of four Coil-On-Plug items of the same resistance as the existing coils will work fine, and a coil of any resistance should work fine if the EFI uses closed loop dwell control (which we haven't confirmed).

Exactly. The coils are NOT the same resistance. And I don't wanna toast my ECU. If I already had a spare ECU I'd go for it.

Every Denso 2 pin COP uses the same connector as far as I know.

kostritzer

Every Denso 2 pin COP uses the same connector as far as I know.

Looks like this eBay item confirms this statement:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Denso-Pencil-Coil-Connector-Set-CBR-GSXR-Hayabusa-/280641084845

OK, did an amp check on a spare battery. CBR CoP units draw 7.5amp. Original coils draw 3.9amp. These are COLD figures, the CoP units resistance goes up with Temperature. Your choice, works fine for me ;)

Bike ran fine when I had the cop's installed. Haven't had them installed some time now because I haven't really been able to enjoy my bike. When I'm on her, it's because I've had to go out of town with her and don't like "testing" things while I'm hundreds of miles away from home. Going on a week long trip and when I get back and if I remember (LOL), I'll put them back in.

All my COP's are running perfect. well they feel and run well with no problems.

Road riding all day or/and race/track time all day long. Perfect throttle response!

In the 4th gen motor that is..Using gsxr1000 8th gen COPs and blade connectors, which are all the same fitting connectors...

YAY.. Old coils gone!!!!

kgsmotorcycles

All my COP's are running perfect. well they feel and run well with no problems.

Road riding all day or/and race/track time all day long. Perfect throttle response!

In the 4th gen motor that is..Using gsxr1000 8th gen COPs and blade connectors, which are all the same fitting connectors...

YAY.. Old coils gone!!!!

Well now, that is encouraging!

How many miles/km's so far & how do your spark plugs look?

No idea on mileage as i have removed the speedo. With 2 track days and a few afternoons motoring around the isle of man i guess 2-3 hundred miles?

No idea on spark plugs as i have not yet have a problem with them... might pop one out later in the week to have a peek if you think its worth it.?..

Have moved on to playing more with the handling, as i know my bike is not yet as good as my last 3rd gen build in terms of feedback and handling in the heat of battle.

I guess right now i have to look at the 929 shock conversion i have... questionable at the least. Altho im assured with Ohlins you should be able to dial anything out?... will see....

Because I was running out of things to do......

[image: IMG 1614]

[image: IMG 1613]

[image: IMG 1612]

[image: IMG 1608]

Rear ones were easy, front ones are going to be a little more work. I'll strip the bike for an oilchange later on when I have more time, and do the fronts then.

Which ones did you use Rob?

GSXR 1000

Had to slightly trim the top rubber boots to match the OE Honda bits, and narrow the rubbers at the bottom a tad. Suzuki plug wells must be a couple mm wider.

Starts and runs as normal, as far as I can tell in the garage. Front cylinders are untouched.

Looks good!!!

Finished the front two cylinders tonight, and fired her up. Bike is cold, so throttle response is definetly better once up to temp.

[image: IMG 1755]

http://youtu.be/7pK7SSim00Y

Since fitting the GSXR coils over the winter, I finally got a chance to ride the bike this past week.

Runs like a champ, idles perfect, pulls to redline just like it should. No funny business anywhere.

Nice Testarossa look Veefer! Thanks again for the info... I should dig into this mod next weekend and I'll add on how the CBR1000 sticks work

Did you add all new wiring to the CoPs or did you extend it from the stock coil wires?

I extended from the stock coil wires.

So as to not mix them up, I only did 1 at a time.

I used heat-shrinkable crimp spade connectors, soldered and heat-shrink the splices from the COP harness to my own wiring, and used split-loom on everything.

Sounds (and looks) great!

Thanks to Rangerscott69 for the inspiration!

So ive been reading the whole post. so for the fifth gen vfr. you need COP from any GSXR 600/750/100 and CBR1000 coil wiring harness. what does the wiring diagram look like going into the coild from the original vfr harness?

mdange

just take the two wires from each existing coil, and lengthen them to attach to the COP.

One is + the other is -, so as long as you keep the polarity correct, you're good.

The CBR COP harness needs to be taken apart, and the wires all separated. They are colour coded, and the one with the black stripe is obviously the - one.

I just did mine one at a time, to avoid confusion as to which wire went where.

And, BTW, the COP conversion on my bike worked great all the way from Colorado to North Carolina and back again. Never missed a beat.

I'm working on these for my 4th gen but am having trouble determining what way to wire up the COP's... As far as polarity. Is there a + and a - on the gsxr coils? Maybe I'm blind and I'm missing it...

there is a separate thread for the 4th gen COP mod. let me find it for you.... BRB

here Y'are: http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/70686-4th-gen-coil-on-plug-mod-split-thread/

I bet you could answers my question as I'm using the same coils :)

apexandy

I bet you could answers my question as I'm using the same coils :)

Well I don't have a 4th gen, but the CBR (1000? 600?) coil wiring harness I bought to hook up the coils plugs right into the GSXR COP's, and the wire colours coming out of the CBR plugs have the wire polarity marked on each of them.

I just unravelled the tape holding all 4 of them together, and separated them so I had 4 individual wire pairs with attached plugs.

Wire each to my existing coil wires by extending them as required, and Bob's your uncle.

See the pic, the white plug is stock CBR hardware, and the wires coming out of it are already the correct polarity and have marking on them indicating same. Just attach to your coil wires, making sure they mate to the right wire on your bike and you're golden.

I did only one at a time, just unhooking what was necessary at the time, as opposed to ripping it all off, then trying to figure out which was what. I really can't see it being much different from a 4th gen though.

[image: med_gallery_554_564_303729.jpg]

I had bought something basically identical to this, and just unwrapped it to expose all the individual wires and separate the 4 plugs:

[image: $(KGrHqRHJFME916qNbucBQCg)zfU7!~~60_35.J]

Thanks for your help. Since I'm using brand new weatherpack type denso connectors I can't tell what polarity the coils have. Much Internet searching seems to indicate polarity doesn't necessarily matter with coils... I just want to make sure I don't screw anything up. After seeing some more pictures online it's looks as though the right wire (looking at the back of the connector with the coil pointing down) is the "common" wire that is the same color to all 4 coils (Black with white trace on 4th gen).

I'm gonna go with that :) thanks again!

When I get a chance I could look at one of the rear ones, unplug it and check the wire colours for ya.

Then you'd know for sure if its left or right while looking into the hole.

Maybe Sunday I could pull that off....

It's all good, if you get to it that's cool, but if not I've went ahead and wired them in... they can be changed but I think I'm good :)

By the way... I grew up south of Red Deer but live in the BC Okanagan now, if you're ever out here for a ride let me know and I could try and join you. That is if I get my project finished...

The coils are working perfectly on my 4th gen VFR :) Now if it would stop raining...

As a heads up to those considering this mod on their 4th gen VFR, I posted in the "4th gen coil on plug" thread about the issues I'm having possibly related to using GSXR coils.

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/70686-4th-gen-coil-on-plug-mod-split-thread/page-20

The Denso COP's on any bike should have the same female/male connections so the harness can pretty much come off of any bike with denso COP's.

Mine are still working great, over 11,000km and not one single hiccup on my 5th gen.

Veefer800Canuck

I extended from the stock coil wires.

So as to not mix them up, I only did 1 at a time.

I used heat-shrinkable crimp spade connectors, soldered and heat-shrink the splices from the COP harness to my own wiring, and used split-loom on everything.

Here's my experience with this mod, starts on post 12... Many Thanks to RangerScott and Veefer for the inspiration and information...

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/75807-cop-for-5th-gen-engine/page-2#entry908523

Once again... sorry for refloating a topic long forgotten, but I am starting this way on my 1984 VF1000R.

Can anyone tell me which ones will fit my bike (long or short ones?). So far I have located a set of CBR600F4 (Denso129700-3881) and a set of GSXR 600 (Denso 129700-3440)

From reading the thread, I can conclude the 3440 are shorter than the 3881. I´ve read from a fellow group member that there is a radiator distance issue with the front plugs.

My question is, will the short ones fit the VF1000R?

Cheers.

Carlos

Carlos, best that you continue to direct your inquiries over here:

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/74980-cbr-coil-upgrade/

As this thread is just for the 5th gens, 1998 to 2001 model years.

Thanks.

Except the mileage data, do we have some data telling us that there is some kind of up-side to this?

Hotter spark = lower fuel consumption? (At least in the O2 sensor vfr)

Dyno numbers?

Coolant temp?

Anything?

I want, but I need a reason to actually allow my brain to think that Honda did compromise on the spark side of engineering...

I got nothing for ya except mine are STILL working great!

WackenSS

Except the mileage data, do we have some data telling us that there is some kind of up-side to this?

Hotter spark = lower fuel consumption? (At least in the O2 sensor vfr)

Dyno numbers?

Coolant temp?

Anything?

I want, but I need a reason to actually allow my brain to think that Honda did compromise on the spark side of engineering...

Whether the coil is a half inch away from the plug or 8 inches from the plug makes no difference, there is no performance gain to be realized. Coil on plug does simplify manufacturing and does eliminate HT leads, which rarely fail regardless. One of those mods you do just because you like tinkering, nothing to be gained from it.

If you are doing significant modifications to the bike (AKA track or SF), it saves a ton of space, and 1lb of weight maybe.

I kind ran out of mods to do after supercharger. The rest of the bike is god as is, but still searching you know.

YoshiHNS

If you are doing significant modifications to the bike (AKA track or SF), it saves a ton of space, and 1lb of weight maybe.

A ton of space? Like a few cubic inches in areas where it's completely irrelevant, and no weight savings to speak of

Tamworth

YoshiHNS

If you are doing significant modifications to the bike (AKA track or SF), it saves a ton of space, and 1lb of weight maybe.

A ton of space? Like a few cubic inches in areas where it's completely irrelevant, and no weight savings to speak of

Cleaning up the appearance and creating space to work with is important for streetfighter builds because you don't have body work to hide the clutter; and yes, it saves at least a pound, I forget the exact amount I weighed, not a lot but when trying to lighten a modern track bike there are no big lumps of weight to hack off... it comes off in a lots of small amounts that add up... as Yoshi pointed out.

... and yes, COPs can give a hotter spark. Any time your pushing 60K+ volts through a wire there are voltage losses, longer the wire and higher the temperature the more loss, especially as the wire ages. Is this significant? Depends on the person...

Virtually all modern sport bikes have COPs, don't they?

Rush2112

Tamworth

YoshiHNS

If you are doing significant modifications to the bike (AKA track or SF), it saves a ton of space, and 1lb of weight maybe.

A ton of space? Like a few cubic inches in areas where it's completely irrelevant, and no weight savings to speak of

Cleaning up the appearance and creating space to work with is important for streetfighter builds because you don't have body work to hide the clutter; and yes, it saves at least a pound, I forget the exact amount I weighed, not a lot but when trying to lighten a modern track bike there are no big lumps of weight to hack off... it comes off in a lots of small amounts that add up... as Yoshi pointed out.

... and yes, COPs can give a hotter spark. Any time your pushing 60K+ volts through a wire there are voltage losses, longer the wire and higher the temperature the more loss, especially as the wire ages. Is this significant? Depends on the person...

Virtually all modern sport bikes have COPs, don't they?

Agree with Mr. Yoshi!

But, and this is my opinion, I am quite sure industrial designers have the "can this be improved somehow" genes. They look at one element and see room for improvement. In this case improvement is also an improvement when the Mr. Bossman of -insert your favorite brand here- says, hey, great idea Mr. Designer dude, we saved xxxxx amounts of usd on shipping thanks to your compact, low weight sparkie thingy, AND we now sell more of them as a pure bonus!

I'm NOT saying cop are bad, but I surely did not change many coils before cop came along...

[image: emoji27.png]

2008 CBR1000 COP's and harness, 1.4 lbs lighter, much cleaner, -4 coils hanging all over the bike.

Thanks Rush and Mohawk for the assistance

[image: msg-23210-0-21616400-1419104184.jpg]

WackenSS

Rush2112

Tamworth

YoshiHNS

If you are doing significant modifications to the bike (AKA track or SF), it saves a ton of space, and 1lb of weight maybe.

A ton of space? Like a few cubic inches in areas where it's completely irrelevant, and no weight savings to speak of

Cleaning up the appearance and creating space to work with is important for streetfighter builds because you don't have body work to hide the clutter; and yes, it saves at least a pound, I forget the exact amount I weighed, not a lot but when trying to lighten a modern track bike there are no big lumps of weight to hack off... it comes off in a lots of small amounts that add up... as Yoshi pointed out.

... and yes, COPs can give a hotter spark. Any time your pushing 60K+ volts through a wire there are voltage losses, longer the wire and higher the temperature the more loss, especially as the wire ages. Is this significant? Depends on the person...

Virtually all modern sport bikes have COPs, don't they?

Agree with Mr. Yoshi!

But, and this is my opinion, I am quite sure industrial designers have the "can this be improved somehow" genes. They look at one element and see room for improvement. In this case improvement is also an improvement when the Mr. Bossman of -insert your favorite brand here- says, hey, great idea Mr. Designer dude, we saved xxxxx amounts of usd on shipping thanks to your compact, low weight sparkie thingy, AND we now sell more of them as a pure bonus!

I'm NOT saying cop are bad, but I surely did not change many coils before cop came along...

[image: emoji27.png]

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly! I know lots of engineers... my Dad is one, and they generally are thinking of how to do things better; unfortunately, I've also seen the other side when they don't anticipate the unintended consequences of their changes!

In this case, I think COPs have proven themselves... they are used on modern sportbikes by most brands whether Japanese, British, or German... it's a good idea that has gotten traction across many companies.

I've had a couple of bad coils in my lifetime... probably will have a bad COP too. Just because the conventional coil + sparkplug lead set-up is reliable doesn't mean it can't be improved.

Some folks may have a need to this mod; some will want to do it... for others, it won't have any value to them.

@gig

Looks Great!

I thought it was closer to 1 1/2 lbs lighter... thanks for the confirmation :beer:

When I installed the GSXR COP's on my 5th gen, I had to drop the idle speed as it was slightly higher then before.

All up it took me an hour to do, and has been running great for 20000K's.

Definitly lost around 0.5k in weight up high, and made more space/less clutter.

I think people are way over thinking this, its not rocket scince.

The 5th gen has 4 coils, so it has 4 trigger wires, one wire per COP.

I did it because I wanted to.

Every car and bike now has COP's, because they are better.

Same as DOHC, FI, 4 valve heads.

Welcome th the 21st century.

Tamworth

YoshiHNS

If you are doing significant modifications to the bike (AKA track or SF), it saves a ton of space, and 1lb of weight maybe.

A ton of space? Like a few cubic inches in areas where it's completely irrelevant, and no weight savings to speak of

Some VFRs don't have a few cubic inches of space...

[image: 4166661450_0b615dc813_b.jpg]

That thing running yet Murray?

<poke poke>

Veefer800Canuck

That thing running yet Murray?

<poke poke>

No. I can feel the surprise from here :unsure2:

Things are still happening, however.

[image: 1907463_10153044827547834_36780756927778]

Ooh, Sebby clutch cover and Duck wheel!

Old topic I know, but in discussing the merits or otherwise of CoP vs normal coils, no-one mentioned ignition interference suppression. This is a very big deal and manufacturers put a lot of effort into passing the strict regulations. Resistive plugs were a BIG improvement, but stuffing the coil right on top of the plug has to offer the best improvement of all. I doubt performance or even emissions really has anything to do with it. Ignition suppression is probably the biggest factor, but packaging now plays a very big part in vehicular design. Just trying to cram everything into the available space can be tricky and with bikes they need to be able to place everything for optimum weight distribution. CoPs are simply better at all these.

Whether it's worth doing on an older bike is just down to personal preference. I like the idea of freeing up some space and saving a bit of weight. As long as they work correctly it'll make bugger all difference to the performance though.

gig

2008 CBR1000 COP's and harness, 1.4 lbs lighter, much cleaner, -4 coils hanging all over the bike.

Thanks Rush and Mohawk for the assistance

[image: msg-23210-0-21616400-1419104184.jpg]

Can anyone confirm how the later CBR CoPs fit to a 5th Gen?

I tried VFR1200, but they seemed too short. The CBR1000RR4-7 Cops will fit, but slightly long. The above picture looks perfect, but hard to tell and as far as I can see looking at pictures, the later CBR ones (RR8->) look very like the VFR1200's, but impossible to confirm either way as I don't have any on hand to check. Well I do, but they're on the bike and even without fairings, they're a ba****d to get to.

Anyone have an RR8-> CoP they could measure?

Yes the 2008 fit perfectly if you are happy with the seals on the COP fitting inside the valve covers as apposed to them being capped on top. I think you would need the longer COP if you wanted to additionally cut and fit a capped seal.

gig

Yes the 2008 fit perfectly if you are happy with the seals on the COP fitting inside the valve covers as apposed to them being capped on top. I think you would need the longer COP if you wanted to additionally cut and fit a capped seal.

Ah, thanks for that. Did they fit down inside the head round the plug. The VFR1200 ones I tried were very tight before they had engaged on the plug. Did you have to shave the lower rubber section at all?

On the basis that gig says they fit, I've ordered a set from an RR11 (same as RR8) off eBay. I suspect they're actually the same coil as the VFR1200, but with a different top seal which is not available separately, hence the different part number. I'll confirm that when I receive them,

yes they fit perfectly without trimming seal.

I used mother board standoffs to make the spark plug longer so the COP make a good connection with the spark plug, and an extra o ring to help seal them.

Haven't done a lot of ks with them, but I have done a trackday with them. Works great.

keef

I used mother board standoffs to make the spark plug longer so the COP make a good connection with the spark plug, and an extra o ring to help seal them.

Haven't done a lot of ks with them, but I have done a trackday with them. Works great.

The problem I see with the standoffs is that it pushes the whole thing away and off the plug. Normally the rubber end of the CoP is a snug fit around the plug and keeping it sealed. With the standoff you won't have that seal and more chance of problems if anything gets past the upper seal.

Not saying you will have problems, but it's something to be aware of.

I have also become aware that some VFRs use plugs with the exposed screw thread at the top and others use a plug with a solid top and any cap or CoP is only going to really fit properly on the plug type for which it was designed. Otherwise it will either not actually clip on or will be loose. Maybe these differences only apply to later VFRs already with CoPs and so fitting CoPs to earlier bikes shouldn't have this problem, but if the plugs have also been changed...

It might be an idea if thinking of doing this, to be sure the top of the plug is compatible with the CoP being installed.

Finally, I think the primary connections ARE polarity conscious. Get it wrong and I cannot but think it will fail to work correctly as the HT from the secondary coil will be trying to find ground through the primary. The negative side (earth) of both primary and secondary coils must be connected together. The secondary coli MUST be connected at both ends or current cannot flow. The high side is to ground via the plug (and the spark), but the low side has to be connected to ground to complete the circuit and without any other possible route, it must use the same ground terminal as the low side of the primary. At least, that's how I see it. If anyone thinks differently, please chime in.

BiKenG

keef

I used mother board standoffs to make the spark plug longer so the COP make a good connection with the spark plug, and an extra o ring to help seal them.

Haven't done a lot of ks with them, but I have done a trackday with them. Works great.

The problem I see with the standoffs is that it pushes the whole thing away and off the plug. Normally the rubber end of the CoP is a snug fit around the plug and keeping it sealed. With the standoff you won't have that seal and more chance of problems if anything gets past the upper seal.

Not saying you will have problems, but it's something to be aware of.

I have also become aware that some VFRs use plugs with the exposed screw thread at the top and others use a plug with a solid top and any cap or CoP is only going to really fit properly on the plug type for which it was designed. Otherwise it will either not actually clip on or will be loose. Maybe these differences only apply to later VFRs already with CoPs and so fitting CoPs to earlier bikes shouldn't have this problem, but if the plugs have also been changed...

It might be an idea if thinking of doing this, to be sure the top of the plug is compatible with the CoP being installed.

Finally, I think the primary connections ARE polarity conscious. Get it wrong and I cannot but think it will fail to work correctly as the HT from the secondary coil will be trying to find ground through the primary. The negative side (earth) of both primary and secondary coils must be connected together. The secondary coli MUST be connected at both ends or current cannot flow. The high side is to ground via the plug (and the spark), but the low side has to be connected to ground to complete the circuit and without any other possible route, it must use the same ground terminal as the low side of the primary. At least, that's how I see it. If anyone thinks differently, please chime in.

If you pick up an '08 CBR1k coil wire harness (~$20 USD on eBay) the wire color coding matches the 5th gen VFR and you can wire it directly into the VFR harness with no issues. I've put thousands of miles on mine with no issues.

The COPs are shorter than the OEM leads, so without a longer spark plug, it doesn't make a proper electrical connection.

With the stand offs on a plug (outside the engine) the COP fits nice and tight, good seal, etc , etc.

With the standoff i do have that seal.

I just used direct replacement plugs, screw thread on top, screwed on the stand offs, and pushed the COP on.

It works.

And like rush said, the 08 harness matches colours and everything. it took me about 30 minutes.

I've installed the GSXR 600 plug packs with CBR wiring and connectors.

Got them both for under AU$50 from eBay 25000km's ago without a problem.

I've ridden in torrential downpours on long trips without a hiccup.

Used the CBR connectors as the wiring is the same colour as the VFR.

This is a great mod that is cheap and easy to do.

You lose a lot of weight and junk from around the air box.

Rush2112

BiKenG

keef

I used mother board standoffs to make the spark plug longer so the COP make a good connection with the spark plug, and an extra o ring to help seal them.

Haven't done a lot of ks with them, but I have done a trackday with them. Works great.

The problem I see with the standoffs is that it pushes the whole thing away and off the plug. Normally the rubber end of the CoP is a snug fit around the plug and keeping it sealed. With the standoff you won't have that seal and more chance of problems if anything gets past the upper seal.

Not saying you will have problems, but it's something to be aware of.

I have also become aware that some VFRs use plugs with the exposed screw thread at the top and others use a plug with a solid top and any cap or CoP is only going to really fit properly on the plug type for which it was designed. Otherwise it will either not actually clip on or will be loose. Maybe these differences only apply to later VFRs already with CoPs and so fitting CoPs to earlier bikes shouldn't have this problem, but if the plugs have also been changed...

It might be an idea if thinking of doing this, to be sure the top of the plug is compatible with the CoP being installed.

Finally, I think the primary connections ARE polarity conscious. Get it wrong and I cannot but think it will fail to work correctly as the HT from the secondary coil will be trying to find ground through the primary. The negative side (earth) of both primary and secondary coils must be connected together. The secondary coli MUST be connected at both ends or current cannot flow. The high side is to ground via the plug (and the spark), but the low side has to be connected to ground to complete the circuit and without any other possible route, it must use the same ground terminal as the low side of the primary. At least, that's how I see it. If anyone thinks differently, please chime in.

If you pick up an '08 CBR1k coil wire harness (~$20 USD on eBay) the wire color coding matches the 5th gen VFR and you can wire it directly into the VFR harness with no issues. I've put thousands of miles on mine with no issues.

PS: the '08 CBR1k COPs have a silver metallic body as opposed to the black plastic ones and they were long enough for the VFR plugs... fits nice and snug in the hole just like Gig said. Slid my bike into a gully and the fan + lights connections got screwed up... COPs, no problem... kept right on sparking away.

Rush2112

If you pick up an '08 CBR1k coil wire harness (~$20 USD on eBay) the wire color coding matches the 5th gen VFR and you can wire it directly into the VFR harness with no issues. I've put thousands of miles on mine with no issues.

Indeed. All the CBR1000RRs use the same wire colours for each cylinder and probably 929 and 954 and maybe even CBR900RR before that. In fact i'd say it's a fair guess that Honda always use the same colours on their 4 cylinder bikes.

As an example of why we tend to moan about prices here in the UK, I just bought a suitable harness - from the US. It was cheaper to buy one from all the way over there AND ship it here AND pay any duties, than I could find one here. Greedy UK breakers want 3 TIMES the price. I made a reasonable offer, but was declined. Their loss.

It is immensely frustrating (not to say costly) to constantly see stuff available in the US for so much less than the UK. We don't call it "rip off Britain" for nothing. BTW, we're allowed to call it that, no-one else is. :laugh:

Rush2112

PS: the '08 CBR1k COPs have a silver metallic body as opposed to the black plastic ones and they were long enough for the VFR plugs... fits nice and snug in the hole just like Gig said. Slid my bike into a gully and the fan + lights connections got screwed up... COPs, no problem... kept right on sparking away.

I've already got some RR11 CoPs on their way to me. Bought from outside the UK of course as it was cheaper.

Another mod my bike will never be done

Got CBR1000rr 2008 coils and loom coming. Will fit next weekend (busy this weekend). 

Two observations:

1. Both VFR and CBR have same spark plug gap of 0.8-0.9mm. Does this suggest COP doesn’t put out stronger spark than our fat green coils? Should we be widening the plug gap to 1mm with COP mod?  

2. Is there a way to run fresh cables and new Denso connector plugs from someplace on the loom? Metri pack waterproof ones are available cheap. I can’t help but feel splicing the CBR connectors onto the existing 19 year old wire is asking for trouble. Failed RR/stator connectors have made me overly cautious. 

3. A lot of the CBR ‘08+ coils on eBay look corroded across their metallic silver jackets. Not sure if this is due to water ingress or high heat (or both). The US ones are less corroded than UK ones, which suggests moisture is the issue. Should we be doing more to waterproof the spark well? Is an outwardly corroded coil likely to fail or is this just a cosmetic problem? Note: earlier CBR coils (and most other bikes too) are covered in black plastic so no corrosion is visible, although there may be some lurking within. 

Thanks to Ranger and all those other members who pioneered this mod - I am very grateful to you all! 

Stray

Keep the gap the same, there is no advantage to a bigger gap. Spark intensity is what you're after. 

Original wiring is fine. There is no load on them wires. 

Corrosion on the metal caps is only cosmetic, water does not get into the plug connection. 

Just make sure the CBR boots seal on the VFR cover. 

I used GSXR coil packs, and had to cut a bit of the bottom of the boot cover for a tight fit. 

Thanks VFROZ, I’ll follow your lead. 

These puppies arrived in the post Saturday.

[image: 4AB37ABA-A322-4E4F-9E5A-3C71825D0103.thumb.jpeg.019411448ad708e244d7aa33007ff7c9.jpeg]

One coil is slightly corroded and it just happened to be the one with a loose top seal. Did the seal fail and let water in or did the corrosion stick it to the spark well requiring the breaker to tear it out with force (thereby wrecking the seal?).

I’ll never know but will ensure mine are watertight. Will put double o-rings on and ensure the slightly corroded one goes on the rear/right cylinder (least likely to get soaked there I think?). 

Anyway, I saw something else quite interesting on the wiring loom: 

[image: 28C80EC1-449A-4EE1-86B0-EEC327990421.thumb.jpeg.1e39f1e583a5ac3a2c888e34f00f8953.jpeg]

I didn't realise Honda was sub-contracting out bits of their flagship bikes to China? I knew about the entry-level bikes but an ‘08 Fireblade? Surprised me a bit. 

I’m going to try crimping Metri-Pack type Denso connectors to the original VFR wires instead of cutting off the old ones from the CBR loom (will keep these on hand in case things go pear-shaped). My thinking is this method makes for a cleaner install but not sure if the original wires have enough length (funny, my wife was saying just that!). Picking up the new Denso connectors this week. 

Will post when done. 

Thanks again for for all the advice/help from the forum members!

Stray

gig, 02/03/2016 at 11:09 AM

Yes the 2008 fit perfectly if you are happy with the seals on the COP fitting inside the valve covers as apposed to them being capped on top. I think you would need the longer COP if you wanted to additionally cut and fit a capped seal.

Gig, are you sure the seal doesn’t need trimming? 

I just test-fitted a CBR1000RR 2008 COP in my 5th gen and it seems the rubber interferes with full insertion (ooh, Miss!). 

Here’s a pic of the COP with the seal on: 

[image: E429146A-75EE-423B-AE16-B5A858A8F136.thumb.jpeg.c3e79961421cb4e7e423d7dfac015518.jpeg]

Here’s a pic of the COP with the seal off: 

[image: 54EF45D5-A906-4BA9-9DAD-DFB433301515.thumb.jpeg.780440bcc13e90cc3a8e933cc90232ed.jpeg]

See how the first one sits a bit prouder? It also felt like a nice positive engagement with the spark plug with the seal off. 

Not sure if it just needs a bit of lube and a harder push (I’ve got to stop using such language!) but I did lean on it pretty hard. 

Her’s a side-by-side of the VFR plug cap vs CBR COP.

[image: 2F1CF176-972E-4FF9-8446-BACA982654C0.thumb.jpeg.4fb4beb1e5aa1f30e38404735222a588.jpeg]Looks like you need to get the entire plug in to reach the required depth (there I go again). Those little square bits on the COP must be inside. 

For what it’s worth, without the top seal the COP wriggles about a bit so that’s not a solution. Of course it also leaves the spark well exposed to water ingress.

What’s the solution?

Stray  

No such problem with the GSXR coil packs, and after a quick trim the boots seal over and in the VFR cover. 

[image: D7D9DA08-59FF-4BD6-B8CC-E4D9B7C498FB.jpeg]

2 hours ago, VFROZ

No such problem with the GSXR coil packs, and after a quick trim the boots seal over and in the VFR cover. 

[image: D7D9DA08-59FF-4BD6-B8CC-E4D9B7C498FB.jpeg]

Yep, Suzuki parts are the answer. Sorry to say.

Mine are working fine

[image: gallery_554_564_303729.jpg]

[image: IMG_5133.JPG.52131c92bcc81eeb8c3be86ec065f79a.jpg]

Which ones did you end up using Robbie?

2 hours ago, SEBSPEED

Which ones did you end up using Robbie?

x2

Can someone positively ID the part # or specific donor bike model and year for the GSXR coils that have the "tophat" over the top style seal/boot? Thank you in advance. My ebay search for "gxsr coils" brings up quite a few variations (especially considering the volume of non-factory options) and Partzilla doesn't show specific part images for these. 

Suzuki also use Denso COPs (like Honda), but there are a lot of different versions.  129700-3440, 3630, 3881, 3960, 4150, 4400, 4420, 4800, 5100, 5140, 5230 and 5330.  Those are just the ones I know of!  

I was just about to suggest that someone post the Denso part numbers of the "GSXR" COPs they've found to work...

Cheers,

Mine are from a 2006 GSXR750. 

But you will find most Gixxers from that age are the same. 

Just picked up 4 of these bad boys from a local tuner for £11.

[image: DC8D39C2-8C59-494D-8C33-1E185803148B.thumb.jpeg.575b5ca8766613841223396bb79a57ee.jpeg]Will be crimping to VFR harness this weekend...

And these are the ones.

[image: DSCF2674.JPG]

[image: DSCF2672.JPG]

4800 is what I would call a "long" COP with an external grommet.  Used on GSXR750 (06-07), GSXR600 (01-03), Yamaha XV1600.  Other long COPs with external grommets include: 5100 (also GSXR750 06-07?), 5140 (GSXR750 11-16) and 5230 (GSXR750 08-11).

I'm curious how Stray is going to seal his COPs...

All of the Honda COPs seem to be internally sealed, which means that the seal depends on the valve cover having a smaller orifice than I believe VFR valve covers have.  All of the externally sealed COPs I've tried on my 3rd gen do not really fit correctly, but VFROZ did mention that some trimming is required.  I've also tried swapping grommets between different COPs, but that wasn't much help.  (FYI, the 3rd gen cannot use the long COPs--it needs shorter ones to clear the radiator, but the only short ones I've found that had external grommets were on the Yamaha R6 ca. 2002.)

Ciao,

3 hours ago, shaynus

Sigh...  that's one problem with living so far away from anywhere  - the cheapest set I found (4 plugs + harness) was at least $100 more than that. And that is from the UK. One 'local' (other side of the country) ebay seller is asking for $220 for the same thing!

I got the whole lot from the US for under AU$75 posted Shaynus. 

A bit of patience will pay off mate. 

4 hours ago, VFROZ

A bit of patience will pay off mate. 

But when I get an idea in my head I want to do something about it NOW!

... and then have the parts sit in my shed for 6-12 months until I get a chance to do anything and then another 6-12 months until I finish it!

;-)

12 hours ago, shaynus

But when I get an idea in my head I want to do something about it NOW!

... and then have the parts sit in my shed for 6-12 months until I get a chance to do anything and then another 6-12 months until I finish it!

;-)

Wow!

It's like looking in a mirror... that sounds just like me  :blush:

Got it fully finalized today. I bought some better soldering gear and heat gun for heat shrink tubing so I could permanently join the CBR plugs to the VFR harness. 

#3 wire was a tad short making it tighter than I wanted, so I added some length. I have most of a ZX636 wiring harness and found one wire to match. The other will have to be brown...

[image: IMG_3339.JPG]

[image: IMG_3340.JPG]

[image: IMG_3341.JPG]

[image: IMG_3342.JPG]

[image: IMG_3343.JPG]

I found some fancy high temp resistant tape used by auto manufacturers for under hood wiring.(Tesa 51036, btw) Figured it was worth a shot. More like a cloth than traditional stretch electrical tape. I still suck at wrapping, though...

[image: IMG_3344.JPG]

I didn't trust my jenky soldering to not eventually poke through the heat shrink, so I gave each one a wrap of tape.

[image: IMG_3345.JPG]

[image: IMG_3346.JPG]

[image: IMG_3347.JPG]

[image: IMG_3348.JPG]

[image: IMG_3349.JPG]

Starts on the button, as they say. Actually better than it had been recently. It was taking 2 pushes when cold, now it fires right up with the first push! I'll probably change the plugs at some point soon-ish. I don't remember how long they've been in there.

Good job, Kev. Looks very neat. 

Rush2112, 4/11/2018 at 8:08 PM

Wow!

It's like looking in a mirror... that sounds just like me  :blush:

Yup, me too! 

2 hours ago, Stray

Good job, Kev. Looks very neat. 

Thanks! I've actually been practicing my soldering this evening and I could do it so much better then I did the other day.

I posted this in my refurb thread already, so if you've seen it before apologies. I completed my COP swap recently and this thread was an excellent guide. I chose to use the boot/seal over the top style COP's common to GSXR's and, like others, found the length/plug engagement/and seal to work seamlessly on the VFR. One tip - I pulled the rubber seal and installed it first, then inserted the coil second. This ended up meaning the seals sat a bit lower on the coil, just below the notched area they sat in originally. The fit around the coil is a little tighter because of this, and the seal over the plug tunnel is very positive as well. We will see if they move around, I haven't had the bike back on the road yet. Here is a pic of the part #, thanks everyone for sharing the info:

[image: 20180603_183931_001.jpg?dl=0]

Anyone know which Denso pn. the VFR1200 uses?

Ciao,

3 hours ago, JZH

Anyone know which Denso pn. the VFR1200 uses?

Ciao,

Denso part number means like this ? 129700-5370

15 hours ago, yogisays09

Denso part number means like this ? 129700-5370

I searched some time ago and got the same pn. 129700-5370

Vee-Ef-Ar, 6/25/2018 at 7:01 AM

I searched some time ago and got the same pn. 129700-5370

That's the one--thanks, both.

I saw an eBay ad for one recently (but not the pn. view) and it definitely looked like a Denso CoP.  The Denso part numbers all begin with 127900, but 5370 is not one I've seen before (or measured).  It looks like a CBR1000RR CoP, which is pn. 5150 (which is the same length as a 4400), but the grommet appears to be significantly wider--which would help "internal" sealing in larger valve cover openings.  Here is a picture of a 5150:

[image: image.png.bae62a19eb00b99ce81e0f7e18e2d176.png] 

And here is the 5370:

[image: 1489213346_Denso129700-5370(VFR1200X).thumb.jpg.f03000caf57740bdde0e568485842b43.jpg]

Now, if they only sold the grommets separately...

Ciao,

9 hours ago, JZH

Now, if they only sold the grommets separately...

Surely someone with a 7thGen has or will change their plugs sooner or later... and have a decent set of vernier calipers.

adkfinn - The 129700-4800 sounds promising, let us know

I'm in the VFROZ camp, where prices are somewhat surprising, including the not-so "plug and play" options.