This modification is actually pretty standard for upgrading VFR forks. To take the Cartridge/Fork Caps from a CBR and install them into a VFR. For a 5th Generation VFR such as my 1998 VFR the cartridge from an f3 will work, and for a VTEC the Cartridge from an F4 will work. I found a set of 96 F3 forks on Ebay that were sort of in bad shape. Tubes were bent a bit but not enough to bend the cartridges. The fork lowers also had some epoxy over a hole in the fork. I did not ask why I can only assume a collision with something.
I did not need those parts anyways just what was inside.
Here is how they arrived, unfortunately they came in a box that was the wrong size and was taped with Duct tape, one of the forks actually punctured the box and so there was some damage to the fork cap from impact with something hard.
I only paid $75 bucks for the darn things so I did not complain, but not good feedback. But delivered as stated in the auction - I know I know for those of you who know about my problems with Ebay and VFRd I have since decided to move on and not try to fight Goliath anymore, not worth it. Call me a Hypocrite if you will for using it.
The forks were missing the snap ring and the bushings and oil seal were loosely hanging out, and the epoxied fork bottom was pretty ugly. I removed the fork caps and slid the long adjustment tube out of the damping rods, removed the springs and spacers.
This is where I ran into problems, apparently the guy who sold these to me had already tried to remove the cartridges cause all the oil was gone - fine with me less mess!
However when I put my Allen wrench on the bottom of the fork to remove the bottom bolt it would just spin - I tried applying tension to the damping rod to get a bite on the screw but the bolt just continued to spin without unscrewing. I HAD TO GET MID-EVIL ON IT!!
YUP thats a hacksaw! Look at that awful epoxy job. I just cut off the lower part of the fork to gain access to the cartridge.
You see what was happening is the bolt had frozen into the compression valve body and was spinning the valve around inside the cartridge - nothing I could do but cut the thing open to get to the cartridge.
Here you can see the cartridge bottom and the bottom of the fork cut off I was careful not to damage the actual cartridge itself.
I pulled off the top of the fork body as much as I could
The fork tube will not come off until the cartridge is unscrewed there is a flange that prevents it from coming off. What I did now was maneuver the cartridge bottom onto my vise so I could clamp the compression valve and prevent it from spinning. It worked, I was going to toss the F3 compression valve anyway.
Two months ago I replaced the compression valves on my cartridge with Race Tech Gold Valves, they are the same size as the F3 valves so I just transplanted my Gold Valves into the F3 Cartridge.
Here you can see the parts I needed
The F3 cartridge, the fork cap and with the rebound adjustment rod are the parts I needed. looks almost the same as the VFR cartridge but with that adjustment rod that slides down the damping rod tube.
After removing the locking clip on the bottom of the F3 cartridge I removed the Rebound and Compression Valves.
You can see the rebound valve is a different design from the VFR valve but the compression valve is the same - no adjustment.
This is a picture of the original VFR valves notice the difference.
The F3 rebound valve has a hole that can be opened like a faucet, there is a long rod that can be moved up and down to open the hole to control the flow of oil.
Here you can see a side by side comparison of the two cartridges
The F3 is shorter but has a longer fork cap, the VFR also had a fork oil lock piece that serves as a spacer cause the forks extend longer on a VFR due to the difference in rake between the two bikes. Longer rake requires longer forks.
Here I am transplanting my Gold-valves compression into the F3 fork.
I also transplanted my Gold Rebound valves into the F3 forks. I decided to make an adjustment on the compression valve by removing one .15 x 17mm shim for a bit softer ride, the ride was still a bit harsh. Race Tech shim stacks are designed for racing and so can be a bit harsh on street applications, its just a matter of removing a shim to your liking. They actually provide a series of recipes for different shim stacks to give you a harder or softer ride - mostly its just a matter of adding a shim or taking one off from the recommended recipe.
If your not quite sure what I am talking about I wrote a more detailed description of the VFR Valves in this Thread its a more detailed reference piece with diagrams and such, refer to it if you need more info.
Intalling Race Tech Gold Valves
All the pieces side by side
The Springs side by side
I thought I might need to adjust the size of the spacers on my springs - I use Race Tech springs designed for my weight. They are stiffer than the Honda Springs and are single rate. So I put the spacers and springs side by side and they turned out to be the same length together. so I did not cut the spacers to compensate. I may still need to cut some of the spacer to get the bike to sag right but from looking at them side by side I determined that they do not need to be cut as of yet. It all depends on if the bike sags properly when I get them back on the bike. I decided to put the oil lock piece from the VFR cartridge on the bottom of the F3 cartridge. The F3 just bolted right into the compression valve.
The VFR had that lock piece in there between the compression valve and the bottom of the fork.
All put together.
It looks like the bike sits a bit high with the preload backed all the way out, I still have to measure the sag so I may still have to cut the spacers I will report on that later after I do my sag measurement.
Springs, spacers, washers, lock-tip all installed.
I also solved my oil leak by just buying a whole new oil pan. I stripped out the threads on the oil plug on the old one and tried to repair it with some metallic epoxy. Did not work! I called around to machine shops to bore it out and tap it for a larger plug. Ended up just as cheap to get a new oil pan!
Brand New Oilpan
Hey Slammer !!!
I'm a regular lurker on this board, but this topic is bringing me out into the light !!! ?
I've been looking at doing this swap on my 2001 for a while now... I've got some Race Tech gold valves waiting in a drawer, and will also be buying new Race Tech fork springs soon. ?Figured I might as well upgrade everything at once...
I really am no expert at suspensions, so please excuse me if these are stoopid questions...
I could get a pair of F3 forks for REAL cheap. Problem is, they're quite bent, wich means the damping rod will also be bent. ?Now I was wondering, can you swap the damping rods from the F3 for those from the VFR cartridges, or are they "cartridge specific" ie F3 damping rods only will fit in the F3 cartridge ? ?Is it even possible to break apart the cartridges more than what you did ? ?And if a swap is possible, can you retain the fork rebound adjustment ?
My goal was to take the F3 rebound valves and fork caps, use my VFR damping rods, drop in new Race Tech springs and Gold Valves. ?Somehow, I don't think this would work, but I thought I might ask...
Thanks in advance for your answers. ?BTW, your "How to" pictorials are really great !!! Keep up the good work.
Cheers,
P.O.
2001 VFR Red Devil (currently resting for a few months...)
Quebec VFR Club
You cant remove the damping rod from the cartidge without tearing the cartidge apart, stamped together. so a bent one is just bent. Perhaps some heat to bent it strait but it might be stress cracked.
I had my forks redone the easy way by Traxxion Dynamics
http://www.traxxion.com/about.shtml
With the F3 tops and my original VFR bottoms. Makes the bike ride soooo much better and feels safer in conners.
?If I was going to do it again. I would use VTR bottom forks insted of the VFR so I could easily upgrade my brakes to better ones. ?Some of the guys on the VFR websites in europe use RC51 forks brakes, tripples,wheel (intire front end) for the best results.
Great post, Slammer. Obviously you've done this posting / storytelling stuff before!
Question:
With all the time and effort you guys put into upgrading your bikes, wouldn't it be more worthwhile to simply put the money towards a newer model (ie. to VTEC)?
All new adjustable suspension, great brakes, etc etc..
Just a thought.
Well the VTEC is the same thing, non adjustable, overdamped less undersprung for the big guys. The VTEC suspension is good but not as good as my Ohlins shock f3 racetech suspension is now!
I have thought about a newer bike. When I look at them though I can't find one I like as much as my 97 VFR. Some odd way I have allways loved the 94-97's the way they look,sound,feel,ride. I do like trying to make them even better oddly enough also.
Nice write up HS. :bow:
Nice post Slammer. After doing this once I see how much is involved in.
We should call you
Hack Saw Slammer :smash:
Happy New Year to all. I searched available posts and could not find an answer for it, sorry to bother all with this newbie question.
A few months ago I picked up an all stock 98 with 4k. I've changed oil/coolant/hydraulics and all this talk about forks has me wondering.
Should I be concerned about the original oil enough to flush it? I could not find any info in the shop manual. Is there a shelf-life or is it rather a function of miles/use? If it needs to be changed, should I jump into the F3/gold upgrade HS did?
I'm still getting used to the machine, and have not noticed any unusual bounce/push.
Any and all suggestions are appreciated.
Jim
Thanks Fixer. One less thing I need to address before the final thaw.....
Just wondering Slammer, will F4i internals go in the same way on a vtec?
:twist: HS, the valve bodies for comp.& rebound look exactly the same for the VFR and F4, looks like you could use a rebound body on the comp. side and vise versa.
Were the Gold valve bodies the same and just have different shim pacs or what on your's ? ???
I double checked on the Race Tech sight, the F3/F4/VFR use the same gold valves. You can look up the part numbers on the race tech site. I am not sure how the F4 adjusts for compression so that may be different. I know the f3 I used did not have compression adjustment. But if its like the ajustment on the rebound the valve and shim stack are a seperate componet from the ajustment mechanism. I just swaped them out from the VFR to the F3 cartridge. I made an adjustment to make the compression shims a bit softer but that was because I thought they were a bit harsh even before I did the swap.
For Race Tech Gold Valves Remember this, compression adjustment shim stacking is determined by the wieght of the rider Rebound stacks are determined by the spring rate only - I guess indirectly rebound it is determined by the wieght of the rider if you using a proper spring wieght for the load.
:twist: Thanks HS, I know they all use the same one's. My question is :where the Gold Valves (gold piece) for comp. and rebound the same ?
The stock one's of the VFR look identical as do the F4's(interchangeable) between bikes and r/c.
???
Do you mean can you use a compression valve for a rebound valve?? No the rebound valve has a large teflon strip while the compression has a small o-ring (cause its is static and does not move). If you look closer at them you will notice the difference when you look at the side profile.
:twist: That's why I'm asking, I don't have a Rebound Gold Valve yet just the Comp. Gold Valve.
The stock all have o-rings !
I'm wondering if I can modify (machine) the stock rebound valve close to a Gold valve. ???
HMM you can see the thicker ring even on the stock rebound valve here.
border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Do you mean can you use a compression valve for a rebound valve?? ?No the rebound valve has a large teflon strip while the compression has a small o-ring (cause its is static and does not move). ?If you look closer at them you will notice the difference when you look at the side profile.
Details,details :goof: Yes your right, i finnally look at the sides of them !
Thanks again HS ! :bow:
I'm very happy with Traxxion and what they did for my 97. It made me wonder why the heck I din't do it long ago since it made the bike feel soooooooooo much better. They really do know how to do it. As for how much it set me back. I don't recall honestly around $1,000 maybe. I just gave my card # and never looked back. I tried to get discounts and they only offerd a slight one. I found my own F3 Forks and sent them compleat with my 97 forks and they did all the work. I only had to tell them how I ride,the kind of roads I ride on and how much I tip the scales at. If you have not done the rear shock yet...do it ASAP. It all so makes the biek feel soooooO much better.
Great post Slammer and very timely as I was just toying with suspension re-do and am getting quite confused on options.
(Cost is also becoming a factor, baby on the way...)
To clarify: in this swap you retain the VFR lowers and just use F3 internals, gaining you compression adjustability in addition to pre-load?
Joe Foe - contact me directly or, if you want, post here about your dealings with Traxxion. Riding friend with a FZ1 just used them and gave me the bug to do this. Like to hear what it set you back $$$ wise if I don't want to pursue the DIY route. Did Traxxion find the F3 parts for you?
Thanks!
suttonbk@comcast.net
I had a warm day today so I shoed on a new set of Pilot Roads and set my sag. I had the preload backed pretty much all the way out and the forks only sagged 30mm. So I put a jack under the header and screwed off the fork caps till lowered it a bit to take off the cap. Pulled out the spacers and cut off about 8mm of each one. Put them back in and reset my sag. Now I have a bit more adjustment on my preload to work with. Sagging about 35mm up front and 32 in back with the preload showing 3 of 6 lines.
Still in a major dilema. Following this thread and the one where everyone is going the Hyperpro route.
I spoke with Traxxion and they were helpful, but fall into the fixed rate school of thought on springs.
Preliminary research for F3 forks looks they run $300-$400 for a servicable set. Is this about right? Was anybody able to find a much better deal?
Thanks for the write-up and pics. Did this to my 98 a couple of years ago and have never looked back.
John in Calif
Still in a major dilema. ?Following this thread and the one where everyone is going the Hyperpro route. ?
I spoke with Traxxion and they were helpful, but fall into the fixed rate school of thought on springs.
Preliminary research for F3 forks looks they run $300-$400 for a servicable set. ?Is this about right? ?Was anybody able to find a much better deal?
To give you a bit of reasoning why the suspension gurus are using fixed rate springs when there are progressive rate springs on the market has to do with the way the damping is valved.
For example take a look at the stock valves, the tiny holes compared with the Race Tech or Traxxion valves. You will notice they are much larger and allow much more oil to flow than the stock valves. The damping action is done mostly by the shim stack, rather than being limited by the size of a smaller valve hole like in the stock cartridge.
So what does that have to do with springs? Stock setup uses heavy oil, smaller more constant vavled holes, but compensates with a progressivly wound spring. This allows for a decent riding fork for a very wide range of riders. The bike is undersprung for the most part till you reach the limit of the stroke where the progressively longer windings take more energy to compress, combine that with a heavy oil small vavling and a decent airpocket to act as a seperate air spring you can accomidate a wide range of load and still have a fairly predictable ride.
Where as the aftermarket guys use stonger springs for the most part, single rate cause the shim stack is progressive instead. You have to consider the entire fork as a whole system rather than a sum of its parts. Two different ways to engineer damping systems accomidating different load conditions different ways.
The aftermarket system is more sensitive to weight load but provides a much more compliant ride over a variety of road conditions - where as the stock system can accomidate a wider range of loads but offers less compliance over differnt road conditions.
I changed to stiffer springs over a year ago before I installed new vavling and found I did not wallow as much in the tight stuff, however my ride was pretty harsh. I compensated by going to 5w oil rather than the 10w standard and found I had a bit better ride, compression was much better but the rebound was just wrong cause thats dependant on the spring rate. It was fine over smooth roads but bumpy roads would have me rolling off, seemed like a good trade off for not wallowing in the tight turns, I just had to roll off when it got bumpy.
Now that I have the right valving BOY its so much better, bumpy roads seem to be soaked up much better, I still get some shock on the really bumpy stuff but no nearly as unstable as before, I feel like it does not fight me so much to lean over either.
If your going to keep the stock cartridge the way it is a bit stiffer progressive spring may solve your wallowing issues. If you go for single rate springs then I would recommend a complete vavle job as well to match them.
ZmZmOn2Still in a major dilema. ?Following this thread and the one where everyone is going the Hyperpro route. ?I spoke with Traxxion and they were helpful, but fall into the fixed rate school of thought on springs.
Preliminary research for F3 forks looks they run $300-$400 for a servicable set. ?Is this about right? ?Was anybody able to find a much better deal?
:twist: ZMZMON2, Using f3 internals with the stock VFR lower tubes with give you Pre-load and Rebound Adjustment, not Comp. That's built into the lower leg tubes.
On cost of used F3 forks, I see them in the $100-200 range on ebay all the time and even better you can buy slightly bend forks much cheaper and still use the undamaged internals. I've bought several sets of bent F4 forks for less than $100 shipped to my door. Only problem is now I decided to just run the whole F4 forks instead( on Vtec), now I have to buy some good one's . :doh:
Thanks 'Slammer for the explanation, it paints a much better picture now and increases my confidence in my final decision. Baileyrock, thanks for correcting my error. :bow:
I'm in the process of tearing the bike down now. As much as the thought of gaining some adjustment on the forks by doing the F3 swap was appealing, I decided not to for time and cost reasons.
I'll be sending the forks to California Suspension Works for a complete Gold Valve job and springs along with a custom sprung Ohlins for the rear. Looking forward to the wrenching experience and the "transformation" that is about to occur.
Thanks again to everyone who weighed in on the topic. :wink:
ZmZmOn2?I'll be sending the forks to California Suspension Works for a complete Gold Valve job and springs along with a custom sprung Ohlins for the rear. ?Looking forward to the wrenching experience and the "transformation" that is about to occur.
Thanks again to everyone who weighed in on the topic. :beer:
:twist: Sweet ! Should be an awesome transformation ! :bow:
Please post results !
:wink:
And how about us poor people, who don't have RaceTech gold valves. Do we use the F3 or the VFR compression valve?
I managed to pick up a slightly bent set of F3 forks from eBay recently, and have just ordered stiffer springs from Wirth in Germany. I guess the adjustment in the rebound valve will be enough to handle the stiffer spring, but how about compression. The valves seem identical, but which will fit the weight of the bike best?
I'm guessing the VFR valve, but there seems to be some pretty smart people around here :beer:
Jan Strandgaard
Denmark, Europe
strandgaardAnd how about us poor people, who don't have RaceTech gold valves. Do we use the F3 or the VFR compression valve?I managed to pick up a slightly bent set of F3 forks from eBay recently, and have just ordered stiffer springs from Wirth in Germany. I guess the adjustment in the rebound valve will be enough to handle the stiffer spring, but how about compression. The valves seem identical, but which will fit the weight of the bike best?
I'm guessing the VFR valve, but there seems to be some pretty smart people around here :goofy:
Jan Strandgaard
Denmark, Europe
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Welcome Jan.
I did the F3 swap w/Race Tech valves on my 5th gen and I know that the F3's and VFR's are interchangeable. You can install the VFR's compression valves on the F3's rods, but the F3's rebound valve stack may not be just right for the VFR. Save up a little bit and get the whole system done. You already got some of the hardest parts, the fork caps/rods/pistons.
Jim
sa1713Welcome Jan.I did the F3 swap w/Race Tech valves on my 5th gen and I know that the F3's and VFR's are interchangeable. You can install the VFR's compression valves on the F3's rods, but the F3's rebound valve stack may not be just right for the VFR. Save up a little bit and get the whole system done. You already got some of the hardest parts, the fork caps/rods/pistons.
Jim
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Don't you mean that the valves mounted to the rods are the rebound valves?
Cheers
Jan
strandgaardDon't you mean that the valves mounted to the rods are the rebound valves?Cheers
Jan
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's correct. The compression will sit at the bottom of the fork with the rebound attached to the rod itself. I'd be concerned about the shims from the F3 not matching the need of the VFR.
Jim
Is there any way the pix from this topic can be resurrected? I've got a mate here interested in doing some front end mods, just not to the extent that I have smile.gif
My bike is apart for a winter freshening. I am installaing the Wilbers rear shock (arrived yesterday) and the racetech springs and Gold Valve kit. I was able to secure a pair of bent F3 forks for the rebound adjustability.
I need some help.
The F3 forks cam apart rather easily, specifically the aluminum cover over the bottom of the fork that prevents access to the compression valve. This part was in the fork tube after I disassembled th forks. Perhaps because of the bend and additional force needed to get the cartridge out fo the F3 tubes.
On my VFR cartridge, that part is very secure. I have watched Paul Thede's video on rebuilding forks and reread HS original post when added the gold valves before he scored the F3 forks for this post but I still can't get those parts off.
I don't want to clamp them inthe vice, any other adVICE?
Keith
cornercarverMy bike is apart for a winter freshening. I am installaing the Wilbers rear shock (arrived yesterday) and the racetech springs and Gold Valve kit. I was able to secure a pair of bent F3 forks for the rebound adjustability. I need some help.
The F3 forks cam apart rather easily, specifically the aluminum cover over the bottom of the fork that prevents access to the compression valve. This part was in the fork tube after I disassembled th forks. Perhaps because of the bend and additional force needed to get the cartridge out fo the F3 tubes.
On my VFR cartridge, that part is very secure. I have watched Paul Thede's video on rebuilding forks and reread HS original post when added the gold valves before he scored the F3 forks for this post but I still can't get those parts off.
I don't want to clamp them inthe vice, any other adVICE?
Keith
PM sent.
Keith you have to push on the bottom of the compression valve, push it inside into the cartridge in order to get at the circlip iholding it in, once thats out you can remove the compression valve, careful that circlip will want to bound out of there and take off then dissapear in the dark reaches of your work area!
HispanicSlammerKeith you have to push on the bottom of the compression valve, push it inside into the cartridge in order to get at the circlip iholding it in, once thats out you can remove the compression valve, careful that circlip will want to bound out of there and take off then dissapear in the dark reaches of your work area!
He was having a little trouble getting the shiny aluminum "oil caps" off of the VFR dampers and was concerned that there was something holding them on (press fit, hidden setscrew, magic), unlike the F3 caps that practically fell off of the dampers. He didn't want to force something unknowingly and tear it up. :joystick:
I told him that they'll come off with just a little gentle tapping....nothing in particular holding them on, except magic. wink.gif
THEN he'll get to the compression valve circlip, but he's already taken the F3 stuff apart so he's familiar with that process.
And yeah, I've taken about a million circlips off of all sorts of stuff for 30 years...but sure enough, I launched that damn compression circlip into the darkest reaches of my work area. Well...actually, I don't HAVE any dark reaches in my work area, but it managed to vanish and cause me 20 minutes of searching anyway!! :wub: :pissed:
Trace
HispanicSlammerKeith you have to push on the bottom of the compression valve, push it inside into the cartridge in order to get at the circlip iholding it in, once thats out you can remove the compression valve, careful that circlip will want to bound out of there and take off then dissapear in the dark reaches of your work area!
He was having a little trouble getting the shiny aluminum "oil caps" off of the VFR dampers and was concerned that there was something holding them on (press fit, hidden setscrew, magic), unlike the F3 caps that practically fell off of the dampers. He didn't want to force something unknowingly and tear it up. :joystick:
I told him that they'll come off with just a little gentle tapping....nothing in particular holding them on, except magic. wink.gif
THEN he'll get to the compression valve circlip, but he's already taken the F3 stuff apart so he's familiar with that process.
Well, those shiny little caps smited me since yesterday, so anyone who happens upon this thread in the future, know this.
A little bit of heat and they will fall off. I used a map gas torch for 10 sec and then they will come off in a (gloved) hand, or just give them a little push with a screwdriver or something. my first one fell off when i turned it upside down to get a grab on it after heating. :unsure: i thought they had loctite or something or were screwed on. nope!
After doing the rear Ohlins shock install, this is the next step, 'cause I'm too poor to install a upside down fork smile.gif
Do you REALLY think it will improve my ride???
furylowAfter doing the rear Ohlins shock install, this is the next step, 'cause I'm too poor to install a upside down fork smile.gif Do you REALLY think it will improve my ride???
The F3 parts alone will give you rebound damping adjustment only. That is a small, but good improvement.
The Gold Valves, correct spring for your weight, they offer the largest improvement, but are also the most expensive part of the equation.
The used F3 parts should be cheap in comparison if you look around.
strandgaard
And how about us poor people, who don't have RaceTech gold valves. Do we use the F3 or the VFR compression valve?
This is also my big question right now.
I have the F3 iterials (thanks SEB !) just no racetech valves
keny
strandgaard
And how about us poor people, who don't have RaceTech gold valves. Do we use the F3 or the VFR compression valve?
This is also my big question right now.
I have the F3 iterials (thanks SEB !) just no racetech valves
You will REUSE the F3rebound valve atttached to the Rebound adjustment rod..
I did this with a 6th gen and F4 parts.
marid2apterbilt
keny
strandgaard
And how about us poor people, who don't have RaceTech gold valves. Do we use the F3 or the VFR compression valve?
This is also my big question right now.
I have the F3 iterials (thanks SEB !) just no racetech valves
You will REUSE the F3rebound valve atttached to the Rebound adjustment rod..
I did this with a 6th gen and F4 parts.
So.
F3 interials whit F3 rebound valve and VFR compression valve and VFR spring, and outer upper and lower tubs.
Got it right?
keny
marid2apterbilt
keny
strandgaard
And how about us poor people, who don't have RaceTech gold valves. Do we use the F3 or the VFR compression valve?
This is also my big question right now.
I have the F3 iterials (thanks SEB !) just no racetech valves
You will REUSE the F3rebound valve atttached to the Rebound adjustment rod..
I did this with a 6th gen and F4 parts.
So.
F3 interials whit F3 rebound valve and VFR compression valve and VFR spring, and outer upper and lower tubs.
Got it right?
Check the length on the F3 cartridge itself. THe only parts I used for my F4/6thgen conversion were the rebound rod and attached rebound valve. I tried using the F4 cartridge but it was too short and didnt let the forks extend fully..
Remember I did this with F4 parts not F3 on a 6th gen but I assume it shoudl be about the same either way..
I also had to reshim the rebound valve but that is a whole other subject..
marid2apterbilt
Check the length on the F3 cartridge itself. THe only parts I used for my F4/6thgen conversion were the rebound rod and attached rebound valve. I tried using the F4 cartridge but it was too short and didnt let the forks extend fully..
Sam,
I don't see how it would be possible to Not use the F4/F4i cartridge and expect to have any rebound adjustment as the length of the rebound rod is specific to the length of the cartridge. If you used the longer VFR cartridge the adjusting rod end(needle part) would be no where near the valve orifice it's trying to regulate! :fing02:
BaileyRock
marid2apterbilt
Check the length on the F3 cartridge itself. THe only parts I used for my F4/6thgen conversion were the rebound rod and attached rebound valve. I tried using the F4 cartridge but it was too short and didnt let the forks extend fully..
Sam,
I don't see how it would be possible to Not use the F4/F4i cartridge and expect to have any rebound adjustment as the length of the rebound rod is specific to the length of the cartridge. If you used the longer VFR cartridge the adjusting rod end(needle part) would be no where near the valve orifice it's trying to regulate! unsure.gif
You dont need the f4cartridge itself as it is too short to work properly with the VFR upper and lower fork tubes, You do need to use the VFR cartridge with F4/F4I internals inside it..
.. The Adj rod, and hollow rebound rod with rebound valve on the end is all. Well you need the fork cap too.. And yes it does work..
The F4 adj rod end (needle part) is specific to the rebound rod itself(Hollow tube w/ rebound valve on 1 end and bolts to the fork cap on the other)
If you use the F4 cylinder cartridge in the VFR forks the rebound valve actually tops out on the cartridge itself instead of the built in stops inside the forks. And will also pulll the Comp valve thru the bottom of the cartridge destroying the C-Clip that holds it inside the cartridge..
not sure if Im right but I refer to the cartridge as the long -+1" tube that the rebound valve rides inside of..
..
marid2apterbilt
You dont need the f4cartridge itself as it is too short to work properly with the VFR upper and lower fork tubes, You do need to use the VFR cartridge with F4/F4I internals inside it..
.. The Adj rod, and hollow rebound rod with rebound valve on the end is all. Well you need the fork cap too.. And yes it does work..
The F4 adj rod end (needle part) is specific to the rebound rod itself(Hollow tube w/ rebound valve on 1 end and bolts to the fork cap on the other)
If you use the F4 cylinder cartridge in the VFR forks the rebound valve actually tops out on the cartridge itself instead of the built in stops inside the forks. And will also pulll the Comp valve thru the bottom of the cartridge destroying the C-Clip that holds it inside the cartridge..
not sure if Im right but I refer to the cartridge as the long -+1" tube that the rebound valve rides inside of..
..
No, your right. The rebound valve is attached to the bottom of the tube(hollow) so as long as you use the F4/F4i tube in the VFR cartridge the rebound needle with be right where it needs to be in relation to the rebound valve. :comp13:
Was thinking of something else I guess. :wheel:
One of the suspension shop guys just modded the top out spring on the F4 cartridge assm in order the make the F4 cartridge work.
I guess either way will work if set-up right! :fing02:
BR
Ok, I opened the F3 interials today, but found one not so good thing, other headcaps rebound adjuster is sized, aint moving. I did put some wd40 on and layd it on oil bath. Any other adwise to make it move again?its in full out posision.
FIrst I would let it soak for a while. If it still doesn't budge, heat the oil bath up a bit (au bain marie). If it still won't come loose, clean it as much as possible and ask at the local jewelry store if they are willing to soak it in in their ultrasonic cleaner.
[image: View Post]keny, on 18 February 2010 - 01:49 AM, said:
A friend (that do a lot of werch on bikes) manage to make the reb adjuster turn again :goofy:
So I�m back on track
:goofy:
I don't have either fork and probably never will but read the whole thing. A sign of an excellent write up! :goofy: Good job HS.
A friend (that do a lot of werch on bikes) manage to make the reb adjuster turn again :goofy:
So I´m back on track
Ok, I have one 5th gen fork leg apart and the F3 parts also and did compare them.
Here all on the floor, F3 on right, 5th on left side
[image: Attached Image: Kuva000.jpg]
Then I started to compare the damper rod whit rebound valve,The F3 is shorter thanthe 5th gen by ~10mm
[image: Attached Image: Kuva003.jpg]
Then the top caps, the F3 is ~20mm longer than the 5th gens preload adj. fully out.
[image: Attached Image: Kuva002.jpg]
Then the damp rod bodys. As sade before the 5th gen has a additional spacer under this (~10mm spacing). The bodys are same lengt on both but the full out stop spring (rebound spring?, I call it that) is located different. If you put them side by side so botom is at same level and the 5th gens haveing the spacer on (like pic below ,F3 left 5th gen right), the return spring is at same height.
[image: Attached Image: Kuva001.jpg]
That make me think I will leave the spacer out. by that I compensit the 10mm so whit the 10mm shorter damp rod and 20mm longer cap the leangth is the same as stock in teory. Also if I would add the spacer it would allow the fork leg to extend 10mm further. 10mm more travel?
On the other side, asemled the 5th gen interials are about 2,5cm longer (whit under spacer) than the F3 package fully out posisson. That meaning the interials (rebound valve) will stop the rebound movmet to full not the rebound spring (the F3 rebound valve is longer than the 5th Gens and not allow the F3 to extend as long as the 5th gen parts). That makes me think of trying to mix. The F3 rebound valve/damper rod whit the 5th gen outer tube ( I find non other differense than the reb spring posisson on them), to get the rebound spring closer. This will shorten the travel by ~10mm thro, but I have not had any problems whit fork botoming out, so maby the risk is worth to take? On the other hand no one clame they have problems as derect use, so why not do like other?
Edited by keny, 23 February 2010 - 12:57 AM.
You will need that oil spacer since the vfr fork bottom bolt will not properly screw into the compression valve body without it. I have it in mine and I have the same setup.
[image: View Post]HispanicSlammer, on 23 February 2010 - 01:18 AM, said:
You will need that oil spacer since the vfr fork bottom bolt will not properly screw into the compression valve body without it. I have it in mine and I have the same setup.
Ok, thanks for that info.
I´m seriusly thinking of useing the 5th gen outer body (right one in pic below):
[image: Posted Image]
As I then get some fork movement as stock, not 10mm extendede. Also I think of cutting the spring spacer (or made new ones) at onec as the spring feels OK for me (I´m not that heavy 73kg) and I had preload adjusted so nearly fully out on the stock fork and spring will be cramped ~20mm comperd to that whit the F3 preload adjuster fully out. Not using the bottom spacer would have helped that by 10mm, but if needed....
Edited by keny, 23 February 2010 - 01:51 AM.Ok, first I hope you dont mind I continue on your topic HispanicSlammer?
I now have first fork leg back together.
I started by putting in new slode bearings for the fork leg, and new seals. I usually une a small plastic bag on top of the leg to avoid the seal getting damaged, and put some light grees on the seal so its lubed for a long time.
[image: Attached Image: Kuva010.jpg]
Then I again tock some mesurments.
First I compared the upper fri lengt of the 5th gen and F3 interials.
[image: Attached Image: Kuva008.jpg]
[image: Attached Image: Kuva007.jpg]
About ~11mm lenth difference as the as the outer tube bodys are at even height, 5th gen lower spacer not mounted.
Then the head cap difference from low point (where upper spring stopper come against.
[image: Attached Image: Kuva009.jpg]
Some ~33mm differense. From that I asumed I need about that mutch shorter distanser for the spring. As I use the stock spring (and valves for that matter) the stock spacer is 50mm long, so I need a 20mm long spacer.
As I could not make a new one (have a frien that does that for me) and I didnt want to cut the stock one, I proceed to see how long the leg will be compared to the other (stock) one that I still hadnt open.
And by the way I did use the 5th gen outer valve tube so the rebound stop will be in stock place, not 10mm more upp, and ofcorse the stock spacer.
[image: Attached Image: Kuva011.jpg]
As I had the spring in place I was supriced that if I had a 30mm shorter spacer, the spring would not be against the upper stopper!, a ~20mm shorter spacer would be more right. (sorry no pic of this) As I remeber you did cut the spacer ~10mm HispanicSlammer, my teory that using the F3 outer valve body will let the leg extend 10mm further compared to stock. As I had the cap scruvet to the fork tube, (after some words not sutable to print) as the spring was a pain to compress du to the to long spacer, I put the fork leg whit the F3 volve and head cap sid by side whit the one still haveing stock valve and head cap. And vola same length!
[image: Attached Image: Kuva013.jpg]
[image: Attached Image: Kuva012.jpg]
I would be intresting if I could get the mesurment how long a fork leg whit F3 oute valve body is. I would gess 10mm longer than the stock, but I hope someone that have done this mod can give me that (HispanicSlammer?), and I´m sorry I forgot to mesur how long the stock is. I have to check that and come back.
Alos one note. As fork leg fully extended the reb stop spring is stoping the movement not the valev rod even they are some shorter useing the F3 rod.
So now I just need to do the other leg and fet the proper spacer, maby I made my frien do diffren lenght ones so I can chose the best sutable onec, and not runnung to his shop many times :fing02:
Edited by keny, 23 February 2010 - 03:55 PM.
So I know from this thread that F3 guts drop into 5gen tubes, and F4 guts drop into 6gen tubes, but will F4i guts drop into a 5th gen? I have the opportunity to get a set of cartridges off a smashed up f4i at my local junker http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/smile.gif
Also, would getting the lowers off the F4 do me any good, or just cause me to have to swap out the brakes? The forks themselves are toast, but the lowers seem ok...
I dont think there is a difference between the F4 and F4I fork INTERNALS. ( I may be wrong)
BR should be able to comfirm all your current questions..
[image: View Post]2fast2young, on 05 March 2010 - 04:44 PM, said:
So I know from this thread that F3 guts drop into 5gen tubes, and F4 guts drop into 6gen tubes, but will F4i guts drop into a 5th gen? I have the opportunity to get a set of cartridges off a smashed up f4i at my local junker http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/smile.gif
Also, would getting the lowers off the F4 do me any good, or just cause me to have to swap out the brakes? The forks themselves are toast, but the lowers seem ok...
F4/F4i are both 43mm tubes and the 5th gen uses 41mm tubes so no.
If your willing to De-Link the brakes then you can just slap a full set of F4/F4i forks on the bike and have fully adjustable forks. The F4/F4i fork lowers do nothing for you! :biggrin:
[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 06 March 2010 - 03:28 PM, said:
F4/F4i are both 43mm tubes and the 5th gen uses 41mm tubes so no.
If your willing to De-Link the brakes then you can just slap a full set of F4/F4i forks on the bike and have fully adjustable forks. The F4/F4i fork lowers do nothing for you! :angry:
D*mn. I suspected as such. d*mn... :mellow:
I made swap using VTR 1000F cartridges. I just needed to make new spacers- 3 cm are OK.
Attached Images
Sorry to bring this up again but I have just done this mod ... I used the F3 damper rods including rebound valves, and fork caps. I retained the VFR cartridge bodies, compression valves and lock pieces.I installed Racetech .95 springs. I figured by using the VFR cartridge bodies the rebound springs would be in the right position, and fork extension should be same as stock. I haven't had the chance to test it out yet, but would appreciate any thoughts, or experiences ..
Ok ... 10wt oil, approx 20mm preload, 4 clicks back from max rebound, felt very firm and well damped. Felt a bit dead while just bouncing on them ... but felt nice and sure footed out on the road ... but then what would I know ? :tour:
Sounds like you know enough to try something different. Glad it worked out.
End of thread · 64 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 17 Feb 2020