Will this work to cool my RR, or am I wasting my time

I've asked in related posts a couple of times here and I still have not gotten any feedback on this possible active cooling method for VFR RRs:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/BeckVFR/Picture033.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/BeckVFR/Picture032.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/BeckVFR/Picture034.jpg
It's a "heat pipe" cooling system I found this by chance when someone near work was throwing away old computer equipment outside their business.
I tested it and it certainly gets the CPU mounting plate at the ends of the pipe cold. I've been looking at this type of cooling equipment for sometime already and finally I get this one for free, so I can't resist making an attempt to test this out. I'm not a computer expert, so I'm not sure if this equipment will make a dent in cooling the RR on my bike and help keep it from overheating under the tail fairing. I know CPUs get very hot too but are we looking at similar temps to the heat produced by RRs? I think I can make this thing fit under the tail faring somehow, but I won't find out till I start a winter project with it. and if someone here with experience with these heat pipes can give me an Idea if it might be worth the effort. Maybe I can even just omit the computer fan on it and stick the "radiator" portion in the airstream somehow??.

Beck
95 VFR

I'd reckon you would be better investing the time in repositioning the RR into an airstream somewhere, mounted where the metal isn't heated by the motor :biggrin:

If you can attach the mounting plate to a flat metal surface on the RR I think it will perform very well. Do you know what CPU or GPU this heat pipe was used for? Desktop P4s or Gaming GPUs consume a lot of power so it must be able to dissipate a lot of heat.

I'd say it's worth a try, I bet it would be perfect. I'm not sure how much air goes through the tail section so I would keep the fan. If you relocate the R/R to the subframe tray then you'll have plenty of room too..

If you're really serious about a cool R/R, this might be the ticket!

http://en.wikipedia....lectric_cooling

hey beck,
weeeeellllllll, if you gave a flat top r/r (no fins) then this would be awesome for it.. if if you have fins.. then this will stop some of the air flow getting to the r/r..
you CAN however put the plumbing sandwiched between the frame. :fing02:

[image: View Post]gll429, on 21 September 2010 - 10:20 AM, said:

hey beck,
weeeeellllllll, if you gave a flat top r/r (no fins) then this would be awesome for it.. if if you have fins.. then this will stop some of the air flow getting to the r/r..
you CAN however put the plumbing sandwiched between the frame. :fing02:

Actually, the back of the RRs are still flat, even with the added fins on the later replacement RR units from Honda and that flat aluminum back section will be the surface that will go against the square aluminum cooling plate that you see at the end of the tubes that you can see in the pics. This is where they mount a computer's CPU chip for cooling.. Some heat transfer grease beween the two will hopefully make it work better. This heat pipe cooling unit defintely came from an office computer and not a game system. I'll try and reaserch the cooling capacities on these things in general and see if on paper if it can handle the RR's heat which I think can go to near 200 degres F in some conditions. Then it's on with the Winter project.
Thanks for the feedback guys! :fing02:

Beck
95 VFR

[image: View Post]Beck, on 21 September 2010 - 11:03 AM, said:

[image: View Post]gll429, on 21 September 2010 - 10:20 AM, said:

hey beck,
weeeeellllllll, if you gave a flat top r/r (no fins) then this would be awesome for it.. if if you have fins.. then this will stop some of the air flow getting to the r/r..
you CAN however put the plumbing sandwiched between the frame. :fing02:

Actually, the back of the RRs are still flat, even with the added fins on the later replacement RR units from Honda and that flat aluminum back section will be the surface that will go against the square aluminum cooling plate that you see at the end of the tubes that you can see in the pics. This is where they mount a computer's CPU chip for cooling.. Some heat transfer grease beween the two will hopefully make it work better. This heat pipe cooling unit defintely came from an office computer and not a game system. I'll try and reaserch the cooling capacities on these things in general and see if on paper if it can handle the RR's heat which I think can go to near 200 degres F in some conditions. Then it's on with the Winter project.
Thanks for the feedback guys! :fing02:

Beck
95 VFR


you dont need research.. they can clearly handle the heat and are made to do so.. my point.. those small fins are impeding better airflow to the r/r big fins.. in any case.. try it.

I just keep mine immersed on liquid nitrogen, problem solved

The fan is all you really need, the problem is there is little to no air flow in that area. The heat pipe is a bit of overkill, but if you can make it fit go for it.

Ability to keep your R/R cool will depend more on your ambient air temperature and air flow than anything. All a heat pipe will do is dissipate heat faster. To really see how this would work you would need to isolate the heat pipe from the frame so that it is only cooling the R/R and maintain a source of cooler air. If you try to sandwich the heat pipe between the R/R and frame you'll be trying to cool both. A Peltier Junction would be awesome but you'd still have to dissipate the heat from the hot side of the junction.

-Jake

[image: View Post]Beck, on 21 September 2010 - 03:45 AM, said:

I've asked in related posts a couple of times here and I still have not gotten any feedback on this possible active cooling method for VFR RRs:
[

It's a "heat pipe" cooling system I found this by chance when someone near work was throwing away old computer equipment outside their business.
I tested it and it certainly gets the CPU mounting plate at the ends of the pipe cold. I've been looking at this type of cooling equipment for sometime already and finally I get this one for free, so I can't resist making an attempt to test this out. I'm not a computer expert, so I'm not sure if this equipment will make a dent in cooling the RR on my bike and help keep it from overheating under the tail fairing. I know CPUs get very hot too but are we looking at similar temps to the heat produced by RRs? I think I can make this thing fit under the tail faring somehow, but I won't find out till I start a winter project with it. and if someone here with experience with these heat pipes can give me an Idea if it might be worth the effort. Maybe I can even just omit the computer fan on it and stick the "radiator" portion in the airstream somehow??.

Beck
95 VFR


Wow, That would be way cool if you could figure that out. I'm really interested in seeing how this turns out. How is that thing powered?

I know my R/R is running at least 150 degrees. Really the whole under seat environment is hot, probably in the 140 F range. I have been thinking about a fan to get some air flow on the thing and force it over the R/R and exhaust it somewhere to the rear. I looked at ditching the passenger pegs and this would open up a nice area to fool with. The gears are turning...... :blink:

I think part of it is that there is really no where for the heat to go, the area is so enclosed.

Good luck

To determine if this can be effective, you will need to size the heat load with the ability to dissipate. In other words - how much thermal energy - usually in Watts - can be tranferred at a given TEMPERATURE DIFFERENCE.

This type of heat sink is designed to take a relatively higher power density (at the CPU... or where ever you clamp the thing... yes, DO use a film of heat transfer cream to aid in getting uniform thermal contact) - and distributing this heat to the environment, normally the ambient AIR. In order to get a high amount of power dissipated with relatively low temperature increases, you need to have a lot of surface area (ie fins) or relatively high air flow rates, or both.

Inside a heat pipe or pool boiler is a fluid, often water, that is at its phase transition temperature such that a slight increase in temperature turns the fluid to a vapor where it goes up and into the tubes with fins, before being cooled and condensing back to a fluid and returning the base.

Temperature is not the same as heat capacity, but they are related. You need to determine if you can transfer the needed energy (such as watts) within a given temperature difference (that is, you dont want the target to get too hot).

This device is designed to run at a particular temperature at the source - ie: a computer cpu range deemed acceptable for maintaining the life of the cpu. The more energy dumped into it, the hotter it will get because its this temperature difference that drives the heat flux to the surrounding air. UP TO the point that the device cannot keep up and is all vapor (typically an increase in internal pressure) and then basically temperatures will sky rocket.

So will this keep up? Try to find out how much power it was capable of handing from the app it came out of. (just look up watts drawn by the particular cpu... assume its all wasted energy) and compare to the watts drawn from the device you are connecting it to. If the power needed is way off from each other, then you will have a problem no matter what temp it runs at.

ok... maybe too much babbling but hopefully you may get some minor piece of useful info out of this..... post some more specifics and we can learn more....

[image: View Post]mello dude, on 21 September 2010 - 12:29 PM, said:

Wow, That would be way cool if you could figure that out. I'm really interested in seeing how this turns out. How is that thing powered?

I know my R/R is running at least 150 degrees. Really the whole under seat environment is hot, probably in the 140 F range. I have been thinking about a fan to get some air flow on the thing and force it over the R/R and exhaust it somewhere to the rear. I looked at ditching the passenger pegs and this would open up a nice area to fool with. The gears are turning...... :blink:

I think part of it is that there is really no where for the heat to go, the area is so enclosed.

Good luck



In my tests, with a PC fan on top of the fins of a gixxer1k RR, the temp results were always 10-12c higher than ambient temp.
Testing done with a Fluke multimeter with a remote temp wire, tip wedged in fins not blown by the fan.
Beck; the sticker has its amp load, mine is .200A (200mA). Yours says 12v 1.3watt, that's .108A draw (108mA) [amp conversion]
/edit:
CPU temps, normally, are in the 40-60c range, anything higher and it's a problem for my puny CPU, others can run higher.
mine runs 50-55c, at 56c the fan spins from 1,100 RPM to 2k RPM and up.
If you want to test yours get this free app. (SpeedFan), it shows temp and RPMS of all available points, including MB zones, CPUs and HDDs.

Here's someone else's results on a VFR.

Photos, pre and post surgery charging results (VFRD content)

[image: View Post]mello dude, on 21 September 2010 - 12:29 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Beck, on 21 September 2010 - 03:45 AM, said:

I've asked in related posts a couple of times here and I still have not gotten any feedback on this possible active cooling method for VFR RRs:
[

It's a "heat pipe" cooling system I found this by chance when someone near work was throwing away old computer equipment outside their business.
I tested it and it certainly gets the CPU mounting plate at the ends of the pipe cold. I've been looking at this type of cooling equipment for sometime already and finally I get this one for free, so I can't resist making an attempt to test this out. I'm not a computer expert, so I'm not sure if this equipment will make a dent in cooling the RR on my bike and help keep it from overheating under the tail fairing. I know CPUs get very hot too but are we looking at similar temps to the heat produced by RRs? I think I can make this thing fit under the tail faring somehow, but I won't find out till I start a winter project with it. and if someone here with experience with these heat pipes can give me an Idea if it might be worth the effort. Maybe I can even just omit the computer fan on it and stick the "radiator" portion in the airstream somehow??.

Beck
95 VFR


Wow, That would be way cool if you could figure that out. I'm really interested in seeing how this turns out. How is that thing powered?

I know my R/R is running at least 150 degrees. Really the whole under seat environment is hot, probably in the 140 F range. I have been thinking about a fan to get some air flow on the thing and force it over the R/R and exhaust it somewhere to the rear. I looked at ditching the passenger pegs and this would open up a nice area to fool with. The gears are turning...... :blink:

I think part of it is that there is really no where for the heat to go, the area is so enclosed.

Good luck

I just came across some articles about this heat pipe type of cooling equipment in the web and one called out a typical heat load from CPUs these days at 70 degrees C which translates to 158 degrees F, so it looks like the heat loads from CPUs are similar to what we are seeing from our RRs. The fan on the thing is just a regular large size computer fan that can be powered easily form the 12V system on the bike. What I found out too is that positioning/orientation of the heat pipe equipment is critical in some instances because you typically would want the heat source at the bottom of the assembly so the condensed cooling liquids go down in the pipe and the heated vaporized coolant go up towards the heat sink/radiator so it could condense again and go down to the heat source to cool it, so it's a continous closed "loop" inside the pipes that just works passively as the heat loads go up. The fan and radiator pulls the heat away from the pipes and into the air. I can see a little problem now with positioning and the radiator want to be above the RR. I was hoping the case was reversed so I can maybe position the radiator below the RR and maybe below the fender so it could be in the airstream and maybe dispense with the need of a fan.
I might have to buy an extra 4th gen plastic fender assembly to experiment on and cut up for possible locations for this thing......hmmmm...

Beck
95 VFR.

[image: View Post]VFRSuperfreak, on 21 September 2010 - 01:08 PM, said:

[image: View Post]mello dude, on 21 September 2010 - 12:29 PM, said:

Wow, That would be way cool if you could figure that out. I'm really interested in seeing how this turns out. How is that thing powered?

I know my R/R is running at least 150 degrees. Really the whole under seat environment is hot, probably in the 140 F range. I have been thinking about a fan to get some air flow on the thing and force it over the R/R and exhaust it somewhere to the rear. I looked at ditching the passenger pegs and this would open up a nice area to fool with. The gears are turning...... :blink:

I think part of it is that there is really no where for the heat to go, the area is so enclosed.

Good luck



In my tests, with a PC fan on top of the fins of a gixxer1k RR, the temp results were always 10-12c higher than ambient temp.
Testing done with a Fluke multimeter with a remote temp wire, tip wedged in fins not blown by the fan.
To the dude testing his PC fan; the sticker has its amp load, mine is .200A (200mA)
/edit:
CPU temps, normally, are in the 40-60c range, anything higher and it's a problem.
mine runs 50-55c, at 56c the fan spins from 1,100 RPM to 2k RPM and up.
If you want to test yours get this free app. (SpeedFan), it shows temp and RPMS of all available points, including MB zones, CPUs and HDDs.

Here's someone else's results.

Photos, pre and post surgery charging results (VFRD content)


Thanks for the info- btw the "someone elses results" lnk is blank.

I'm at the stage of just researching and think of what I want to do with this. Fan wise I am think about a fan forward of the R/R, stuffed in the tail panel and blowing from front to back, and provide somewhere for the air to go. It seem that a fan on top the R/R as is, would be just recirculating the hot air going nowhere. I hope this type scheme wil pull some of the heat from the underseat area too. Right now, the heat is cooking my ass.

Then there is the wiring side of it. When I finally dig into it, whatever I do has to be a massive overkill.

[image: View Post]Beck, on 21 September 2010 - 01:23 PM, said:

one called out a typical heat load from CPUs these days at 70 degrees C which translates to 158 degrees F, so it looks like the heat loads from CPUs are similar to what we are seeing from our RRs.
Like Yeeter mentioned, temperature means nothing it is all about the wattage, that why I mentioned the P4 CPUs which consume 100-150W on full load, that's close to what a RR has to dump at 5000rpm.

[image: View Post]Beck, on 21 September 2010 - 01:23 PM, said:

What I found out too is that positioning/orientation of the heat pipe equipment is critical in some instances because you typically would want the heat source at the bottom of the assembly so the condensed cooling liquids go down in the pipe and the heated vaporized coolant go up towards the heat sink/radiator so it could condense again and go down to the heat source to cool it,

Laptops have heatpipes too and they are all oriented horizontaly.

[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on 21 September 2010 - 05:33 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Beck, on 21 September 2010 - 01:23 PM, said:

one called out a typical heat load from CPUs these days at 70 degrees C which translates to 158 degrees F, so it looks like the heat loads from CPUs are similar to what we are seeing from our RRs.
Like Yeeter mentioned, temperature means nothing it is all about the wattage, that why I mentioned the P4 CPUs which consume 100-150W on full load, that's close to what a RR has to dump at 5000rpm.

[image: View Post]Beck, on 21 September 2010 - 01:23 PM, said:

What I found out too is that positioning/orientation of the heat pipe equipment is critical in some instances because you typically would want the heat source at the bottom of the assembly so the condensed cooling liquids go down in the pipe and the heated vaporized coolant go up towards the heat sink/radiator so it could condense again and go down to the heat source to cool it,

Laptops have heatpipes too and they are all oriented horizontaly.

I'll look further into the watts thing and see if I can figure if we're still in the ballpark.
I can still attempt a hrizontal install if you look at the pics, the pipes do offset slightly from the radiator to the CPU mounting plate so I can use that offset as a sort of ramping up condition . Tricky part with that though is the RR will now have to be mounted 90 degrees from it's normal position on the bike.

Beck
95 VFR

[image: View Post]mello dude, on 21 September 2010 - 01:32 PM, said:

Thanks for the info- btw the "someone elses results" lnk is blank.

I'm at the stage of just researching and think of what I want to do with this. Fan wise I am think about a fan forward of the R/R, stuffed in the tail panel and blowing from front to back, and provide somewhere for the air to go. It seem that a fan on top the R/R as is, would be just recirculating the hot air going nowhere. I hope this type scheme wil pull some of the heat from the underseat area too. Right now, the heat is cooking my ass.

Then there is the wiring side of it. When I finally dig into it, whatever I do has to be a massive overkill.


Sorry, seems some coding was dropped/mangled, here's the correct one.

http://www.one-ring....q/reg-rect.html

i have used computer cooling fans on all 3 vfr and have never had the reg fail yet. dont know if u will have the room for the pipe set up but if it fitts i would use it and pick up the power feed from the tail lights so it come on as soon as u turn the key.http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/fing02.gif

dQ/dt = Q = h * A( T_ambient - T(t)) = - h * A * Delta T(t)

..hmm, brings back memories...

I bet if you run the R/R to under the passenger seat you'll have room to mount it horizontally

Heat pipes do not always need gravity feed (pool boilers typically do). Sometimes there is a 'wick' inside whereby capillary action can achieve the desired circulation. This one.... likely needs gravity, but you cant be sure (many of the PC's now days have the motherboard mounted vertically, such that a cooling sink is also vertical).

There is no substitute for a supply of clean, cool air as an ambient dump. If you dont have this, you dont have a chance. (in theory you could calculate the ambient air temp rise as a function of air flow mass).

You can always water cool it. Just put a little recirc pump on a plate that mounts to the top (this heatpipe could be modified to recirc water instead)..... sounding a lot like an engine radiator isnt it?

Yep, satellites use heat pipes all the time. They are the wick type.

I'd be concerned about the temperatures and powers it was designed for differing from the R/R values.

How about fan cooling the R/R, but mounting the heat pipe anyway, just for bling value? :laughing6-hehe:

Glenn

[image: View Post]Yeeter, on 22 September 2010 - 10:45 AM, said:

Heat pipes do not always need gravity feed (pool boilers typically do). Sometimes there is a 'wick' inside whereby capillary action can achieve the desired circulation. This one.... likely needs gravity, but you cant be sure (many of the PC's now days have the motherboard mounted vertically, such that a cooling sink is also vertical).

There is no substitute for a supply of clean, cool air as an ambient dump. If you dont have this, you dont have a chance. (in theory you could calculate the ambient air temp rise as a function of air flow mass).

You can always water cool it. Just put a little recirc pump on a plate that mounts to the top (this heatpipe could be modified to recirc water instead)..... sounding a lot like an engine radiator isnt it?

[image: View Post]rdguy, on 22 September 2010 - 11:22 AM, said:

How about fan cooling the R/R, but mounting the heat pipe anyway, just for bling value? :laughing6-hehe:

Glenn



yeah but you need to polish them pipes and repost a picture; they look kinda dull in the picture.
:laughing6-hehe: